Latest / Identity at the Center / #243 - Authenticate 2023: UX with Ori Eisen of Trusona

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#243 - Authenticate 2023: UX with Ori Eisen of Trusona · Identity at the Center

0:05
This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with
0:10
IAM, this is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and
0:17
Jeff Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the
0:23
Center podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
0:25
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff.
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How are you? Not so bad.
0:28
How are you? I'm doing fantastic.
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Hey, I got to meet a lot of people here at the Authenticate
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2023 conference. A lot of people are just finding
0:38
out about the podcast. Amazing.
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And well, yeah. Amazing, but not shocking, I
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don't think. No, I'm not sure.
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We don't advertise. We don't.
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It's two man show, yeah. And I keep thinking back to how
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we started. Very humble, very humble
0:51
beginnings, very humble. Let's record this conversation
0:55
and see if anybody listens. And now here we are like the mid
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two 40s and you know, still humming along.
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What do you think? Yeah, it's amazing how far we've
1:03
come along. But yeah, for the love of the
1:05
game, that's how I look at it. Yeah, I think what has been
1:09
really great is just, you know, this is not our day job, right?
1:12
We don't. Not by a long shot.
1:14
Not by a long shot, right? It's.
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Not sometimes. It feels like it, but it is not.
1:17
Yeah, but we have a very good employer who's been willing to
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bankroll us being out here. I think, you know, yes, we also
1:26
had help from the Fido conference, Fido Alliance in
1:29
terms of, you know, we had a great room, we didn't have to
1:32
pay for it and we had passes to the conference.
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But you know, our RSM employer had to pick up the tabs so that
1:43
we could travel here and. Eat Eating is very important,
1:47
right? So I mean it.
1:49
It's very much appreciated by both of us, the contribution
1:53
that they've made to the podcast and to really to the listening
1:57
audience to be able to hear all these, all the content that
2:00
we've put out. Yeah.
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And we don't do commercials. So that's about as far as we'll
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take it, but. Yeah.
2:05
Hire hire Jim and I to do identity stuff for you.
2:08
Thanks, why don't? We start our conversation with a
2:15
talk about Pass keys. Because I want to introduce our
2:17
guests and get right into this, I want to introduce Ori Eisen.
2:22
He is a founder and CEO at Trusona.
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Welcome to the show, Ori. Thank you for having me, the two
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Jays. Well, thanks for taking the
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time. You literally just fell off of a
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plane and. Came over here and now we're
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having this conversation. I guess for I've.
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I've, I feel like I've seen and heard you speak so many times
2:41
over the last really decade since I've been attending
2:45
identity conferences. And one, you're a natural.
2:48
Two, I want to understand what your identity origin story is
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because whatever we have someone on for the first time, you know,
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why are you the way you are? Comes up.
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Why are you an identity? Is it something that you chose
3:01
or did it choose you? Wonderful.
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I'm really thankful for being here.
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I know you started with this is not your day job, but you are
3:11
the cool Identity Podcast. Let me just say this, and I had
3:14
it on my To Do List. I'm not joking.
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And there's somebody on my team said like, well, only the best
3:19
people can get on the show. And I said, like, well, let me
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see if they'll have me. So first of all, thank you for
3:23
that. We said no a couple times and
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this again OK or fine. No payments was made to these
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guys to be on this show. So thank you.
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First and foremost, it is important for you to tell the
3:34
story of identity because it's kind of this like ugly
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stepdaughter of the industry. I mean people know
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cybersecurity, people know fraud, people know, you know a
3:44
MLKYC these things. But identity is like who's an
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identity And all of a sudden you see every year that goes by
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identity. And I'm not just saying it is a
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plug is at the centre, it's just that it was.
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Invisible. Just like you don't think about
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air because it's there all the time.
3:59
You don't think about electricity because it's there,
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or water identity is always there.
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But just like no one's thinking about it until you need to think
4:06
about. It I I always struggle with
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people asking me what do you do? And it's like, OK, well I work
4:14
in identity or you know, what does that mean?
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Actually, the guy at dinner the other night asked us what we
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did. And so we work in identity and
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it's like, oh, you guys write coders.
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I'm like, no, I'm more like, I tell people what to do.
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How do you describe what you do to people who are not in the
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identity world? I'll tell you what I tell my
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mom, and she ends up telling all of her friends he's in
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computers, which is just what people see you do.
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You work at Best Buy. I tell people for the longest
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time since Trisona started that. I'm about to get rid of
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passwords. And even now on the flight here,
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people sit next to me and say like, oh, I love you.
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And that's a visceral, emotional response to we can do without
4:58
password. Sure, I say like, but wait, but
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the systems underneath it, which I can't go into the details
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because then they gloss out. Then when you say I am, that's
5:06
it, you lost them. I don't go into that detail.
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Just give them the high level. Here's the benefit.
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Here's what will happen in your life as a result of the identity
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industry coming together. And then people say there's a
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show about that, like there's a conference about that isn't like
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not just one, like volcanoes or something like that.
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So I'll start with the origin story because it would literally
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land us all the way to today. I've been in fraud and financial
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fraud for the past 22 years. I started a company a year
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before PayPal that was the first to move money on the Internet.
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I was the first start up to be shut down by Visa because.
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We didn't know at the time that IP addresses in Nigeria and
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credit card in New York City don't really go together, but we
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learnt really, really quick and even if you go back to 19981999,
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you realize identity was there all the time.
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It's just we never called it that.
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We called it credit card fraud. But if you say why is there a
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credit card? Because I don't know who is on
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the other end and when you ask who.
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That's an identity question right there.
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So I kind of cut my chops in the identity world of online fraud
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and credit card. I had a fantastic career in
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banking and later on I was the head of frisk at American
6:22
Express on the issuing side. But I never thought in those
6:26
days that I mean identity, even though now when you look back,
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you're like you've always been there.
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It's just that it has so many different sides, like the
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elephant one holds the trunk, one holds the tail, one hold.
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Everybody thinks it's different. But no, no, no.
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It is all about. Who is on the other end?
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I use the cartoon that you probably know from The New
6:44
Yorker, which is about to be 28 years old now, with the two
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dogs, no one knows on the Internet.
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You're a dog, right? That's an identity story.
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But again, we're not thinking about it naturally this way.
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So when I started my third startup called The 41st
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Parameter, which was known as a fraud detection company online
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e-commerce stuff. Again, not the word identity.
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If you really dig inside and you see, it was all about saying,
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does this transaction belong to this person?
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Again, identity was always there, but I never thought about
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it in that context. So after the company was
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acquired, I spent a year around the world with Frank Abigail
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kind of promoting the idea and then I was in between exits,
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which is code word two. I didn't know what I wanted to
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do when I grow up. So in 2014, I found myself for
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the first time, kind of not doing, you know, fraud and risk
7:38
management and that stuff. And I went back to my investors
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at Kleiner Perkins and I said I want to do another startup and
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say whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
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You just padded your wallet with all the money you can ever
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imagine. You probably will be tired and
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sick after three months of doing whatever it is you're going to
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do and you're going to leave us. On a lurch, I'm like, what are
8:00
you guys talking about? So, like, you are the second
8:02
time success. We don't found those guys
8:05
because we know what happened to you guys.
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I'm like, are you serious? They said yes.
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I said like, well, how do I ever undo this?
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They said go and have an existential crisis.
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I'm not kidding. That's what Randy told me.
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That was the advice you received.
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Yes, and we will know if you had it or not and come back to us
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when you find a problem you really care about.
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And you want to solve and you will do even if no one pays you
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to do it. I'm like, so it took me 4
8:33
months. Don't ask silly questions, but I
8:36
did go to a coffee shop every day to think about what I want
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to do. And you know, in my life
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journey, every day I offered the coffee shop guys, hey, you know,
8:44
you can make more money if you do this and you know you'll get
8:47
more customers if you advertise there.
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Eventually I became a partner in that coffee shop, and eventually
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I owned that coffee shop. In the four months that I was
8:55
looking for something to do. But one day was the moment where
9:00
this guy, who's by the way, still there for the last nine
9:03
years he was there today, comes and reads his newspaper every
9:07
single day in that coffee shop. And I was observing him and one
9:11
day just clicked and dawned on me.
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And I said to him, Mark, I'm not here to read the headlines.
9:17
I'm here to make the headlines. I can't be sitting here with you
9:21
in this coffee shop and just. I have to go do something in the
9:24
world, like, I felt like, what am I doing?
9:27
So I called Ted Schlein, who invested in me in the last
9:30
company. I said, like Ted, let me tell
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you what we need to do. We need to take that cartoon
9:35
with the two dogs. We need to go solve it.
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It's like, yeah, yeah, but that's too big of a problem to
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solve. You need like a whole new
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Internet. I said, let me write a white
9:42
paper about that. So I spend 2 weeks and I write a
9:47
white paper that you can go download on our website called
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I2. Which is a reimagination of all
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the sickness, all the issues we had in I-1, which is the current
9:56
Internet. And let me just sum it up for
9:58
you. It's the identity that is
10:00
broken. We don't know who is on the
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other end. So when we started this company,
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we said the key is to know the true persona of who's on the
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other end. And now you know why we're
10:12
called True Sona. But that was the pivotal moment
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to say. We have to fix this.
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Now I will tell you, just for the record, because I don't want
10:19
to be a revisionist, even the biggest name and I'm going to
10:23
drop a name because I prepared for this podcast for six months.
10:27
John Doerr, if you hear this, you were with me in the room
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where you looked at me and I looked at you and said, wait a
10:31
second, are you going to rewrite the TCPIP protocol?
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I said yes. If that's what it means to fix
10:37
this, then yes, I want to leave a better Internet for my kids.
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The Internet is the sum of our ambition as a as humans.
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And if we're not taking care of it, you know who's going to own
10:47
it? The spammers, which is now 97%
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of all emails are spam. They're pause for effect this
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phishing emails. I mean, it is just insanity
10:58
what's happening there. So if we don't stop to fix this
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like from the root a root canal job, let me tell you it, it let
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me retire on an island and really do nothing and just watch
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this fall. But I said as long as I have any
11:10
energy in me, and I still do, I hope.
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I want to go fix this problem and that's how true Sona was
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born and I found myself in the identity space.
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So did it pick you or did you pick it?
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It picked me there's no choice. I'm not going to mince words.
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I did not make the correlation between everything that led to
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that moment, that in every single job, in every single
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moment, in every single cracked case we had.
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Identity was always there as the broken piece.
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And if you want to go fix it, you have to start there.
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The rest really doesn't matter. And I'll just give you one word.
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We did not start with password lists and and if you don't mind,
11:52
ask me how we got here, but we started with the world's most
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secure and insured by an A+ rated insurance company of
12:01
$1,000,000 per login. If we're wrong because
12:04
everybody, if you go to the RSA show, says we're the best, how
12:07
can you tell as a buyer who's the best?
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Can you? No, all these marketing guys say
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we're the best, we're the best. There's no way to know.
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I said like, what will be the ultimate litmus test to You're
12:17
the best that an insurance company is willing to back it.
12:19
Put your money where your mouth is.
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Exactly. So I told Kleiner Perkins, we
12:22
are going to do that. And like, oh, crazy Israeli guy,
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I'm like, I don't care because otherwise you you want me to be
12:28
put on the plaster of all 9000 companies in cybersecurity to
12:32
say I'm better than them? How can I possibly rise above
12:34
the noise if we don't do this? And that's how Trusona started.
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It's very quickly we realized people don't want security
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because we made the product that does this.
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But they say no, but I don't want to carry the token, no, I
12:45
don't want to do identity proofing in person.
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And said guys, you don't want security.
12:49
What you really, really want is convenience.
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And that's how we ended up in the past for Less universe.
12:57
So tell me about true Sona and your role as CEO.
13:00
There two-part question for those people who aren't familiar
13:03
with True Sona. Just give us kind of the
13:05
elevator pitch of. Of, you know, the the problems
13:08
that you guys look to solve and solutions you bring.
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And then two, what does the CEO of an identity company do?
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I'll start to the second part because it's easy worry.
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Now let me answer the first part.
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The elevator pitch today is such that it took years to get the
13:29
Fido organization to get critical mass.
13:34
It took more years to defocus from just hardware based APIs to
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what if I don't want to use hardware?
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What if I want to use my phone? And that's kind of the second
13:44
evolution. And the biggest blessing the
13:47
world has seen was last June 6th, 2022 is when Apple
13:51
announces we're joining that that that.
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That is how Trasona came to have a pitch that says.
13:59
Now that all the ducks are aligned, because we've helped
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and we'll talk about how we helped and in what way because
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there was a lot of help. Now it's the job of the
14:08
implementers. They're relying parties, RPS.
14:10
If you're in the hood to actually take the glove, pick it
14:14
up, go to your boss. I'm going to talk about that
14:16
because getting budgets and approval is where things are
14:19
getting stuck now and say it is no longer a dream, it is no
14:23
longer tomorrow it is. Now, and there's a race, and
14:27
we'll talk about maybe some of the biggest names already
14:29
implemented and announced it. That's it.
14:31
If you did not realise that password less is now the future,
14:34
then let me tell you, I don't know where under which rock,
14:37
which digital Rock You live, but now Trisona is.
14:41
So here's the pitch. We are helping companies that
14:44
want to implement passkeys right the first time.
14:49
Let me explain. Yes, it's a standard, it's an
14:51
API. You can say I can do this
14:53
myself. Let me just clap.
14:55
I hope you hear that OK, but unfortunately some of the
14:58
biggest brands have taken 16 iterations to get there because
15:03
it is not obvious. Why?
15:04
Because it's never been done before.
15:06
It is unlike passwords that you have a million examples from all
15:10
over the world of what words to use, what size buttons.
15:13
This has never been done before. So go explain to my mom, God
15:16
help you what passkeys are and why does she need them.
15:21
That was a silence for all the all the passwords I just killed
15:23
with this one sentence. No, I mean, you can't blame
15:29
people for being skeptical. People have been pontificating
15:33
on the end of the password for a long time, and it's still here.
15:39
I say this is the year of the passkey for sure.
15:42
It makes total sense. We've got all the major platform
15:47
device platforms behind this. Yes, this is probably real.
15:56
It's probably going to happen this time.
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But I didn't get this in her podcast as I'll make Jeff happy.
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Thousands of subscribers. It's more than that, but it's a
16:07
lot of subscribers. Not everybody understands what
16:10
pesky's are. So take it down to the level,
16:13
maybe not to the level that your mom's going to understand it,
16:16
but people with, you know, some techie background maybe.
16:20
But try to make it, you know, easy to understand.
16:24
I did not forget to answer the question about what do I do as a
16:26
CEO? I'll get there.
16:27
You said worry. But I said worry is a very, very
16:30
good centre point because I worry that the world as a whole,
16:34
our industry will not move fast enough and every day we don't
16:38
make a move in this direction. We're just losing another cyber
16:41
battle which I'm just tired after being in this industry for
16:44
so long. This industry means from the
16:45
beginning of my career. I just want to see it in my
16:49
lifetime. Yes, I said it.
16:50
And I want my kids to have a better Internet than we all got
16:53
because ours is like a block of Swiss cheese.
16:56
It's full of holes there, I said it.
16:59
So let me explain passkeys and then I want to explain what I
17:02
said before, why people even need help from companies like
17:05
Trusona, because otherwise it's an API know.
17:08
AP is passkeys are a replacement for passwords now.
17:16
But before I explain what it does, let's ask ourselves, well,
17:18
why are passwords bad? Why do they need to be expunged?
17:22
We lived with them for so long, right?
17:24
And they're free. Why do I need to do anything
17:27
different? Free like a puppy.
17:29
Free like a puppy. There are three reasons.
17:32
The 1st is until passkeys existed, No one can answer this
17:39
simple question. Do you know how many people are
17:41
getting stuck? The first time they're trying to
17:44
login with username and password because until you have a second
17:48
door called passwordless door, you couldn't compare the two.
17:51
There was just one thing. The moment we started our UX
17:55
research we found out an interesting #59% of people who
18:00
are trying to login with the username password you gave them
18:03
that was free are not getting through now.
18:07
Some give up and go do something else, some give up, go to a
18:10
competitor and some. Take a journey called password
18:15
reset. Let me explain what happens to
18:18
those people. They are not fans of the brand.
18:21
It might cost you now an SMSOTP to get them back in.
18:25
OK, I lied. It might cost you a phone call
18:27
to get them back in. And all of a sudden you realize
18:30
when you analyse your call centre logs 30 some percent of
18:33
all calls are about account lockouts.
18:36
So the first reason to get rid of passwords is.
18:38
They are a failure point in the very moment you want your
18:41
customers to come in and do something.
18:43
Look at their healthcare records, log into a bank, buy
18:47
something or bet online. That was a plug for.
18:51
The second reason why I want to get rid of passwords, which is
18:54
why passkis were invented, is phishing.
18:58
All those emails that ask my mom and other people, please give me
19:01
your account and she tells me, but it came from my bank.
19:04
It has the logo and you told me the Internet is good, right?
19:07
I mean, I mean those conversations.
19:08
So I can see how people who didn't grow up online, it's not
19:11
obvious to them that this is not a good e-mail.
19:13
So if you set the password, Not that I didn't say how complex it
19:17
is, because we'll make a point today on this podcast that it
19:20
does not matter how long the password is anymore.
19:23
Let me say it again. Could be 30 characters upper,
19:26
lower. Who cares if I'm giving it away
19:28
to the attacker? Does it matter how long it is If
19:31
it's being stolen from a database to decentralized, does
19:34
it matter how long it is? No.
19:35
Stop doing it to people. It it it doesn't work.
19:38
If it worked, we wouldn't be here today recording at the
19:41
Authenticate Show. It's that simple.
19:44
We would have gone to 30 character passwords 20 years ago
19:47
and the problem would have been solved.
19:49
So I'm going to ask you a really hard question, or I really do
19:52
think this is a hard question. Please.
19:54
OK, so Google, Microsoft, Apple support, Fido support, Fast pass
20:01
keys. Are they doing this other the
20:04
goodness of their own heart? Are they trying to become the
20:08
IDP of choice or is there some other motivation?
20:14
I will answer your question. It is not a hard question.
20:18
I'm not beholden to anybody. So let I'll give you my opinion.
20:21
If I'm right or wrong, that's a different question.
20:23
But let me tell you what I think is going on based on some data.
20:26
Let's start with Google. Do you know that Google is free?
20:31
Like when you use Gmail and all them searches, Right, It's free.
20:35
But do you know that people forget their password to Gmail
20:38
and then they need to go through that other door?
20:40
I called account reset. Do you know how much money
20:44
Google spends a year on SMSOTP in that operation?
20:49
Any guesses? How's $100 million a year for
20:52
you? So interesting you see you
20:54
thinking this is a cosplay first, among other things.
20:58
Among other things. This is a pure why are we paying
21:02
so much for account recent? There is a problem, like if you
21:05
remember the six Sigma days of analyzing where's the problem in
21:08
the business and TQM and all those things.
21:11
This is a one-on-one of like wait a second, so many people
21:14
are being trapped in this door we've invented and it's costing
21:18
us money. So I just want to maybe Google's
21:20
number is astronomical because they have billions of users, but
21:23
if you look in your own business, however many users you
21:26
have, you have the same problem. It's just small enough that you
21:29
didn't think about it. So that's one.
21:33
The second I want to be a little crisper, There's IAM and there's
21:38
CIAM. Let's just talk about it for the
21:40
listeners. Google is an Apple and Microsoft
21:44
consumer like think Xbox are in the CIAM world which is C for
21:48
consumer which is very different than IAM world which is you
21:52
know, your login at work. So I'm not going to answer your
21:55
question. I do think that it's already
21:58
beyond one to be the IDP for consumers they are and the proof
22:03
is very simple. Many websites today that you go
22:08
to and try to login already have now a pop up that asks do you
22:12
just want to use the Google credential Now no one's talking
22:15
about how it works and the cookies and how.
22:17
Let's put that aside. But I do think we are in a kind
22:22
of 1-2 punch mode right now. They can make username and
22:25
cookie to let you in and that totally makes sense with
22:29
session, you know, longevity and all that.
22:32
But if you ask me, there is no reason for them not to replace
22:35
that very mechanism with pass keys.
22:39
And they've just turned the Internet password list just by
22:41
taking all the username and passwords.
22:45
They already have an in the back end replacing it as as we go.
22:49
I think, I don't know anything, but I think that's the end game.
22:52
It makes total sense. And then they become the SSO of
22:55
the Internet. Now they're friends at Apple and
22:57
Microsoft probably have similar plans.
22:59
And you know, I'm a customer of Apple and Google and Microsoft,
23:02
right? So I don't think there's going
23:03
to be just one. But yes, I do think Google is
23:06
making an amazing move in the CIAM world, and there's no
23:10
reason for them not to be here in this conference to make sure
23:14
that the standard goes where it need to go.
23:16
I think you're saying there's benefit for them.
23:19
But the real one who benefits is the Internet.
23:22
It's kind of getting to that vision of fixing the broken
23:25
Internet that you're talking about.
23:27
I do think that. But again, corporations make
23:30
money. I love Google.
23:31
I don't say anything. Nothing wrong with making money.
23:34
There's nothing wrong as long as you use it for the right reasons
23:37
and you don't do any evil with it.
23:38
We all know that. But I do think they're sitting
23:41
on the exact right data to become that SSO slash IDP for
23:47
the Internet. Bring that up because I think
23:50
about this as social login terms.
23:53
Been around for a while and I think everybody probably has
23:57
developed with their preferences for login with X depending on
24:04
age. Industry interest, you measure
24:08
things, right? Some people, like I log in
24:10
everything with Facebook and other people are like, there's
24:12
no way in hell you'd catch me log in with Facebook to
24:14
anything, right? I personally use a lot of login
24:17
by Google because I don't want to have to remember which
24:20
service did I use for what and and things like that.
24:23
So I find it interesting that we're setting the stage that
24:25
it's almost like we're having that same, you know, social
24:29
login of choice question. Again, what I would like to see
24:32
in this space is. Being able to be more mobile
24:37
with things like pass keys. You know I have multiple pass
24:40
keys that I've set up across Mac, iOS, Windows, Google,
24:45
etcetera at some point and I think this is something that's
24:49
being worked on by folks is the transportation of those keys I
24:54
cloud and the key chain is is 1 method of it.
24:56
Microsoft has their version of it and Google has their version
24:58
of it. But what happens when you want
25:01
to shift across ecosystems? And I think that's an area that
25:04
still requires some thought and interoperability.
25:07
And a while back someone came up to me from LastPass at a
25:12
conference. It was actually authenticate 2
25:14
years or three years ago. And I've told the story before,
25:17
but I'll say it again, they came up and they talked about, you
25:20
know, what's the role of a password manager, you know, if
25:23
we're moving away from passwords.
25:25
And I didn't see the badge, I didn't know who they were,
25:27
right. And I was like, well, I don't
25:29
really know if I see. A role for a password manager,
25:32
because if we don't have passwords, what is it you're
25:35
putting in your password manager?
25:37
And it took me a little while, but now I started to think about
25:40
it. I was like, Oh well, maybe they
25:42
are the glue that lets people shift from 1 ecosystem to
25:47
another. Yeah, I'm wondering if, if you
25:49
think something similar or or if I'm off on that.
25:52
Yeah, no, I don't think you're off.
25:54
But again, I am a straight shooter.
25:56
I'm just going to say it like it is.
25:58
I think the good news is that we have the top three browser
26:01
manufacturers at the table. It took, it took seven years.
26:07
But the bad news is that we have the top three browser
26:09
manufacturers at table. They can't agree on anything.
26:12
So if they really want a better Internet, which is a different
26:17
question, do they do they want to have a better walled garden
26:21
for themselves? Do you see that difference?
26:23
Then there should be a right to move my pass keys from anywhere
26:27
to anywhere, just like the banking industry already has
26:30
open banking. It has to be part, because
26:33
otherwise you're just making me get stickier and stickier
26:36
somewhere and I can't move and I don't know that that's a better
26:39
Internet for anybody. I am not sure that necessarily
26:44
the password keepers should only be relegated to the
26:48
intergalactic moves because they do have a role, let me say it,
26:52
which is storing the private keys.
26:55
Now I know it goes on the secure enclave, blah blah blah.
26:57
I I know how the technology works and you don't really need
27:01
them. But I hope this will be a good
27:03
segue to why I think UX is the key to making this really really
27:09
work for people all the way to my mom.
27:11
Because if the UX will be snazzy, easy and understandable,
27:15
we now have a shot of having the problem of multi platform
27:20
migration. It's even going to be a problem
27:24
right now. I worry back to what I do is if
27:28
we don't give the UX enough, almost like be a first violin
27:33
for a long while it has been a third violin or none for a
27:37
while. If we don't switch from the tech
27:40
to the UX, we will end up with an amazing dream that had all
27:46
the stars aligned but without the execution that will actually
27:49
take the world by storm. My job is to make sure the world
27:53
will be taken by storm and do whatever we can to do it.
27:56
But I don't want to fool you. We're not there yet because of
27:59
the doubt and is it the year? And I'll wait until somebody
28:02
else does it. There's a lot of people who are
28:03
thinking they still need to sit on their hands and and wait.
28:07
And I'm saying no, no, no, start now so we can easily get the
28:09
kinks out of the system. So then you can go copy each
28:12
other and we will be on our way. So I'm glad you mentioned UX.
28:16
So you're real pros pro. Thanks for helping me set that
28:18
up. We talked with Kevin Goldman
28:21
from your company last year at the same conference and he's
28:25
invested a lot of time being part of Fido's UX committee.
28:30
You just talked about the importance of that usability
28:35
when it comes to these sorts of things.
28:38
Tell me more about that. I want to set the record
28:39
straight. So Kevin, hi.
28:43
In 2019, the Fido folks met in Lisbon and that's the year.
28:52
It was four years ago that I as CEO saw that if we don't change
28:56
something now and just let the techies run the world.
29:00
And trust me, it was after a few pause for effect skirmishes
29:05
between me and lovely people like Dave Turner, which I love,
29:10
who helped me understand there's such zealots for security around
29:16
the table that even an iota off centre is not acceptable.
29:20
And I said guys, then you're just going to have techie people
29:23
in the admin department using don't want to say which hardware
29:27
provider it it doesn't matter. That's what this effort is going
29:31
to be. It is not going to be for
29:34
everyone I meet on a plane and telling them when our journey to
29:36
get rid of password. Take a deep breath because
29:38
that's the truth. Now I will commend Andrew for
29:43
realizing that and allowing me to send Kevin.
29:47
Andrew Shakir, Andrew Shakir, yes, See, I was trying to give
29:51
him like that. Like Cher.
29:54
Like Cher? Exactly that Andrew to send
30:00
Kevin and Kevin and I worked on the presentation of Will.
30:03
What should we say? But I do want to say today, and
30:06
I saved it for this podcast. I moved this chess piece called
30:11
UX. And let me tell you, it did not
30:13
end well the first time. And Kevin, I'm sorry again, I'm
30:16
not going to say it publicly so every listener can hear it.
30:19
I know from you and I know from others, and I know from Abby
30:22
Barbier. And I've heard what happened
30:24
there. It was terrible.
30:27
People gave him the evil eye. He was booed off stage.
30:31
People looked at him walking in the conference, like, who the
30:33
hell are you talking to? Us.
30:34
What is this UX thing? We don't need it.
30:36
Go back to Arizona. I mean, I know it did not go
30:38
well, but if no one was brave enough to make that move, we
30:43
wouldn't be here today where Kevin is leading the UX work
30:47
stream, which Trusona basically shoved into the organization,
30:50
I'm sorry to say, because they didn't want to hear about it.
30:54
I'm not sure how you have a gap that large, given how important
30:59
usability is to everybody. Nobody wants to use a product
31:01
that sucks. I mean, that's just the way it
31:03
is if you were there in Lisbon four years ago.
31:07
That is not the party line it was Leave us alone.
31:12
We don't need UX. We have perfect security and all
31:15
I said like great, perfect security will be used by less
31:20
than 1% of the world. And if that's your objective,
31:22
great. But I don't want to have any
31:23
part of it. But if you want to take this
31:25
seriously, here are the things that are missing one UX.
31:29
And when you hear the word UX, which company in the world?
31:33
I'm not even saying from the three browser manufacturers,
31:35
which company in the world comes to mind?
31:37
Yes, that one in Cupertino. If they're not around the table
31:41
and if they're not adopting it, I'm telling you again, it will
31:43
not be a big thing. So all these things started
31:47
lining up and basically I told Kevin, go spend as much time as
31:50
you need on our dime because we're paying his salary.
31:54
You're paying his salary and if it's news for people, let them
31:58
know he is on our payroll spending a lot of time.
32:04
Ask Andrew Shakira how much time, Because if no one's going
32:08
to do that and get the discipline of UX, it's never
32:13
going to happen. So I'm happy to say that four
32:16
years later now, it's obvious it was not obvious, and I hope it
32:21
will keep being obvious because without this nothing big will
32:25
happen here. So you kind of triggered me here
32:28
because UI has been something that I feel has never gotten
32:34
enough credit. And this goes back to early
32:38
2000s when I first started to work on identity things.
32:41
And you know, that was one of my pain points, was the identity
32:46
interfaces were garbage. They were hard to use, didn't
32:51
make sense. And I'm going to get on a
32:54
soapbox here. I really think if you're
32:57
listening to this and you're in an identity program, you have an
33:00
identity product. Whatever it is, treat it like a
33:03
product. Because people really need to
33:06
understand and want to use your product or they're not going to
33:10
use it and they're going to find ways around it.
33:12
And, you know, maybe maybe it's they choose a different product,
33:15
maybe it's they do something insecure and harm your
33:19
organization because they don't like using your internal
33:21
product, whatever may be. So I get passionate about the UI
33:25
stuff because it just drives me crazy.
33:27
I saw what Apple did very early on and I was like, yes, like,
33:31
why can't we take that same model?
33:33
Do they do innovation? Yes, of course they do.
33:36
Are they the most innovative company in the world?
33:38
I would argue probably not. But they're really good at
33:42
taking a first draft and polishing it to almost
33:46
perfection. Everything is with purpose.
33:49
It's purposely designed. There is intention behind
33:52
things. And I think if we take that
33:53
mentality to not only just identity products, but to
33:56
programs, people, processes that are associated with it, you're
34:00
going to be have to be much better off going down the road.
34:03
I'll share with you this, when Trisona started, we had all the
34:07
money in the world from Climate Perkins.
34:09
And here we are going on a journey to design the world's
34:12
most secure authentication with $1,000,000 insurance.
34:15
So what do I do? I go reach out to a San
34:18
Francisco and product engineering design firm, the
34:22
same people who made the Fitbit, you know, like Frog design and
34:26
Ideal. There's new deal design.
34:27
Here's a plug for them. And I said, we need something
34:31
that looks like something that James Bond would carry it.
34:33
Because when you pull this thing out of your suitcase and use it,
34:37
people need to say, whoa, I want one of these.
34:39
Even if it's a status symbol. I don't even know what it does.
34:41
I just want one of these. So we go on a year in stealth
34:45
mode. And then through that journey
34:49
with those designers, first of all, I have learned a little bit
34:51
more about design thinking than I thought.
34:53
I knew what it was, but I didn't know what it was.
34:56
And then I realized, you know what?
34:57
To really be successful, I need somebody with those muscles and
35:00
sinews on this team. So I go back to the investor and
35:03
say I want to have a designer. They're like, Are you sure you
35:06
want that? I'm like, what do you mean?
35:07
It's like there's no security company with designers in them
35:09
and like, but why? It's like, because I won't say
35:11
what they said, it doesn't matter today, but they warned me
35:14
that designers see the world a certain way.
35:17
Admin and security people see it very differently.
35:22
Here's a joke for you only in the drug industry and in the
35:25
identity industry, they call the customers.
35:28
Users, there's our clip for the show.
35:31
OK And I said, wow, why do you think that is?
35:34
Because they see them as I'm an admin, you're a user, I'm smart,
35:38
you're dumb, I'm not responding to phishing.
35:39
You are an And if once you bring that consumery fluffy let's be
35:46
nice to people, all of a sudden you're going to have a dichotomy
35:49
that you you don't even imagine Mr. CEO.
35:51
And I said, like, good, I want it.
35:54
So I asked around who's the best designer we have here in the
35:57
town and said, like, everybody knows who that person is, but
36:00
you're never going to get him. I'm like, good, I want to know,
36:02
said oh, Kevin Goldman. I'm like, good.
36:05
I realized Kevin works at the company and I just sign up to do
36:09
a session with him, you know, a few days teach us how to learn
36:14
and speak in the language of designers.
36:16
So we go in, we do the so many days session with him and you
36:20
know, we're about to leave. But Kevin came to me and said to
36:23
me, you know, I've been doing this for a while.
36:25
I've seen a lot of CEOs and teams work together and like,
36:29
you really guys care about this. Like you're not here, like you
36:32
want your ideas to be implemented and whatever the
36:35
other engineers said, doesn't matter.
36:36
I'm like, yeah, of course. Like, if we don't get this
36:38
right, why did I just get out of retirement?
36:42
It's like, you're serious. I'm like, of course I'm serious.
36:44
Like, to him it was, I guess many other customers have lip
36:47
service. I don't know.
36:49
We ended up recruiting Kevin to be AC level executive at a
36:53
startup that does security and I'm now challenging the two.
36:57
JS go find me another company like that because then you'll
37:00
know we took it seriously. Now we took it seriously for
37:04
ourselves. First, I'm not going to lie
37:05
about that because we wanted to rise above, we wanted our app to
37:09
be Apple Esque. I'm not lying.
37:11
Go see our app in the App Store. Tell me if you've seen an app
37:14
like this. It is.
37:16
You know what? I'll tell you this, if you have
37:18
online go to WordPress, go see the Trasona plugin, and go to
37:24
the reviews. Tell me what the reviews say.
37:27
Only five star reviews. And how do you think we got
37:29
there? By chance?
37:31
No, by having UX as a third of the equation of what makes this
37:37
company tick. A third of our strategy is all
37:40
about UX. So we're I want to give you a
37:42
chance to say great things about the final alliance, but first
37:46
let me do my preamble. So you've made this large
37:50
investment to? Obviously give a bunch of
37:52
Kevin's time pay the all those travel expenses for him to be
37:59
here. But also just I mean you guys
38:01
are all in. I want I talked to Kurt Johnson
38:08
who's one of the with Beyond Identity.
38:10
He's out there one of the vendors on the in the actual
38:13
hall and he said, you know this isn't one of those conferences
38:17
that you do. Like raw business development,
38:20
like there's a bunch of, you know, quote UN quote,
38:23
prospective customers who are just hitting your booth up all
38:27
day and you get a bunch of leads.
38:29
It's like you have to kind of support what the Fido alliance
38:33
is doing. If you base your business on
38:34
this, you've got to invest. I want to know, being at that
38:39
investor level that you are, what is it about Fido Alliance
38:43
that makes it worth the investment that gives you
38:47
dividends? I love the question if you are
38:53
trying to be part of the password less revolution, which
38:56
I jokingly say I'm the unofficial leader of, just
39:00
because of the time spent and the money put in and the UX and
39:04
a lot of different things that should remain unknown.
39:08
You can't get there without banding with your brethren.
39:14
Maybe enemies is another or competitors because it is so
39:19
large, it's a monumental task and no one company can do it,
39:24
not even Apple. So participating in helping Fido
39:29
be successful. You know how they say all boats
39:32
rise on a tide? Fido is our tide now.
39:36
It wasn't perfect at first, as I said before, and in the origin
39:40
story of Fido was very much about hardware and being
39:43
perfect, which I love. But that will not solve the
39:47
problem for more mere mere mortals I guess.
39:50
So if you want to be I don't care who you are, you have to
39:55
have Fido now and passkeys as part of a table stakes first
39:59
class citizen entity. Even if you're a password vault,
40:04
you know why? Because you'll need to store
40:05
them, make it easy to use, not argue with the browsers, and be
40:09
cross galactic later on, right? But there's no more going back.
40:14
If anybody's still thinking, Oh yeah, this is a fad.
40:17
No, no, no, this is not a fad. This is happening.
40:20
And let me just rattle some names.
40:21
You can go see them on passkeys dot Directory, eBay and Intuit
40:25
and Kayak and Robin Hood and Microsoft and Google and Apple
40:29
and Trusona and all these companies are not crazy Tiktok
40:35
just they already have put it into their main business.
40:40
Now I'm not saying tomorrow everybody's jumps jumping on it.
40:42
I didn't say that but thank God not knocking on the table to
40:47
make noise for the Microsoft. Thank God we now have it so we
40:51
can begin. Now the priming to the UX term
40:54
and the marketing and the cajoling of hey, I'll give you a
40:58
discount if you get the password because I don't have to deal
41:01
with your Ato account takeover if you know what I want because
41:04
I'm an airline and I'm tired of you calling me and says where
41:06
are my miles. Well, are you still using a
41:07
password? That is password?
41:09
Sorry, if you upgrade to pass keys, I will not have to deal
41:13
with you or be in a conversations and you won't like
41:16
let me give you peanuts, 2 sacks of peanuts on your next slide.
41:20
Sorry, I just if you do this, that is the next thing in this
41:24
evolution. But now we have a technology
41:26
that is tested, vetted on 4 billion devices.
41:29
There's no excuse for you as an implementer to sit on your
41:32
hands. Get started.
41:34
If I get the two sacks of peanuts, can I also have the
41:36
whole can of soda? No, that is.
41:39
You're crazy. No, that's going to be $5.
41:41
That's for closers. What you just described sounds
41:45
very similar to what we see in the finance industry where oh,
41:49
if you sign up for auto pay, there's a discount, right?
41:53
I'll pick on T-Mobile just because I use T-Mobile and I get
41:56
$5 off my bill if I use auto draft right to pay my bill
42:00
automatically what you just described.
42:03
Sounded very similar to that. I'm going to give you a chance.
42:06
Is that what you meant or do you really see businesses shifting
42:12
financial either incentive or other carrots to say hey, if
42:17
you're a pass key user theoretically you are lower cost
42:21
to us to do business with. Therefore we can pass some of
42:24
that savings on to you in some way.
42:27
I meant that let's give some examples.
42:29
So we're very clear. This is not the mince word show
42:31
I told this is a say it like it is show, say that I'm one of the
42:36
largest credit card companies in the country.
42:38
OK. I now have, because I've
42:40
operated for 30 years, all my numbers in front of me.
42:43
I know what an average cost of acquisition is.
42:46
I have the cost of how many times you're calling me, how
42:50
many times you are upset with me, how many times do I need to
42:54
refund you because you did something silly and how many
42:56
times I need to refund you because you didn't do anything.
42:58
I am just there's right and there's cost.
43:01
OK. If you take 81% of all the costs
43:05
that are related to fraud, 81% and you dig, dig, dig, dig, dig,
43:09
you know ask for five whys. You know what the answer is.
43:12
I won't say identity because this is the identity at the
43:15
centre show but it's passwords which is a very good proxy to
43:19
your identity online is protected by a key and the key
43:23
is a static key called a password.
43:24
Like I'm just going down 9 levels and you see it's there.
43:27
It's right there. And now is a banker with grubby
43:31
hands that wants to pay less. I'm not joking.
43:33
This is how this works. And I just want to have less
43:37
phone calls from you. What do I need to do?
43:41
I look at all the calls and they say, wow, 30 of them are about
43:43
account loss and another two are about is this fraud on my
43:46
statement? Right.
43:47
So I can remove 5 calls. By the way, that's 18 bucks a
43:50
pop if you want much that cost. Wait a second.
43:54
So I'm going to get 60 bucks. Can Ioffer you 10 bucks off
43:58
something, even if it's a coupon, something that you, but
44:01
you will feel you're getting something?
44:02
Yes, I can get you to do whatever I want if it makes
44:06
financial sense, just like I don't need to print your
44:09
statement again. That costs money, you know?
44:10
And then postage and whatever. There is a cost, guys.
44:14
It is known and attributable. It's not a fantasy thing that
44:18
you can now trade with me to say you want me to do what you want.
44:21
And by the way, it's good for me too.
44:24
Let's trade. Every consumer does this as we
44:26
speak. I think it's just a matter of
44:29
how big is your problem to make this go away.
44:32
So where are we at when it comes to the life cycle for passwords
44:38
in this industry? We we have alluded to this
44:40
through the conversation is like, yeah, it feels like it's
44:42
been dying for 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, right.
44:45
Nobody likes it And everybody's like, yeah, we want to get rid
44:48
of it. But I keep hearing that every
44:50
year I'm filled with optimism. I'm the eternal optimist that
44:54
hey, we've got pass keys, it's got it's having a real moment.
44:57
In the sun. You know, I think still it is
45:00
very much in the domain of techies and identity people who
45:04
are getting it. But then you have an
45:06
announcement like what Google made last week.
45:08
Pass keys by default. Huge.
45:10
Huge. Yeah.
45:11
So where are we at from the death of the password?
45:14
How far? When is the password going to
45:16
die? I'm going to ask that question
45:17
again. I'm going to start from the end
45:20
and say passwords are probably not going to die in the way you
45:23
think, where one day they just, they're not there.
45:26
And I want to, I want to be very, very precise about what
45:29
I'm saying, where passwords probably will stay for another
45:32
50 years because they're harmless there.
45:36
They don't cause issues that it's not what we need to fix.
45:39
And it's usually within legacy systems, in large corporations
45:42
of two machines talking to each other.
45:43
Let me tell you, they're probably going to stay there for
45:45
a while. But I want to separate that from
45:48
the real question you're asking, which when in our lifetime as
45:50
mere mortals consumers online, we will have, I don't know, 80
45:54
percent, 90% there's going to be a bar because some websites, you
45:57
know, will take a while, but there's going to be that moment
46:00
that, you know, Oh my God, if like you don't offer passkeys,
46:02
you're like a has been brand, you're like you're sending me
46:05
your resume over fax, What's going on?
46:07
Right. Let's talk about that because
46:09
that's the realistic expectation and something we could probably
46:13
now measuring time because the other ones, they're just never
46:16
going to happen. But I don't know that that's the
46:18
goal or ever was the goal. So I'm going to go back from the
46:22
history of Time of Fido because you'll see where the demarcation
46:25
lines are. It couldn't have happened,
46:28
meaning the clock couldn't start before Apple joined, pausing so
46:33
the listeners can see why, let me tell you, because as a vendor
46:37
who joined the dark side, by the way, I go to a large bank and
46:42
say, hey, let's do this password listing.
46:43
They say like, which browser supported?
46:45
And you say Chrome. Oh good.
46:46
And the Edge. And what about Safari?
46:48
Oh, oh, they're they're not on board yet.
46:50
What do you think the knee jerk reaction is?
46:52
Well, we can't start a project until, and we've lived through
46:57
that at Trusona and I'm sure other people for about 7 years.
47:01
Let me say we took money from investors for seven years
47:05
thinking that it's so obvious we want to get rid of passwords,
47:08
that everybody will jump at once, right?
47:10
We were wrong. What took so long for them to
47:12
jump in? Because the three big guys can't
47:14
agree on anything, even if it's worth for their their own
47:16
benefit there. I'm saying it.
47:17
I'm not blaming, I'm just saying it takes.
47:20
It's like seismic shifts. But what was the thing that
47:24
said, OK, you know, obviously you're not Apple we're
47:27
pontificating here about. But what was it that made Apple
47:31
think? OK, now is the time to jump in
47:32
and do it. They should answer this
47:34
question, but I do think there was so much momentum building
47:40
that all of a sudden you look like, Oh my God, I'm now I'm
47:42
going to be left behind, OK. Especially when Google just made
47:45
that announcement last week. I mean it's a big, big like
47:49
turtle and hare race, they have to move.
47:51
So all I'm saying is we can't start the clock of every year we
47:55
thought this is going to happen and just because we're
47:57
realistic, right, until Apple moved, so that happened June 6th
48:00
of 2022. Now I want to be even more
48:02
realistic. It wasn't in the browser that
48:04
day because you know releases. They announced the W so only in
48:08
October. Look, if you're a developer and
48:10
you get beta versions of Apple, sure you could have seen it, but
48:13
it wasn't GA so only in October of last year.
48:17
Every browser iOS 16 go look it up Now is capable, it knows how
48:21
to handle it and now you need to go to your boss, which I want to
48:25
end. If you can have more questions.
48:27
But I do want to talk about how to get budgets for this, because
48:29
it's important. Because if we don't get the
48:31
budgets and we don't explain to our boards why this is needed,
48:34
it will be another 10 years, even though we can have it now,
48:37
get it can never have nice things.
48:39
I'll take any advice you can give because I think this is a
48:41
conversation that, you know Jim and I have in our day jobs is
48:44
look, everyone wants to go password list how do they, how
48:47
do they create the budget, you know, funding to do that because
48:52
it's the same in the real world and the excitement.
48:54
OK, so let's talk about it. I just want to say that was not
48:57
fair to count time before last October even though I wanted it
49:01
to happen seven years ago. So I'm just speaking from the
49:03
heart. But now the technical issue is
49:06
aside. Note, I didn't say it's perfect,
49:09
but it it is no longer the reason why you can just say I
49:12
don't want to do this. OK.
49:13
So now if you can do it, let's talk how 2024 is the year you're
49:16
going to go pass on this. This is an advice you can use
49:20
for any IT project. I'm I'm giving it to you in the
49:22
context of pass keys, but I've been around and I've had, I'm
49:25
having the same conversations like you.
49:27
And I'll just say it Are you allowed to tell jokes on this
49:31
podcast? Yeah, definitely.
49:32
So I do have a joke about how do you spot the extrovert engineer?
49:38
Do you know how when they're talking to you, they're staring
49:42
at your shoes? They're staring at what?
49:44
Your shoes? Oh.
49:48
I like that. I'm going to, I'm going to
49:51
repurpose that. Draw Inspiration, please.
49:53
I'm saying it with all the love. I'm an engineer myself, but I I
49:58
crossed to the dark side. I became a vendor and a marketer
50:01
and whatnot. I understand that it's very
50:04
difficult to live in a 01 API world.
50:08
I'm an admin, you're a user and make the leap to let me make a
50:12
presentation that will show you how much money we will save and
50:16
how our customers will be happier.
50:18
I understand that's not normal and easy and natural.
50:21
I understand it. But if you are in that middle of
50:25
like you're a CISO or you're an I am leader, which you obviously
50:29
grew up in tech, nobody in sales and marketing is an I am leader
50:33
last I checked, right. You have to take some advice how
50:39
to talk about this so you'll get the right excitement, buy in and
50:44
then budget. A lot of people ask for budget,
50:47
but it's like I say I want $1000.
50:50
For what? Wouldn't it be so easy to say,
50:53
hey, would you like to put all the employees in a car to go see
50:57
a movies? And that will improve morale.
50:59
Of course we do. How much is it?
51:00
It's $1000, same conversation. But you first tell me why should
51:05
we do anything? So let me recap.
51:09
Our customer experience will be better.
51:11
Two, we will not spend money on phone calls and SMSOTP on
51:15
account resets because last I checked, even Gartner is
51:18
recording it 30% of our cost there.
51:21
And three, if you hate the phishing and the losses and
51:23
calling people to say sorry that you lost your records, money,
51:27
miles, whatever it is you want to be in less of those good.
51:30
Let's protect those accounts in a technology that is easy to use
51:34
and not fishable. Wow, that sounds really good.
51:37
Are other companies doing it? Yes.
51:39
Rattle off some names, Google. How much is it?
51:42
Good. Now you're in the conversation,
51:44
but don't go to your boss and say I need some money to do
51:47
Password less. Focus on the outcome.
51:51
Yes, deliver the freaking outcomes.
51:53
Tell them what they're going to get.
51:55
And if you can't speak on this, with all the respect guys, you
51:57
should not be going to ask for the you're not ready.
52:01
Go do some homework or talk to your favorite vendor and say how
52:04
do I sell this? How do I package it up?
52:07
So I'm told do it and do it now. Then you're successful.
52:11
And by the way, you can take this advice to any project you
52:14
want to do. I don't know AML.
52:15
You want to do new e-mail system, you want to do new.
52:18
I don't know, find the benefit. No more than three.
52:21
Sell those. Help quantify it.
52:23
I'm sure you have friends somewhere in the business that
52:25
will help you. And then go to your boss with
52:27
the four slide deck that shows I've done my homework.
52:30
And then if they want to say no guys, fine, but don't just go
52:35
ask for budget for some technical whiz bank term,
52:38
especially if they never heard of Fido.
52:39
I don't even know what this is without explaining the why.
52:44
There I. Don't know how we can top that,
52:47
so we should probably start to wrap things up because that was
52:49
amazing. I want to talk though about some
52:51
of the other things that you work on that are not necessarily
52:54
identity related. You work with organizations
52:57
called Thorn and Ball. To all you mind sharing with
53:00
folks what those are? Sure.
53:02
I'll start with Thorn and Nick, Nick and the Noble and other
53:06
organizations that are built from people who've been mainly
53:10
in financial services but not only.
53:13
And their job is to curb the funding of Child Exploitation
53:19
online, which ends up with people called human trafficking.
53:23
But it's it's really a very simple thing.
53:24
It's snatching kids, mainly girls in the mall in a city like
53:30
Phoenix where I live. And the rest you can imagine
53:36
that's just terrible and it's happening in our society, but we
53:40
don't talk about it enough because it's so devastating and
53:42
so terrible and the world maybe is not ready for it.
53:45
I understand the Evening News is very, very peppy, but we have to
53:51
as a society not let the bad guys have the upper arm.
53:54
And with Internet anonymity, maybe that's relating to
53:58
identity. And with Bitcoin and crypto that
54:03
allow you to do transactions without and identity, you see
54:07
how it all comes back to the same thing.
54:09
I'm just volunteering my time donating with my wife to
54:13
organizations and have been to NECMEC, the National Centre of
54:17
Missing and Spoiled Children and to Thorn to develop software to
54:21
help stop this and really go rescue children.
54:25
If you are listening to the podcast, go to wearethorn.org
54:29
and just see how many children were saved this year as a result
54:33
of using the software we're working on.
54:37
Bolt Wall is another organization I'm involved with
54:40
and for Full disclosure, I started over 10 years ago.
54:45
It is a very simple organization with a very simple mission.
54:49
I'll paint the picture for you. Imagine you have refugees and
54:54
who escaped, I don't know ISIS in Iraq and now they're in Aun
54:57
Camp. OK, a big truck comes in with
55:01
it, says US aid on the truck. Let me tell you what, they take
55:04
off the truck. There are beds, amazing clothes,
55:09
amazing rice, amazing. So they're giving you sustenance
55:15
for another day, which is amazing by the way.
55:19
But what do you think those kids there do?
55:22
They're sitting there and do nothing.
55:25
So Ball to All is a very simple organization that says every kid
55:29
in the world who might not have 10 bucks to go purchase a soccer
55:33
ball and kick it around can get can have one.
55:36
The the real issue is like you have St. urchins in many, many
55:40
countries who are up to no good. Not because they want to be,
55:43
because they they're just poor and now you have extremists
55:46
talking to them and say the world hates you, no one cares
55:48
about you. Let me tell you, it's very easy
55:50
recruiting grounds for all all kinds of stuff.
55:53
But when our ambassador shows up to the center of town and sees
55:57
the 10 and just hence of a soccer ball, go see the pictures
56:01
and you'll tell me. So for 10 bucks we give one
56:05
child or a group of kids a soccer ball and their entire
56:08
afternoon, and maybe their life is now changing to another
56:11
direction where no extremist can talk to a kid who's chasing a
56:14
ball. Last I checked, that's what we
56:17
do. That's that's amazing.
56:18
I mean, bravo, Kudos. Another thing that I'm I'm not
56:22
sure if enough people know about this or anybody that really
56:24
knows about it, but you're also in the movie business.
56:27
Tell me about Ori the movie producer.
56:30
So it's funny that you ask. I've been searchable online for
56:35
a long time. And but nobody associates oh,
56:38
here's this guy who's leading the identity company.
56:40
And oh, by the way, he also produces movies.
56:43
So I've spent more than 20 years fighting fraud, right, 20 years.
56:47
But Google Now tags me as a film producer Like, OK, thank you
56:51
Google. I am not saying I'm not, but
56:53
what about the rest of my life? Most interesting fact, I guess
56:58
I, I maybe there's like a table, you know, of like, Oh yeah, #5
57:02
is fraud and #2 is film. So, OK, give him the higher
57:05
value of there's an algorithm for that.
57:08
I'm super happy. Nine years ago, I started with
57:12
my first film which was a documentary about my father's
57:15
cousin who since then had a Ted Talk at age 100 and had now
57:22
there's a Broadway that kind of kind of show about them in a
57:24
book. And I thought that was it.
57:27
You know, I can't just wanted to have a movie about an amazing
57:30
life story happens to have an amazing Holocaust story and I
57:33
thought, I thought that was that.
57:34
And then I get a call from Nancy Spielberg the sister of to say,
57:40
hey, we're working on this movie.
57:42
Would you like to be involved? And I'm like sure.
57:46
So in the same coffee shop we talked about remember that we
57:48
met and we we've done our next movie which was the first film
57:52
ever to be shown at the UN. It's called who will write our
57:54
history and open the Berlin Film Festival.
57:58
In case you're not in the in the movie in it's like it's like
58:01
saying I won an Oscar and like what did he just say.
58:04
Opening the Berlin Film Festival is an amazing thing in including
58:09
the the person who runs the show says anybody that wants a ticket
58:13
I'll buy them a free ticket to see this.
58:15
This is how important this film is and from one thing to the
58:18
next. I'm now on my 20th movie.
58:20
And yes, I'll mention the one that today we got the good news
58:24
as soon as I landed here that it's now nominated to two
58:27
Critics Choice Award, which is it ain't over And it is the
58:31
first biography or documentary rather on Yogi Berra and not him
58:37
necessarily as the coach, but him as the player and him as the
58:40
person. I'll give you just one highlight
58:42
from this movie, which by the way, if you're online, go check
58:45
The Rock, the Rotten Tomatoes on that movie and tell me if you've
58:48
seen anything like this before. People love this movie.
58:52
It's a 98%. It's just people love this
58:55
movie. I will give you one kind of
58:59
anecdote from the movie just so you'll see.
59:01
He was in D-Day storming in Normandy.
59:05
OK, got injured to the point that you should get a Purple
59:11
Heart and didn't fill the form because he didn't want his mom
59:15
to worry. And by the time his family
59:18
discovers this, everybody who's witness to this is like in their
59:22
90s and they just weren't there. So he said, I don't care about
59:26
the Purple Heart. I just want to serve my country
59:28
and and it's like you wouldn't even know that about him.
59:32
So when we heard all the things that he had done that like his
59:36
relationship with Jackie Robinson and you always say, Oh
59:39
my God, there's like so much more to this man.
59:42
And I I can just tell you I I wish I would grow up to be like
59:46
him when you see the movie. Yeah, I mean, he grew up in the
59:50
streets playing stickball in New York City, right?
59:53
Goes off Saint Louis, Indigo Hill.
59:54
See, I've learned a lot in the movie, but then moved to New
59:57
York and again became an amazing player.
1:00:01
Yeah, 10 World Series rings. I'm a Yankees fan.
1:00:04
But of all the Yankees shirts that I have, one of them, and I
1:00:10
mean the man's lived an amazing life or lived an amazing life,
1:00:14
and there's a a museum dedicated to him at Montclair State
1:00:18
University. Where I graduated and again, he
1:00:21
was a commencement speech. Or like all these things kind of
1:00:24
line up in your life and you don't even realize, like, I'm
1:00:27
there graduating from Montclair. He is the commencement.
1:00:30
And like, who knew that 20 years later I'm helping to fund the
1:00:34
movie about him, right? It's just life is interesting.
1:00:38
Yeah, very interesting. You also mentioned the 100 year
1:00:43
old person who survived the Holocaust and.
1:00:45
Eddie, Jackie, I've seen a lot of documentaries about, you
1:00:50
know, people who have survived the Holocaust and they're all so
1:00:52
humble because they all realize that there's luck that they made
1:00:57
in the person next to them didn't.
1:01:00
His book is called The Happiest Man on Earth and after Going
1:01:04
Through Again. I know he's a family member and
1:01:07
I may be biased but when you see and and read his life story you
1:01:10
say OK this just can't be what this man went through and his
1:01:15
entire life after the war was to teach love and not hate to and
1:01:21
he lived in in the Sydney was like a living exhibit in the
1:01:25
Jewish museum down there so we went to visit him but imagine
1:01:29
again maybe it's very apropos for what's happening in the
1:01:31
world today but. Don't say I hate you and that
1:01:34
that's his line. Say I don't like you, which is
1:01:36
fine, we can disagree. But hate breeds atrocities.
1:01:41
And let me tell you, after this man and what he has seen and
1:01:44
went through, if there's one thing I can leave the audience
1:01:47
with is like hate never to Maya Angelou line.
1:01:50
Hate never solved, hate never solved anything in the world.
1:01:54
But it sure did create a lot of problems.
1:01:56
So don't hate. You can say I don't like
1:01:58
something. I don't like passwords.
1:02:00
Are you sure it's not hate? We will.
1:02:03
We will help them leave this world.
1:02:05
Gently, very humanely. Don't hate.
1:02:09
That's a good way to end this. I think it's been a a great
1:02:11
conversation. Thank you so much for taking the
1:02:13
time with us. I'm going to have a bunch of
1:02:15
links in our show notes for people to connect with you on
1:02:17
LinkedIn. Learn more about True Sona.
1:02:19
Definitely links to both Thorn and Balta Hall so people can
1:02:22
check those out as well. Really do appreciate taking the
1:02:25
time. This is the last of our
1:02:27
recordings that we're doing here in Authenticate.
1:02:29
Always ended a high note is Costanza's line.
1:02:32
I think we've accomplished that big time, so we'll go ahead and
1:02:35
leave it there. You can visit us on the web at
1:02:38
idacpodcast.com. We're on Twitter at IDAC
1:02:41
Podcast, Mastodon at IDAC Podcast at infosec dot exchange.
1:02:45
Connect with Jim. And I definitely want to thank
1:02:48
the Authenticate folks for helping us put this together.
1:02:51
So definitely shout out to Andrew, Megan and Adrian for
1:02:54
helping make this happen. And definitely.
1:02:56
To RSM for funding our our little excursion right here to
1:02:59
have this conversation. So and also thank you to our
1:03:01
listeners. They've been sticking with us
1:03:03
through all these episodes. I mean, thank you.
1:03:06
Kudos to you. Yeah.
1:03:07
For sure. And to everybody who came up and
1:03:08
said hello and you know, thanks for putting us out and all that
1:03:11
stuff. That's the kind of stuff that
1:03:12
keeps us going. So definitely appreciate it.
1:03:14
So with that, we'll leave it there.
1:03:16
Thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk with everyone in
1:03:18
the next one. You've been listening to
1:03:21
Identity at the center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
1:03:25
Make sure to like, rate and review and we'll be back soon.
1:03:30
But in the meantime, hit the website at
1:03:32
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1:03:38
Podcast. See you next time on Identity at
1:03:43
the Center.