Latest / Whereabouts Tales | Stories of Belonging and Immigrant Experiences / [Book of Tales] Why Freedom is Exhausting (Sarah Aviram)

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[Book of Tales] Why Freedom is Exhausting (Sarah Aviram) · Whereabouts Tales | Stories of Belonging and Immigrant Experiences

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I just, I didn't connect with the city so much as I did with
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other places. I'm Paul, and today we're
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opening a brand new door in the Whereabouts universe.
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Welcome to the Book of Tales. Moving forward, every other week
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we'll step off the road and step into the library.
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This new series is dedicated entirely to the written world.
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We'll be sitting down with authors or diving into the books
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that change the way in which I see the world and extracting
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lessons that you can actually use on your own journey to write
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Chapter 1 of this new series. Last week I sat down with Sara
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Aviram. She's a four more Fortune 500 HR
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leader who left the corporate whether to conduct a social
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experience on herself. We talk about the 30 day limit.
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We talk about the Society of belonging and why your dream
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destination might actually be your worst working space.
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But more importantly, she distilled all these experiences
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into a brand new book called the Scenic route.
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Before we even start, I want to let you know that the book is
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available for pre ordering. Now every information that you
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need is LinkedIn, the show notes description.
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Let's open this book. Here is my discussion with Sara
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Aviram. There are Good evening and
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welcome to whereabouts, thieves. Thank you.
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Thanks for having me, Paul. Before I give the spoilers, I
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don't want to give the spoilers about you because I'm I'm pretty
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sure that most of the people already know you, but I would
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like to 1st go a bit in the back of the story and ask you where
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are you originally coming from? I'm from New York, born and
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raised in New York. So tip childhood, New York
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childhood as well. Yes, not in New York City, but
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in the suburbs. Well, Queens, which is right
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outside of Manhattan, and Long Island, which is also not too
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far away. That's really cool.
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I I have to say the best city in the whole wide world it.
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Is great. It is great.
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Sarah went to school in New York, studying in New York.
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Tell us a bit about your background.
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I went to College in the state of Michigan, so I went away for
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college and then eventually went to Graduate School for business
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in New York. So both both in New York and
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away. OK.
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And you, you went typically on the, on the corporate leather,
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let's say like this and you got, you got pretty up on the
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corporate leather if you want to share a bit of that as well.
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Thank you. I, yeah, I started my career in
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more of a sales kind of role, working for two different stock
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photography companies. And then I went to Business
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School. So after college I worked for
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four or five years and then I went to Business School and then
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and after that I went into human resources at big corporations
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where they really felt that human resources was a strategic
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business partner. Not all companies believe that.
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So I wanted to go somewhere where, you know, HR is really
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seen as an important part of driving the business forward
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through their people. So that's where my career went
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and I did that for 1314 years and then eventually went off on
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my own and I'm a keynote speaker, consultant and a
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leadership coach now. I don't know.
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Before you took, before I'm sorry for interrupting you.
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Before you took the leap outside of the OR when you took the leap
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outside of the corporate world, was that was that burnout?
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Was that something that triggered you to take that step?
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Actually, so it was during COVID, during that time of the
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pandemic, and my company was doing massive layoffs.
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And so I was actually laid off and I had just done tons of
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research on the future of work and remote work and I had
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written my first book about it right as the pandemic hit.
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So the timing was pretty interesting because I had just
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done all this research and written a book, and then the
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whole world suddenly went remote and I got laid off.
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So I said, well, I now have all this information that companies
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need, so I'm going to go help lots of companies figure out the
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world of remote work. You know, this was in May of
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2020. So that kind of push helped me
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start my own business. And then you went it was it in
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2020 when you went on the on the on the trip, let's say like this
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to have one month in in every country.
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No. So that was in 2019.
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So basically the end of 2018, I was the head of talent
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development for tech company in New York.
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And that's when I was doing a lot of the research on future
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work trends and remote work was the big theme that kept coming
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up. So I convinced my CEO at the
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time that we have to understand, is remote work a perk or a
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benefit we are going to give employees?
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Are we going to hire people outside of New York?
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Like, how is this going to work? And I put together this wild
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business case that I should be, I should do a live experiment
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and live in 12 countries in 12 months and research the future
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of work and do my job remotely and understand the opportunities
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and challenges that remote work might pose.
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And I can't believe he said yes. And so in March of 2019, I
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started that one year experiment.
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So I came back exactly March 1st of 2020 as planned.
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And that's when the whole world went remote because of COVID.
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And then two months later, I was laid off.
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And then that's when I started my business.
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I have to say, from the timing perspective, it couldn't have
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been a better moment in time when you ask for that.
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But Sarah, I have to ask this, and I'm pretty sure you asked
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this question. You answered this question
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before, but how would you convince someone to let you work
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12 months from 12 different countries?
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You know, I made it seem like it was his idea.
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And I think that's important in any good negotiation is to make
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the other person think that they came up with it.
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And what I mean by that is not just that it was his idea, but I
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really pitched the benefits to the business, not just to me,
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like, oh, I want to travel and like, can you let me travel?
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You know, obviously that was something I wanted to do.
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But I said, look, this is where the future is going.
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And if we want to really be competitive in the world of
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business, to get the best talent to work for us, we have to
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better understand this trend. And we could be our company
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could be at the forefront of the future of work.
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And you as the CEO could be the leader and we could publish our
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own research. Like I really made it seem like.
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And that was all true. I wasn't lying, but that those
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were the points that I focused on.
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And so I think with that, he said, you know what?
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That's good. And look, I think the two
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biggest things too. I said, one, if at any point you
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feel like I'm not performing or doing a good job and you want me
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to come back, I'll come back. And two, wait, what was my
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second reason? Oh, and two, it won't cost
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anything to the company. So just like I would pay for my
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rent in New York, I'm going to pay for my rent wherever I'm I'm
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living. So they just had to pay me my
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salary. And so nothing changed from a
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cost perspective. And so I think those two things
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helped him say yes. I mean a good, good negotiation
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skills and of course good knowledge of the corporate
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politics, right? So I think that that that's
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always helping in this case. But how was from the from the
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time zone perspective, I know you are one period in Bali as
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well. You are also in just all around
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the world that say like this, but how was from the time zone
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perspective working when the other people were sleeping?
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So it worked out really well because I committed with my
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company who is based in New York that I would work overlap for
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four hours of Eastern Time in New York.
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So the New York time, so not a full day, but four hours of the
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day no matter where I was. So for example, when I was in
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South America, the time difference is only one or two
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hours depending on which country.
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So I pretty much worked a normal day, like a normal, you know,
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nine to five day, maybe it was 5:50 or 8:00 to 4:00 or
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whatever. Not not a big difference.
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Then we went to Southeast Asia and that was really hard.
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What I did was the, the four hours that I overlapped with New
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York were about 8:00 PM to 12:00 midnight.
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So that's when I would do my phone calls with anyone in New
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York and then the four hours I could choose.
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So I chose to do those, let's say 4:00 PM to 48 AMI would do
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my own time. And that was the best because no
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one was emailing me, no one was sending me messages.
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So it was actually really productive 4 hours of time by
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myself and then I had four hours where I would overlap with my
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team. And then in Europe, it was
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really perfect because I wouldn't start the work day
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until 2:00 or 3:00 PM and I would work until like 11 or so.
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And people tend to eat dinner much later there.
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So it worked. And then I would have the whole
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morning to explore the city I was in.
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So from 9:00 AM till 2:00 I could explore.
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So that worked out really nicely.
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That sounds, that sounds very good because I think the one of
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the one of the biggest challenges that you have in
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remote work exactly this, especially when you work, when
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you work in a different country, Sarah, you did it 12 months in
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12 different countries. Did you manage to do 12
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different countries in the 12 months?
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Yes, 12 different countries. OK, we talked in one of the
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previous episodes. In more episodes we talk about
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this permanent strange and feeling when you are an expert
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and when you are not, when you don't have a home base already.
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Don't. You don't have any more your
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home base from where you grew up.
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You are, you're the permanent stranger.
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You don't feel, you don't feel at home when you go back at
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home. We don't feel at home in the
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adopted country. How this went out for you?
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How this worked out for you in the 12 months you are
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travelling? It's a great question.
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I got really lucky that I decided to join a program.
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So I was not traveling by myself.
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So this program unfortunately does not exist anymore, but it
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was called remote year and they they're not a job provider, so
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you need a job you can do remotely.
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But they coordinated travel itineraries for professionals.
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And so I signed up for a program and I was traveling with 30
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people the whole year. So we moved together as a group
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every month. So we became like a family.
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So I really had this built in community, which I is it was
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incredible. So I had people to share my
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challenges with to to talk about work, work advice, our personal
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lives. We went out socially.
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So it was really something special.
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And in addition, you know, we tried to at the different Co
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working spaces where we were working, make friends with
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locals, get, you know, some of the local flavor, get
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recommendations on where to go, But you know, you're only there
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for a month, so you get to know people and then you move.
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So that's hard. So it was really nice to have a
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group that was consistent. That makes sense.
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So that gives you somehow the, the, the family feeling that you
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need around everywhere that you travel.
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That makes that's that's really nice.
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Was there a time when the novelty fades away like that
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feeling of always seeing something new You, you don't
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want to have that. You want to go back to your
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routine. Totally, I would say a few
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months in started to feel that a little bit, but really let me
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think, I would say around month eight or seven or eight, I got
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tired. You know, it was kind of like
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this is so much fun and I'm so grateful and this is incredible.
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And I know how unique and, and, and this is, you know, a lot of
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people don't get to do this, but you know, every month a new
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language, a new city, a new apartment, you know, and it was
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exciting, but you start to feel a little tired.
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Like I just want the same routines.
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Like you get into a rhythm of an exercise routine or your local
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cafe or whatever. And then it's time to move.
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And so definitely the novelty faded a bit and I started to
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just, I kind of just want to relax.
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I don't want to go out that much or explore.
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And it was interesting because that happened around when I was
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in Malaysia and we were there during rainy season.
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So it would rain pour from 3:00, you know, through till almost
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the evening. And so it kind of gave me an
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excuse to relax a little bit. Honestly, I wasn't upset because
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we've been going go, go, go, go, go for so many months.
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So it's kind of like, OK, when it before it starts pouring, I'm
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going to relax and I'm going to stay home.
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So yeah, that's it happen. You've written that remote work
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is often like a Band-Aid for for dissatisfaction, for deeper
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dissatisfaction. And we talked a lot here in our
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podcast about moving, moving from one place to another in in
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search for over better life, a better life, a better quality of
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life. Was there a moment when you
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realized that changing the time zone doesn't doesn't change your
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internal being at all? Yeah, it was interesting because
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it wasn't just me, but so many of the people I was travelling
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with, you know, as you said before, you know, it's the
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novelty fade. So the novelty begins to fade
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and people start to think like, you know, I convinced my boss to
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let me do this because I thought it would make my job more
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interesting and more tolerable. And it certainly does that.
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And having that freedom of flexibility is incredible.
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And being able to work from anywhere.
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However, if you hate your job at home, you're also going to hate
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it abroad. And so that's why I say like,
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wherever you go, there you are. And I have a whole Ted talk
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about this topic because a lot of people said like, oh, well,
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this was sort of that Band-Aid solution for the real problem,
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which is like, I thought this would help.
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I, I thought being able to work from anywhere would make me feel
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more motivated at work and, you know, excited about it.
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And it, it like, it makes it, like I said, it's more
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tolerable, not more exciting. So this is really where my
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research came in of like what does drive us to be motivated at
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work and fulfilled and perform at our best no matter where
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we're located. And so that was really the basis
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of of my first book I wrote called Remotivation, which is
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more the professional experience of working remotely.
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And my upcoming book The Scenic Route, is more about the
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personal experience and the adventures and what I learned
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about myself and the self reflections I had on this year.
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In your upcoming book, you you wrote about 12-12 interconnected
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stories from your trip. Is there part of your or is
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inside those 12 stories also part your story as well?
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They're all my stories. It's very personal.
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It's almost like I wrote, I published my journal, you know,
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So at first I said, oh, I don't know if I want to include all
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these personal things, but they're very human.
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And they're all the emotions you go through during times of
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change and challenge and meeting new people and trying to make
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friends and wanting to feel sense of belonging, but also
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feeling vulnerable and trust and identity and just all of these
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human emotions and feelings and challenges that all of us face.
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And I explore all those themes through the stories of travel.
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And so I think whether or not someone has ever traveled before
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or wants to or doesn't, I think a lot of the lessons that come
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out of it will resonate with them.
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Were you journaling along along the way?
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I was, I kept a journal the whole time, which is why I was
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able to write the book. So really when I went back
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essentially, so I wrote the first book about the remote work
17:01
experience. And the last few years I've been
17:04
doing these talks and workshops about what I learned.
17:07
And a lot of people said this is so interesting.
17:11
We want to learn, hear more about the behind the scenes,
17:14
like the personal stories, like people wanted to hear the
17:16
personal side. So I said, OK, I think I have a
17:18
second book or talk about the personal experiences, not the
17:21
professional. And so I went back through my
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journals, I went through my photos, WhatsApp messages with
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my friends that we share the whole time.
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I mean, there was so much I had and I kept A blog during that
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trip. So I had a lot of resources and
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I kind of chose one interesting core moment from each month.
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And so the book is like a book of stories, short stories, one
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from each country. It's very nice.
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I will link the the pre ordering.
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I think the pre ordering link is already available right?
17:54
I will link it in the show notes descriptions in.
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April. In April, maybe you can you can
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say some things about the book when it's going to book.
18:03
So the for pre ordering, pre ordering starts in April and
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then the official launch is going to be somewhere in summer.
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August 18th, yes. In August 18th, OK, so I will, I
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will link yeah please. What's great is that the book if
18:21
you pre-order the book you get the first 3 chapters right away
18:25
so you get to dive right in. You get a book club discussion
18:29
guide which can also be used as a self reflection guide and ask
18:33
lots of questions about some of the themes in the book.
18:35
That will create really interesting conversations with
18:38
some friends or just for yourself.
18:41
I also created a work team discussion guide, like how can
18:43
you talk about the themes of identity and belonging and
18:46
vulnerability in a work setting? And then there's a behind the
18:51
scenes interview between me and my editor about how we put the
18:54
book together. And so if anyone is ever curious
18:56
about how do you write a book and what, what stories do you
19:00
choose and how does it come together?
19:01
So we kind of talk about all of that.
19:04
Cool, I'll link the. I will link the the pre ordering
19:07
of the pre ordering in the show notes captions.
19:12
I want to ask you about safety. But as you mentioned you travel
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with the group, I don't think was ever a question about
19:18
safety, but I think there's a feeling of uncertainty right
19:22
about what will happen in your country.
19:24
How did you how were you dealing with this?
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Yeah, You know, not everywhere did we feel that, but certainly
19:31
there were several cities. We were also told by locals what
19:35
was safe and not safe. And so we took that seriously.
19:38
Like for example, in Cape Town, South Africa, they said, you
19:42
know, even if you, your friend lives 5-10 blocks away, don't
19:48
walk at night. Just take it, take a taxi, take
19:51
an Uber, don't walk by yourself. And so that was kind of a bummer
19:56
to hear. You know, you want to be able to
19:58
just walk a few blocks on your own.
20:00
But that's what the locals told us.
20:02
So that those were the things we did as often as possible.
20:06
We tried to do things in groups and pairs, you know, if it
20:11
wasn't safe or it was in that night.
20:14
So I think for the most part, we were OK.
20:17
There were a couple of incidents, more minor people's
20:20
phones getting stolen or things like that.
20:23
Nothing too scary though. Sarah, would you recommend
20:30
someone to do this to discover themselves, or would you
20:34
recommend them to do this just to see that there is not a
20:39
definitive change in the way your job is, like you mentioned
20:43
before? Yeah, I would recommend anyone
20:46
to travel. I mean, travel's an incredible
20:49
way to learn about the world, to learn about yourself.
20:52
I understand it's not an option for everyone, whether you don't
20:56
have the time or the money or whatever it is.
20:59
I think what travel gives you is contrast, a contrast to your
21:05
daily life. So you can create that in a lot
21:08
of ways without having to get an airplane.
21:11
You can take a different route to work.
21:14
You can go right instead of left.
21:16
You can, you know, get lost intentionally and discover your
21:19
favorite new yoga studio or grocery store or park or
21:24
whatever it might be. And I think we get so used to
21:28
living our life in the same routines and the same habits.
21:31
And a lot of that is great because it creates efficiency in
21:36
our lives. But sometimes we get so stuck in
21:38
the same thing over and over again that we don't stop to
21:41
think like, is this really working for me anymore?
21:44
Like, is this, are these habits aligned with my current goals or
21:48
priorities in life or passions or things that excite me?
21:52
And so I think switching your routines, doing things a little
21:55
differently than you normally do can give you that sort of
21:58
refreshing outlook that travel can give you.
22:05
Did it give you an extra motivation for work?
22:10
I don't think travel itself gave me an extra motivation for work,
22:14
no. I think what gives you an extra
22:17
motivation for work is more closely linked to the work
22:21
itself. So is the work engaging?
22:25
Is it challenge you? Is it creative?
22:26
Is it innovative? Do you feel like you're making
22:29
an impact, like you understand your value?
22:32
Do you feel like you're growing your skills and developing
22:35
yourself and and learning new things?
22:38
Like those are the things that make the work more interesting,
22:41
Not where you do it from. Where you do it from is is
22:45
great. You have that flexibility, but
22:48
it won't necessarily make the work more exciting.
22:53
If you don't like a job, you don't like a job depending on
22:55
where you don't like the job, It's not depending on where you
22:58
don't like the job. Sarah to, to come back on the
23:03
remote, not on the travel part, but on the remote, remote work
23:08
you saw and I think you saw the the increase of remote work and
23:15
you saw what you are seeing in the late years also decrease in
23:18
remote work or remote possibilities.
23:21
And I had a feeling that sometime somehow at the
23:23
beginning of the pandemic was sold as a was given as a, as a,
23:29
as a emergency solutions to have us to have us work from
23:33
anywhere. And now somehow it's presented
23:36
as a benefit for the employee whenever, whenever is discussed
23:40
about remote work, Home Office or however you might call it.
23:44
How, how do you see this, this change until now?
23:48
And where do you see it going from now on?
23:50
Yeah, it's interesting. Now it's used as like almost a
23:55
reward, or I don't want to say punishment, but you know, it's
23:59
like if you're performing well, we let you work remotely, but if
24:03
you're not, we're going to bring you into the office.
24:05
And the truth is, I don't necessarily agree with that
24:08
philosophy because maybe you make people come to the office,
24:13
but they're sitting all day surfing the Internet and they're
24:16
not doing anything. So, you know, what does it
24:18
matter where they are? What matters is, are they
24:21
delivering the quality of the work that you expect from them?
24:25
And that can be done from anywhere.
24:28
Some people do need more structure, though.
24:30
Some people do need someone looking over them.
24:33
Some people work better in a group.
24:34
They enjoy the camaraderie, seeing people in person.
24:37
That's more their style. Some people work better at home
24:40
when they have no interruptions and no one's walking by their
24:43
desk. So it's a combination of company
24:46
culture and the individual work ethic and work style.
24:50
And so it's really difficult for me to say like every company
24:53
should be like this or like that.
24:56
It's it often depends on the nature of the organization and,
25:00
and the team. Are they client facing?
25:02
Are they not, you know, but there's so many incredible
25:05
virtual collaboration tools now that make those things quite
25:09
easy. So it is an interesting world of
25:14
work. I've always, you know, even
25:17
though I my first few years after I wrote my first book,
25:20
2020, 2122, even though it was talking about remote work, my
25:24
core take away was we're so focused on where people are
25:28
working from that we're not focused enough on why they're
25:31
doing the work. The fundamentals of what makes
25:34
people excited to do their job, you know, are are we like, so
25:38
you can give them the perk of you get to work from home, But
25:41
what about the perk of giving them an opportunity to work on
25:45
an exciting project that they've never been able to do before?
25:48
Or, or, or go directly into the client meeting to hear first
25:54
hand the challenges the clients is having versus you telling
25:57
them later and not inviting them to that meeting or, or giving
26:01
them the ability to take A to, you know, the company pays for a
26:05
course that they take outside of work to help develop their
26:07
skills. So working from home is 1 perk
26:11
of many that would help someone stay engaged and motivated and
26:14
perform at work. That's how I see it.
26:18
I would come back again to the initial question.
26:20
Is it a perk? For some people, sure, yeah.
26:28
Because I, I, I know what I see what you're saying and I see
26:31
that you're, you're considering as part of the benefits.
26:34
But from my point of view at least, and based on the
26:37
experience that I've made, it's just a, it's just a normal way
26:41
of working. I think I do always go based on
26:44
the principle that we are all grown-ups and we should be able
26:46
to decide if we are, we need to be in the office or we don't
26:50
need to be in the office for the next, I don't know, one week per
26:54
month or two weeks per month or one day per month doesn't really
26:57
matter. And that's why I see it more
27:00
like a, like a, this is what how I see it at the moment, like a
27:04
control system that is, that is given by some companies.
27:09
And I think when I mean this, I meant I mean the companies which
27:14
are really requesting a physical presence for an exact amount of
27:18
time every week, because the companies which are giving you
27:21
the freedom to choose. I think that's the, those are
27:26
the companies that gives you the trust.
27:27
And I think for me, trust is a perk that the company should
27:30
give you because the, the, the, the possibility to work from
27:34
home is not necessary. I like what you said before that
27:38
you had four hours where you had nobody from the US awake and you
27:42
are able to do your job. And then you had four hours for
27:45
meetings. That's often the case.
27:47
And when you are in the office, most of the times in those four
27:51
hours you are asked for to go for a coffee here or for a
27:53
coffee there. I have a different statement
27:58
here that I want to, I want to ask your opinion on.
28:03
I think there are a lot of people who are managers because
28:09
they want to be a managers because they like the control.
28:12
How much of the remote work of the of the coming back to the
28:17
office policies do you think it's coming from there?
28:21
Coming from managers wanting to have more control, I definitely
28:27
think that's part of it look, I think even some managers, they
28:32
want to work from home too. And the executive team is like,
28:36
no, you have to be in the office and set an example, you know, so
28:41
that's that's challenging. Yeah, some of it is, I agree
28:46
with you that like sometimes needing to see people in person
28:51
is, you know, it can be because you enjoy in person
28:54
collaboration and that's your style and it gives you energy.
28:56
But but it can also be because you don't know how to manage
28:59
people any other way that if you don't see them, you don't know
29:03
what they're doing. And that's an issue in of of
29:05
itself. You know, it's like, well, why
29:08
aren't you? Do they not have clear goals and
29:10
deliverables? And that's how you know that
29:12
they're doing the work? Like, why do you need to
29:14
physically see them to know that they're doing the work?
29:17
And so I agree, for some managers, it is more of a
29:20
control tactic than it is, you know, a tactic for ensuring
29:26
great work. I see often, I see often things
29:32
that things like this are happening and I, I do think that
29:35
at the beginning you need to be in the office whenever you start
29:37
new in a company, you need to be there to know the people.
29:40
I think the training period is, is easier at the beginning when
29:42
you are there in persons. But I think as I said this, this
29:45
level of trust that is growing with time.
29:47
I think that's something that the company should should give.
29:52
You mentioned, you mentioned your first book.
29:54
Sarah, do you want to share a few a few details of your first
29:57
book? Yeah, the first book is called
30:00
Remotivation, The Remote Workers Ultimate Guide to Life Changing
30:03
Fulfillment. So that's really focused on the
30:06
six core drivers of fulfillment that I discovered for my
30:09
research. And so that's our relationship
30:12
to our money, our identity, routines, growth, impact and
30:19
joy. So those are the six.
30:21
And so I talked about how do we activate and manage each of
30:24
those six motivators to feel more fulfilled and perform at
30:28
our best at work and how there's no judgement about which one of
30:32
those is kind of your primary motivator, but it's really about
30:35
being intentional about it and understanding why what and why
30:41
is drive, what is driving you and why.
30:44
So that's what that is about. There's tons of exercises and
30:47
workbook and lots of actions you can take to clarify your
30:53
priorities. And then the second book, the
30:55
scenic route, as I said, is the personal adventures behind all
31:00
of that. But more than that, it's really
31:02
a book about how to manage through change and uncertainty,
31:05
the questions that come up, and how to be more adaptable, told
31:11
through fun travel stories. So the first book is like the
31:15
the professional experience that you that you gathered in your 12
31:19
months. And the second one is the
31:20
personal experience that you gathered in the was it on
31:23
purpose separately like like this?
31:26
No, I didn't know I was going to write a second book.
31:29
No, this is a six years ago. I wrote the first one.
31:31
So it was kind of based on indirect demand.
31:36
I would say, you know, people would I would do presentations
31:40
and I would say I did this one year travel experience and
31:44
here's what I learned about work.
31:46
And they would say, but what did you learn about cultures and
31:49
yourself and the adventures? And so I said, oh, OK, I could
31:52
write a book about that too. So that's where this come from.
31:59
Sarah After, after living in so many places, because even though
32:03
it was for a short period, I think you, you can say you had a
32:06
lot of homes. Where is home now?
32:09
New York Back in New York. Is it?
32:12
Is it a feeling or is the place? It's both.
32:19
I grew up here, my whole family's here, my siblings, my
32:24
nieces and nephews, my parents, everyone's here.
32:27
So home is, you know, connected to family for me and and a place
32:33
but more so family. You you have escaped.
32:41
I use this word because this is the the word used on every on
32:46
every social media. You escape the corporate the
32:48
corporate world and you are a successful businesswoman.
32:56
Exactly what advice would you give someone that would like
33:01
would is thinking about the same to escape the the corporate
33:03
world? It's tough.
33:07
It's tough. I mean, there's lots of pros, of
33:10
course, but it's, you know, a lot of uncertainty, a lot of ups
33:16
and downs. It takes time to build a
33:18
business, to build your clients, build relationships to, to make
33:23
your corporate salary back. So I would say with the extra
33:29
time you have now, start, if you want to leave corporate, start
33:34
now, you know, like a little here, a little there, building
33:37
things slowly, making a name for yourself because it's hard to
33:41
just quit and then start from scratch.
33:44
You know, if you need the incomes of live your life.
33:48
So if you can do, if you can make it like more of a side gig
33:53
for a little while until you get to a certain point that you feel
33:56
comfortable with, I think that's the way to go.
34:02
Can I ask you Sarah, what's your, what's your USB that you
34:06
are you are having for your on, on, on on your company?
34:09
What's what's your unique selling product that you have?
34:13
My unique selling What's the B? The it's B product USB product.
34:21
I have not heard that term. I don't have a product.
34:24
All I'm I sell services. I mean my books.
34:27
Books are the products, yeah. So I'm a keynote speaker so
34:32
companies hire me to talk to their company, so their
34:36
employees about managing through change and uncertainty.
34:40
And so that's my topic. So conferences, team off sites,
34:45
training workshops, things like that.
34:47
So talk about managing through change and uncertainty.
34:49
And now I've incorporated a lot of the travel stories into it,
34:53
which people love because I could speak to a financial
34:56
services company and give them a case study of a similar company.
35:01
But they're like, I've heard that.
35:03
I've been there, done that. They want to hear something they
35:05
haven't heard before. So I bring in the store travel
35:08
stories, and they love it. I love it.
35:09
And then I say, OK, but here's the lesson and here's the
35:12
framework, and here's how to apply it to your job so that I
35:16
do. And then I also do leadership
35:17
coaching. So most of that is virtual, but
35:20
yeah, helping leaders become more effective.
35:23
And then I've got my books. I'm sorry for the confusion.
35:26
It's unique selling point, but it's interesting that you
35:29
haven't heard that term because it's something that I keep
35:32
hearing in the business world, in Europe at least.
35:34
So many acronyms I've heard like, you know, more like your,
35:37
your value proposition, I guess I've heard it said, but yeah,
35:41
yeah, yeah. Yeah, makes sense.
35:45
Sarah, thank you so much for your time.
35:47
It was much appreciated. It's much appreciated.
35:49
Before we before we wrap it up, I have I have a, a small set of
35:53
rapid fire questions which are never ending up being rapid
35:56
fire, but still I like to tailor them based on based on the
36:00
guest. So feel free to give a complete
36:03
answer, not not a rapid rapid fire answer. 12 countries, one
36:08
favorite. Japan.
36:12
Can you tell me why? So it's not rapid fire.
36:15
I said. The specifically Kyoto was where
36:20
I was for a month. It's just so beautiful.
36:23
The architecture, the food, super clean, you can ride your
36:26
bike everywhere. It's very safe.
36:29
A lot of I really enjoyed it. Freedom or stability?
36:35
Oh my. Gosh, that's like the the push
36:38
and pull of my life. I how?
36:40
Can I? You are not allowed to say.
36:41
You are not allowed to say both. You know, it's so interesting
36:50
because my whole life at freedom, freedom, freedom, and I
36:52
would say like now, stability if I had to.
36:56
That's so interesting. That's so interesting.
36:58
It's, I think it's, I'm sorry, I told you, it's not, it's not the
37:02
rapid fire, but I have to say something.
37:04
I think the comparison is the death of happiness because we
37:07
try to compare with with we try to run for the things that we
37:12
don't have and that's when we get them.
37:14
It's getting boring. And then we try to get for the
37:17
next thing that we don't have and.
37:18
Yeah, ask me again next year, I'll say freedom.
37:21
Exactly. Exactly one skill for the future
37:26
of work. Adaptability.
37:33
One sentence from your book I'm. Thinking this is not rapid fire.
37:52
I'm not saying anything, I'm just waiting and listening.
37:58
OK, it's from my chapter about Thailand where I talk about
38:02
identity and it's a long, long story.
38:08
But at the end of it I say I was left with two questions.
38:13
Who am I? What I don't have to be anything
38:16
or anyone? And who am I when I allow myself
38:21
to be everything? OK, that's those are two hard
38:30
ones. Those are two hard ones, Sarah.
38:36
One country where you say the 30 days were not enough.
38:43
Lisbon, Portugal I felt like this is the place I could live,
38:47
not just visit. Oh, it's a it's a sweet
38:52
freelancer spot in Europe. I think it's one of the most
38:55
popular for good reason and and one country where you say 30
39:01
days were too much. No, I don't even want to get
39:05
mad. For me it was Kuala Lumpur,
39:08
Malaysia. OK, just because it was the city
39:12
only? No, I I love cities.
39:15
I think maybe it was also over there.
39:19
I was there in rainy season. It was super hot.
39:22
I just, there's a lot of malls, there's a lot of nature too.
39:25
But I just, I didn't connect with the city so much as I did
39:29
with other places. But it could have been like the
39:31
timing of the order of that year.
39:33
Maybe if that was first, you know, I would have been excited,
39:36
but that was around the time where I got tired.
39:41
Sarah, thank you very much for today.
39:43
I much appreciate your time. I will link all your I'll link
39:49
your website and the link of your of your two books in the
39:52
show notes description for anyone that wants to wants to
39:55
find them and then maybe one day when the third day will come out
40:01
or third book. Yeah, maybe call me.
40:07
Back we get to do this again. Thanks so much.
40:09
Thanks, Bob. Much appreciate time.
40:11
And that closes the chapter one of the book of tales.
40:14
A massive thank you to Sarah for being here today.
40:17
If her story resonated with you, do not even leave this app.
40:21
The link to pre-order her book is the first one that you can
40:25
find in the show notes. Next week we are back on track
40:28
with a fresh episode of Whereabouts Tales podcast.
40:32
Make sure you're subscribed so that you don't miss it.
40:35
I'm Paul and this is a Whereabouts Media production.
40:38
Keep exploring, but never forget to ask yourself why.