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Pastors' Perspective-10/26/26 · Pastors Perspective

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  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
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  Speaker 1: It is Monday. We are here live in the studio,
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  Speaker 1: so call in 888-564-6173 is the number.
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  Speaker 1: You can also watch us live streaming on Facebook, YouTube,
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  Speaker 1: and Instagram, but if you've got a question, call in.
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  Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you at 888-564-6173. We've got
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  Speaker 1: pastors Char Broderson and Mike Chattick here ready to take
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  Speaker 1: your calls. So let's hear those questions at 888-564-6173. Got
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  Speaker 1: a question about the Bible, the Christian faith, just about
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  Speaker 1: anything that's on your mind, we can discuss it today
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  Speaker 1: here on Pastor's Perspective. How are you guys doing? How
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  Speaker 1: was church yesterday?
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  Speaker 2: It was actually great. We're, uh, we did our fall
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  Speaker 2: celebration and a few years ago we started doing like
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  Speaker 2: a short reformation series like looking back, you know, um,
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  Speaker 2: to the Protestant Reformation, you know, with Halloween coming up
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  Speaker 2: and everybody celebrating that we're like, hey, it's kind of
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  Speaker 2: cool that on October 31st, 1517, that's when Martin Luther
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  Speaker 2: nailed the 95 theses to the door of the Wittenberg
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  Speaker 2: Church and kind of that water shared symbolic moment.
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  Speaker 2: That sparked the reformation and and it's amazing because like
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  Speaker 2: a lot of people uh that I've talked to like
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  Speaker 2: in Calvary Chapel background don't actually know that much about
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  Speaker 2: the Reformation which is.
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  Speaker 2: Abs and and it's not just Calvary Chapel. I'd say
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  Speaker 2: a lot of, you know, non-denominational evangelical churches, a lot
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  Speaker 2: of people don't know much at all about the Reformation
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  Speaker 2: and if it weren't for the Reformation, we wouldn't be here,
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  Speaker 2: we wouldn't have, you know, the kind of Protestant independent
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  Speaker 2: evangelical churches that we do. So kind of looking back
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  Speaker 2: on that and then not just looking back as a
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  Speaker 2: history lesson but looking forward.
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  Speaker 2: And like one of the beautiful lessons we learned yesterday,
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  Speaker 2: like so many Christians right now, especially with the political cycle,
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  Speaker 2: they wanna change the world and like go out there,
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  Speaker 2: but they're kind of assuming the church is fine as
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  Speaker 2: is we can just focus on the messed up world
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  Speaker 2: out there, um, but the beautiful lesson from the reformation
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  Speaker 2: is man, judgment begins at the house of God and
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  Speaker 2: if we reform the church we can change the world
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  Speaker 2: if the church will be what it is supposed to
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  Speaker 2: be if we focus on us, um.
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  Speaker 2: And so it's, it's kind of exciting, you know, um,
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  Speaker 2: and again we, we wanna change the world, but we
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  Speaker 2: also take need to take a, a good look at
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  Speaker 2: ourselves and go back to the Bible and constantly, you know,
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  Speaker 2: like with Peter Lord, is it I and I, I
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  Speaker 2: want you to search my heart and know me, know
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  Speaker 2: our church, know our, you know, affiliation denomination, whatever it
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  Speaker 2: is and.
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  Speaker 2: And get realigned with the gospel.
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  Speaker 1: That's great.
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  Speaker 1: Didn't you kind of teach on that yesterday too? I mean,
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  Speaker 1: very similar. Yeah. See, I was paying attention. Yeah, I mean, we,
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  Speaker 1: so we were, we're in Acts and we're looking at
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  Speaker 1: the passage in Acts 13. It's the only time that
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  Speaker 1: Luke uses the word, um, well, our English word liturgy
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  Speaker 1: to describe, uh, how the church is worshiping.
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  Speaker 1: And so we were talking about how the word liturgy was, uh,
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  Speaker 1: intentionally chosen by the early church because, um, you know,
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  Speaker 1: this is a, a word about a public work. Like
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  Speaker 1: it's a, how they would talk about bridge building or
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  Speaker 1: a city wall. It's a work done by the people
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  Speaker 1: for the people.
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  Speaker 1: And just talking about how in our churches today in
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  Speaker 1: Western Christian culture, um, we actually practice a very pagan
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  Speaker 1: way of worship where the orgy is pagan worship, and
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  Speaker 1: it was done by many, but it was all about
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  Speaker 1: the personal ecstatic, you know, experience and how we've really
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  Speaker 1: made church about our own spiritual well-being. You know, so
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  Speaker 1: we like celebrity pastors, celebrity.
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  Speaker 1: worship leaders, like critiquing, well, I didn't get much out
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  Speaker 1: of it, all those types of things, rather than asking, well,
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  Speaker 1: what did I come to give? What is the gifts
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  Speaker 1: and abilities that God has given me to play a
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  Speaker 1: part in this liturgical worship of ministering to the Lord
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  Speaker 1: and ministering to one another. And so we're talking about
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  Speaker 1: out of that life together of, uh, you know, practicing
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  Speaker 1: the way of Jesus, others-oriented, self-sacrificial life, practiced together in
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  Speaker 1: our gathered worship. Out of that, the Holy Spirit.
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  Speaker 1: Uh, propels us in mission, and we see that with,
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  Speaker 1: you know, as they're ministering to the Lord in this
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  Speaker 1: liturgical setting, Spirit speaks, separate to me, Paul and Barnabas,
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  Speaker 1: for the ministry that I've called them to. And it's like, man,
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  Speaker 1: isn't this beautiful, like this pattern of form and fire,
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  Speaker 1: like we do this, we practice the way of Jesus
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  Speaker 1: and the Spirit launches us out into, you know, um,
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  Speaker 1: escapades of the kingdom of God, you know, so yeah,
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  Speaker 1: really one of those vision casting, like, who are we
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  Speaker 1: gonna be inviting people in again, so.
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  Speaker 2: That's, that sounds amazing and it's so interesting because like
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  Speaker 2: we were saying too like.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of the, not all, but a lot of
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  Speaker 2: the church growth seeker friendly movement there they begin with
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  Speaker 2: the question, what do you want out of church? What
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  Speaker 2: do you want? And I just am reading the reformers
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  Speaker 2: their question was what does God want with the church?
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  Speaker 2: How can we reform the church according to the word
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  Speaker 2: of God? They didn't go out and do polls. hey,
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  Speaker 2: what would you like? Oh, you don't like church. hey,
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  Speaker 2: what do you want to see? Do you want more
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  Speaker 2: of this, less of this, a different kind of thing.
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  Speaker 2: It was all about what does God want? what does
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  Speaker 2: what does, what honors God with our church and not
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  Speaker 2: to say, you know, hey, if we don't prioritize what
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  Speaker 2: the Bible says, what God wants, and then, hey, we
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  Speaker 2: can stretch ourselves and be like, oh, OK, as long
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  Speaker 2: as this doesn't conflict, but I do think there's a
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  Speaker 2: pressure in our consumer culture, in individualistic consumer culture like
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  Speaker 2: you were just describing to actually shape everything that we do,
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  Speaker 2: our mission, our beliefs, the way we do church, the
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  Speaker 2: way we worship, even the liturgy.
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  Speaker 2: All around what we as individuals want out of it,
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  Speaker 2: and I think that's sad and a lot of churches,
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  Speaker 2: I think, are, hey, you wanna get people, it's what
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  Speaker 2: you gotta do. Well, I think this is where theological integrity, conviction,
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  Speaker 2: like I wanna be faithful, you know, if that means fewer,
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  Speaker 2: that's fine, but I wanna be faithful
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  Speaker 1: to God. Yeah, yeah, I heard somebody describe like the work, um,
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  Speaker 1: that we're doing in the church when we're just mimicking
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  Speaker 1: the culture we don't actually, uh, experience like deep transformation.
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  Speaker 1: So you know, we may come and
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  Speaker 1: adhere to kind of all these truths. So we know
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  Speaker 1: the right things, but we want the wrong things still.
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  Speaker 1: And you know, just how, uh, you know, somebody said
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  Speaker 1: it like, you know, we want to go, we want
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  Speaker 1: the life of Jesus, but we don't want the
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  Speaker 1: Um, we don't want the lifestyle or the rhythms and
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  Speaker 1: habits of Jesus, you know, and so, but like, we
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  Speaker 1: need his overall doubts. Well, what we're talking about, you know,
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  Speaker 1: we need the overall life of Jesus to be mimicked
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  Speaker 1: and copied. We need to be disciples in every aspect
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  Speaker 1: if we're going to see the life of Jesus formed
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  Speaker 1: in us. And I've just found, you know, there are
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  Speaker 1: many people like
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  Speaker 1: Right, like, well, people's attention span is only 15 minutes,
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  Speaker 1: so you got to make your sermons this and that.
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  Speaker 1: It's like, actually, uh, we only have our people for
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  Speaker 1: maybe 2 hours on a Sunday, and I'm gonna go
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  Speaker 1: deeper into the word. I'm actually gonna go, uh, I'm
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  Speaker 1: gonna expand them. I'm actually gonna put the word just
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  Speaker 1: above their heads, so they have to grow and reach.
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  Speaker 1: And we've found over time, you know, when I first started,
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  Speaker 1: people be like, man, the stuff you're talking about is
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  Speaker 1: really deep. I like.
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  Speaker 1: Uh, you know, it's, it's making me think a lot.
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  Speaker 1: It's really stretching me, and I'm like, OK, OK. And then,
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  Speaker 1: you know, months later they're like, oh my gosh, I
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  Speaker 1: am now getting so much. And I think there is
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  Speaker 1: just this, yeah, what the church is called to do
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  Speaker 1: is counter formation of culture, not just to say, oh well, yeah, well,
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  Speaker 1: what is the culture doing and how are they shaping minds? Well,
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  Speaker 1: let's just copy that. It's like, no, we actually need
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  Speaker 1: to go the other way. So
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  Speaker 2: absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: 888-564-6173 is our number and we're gonna go right to
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  Speaker 1: the phones, beginning with Kathleen in Lake Forest. Welcome to
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  Speaker 1: Pastor's Perspective, Kathleen, what did you want to ask Char
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  Speaker 1: and Mike?
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  Speaker 1: Hi, thank you for taking my call. I've never called before. Um,
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  Speaker 1: hope I do OK. So far so good.
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  Speaker 1: OK, so, um, the scripture that, that I wanted to
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  Speaker 1: bring up is 1 Corinthians 5:11.
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  Speaker 1: And so, um, I, uh-huh, my husband and I got
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  Speaker 1: married a year and a half years ago and we
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  Speaker 1: were both, um, widows or widowers. When he was a widower,
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  Speaker 1: I was a widow, and, um, his daughter is 53
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  Speaker 1: years old. She's only 10 years younger than I am.
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  Speaker 1: Um, at the time she was living just with her son.
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  Speaker 1: Now she's living with her boyfriend and her son in
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  Speaker 1: another city nearby, and, um, she let me know in
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  Speaker 1: a text, I think it was a text, like, um,
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  Speaker 1: a general text to the family. She, she thinks she's
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  Speaker 1: a Christian. She says she's a Christian.
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  Speaker 1: And she's, you know, living with her boyfriend and supposedly
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  Speaker 1: it's because of money reasons. I won't go into details, but, um, I,
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  Speaker 1: I know what the scripture says. I'm not even supposed
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  Speaker 1: to eat with someone who says that, but when they're
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  Speaker 1: family like that and my husband would be the final
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  Speaker 1: decision maker on that, and my husband is a Christian.
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  Speaker 1: Um, I just was wondering what you had to say
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  Speaker 1: about that. Char, start with you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Kathleen, I mean, it's a great question, and these
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  Speaker 1: things are.
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  Speaker 1: You know, whenever we have um
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  Speaker 1: Our faith is also intermixed with family dynamics and, you know,
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  Speaker 1: and at the same time, not belonging to the same church,
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  Speaker 1: same community can often make that difficult, you know, and
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  Speaker 1: so we're claiming the same thing, but our lives are
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  Speaker 1: not necessarily, you know, in community with one another, so
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  Speaker 1: we don't get to see kind of the proof of
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  Speaker 1: these things, you know, uh, either good or bad. So, um,
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  Speaker 1: I guess I have to say, like, I hear you
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  Speaker 1: and I hear the pain point. Um,
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  Speaker 1: And I think normally I would say, man, you just
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  Speaker 1: want to love, you know, these people and be present
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  Speaker 1: with them and model to them and be gracious with them.
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  Speaker 1: But I do think, you know, is that difficulty when
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  Speaker 1: somebody is claiming the name of Jesus and yet living
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  Speaker 1: a lifestyle that is inconsistent with the way of Jesus. Like,
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  Speaker 1: how do we, how do we deal with that with
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  Speaker 1: brothers and sisters, claim brothers and sisters, when we're not
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  Speaker 1: actually living in community with them. And I do think, um,
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  Speaker 1: That's difficult when you also have just the level of
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  Speaker 1: we're we are family and we have these ties with
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  Speaker 1: one another and families spend time together, eat together, spend
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  Speaker 1: holidays together. And so what do you do with that?
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  Speaker 1: You know, is every holiday the opportunity to call people
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  Speaker 1: out on sin and you know, things like, like, is
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  Speaker 1: that what we're supposed to be doing? Is that faithful?
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  Speaker 1: And so, uh, this is the way that I've approached
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  Speaker 1: this in the past.
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  Speaker 1: I have tried to approach this from an area, uh,
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  Speaker 1: or I guess a position of true concern. I, I
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  Speaker 1: think sometimes, um, the way that we can come across is, well,
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  Speaker 1: I'm a policeman and I just need to make sure
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  Speaker 1: that you're checking all the boxes. And if you are,
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  Speaker 1: then I don't have really have to have a problem
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  Speaker 1: with you or need to be invested in your spiritual life.
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  Speaker 1: As long as you're doing the things and I can
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  Speaker 1: say like, OK, you're doing the things and
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  Speaker 1: But so I, I think I would just ask, like,
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  Speaker 1: what is your relationship with this person to begin with?
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  Speaker 1: Is it, um, is it deeper than just, uh, they're,
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  Speaker 1: they say they're a Christian, but they're not, and so
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  Speaker 1: I need to call them out. Like, have you been
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  Speaker 1: able to talk with them about other areas of their life,
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  Speaker 1: you know, and have they opened themselves up to you
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  Speaker 1: in a way, you know, that you are a confidant and,
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  Speaker 1: and somebody, uh, who can speak into their life? I
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  Speaker 1: would wonder just about that, like, or, you know, like
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  Speaker 1: what is the dynamic there?
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  Speaker 1: Because I think it's very important that if we're going to, um,
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  Speaker 1: you know,
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  Speaker 1: encourage people in their discipleship that we're going to encourage
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  Speaker 1: people in the whole of their discipleship and not just
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  Speaker 1: in one area. And so I would, you know, if
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  Speaker 1: it were me, I would want to have a conversation
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  Speaker 1: again about concern. Hey, like, I'm, I'm, I love that
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  Speaker 1: you are a Christian. Tell me what that looks like
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  Speaker 1: in your life. Like, what is your commitment to Christ?
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  Speaker 1: What is your discipleship look like? How have you seen
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  Speaker 1: Uh, yourself grow in the last season of life. Maybe
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  Speaker 1: sharing from your own life, Kathleen, like, these are ways
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  Speaker 1: that I'm growing. Here's areas of my life that I'm
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  Speaker 1: struggling with. You know, Paul talks about in the book
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  Speaker 1: of Galatians, he says, you know, that we are to
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  Speaker 1: call one another out, but we're to do it in
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  Speaker 1: a a spirit of humility and always remembering our own, um,
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  Speaker 1: frailties and inconsistencies, lest we also fall. And so,
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  Speaker 1: Whenever I'm in a conversation where, you know, I know
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  Speaker 1: that there's an issue, I've always tried to lead with
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  Speaker 1: vulnerability in my own struggles to say, hey, this is
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  Speaker 1: an area where I've struggled in, and this is some
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  Speaker 1: of the things that God has worked on in me
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  Speaker 1: to to help me through those things. And so, you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's kind of the principle as a pastor, it's like, well, I'll,
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  Speaker 1: I'll go first. And that, and so I wonder if
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  Speaker 1: maybe that could be the way forward in, in your
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  Speaker 1: relationship and dynamic. Thank you.
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  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts, Kathleen?
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  Speaker 1: That's great. Thank you. I, I wouldn't have thought of that.
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  Speaker 1: I just didn't know what to do.
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  Speaker 1: So, Mike,
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  Speaker 2: yeah, and, and again, keep in mind Paul here, he's
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  Speaker 2: writing to a church and he's writing to this church
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  Speaker 2: about people who are in that church and they're living
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  Speaker 2: in unrepentant licentious sin.
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  Speaker 2: And even the ones that aren't are sort of acting
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  Speaker 2: and treating and welcoming them into the church and the
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  Speaker 2: fellowship as though nothing's happened so, so that's the issue
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  Speaker 2: I think one thing that's different like that Char was
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  Speaker 2: describing that you're mentioning is you have a, a separate
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  Speaker 2: family dynamic irrespective of church involvement. So I'd say first
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  Speaker 2: of all this would be actually be a matter if
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  Speaker 2: she's claiming to be a Christian.
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  Speaker 2: You could actually start with uh oh you are so
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  Speaker 2: where do you go to church? Where's your church community
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  Speaker 2: um if she says you don't like wow, well that's
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  Speaker 2: part of the problem and by the way, the lack
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  Speaker 2: of accountability, the lack of being in the word, the
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  Speaker 2: lack of prayer, fellowship, um, service that actually lead honestly.
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  Speaker 2: Leads to sin. I don't know people claiming to be
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  Speaker 2: Christian who have nothing to do with the church, who
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  Speaker 2: don't read God's word, who don't pray, who don't serve,
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  Speaker 2: who don't give, and they're living fine otherwise. Like, usually,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the sin of omission leads to the sin
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  Speaker 2: of commission, failing to do the good ends up leading bad. Um,
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  Speaker 2: another thing to keep in mind is sometimes when people read,
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  Speaker 2: you know, this passage, for example, I, I wrote to
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  Speaker 2: you in my epistle not to keep company with, etc. etc.
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  Speaker 2: Um, the goal is just to like purge ourselves of
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  Speaker 2: any dirty people in our lives, but for Paul that's
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  Speaker 2: not the goal. It, it might be an unfortunate and
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  Speaker 2: necessary means, but it's not the goal. The goal is restoration.
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  Speaker 2: The goal is you want to see your husband's daughter
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  Speaker 2: like get right with God. Like that's the goal. Keep
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  Speaker 2: that in mind because if you lose, if you, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: because if you lose the goal, then I, I think,
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  Speaker 2: you know, you kind of.
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  Speaker 2: You beat yourself oh my gosh, I might not be
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  Speaker 2: doing the right thing I gotta do the right thing.
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  Speaker 2: I gotta get rid of her and not talk to
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  Speaker 2: her it's like, no, no, no, wait a minute, this
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  Speaker 2: is a tool that you're being given as a Christian
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  Speaker 2: in order to help a professing brother or sister who's
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  Speaker 2: living in sin thinks they're fine, no they're not fine
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  Speaker 2: so they can repent and get right with God.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think also in many situations like this, you know,
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  Speaker 1: where you have two people who are claiming to be Christian, cohabitating,
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  Speaker 1: what I find is they actually don't understand what marriage
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  Speaker 1: is for and the incredible gift that it is of partnership,
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  Speaker 1: of accountability, of help, of encouragement, that, you know, that
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  Speaker 1: what it is meant to be, uh, by God, a
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  Speaker 1: partner for life, uh, you know, in, like we would say,
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  Speaker 1: we used to say in the, um,
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  Speaker 1: The vows, you know, for better, for worse, and sickness
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  Speaker 1: and health, um, richer or poorer till death do its part,
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  Speaker 1: that somebody is actually committing to you for the long
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  Speaker 1: haul and committing to your care, to your protection, to
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  Speaker 1: your good that you have a partner in life, and
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  Speaker 1: that this is all in covenant with God as well,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: who keeps this marriage and, and, you know, holds you
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: to these vows. And so I, I've just found that
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: there are so many people out there.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: That unfortunately they're just mimicking what they see in the
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: culture and their, their views or maybe even just their
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: own past experience, right, if they came out of a
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: broken home and these sorts of things, well, I don't
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: want to bring that brokenness in my life. It's like
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: actually by not committing to this, you're actually setting yourself
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: up for, you know, leaving easier, you know, in these things.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: And so there's a great book out there, Kathleen, that
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: could be a, a great resource for
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Um, your daughter, uh, stepdaughter and her husband, and maybe
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: even for you and your husband as well in your marriage, but, uh,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: it's called The Meaning of Marriage by Tim and Kathy Keller.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: And it's just gives such a beautiful biblical view of
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: what God, uh, the gift that marriage is, uh, for us.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: And then also helps us kind of see through some
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: of the, uh, cultural, um,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: narrative around marriage and the negativity around it. It's just
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: incredibly helpful. I, I give it to everybody, even, uh,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: singles in our church. I'm like, man, you should read
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: this book. If you want to be married, like one day,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: this is an incredible book, incredible resource, so recommend that.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: The meaning of marriage by Tim Keller, whom we hear
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: right here on Kwave weekdays at, uh, 2:30 right before
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Pastor's Perspective and also weeknights at 10:30, or is it 10? No, 10:30. So, uh,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: thank you, Kathleen, for calling in today on Pastor's Perspective.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: That wasn't so bad, right? Calling into a radio show.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: You
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: did great. She,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: she's a pro. I don't know. I don't know about
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: this first time stuff.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: God bless you, Kathleen. Thanks for calling in today. 888-564-6173
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: is our number. Jess calling from Buenna Park. Hello, how
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: can we help you today? Oh, hi, hi, Brian. Thank
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: you for taking my call. You bet. What's going on?
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, I have a question. Sometimes I when during my off,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: I have time, uh, I have to share the word
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: of God, too, you know. But the more I share
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: to this person an open question,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Uh, I, it, it, it makes me like, I was
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: confused with the question. She wants to answer. I don't
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: know how to answer. The question was, because she started
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: reading the Bible and she said, uh, in Acts said,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: To repent and be baptized for the remission of sin. And,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: and then he said, why is the two sinners that
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: was crucified beside Jesus when he said that remember me
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: when you put in your paradise.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Why did he, he, the Lord said, right now you
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: will go with me to the party. He was not baptized. So,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: are we going to still obey the church when they baptize?
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: And I was thinking to myself, oh, I was baptized too.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: And then he called to the Paulen epistles.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: That said, I thank God that I baptized none of
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: you except like that. So she was confused and her
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: question confused me. So how can we connect those with
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: inefficient way.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Over the grace of God by faith, we're saved. If
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: when we are saved, we are righteous in His sight.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: The sin, that, that our sin makes us unrighteous. So
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: are we still going to, because she's not baptized yet, right, right.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Mike,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: we'll start
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: with you.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's uh such a great question and, and I
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: love how it, I mean, first of all, that's a
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: key verse that people use in the, you know, is
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: baptism essential for salvation kind of a thing, um, but
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: it also like you're touching on it actually touches on
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: the very message of the gospel itself and once again
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: if I, it's, it's the fall season and we're doing
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: the reformation series at church, so you know, the reformers
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: really recover just this idea of justification by faith and.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: You know, Ephesians 2:8-9 kind of encapsulates this. We are
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: saved by grace through faith, not of works, and many
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: scholars would point out, well, a lot of Christians have
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: taken works just in a very broad sense to refer
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: to any sort of moral acts, probably more specifically, it's
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: referring to acts of the law, the symbolic boundary markers,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: whether that's circumcision in the Old Testament or even under the,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: the New Testament, that would be water baptism.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: That were saved by grace through faith, not of works
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: at all. So the thief on the cross is saved
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: in exactly the same way that any of us, including
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: those of us who have been water baptized, are saved.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: It's salvation by grace through faith. Now, having done that,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: we are called to obey, to live a life of faith,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: and water baptism is a public initiation.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: Into the gospel, into the gospel community, into the family
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: of God, and so we're commanded to do it, but
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: in the case of the thief of the cross, did
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: he disobey? He was not allowed. He was nailed to
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: a cross. He's dying, so it's not an act of disobedience.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: In his case, not getting water water baptized would not
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: be a sin. He simply was not able to do it,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: by the way.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: This is not just sort of a, a biblical historical thing.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: This is contemporary today. What about people who are dying
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: in hospitals hooked up to machines, and they receive the
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: gospel message? Imagine if people say, oh, well, that's not enough.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: You gotta unhook yourself from these machines and go, go
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: on down to Corona Domar and, you know, set up
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: an appointment and hope the pastor's not busy and then
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: you can.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: And be saved. No, they are saved right then and
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: there in the exact same way that the thief on
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: the cross was. If they're able to be baptized, then
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: of course they should, but there's gonna be many scenarios
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: even today where people are gonna place faith in Christ
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: in the very last minute, their dying breath, just like
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: in the thief on the cross, and just like the
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: thief on the cross, they will be with Jesus in paradise.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Uh, any thoughts, sir? Yeah, I just think it's, it's
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: important for us to realize, I, I love Mike's point,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: just the thief on the cross was not able to also,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: he died that day and he did not come back
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: to life. And what baptism is, is it is a
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: marker of who belongs to Jesus. Now we're in the
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Old Covenant, you know, as Mike said.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: The marker of God's people was circumcision. That was the
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: sign of the covenant. We would say now, you know,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: under Jesus, the sign of the covenant is that we've
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: been baptized into this community and identity as Jesus' people.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: And so, it really is, you know, as we often say,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: and it's very simple, it's an outward sign of an
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: inward reality, right? That we belong to Jesus, that we
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: have had our sins forgiven, that we are Jesus's people,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: and this is just the way that we tell the
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: world and
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Now it's the story that we tell in our church,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: you know, we, uh, we have this phrase that we
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: use all the time, remember your baptism, right? And so
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: we also want this to be a key kind of
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: marker in life of disciples that they can go back
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: to and say, oh, on this day, I remember, I
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: said I belong to Jesus. I, I marked that I'm
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: his now and and to go back and recalibrate always
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: to that identity and through that event. So.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Jess, thanks for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: And now let's talk to Al, or is it AI? No,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: it's Al in San Bernardino. Welcome to Pastor's Perspective, Al.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you, sir. Uh, I had a question about um
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: giving my complete control over my life to Jesus Christ. I,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: I've accepted him as my Lord and Savior, but I
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: have a hard time understanding how to give complete control
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: over my life to Him and, and how to let
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: him guide me and all that because I seem to
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: be a little controlling over my life and, and doings.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: So if there's a verse in the Bible or, or,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: or some sort of guidance that I can get towards that.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Hm, sure.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Hm. Yeah, my, in most recent years, one of my
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: favorite things to do is to point, um, Christians back
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: to Jesus himself and the life that he chose for himself.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: And I think the Gospel of Mark is probably, um,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: along with probably the Sermon on the Mount, um, there's
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: just such clear pictures of Jesus' habits.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Um, and also, you know, teachings about what he required, uh,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: for those who would be his disciples. And so I
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: would encourage you to, um, begin reading through the Gospel
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: of Mark and to begin making a list of the
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: things that Jesus did, and the things that Jesus said,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: and to record those things that you are and are
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: able to actually follow.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: in as his disciple. We have this kind of three-part
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: saying that we say at our church for discipleship, that
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: we are called to be with Jesus. And the way
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: that we do that is through a study of scripture
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: and prayer, through, you know, sitting quietly in the presence
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: of God and
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: And contemplating the person of Jesus, the teachings of Jesus,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: but we're also called to become like Jesus. And so
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: we need to put into practice, uh, the teachings of Jesus,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: the habits and lifestyle of Jesus, and then we need
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: to do what Jesus did, right? We need to preach
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: the gospel, we need to help the poor, we need
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: to
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Speak truth to injustice and unrighteousness. You know, there's these
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: things that Jesus did. He brought healing to those who
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: are afflicted by the devil. And so, uh, I think
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: if you go through the gospel, you can mark down
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: these things and you can see in your life, oh, well,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: this is an area where I'm not following Jesus. And
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: that's where we get to course correct, right? And
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Continue to course correct and continue to course correct until
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: these things become our own. They become a part of
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: our own habits and our own character. So Jesus spent
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: a lot of time on boats in the book of Mark.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: He did. He did indeed. Yes, we're gonna have to
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: do that too. Maybe, Mike, what would you say?
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with Char and um, I guess, I mean.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Christianity is a way of life, you know, it's, it's
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: everything it's not, you know, just one thing, you know,
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: you know, reading information or, or just doing certain actions,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: religious activities, it's literally everything and I, and I love
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: reading through the Gospels for this reason because again when
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Jesus calls disciples, he calls them to be with him.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: And they see how he does everything that's what's so
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: cool and we don't have everything written as John even
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: said there's, you know, we don't, the world itself couldn't
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: contain all the books that could be written about Jesus,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: but you think about it, they knew everything they knew
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: how Jesus talked, they knew how he walked, they knew his,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: his rhythms of life, they know.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Like literally imagine them watching how he interacts with the
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: tough questions of the Pharisees and, and then he's around
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: people and he's, he's healing people, but it exhausts him
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: and then he'll withdraw and he'll get away from everyone
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: just to be alone with God and then he comes
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: back and, you know, and how he, all this stuff.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: So I think remember it's, you know, pace yourself, it's
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: not like you're gonna one day it's all just gonna
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: click and you're gonna be perfectly fine sanctification's done you're,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: you're just like Jesus, it's, it's a way of life
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: and it's the rest of your life and.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: That verse that popped, you know, a verse out of
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: many is Romans 12:1-2. I beseech you, therefore, brethren, by
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: the mercies of God that you present your bodies a
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: living sacrifice wholly acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service,
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: and do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: present tense, ongoing, be continually transformed by the renewal of
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: your mind that you may prove what is that good,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: acceptable and perfect will of God and like we just taught,
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: you know, uh, through.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Romans chapter 10 faith comes by hearing, hearing by the
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: word of God, and so I think again you want
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: to continue to hear and read the word of God and,
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: and I, I think it's reading the Bible for ourselves
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: is important, but I also think we, we need a
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: word preached to us from outside even as somebody who
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: studies to preach every single week, and I do it
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: all the time. I even noticed maybe even because I preach.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: I noticed sometimes again I need to hear that voice
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: from outside, not my own head, but the word of
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: God coming to me from outside and speaking to me
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: and then responding because we don't want to be hearers
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: only so continue to set yourself under the word of God,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: reading God's word, hearing God's word, hearing it preached in
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: the church, in the community and doing the things God
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: tells you to do.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Al, thanks for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: We've got to take a quick break and then we'll
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: be back with more of your questions. The number to
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: call is 888-564-6173. Pastors Char Broderson and Mike Chaddock are
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: here till 4, so call in 888-564-6173.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: This is Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: us today. My name's Brian Perez. I'm here with Pastors
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Char Broderson and Mike Chaddock. The number again is 888-564-6173.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Stefan next. Stephanie is next. She's calling in from Virginia,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Stephanie, we'll wave to you.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: What's your question for us today?
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Uh, so my question is for my six year old daughter.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: She's had a couple of questions before, um, but this
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: one is about Cain and Abel. She, her specifically, her,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: she said her question was, why was Cain happy when
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: he killed his brother Abel? Wouldn't he have been sad? And,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: you know, we kind of had this conversation about what
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: sin nature is, the sin of pride.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: And whatnot, but she specifically wanted to see what you
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: all had to say. So that's why I called today. Well,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: thank you, Stephanie. Mike,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: wow, what a great question. Um, and obviously, and I think,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: thank God she just doesn't understand Kane's logic and where
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: he's coming from, because when you think about this, when
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: you ask why wasn't he sad when he did it, well,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: He was the kind of person who could do it
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: in the first place, which means the condition of his
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: own heart, he had already become so hardened and bitter
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: against his brother. It had developed prior, so, you know,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: reading the story is important.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: So, you know, when Cain and Abel both come to
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: present their offerings to God, Abel's is accepted, his isn't,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: and already there you see something important about Cain instead
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: of Cain repenting or going saying, oh, this is the
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: offering God wants. I don't just bring God whatever I want,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: worship is giving to God what God wants, right? We.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Actually just talking about this earlier, even in church worship,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: it's not about getting what we want or giving what
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: we want, it's doing what God wants instead of aligning
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: himself with that he's like, hey, I feel convicted and guilty.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: I look bad. I'm not accepted. I'm instead of me changing,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna get rid of the one who's doing the
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: right and making me feel guilty, so he's already becoming
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: hardened in his heart. He's resenting his brother to the
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: point where he wants to get rid of him, getting
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: rid of him.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Is the solution and when we sin, this is the
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: thing too, um, when we sin, we're no longer the
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: same person we change sin change us it's formational we
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: actually become a different kind of person and so I
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: think when Cain does this his heart gets even harder.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: It was hard enough to where he could kill his brother,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: but now after having done it, his heart is solidified.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: And I think you know this is a good warning
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: because I've, I've talked to Christians who've told me, man,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: I'm really tempted to commit this sin and um I
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: think I'm gonna do it because I know I can
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: just repent afterwards and God will forgive me and they
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: kind of test me because they're like, what are you
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: gonna say? Oh God won't forgive you? Are you gonna
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: say that Pastor Mike?
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: And my answer is, look, God, will obviously God will
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: forgive you. My question is, first of all, there's still
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: consequences from your sins regardless. They may not go away.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: And second, how do you know that if you go
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: through with this, you will not become the kind of
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: person who's not interested in forgiveness because sin hardens the heart.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: It's what it does. You can even see this in
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: the whole story of Pharaoh. He's progressively over and over
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: and over hardening his heart. When God speaks to him
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: and he hardens his heart, he gets worse. He's, he's
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: in a worse position than before. So sin is a
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: very dangerous thing. We shouldn't presume.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: on the grace of God just because we can say, hey,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: God's good and He's gracious and kind and compassionate, slow
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: to anger, abundant in mercy, but that doesn't mean I'm
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: gonna even be a repentant person if I go through
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: with this. Sin is dangerous and we shouldn't play around
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: with it.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: Stephanie, what do you think?
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's helpful. That's helpful. Yeah, I think it's just
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: again that conversation of, you know, yes, this, this making
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: this sinful decision, it can change the heart, you know, it,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: it is sin nature, and he gave himself over to
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: sin and his heart was hardened. So I think it's
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: a good, yeah, just to we'll continue that conversation, but
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: that is helpful. I appreciate you taking my
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: call.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Wonderful, great question. So glad you're having those
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: conversations. Oh, for sure, for sure. 888-564-6173. Darren in Oceanside,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: you're next. Hello.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Hello, how are you guys doing?
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Good. How are you, Darren?
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Good good good I'll make it quick. My question is.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Why when people call out for God.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: He doesn't show up.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: We've never seen God.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Can you give us an example? Is something going on
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: in your life? I mean, I think we've all experienced
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: this to some degree, but what's going on with you?
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Sure. Uh, well, with me, it's, it's, uh, I'm, I'm Catholic. Um, I,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: I believe in God. I believe in a version of him.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Um, I, I go to church, not enough, um, but,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: you know, to get to the core of, of what
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: you asked me, I'm just curious about why we've just
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: never seen God, you know, I, I, I believe he's there,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: but I, I, I'm on the fence with believing because we, we,
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: none of us have ever seen God, you know.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I mean, you're referring like to today, no
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: one has seen God, uh, living in, you know, this
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: last 2000 years. Is that what you're referencing? I mean,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, we live, you know, in a
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: time between the times, right? We believe that Jesus is
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: the Son of God who came into the world to
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: rescue and redeem the world. He that he did that
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: through his life, death, resurrection, his ascension to the right
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: hand of God. And Scripture says that he's ruling and
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: reigning and he's working all things to this end where
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: the kingdom of God will reunite with earth.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: be a new heaven and a new earth. But yeah,
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: right now we're in this waiting period. We're in this
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: time between the times, as they say. And yet scripture
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: says that when Jesus ascended to the Father, he sent
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit. And so we can know God personally
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: and we can actually experience the presence of God, the
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: presence of Jesus with us now, though there aren't, you know,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: necessarily those physical manifestations, you know, of God or maybe
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: those audible manifestations of God, um.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: That we long for. And yeah, I mean, you know,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: to your point, Darren, I've had, um, moments even recently
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: in my life where I really, really needed God to
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: show up in a big, big way. And he didn't, uh,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: answer my prayers. And yet I still trust that he's
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: with me, that I'm not abandoned, that I'm not forsaken,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: and I trust that he is still accomplishing his
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Uh, will in the world, which is to bring about
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: his kingdom, which is to bring about salvation.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: And so
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah, I, I wonder if there's maybe a more
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: specific way that you're asking God to show up that
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: maybe we could speak into.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Well, it, it's a little more specific would be, I
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: was watching a documentary, um, and unfortunately, it was about
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: a serial killer, but to my point, if he said
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: to this man that he was about to kill, he said,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: if you believe in God,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: I'll give you 20 minutes right now. We'll sit here
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: and wait for him to show up.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: And he never did and he killed the man.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Hm, yeah, it's pretty sick.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Mike, any thoughts?
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there's different, completely different ways we can
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: address it. First of all, um, I like the way
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Char was going at it and I'll address it from
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: a completely different way. Let's go back to the Bible.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: What is, what is the biblical storyline, um.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: The whole story of Israel actually is that you can't
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: see God. Like that was actually what made Israel different
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: from all the other nations. So this isn't like a
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: new modern insight that we scientific modern Americans, oh my gosh, hey,
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: there might not be a God. Why is that? Oh,
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: I can't see him. Actually, the Israelites insisted, this is
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: very interesting, the Israelites insisted you can't see God and
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: that your attempt to make God or define God.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: You actually destroy the very idea of, of the divine
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: because at that time, of course everyone figured, oh no, you,
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: you can see the divine, right? And we can actually
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: picture them carve them, put them in a temple, give
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: them offerings and gifts, bow down to all this kind
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: of stuff and Israel was unique, not in that they
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: had temples all the ancient Near Eastern major cultures had temples.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: The weird thing about Israel, if you looked at their
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: inner sanctuary, you'd see there's no idol there.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: It's not there because God is spirit. So Israel has
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: always said this. So I, I just point out to
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: people that this is not a problem. As a matter
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: of fact, I think this actually validates that Israel's idea
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: of God was not some primitive thing. Primitive would be,
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: you know, you can make God with your hands, and
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: God is something in creation. No, the very fact that
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: God is spirit and you cannot see Him.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: In his essence, um, is, I think is actually true
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: to life to, to this very day. That doesn't change.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: We don't have to adapt our theology of the nature
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: of God because of modern science. No, it's still saying
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: God is not a part of the material world. That's
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: why you can't see him. Why can't I see an
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: immaterial God with my material eyes? I think I've answered
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: my own question.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: So the way that Israel could see God was through
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: God's actions, through his speech, he would speak through his apostles, prophets, etc.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: So there's, that's the biblical sort of theology idea. And
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: then of course, like Char said, then the Christian idea
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: of God, this is so radical is that God becomes
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: flesh in the person of Jesus. But even then think
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: Nobody walked around thinking they were looking at God, you know, the,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: the apostles didn't even think so, right? Like they're walking
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: around with them and they're rebuking Jesus when Jesus steals
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: the storm and Mark and they get up, they're like,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: who is this that got in the boat with us? Well,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: if they knew it was God, they wouldn't have to
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: ask that question. They were constantly being shocked by Jesus
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: and challenged, who is the Messiah? What is the Messiah?
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: What is the Son of God? Who is Jesus? Is
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: he just a rabbi? Is he more? So they're even
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: wrestling with it, so.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: I think you and I.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: All of us, we're in that same company and I'm
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: actually preparing to teach Job in the new year and
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: Job wrestles with this very thing. Oh, and by the way,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: I think one way we can answer too is, you know, I,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: I'm a sinner. I've fallen short of the glory of God.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: God doesn't owe me anything. He doesn't have to show
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: up or answer my questions or like who am I to,
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: to even demand this? I'm, I think I'm, I must
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: think a lot of myself to think God ought to
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: show up for me every time I ask, but Joe
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: puts forward this guy who's blameless and upright.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: And yet kind of the situation you're saying like he,
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: he's a good, good man. He's, he's the best and
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: everything seems to go wrong and Job is wrestling with
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: the question, where are you God and why aren't you just,
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: not just where, where are you?
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: But why aren't you just and Job's arguing that and
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: I think a beautiful thing about the Bible, if any
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: of us like you find ourselves kind of like daring
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: to ask that question, what God, you, I don't, I
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: don't think you're being just. I don't see you. What,
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: what's going on? That's actually in the Bible. God's own
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: revelation gives expression of this and actually invites us to
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: bring this experience, bring our questions in, and I actually
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: think journeying with Job.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: is, is a good thing. At the end of the day,
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: God does speak to him, but at the same time,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: he waits a long time and he never actually answers
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: the question that Job wanted to know. He simply reveals
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: to him what I just said, which is, you come
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: to that realization, you are God and I am not.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Most of life is us trying to occupy the place
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: of God, cast judgment on God. I, if I made
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: the world, I'd do this. If this were the situation,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: I'd intervene in this and this, and Job finally relinquishes
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: all of his pride, says, you know what.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: I spoke out of turn. You are God. I am not. Yeah,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: there's an incredible chapter in a book, uh, by a
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: man named John Stott called The Cross of Christ. That's
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: his book, uh, but a chapter on theodicy, which is,
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of a heady term for the, um,
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: justification of God. You know, how can God exist in
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: a world like ours, right? And, um, there's just some,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: some beautiful, um, insights that John Stott has in that chapter.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: But I'm also thinking of there's a story.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Um, in Elie Wiesel's book, The Night, or it's just
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: called Night, and Elie Wiesel was a child in the
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: concentration camps of Nazi Germany. And there's this moment where,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: you know, just the Jews are experiencing just horrific persecution, suffering, torture,
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: all these things. And there's these, um, I think two
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: men who are hung up.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: And, you know, all of the, the men in the
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: concentration camp are almost forced to watch this lynching that happens.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: And there's a man behind Elie Wiesel, who's protesting, Where
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: is God? Where is God? Where is God? And Elliee
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Wiesel says something that I don't think he ever realized
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: what he's actually saying. He says, he's right there on
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: the gallows.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: And this is something that is so incredible about, you know,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Christian doctrine and theology that we believe that in the
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: person of Jesus Christ, God has become one of us,
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: and he has suffered the worst of human evil, injustice, suffering.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: And so the answer, you know, to, to our suffering
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: is the God of the cross.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: That he has uh taken on the human plight, and
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: not just to empathize with us, but actually that in
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: the cross, Paul says in Colossians, that Jesus was doing
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: something they're just so mind blowing, that he was actually
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: killing death. He was swallowing up evil and injustice and actually, um,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: you know, Colossians says he was taking the handwritten requirements against.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: and nailing them to the cross are spiritual accusers who
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: condemn us of sin. He made a public mockery over them,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: and he triumphed over them at the cross. And so
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: the cross is actually the moment where God has dealt
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: with the issue of evil.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: And the scriptures promise that at the end of time,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: God will make all things new. He will heal all injustices,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: he will judge all sin and wickedness, he will reward
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: all righteousness, he will raise up everything that was lost,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: and he will give us a new world. And so
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: we might not have, you know, you know, Darren, to
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: your point, these, we've got these stories where where was
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: God in this moment? Where was God in this moment?
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: And Jesus answered that question to Mary and Martha. They said,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: where were
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: You, if you had not been here, my brother would
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: not have died. And he says, I am the resurrection
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: and the life. Whoever believes in me, though they die,
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: they shall live. So our answer to this question really
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: does come back to the person of Jesus Christ. He
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: is the answer to our question about where is God
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: in suffering and where is God in evil.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: Well, and I think this is what makes Christianity very
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: unique is that it hinges its faith on a historical fact, right?
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: You think about it, a lot of religions, they're not
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: rooted in history. They don't need to be.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: It's just like here's a worldview, here's a story, here's
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: how we deal with good and evil, you know, and,
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: and then try it on and if it kind of
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: works for you, you can do it and if not
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: you can throw it off, but the apostle Paul stakes
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: everything he says on the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: He says everything hinges on this. If this is not true,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: then our faith is completely in vain. Everything we're saying,
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: he said, in other words, if that's not true, don't
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: believe anything else that I say we are the most
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: pitiable of all men, but.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: If it happened, then think about the import of this.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: Not only is all this stuff true, but on any day,
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: my worst day where the worst fears come true, the
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: thing that I have feared has befallen me, and I
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: dare to ask the question. I'm compelled to ask the question, God,
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: do you care? Where are you? The Christian would look
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: back to a fact of history, something that really happened.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: And we can say this thing my, you know, I
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: learned when I was a kid. I asked Jesus, how
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: much do you love me? And Jesus said this much,
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: and he stretched out his arms and died.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: On any given day, no matter how absent I think
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: God is, if that's a fact, then that fact can't
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: be changed. No bad thing I ever experienced in life
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: can undo this fact. Jesus loved me and gave Himself
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: for me, and one day where he is, I will
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: be also. I can preach that message to myself because
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: it's rooted in the fact of what God has done
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: in history through Jesus.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Darren, thanks for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: And now here's Anthony and Orange. You're on with Char
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: and Mike. What's your question, Anthony?
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much for taking my call. I
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: super appreciate it.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: Uh, my, my question is in Luke. Um, so I
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: had a question about Luke, I think it was chapter 10,
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: verse 41, 42, I think, about Martha and Mary. Like
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Martha was running around cooking food and cleaning up and
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: doing all that stuff. I super duper, like, uh, I, I, uh,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: I kind of like align with Martha.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: And it's like, it's hard for me to understand, like,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: she needed help and, and, you know, Mary was just
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: kind of like hanging around with Jesus. And I understand,
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: you know, you love Jesus and you want to be
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: at his feet, but she needed help. So, I wanna
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: understand why Mary's decision was better than Martha's.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: What do you think, guys? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: think about what's happening here, that Jesus is God in
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: human flesh, and he is revealing mysteries. He's unlocking the
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: kingdom of God for disciples, and Mary and Martha have
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: the opportunity to be, you know, front and center.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: seated there, to be disciples along with the 12, you know,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: along with the 120. They, they are special friends of Jesus.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: And I mean like, I, I feel like we now,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: you know, in hindsight can look at the situation and
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: be like, Martha, sit down.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: Like, you've got this moment to sit at the feet
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: of Jesus and receive this, and yet your hospitality is
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: causing worry and upset. Like, yeah, but if, but if
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: Martha didn't do all that stuff, who was gonna do it?
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. I mean, in other stories we've
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: got Jesus multiplying loaves and fishes. So obviously, Jesus isn't
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: super worried about hospitality, and I think, you know, maybe
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: this is one of those things, right? Because people like you, myself,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: we lean towards the Martha, we want to push back
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: on moments like this. And so,
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: You know, there's obviously personality types here, it would seem,
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: even in John 10, right? There's different personalities between Mary
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: and Martha and the way that they're processing, the way
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: that Jesus speaks to the two of them. He knew
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: them well. And so maybe this is one of those
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: areas where this is the spirit.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: You know, pulling you in and being like, hey, you
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: need to sit down. You need to spend quiet time
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: in the presence of Jesus. And I've noticed in my life,
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: because I'm a doer, because I like to accomplish tasks, um,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of my prayer time and time with God, uh,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: was turning into justifications, excuses, lists and things like that.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: And I had to settle into, um, being done with
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: all of those excuses and kind of beating myself up,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: and just to sit in God's love for me, and
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: just to receive it.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: And that was a very transformative moment in my life. So,
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe just from, from one Martha to another.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I laughed, yeah, I laughed because I, I think,
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: you know, I totally get it when you look at
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: you're like, wait a minute, you know, she's taking care
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: of business and it's, so it's kind of like this
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: picture that we're getting of, of Martha and Mary, and
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: it's like, man, Martha's.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: Proactive she's a go-getter. She's getting stuff done and here's
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Mary lounging around and that seems to be the way
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Martha feels about it. And again, it's, by the way,
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: this isn't the only time we get a picture like
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: this actually in the Lazarus narrative in the Gospel of John,
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: who's the first one that runs out when they hear
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Jesus is coming. It's not Mary. Mary is chilling back
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: at the house, it's Martha. So you, you do kind
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: of get this little composite, uh, picture where man, Martha's just,
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: you know, she's going, going, going.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Um, but Jesus also reveals where this, think about this,
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Jesus doesn't condemn her for not being merry. He doesn't
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: say anything because she's, you know, doing stuff. He's actually
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: calling out what's driving her activity.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: He says to her, and I think in a very
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: loving way, right? He repeats that name, Martha twice, which,
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: you know, God, you know, Moses, Moses, this, this calling, uh,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: to a summoning to himself, and he says, Martha, Martha,
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: listen to this. You are worried and troubled about many things.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: It's underneath. It's what's going on. You have the problem
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: isn't you have busy hands and busy feet. The problem
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: is you have a busy heart.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: And I, and I think that's the thing, and we,
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: you know, some of us may more than others, right?
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: Like there's Martha's and Mary's, but I think some of
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: us again where we get stuff done, we're go-getters, we
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: accomplish it, but the problem is that can be coming
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: out of a heart that has not come to rest
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: in the gospel. We have not come to rest.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: In our identity in Christ. We're, we're constantly worried about
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: the next thing. It's kind of like the challenge with
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: Israel in the wilderness with Sabbath, right? Why did, you know,
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: when God promised, I'm gonna provide for you. I've been
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: providing you 6 days. I'm even gonna give you a
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: double portion on the 6th day, so you don't have
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: to worry about it. But guess what? Some were worried
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: And they, they figured, well, you know, but you never know,
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: the gravy train could end on Monday, so we can't
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: necessarily trust God, so we're gonna be busy when we
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: should be at rest. Remember, Shabbat simply means stop. It
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: means come to a place of rest, and I, I
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: think that's what Martha is not doing here. The Lord
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: is with her.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: And she needs to set aside that busyness and come
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: to rest in Jesus to take upon herself the yoke
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: of Jesus. Again, I think it is important to point
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: out this is not against being industrious and working hard
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: and getting things done. Hopefully Mary isn't doing this regardless
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: of who's around or when Jesus is gone. Uh, we
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: wouldn't want that either, but I think there certainly is
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: the issue of the heart and being at rest in
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: the gospel.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: That's great. I love that you tied that back into
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: Israel's story too. I was just thinking about this passage, uh,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: this week, um, for thus says the Lord God, the
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: Holy One of Israel, in returning and rest, you will
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: be saved. In quietness and in confidence shall be your strength,
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: but you would not.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Like this is actually what God wants for us, you know,
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: and Jesus' offer, come to me, all you who are weary,
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: heavy burden, I'll give you rest. Take your yoke, take
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I'm
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: gentle in heart. You know, it's just like, that's what
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: God wants for us to rest in Him. And, and man,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: the temptation of all the things, all the worries in
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: the world, right, to really push against that. Can I
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: actually rest in God? Can I actually
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Um, trust that he's gonna take care of me, that
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: this is gonna be taken care of. I feel like
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: I've got to have a handle on the wheel, you know,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: kind of thing. So, so
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: good, and I think, and you know how we read
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: this because we can't hear the tone of Jesus' voice,
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: we could assume this is, oh, this is a rebuke
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: and all this. I think this is a gift. Jesus
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: is blessing Martha right here, you know, come to me,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: will give you rest. Jesus sees a need.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: You know, he's not beating Martha up. It's like, Martha,
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: I wanna give you a gift. You're missing out on
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: it right now. Come to me. Learn from me, and
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: you will find your rest.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: What do you think, Anthony?
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, that was awesome. You guys are, you guys rock.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: I appreciate your time. Yeah, absolutely,
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: Anthony. Thank you, Anthony.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: Thanks for calling in today to Pastor's Perspective, and that's
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: all the time we have on today's episode. So sorry
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: that we couldn't get to all of your calls, but
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: you know what, we'll be here again tomorrow between 3
• 54:49
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• 54:52
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• 54:54
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• 54:59
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• 55:02
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• 55:05
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• 55:18
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• 55:21
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• 55:24
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• 55:26
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• 55:29
  Speaker 1: you guys for Char Broderson and Mike Chaddock. I'm Brian Perez.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: Thanks for watching and listening to Pastor's Perspective.