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Demonology as Devourment Without a Devourer with Oren Ben Yosef · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: What I.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to the occult rejects Today we're stepping into
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: a very strange and very necessary conversation about demons. But
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: not in the cheap Hollywood sense, and not only in
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: the medieval Grimore sense either. We are not just talking
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: about horns, pitchforks, inverted crosses, or names widespread and old
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: exorcism manuals. We are talking about the possibility that the
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: demonic has changed this costume for the modern world, and
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: maybe it no longer has to appear as a monster
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: outside of us, because it has learned how to operate
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: through systems, screens, stories, machines, appetite, repetition, and the low
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: consumption of the human subject. Our guest today is orn
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Ben Joseph, author of the upcoming book Demonology as Devironment
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: without a Devour, the Movies of Keanu Reeves, and Other
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Ways to Study Demons. This is a book that takes
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: demonology out of the narrow category of superstition and pushes
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: it into philosophy, theology, occult studies, film technology, and modern culture.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Instead of treating demons only as external spirits, with names
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: and ranks. Aorn looks at the demonic as a logic
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: of devironment systems that consume their users, images that overwrite reality,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: messages that erase their own medium, virtual doubles, feedback loops,
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: machines that rewrite desire, and cultural forces that seem to
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: possess people without needing a single visible possessor. The publisher's
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: description specifically places films like The Matrix Constantine john Wick
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: and shows the black mirror at the center of this investigation,
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: which already tells you this is not going to be
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: a basic conversation about culture. This is about what our
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: movies reveal about the spiritual condition of the age. And
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: that is exactly why I wanted to have this conversation,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Because if you study religion, occultism, technology, propaganda, media, or
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: ritual long enough, you start to notice that possession does
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: not always look like someone levitating in a bedroom. Sometimes
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: possession looks like a tension being harvested. Sometimes it looks
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: like desire being manufactured. Sometimes it looks like a person
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: slowly losing the ability to tell where their will ends
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: and the machine begins. Sometimes the demon is not a
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: being with a face. Sometimes the demon is the process
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: that eats the face. So tonight we're going to ask
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: a difficult question. What if modern demonology is not only
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  Speaker 2: the study of spirits, but the study of what devours us.
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  Speaker 2: What if the demonic is not merely an evil creature,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: but a method, a rupture, a technology, a hunger without
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  Speaker 2: a mouth, a system without a soul, and a force
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: that can consume human freedom while pretending to offer liberation.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Before we introduce the rest of the panel, I do
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: want to mention we do have a website, a cult
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Research Institute dot org. If you're into reading. We have
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: tons of information by multiple contributors, and we got t
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: shirts up on the site if you're interested. Fun fact,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: they're all based on the inside of the eyeball. And
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: now let me introduce the rest of the rejects. I
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: got Judith the Loon. What is going on, Judith? How
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: are you?
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: I'm fine? Thank you for having me, Nick. I look
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: forward to this conversation, Lauren, and for everyone else you
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: could find me on spreaker x and YouTube as the Loan.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah, very excited for this now, Uren,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Ben Joseph. Anything that I happen to leave out or
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: anything you like to mention or a plug. Please let
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: everybody know where they can find you and what your
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: deal is.
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  Speaker 1: I'm really happy to be here and thank you for
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: the wonderful introduction for the book. I think it's right
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: on the spot. I can be found on Mainly I'm
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: writing on Facebook, which is kind of all I think,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: but it's still this is what I'm doing, and a
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: little bit on Instagram on the new stef And I'm
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  Speaker 1: really excited to be here and talk about this book
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: coming out on July twenty eighth, which is getting soon
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: by the amazing people of the Sixth Book Publishing, And
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: thank you for having me.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, of course, one thing I did want to
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: ask you, just like right off the bad when people
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: hear the word demonology again, like I even kind of
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: mentioned in the beginning, you think a Grim War's Exorcisms possessions.
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  Speaker 2: Your title immediately changes the field by I think calling
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  Speaker 2: demonology development without a devour. What do you mean by
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: that phrase and why did demonology need to be redefined
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  Speaker 2: in that way for you?
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  Speaker 1: I have this the entire frame of mind come from
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: an old debate about the demons and this stuff, and
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about it, really sin. But first,
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  Speaker 1: the thing I'm trying to grasp in this book and
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: in all the texts that I'm writing now, it's I'm
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: trying to live out the anthro homorphizing of demons, the
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: thinking of demons as like scary humanoid beings, as things
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  Speaker 1: that we can understand in a way. And to me,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: what I'm trying to propose is that the demon is
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: always beyond our ability to understand. And if we think
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: we can understand the demon, then something is wrong because
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: and I'm trying to see the demon as as a
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  Speaker 1: philosophical problem first before adding its religious, mythical traditional addition
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  Speaker 1: to it. The demon is something that interferes, interrupts, disrupts, negates,
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  Speaker 1: And in order to I think Father explore this problem,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: I take the demon aside for a second, and I'm
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: trying to look at the demonic the effect that the
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: I call it like gravity, well of inhumanity that sometimes
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: you can fall slip into. And and I'm not the
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  Speaker 1: first person to do this, And I want to tell
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: you about the first filst debate between that happen and
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: in the fifteenth century, if I'm remembering correctly, now, between
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Jean Bodine and John Whale, and it's about witches and demons.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: And Jean Bodine is this he's very famous up until
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: today for its for him political philosophy. But he wrote
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: extensively about witches and demons, and he was furious and
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: the supported the trials of witches and the executions of
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: witches and torments of which is like, we can assume
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: that a lot of horrible things happened because of him
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: to two helpless women and sometimes children. And his his
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: claim was simple, once you you, out of your own
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: free will, decide to work with the devil or with
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: demons through witchcraft, you're guilty. You're you're bringing evil to
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: the world, You're a danger to society, to the state,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: and so death penalty straightforward. And he's writing very firstly
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: against John Well, who wrote a very important I think
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: critics before Budne and John Ware. He is he's a
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: student of the magician Agrippalis Agrippa and he's a doctor, physician,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: and he's writing in defense of the witches that are
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: being prosecuted. Is he wants the prosecutions to stop, and
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: he's he's completely he believes in the existence of demons,
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: and he believes in the in witchcraft. But he his
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: claim is I think, very very radical. And this is
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: something that I'm taking from him and putting it in
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: some new clothes with technology and other systems. Were what
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: were says is that these women who are being prosecuted
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: are like poor, delusional, helpless women who are under the
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  Speaker 1: control of demons. They are not someone in demons. They
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: are being controlled by demons, and so they need help.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: They're not to blame, there to be helped to. And
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: and I'm taking aside this horrific prosecution of women for
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: being women. I'm thinking about the philosophy of the demonic
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: effect on people. And this is what I'm trying to use.
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  Speaker 1: Like you cannot you can make you think you can
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: approach demon and and and summon it or say you
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: know something about it, but in the end, you are
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: under the influence of something that is completely in human,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: completely ignorant to your own will and what you wish
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: to do on this earth, completely blind to anything human,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: and it just acts through you in order to do
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: something else. And and this is something that we can
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  Speaker 1: see today in actually, like there are several articles that
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: you can find today by philosophers who try and approach
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: AI through demonology, for instance, because of this effect it
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: has on us. Rather than thinking that, Okay, I have
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  Speaker 1: this AI a large language model that I can use
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: in order to gain power. No, it gains powerful using
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: me in it. So this is what I'm attempting. This
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: is where I start, Like I'm beginning as I'm trying
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: to look at the outside, the world as it and
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: it has its demonic pits that sometimes you can slip
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  Speaker 1: into and fall into and lose control over ourselves and
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: lose control over our own sovereignty. And rather than thinking, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: there's a catalog of demons and I can maybe summon
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: them or even know something about the demon, because I
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: find this a little I have my problems with this,
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  Speaker 1: like we're knowing something about something that is completely inhuman.
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  Speaker 1: And this book is, in its essence, it's a secular
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: book and it's it doesn't it doesn't approach the demon
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  Speaker 1: as like a soldier or the devil or or anything
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  Speaker 1: anything of the the odd traditions that are usually accompany
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  Speaker 1: this demon. The demon or the demonic is h m
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  Speaker 1: hm what I call it before, like a gravity well
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  Speaker 1: of inhumanity, something something that can take that can strips us,
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  Speaker 1: strips us away from our own free will, sovereignty or
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: knowledge or action. And in the book I'm put something
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  Speaker 1: against against it and amusing it. For the movies of
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Keanu Reeves, namely The Matrix, Constantine and John Wick. We
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: can talk about it like these three different words are
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: basically the same world. World, I argue with different mechanics.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: And in the in this world Chiano Rieves, he acts
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: like the magician, like the magician as it's as it
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: is described by the famous and the Giordano Bruno Jordana Bruno,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: he writes about the magician. It described the magician as
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: the wise man who who has the power to act
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: in the world. And this is something we sometimes don't
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: have the power to act in the world. And so
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: in the book, I'm putting these two forces one against
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  Speaker 1: the other. The force of humanity that can strip you
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  Speaker 1: away of any free will, of any control over yourself.
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  Speaker 1: And you can see that in traditional stories about demons
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: as well, and the magician who can who can see
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: this and can act in the world. And this is
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: like the basic premises of the of the book.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: One thing I just want to ask you real quick,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: do you think do you think like sometimes demons could
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: just be like aspects of the human mind.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: So here this is an important question that you can
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: read about, like in in different magic books about demons
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: and like, and there is like a debate whether there
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: are external or internal to the human mind. And while
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I'm writing about the demonic as something that is external,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: we cannot we cannot ignore the the internal aspect as well.
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  Speaker 1: And maybe we can go back to writers such as
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Young and who described that the the unseen, unfelt to
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: law that we have in the brain and sometimes can
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: can affect us. So so my answer would be yes,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: like it can be something which is internal. And one
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: of the inspirations for the book actually was something that
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: I have experienced during a by pass and retreat, which
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: was like completely internal experienced, unrelated to to anything else.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: But what I'm what I'm trying to focus here is
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: like and maybe we can maybe we can integrate it,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: like to the point where there is an external souls
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: that can affect you and like ignite this internal thing
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: inside of you. Maybe this can be some like a
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: nice integration of the two ideas.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Like yeah, you know, I was thinking of that actually
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: what you started answering, because I have like looked at
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: it in certain ways to where it's almost like kind
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: of a combination of an outside stimulus and then how
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: I want to perceive it inside and react on it.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: So it does look like that might be kind of
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: like both going on at the same time. Maybe you know,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: I don't know, that's hard to explain, but kind of
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: like just the way my nervous system would react to
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: whatever's bothering me in my paradigm, then some some switch
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: is going to go off in my head to make me,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I guess, kind of receive it and act out demonically whatever,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: you know, like that.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: The yeah, and like I think that at this point
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: we need to have maybe the experience or the yeah,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: I would say the experience too, to look at this
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: situation from the outside for a second and to think,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: am I am I doing something that is in line
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: with what I'm believing in and what I'm like, Like
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I give you this example of like I'm having this
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: great day and I'm saying I'm going to to bed
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: early tonight, and then I do the mistake and I
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: open X tweet and someone I don't even know write
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: something horrible against something I believe in and there goes
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: the night. Now It's it's like a very mundane everyday example, but.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: It's true exactly, that's true though, yeah.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's exactly how a blind algorithm who doesn't
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: know me, like he knows how to trigger me obviously,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't know or or it doesn't care about oorent.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: It cares about interaction and and and it's like it
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: affects me now before I go to bed, and I
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: can waste now three three hours arguing with people I
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: don't even know about something unimportant. And this is exactly
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: how something external can affect me and trigger something internally
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: inside of me. And then this is where I should
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: stop and say, is this like necessary? Is this is
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: something that you plant on doing, you plant on going
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: to bed now, and now you're sitting in arguing some
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: stranger about something which no one will remember tomorrow or
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: like even even like I'm sounding a little I'm sounding
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: a little like a conservative in ins as as as
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: far as it goes with technology. But but but I
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: think this is like exactly the point, like when we
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: do scroll and like, okay, I can I can decide
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: like I'm going to watch now hundreds of unrelated videos,
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: and a lot of philosophers and thinkers a lot about
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: it recently. It's okay, But the idea is that when
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: I'm done, I don't remember what I've seen and so,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: and this is an important moment because while I was
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I was doom scrolling, I was like completely negating myself.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Oren does not exist only he only exists as a
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: node for the social media to manifest in the real world.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: So the algorithm is being manifested through my doom scrolling,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: but nothing like I'm blank. I'm just accepting whatever it
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: gives me. And so this is again a point where
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: I'm losing my sovereignty over myself and a moment where
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: an algorithm negates who I am. Actually, so yeah, so
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: we have to look at it like from both points
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: of view of the external one and the internal one.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: So you're absolutely right. I agree with it completely.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you, there are a lot of
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: movies and shows out there with this premise. There is
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: there any particular reason you specifically chose Keanu Reeves films.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I began reading this writing this book actually from the
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: part that appears in the end of it. I wrote
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: about the series Black Meal, and I wrote like twenty
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: or filty pages, and something happened and I lost, like
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: not only these texts, but a lot of text that
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: I wrote, like several gigabytes of information lost and demonic
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: effect on the computer. And I began again, like from
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: the start, I lost everything. I began again from the stuff,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: and I started with the movies of Keanu Ribs and
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: I stay, I say it in the introduction, like I
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: like his movies. It's not like something against against the
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: movies themselves. But I've noticed, like I really like the
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: movie Constantine, and in the comic book comic books about
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: the characters and movie happening in three different worlds and
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: three different let's call it like metaphysics, and we can
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: like like in all of them, like Keno Rieves is
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: with the black suit and either white or black shirt
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: and tie. But this is a little beyond beside the point,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: but we can see how we begin with with the
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: easiest movie like Constantine. In Constantine, I say it's the
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: easiest movie because it's a movie about God and the
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: devil having the world on our world. So we actually
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: live in a world with between angels and demons and
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: they're trying to manipulate us and use us in their
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: own world. And then we can go and I'll jump
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: to John Wick and in John Weik God is dead,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: like this is a completely godless world, completely natureless world.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: There is no nature, there is no God. There is
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: only the world of men with the holy symbols. And
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: the holy symbols are there in order to support and
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: enhance this horrific and inhuman system of laws and bureaucracy.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Everything is under strict ruts and they keep saying it
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: rules of what separate us from the animals. And in
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: this world people are also being manipulated by this blind
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: system of rules, like he doesn't care about specifically about you,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: about him or her. It's it needs to has its
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: own order, and in its order like we we, all
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: of us, are being manipulated and changed. And in the
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: matrix God returns, but in the gnostic way of admire
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: the machine, and and and and so we find ourselves
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: again in a world that we think it's like a
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: real world, and then we find out it's like on
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: a simulation. And and there are like a lot of
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: parallel elements in this movies, like a neutral place where
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: everyone can meet.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: I think it's deeply that the series exactly. I think
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: they even say that they were inspired by Valentina's I
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: think they said that Valentine inspiration.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure. I like, it can't be a coincidence.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I know, I know they were inspelled
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: by one of my favorite favorite philosophers, Jean Boudrial, who
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: really didn't like the movie in the beginning. In the beginning,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: like not to neo, like Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Anderson. He's
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: hiding this secretly legal computer stuff inside a mock book,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: and the book is simulation and similar crab by Jehan BOUDRIALO.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: And the saying welcome to the desert of the real
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: the desert of the real is something that Bodrial writes
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: about and and so and so Boudria, like he talks
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: about how the reality vanishes beneath our own mapping of meaning,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Like we we say things that are supposed to point
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: to things in reality, but they no longer point at
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: these things, and like the matrix went completely different directions.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: And BODRIALI died in two thousand and seven, really didn't
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: like the movie. But in I think it's the second movie,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: and there is a war like the flying Neon and
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Trinity or flying in this spaceship on the real world.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: And I'm putting like, I'm not sure it's the real world,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: and I will talk about it soon.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: And for a.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Second, like the world is covered with the man made clouds,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: like black clouds to block the sun, and they penetrate
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: the clouds for a second and they see the sun
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Sophia the real God, like they see the anking, holy, clean,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: pure son, and they sit and and say something like
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: this is wonderful or I can't believe or something like that,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: and they go back to to Mayhem and and yeah,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: this is like obviously there is there was some gnostic
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: element in the thinking about about this movie. And he
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: in this movie again like you, as a human being
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: living in the world, you find out that you're You're like,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: this is not your my body. My body is somewhere
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: else in some incubator, and I'm just like projected into
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: a simulation. And I want to say two things about
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: about this simulation, which I mentioned in the book. And
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I think it's like really really important because some of
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: us think that we are living in a simulation and
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: then I'm writing about this book as well in this
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: book as well, and we think about how, okay, I
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: am projected into this reality virtual reality, and I act
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: as if as if I'm a free agent in this reality.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: But why do we think that this simulation only read
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: us and project us, project us into it, and not
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: write us, like write the thoughts and the feelings that
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: we have. Why do we think if I'm living in
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: a simulation, there's no guarantee that the thoughts are mine,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Like I may be like a computer game character, not
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: like any sovereign independent or an inside the simulation. Someone
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: is activating the simulation can put thoughts and action into me.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: And the second thing, which is I think extremely important
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: in the movie and and and not only in the movie,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: because we keep saying like to get out on the
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: metrics and and and stuff like that today when we
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: talk about things that we have to wake up from
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: and waking up from is again from from Agnostica a tale.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: There is no way for me or to know that
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: he is in the real world once he gets go
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: to the to Zion and everything, this can be another simulation.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: And actually in the last movie there is a hint
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: that this is actually another simulation because it gets like
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: superhuman powers in the real world as well. It can
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: stop the robots, like he's like, like you stopped the
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: bullet in the simulation world. There's some one of one
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: of the scenes, and I think it's in the in
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: the Field in the Field movie, we think, like Neo,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: like everyone else, that Neil woke up from the simulation
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: to the real world. But he may have woken up
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: from the simulation to just another simulation in which Zion
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: is in the center of the earth and and there's
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: a wall and everything so so and and this is
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: again exactly where I'm putting the demonic in the technology
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: in the case of the matrix, in how it makes
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: us think about that we are free while we're actually not.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: We're actually not in control of ourselves and we actually
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: are diminished inside a reality that is either taken from
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: us or not hm hours to begin with. And to
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: me this is like extremely like it's it's it's it
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: can be depressing if you think about it like too
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: much personally, but but it's really interesting, like it's really
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: interesting to think about it in in like current actual
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: stories about AI and and technology in particular and even
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: in in in futuristic or maybe neo futuristic scenarios of
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: space expansionism. I'm talking about this. I'm mentioning it a
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: little bit in the book as well. There is a
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: book that is affected me tremendously show it. This is
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Daniel Dudney's Dark Skies, And this is Daniel Dudney is
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: like a political philosopher. He talks about space extensionism in
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: like the most like real way possible, like nothing. He
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: has nothing to do with anything about your code, anything
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: about aliens, nothing, And he argues that this will mean
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: the end of mankind, not because space extensionism will fail,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: but because it will succeed. And like as a child,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: I always dreamed about like maybe some people my age
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: can can can relate to to how we fantasized about
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: flying to the Moon by the year two thousand or
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: something like that, And I always I always wanted this
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: to happen. And now after reading this book, I'm seeing
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I'm convinced. I'm like I convinced me that this can
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: be extremely dangerous for mankind because as we go beyond
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Earth through the Solar System, not only walls will be
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: much like on a much larger scale and what have you.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: But also mankind will begin to deteriorate because a colony
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: on the Moon will enhance itself technologically and genetically in
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: one way, while a colony on the asteroids belt will
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: enhance itself in a different way, until there will be
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: completely different species found in the Solar System now. And
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: so I'm taking this book which basically tells you that
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: going to space will will disintegrate mankind, and I'm saying, like,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: this is this is like a demonological book. This is
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: this book is is in in it's like contemporary futuristic idea.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: It's it's about like the demonic how it negates mankind
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: through the nothingness of space. And so I think to
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: go back to your question about the movies of Keanu Reeves,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: because a little I want to side with a little.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: But but but I think it's all relates is we
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: can see through this three worlds, how traditional demonology, how
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: the world of like bureaucratic systems, and how the virtual
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: technological AI alien world of the matrix. They both, they all,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: all three of them have these demonic essence of complete
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: human negation. In john Wick, there are action scenes like
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: of shooting like John Wick shoots again is his enemies,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: and they happen in public spaces, and people are just
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: passed by, just walking as if nothing happens, and it's
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: not like this is important. I think it's important because
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: as I see it, this world has negated and diminished
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: us to such an extent that we are manipulated into
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: non reaction, and so there is no like from this
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: point the distance to stimulated. Pelson on the metrics is
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: not so big.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: There were two things I wanted to ask you. Oh.
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: The first, have you heard of Stephen Mayer or Mayer?
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: I think it's mayor.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: He is he.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: I just caught one of his lectures, and it has
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: to do with the programming part that you were talking about,
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: like us being influenced, because according to his research, which
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: I'm still looking into, they went down to the like
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: the within the atom and they found ones in zeros
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: within that, which is actually scary thing, which means that
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: that HM thought process of you saying that we could
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: be programmed and we may not, which is I'm on
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: the fence on this one. May not truly have to
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: free will is kind of scary.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, on that one.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: I haven't I haven't read or heard about this. But
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: but but this relates to another point that I'm writing
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: about in the book about zeros and ones and binary language.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: And it's about how basically I want I want to
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: go into into detail, how like the founder of this language,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: long before the world computers, like this, this language of
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: zeros and ones was supposed to be a proof that
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: you can talk about something with nothingness and wholeness like
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: one in zero, which is the language of God, and
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: to prove like creation by God. And and and then
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: they found out that there is a parallel in ancient China,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: the e Ching code of like complete like straight lines
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: and broken lines, which was like undercoded for for a
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: lot of very very long time. And then they saw
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: like it's it matches like something like a binary program
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: and like binary language. And and so fast forward to
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: our days or to the days of of even first computation,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: like all all all code language is essentially based upon
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: the attempt to prove that some divine language of zeros
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: and ones put into our own digital conversation right now,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: which is like an endless flows of zeros and ones
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: and and yeah, and and we can see it, like
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: I'm sure I didn't hear. I didn't hear about what
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: you're just telling. And if this sounds fascinating, I have
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: to I have to to read about it. And to me,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: it reminds me like to go on a like a
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: bigger scale than the ingredients of a night of an
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: atom but but like metal and anti metal, like something
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: that negates another thing like and so we can see it,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: and I'm not sure what to make about it, and
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: and I am not I'm not. I don't think that
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: we live in a simulation in the in the in
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: this sense, although I would have to say that if
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: like people who if someone believes that God created the world,
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: then this is sort of a stimulation as well. It's
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: it's it's just not man made or it's like one
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: step above above, but it's still some kind of a simulation.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: So so maybe maybe the problem is the world simulation,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: and maybe we like I was just listening to something
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: about this earlier today, like how how we use our
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: most recent discoveries an understanding of technology in order to
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: explain something that is essentially different. But this is how
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: we explain it in the same sense that when steam
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: engines were well the thing, so the human body was
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: described as the like steam engine body with with pipes
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: and tubes. So maybe simulation is not the right the
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: correct world to to explain this, But I think, I think,
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: and this is this is where I come from into
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: the occult, and I come from like like from most
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: like my interest in it. It goes to childhood, but
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: I come from from a philosophical angle to it. And
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: for me, it is always something that is hidden and
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: not necessarily hidden in the way that we can uncover
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: it and discover. But maybe it's hidden. Maybe it's like
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: it's completely inhuman, completely beyond our understanding. And this is
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: what tempts me to write about it and to think
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: about it, knowing that I cannot of concrete answers to
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: to to some parts, it's like again, it's like out
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: of space. It's like an endless, an endless expanse that
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: you will never understand full, never.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, you know, I think a lot of
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: the things you there was so many things that you
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: were saying that just kept bringing me back to nas sism,
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: like you're just even and explaining all that kind of
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: like the whole idea of like we're kind of stuck it,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: like in a in a simulation that like the creator
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: is oblivious to something greater than that, and so like
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: we're kind of stuck in a shitty situation because persons
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: like a narcissist.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, I've been thinking about a lot about
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: like gnostics, stories and points of view and how we're
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: seeing on on on on television, and and I want
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: to add to to propose, I would say a nodel
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: another possibility, which is maybe maybe it's worse but but
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: but in the in the Nozix tradition, there is someone
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: the Demir, who who is acting as the true god
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: of the universe. And and maybe for us this is
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: like the true god, like but maybe what if we're
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: inside we're like we what I'm trying to to explore
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: the possibilities in which we are affected by I will
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: call it forces and not agents or intelligences or but
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: forces that don't care about us. They don't so and
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: and and maybe this is far worse than like being
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: oppressed by someone who dismisses you as as a as
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: a as its creation, or doesn't like you like they
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: don't like it's nothing like and and and I'm trying
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: to think about how in the book I'm writing, and
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: I'm stepping aside from the narcissism, like for for a second.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: But but this is where I'm I'm like, the idea
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: for for demonology that I'm talking about differs from any
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: idea that stems from Satanism, like theistic Satanism, because Satan
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: in in in in like in religion. And he thinks
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: about us a lot like he we we are his,
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: like he think about us all there, all night, maybe
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: if he wants to punish us, or if he wants
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: to tempt us, to tempt us and get us father
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: from God, like he is, well, we're his project. But
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: to be affected by the demonic which is uncaring, like distant,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: like he walks through us. This is something completely different
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: and and and we can see it even like in stories.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: I really like the story of the I hope I
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: pronounced it right, like the garazine demon gerazine demon like
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: in the I don't know how to say it in English,
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: like like when Jesus amiets the Legion, the demon Legion.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: He comes to the Galilee and and they tell him listen,
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: there is a guy in the cemetery and he's running
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: around naked and his shouts and which shaming to to
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: to shack it, and he breaks them and is acting crazy.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: And Jesus goes to that person and that person says, look,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: I'm like I'm possessed. Please help me, and it cannot
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: behave as we humans do. And Jesus he asked the demon,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: who are you? Tell me your name, and the demon says,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: my name Jesus. The demon says, my name is Legion,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: because we are many, and this is like wonderful and
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: wonderful line, and philosopher Eugene Fucker, who I really like,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: writes about it a lot, like the demon is both
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: many and one. He only come in to existence through humans.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: You don't see a demon walking down the street, like
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: only when he possesses one, when he possesses you, and
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: his imminent is inside the world. And Jesus cast the
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: demon out into a herd of I think like two thousand. Yeah,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: so out of one, like a demon who possessed one
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: guy can possess also two thousand pigs and the pigs
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: immediately run through a cliff to their death. And now
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: like this is not satanic, Like why would you as
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: a as a demon or why would you do it?
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Like to make someone crazy and run naked in the cemetery,
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: like what's what's what's what do you get from it? Like,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: this is not satan And I opened the book of
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: the Wonderful movie Devil's Advocate, Well we're Satan, tries to
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: like turn.
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: The Anos movie.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: By the way, Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. This is not
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: the same story of corruption of seen. This is this
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: is why why why why did you do it? View
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: the demon and and this is the point. I think
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: it's much more interesting than Satanists like this theistic Satanism
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: or or satan in a religious religious tradition. This is
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: like an alien algorithm that takes over me and makes
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: me behave like in a way that humans do not
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: behave questions to me.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, one, it sounds like you okay, and maybe I'm wrong.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: It sounds like you're trying to tell us. These movies
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: are warning us that Legion is basically what is influencing
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: most of the crazy things happening in the world today.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: Two mm hmm.
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: The second thing is what we are calling demons and
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: the demonic influence. Could that just be alien influenced?
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: Okay? I really like this question, and I get to it. Okay,
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: first thing first I said before, like this book is
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: completely secular, but I really like this idea of the
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Legion of Demon, the Legion as a story about as
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: a story about the demonic that we should keep in mind.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: And we also like there is a wonderful episode on
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: the last season of Black Mirror which is like about
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Legion through a computer game which which take control of humanity.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: And and I think like it's even called something like
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Hold or something like very similar to to Legion. And
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: and yes, like this is exactly the moment where where
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: like the demon is not one demon that you can
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: point at, like it's something that can affect only me,
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: can affect all Twitter users, can affect all your humanity,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: like like you can't. You can't find it anywhere. And
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: this is why I'm calling the book like it's a
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: development without a devour. But there is no one. There
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: is no one to blame. There is no Satan to
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: point at. There is no guy with red horns and
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: the pitch folk to say, hey, this is the demon.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: There is no nothing and and so so yes, and
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: we can see this for technology and for AI psychosis
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: and for how even without AI say causes AI changes
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: the way we write. I actually rewrite things that I'm
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: type on computer because I can read this and say,
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: hold on this sentence. People can read it and think
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: that I wrote the book with AI because it sounds
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: kind of like something that AI would write. So I
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: change it, and so like even without there's no way
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: in like I wasn't using AI, but I changed because
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: of this, Like it affects us, it affects us all
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: and and so this is exactly the moment of Legion
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: in the in the A New Testament, the story is
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: told on two different books, but I don't remember right now.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: I'm not a strong Christian, so sorry, I'm not Christian
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: at all. But it's it's a very interesting story about aliens.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: And I will begin this is this is like really
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: really interesting and and I will begin with the New
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Disclosure like that was published like today yesterday.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I haven't looked at it yet.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that it's it's I just wrote something
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: about it, like it's it's quite similar to to to
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: the release of the Epstein fives two completely different topics,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: but like there is not like this is I won't
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: say useless, but it's like we enjoy running through the
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: hundreds and thousands of pages that were published, but we
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: won't find anything, like there are a lot of videos
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: about running dots like that escape the radar. And but
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: but but you won't you won't learn anything. I haven't
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: read everything, of course, but I don't think that you
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: can go through the what they published and you will
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: learn something new about alien life forms.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: I will say a lot of them. A lot of
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: the footage video footage I've seen release so far. Again,
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen all of it, Like you're saying, I've
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: seen all this stuff ten fifteen years ago. It's nothing
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: new if you've been into this shit. It's all all
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: videos that we've all receved.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: Airplanes running running after UFOs And basically you can say,
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: basically that what stops us from saying this is not
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: an extraterrestrial vehicle. This is like a top of the
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: line new Russian or American aircraft, Like you cannot say
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: anything like positive positivists like anything about it, like to
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: to market as elien and and like, but but it
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: makes us run through it, and it makes us stop
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: some of us, of course, and and like looking for
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: looking for hints and looking for for new knowledge that
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: will probably I like, I might be wrong and someone
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: will find an amazing thing in there. I don't I
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: don't know, but we won't find anything of true importance
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: in this batch that was released. And we can assume
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: that much bigger knowledge, much broader knowledge, and more important
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: knowledge is is being with help with help from us.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: And the book. I wrote three books in Hebrew, and
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: they are not like the they were not translated unfortunately.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: And in the last one, I'm talking a lot about
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: how we think about alien beings. And again, like you
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: can find it in different science fiction novels like and
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Stany slav Lembs Solaris is like the first one to
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: come to mind about how again we think about aliens
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: in a very humanistic point of view, like like they're
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: like they are humans, maybe shorter or maybe taller, no hair,
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: always compelled to to humans and and maybe and and
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: I think it's that it's much more logical to think
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: about alien life forms as completely alien, which is which
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: means we cannot maybe even identify them, let alone communicate
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: with them. And in Solaris, in study slab Lembs Solaris,
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: it's like a very important science fiction book, like we
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: find an alien, we think it's an alien life phone,
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: and it's like a whole planet, like the ocean, in
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: a in a planet, which which reacts to us, to
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: the humans who come to to this planet, and it
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: creates this is the only way it can communicate with us.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: It creates copies of our memories. We like, identify some
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: memory in your brain and it creates like a copy
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: of it and some And one of the people in
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: the story find find is I think, I think it's
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: his dead wife working in the in the spaceship out
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: of nowhere. And because this is this is how it
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: communicates and this the story ends with nothing. We learn
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: nothing about this alien presence.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: And like.
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: For me, this is much more challenging and interesting way
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: to think about alien life. And I may be like
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: my point of view can be completely shattered in five
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: seconds if people who know things can will release through
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: concrete information about aliens and how they really look like
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: and how they visit plant Earth and everything like this.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: But until that point, like I'm trying to think about
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: and this is where it gets similar to demonology about
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: alien beings as like wholly other, completely stranger, completely inhuman beings.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: I once like, I speculate this is like completely speculative,
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: of course, but like we we think about alien beings
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: as other living beings who live on other in other worlds.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: But maybe life is just one form of cosmological novelty
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: and there are other way or other forms of novelty
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: to find in other worlds which are not life, which
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: is something else that I cannot even guess what it is. Again,
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: we're like we I don't know if we have any any.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: Space is huge, like like the universe is huge. There
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: are things out there that we can h we cannot
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: even identify. I suppose we cannot even maybe even described.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: So so yeah, this is like really interesting for me
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: and and and I'm completely agree with you like it.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: It can be compared to to some demonic let's call
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: it activity. And I don't I I'm not so well
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: informed about like current UFO hunts and and ideas about
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: about life in other worlds or older than like maybe
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: mainstream articles and stuff like that. But I'm trying to
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: think about on Earth, life is so diverse, life not
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: not sent sentience civil like from from germs to plants
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: to humans too, and it has to be much more
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: diverse in the universe, in the galaxy, and again at
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: this point of time in time, this is something that
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: is completely can be completely incomprehensible for us. And this
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: is where I find it interesting. Obviously I find it
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: interesting as well if I could communicate with someone from
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: from a different world. But but but but like on
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: a philosophical level, this is like trying to grasp how
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: how much potential does the I leave the universe alone
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: the galaxy has and so this is this is really
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: really interesting. There is a an an episode on on
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: the Twilight Zone the old the sixties I think fifties
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: horror of science fiction supernatural television show. But I really
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: like although it's like I think it's I think it's
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: the most depressive episode that written in this on the
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: Twilight Zone. Basically Twilight Zone is broadcasted during the Cold
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: War and in this episode, like World War three is coming.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: Everyone knows it.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: And I have a feeling this episode.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: People like, yeah, no, not not to not to sell beautiful,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: beautiful episode, but a different one, a different one. So
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: so in this episode, the Cold War is the the
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: like thirld world War is inevitable. It's it's and and
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: like two families, one of what I don't get the
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: details correctly, but never mind. One of them walks in
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: like an army base and there is a spaceship, secret spaceship,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: and again they gain access to the spaceship, and they
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: heard about nearby planet which has a civilization on it,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: and the planet is it's funny. It's like eleven million
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: miles away, which is nothing, but but that's what they
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: say in the episode. And they managed to leave the
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: world right before World War three is happening and go
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: to the to the New World. And as they are
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: on the way to this world, the guy in charge
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: tell us that this world is film from the sun.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: It's called Earth and it's habitat but like the people
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: who live that are called humans. And this is the
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: point where you realize that like it's the same thing everywhere,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: Like you can't find peace in space. There is always
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: everyone is human. Everything is the world everything, like you
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: cannot escape this tragic face. So this is the other
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: side of the spectrum, Like if you can go to
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: the completely completely alien, in human, incomprehensible alien life, from
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: the other side is like it's all humans everywhere, which
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: is quite horrific if you.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: Brad Sterling was good with that. He has a couple
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: of episodes like that, but yeah, he was good.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: With and yeah to sell Man is it's an episode
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: I really like as well, because this is well, like
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: I go, I go a little bit before this episode
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: like one of the first science fiction movies. It's like
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: it's a new movie about one hundred years ago, or
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: the vote to the Moon and watch the Moon. You
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: can see it on YouTube. It's like fifteen minutes. I
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: forgot the name of the guy who made it, which
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: is shameful, but I didn't plan on talking about it,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: so I will let it slide. Basically, this this like
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: Scientific Community, which by the way, I are dressed like magicians,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: like with pointy hats and stars, and they're looking at
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: the moon. This is the movie with the moon, like
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: hitting the eye with the rocket. They're looking, they're looking
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: through the telescope at the Moon and they fire this
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: spaceship which is a bullet basically like a huge cannon.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: They go inside the bullet and the cannon shoot them
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: to the moon and they go to go on the
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: moon and they see they're like some tribal, half intelligent,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: half bestial living beings on the Moon, which is all
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: like like low budget black and white mute film, and
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: they start hunting them because like, why not, Like we
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: encounter a new civilization, why not hunt them and the
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: cage the leader and bring them back to the zoo
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: on Earth. This is what they do, so you can
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: see how this is what we expect other civilizations to be.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: And on this episode in the Twilight Zone, to Sell
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Men like spaceship plans, and the aliens have the book
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: which is called to Sell Men, and we are delighted
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: because finally the galaxy sent some intelligent being to serve us,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: to to help us, because why not we deserve this
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: kind of treatment. And of course To Sell Men turns
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: out to be a cookbook about serving men to diners
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: as food and not serving men as alien servants. And
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: there is a very nice book by right here. Most
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: of my books are in Israel, so I don't I
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: don't remember correctly now, I'm sorry, but he said something
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: really important about our dreams with encountering and alien civil civilization.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: And I ended up like promoting much more books by
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: different authors than my own book. But okay, I enjoy
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: doing it anyway. This, this writer says, and I'm sorry
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: I don't remember his name. And we dream about an
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: ancient civilization coming to earth and like helping us get
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: ourselves and behave finally behave right doing peace on earth
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: and prosperity make us, help us explore the styles by
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: telling us what we need to do as a human race,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: as unified human race. But we know what we need
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: to do. We know we have to be descent, we
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: have to be fair, We have to do things that
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: will write it nicely, that will make our grandfathers, our
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: grandparents and our grandchildren proud of us. We know this,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: but we don't want to do it, so that there's
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: no really there's no like we We we want someone
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: else to to to maybe force us to to behave.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: So I find this really interesting.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: Take to take before to behave. It's interesting way to
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: look at it.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: I can see that I'm not like and I'm not
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: and I'm just like taking like a continuing for well
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: he he stopped. But but like you don't, you don't
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: need an alien civilization to tell you how to behave,
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: like like we know we know how to do to behave,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: we don't. We don't do it we don't do it,
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: but but what we know what needs to be done.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: Like so I think that when we think about the
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: demonic in the way that I'm trying to to depict
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: in the in the book, we can realize and I
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: think it came up in this conversation at a moment,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: like one of these discussions, like we realize that we
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: are not who we sometimes think we are, that things,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: our perspective is changed, Like I think that I'm in control,
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: but I realized that not always I may be under
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: the influence of other effects activities and in a similar way,
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: And if we're now talking about alien lifeforms, then I
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: think the biggest shock if we ever come to like
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: complete communication with alien beings, to to to the level
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: that the three of us will be part of it,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: and we will realize how small and insignificant we are,
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: And this will be a similar shock, I think, And
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: maybe it's a necessary shock. Maybe this can put us
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: into perspective about how I'm running through subjects. But it's
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: but it related. I'm a teacher and by profession, and
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: I teach in high school in Israel. I'm now doing
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: sabbatical in Crete and stayed here from from almost a year,
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: and I'm planning to stay here for another year. And
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: I had a student who, like for three years, he
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: had these fights with the school and other teachers, and
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: like every every day there was something new, and it's
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: about important things when you a pupil in school. But
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: but I know, I knew that once he will leave school,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: it will be meaningless. And and I saw him that
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: several months after after he left school, he finished school,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: and he went to a bigger world. He is now
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: part of the bigger world. We've seen a lot more.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: I've seen like he traveled. So he began walking like
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: he left the small confinement of the school, of the
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: high school into a big, much bigger world. And I
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: and I said, I remember, I asked him, when when
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: did you realize that all of your arguments, all of
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: your fighting were like basically meaningless. And he said two
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: seconds after I left school. And I think that this,
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: this is, this is like a hope, this is what
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: I hope. This is, This is for me like something
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: really important to hope for that sometimes soon we will
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: realize how small Earth is and how insignificant the things
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: we argue about are, and then maybe we can build
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: a better world because of a different changing perspective. One
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: can only hope, yeah, this is this is like a
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: much more it's it's not a part of anything that
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: I don't write about this in any of my texts.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: But but but I do, as I said, I do
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: think and write about both the idea of space expansionism
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: and the idea of alien like encounter or even thinking
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: about alien life on which is like a very hard
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: thing to do, I think an important thing.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: To do, you know. I did want to ask you
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: something a little bit like maybe kind of like going
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: forward a little bit more on like I guess ritual
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: tech and kind of I guess media and stuff because
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: I think, like I think you probably like definitely see
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: a connection or at least have a good opinion on
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: the questions I have. If if if I wanted to
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: kind of push this into ritual technology, if a ritual
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: is a repeated symbolic act that reshapes attention to motion,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: body memory, and belief, then can modern media systems be
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: understood as mass rituals to you or part of like
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: a part of ritualistic kind of stuff.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: I think that there. The bottom line is that I
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: think it's complicated and I will explain why. In in
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: the book I write about how I compare between the
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: traditional demonology and technological ideas and and and I think
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: that we have to two be aware of the difference
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: between and I will I will say belief because because
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: again the book is like is written to a completely
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: secular point of view for the sake of the demonological
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: argument within it, but the believing in what like I
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: re call now the supernatural, which is something that is
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: as we grasp it is beyond or above the nature
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: that we're used to and when we design and build
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: and developed technology. I see it as something that is
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: like smaller than nature because it's only a small part
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: of it, like we built it. So it's not like
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: exterior to to nature or the whatever like the universe,
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: or it's something that is a part of it, but
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: it affects us in a different way in a similar way,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: like we are horrified by well inspired by it. So
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: it's I call it like it's a subnatural phenomena for
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: us and and and so I try to separate it
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: in in the like if you think about like in
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: a spiritual way, like like we talked about the matrix
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: as a gnostic idea. So so, but if in narcissism
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: there is the demio, which is like he's not exterial
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: to the universe. He's inside the universe, but it's exterial
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: to our world. And he created the world. And this
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: is the true God which is far above it, beyond
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: the world. But in the matrix, which is again gnostic,
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: it's technology that we build and we got insided into
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: the simulation. So the direction is different. Okay, we don't like,
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: you don't go outside, you go inside to the simulation
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: created by the technology. So so I'm trying to separate
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: between spirituality and how we I won't say we can
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: encounter it within technology, but we but we try to
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: design it within technology. And this is where I think,
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: But there is a little we can find. It's it's
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: it's it's it's different. But when we talk about ceremonies
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: and rituals and and something that is repetitive, this I
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: think this term takes us back to your first question
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: in this conversation whether things happened outside or inside, because
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: there now when it's when it's like ritualistic and repetitive
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: and action idea mancra whatever, it's it still happens inside us,
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: even though it's it's made by technology. So so we
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: can say that it is like it does it can work.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: I'm just suspicious of about the complete analogy between the
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: attempt to find entities in human entities inside technology. And
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: this is why, by the way, I'm not writing about demons.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: I'm writing about the demonic like I'm not trying to
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: find to find it within technology. So this was like
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: a very I think a dance and and I hope
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: that coherent, but but like very difficult answering to your
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: simple questions. But but but maybe maybe maybe maybe it's
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: again I said it before, maybe it's my conservatism when
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: it really when it comes to technology attacking from my mouth.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: So another demon to deal with.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 3: Could piggyback on that and actually to borrow your story
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: of the student you were talking about, if you put
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: it in the context of let's say a magician trying
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 3: to how can I say, hord energy like a energy vampire.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 3: I'll just call it what it is, like an energy vampire.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: And what they try to do is because everybody wants
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: to copy everybody, and we discussed this yesterday on social media.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: You get enough people to do a like say, a
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 3: certain quote unquote trend, and while they're doing this trend,
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 3: it sends that particular energy you're looking for towards the
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: person doing the act. You think that's possible because I
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 3: remember seeing a high magician one time years ago, and
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 3: he it was something simple. He said, he made a
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 3: unique talentan sigil. He made a unique sigil to get money,
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 3: and he warned people, which most people don't, So I
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 3: do appreciate that he did that. Don't use what I
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 3: show you because this was made specifically for me. So
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 3: if you use it, you're not going to get the
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 3: money I am, which is which is true. But using
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 3: that concept and the way people like to follow TikTok
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 3: trends and everything else, would it be possible for someone
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 3: to use ceremonial magic to get the world to do
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: their will, do the will for them and send them
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: that extr ategy. Was that what you were trying to
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 3: hit at, Nick?
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: I'm yeah, yeah, after we're actually being kind of like
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: manipulated that way, or I would even say just syoped too. Yeah,
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: but it really any of all that I consider it's
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: going on with.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: Media, this this is this is really interesting and I
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: think that I will answer it like in two layers
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: of of of an answer. The first will be like
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: my own speculation and for my limited understanding, and the
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: second one will be a more demonological point of view.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: You know, There's just one thing real quick that I
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: do want to add to something that she brought up
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: with the way that she wanted a phrase it too.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: I think this is even like I would even look
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: at it this way and I'm thinking like, oh, this
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: is almost a kind of a tidal legion. I would
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: even say sometimes I think the media, when they want to,
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of like use us to raise the energy.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: It's almost like we're feeding an eggregor. I think sometimes
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: we'll have some sort of and then it's like if
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: you want to start getting into many you know, that's
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: what a negro gore is is a mixture of all
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: a bunch of things. So yeah, I'm really interested in
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: if I can at least put that frame in there
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: as well. Your opinion on what she's saying wonderful.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: So so I think I think we have to to
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: think about what I can do with both of you,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: for instance right now or like through social media, and
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: how can I teach your or influence your you need
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: never mind the direction. And and we can if we
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: if we're understand, if we understand what we're doing, we
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: can build something useful and we can help each other
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: and do something meaningful. And this goes back to the
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: definition by Jordano Bruno whom I mentioned earlier, of the
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: magician as wise men who can act in the world.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: We understand the medium the medium, we understand what cannot
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: be done and what can be done, and we understand
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: how to to influence each other, and we can so
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: and so we can act within it. But on a
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: much larger scale. I want to examine this trending issue
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: and and and as as the algorithm way of engaging,
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: of making everyone engaged. And it can make people who
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: are interested in this subject and that subject, and the
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: occult and the philosophy and the pop music and whatever,
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: everyone can be engaged in this same on the same level.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: Because on the digital digital platforms there is no important
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: and unimportant, there is no truth and lies. Everything is
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: completely even. And so this is a dangerous part. So
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: this is where it's hard to act because then we
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: are just serving the algorithm, we are serving the social media,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: we are serving the infinite flow of information with our
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: input which is meaningless compared to all other inputs because
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: there is no like the The algorithm doesn't care if
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: you're talking here about meaningful things or like meaningless things
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: like it's it's all the same. So in this like
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: chaos of digital infinity of information, I think that that
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: that that the the hard thing to do, and the
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: in that thing, what we should do is like be
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: able to act, be do what exactly what you what
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: what you describe. If it's like for positive ends of course,
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: and yes we can affect everyone like affecting other people negatively,
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: it's much much easier and and it's it's much it's
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: much more helpful for the algorithm. And the algorithm is
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: like this demonic entity that for it. We we we communicate,
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: so it's it's much much more helpful for it if
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: we three argue about something, and if if we you know,
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: cross each other and and and hate each other, it's
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: much better for the algorithm. Obviously it's not better for us,
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: but it helps tlending some ideas. And so you can
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: see how in order to to be more distinct within
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: this infinite sea of of of users in the social media.
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: You see people who use toxicity, poison like negativity, so
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: so they can shine because this this this tactic pays
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: off like it doesn't pay off to be like, it
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: pays less, like if if you're if you're a nice guy.
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: So we have to be war like first of all
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: to be worried from this eventuality, but but to know
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: how to act positively, not as not to sit to
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: steal other people's energy or even time or even emotional
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: h baggage or even like I can, I can. Let's
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: let's leave the the the metaphysical ideas, I can ruin
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: someone's day by writing like several words to him or
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: hell easily. So so this is so easy, and it
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: can make me like if I'm in the wrong frame
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: of mind, like it can help me, like it can
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: make me happy, because the algorithm and rewards such a
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: such activity. So so I would say that that yes,
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: you can, you can affect other people through digital media.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: But again this is the point where we we have
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: to ask ourselves. We always feed the algorithm. We cannot
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: not feed the go with him, and we cannot not
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: sell this I'll go with him. But are we doing
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: it in a way that is beneficial to us, beneficial
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: to all those as well? Or are we just like
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: going with the flow, with the infinite flow in order
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: to to sol back. So this is like the demonological
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: take on this issue. I think from me, Judith, do
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: you mind?
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: Do you have anything you want to say? Do you
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 2: mind if I ask another question?
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: Great, Okay, No, I just wanted to make sure. Maybe
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: you might have had something else you wanted to ask
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: after all that, or have more of the thought going
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: something I didn't want to ask you obviously, because I mean,
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: you cover a black mirror, how would you view the
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: cell phone? Would that be like a gateway or a
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: tool for the demonic?
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: I obviously I'm not I'm not the first one to
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: do it. And obviously black mirror like it's like it's
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: like a direct reference to most traditional black mirrors, such
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: as John D's black mirror that he used to to
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: see spirits. So this is what we're doing, Like I'm
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: I'm holding this black mirror and and I'm now in
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: communication with something else. But what this something is like? Again,
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: it's something that usually like most most of them, I think,
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: like if you talk about like generally, like it's not
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: something like truly important, but it's something that can grain
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: us completely, and and that through us this if we
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: remain in social media social social media manifests in the
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: real world through us, Like when I take this and
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: I'm now reading and reading meanings chattel, then then now
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: like I become a vessel from this being. And and
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: I think in black Mirror, Okay, like the first and
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: the second episodes, if you watch these are the best
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: episodes and down no, no, but my favorite episode is
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: much like it's it's in a much later season and
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: it's called Demon seventy nine Demon, and the episode itself
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: is not important, like it's it's like, it's a story
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: about Britain in the seventies, I think, And it's it
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: has nothing to do with technology. It's about this worker
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: like she's from India and she's living in this racist
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: a workplace, and she has her own struggles and and
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: she accidentally someone's a demon accidentally and and and now
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: she has to kill three people in order to prevent
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: the end of the world. No technology, no nothing, but
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: two things happened there which are like completely changes the
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: story if you accept my interpretation. First of all, the
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: demon wants to show her I don't remember what I want.
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: He wants to show her that the guy that he
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: wants her to kill is exactly is a nasty man.
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: He did something and I don't remember, like he I
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: think he assaulted some a woman. I don't don't remember.
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: But so he once to show our vision of that man.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: And when we show her the vision, her eyes flickering
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: silvery light, which is identical to the flickering of the
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: eyes in other episodes of Black Mirror when they use
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: technology to see things for their eyes. So we see
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: a demonic effect on the woman in this episode and
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: the technological effect on other characters in Black Mirror, and
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: it's the same effect. And the other element in the
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: episode is that the symbol that she someone's the demon
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: with is shown in a different episode of Black Mirror.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: So basically what we see in this episode is a
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: correlation between demonic magic and the demonic effect on the
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: human and technological effect on the human. They are the
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: same thing free if we if you accept my reading
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: of this episode, and this is when when I saw
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: this episode, This is where I started writing about Black Mirror,
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: because this is where things like fell in place for
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: me in order to combine demonology and technology together, it's
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: the same thing. Like now you're going to see a
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: different story. It's about demons, it has no technology in it,
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: but it's the same story again and again. And this
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: leads us to and again I don't touch this question,
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: but what is the demon? Again? Maybe the demon is
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: some inhuman agent that we used to once dressed in
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: bad wings and pitchforks and horns, and now we're dressing
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: in algorithms and the prompt lines in AI. But it's
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: the same thing. So maybe to use the demonic on
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: technology is not merely a metaphor. It's maybe it's the
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: same thing, but it's change. It changed, It evolved through
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: the years, it evolved with us, Yes, exactly, exactly again,
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: And this leads again to the interiority of the brain
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: and the exteriority of the world, Like it's core co
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: evolving the world and our thinking and the demonic which maybe, yes,
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 1: maybe it's just inside our head now, because like how
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: how we we gather the grasp the the thing that
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: cannot be grasped, How we understand the thing that cannot
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 1: be understood understood? So this is why I don't like
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: I have these books about like old demonic catalogs of
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: demons of Hell and and and like the illustrations like
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: we don't know how they look like to people hundreds
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: of years ago who RUDM. But but now like they're
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: like look like funny crictus of of like like like
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: silly beings. I'm sorry to offend any demon who might
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: watch this, So so yeah, they look they like, they
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: don't look intimidating, they don't look and they and they
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: the book said that this guy is the Duke of Hell.
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: He has the officers of his officer over thirty other
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: demons and stuff like that, which is like very very
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: humanistic way to think about the demon. And and I'm
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: and I'm coming back to the beginning of this conversation.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: This is what trying to escape from, like to think
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: about the demon as a powerful humanoid that I can
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: interact with and understand. M hm, why do you think
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: that we can understand demons? I had an argument with
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: someone about this on social media, and I'm happy to
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: say that I'm I went to bed early, I stopped,
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: I stopped the argument, I went to bed and that day.
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you for that. I appreciate that answer. Cheers.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: Did you have any Do you have anything else? I
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: already added hour and I have uh, I don't know.
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 2: Maybe we'll just end it here. That was really good, though.
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: That was you really have me thinking a lot.
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you well, I really, I really really enjoyed this conversation.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting.
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: Every time I get to talk about this book, I
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: don't know exactly like what we're going to talk about,
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: and like, okay, so I'm trying to piece some things together.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: But the conversation, I think it went on naturally and
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: with a really nice flow, and I want to thank
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: you both. It was really it made me think about things,
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: new things, and we think about old things. So this
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: is like, this is what a brilliant conversation is.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: That's great. Thank you, No, no, thank you. Oh. You
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: know what one question I normally ask everybody at the end,
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: or I'm trying to you know, it should be easy
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: for you. What's one thing you hope everybody gets out
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: of this book?
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: I hope that. Okay, so two things. One of them
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: I wrote I we talked about, which is to become
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: to become magicians in the in the in the sense
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: of being able to act in the world okay, So
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: not just to let life lead me to whatever demonic
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: path it has, but to to to be able to
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: do it, and to think and to be critical of
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: my own actions and thinking, and to know how to act.
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: And at the end of the book, I write about
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: another way too, and I want to write about it
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: generally because it's a it's a huge topic that I
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: wrote about earlier in Hebrew. So sorry and not not
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: really not relating to demons, to your cult, but it's
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: about it existence through And this is for me the
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: most important I think. I think that we can resist
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: the demonic ways. Let's call it, by the appreciation of life,
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: the appreciation of what it is to be alive, and
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: what it is to think and feel and to be
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: an other to someone else, Like I am an other
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 1: to you, and I am an other to my dog
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: and to other animals and other people, and and and
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: every one of us is living and thinking and feeling
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: and grasping reality in his health its own way, and
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: I think that we need to appreciate it and be
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: thankful for it even and and I think at once
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: this is this may sound a little a little hippie,
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 1: but it's not. I think it's it's it's it's more
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: down to health than that. But I think that once,
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: like we have a lot of things that we put
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: in the center of importance in life, but very rarely
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 1: it's it's it's life itself can be money, success, what
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: people think about me, whatever. Yeah, but but life, the
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: fact demonology is about essentially, it's about entropy. It's about disintegration,
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: it's about reduced being reduced to nothingness. And life is
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: resistance to entropy. While we're alive, we resist entropy, we
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: grow in in energy, we we think, we create new things,
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: we do things in the world, everyone and even like
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: the goats outside like they do it as well. So
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: this is the way we can we can resist full life,
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: appreciation of life. And to me this is this is
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: the most important part. And you can you can maybe
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: hear from from what I'm saying that I'm I'm an
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: animal rights activist, so and this is what was like
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: the subjects of my earlier books. But putting this aside,
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, the appreciation of life, of of of
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 1: my life, and of everyone's life. So how wonderful it
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: is that we all see the world so different leans
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: and have our own different experiences that's appreciated instead of
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: arguing with each other and killing each other in wars
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: and and over some different ideas that we put two
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 1: importance before we put life in importance. So this is
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: this is the most important thing to me. Thank you
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: for asking this.
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: No, thank you, I was that was a really amazing answer.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: This.
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: I very much appreciate you coming on discussion.
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: I'm really really really happy, really really happy to to
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: have the chance to talk to you and I'm i'm
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: I'm I think that will be covered here some some
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: important issues even if even even regardless of the book.
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: So so so yeah, it was a really really really
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: good conversation. So thank you to thank you both for
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: having me.
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: No, thank you, Judith. Why don't you let everybody know
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: it's up at you with you can find all your stuff.
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 3: My person, I'd say, thank you for letting me join
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 3: this wonderful conversation. Thank you, thank you for indulging us.
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 3: I can't wait for your book to come out, Oran.
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 3: I look forward to reading it actually and possibly having
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 3: a discussion later on afterwards. And you can find me
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 3: at You can find me at spreaker x and on
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 3: YouTube as the Loon and every Sunday, I always have
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 3: the weekly brand, so feel free to job on buy.
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much Judus for joining. That was fun.
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: I really enjoyed this conversation and Urn please let everybody
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: know you know about your book when it comes out
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 2: again and anything you'd like to promote.
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: Thank you. So. My book Demonology as Deveolpment without the
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 1: Vowel is actually available on pre sale as we speak,
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: and you can find it on Amazon and order it
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: and make sure it comes to you when it's out.
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 1: The book will be out on July twenty eighth, which
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: is getting close, getting new, so so make sure to
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: put order it. Feel free to contact me talk to
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: me on Instagram or Facebook. These are the major places
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: I'm writing my I'm not supple yet deep texts and again,
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: thank you for having me. I had a really really
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: good time and I will be happy to continue this
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: conversation conversation in the future every day.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 2: I'm sure, Yeah, I'm definitely. I'm sure one of us,
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: both of us will have a conversation with again. Lauren,
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 2: every appreciate it. Again, that was fun. That was some
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 2: some rabbit holes going down in my head when we
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 2: were talking about that so uh, and it's just interesting
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 2: even how it was kind of like on the on
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 2: the borderline of like things that we've even talked about
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 2: in the last few days kind of in the sense.
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 2: So it was really interesting. Judith, thank you for joining it.
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 2: You know, it was always great to always great to
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 2: have you. So and uh, that's the end of another
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 2: recall rejects and until the next one, everybody be well
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 2: later