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Finding Your Writing Process with Rebecca Hanover · WriterCon

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This week on the writer Con podcast. But I always say the sort of
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cliched, But I guess cliches are cliches for a reason they're true, which
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is your journey is totally going to be different from anyone else's. So just
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throw out all your ideas of, you know, stay in your own lane.
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Kind of another cliche because everyone's everyone's writing journey looks so different. Welcome
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to writer Con, the gathering place for writers to share their knowledge about writing
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and the writing world. Your hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and
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author of the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award winning
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author the wantln Files book series The Writers. Greetings from the writer Con crew
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me and Laura, and are sound engineer Jesse Ulverrich. This is our first
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episode, I think since Thanksgiving and the spe Steve Very episode. I hope
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y'all had a great holiday and now you're probably gearing up for the a list
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holidays yet to come. Laura, did you do anything new this year over
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the holidays? Anything new over the holidays? No, not really anything?
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Did some of the same stuff? Did you write every day? I work
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on a book every day. That's writing my very own. But I was
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working frantically on book related projects and writing projects, and I was most thankful
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for a return to full health after a rough year of medical not fun things.
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Absolutely, Jesse, how about you. Anything distinctive about Thanksgiving other than
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new felines in the house. I think, yeah, no, just I'd
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say a standard Thanksgiving. I mean, I guess it was less stressed than
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past Thanksgiving. I'm still recovering from I think two Thanksgivings ago where my my
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dad overheated during dinner and like lost, like fainted pretty much and like was
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not a responsive for a couple of minutes. I had to go to the
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hospital. He's fine, he was fine, But that was that was terrifying,
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and I'm still recovering from that. So Thanksgiving is always a little weird
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for me. Now, Oh well, yeah, that sounds yeah. Determine
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what caused him to He was having a like a weird medication switch, where
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like he was on a medication he didn't need to be on anymore, so
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like his blood pressure dropped precipitously on top of like eating a lot of food
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and being under a very bright light that my parents in laws have now replaced
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in their dining room. And so but yeah, that was trying to pick
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up a full human, adult human being like as dead weight is a terrifying
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experience. So so every Thanksgiving that doesn't happen is a plus. Wow.
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Thanks for giving us the proper perspective. Be thankful, all right. Our
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interview today is with the wonderful Rebecca Hanover. She's the author of The Last
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Applicant, which was just released in October. It's a twisty, turney,
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jaw dropping. I'm not exaggerating when I tell you this is full of surprises,
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thriller debut, debut writing for novels. But she is already a New
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York Times bestselling author because she wrote the Ya Duology that means two books called
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the Similars. And get this, She's got an Emmy Award for writing for
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The Guiding Light. We will be talking lots and lots with a Rebecca,
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But first the news Jesse take us away. When I sent out the notes
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that I send to my partner so we're all on the same page, I
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deliberately gave this story a bland title in the hopes that Jesse wouldn't read it
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in advance. We'll see if that worked or not. I'm seeing the image
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now after the PowerPoint, and it's an AI story. You know there's going
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to be an AI story, but this one is about a Swedish startup company
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called per. I know you don't want to know that this is spelled not
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like a cat, but like p I r R Jesse. That's a Swedish
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word that means a state of excitement. Just stella, all right. This
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is an app that an AI app that has been trained on wait for it,
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a gigantic library of smut, yeah, pornography, and it is ready
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in waiting to help you fantasize with an AI. Here's how it works.
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You write the first your starl was worse than mine, Jesse. I saw
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that. You write the first paragraph, and then the AI takes it from
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there, and then maybe a few paragraphs later. You can choose what happens
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next and like I guess the spiciest ever, choose your own adventure. Yeah,
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I'm turning around on this. I'm turning around on this now now you're
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interested. I like how it involves, like you have to start it.
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I like this idea. Or you can step in and write some of the
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story yourself. Anytime you want, or let the AI take over. You
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can even collaborate with uh with you know, every again every I think on
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the last two podcasts, I've proposed that we take up some kind of project,
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and clearly someone needs to take up this one, but it's not going
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to be us. I'm not even going to propose that we collaborate with Per
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for a story. But it has caught on with other people. According to
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the company, they have more than one hundred and fifty thousand users spend on
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average twenty two minutes longer than I would have expected in a single session with
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the Sexy Romance novella co writer Ai Per. Gosh, guys, I don't
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even know where to go first, Jesse, what do you think about this?
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Man? This episode's definitely going to be rated not for kids, don't
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I do that? Smut? Yeah, smut mommy. Yeah. Well,
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honestly, this is it's a funny, fascinating idea for the for the for
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the proportion of the population that can be stimulated by words alone, Like it's
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an interesting idea, Like I wish I wish there was a tool like this
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for just regular stories where you like have to start off and then you can
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sort of options and maybe it kind of it probably kind of does exist with
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the sort of chat GPT world. But listen is whatever floats your both as
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long as you're not bothering other people, like go for it. Will I
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be trying this maybe as a joke to see what happens, but now now
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I'm kind of curious. But uh yeah, I mean listen again, as
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long as you're not breaking a laws, you can have fun with it.
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I just want you to know that if I pick up your iPhone later today
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and the app per pops up on the screen, we're gonna have a talk.
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She was just doing research for the pod, right right right. It's
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in the name of the podcast, re search, of course. Uh huh.
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So what are your thoughts on this, Laura. I don't tend to
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I'm kind of an unusual female reader, and that I don't tend to gravitate
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toward romance, and I I don't I don't go in for rodica either for
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the most part. But for the most part on this, oh, I
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had an audiobook script sent to me once I read, so we had different
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definitions of heat level, but her idea of PG was not yours, but
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it was very sweet and kind when I wanted to back out that. But
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anyway, I you know, you're not fruds and I just think if this
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makes people happy, and like Jesse said, if you're not harming anyone else,
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it's okay. Like it. It doesn't bother me that erotica exists.
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It doesn't bother me that most women like to read romance ever makes you happy
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if it's not running someone. I just don't want to see anyone harmed or
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exploited in any way. So let me just make that clear. I'm not
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saying anything goes. No one should ever be harmed or exploited. But something
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like this, that you're you're using your own creativity to write a story,
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I seems okay. Well yeah, I'm is this making me sound really old
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because I think I'm with Jesse. I think this would be more fun of
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for weren't all about porn. You know, you were collaborating on a story
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with a computer. That could be fun. But yeah, I mean well,
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my question was going to be, just like with with the lawsuits against
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Chad GBT, like, is this stealing ideas and tropes and plots from erotica
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novels that already exist and are not getting paid for that? Probably exactly an
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excellent point. I was going to ask, where did all of this come
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from? I mean, is it exactly? And if this is coming from
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something that is exploitative in any way, then I would have to say,
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yeah, I don't know where they found their smut, but I suspect it
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wasn't hard to find, given the state of the internet these days. Okay,
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news story number two. I'll start with the questions Jesse, how many
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books do you have in your house? Oh? So many? Are hundreds?
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Oh yeah, I'm seeing about twelve over your shoulder right now. Yeah,
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well, these are new shelves in my office. I have so much
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stuff. But like I can take a picture for our listeners if they want
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to see our library that is also our dining room, to see how many
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books we have, which is many? Okay, now, Laura, within
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five how many books do we have in our house? A thousands? Not
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going over. We're so over one thousand. I think they can see a
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thousand behind you. And maybe we've got all as well with me. And
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that's just one room. That's not even the room with the most books in
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it. But anyway, there's something shelves, and yeah, there's a point
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sort of that I'm asking this because you gov and that's a website. I'll
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put links in the show notes. Polled more than twenty nine thousand Americans about
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their book owning proclivities. You will be pleased to know that at eighty five
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percent of Americans polled said they owned at least one physical book. That doesn't
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mean their collections are huge. One in five or twenty percent say they own
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between one and ten books, fourteen percent go up to twenty five books,
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thirteen we'll go up to fifty. But overall, including e books, at
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least sixty nine percent of all Americans own one hundred books or fewer. Although
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I have to qualify that by pointing out that six percent apparently don't know how
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many they own. And I don't mean, like Laura guessing how many thousands.
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I think it's more like they don't know if it's three or four.
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But anyway, another twenty five percent own at least one hundred books, four
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percent are between five hundred and one thousand, and only three percent own more
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than one thousand volumes. Laura, I think you and I are in the
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one percent. I always wanted to be in the one percent, but a
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different percent. As a child, I owned more than the majority of most
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Americans. I think Christmas and birthdays, all I ever asked for was gifts
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of books, and I have quite a library even as a child. So
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this is a little bit astounding to me. This sounding to me. That's
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interesting because one of the things this pull pointed out that the numbers don't really
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vary between people who do have children and people who don't. Like I would
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have thought anybody with children, you go out and buy a bunch of board
13:20
books to read at bedtime, right, But apparently that's not really a factor.
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Here here's the question, like, when they asked this question to those
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people, did did they make sure to ask them like children's books count,
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because I think I would think a lot of parents would one either get rid
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of those very quickly or give them to another friend who just had kids or
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whatever, or not even consider them real books at least that's somebody without kids,
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Like that's something that would pop up in my head. It's like I
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wouldn't consider those to be actual books so well physical books, because each of
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my books growing up, I mean, they all had their own little collections
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go people. Yeah, people are people are lying because I know every parent
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has those passes books they do. Even if you don't want them, you're
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you're you're giving them at some point. So the flaw with any poll,
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of course, is that people don't always say the truth. They say what
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they wish were the truth. But if people were going to fib on this
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pole, they'd act like they had more books, don't you think, rather
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than fewer. And yet we wo, I would the majority of the people
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saying they have one hundred books or fewer. Again, and you're eighty five
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percent said they owned at least one physical book. Fifteen percent of people don't
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own one book, not even not even not even the Bible, Like it
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just blows my mind, not even a textbook from school or any I think
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a book was home. I think a lot of people are forgetting the ones
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that are in their atticts or in closet somewhere. Could be Okay, we've
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run this stry, So I'm taking us back to the porn story because that
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was way more interesting. Here is something I didn't tell you about the company
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per It was founded by two people, both women, possibly not what you
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suspected. Here's a quote from one of them, whose name is Beatrice Bushati.
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Remember that these people are Swedish, but I will translate. She said
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quote. We are female founded, we have a female perspective, but the
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app is for everyone. We want to create a playground for fantasies. We
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want people to have fun and to fantasize, because we also believe in what
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that could do with people. You know, at first I thought that was
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kind of what you were saying, Laura, and then I'm because we also
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believe in what that could do with people fantasizing with an ai. I'm not
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sure what she's talking about at that point. Can somebody explain that to me?
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It's probably a translation maybe, or perhaps they're thinking, how this could
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you know? So, even though I said I don't read a lot of
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romance and no erotica intentionally, I do have one author whose books I like,
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and they would probably be they would be classified as a paranormal romance.
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And you know, when you start reading those and you're getting into it,
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maybe those those fantasies can help you connect in different ways with your partner than
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what you might not have done. It'll give you some ideas and some things
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that you can try. You can keep it fresh. Maybe it can improve
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relationships and keep intimacy strong, just because you too some different thoughts and ideas.
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On that positive note, I think we should although you can never get
16:59
as much. But still, let's wrap this up. Jesse, cue up
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the music. Let's talk to Rebecca Hanover. So welcome to the podcast.
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Thanks so much for having me. You bet okay, traditional first question,
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if you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be?
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Such a such a loaded question, but but I always say the sort of
17:36
cliched. But I guess cliches are cliches for a reason they're true, which
17:41
is your journey is totally going to be different from anyone else's, So just
17:45
throw out all your ideas of, you know, stay in your own lane.
17:49
Kind of another cliche, because everyone's everyone's writing journey looks so different and
17:57
you can only you know, you can only write the stories that you can
18:00
write and that are right to you. So I will. I'll throw in
18:04
a third one, eyes on your own eyes on your own paper. But
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I have to tell myself. I tell myself these all the time. So
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yeah, I think that's so important because you could really lose especially. I
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love that because it's so difficult not to compare. You look out and you
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see other people doing different things, which we immediately relate to better things.
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And it's exactly, particularly in the publishing world today, so much is changing
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so fast. Imitation is not the way to get ahead. I feel,
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right, that's that's true. I mean when you think about you know,
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so many successful authors there, they really have done what felt right to them,
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and you know all those like, oh this is what's hot right now,
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you know who knows. I mean, there's there's truth to that,
18:56
sure, but that changes so fast. And if you're if you're just chasing
19:00
trends, it's never gonna It might work out, but it might not at
19:04
all, and then you might miss writing the thing that was going to be
19:07
really great, you know. So I just think, especially with social media,
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like it's just impossible to no one can cope with the amount of compare.
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You know, if you're comparing to every post you see, you're still
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mad. You'll just go go mad. So right, no one gets everything
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is something I had to tell myself another when I realized that although my books
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were selling, I was probably not going to be the next Falkner. Right,
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no one gets everything. Be glad for what you got. Right,
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could not agree. And I've been to funtnerself. I'm actually from the like
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didn't he write on the wall, because he was written on the walls in
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his office. He had some struggles. I'm sure, I mean, you
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know, I'm sure it wasn't all that easy and he probably didn't have it
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all so right, I could not agree, could not agree more. All
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right, great opening. Now tell us about your new book, The Last
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Applicant. Yes, yeah, so it is a domestic suspense slash psychological thriller,
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however you want to describe it. And it came Yeah, thrilling suspense,
20:23
well hopefully a little a little scary. I've been told it's, you
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know, not the type of thing to scare you out of your mind,
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but hopefully keep you up late reading and then kind of disturb you a little
20:34
bit. And yeah, so it came out last week of October, and
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it's so it is my adult adult debut. I do have a young adult
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series that came out called The Similars that came out about five years ago,
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which is why you're a New York Times best selling author. Right, Yes,
20:53
exactly. That was from from that do all not a bad title to
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already have when you make your debut. Oh my gosh, well that was
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yeah such a Yeah, that series was kind of I mean, it was
21:10
many years in the making and yeah, so so proud of that and also
21:15
just all all the readers that I connected with over that series. How did
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this compare? Like we were just saying, you're already established as a New
21:22
York Times bestselling author from that that work. Now this is your debut as
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an as an adult thriller. You think you'll keep going in both genres one
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or the other. How did how did? How do you feel about it?
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Yeah? Great, great question. I'm definitely going to keep going in
21:40
the thriller genre. I'm working on a second one right now, so unrelated,
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just another standalone. I I mean, I love ya so much also,
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and you know it's kind of my first love, so I absolutely hope
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to still write ya one day, but I do. I am a mom
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of three kids. They're twelve nine, twelve nine, and four, so
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there's a limit to I mean, we all have a limit how much we
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can do at one time, So I can kind of only focus on a
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book at a time, so we'll see. But to answer the first part
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of your question, I think it didn't feel like a debut in the same
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way that my Ya books did in the best way, because I was much
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more calm about it, like much more so. That was really nice,
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Like I knew the drill, I knew what the launch day would kind of
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feel like and be like. And it's just managing your expectations is so much
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easier when you when you know what you kind of know what to expect absolutely,
22:44
And speaking of your previous writing, you knew you weren't going to get
22:47
out of this interview without that. Not only have you previously written for the
22:55
TV drama The Guiding Light, you won an Emmy for it. Right,
23:00
how did that happen? Oh my gosh, Well, I lived in I
23:06
had moved to New York City after college. This was so in my twenties.
23:11
I you know, I was living in a six floor walk up where
23:15
you dragged your laundry up the stairs, and I think my roommate and I
23:18
like sort of split a one bedroom. I don't even I kind of repressed
23:22
it, but I mean it was they were wonderful, wonderful years, but
23:26
it was you know, the struggle of like we're going to be struggling artists
23:29
or whatever. So really long story shark, I ended up being getting the
23:33
wonderful opportunity to be an intern on the show and then a writer's assistant,
23:37
which was like the greatest at the time, felt like the greatest thing that
23:41
could ever happen to me. I mean, Guiding Light was the most magical
23:45
place because we would film right on forty we started off. When I started
23:48
off, it was on forty fourth Street and we would shoot right upstairs from
23:52
where you know, the production office was. So everything was happening like and
23:56
I had been a theater, a theater in English majors. It felt like
24:00
it felt like a play. It felt like being you know, a part
24:03
of yeah yeah, yeah, putting on a play every day. Right,
24:07
it was like the Gangs all year, we're gonna you know. So it
24:11
was just like the minute I walked in there as an intern, I was
24:15
like, how can I stay here? I just this is amazing. So
24:18
I was really lucky. So I started as the assistant. I started writing
24:22
scripts, and I had a couple of mentors who were some of the established
24:26
writers, and they were incredible and they were so talented. I mean,
24:30
the thing about soaps, as you know, there's a new show every day
24:34
of you know, every weekday. So that's five hours of material. If
24:38
you think about a streaming show, it's like it might be ten hours of
24:41
material for the whole the whole season. That's it, you know, so
24:45
you know, you everyone is working that much harder with you know, limited
24:51
budget, limited time to make something really truly great. And so honestly,
24:56
I mean, this is why soap actors can go on set and do take
25:00
because they know the lines. They have it down. They're not going to
25:03
screw up. Everyone's like time is on, you know, on the line.
25:06
So it was the most amazing place to learn. And I got to
25:10
I would get to write once I became a writer. I got to write
25:12
like a script per week, which was is kind of unheard of otherwise.
25:17
So it was it was a dream. It was truly a dream. Well,
25:22
may I ask why you left? What a fabulous Oh I never would
25:29
have left, but all the soaps went off the air pretty much except for
25:32
whatever. I think there's one or two left. So yeah, in two
25:33
thousand and nine, it ended. Yeah, we would all we would all
25:40
still be there. Don't believe me something, you know, we just I
25:45
think we just missed the opportunity for that. It's okay, time book.
25:57
Then you went on and you wrote this, Okay, I want to come
26:00
back and talk about and the different genres because I also write in different genres.
26:07
I'm always kind of happy when I stumble across someone else who's doing that,
26:11
because that isn't necessarily what anyone would ever advise us to do. Right,
26:17
that's actually hya you're moving into adult thriller. How did those happen for
26:22
you? That's a great, great question. I know it's it's interesting because
26:29
now you're right, I keep thinking about YA and adult but when you throw
26:33
in the TV writing, it's it's a lot of different skill set over quite
26:37
a period of time. But I know what you mean. I have definitely,
26:42
you know, mix things up. I think to me, it's all
26:49
kind of the same. It's almost like if you're into tennis, can you
26:53
switch to pickleball? Like? Yeah, why not? You know so?
26:59
I don't from a I mean there's different thing. Of course, there's different
27:03
skills and different structures and things about each one. But at Guiding Light,
27:07
I learned to outline and have a really solid foundation. So I mean,
27:12
I still use save the Cat. I think it's universal across across mediums.
27:18
And I'm a huge plotter, which maybe I'll save you from asking, I'm
27:22
a huge platter. I don't write anything, not always always, it's always
27:26
asked, so that really and then the character work and on a soap opera,
27:30
the character work is gold. I mean that's really it doesn't work if
27:34
these long running characters you have to feel like they live in your live in
27:40
your TV and they live in your home, right, So yeah, I
27:44
mean it what the switching to adult was not really strategic so much as I
27:48
had this idea for the last applicant that I really wanted to explore. But
27:55
you know, honestly, so many YA authors specifically are writing for adult now
28:00
as well. I think there's a little bit of I think people are actually
28:03
being advised to be to diversify a bit. So no, I'm not going
28:07
to turn around though and write and now write like historical fiction like I'm gonna
28:12
say with it. You mentioned before that you just really enjoy YA and then
28:19
you had this great idea. I mean, I'm I think we're of the
28:22
same mind here. I think a good story is a good story. And
28:26
you talked about writing what you are compelled to write, what you're moved to
28:32
write, the stories that only you can. I mean, I write women's
28:33
fiction and I write supernatural suspense. Again, like you, I don't plan
28:38
to go write in every other single genre, but the ones that I like
28:41
writing in, I really enjoy. That's what I love reading, That's what
28:45
I like writing. Same. And yeah, I probably have read, you
28:49
know, hundreds of thrillers as well as you know, many many of the
28:56
YA books out there. So yes, those are so I mean to me,
28:59
they're both various escapist. One is more really escapist, like we're all
29:03
channeling our inner you know, fourteen year old when we ready, and a
29:07
lot of it's like those of us who grew up on like Hunger Games and
29:11
Divergent and you know, Twilight, like there's there's a real escapism, wish
29:15
fulfillment like all that kind of stuff. With thrillers, you it's still completely
29:22
an escape. I mean, you know you you're reading, but it's you
29:26
know, usually the protagonist to someone who's a you know, close to your
29:30
own age, so you can kind of really get in their shoes, but
29:33
again, the heart of it is similar to me. Do you think those
29:37
YA readers will mature and follow you into thrillers? Because I know I get
29:45
some crossover. I have a little ben diagram of my readers. I only
29:48
read one other, but I've got some that are that's amazing that you have
29:52
that you have that data. I yes, I mean I so it's that's
29:59
super interesting. I'll have to talk to you sometimes about how you put that
30:02
data together. So it's really because I don't know, the truth is,
30:07
I don't know who. Like I have some wonderful folks, you know,
30:11
who show up on Instagram and message me your different things, But I don't
30:15
know how old they are. I mean, you know, and I'm not
30:15
going to are you are you fifteen? Right? So some but a couple
30:22
of them have showed up on good Like a couple of them showed up on
30:25
Goodreads, like a year before this book came out to be like I can't
30:27
wait for another Rebecca Handover book, And I was thinking, I hope this
30:30
person's not twelve, because this new book, this new book is like edgy,
30:36
right, But I don't think they were. I mean, they might
30:38
have been a thirty five year old woman who just likes Ya because so many
30:42
of us do, so many of us, you know, So definitely there's
30:45
crossover. I haven't run the analytics. Yeah, I mean, is that
30:49
your worst worry? I'm astounded. And this does show my age, how
30:55
you know, the new adult and the new wave of young adult, the
30:59
fourth wing and whatnot is really very profane. This generation of readers does not
31:04
seem to care about language. Profane language. I guess right now, you're
31:12
right, I probably shouldn't be. Also, it's very clear if you read
31:18
the description, you know, I think people will know what they're getting into.
31:22
So but yes, I think I think there's definitely been some some folks
31:26
who have followed me over to this new space, which is lovely and so
31:32
appreciate. Well, I think you touched on this. But what's coming next?
31:36
Are we going to do more Ya? Or is the last applicant the
31:40
first of something? Or where are we going next? Yeah? So it
31:45
is the first, you know, of course, of adult thriller for me.
31:48
But I am working on Slash finishing up a second one. It's unrelated,
31:53
So just another standalone thriller with another female protagonists who's got a new set
32:00
of problems and and then we'll see I mean, I I really would love
32:07
to kind of continue on, you know, on this trajectory and and right
32:10
write even more of these and then you know, the YA is always there.
32:14
I think for me, it'll need to kind of be the right idea
32:17
at the right time for the YA. But have you considered a serious character?
32:23
Seems to be what the publishers want these days, some characters that can
32:29
repeat from what puts to the next right right, that's not on your horizon.
32:32
I'm getting the impression. No, no, but you've you've You've piqued
32:37
my interest for sure, so maybe, but not the name. Thank you
32:42
the acknowledgements. I will in like four years when I come out with that,
32:47
I will, I will. Sounds great. Uh, well, this
32:52
has been a blast, Rebecca. Thank you so much for being and uh
32:57
I hope we can have you on again. Yes when that next this book
33:00
comes out? Okay, yes, I would love it, And thank you
33:02
so much. Good Bett, Thanks so much. Laura. You have a
33:15
book that's just perfect for Christmas, don't you. I do. It's called
33:20
Christmas Spirit. It's set in New Orleans. It is filled with whispering ghosts,
33:27
from Christmas, past, present, and maybe even future. And it
33:30
is currently on sale for ninety nine cents. Why, I well, will
33:36
not get much better than that, I hope ever, because you should be
33:40
compensated much more. But it's Christmas, so it's Christmas. Merry Christmas.
33:45
And I see Jesse's put up the slide of an anthology called Christmas Tapestry,
33:52
which I put together. I've got a story in it, and so do
33:55
many of my writing talented friends, writing talent as opposed to my writing untalented
34:01
friends. You know what I mean, my talented writer friends is what I
34:05
was going for. And the reason we call it a tapestry is because it
34:09
didn't just lock into one genre. You know, it's not all mystery or
34:15
a man's or inspirational. It's a little bit of everything from people who do
34:20
it well, using the series characters from their novels in a Christmas short story,
34:27
in many cases, the first short story these characters have ever appeared in.
34:30
So I you know, Christmas or not. I thought this was a
34:35
terrific opportunity. And the writer Con magazine also has holiday issue coming out.
34:39
Jesse's got that up there too. Laura tell us what all is in this
34:44
wonderful issue. Like every issue, it is packed with inspiration and information for
34:51
aspiring authors everywhere, But this time it is like a warm cup of cocoa
34:57
and packed with holiday themes, advice, words of wisdom from some excellent writers.
35:04
We have how to market your work during the holiday season. We have
35:07
an interview with Santa Claus. We have so much stuff I can't even think
35:14
of it all right now, But it's a terrific issue. It's so good
35:19
humor from Barry Friedman, giftless for writers from Renee, and so much more.
35:25
All right, until next time, keep writing and remember you cannot fail
35:32
if you refuse to quit. See you next time.