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Katie Woolf spoke with Minister for Renewables and Energy Eva Lawler · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The government earlier this week released the Darwen Catherine Electricity
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: System Plan, part of their plan to transition to what
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: the government says will be affordable, reliable, cleaner and secure energy.
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  Speaker 1: Now joining me on the line to tell us more
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  Speaker 1: about this is the Minister for Energy and Renewables, Evil Lawla.
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  Speaker 2: Good morning to your minister.
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  Speaker 3: Good morning Katie.
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  Speaker 2: Now, Minister.
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  Speaker 1: The system plan provides a pathway to generate fifty percent
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  Speaker 1: renewable energy by twenty thirty in the Darwin Catherine Electricity system.
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  Speaker 1: It's also aimed at cutting those emissions obviously, as we
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  Speaker 1: know in half, I'd imagine there needs to be power
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  Speaker 1: infrastructure upgrades and some changes to the system to enable
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  Speaker 1: this to happen.
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  Speaker 2: Is that the case?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So the plan has three stages already in
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  Speaker 3: a set and then a go stage, but it then
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  Speaker 3: has also six key areas that we need to do
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  Speaker 3: work in and so it does, as you said, provide
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  Speaker 3: that pathway for power and water territory generation to KARA,
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  Speaker 3: but then also the private sector as well. So it
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  Speaker 3: talks about out how do we increase the solar PV
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  Speaker 3: on rooftops, how do we get more investment into the
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  Speaker 3: large scale solar farms, and so one of the first
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  Speaker 3: actions is about having a renewable energy hub out from
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  Speaker 3: Channel Island there and that would be a place where
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  Speaker 3: the solar farms would be focused. It talks then about
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  Speaker 3: the battery storage, because you need to make sure there's
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  Speaker 3: stability in the grid. We've got a large best battery
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  Speaker 3: energy storage system that's about to go to procurement about
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  Speaker 3: to be announced, but we'll need to look at another
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  Speaker 3: battery probably in about twenty twenty four. So it maps
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  Speaker 3: those sorts of things. It talks about virtual power plants,
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  Speaker 3: that talks about managing demand as well. So it provides
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  Speaker 3: a clear pathway and it provides those signals to the
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  Speaker 3: private sector as well as our gogs around what needs
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  Speaker 3: to happen when.
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  Speaker 1: And I guess, you know, I don't think there'd be
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  Speaker 1: many people out there listening who wouldn't want us to
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  Speaker 1: go down this path. I mean, everybody wants to get
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  Speaker 1: to the where we are certainly fifty percent renewable energy
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  Speaker 1: by twenty thirty. But I suppose even for me hearing
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  Speaker 1: what you're saying this morning, I'm thinking, how much is
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  Speaker 1: it going to cost? Are we relying on on you know,
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  Speaker 1: like private investment or is it money that the government's
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  Speaker 1: going to need to fork out when you talk about
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  Speaker 1: that battery storage and various other things.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, O, Katie. The good thing about it so if
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  Speaker 3: we too go to the battery storage the best, that's
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  Speaker 3: about a thirty million dollar cost, but it's already been
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  Speaker 3: worked out that that the savings through the price of
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  Speaker 3: gas and also the price of the maintenance of the machinery,
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  Speaker 3: that the best will pay itself off within five years.
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  Speaker 3: And so when we talk about the solar plan that
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  Speaker 3: this plan is actually dynamic. It's going to be reviewed
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  Speaker 3: every two years because the costs are shifting very quickly.
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  Speaker 3: So when you look at the price of solar panels,
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  Speaker 3: when you look at the price of batteries, you know
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  Speaker 3: things are moving very quickly in those areas. So you
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  Speaker 3: know we also in this plan there is still thermal generation,
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  Speaker 3: so there is still the need to have gas fired
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  Speaker 3: power stations or gas fire generators. But one of the
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  Speaker 3: issues in the plan is making sure that as we
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  Speaker 3: replace those thermal generators at TGen at Channel Island, that
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  Speaker 3: we bring in these smaller, agile plants that can come
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  Speaker 3: on very quickly. So there are savings around that, so
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  Speaker 3: you're not running the big machines, you know, twenty four
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  Speaker 3: to seven, you'll have these small machines that can come
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  Speaker 3: in and out as need as the demand changes, say
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  Speaker 3: of an evening or you know, when there's when there's
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  Speaker 3: cloud cover and things, So you need to be agile
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  Speaker 3: around that. So yeah, the modeling and the modeling looks
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  Speaker 3: at three different scenarios around how well it's taken up,
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  Speaker 3: but it does look to at least thirty million dollars
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  Speaker 3: saving by twenty thirty.
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  Speaker 1: Are we still going to be paying for that gas though,
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  Speaker 1: because as I understand, there used to be and I'm
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  Speaker 1: not sure if it's still in place that deal with
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  Speaker 1: Black Tips to be getting that back up gas. So
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  Speaker 1: is that still in place? And when does that run out?
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  Speaker 3: That runs out? I think it's twenty forty, twenty thirty
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  Speaker 3: two or something. I'm just trying to remember. I think
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  Speaker 3: it might be twenty thirty two that the n E
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  Speaker 3: contract runs out. And so that's one of the assumptions
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  Speaker 3: that and we're seeing that already. So Power and Water
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  Speaker 3: are able to first of all sell the gas, and
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  Speaker 3: they have been doing that. They've been selling gas to
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  Speaker 3: interstate manufacturers and they've been doing that for a while.
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  Speaker 3: We also want that thirty the forty billion economy by
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  Speaker 3: twenty thirty, so we want manufacturing in that middle arm
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  Speaker 3: sustainability precinct. So there's opportunities for Power and Water to
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  Speaker 3: sell gas for manufacturing there as well. But the bottom
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  Speaker 3: line is also we still need We will still need
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  Speaker 3: fifty percent of the gas at least till twenty thirty
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  Speaker 3: unless those timelines change. So Power and Water have been
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  Speaker 3: able to sell and utilize all the gas in the
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  Speaker 3: last financial year. So yeah, I don't think it's such
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  Speaker 3: an issue that people are concerned about because there are
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  Speaker 3: options about selling gas into state. There are options around manufacturing.
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  Speaker 3: That's what we want to do with our gas, so
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  Speaker 3: there are options around the gas. It won't be a
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  Speaker 3: stranded asset now, Minister. I know.
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  Speaker 1: Last week, Sky News obtained a copy of a report
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  Speaker 1: commissioned by the government back in twenty nineteen on achieving
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  Speaker 1: the renewable Energy Target. The report contained some serious warnings
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  Speaker 1: about the practical and financial implications of that renewable target,
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  Speaker 1: and the economists modeling showed that taxpayers were going to
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  Speaker 1: be slugged between twenty five million and twenty nine million
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  Speaker 1: more in twenty thirty for their electricity. Is that still
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  Speaker 1: the case and how is it going to be managed?
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  Speaker 2: Is it going to be something that.
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  Speaker 1: Taxpayers have to pay more on their bill or is
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  Speaker 1: it going to be subsidized?
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  Speaker 2: What's the situation here?
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  Speaker 3: So Houston Kemp, that Houston Kemp report. That report was
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  Speaker 3: April twenty nineteen, so nearly three years ago. There was
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  Speaker 3: a point in time report. As I said, this is
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  Speaker 3: the plan now that we have and Houston Kemp made
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  Speaker 3: a number of assumptions. Some of those assumptions aren't relevant now.
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  Speaker 3: So obviously we've had COVID during that time, so we've
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  Speaker 3: had our Tersey report, which wants to you know, and
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  Speaker 3: we are working absolutely. Every agency's focused on that forty
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  Speaker 3: billion dollar economy by twenty thirty, which, as I said,
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  Speaker 3: has a very strong focus on manufacturing. And you're hearing
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  Speaker 3: that language around the federal government now, even the labor
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  Speaker 3: opposition talking about we need to bake things in Australia.
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  Speaker 3: We need to do those things. So to be able
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  Speaker 3: to do that you need electricity. And so there were
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  Speaker 3: a number, as I said, a number of assumptions around
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  Speaker 3: Houston kemp that aren't relevant now and this so the
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  Speaker 3: gas is one of them that they talked about, and
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  Speaker 3: as I said, we think there's lots of opportunities for
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  Speaker 3: the gas that we have. And the other one is
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  Speaker 3: this is a focus on renewable energy hubs, which wasn't
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  Speaker 3: something that was talked about in twenty nineteen. So New
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  Speaker 3: South Wales, if you look at their energy plan, they
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  Speaker 3: are talking about renewable energy zones and how that will
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  Speaker 3: bring down the cost of producing renewable power. And so
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  Speaker 3: that's one of the strategies on the Darn Catherine is
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  Speaker 3: to have this renewable energy hub. So yeah, Houston Kent
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  Speaker 3: was valuable at the time, but as I said, since then,
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  Speaker 3: we've moved on and we have our plan now. The
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  Speaker 3: plan is available online for people to be able to
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  Speaker 3: go and have a good read. Because I'm really just
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  Speaker 3: skimming over the surface. It does provide all the data,
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  Speaker 3: all the details and how we get to all the
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  Speaker 3: costings in that plan, So have a look online.
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  Speaker 1: I guess fundamentally what people listening might be wondering though,
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  Speaker 1: is it going to cost more on their power bill
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  Speaker 1: for us to get to fifty percent renewables by twenty thirty.
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  Speaker 1: What can you say to those out there listening this
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  Speaker 1: morning who are worried that it could cost them more
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  Speaker 1: in their hip pocket as we get closer to that
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  Speaker 1: twenty thirty target.
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  Speaker 3: Well, first and foremost, one in six territorians have Solopeva
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  Speaker 3: on their rooftops already, and so those people and you
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  Speaker 3: know your listeners can ring in and talk about their
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  Speaker 3: power bills. Those people have low or very or non
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  Speaker 3: existent power bills now. So we have the Home and
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  Speaker 3: Business Battery Scheme that's continuing, so that provides support for
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  Speaker 3: people to be able to have solo PV on their rooftop.
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  Speaker 3: And as I said, we want to see more doing that.
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  Speaker 3: Part of this plan also in the work that we're
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  Speaker 3: doing is how do we look at, for example, people
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  Speaker 3: who rent or people who are in public housing who
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  Speaker 3: may not be able to access solar PV because you know,
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  Speaker 3: there's limitations, or their landlords or whatever choose or have
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  Speaker 3: chosen not to. So we're talking about community batteries as well.
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  Speaker 3: So there's a project in Ala Springs as part of
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  Speaker 3: their future grid because this is a Dar and Catherine plan,
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  Speaker 3: but there is also a plan being developed our of
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  Speaker 3: Springs but there's also about then, so that one of
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  Speaker 3: their key projects out of their five projects there is
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  Speaker 3: how can you put in a community battery, So there
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  Speaker 3: would be so somebody would have solar PV on their
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  Speaker 3: rooftop and that could be in public housing and then
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  Speaker 3: they instead of having to have eight batteries in every household,
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  Speaker 3: there could be a community battery that they link into.
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  Speaker 3: So it is about making sure that Territorians have affordable power.
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  Speaker 3: We know that they want to have a cleaner, greener
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  Speaker 3: power into the future. So yeah, absolutely this is the
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  Speaker 3: focus of government to make sure that Territorians have cheaper
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  Speaker 3: power into the future, more affordable powers.
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  Speaker 1: So you are ruling out any power price increase as
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  Speaker 1: a result of trying to reach these targets by twenty thirty.
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  Speaker 3: Well, Katie, I probably won't be the Minister for Renewables
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  Speaker 3: in twenty thirty, but as I said, this plan shows
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  Speaker 3: a thirty million dollar reduction then, And as I said,
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  Speaker 3: I think the colp were the ones that tried to
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  Speaker 3: put up power by thirty percent and realized how bad
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  Speaker 3: that was to them. So I think governments are very
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  Speaker 3: sensible and very careful about power pricing in the Northern territory.
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  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about this hydrogen plan that's also
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  Speaker 1: been released. What's it going to mean for the Northern Territory.
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  Speaker 1: I know that we've got an abundance of sun and
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  Speaker 1: also water. Here are we going down more the water
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  Speaker 1: based hydrogen or gas?
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  Speaker 3: No, So this is definitely about This master plan is
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  Speaker 3: a renewable hydrogen master plan, so you know, which we
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  Speaker 3: call green hydrogen, which has zero greenhouse gas emissions, and
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  Speaker 3: so we want to be a leader. We want to
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  Speaker 3: be at the forefront of developing a renewable hydrogen industry
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  Speaker 3: and it is very early stages. So we're at what
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  Speaker 3: we're calling the demonstration stage, which is you know, we're
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  Speaker 3: working about research. We're looking at what are the possibilities
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  Speaker 3: going forward. So you know, we think that we have
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  Speaker 3: as you say, we have high solar radiance, we have
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  Speaker 3: a close proximity to the export markets. We think that
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  Speaker 3: we have large areas of land, as I said, the
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  Speaker 3: opportunities for solace. So we think it can be similar
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  Speaker 3: to our LNG industry, which is about a three point
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  Speaker 3: seven billion dollar industry. But you know, it is about export,
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  Speaker 3: but it is also about again cheap power for Territorians.
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  Speaker 3: So there is a trial already happening in Tenant Creek.
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  Speaker 3: So erm is a company that's being able to and
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  Speaker 3: this is quite amazing technology, but extract out of the atmosphere,
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  Speaker 3: extract moisture to produce water to then as I said,
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  Speaker 3: get to hydrogen. And they're doing a hydrogen trial at
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  Speaker 3: Tenincreete power Station. So it's a pilot there, which is
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  Speaker 3: as I said, quite amazing to think that they're being
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: able to access water that way. And so it is
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: about and that's part of our electricity down cap and
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  Speaker 3: electricity plan is making sure those generators that we're replacing
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  Speaker 3: at TGen are small, agile, quick start generators, but they
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  Speaker 3: are also they are also being able to take hydrogen
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  Speaker 3: as well, so you're a hydrogen gas blend. So it
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  Speaker 3: is important the hydrogen industry for the territory but also
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  Speaker 3: long term as a great export industry too.
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  Speaker 1: Now I mean Astro, I know we're fast running out
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  Speaker 1: of time, as are you. I do want to ask
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  Speaker 1: though obviously a Lee point. It's a point of contention,
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  Speaker 1: it has been for a little while now, but Council Alderman,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Rebecca want to Row and Alderman justin Glover fighting against
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: the development. We heard from Justin Glover just last week
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  Speaker 1: about this is mont de Roh is calling for the
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  Speaker 1: Council to write to you asking to freeze that construction
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  Speaker 1: until the NT Planning Commission completes a thorough area plan Minister.
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  Speaker 2: Is it too far gone now?
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  Speaker 1: I mean this has been on the cards for such
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  Speaker 1: a long period of time, hasn't it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is actually too far gone, as Katie, it's so.
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  Speaker 3: First of all, this development has followed all the right
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: processes through. So as I said, there was the Planning
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  Speaker 3: Commission way back I think in twenty fifteen. That was
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  Speaker 3: under a colp government, so you know we can talk
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: about it being done by a previous government, so it's
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: not a focus of one or the other. Planning commission
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  Speaker 3: actually gets out there and makes sensible planning decisions by
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: talking to people. So there was the planning decisions were
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  Speaker 3: made as I said, many years ago in the DCA
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: was involved. And the DCA is an independent It has
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: also two council reps on it for the for a start,
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: so both those councilors or aldermen were on the council
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: probably at the time that they had reps on the
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: DCA that made decisions about leepoint going ahead. It has
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: been through the EPA, Independent EPA and it has also
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: been through the Federal EPBC, so it has gone through
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: all of those processes that so to get the approval
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: for the subdivision. As a minister, I am not going
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: to start overturning decisions that are being made by independent
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  Speaker 3: stature statutory boards, otherwise we will have chaos in the
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: Northern Territory. Otherwise, you know, every time somebody tries to
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: develop something, or the opposite developer gets doesn't get approval,
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: you would have a group of people that you know
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: then placard, yell, loudly complain and then think a decision
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: can be overturned. There would provide no confidence to developers.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: It would provide no surety to environmental groups either. So
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: we do need to and that's clear governance and I
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: think both those counselors should understand around governance. When you
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: have independent staturgy boards that work through decisions, especially when
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: they have representatives on them, those decisions stand.
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  Speaker 2: So Minister, it's a done deal. It is a done deal.
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  Speaker 3: A done deal. It is a done deal. And there
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: are already people that have purchased blocks there. I can
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: understand people's concerns around that. Any development, any change that
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: we see in the territory, and it's not just in
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: the territory, it raises concerns and angst amongst people. But
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: this will be worked through. So you know, the monsoon
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: buying tickets, the shore birds, all of those things the
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: EPA looked at very carefully and will make sure as
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: I said, that those and will make sure that the
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: developers also adhere to those recommendations and what they need
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: to do well.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Minister for Energy and Renewables and also Planning evil Ula,
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  Speaker 1: I appreciate your time this morning.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having a chat with us. Thank
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  Speaker 2: you very much, Katie, thank you.
• 15:01
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• 15:03
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• 15:06
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