Latest / The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee / Fertility Chat with Kirsten McLennan on Infertility, Surrogacy, and Building Supportive Networks

Transcript

Fertility Chat with Kirsten McLennan on Infertility, Surrogacy, and Building Supportive Networks · The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Fertility, health and Coming Back to the Self, an opportunity to go deeper into your journey of life, and all this can encompass with your host, liz Walton.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: This podcast follows the threads of life and the journey of fertility on every level emotional, physical, spiritual and the consciousness we consider our health and what that means in our lives today.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: And we bring all of this together with, coming home to ourselves, the conscious and unconscious journey of life and how we traverse this in the best way possible.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I am so grateful and humbled.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: You are here.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: So good morning each and every one of you beautiful souls out there Sorry, good morning from Canberra, where it is a little bit overcast, and I have a beautiful and wonderful guest today that I'm very excited to have.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, all my guests are rather gorgeous and today I have Kirsten McLennan.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much and hello.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Hi, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, the pleasure is absolutely mine.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Now Kirsten is another amazing woman.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: She's written a book called this Is Infertility and it's a wonderful, honest and compelling book and it's an inspiring memoir of what fertility is.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: So I won't go too much into it because we will discuss a lot of her journey and her thoughts and how she has moved through her journey and found the blessings.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: So if I tell you a bit about Kirsten, she is an IVF and surrogacy mum, a strong advocate in the infertility awareness area, which I just absolutely honor.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I'm very a strong advocate in the infertility awareness area, which I just absolutely honour.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: I'm very much a strong advocate.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: So she draws on her extraordinary personal infertility experience and she's got 20 years working in corporate and communications passionate about raising awareness about this, which can be a very taboo subject and I know it is big taboo here in Canberra especially.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: It's been a big learning of mine and it impacts hundreds and millions of people worldwide and I know the stats are one in six, I think, in Australia.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it is worldwide.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: You might know more about that, kirsten.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: What do you know?
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: I think it is one in six worldwide.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: What do you know?
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: I think it is one in six worldwide.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Kirsten is an IVF Babble ambassador and I've just been learning about IVF Babble, so, which we will talk later on.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: She writes and interviews for a lot of fertility magazines and blogs and video blogs as well.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: She speaks at a lot of global fertility expos.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: She has a popular instagram profile and that's called at straight up infertility and I love it.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: I love being able to see yours and then I love, when you feel like you can, you can put a little heart next to mine.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: It's, it's super cute how we all support each other.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Kirsten um shares, um her personal story I'm reading from the back of the book and insights on infertility.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: She holds a communications degree and a master's degree in marketing, and Kirsten lives in the wonderful city of Melbourne in Australia with her husband, ryan, and her beautiful son, spencer.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: So I'm just so honoured to have you here today.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing your journey, your words and your knowledge with us today.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: So, kirsten.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: I think let's start with who is Kirsten, tell me a bit about you and what took you, I mean first of all, to the fertility journey.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: To start with, oh goodness, it was quite a journey.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: So, as you've just mentioned, our son Spencer, was born in America, in Utah, in 2019, and that was after a six-year infertility journey.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: So my husband, ryan, and I was a couple of years after we were married that we decided to try for a family and I think, like so many of us, we just assumed that it would happen quickly and easily.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: So we were in our early 30s.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: I had no medical conditions that I was aware of then and we just assumed we'd be pregnant within six months.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: And we got to around the nine-month mark and no pregnancy.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: And it was around then that I started to get really confused and frustrated and started to actually get quite upset that we weren't pregnant.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: So we went and saw a fertility specialist and she did some of the standard tests.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: So she checked my egg reserve and my sperm and she did an ultrasound on my uterus and everything came back normal, except she did notice that I had a few polycystic ovaries, which can be quite common.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: But to make sure that I was ovulating regularly, she prescribed Clomid medication, and so I took Clomid for three months, thinking that would be the magic solution.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: No pregnancy.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: We then moved on to IUI and we did four months of IUI, no pregnancy.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: So we then actually changed to another fertility specialist who focused more on IVF, and she did recommend that we do IVF, and the first couple of transfers failed, but also not too uncommon, so it wasn't too discouraged yet.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: And then on the third transfer I had what's known as a pregnancy of an unknown location, which a lot of people aren't familiar with.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: But it's basically where the embryo implants somewhere in your body but it's not in the fallopian tube.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: So it's not an atopic pregnancy, but it also does an implant in the uterus.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: So it implanted somewhere in my body, but they didn't know where.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: It was too early to detect anything on an ultrasound.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: But they did know that it wasn't a viable pregnancy and that if it continued it could be quite dangerous.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: So I had to end the pregnancy.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: I took some methotrexate, which is like a chemotherapy agent.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: It was the only way to end the pregnancy.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So that was an awful time.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: I had three months off Always have to have three months off because I put a toxin into my body as well.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: So I went back and then the next few transfers kept getting cancelled and it was because my endometrium lining was too thin and I had absolutely no idea what the endometrium lining even was, and so I was starting to learn that you know it was important to fall pregnant and to stay pregnant and that the minimum requirement in Australia for a transfer is six millimetres or more with the endometrium line.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure if it's changed now, but that was what it was when we were doing treatment.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: In the US, though it's eight millimetres or more, it's a bit higher.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: So my lining was always in like the fours and fives.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: So the transfers that were cancelled it was in the fours and the ones that went ahead it was in the fives.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: And it was a nurse who actually said to us you know your lining's a bit thin and you know the lining's important it wasn't the fertility specialist.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: When we raised it with the fertility specialist, she sort of dismissed it a bit.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: You know thin linings, yeah, you can still fall.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: A lot of people fall pregnant with thin linings.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: So I went away and I started to giggle, which sometimes can be helpful, sometimes not.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: I learned that endometrium linings are very important and that a healthy optimum lining is between 10 and 12 millimeters and that with a thin lining, especially one that's in the fours and fives, the implantation rate, transfer rate is very low and the miscarriage rate is very high.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: So we decided to get a second opinion and we went and saw another fertility specialist.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad that we did.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: We did that so he said at the very first appointment.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: He sort of hit us with the hard truth and he said you know, thin linings are rare, they're often genetic and they're very difficult to treat and your best chance of having a baby is to actually do surrogacy.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: And that was very overwhelming information to hear.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: I'd never met a surrogate.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: I'd never met anyone who'd had a baby through surrogacy.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: It's not as common in Australia compared to somewhere like America.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: So, not feeling ready yet to sort of close the door on being pregnant myself, we sort of asked look, is there anything else we can do to try and improve the lining?
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: So he was reluctant.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: We said, all right, well, here's a bunch of stuff that we can try.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: We tried different medications.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: You know the acupuncture and the Chinese medicine.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: I even did a stem cell procedure.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, they injected stem cells into my uterus to try to increase the blood flow and increase the lining and it did get to the highest it had ever been.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: So it got to sort of just over six, and so we did push ahead with a transfer, and also I should add that all our embryos were being genetically tested as well PGS tested.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: So everything that we were putting in had been tested, so went ahead with a transfer, hopped in a PGS embryo and I felt pregnant.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: But we went in for a scan at six weeks and the scan showed that the heartbeat was too slow and the growth was too slow and I remember like the sack was in an abnormal shape and they said look, you will inevitably miscarry, which was devastating.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Anyone who's been through pregnancy loss knows how devastating it can be.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so we went back three days later for a follow-up scan and by that time the baby had passed.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: So I had a DNC, and then three months off obviously, which I think is important physically and mentally important as well to be able to grieve and to heal.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: So after the miscarriage, we then went ahead with another transfer and it failed.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: And then we thought, oh, maybe we should actually seriously consider surrogacy after all, as our specialists have been recommending all along.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: So we actually started surrogacy in Canada and it's altruistic surrogacy in Canada and we were matched quite quickly with a surrogacy in Canada and it's altruistic surrogacy in Canada and we were matched quite quickly with a surrogate and we flew over to Toronto in Canada for the transfer.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: And I will say the next part of this story of our journey was probably the lowest point.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: No, it was the lowest point of our journey.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: So we flew over the transfer and we were at the clinical waiting with the surrogate, julie, and you know the transfer time came and went.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: I'm like what's going on?
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: What's the delay?
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: Because you know, usually transfers are very precise with the time and eventually a nurse came out and she said the specialist would like to see you and Ryan in his office, okay, and I just had that feeling of dread.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, something was wrong.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: And I still remember he sat behind his desk, he had this grey face and he said you know I'm so sorry, but the container of embryos that you transported over from Australia is empty.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: He said we opened the container to thaw the embryos and there was nothing inside and we were just shattered.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: It was absolutely devastating because, as I would later learn, transporting embryos, sperm eggs, is very standard practice.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: People do it all the time.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: They're changing clinics and moving, doing surrogacy, whatever it is, and something like this happening is extremely rare and so it's not something we had considered.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: So I think everyone going through infertility, going into a transfer, you think you know, is it going to fail, or will I miscarry, or going to a collection, will I collect enough eggs or any eggs, but we're not thought, uh, will the container definitely have the embryo?
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Like it was just not a scenario that we even imagined.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: So it was kind of double hit because like we went into shock and yeah, also then the realisation that well, there goes our embryos.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: So to this day they don't know what happened.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: They said either there was an error at the end sorry, an error packing the embryos in Melbourne, or something happened in transit so they can't be like the containers can't be X-rayed if the X-rayed destroy everything.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: So maybe an X-rayed, or there was an issue at the other end I'm packing it.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Either way, we could never prove, like there was no way we could prove what had happened.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: So we had to accept that that's what had happened.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: So we came back to Melbourne and I remember feeling very obviously very depressed about it but also very superstitious because I thought, oh, this is the universe's way of conspiring, that we're never meant to be parents.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: You know, something extremely rare has happened to stop us from being parents.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: So that took time to work through and to grieve and you know I had an excellent therapist at the time who also did a lot of hypnotherapy and so she really helped, helped me through that difficult period.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: So we then changed to surrogacy in America, which is commercial surrogacy, so there's compensation for the surrogate, and we were matched pretty quickly through an agency Rocky Mountain surrogacy, and we also went through Utah Fertility Center.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: So Dr Russell Falk and Utah Fertility Center and I still remember the Skype that we had with our surrogate Leah and her husband Josh, straight away we had that instant rapport with them.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: So you know, sometimes you meet people in life and within only 10 minutes of speaking to them you're like I feel a real connection with you.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: I think we're going to be in each other's lives for a while.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: We had that straight away and we just knew that this is the woman that we wanted to carry our baby and she'd been a surrogate before, so for a couple from Spain.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: And yeah, we just all had such a wonderful introduction and yeah, we, we went ahead with surrogacy and the first transfer failed, which was obviously disappointing.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: But you know, by by that stage we're almost old hands at it.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, like all that happens, um, I think it was particularly hard for Leah though, because her first surrogacy, uh relationship they'd fallen pregnant straight away, and so I think that was all new to her.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: But the first one failed.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: And then our specialist, dr Russell Falk.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: He recommended that we do an ERA endometrium receptability array test.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: People can google it because it's very technical, so but basically checking that your lining is the most receptive to receiving the embryo, the time is at the optimum time to transfer, because sometimes it can be the time can be a little bit off.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: And so through this test, which involved, uh like, collecting some of the lining of um Leah's uterus and doing some analysis, we discovered that we were transferring a little bit too early.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: So we changed the transfer time and fell pregnant and we had the first scan at seven weeks and everything was amazing.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: So the heartbeat was strong, the embryo growth was strong, leah's hormone levels were high, everything was tracking exactly as it was meant to.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: The next ultrasound was at nine weeks and, with the time zone difference it was 3am Melbourne time and given everything had gone so well with the first one and there was no reason to suspect there'd be anything wrong.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: We decided that Leah and Josh would take photos and videos of the scan and then, when we'd wake up, we'd all Skype and talk about it.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: So it was 3am our time.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: I woke up at 6 am, very excited and anxious, and I checked my phone and there were no messages from Leah, and Leah's, an excellent communicator, constantly would be updating me on things and I knew that the ultrasound had been three hours before.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: So straight away I was like, oh, something's wrong.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: And my husband, ryan, was asleep.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: But his phone was on his bedside table and I could see on the lock screen a whatsapp message from Leah's husband, josh, and could only read part.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: You know it was cut off only could read part of the message.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: But it said I'm so sorry, but we've lost the baby oh my god yeah, so it, yeah.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: that was also probably the second lowest part of our journey because, again, something we didn't expect and the first scan had gone so well and what had happened is Leah had a hematoma.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Oh, right.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: And it had cut off the supply from the placenta to the baby, and so I think the scan was at nine and a half weeks and I think they estimated the baby past sort of nine weeks, like a few days before, and it was one of those things where it's a subchronic hematoma, where, again, nothing you can do, you can't prevent them and you can't treat them.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: So rarely do they cause miscarriage, and actually we had one with our pregnancy with Spencer as well.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: So rarely do they cause miscarriage, but in this case they did, and so, as you can imagine, it was extremely painful time and it was very difficult being in two different countries oh my goodness so challenging.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: All we wanted to do was grieve together, hug and support each other, and all we could do was Skype.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Leah was very obviously devastated, but she also felt very guilty that she'd let us down.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: And you know that it was her fault and obviously everybody knows that pregnancy loss is outside of control.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: It's nothing that you've done wrong, but I think she had that added.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: I don't know expectation or something, because it was.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: She was caring for us and so a really hard time for her and you know, at this point she could have easily walked away, no one would have blamed her, but she was absolutely determined to help us have a family.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: she's like this is not the end of your story and so we went ahead with a third transfer and now, months later, our son, spencer, was born.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Wow, third time's, third time's, the charm.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: And we actually lived with Lear and Josh in their home.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: So they live in a place called Gunnison in Utah, a small town, and we actually lived with them for five weeks.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: So we went over two weeks before Spencer was born, and in the first three weeks of his life we all lived together in the same house, which was an amazing experience.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: It was really lovely.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Before we travelled back to Australia and we are regularly in contact with Lear and Josh, and they have two sons as well and we actually were living in America for 18 months.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: We moved back this year.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: We went to live in North Carolina for my husband's work, and so that gave us a great opportunity to see Leah and Josh.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: So we went to their home in Utah.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: We had a little reunion in Las Vegas.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Leah came and stayed with us in North Carolina for a week, and so it was really lovely to be able to all reunite and for Spencer to sort of meet them, because as a baby he obviously had no memory of them.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: So to be able to meet them as a four-year-old, like last year was really special as well.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: So that's my story in a nutshell.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Obviously, I write about it in depth in my book this infertility but that's the the overall story, the six-year journey wow, um, I just really want to honor that, because the the low times are so low, aren't they?
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: and I think also, it's all the learning you know.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: You don't know what you don't know, until you have to learn something and go.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: God, if only I was aware of this beforehand.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: And there's just so much to not know, but you don't know, you have to know it.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think these days there is so much more support and information for people like all the you know, like your podcast or the wonderful podcasts, or the Instagram community, the books, the magazines, but I felt when we were going through everything there wasn't a lot out there, and so that made it quite isolating and also just difficult to find out things.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: So, like with the endometrium lining, again, I had no idea what it was, I had to do my own sort of Google searches, whereas these days there's plenty of information about it and support.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think that we've come a long way in the last five years or so, which is amazing come a long way in the last, you know, five years or so, which is amazing.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I'm, and, as um, I so agree with that and as fertility, or infertility, is an area, a subject and a reality that is growing, um, I think then there is more awareness, more you know, there's more growing understanding of all the different little things, because, for all of us is different, the female body is just so amazing but so intricate, yeah, that there's so many different things that can um happen for us, and I suppose it's only through um, the things that don't go right, that it's like oh, okay, maybe we need to learn about this, okay, we need to learn about that, and um, so it creates awareness all the time, doesn't it?
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: it does.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: And the other thing that I didn't realize until only a few years ago is how prominent male infertility is, and so I've learned that male infertility is about 40.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: So it's 50 female, 40 male and 10 sort of combination of both.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: But every single time I met someone or a couple struggling to fall pregnant, I just assumed it was a female, and some of the times that it wasn't, it was the male.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: So even I feel like there's still a lot of awareness that needs to happen with male infertility, and there's a huge, unfortunate, huge stigma around it.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: But even something as simple as that, male infertility is so, it's so high, but not all the people know that absolutely, and I think originally it is like oh, you know what's wrong with me and what can I do about my body.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: So in my journey, um, they couldn't find out what was wrong with me, but my husband had anti-sperm antibodies oh interesting so that's why we were told we had to have IVF.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: So, yes, the um, the male impact and infertility there is growing quite substantially and again, a lot of the endocrine disruptors, big big area that they're playing in.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: I think our mobile phones in back pocket have a big part to play in sperm quality, safety, um, and it's all yeah.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: Again, so many factors and I work a lot with the emotional part too.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Huge yeah also.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: And, like you're saying, we're just learning all the time.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: It's like this compounding of all this new information constantly, really isn't it.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely found with our journey that having a really good therapist and again, as I mentioned, she was a hypnotherapist as well was essential, because I think we would have just stopped our journey.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a great segue to go to now as we can just reflect back.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: You know, with how lonely it feels and what you've just said about having a good therapist.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: So tell me what you feel with the loneliness and how a therapist really supported you and what made you think.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: You know, I always say we need our team around us.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: Who is your crew?
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Because it's never just any one thing, but it can be that team that can support mentally, spiritually, physically, emotionally.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, just what was that for you with knowing how am I going to do?
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: this.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was a few people.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I also saw an acupuncturist and to start with, the goal was to increase my lining.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Okay and look, the acupuncture didn't work with the lining, unfortunately, but where it did help was it helped with my anxiety, my stress, my depression?
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: So all of that really helped the acupuncture and I think also my egg quality, because my egg quality was always very high.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: The egg quality in the egg count was always very high.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: That was never our issue.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: So having regular acupuncture and she would also prescribe Chinese medicine herbs, yeah.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Then having the therapist who I saw weekly for a few years, and again the hypnotherapy, I found that so interesting, effective, because I'd go into this deep relaxation state and she would sort of feed me these affirmations and positive visualization.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: And, like I remember, a few times I went really deep.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: And one session at the end I said to her like I really enjoyed that classical music that you were playing in our session, like it was really beautiful, like what music was that?
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: And she's like I didn't play any music.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: So what music are you talking about?
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh okay, I really thought I heard music.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: She's like no, so it was, I don't know.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: I found that a very wonderful experience.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Hypnotherapy and she used a lot of CBT, yeah, and just I don't know sort of what is it like where you catastrophise and just sort of more positive thinking, because she would always say things like how your feeling has no bearing on the outcome.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: So if you think it's just never going to work, I just know it's not going to work, it's going to fail.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: She's like that's okay to think that, but that's not going to mean that it's not going to work.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: So just that reassurance that what you're thinking and feeling is not going to result in the actual outcome.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: And then I would say a handful of friends who had also been on the journey that were a couple of years ahead.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: So a few friends who were on the journey at the same time but then they fell pregnant and had their babies, but they were a couple of years ahead of us.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: So just being able to lean on them and just talk to someone who got it, who understood, was so crucial.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: And again, today the Instagram community is amazing and you know resources like IVF Babble and podcasts and that are amazing.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: I don't remember any of that.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Really, back when we were doing things, there was a couple of books I read, but even the books I read were, you know, people who'd done maybe two transfers and then it had worked, and I was like I can't relate to that.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: You know people who'd done maybe two transfers and then it had worked, and I was like I can't relate to that.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I feel like there's just a lot more support for people these days and conferences and things, which, again, there was nothing like that when we were going through everything.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, so for me, it was really the acupuncturist, the therapist and the handful of close friends who had been throughout themselves yes, I think that's beautiful for people to be aware, because it is about having your crew and what that looks like for you, because we're all different and I know for me and I, you know, there was no one really then and yeah, so it's a bit like you know who can support me.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: So I love hearing that you had that crew around you.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: And even with acupuncture, like you say, the idea was this actually maybe didn't help with that, but there was all this other area.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: You know, I say just, I always say go and see as many amazing therapists as possible, because each one will add something more than you will expect for yourself and your inner growth yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: And there wasn't at the time.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: There weren't fertility coaches either.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: So or maybe they were just starting up, I don't know, but I don't think there were any.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: So I think, you know, if I was doing it now, I would definitely see a fertility coach.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, there's a lot more now and they're, all you know, amazing and each one of them have had a different journey, um, which, you know, is all relevant and and an honored journey too, because they're passionate about helping people, as am I, you know, so that you don't have to have like for me it was 10 years.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: You know you don't have to have the 10 years, you know, but everything is an opportunity, you know, it's all about an opportunity to learn and be a better version of yourself, isn't it?
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: And, as I mentioned, if I didn't have that support, I think we would have stopped.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: We would have said enough's, enough.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: It's starting to destroy us mentally, it's affecting our relationship, whatever else, uh, and we would have said let's make our peace with not having children, would have grieved that it would have been extremely difficult now having Spencer.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: I think, oh, I can't imagine.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, uh, but uh, I think we would have stopped.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Have we not had the right support?
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: yeah, the right help?
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: yeah, we would just be, too hard.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's, it's so hard, it's so hard, and I think the, the mental and the emotional journey can weigh in some ways far heavier than the medical aspect of it, because, going on in our head, it's affecting our body and it um, yeah, it, it, it has a deep effect.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Now, I love what you said about hypnotherapy.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Because of my experiences I'm now a hypnotherapist and I do a lot of vaccinations yeah, I think it's just so powerful.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: So it was lovely hearing that being reflected back.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: So thank you for that, and having friends to talk to.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: You know, because I know a lot of people can choose.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm not going to tell anybody, I choose to keep it to myself.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: And um, and I think this is where you know, like you say, it's that taboo subject, um, of scared to say in case none of it works, but then, when none of it works, the pain because you're alone.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: So it's a, it's a double-edged sword, isn't it?
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: it really is, and it's one of those things where you know whenever you have like a physical injury like if I broke my leg everyone would know, everyone would give me support, I'd get a lot of support, whereas if it's something that people can't see, you know it affects you so deeply but unless you share it with people that don't know and then you don't get the support that you need.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: So I think I mean I found personally I really benefited from sharing with people, from sharing with close friends and as time went on, more and more people knew, because time was going on and we'd been married for a few years and all our friends were having kids and of course, you would have friends or family members saying like, oh, are you two gonna have children anytime soon?
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: yeah, I would always ask, and you know, you know, at first you'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah soon and then after a while you'd be like, yeah, we're trying, and then we're having a few difficulties and then it would sort of come out and especially when we did surrogacy like can't keep that hidden, yeah, and so.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: But I found it very valuable, whereas my husband runs a lot more private, so he sort of kept a lot to himself and you know, towards the end he opened up to a handful of people and, you know, obviously confided in his family and that, but otherwise he didn't tell as many people.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: But for me personally I found it very, very beneficial.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I agree, it takes time, but, you know, allowing yourself to be vulnerable can also mean you, the individual, whoever can find the support, as opposed to not.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Can I also ask now?
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: I know for a lot of us the relationship can go through some tough times what were some of the things that you and your husband found and what, what were your ways of being able to, you know, traverse through those tough times?
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: Because it's always nice to see her.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: How do, how did other people do it?
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: And when I did the fertility summit and we had the panel, we had two of the wonderful couple, ileana andve I'm sorry, nick that were on big miracles and actually them two sharing the difficulty of being on it and their troubles was massive.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: So, um, I think this is an interesting area to go through, because we're not, you know, we're not shown how to, how do we relate when we're in the toughest time possible?
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: So, what tools did you find?
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Or what would be your hindsight awareness?
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: We did a few therapy sessions together, which, again, I found really valuable.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: So at the start we did a few.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: I think it was after our first pregnancy loss.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: We did a few sessions together.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: And then, when we did surrogacy, we actually had mandatory counselling as well, which I loved.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: So I was glad that it was mandatory.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: So that was the first thing.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Doing a few counselling, therapy sessions together was really helpful.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: And then we made sure that we communicated with each other.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: It can be hard sometimes, but really tried to prioritise that and we went on a couple of holidays as well just to sort of get away and to not think about infertility and just to have fun, enjoy each other's company, and you know what does life look without fertility?
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: So that were probably the main things.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think couples counselling with something like infertility can be really helpful.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: So and then just you know, trying to schedule in regular date days or just opportunities to talk to each other and communicate with each other and making sure that, as much as you can, you're looking after your own mental health to then be able to be in your strongest position in the relationship.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: So again, I was having my regular therapy sessions, doing the hypnotherapy and the acupuncture and talking to friends and all of that so that I was getting all the mental support I needed to then be a stronger version of myself in a relationship, if that makes sense absolutely, absolutely.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: It makes sense and I think this is what I find as the gift of the journey is we have to learn our boundaries and to look after ourselves.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: Um yeah, and.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: I think that that becomes very important after becoming a parent, because we've put those things into place and realised the more that we can look after ourselves and we have even more bountiful energy, understanding, patience, you know, our window of tolerance is bigger, and so I think those are the the gifts of the fertility journey I would agree with you on that.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: I would say that you know that the silver lining of infertility it's not something anyone ever wants, but the silver lining is I do feel that you know my empathy and gratitude increased and you know the like you say, like your patience and I don't know.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: I found, you know, things that may have upset me when Spencer was little or even now.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Just don't upset me as much as maybe if we hadn't gone through, yeah, the fertility journey, because you know your resilience and your patience and that increases a lot and you're so grateful and so you kind of don't sweat the small stuff, you put everything in perspective a bit better and your relationship is can be not always, but can be stronger and more resilient because of everything you've gone through.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: So puts you in a stronger place as a family.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I do always say that there's definitely a silver lining with infertility, which is nice absolutely.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: You know every tough time, you know it's the yin and the yang, the night and the day.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: How do we understand what joy is without understanding the pain?
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: So it really gives a new perspective and understanding on life when we've gone through tough times.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, and I think when we can find with gabor and mate he always says, you know, there's treasure in our trauma, and I think that's a great way of putting it is when we find the blessings, the goodness, the learnings, then you know there's goodness there and it makes it feel worthwhile.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, absolutely Agree with you Beautiful.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: So what else did I want to reflect on?
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: What would you say for anyone looking at surrogacy?
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: I think this is another big area because, as you say, Australia is quite different than both Canada and America.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: What would be some thoughts you would like to share with somebody else that could be listening or watching?
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: That is in that decision area.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: So, as you mentioned, surrogacy is different in Australia.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: It is a more difficult process and so 92% of Australians actually go overseas for surrogacy.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: So we had a really wonderful experience with the US and that would be my first recommendation is to go overseas, because in a country like the US you know it's been doing it for a long time, it's all set up for it.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: There's the surrogacy agencies.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: They can manage things end to end.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: You can match really quickly with a surrogacy agencies.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: They can manage things end to end.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: You can match really quickly with a surrogate.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: I think it's important with surrogacy too, before you start to really grieve the loss of not carrying your own child, because I think that can be difficult.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Once and people told me this they said, once Spencer's born, you not caring him will not even be, you won't even care.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: And they were right.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: The moment he was born and I held him in my arms and you know I was his mum and we had that bond couldn't care less that I carried him or I didn't carry him.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: I certainly never, you know, think about like, oh, I wonder how mum was when you know, know she was pregnant with me and how that experience.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: Don't even think about it.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: So, but before going into it, I think you need to have that, that grieving period.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: Um, so that would be the first thing I'd say.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Um, then try and connect with other people that have had families built through surrogacy.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, nowadays there's a lot more useful resources and seminars and conferences and instagram pages, so you can talk to quite a few people that have gone through the experience.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: I think, with something like international surrogacy, the challenge is that you kind of have to surrender everything a little bit, because you have to trust this person 110% that they'll do the right thing by you and your baby.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: You're in a different country, yeah, can't just pop into their house and make sure that they're eating correctly or they're going to the appointments correctly, like you just have to have that, yeah, that trust and that faith that everything will be okay.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: And if you think that's something you may struggle with, then surrogacy is probably not for you because it's a long time.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: So you've got months in the lead-up and the preparation and and then you know, like I said, you do the counseling and the contracts and everything, and then you start.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: So, end to end, it can take a few years.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: So if every day you're feeling an anxiety around it or you feel like you can't trust the process, then it would be a very long, long period.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: So that would be the other thing just making sure that you're comfortable with surrogacy and someone else carrying your baby, especially if it's happening in a different country.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: And the other thing is we, from the word go, we also had really open conversations with Leah on both sides what our sort of expectations were.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: So, you know, I asked if she could keep us regularly updated and oh, she was amazing.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: So she'd often leave me videos on Marco Polo, like the Marco Polo app, and she would send me, you know, photos and everything happening, with all the appointments and videos of the scans and and every little detail, like she just bombarded me with updates which I loved, absolutely loved.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: So that's exactly what I, what I wanted, um, so I felt very much part of the pregnancy and, because Ryan often travels to the US for work, he actually was able to go to one of the scans.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: So I think it was the 25 weeks or 30 week scan, maybe it was 30 weeks, and so you know, he was actually in the room and he was at the scan, which was absolutely amazing and I'd skimped in.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: So that was a sort of first expectation that we'd have regular communication.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: The other expectation was all going well.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: We'd like to stay in each other's lives, so that's not always what people want.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: So, um, I have heard stories where it is more um, like a contract once the baby's born, the relationship is is over, or it's very minimal contact.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: So, you know, you might hear from each other a couple of times, yeah, but we had sort of said look, all going well, we would love to be in each other's lives forever.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: We'd love to regularly talk to each other and see each other when we can, which again when we moved to the US.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: That was really amazing to be able to have that face-to-face connection and that when Spencer is old enough which will be in the next couple of years that we obviously talk to him about surrogacy and how he came to be and let him know that you know his auntie Leigh and uncle Josh, you know, played such a huge part in that.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: So I think, just like from the very start, having that open communication so that there's no misunderstandings along the way, also found like speaking on video or Skype was far better than texting, because sometimes text can get misunderstood and when it's such a hugely emotional thing, like a simple example was one time I think I'd said to Leah like oh, what are you having for dinner?
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: But it was more like the text, like oh, what's on the agenda for dinner?
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: But you know that can be misinterpreted as oh, are you watching what I eat?
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Do you think I'm not going to eat properly with the baby?
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: So whereas if you're just talking you're like, oh hey, what are you having for dinner?
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Like I'm having this, like you know it.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: Just, it's a completely different dynamic.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: So I dynamic, so I'd always say choose face-to-face as much as possible over texting.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: If it's like an international, yeah, arrangement.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: So there's no misunderstanding.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: So that's probably that's probably it.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: Uh, that's all really good things to be aware from, aware of because that's not being a journey and um, yeah, I just love that about you know, grieving, starting the grief and coming to terms, connecting with others that have been on the journey, finding the peace because there are parts of it that are out of your control, you know.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: So, finding that peace, because then that allows the process to happen.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: And if you can't, then maybe looking at something else and really having those open conversations and you know, all of that I think is beautiful ways to um, look at, you know, is surrogacy for you, or if you're looking at surrogacy, yeah, it's absolutely huge.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: It's a huge decision and look, for us it was an absolutely wonderful experience.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know it's such a beautiful experience and, thanks to leah, we have our beautiful son, spencer.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: But maybe it's not something for everyone, but for us it was, it was wonderful well, it's one of the avenues, okay, which allows people to become parents when that's the avenue that they have to choose, and so, with that way, it's a blessing, isn't it?
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: So, um, as we finish off, I'm curious what would be either your top tip or I don't know a couple of a couple of things you can leave the listener with, um, with the journey of infertility and surrogacy.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: What would be something that you can leave them with and to support them with?
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: good question.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: I would say advocate for yourself, and I mean that in two parts.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: So the first part is to advocate with the medical specialists.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: So, with your appointments, go prepared, you know.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: Talk to others who are going through the journey even before you have your appointment.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Get as much information as you can, ask all the questions.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: If you don't understand an answer, ask for clarity.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I feel medical specialists can use a bit of medical jargon and sort of brush you off and you're left not understanding what they've said.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: And if you don't feel 100% comfortable, get a second opinion.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: Because if we hadn't got that second opinion and discovered that my thin lining was an issue, we could have just gone along for years doing the same treatment and getting nowhere.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: So I'm really all for getting a second opinion if you feel you need it, or even a third opinion, and the other part of advocating for yourself is with people.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: So I think people mean well, but I think there's still such a stigma and a lack of awareness with infertility and every single person alive who is experiencing infertility would have heard the words you just need to relax or it'll happen when you stop trying.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: Or I knew someone who knew someone who knew someone who had been doing IVF for years and years and years and years and then they stopped and they fell pre-op naturally and that could be you.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: So I know people are well-intentioned, but unsolicited advice can be absolutely horrible and someone telling you to relax always makes you feel the absolute opposite of being relaxed and it can make you feel really guilty because you just think okay.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: So let me get this straight if I could just drink some chamomile tea and do some yoga and just be zen, then I'd be pregnant.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: But instead, because I can't relax, we're spending years and years putting ourselves through this emotional, physical, financial turmoil because I don't know how to chill out.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: So it makes you feel worse and worse and worse.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: So I know for us, like towards the end of our journey, and I wish I'd done it earlier.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: But towards the end of the journey I started to advocate for myself and speak up more for myself and say to people I'm sure you mean well, but infertility is actually a reproductive disease.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: The World Health Organisation defines it as a reproductive disease.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: It's a medical condition.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: It's largely outside of your control and you know a lot of people who are not relaxed, like women in war-torn countries, for example, fall pregnant every single day.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: So you know, I know you mean well, but actually it doesn't help me at all.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: So I would say, yeah, advocate for yourself, speaking up for yourself, and probably often a little bit of a tangent of that would be setting boundaries, which I know you mentioned earlier as well.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: But setting boundaries I know things like baby showers can be really difficult when you're going through infertility and personally, unless it was a very good friend, I didn't go to them.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: So if it was a work colleague or I don't know, like a distant relative, or you know a friend but not a close friend, I would not go because I honestly don't think they would have really been bothered if I was there or not and I always found.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: You know I'd be upset and stressed before it, upset and stressed after it.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: You know you're going to something that celebrates the one thing that you want so badly and would do anything to have, and it could be really confronting and very upsetting, yeah.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: So I think, set your own, set your own boundaries.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: So if that means saying no to a baby shower invite or I know gender reveal parties are big now as well I think that's okay, like it's okay to put yourself first and set those boundaries.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: Like I said, I went to my good friends ones.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: But my good friends, um, were actually amazing during my fertility journey.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: So you know a handful of them had infertility themselves, but the ones that didn't and you know some of them fell pregnant very quickly and easily um, they would always check in and they'd be if there's a baby shower.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: They'd be like just gonna just want to check in, see how you're going, how you're feeling about it.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Sort of keep an eye out for me at the baby shower, check in with me after how are you.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: And they also had very I'd say like intimate kind of baby showers.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: So it was more like a really nice lunch or something, maybe one or two games.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: It wasn't like too much in your face that, yeah, I just set that boundary and said no, so that would be my other bit of advice is is setting boundaries for yourself.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: Oh so I'm just going to read those back.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: So, um, um, about being to advocate for yourself.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: So that's speaking up for yourself.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: And if people are giving unsolicited advice, possibly from a space of well-meaning, it's okay to say I don't think this is helping.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: And, in actual fact, you know, infertility is a medical condition and it's okay to say that.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: Also, being able to advocate for yourself with the doctors know, go prepared, get the information and if you don't get it, don't understand it, and that's it.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: When you're in front of the doctors, I feel where it can be.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: In such fight or flight, it's difficult to always take in the information, so do ask for clarity and, um, those little things like baby showers, that can be nothing to somebody, but when you're on the fertility journey, it is a massive heightened awareness of trauma and pain.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I like what you said unless it's a really good friend who's aware it's okay to say no, put yourself first, get that boundary.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: I think that's.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: That's really good.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, really really good.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: Um, I love that, absolutely love it.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: I am, you know, just so over the moon happy for, um, your outcome and for your lovely son, spencer.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and you gifted me four books that I um was really lucky.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: I kept one for myself.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: Of this is infertility, by Kirsten McLennan, and I realize now the introduction, russell A Falk, he was the doctor.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: I was wondering who he was and I meant to ask you, and now I'm like oh, he was one of the main doctors to go with.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: So yes so we right, utah Fertility Center, yeah, and where can people get this book, by the way?
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so either through Amazon or through my publisher, CNR Press, who are based in America, so they've got a website so you can order it through their website.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: Otherwise, Amazon's.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'll make sure I put that link in as well, because it's a beautiful book, and just for sharing your thoughts, your learnings, your knowledge and sharing that with the listener and also your journey, because all of our journeys are huge and big, with millions of ups and downs.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: I always say that you know, the fertility journey is a bumpy ride.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: We can't change the bumpy ride, but we can learn to see how we can traverse it in the best way possible.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: You know so, and hearing from people that have done that bumpy ride, with feedback and understanding, from people that have done that bumpy ride with feedback and understanding, it helps with, I suppose, understanding our own journey, isn't it?
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: Now, where can we find you, beautiful Kirsten?
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: Where is it?
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: Because you've got a?
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you're mainly, I think it's is it on Instagram?
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I do have an Instagram page at Straight Up Infertility, so that would be the main place.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: And then I'm also an ambassador for IVF Babble, so I write quite a few articles for IVF Babble, so that's IVFBabblecom as well, so you can find me there as well.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: Brilliant, and again, just mainly for a listener.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: So because I was the only one hearing before.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: Ivf babble is mainly in the uk, but it's a big advocate for fertility and infertility journeys, is that correct?
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: yeah, so they're based in the uk, but they are definitely worldwide, so they have a huge following in the us and in Australia and they're an online community platform and magazine, so regularly share articles and advice and in the future they'll be launching a community platform where people can connect with each other, ask questions.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: It's sort of like a forum, like a blog forum.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they have a Instagram page as well.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: I've been fabled otherwise.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: I've been fabledcom beautiful now, anything else that I have forgotten that you might remember that I need to ask for or say no I don't think so.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: I think you've covered everything.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: It's been great I am so grateful for your chat today, so grateful that you've taken time out of your busy life to chat to me and to share your, your, your journey, be it tough, but with that beautiful silver lining and learnings, and thank you so much and I look forward to seeing you again in who knows what capacity with the the next Australian Fertility Summit in Melbourne.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Thank you so very much.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks, liz.
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: All right, you take care.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: I'm sending you lots of love.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this episode of Fertility Health and Coming Back to Self.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the podcast and consider leaving me a review, which will help me to reach others who may benefit from this information.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: Feel free to get in contact at lizwaltonorg or via social media at lizwalton underscore fertility coach and, if you feel called to, I would love you to share this podcast with anyone you think this could be a healing for, as an elixir for the soul.
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: I'll see you next time.