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What is Americanization: Ideals, Interests, and Global Realities · Bourbon & Rum

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I started kicking myself about midway in.
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I thought, OK, I'm going to wind up dead and ditch somewhere.
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My impression of Saudi Arabia has been framed by the people
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that have the gold plated toilets on their own 740 sevens.
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I mean, I'm 7 feet tall so I'm already getting a lot of stairs
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in the metro and then if I sit next to the woman I might get
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shanked or something, I don't know.
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So. Welcome to Bourbon and Rum, the
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podcast dedicated to civil conversation.
0:27
I'm Kent, I like rum and I'm from the left side of the aisle.
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And I'm Kyle. I like bourbon.
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I tend to be a little more conservative.
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We're brothers talking politics for bourbon and rum.
0:48
What are you drinking? Well, I'm drinking my my daily
0:52
drinker now of EH Taylor here. It's so easy to find now I got
0:58
got like 4 bottles on the shelf so I can start drinking this and
1:01
my local liquor store, you know this stuff you pay over $100 a
1:05
bottle for this. And now my local liquor stores
1:07
got like 4 cases they had sitting there for like 6 months.
1:11
Nobody's buying it now, you know, because you can get it.
1:14
And it's just weird how that is all this allocated stuff that
1:18
everybody sought after. When it's available, it's like,
1:20
yeah, who cares? You have a daily drinker, I
1:24
think that's just, that's just beautiful.
1:28
I got a different it. This is a new Venezuelan rum to
1:33
me. I'm loading up on the Venezuelan
1:35
rum and crude oil, so any liquids that I can store around
1:40
the house, you know, aged rum and crewed up, I've been.
1:45
Talking about you running for office and they're in need of a
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new leader. So there's that.
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Yeah. So anyway, well, good.
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We missed a week. You've been travelling.
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Yeah, I had a couple of trade shows, one in Dubai and one in
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Saudi Arabia, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
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Been to Dubai a few times in in Abu Dhabi, the UAE.
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So pretty familiar with that. But you know, I was in the
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military once, spent time, but I never wound up deploying to the
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desert. So I've never been to Saudi.
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And I knew a lot of guys that have been over this way.
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So I've never been there before. And interesting experience it
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was, you know, it's not quite as much fun as Dubai.
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I mean, you know, they got booze in Dubai.
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There's a little more happening, but it's also kind of neat to be
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an observer there because they're kind of undergoing a bit
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of a metamorphosis. You know, up until a few years
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ago, it was really closed down. It was really hard to get a visa
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there. Women still all had to wear
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hijab all the time. Now women don't have to wear
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that. And I mean, I got a visa in 5
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minutes. I mean, it's easy to a lot
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easier for you to travel over there.
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I still felt a little and maybe, yeah, I was projecting it, but
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you know, like I didn't want to do the podcast from there.
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And, you know, whenever I was on the phone with anybody, I was
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like, oh, it's great here. I love it, you know, like, I
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don't know, you know, were they really listening to my phone?
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I didn't you know the. Well, probably.
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Who knows? But but it's, I guess we were
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talking about topics and, you know, I might have mentioned I
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was in Europe a few months ago and I had a Uber driver and he
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was talking about how he was a really good guy.
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We had a good conversation. I think I talked about it in the
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podcast. But he was lamenting how
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everybody's becoming Americanized.
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You know, there's not many cultures you can go to anymore
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that don't have like, they don't want to look like America.
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And I thought about it in Saudi Arabia, because I mean, if
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you're looking for the last bastion of the world that's not
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Americanized. I mean, that's now now again,
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and this is where I love to have some dialogue, like what is
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Americanized? You know, like they put a bunch
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of investment there. So they've got, you know, MBS
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has this, they call it Project 2030.
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And I don't know what it means, but I don't know if it's like
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Project 2025. I think it's a little different.
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This is more like infrastructure and stuff and they're building
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is this. The line city?
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What's is that? Part of that, it's like all this
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investment and what's, you know, the town, the city.
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I was in Riyadh and it's mostly like a like like one story
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buildings everywhere in A-12 story buildings.
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And it's this sprawl all across the desert, but you've got these
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skyscrapers poking up, you know, and like from one end to the
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other, it's a long, I mean, it's a big city geography wise, but
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there's just like skyscrapers hitting the sky out of these
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little neighborhoods of these one story homes, you know?
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And then they've on the north side near the airport, there's
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this massive structure, infrastructure going underway.
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Like you can look at it from a distance and you see those big
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cranes and there's got to be 100 of them and they're, they're
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going to be building shopping malls and houses and, you know,
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resorts. But even with the infrastructure
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so far, it's just, it's very different to than American
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Society. I mean, the buildings, there's
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some similarity. They put a subway in now.
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Well, there's like a metro and it runs.
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I wrote it from north to South. But for instance, you know, I'm
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on the metro and you could have it, it was jam packed full of
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people and you could have heard a pin drop in there.
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And I thought to myself, I was like, man, I wish I spoke
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Arabic. And I could, hey, did you ever
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hear about that one about the Saudi Arabia guy and the UAE
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guy? Like, you know, could you throw
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out some joke that would get him laughing?
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Probably not. They'd probably be pissed if you
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tried to make a joke. You know, it's just like very
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quiet. And, you know, the women don't
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wear a hijab. But I noticed on the subway or
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in the metro, like a seat would free up next to a, a woman and
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there'd be five guys standing there and nobody sits down next
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to a woman. Like nobody sits unless you
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know, you're married to them. And but I saw one guy get in and
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there was the seats. There were two and then one.
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Well, on the two, there was a seat next to the woman.
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And on the one there was a woman.
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And this guy points at the woman and the one to the seat next to
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the woman and she hops in next to the woman.
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He sits on his own, you know, so it's very like, you know, I, I
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thought about it a couple times because I've, I've been riding
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on this metro and I've been standing up for 30-40 minutes.
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And I was like, well, there's a seat there.
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I wonder. I'd probably get a few.
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I'm already getting a lot. I mean, I'm 7 feet tall, so I'm
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already getting a lot of stairs in the metro.
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And then, yeah, if I sit next to the woman, I, I don't know, I
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might get shanked or something. I don't know.
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So. No, you'd probably be fine.
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It's what would happen to her that would be the worry.
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Yeah, yeah. So it's it's and there's and
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that and on top of that, you know, they've got the prayers
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that play five times a day and I mean they're blaring over the
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loudspeaker. So it's not a yeah, they're
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making investment and they're making some changes, but it's
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very much, it's a way different place.
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It's certainly than any place they've ever been, I think.
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Like, you know, you're in a different country.
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I have to admit I don't have, I don't have much of a mental
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image of normal Saudi people. Like, my whole perception is off
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of what you see of like the royal family.
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And you know what? I mean, crazy part that I found
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really interesting, like 'cause when you go to, to UAE in Dubai,
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you're seeing purple Ferraris drive around because it like 10%
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of the population are the locals.
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And you know, I don't know that they're all loaded, but there's
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a lot of money there, you know, and so you, all you're seeing is
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glitz and glamour. Saudi Arabia, I think the, the
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indigenous population is more like 60 or 70%.
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So it's a big chunk and it's a lot of middle class.
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And that was what I found really fascinating.
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Like the Uber car, the Uber drivers are all Saudi locals.
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Well, you know, in UAE, the Emiratis, the, the, the locals,
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they're not driving Ubers. It's all Indian, Pakistani,
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somebody else. But in Saudi the, a lot of the
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people are much more middle class, like not super well off.
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And you know, I was reading about it a little bit.
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There's some, you know, the government dishes off some money
9:16
to the local populace, but it's through things like healthcare,
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you know, they do healthcare and they get college and, and they,
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there's a lot of people working for the government.
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So, you know, you think our government's non productive.
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I mean they get a lot of Yahoo's working for the government.
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They're probably, you know, probably not doing a lot, but
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that's how they make money. But it's not.
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They're not all loaded, you know.
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Nobody. 'S not like a handout like
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you're, you've got a, you get a check every month like, and I do
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get the impression that that's kind of how it works.
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And places like Dubai or the Emirates that you've got, you
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know, if you're part of the part of the ruling, like the, the
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native people of that country, like you're, you're just, you
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get a like an annuity out of the stuff.
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Am I right on that? Isn't that how it works?
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I think so. I think there's some of that and
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I, and I reading up on it, it doesn't sound like all of the
10:14
folks in the Emirates are loaded, but it's, they're,
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they're much better off than they are in a place like Saudi,
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like Saudi, the local, I mean, the Royals are well off, but the
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run-of-the-mill folks aren't. They're that well off.
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And that was it. That was eye opening to me
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'cause every other Saudi, I mean, I just remember when I was
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in the military as I went to a training course in San Antonio
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and it was like a three month course.
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And I remember they sent some guy from the Saudi military to
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the course and and I know she's driving a Lexus.
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And I'm like, well, you know, what did you get that The rental
10:51
car place? Like, no, I just bought it.
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You know, I figured I'd just buy it and just sell it after three
10:54
months, you know, And I thought, OK, yeah, must be doing OK.
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You know, this answer something for me, though, that's been a, a
11:05
curiosity of mine because again, my impression of Saudi Arabia is
11:13
been framed by the people that have the gold plated toilets on
11:17
their own 740 sevens. You know, and I never really
11:20
thought about a large middle or lower income populace, but the,
11:29
you know, so many of the hijackers from 911 were Saudi,
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right? And, and I don't know, I, I
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don't think that that their actions can all be explained by
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religious zeal. I think there had to been some
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nihilism and, you know, nothing left to live for, you know what
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I mean? And it kind of puzzled me.
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How would that like, how do these people feel so disaffected
12:00
in this fabulously wealthy country?
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But if the wealth doesn't necessarily permeate down to
12:08
everybody, then you probably do have a underprivileged class,
12:13
that is, yeah. Yeah, and it's people were
12:20
friendly. I the first day I got there, I
12:24
got the airport and I did like a rookie tourist mistake that I
12:29
started kicking myself about midway in and I thought, OK, I'm
12:32
going to wind up dead and ditch somewhere because he come into
12:35
the airport and there's I couldn't find a taxi stand and
12:38
Uber wasn't working. And so you get all those guys
12:40
like, hey, I'll take you where you want to go.
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And I listen to one of these guys like that is like the
12:45
dumbest rookie mistake travelling.
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And next thing you know, I'm following this guy into the
12:49
parking garage to get to his personal vehicle.
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But nice guy. And we started slinging it back
12:56
and forth on Google Translate. But you know, he's driving this
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old beat up car. I mean, it's not like it is a
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lot different than I thought, Like you said, I'm thinking
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because I well, then I start talking to him and I'm like,
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well, he must not be from here. I'm like, where are you from?
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He's like here. Like, you know, he's like, well,
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of course I'm from here, you know.
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And so it's funny like, oh, I figured you were from one of the
13:21
other countries. But I guess the question I got
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for you though is, is I thought about that one.
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I thought about, I mean, it felt very different than being an
13:34
American. I mean, yeah, they have Wing
13:37
stop there, they have Burger King, they have Dunkin' Donuts,
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but but it still feels way different and not necessarily in
13:44
the best way, you know, like there are elements of it I
13:47
wasn't a huge fan of, but it it was different.
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What does it mean to Americanize a city, though?
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Does that mean everybody speaks English?
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Does that mean people go to McDonald's?
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I mean, yeah, I guess if the bar is do they go and use American
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brands? Well then, I mean, unless you
14:06
get in the jungle someplace, you're probably not going to get
14:08
away from that, right? Yeah, I don't know.
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And I would make a big distinction.
14:15
I think most people would probably class the the American
14:22
footprint that you're talking about largely in cultural terms,
14:27
right? Like I think this is true that
14:29
people watch our television reruns all the way around the
14:32
world with things dubbed into them.
14:34
And, you know, our stars are big stars there.
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You know, I think that's more pervasive than necessary.
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I think we do a much better job of exporting our cinema and
14:52
music than we do our values of democracy.
14:57
Yeah. You know, And so, yeah, I mean,
15:00
people love the Coca-Cola and the Wing stop, but that's
15:04
different than having leadership in the world in terms of human
15:11
rights and other things like that.
15:14
So, you know, and, and how much do I personally see myself
15:19
reflected in Hollywood movies and the entertainment industry
15:24
in general or, you know, yeah, I recognize those brands and those
15:29
labels, but I don't I don't know that that's me.
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So it's kind of a nuanced question in a way, right.
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Well. And I and I think 1 aspect is
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the democratization or the freedom.
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And I mean, clearly Saudi Arabia.
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I mean, you know, I may like I said, I may have been projecting
15:51
some of that, but it certainly not a do as you please type of
15:55
place. Even even the UAEI mean, they
15:58
make it sound like, oh, it's you know, I always think it's yeah,
16:01
it's like Vegas, except for the secret police.
16:03
You know, it's like it's, you know, it's still a little.
16:08
I wouldn't get out of hand, let's put it that way.
16:12
And I guess part of what I wanted to explore in the podcast
16:15
too, is then OK, and you get a place like Iran and we think of
16:20
this government as this super oppressive religious extremism.
16:27
But but you know, what you, what I've read about what the people
16:33
think of the government, you know, like when they, when the
16:36
Shah was in charge, he was like the rich royalty figure.
16:41
And so the, the whole movement in the revolution in the late
16:47
70s, they brought in this ideologue and OK, we're going to
16:51
have a, you know, Sharia law, we're going to have a, we're
16:54
going to have this religious leader in charge.
16:58
But then over time, you, you know, at least in the view of
17:01
the population, the Ayatollah is just like another Shah.
17:05
It's like somebody else in charge other than now they're
17:09
much more repressive. And so then it becomes like, OK,
17:15
you want to get rid of that? I mean, you know, not sitting
17:20
here advocating for the the Ayatollah to stay in power.
17:24
But the same time it's like, what's he going to look like
17:27
when he leaves? Because if it's, well, hey, we
17:30
want it to be like Saudi Arabia. Well, you know, OK.
17:34
I mean, maybe the government's a little friendlier to the West,
17:38
but it's not any freer in Saudi Arabia than it is in Iran, you
17:41
know, to the people. So what does that look like and
17:45
what's success in Iran? Yeah.
17:49
I mean, it's interesting because, you know, it's it's
17:56
kind of recent development that you've had a Republican movement
18:02
against foreign, what am I trying to say, foreign
18:07
adventuring, right? Like, I mean, you know, if you,
18:12
if you look back to the George Bush presidency, you know, it
18:17
was very active and and I don't think everything they did was
18:21
wrong. So I mean, I don't need to throw
18:23
the baby out with the bathwater, but it was a very.
18:25
You're either for us or you're against us.
18:29
Yeah, and, and willing to swing the big stick to do what we
18:33
want. OK.
18:35
And, you know, that has consequences in it.
18:39
It brings it brings consequences down upon us.
18:44
But there are also consequences to, you know, isolationism.
18:49
And so. But I do think this is one of
18:51
those areas where party lines have flipped a lot in 20 years,
18:57
say, or I don't know, you know, I'm picking at arbitrary time.
19:01
But you know, the I think of the MAGA impulse as very non
19:08
interventionist. Stay home, America first.
19:12
You know, we're willing to throw NATO under the bus and like,
19:16
just, And it's weird to hear Democrats being, you know, kind
19:21
of advocating for more interventionist policies, but.
19:27
Or for more defense budget and things like that.
19:29
Yeah, it's weird. Well, I guess I where I was
19:34
going with it is it's like, you know, I think Bush had this view
19:39
that we can create a democracy in Afghanistan, we can create a
19:45
functioning democracy in Iraq. And is that really realistic?
19:52
I mean, it'd be great. And yes, that's it's it's a good
19:55
thing for societies when they listen to their people and
19:58
they're not. Dictatorial assholes.
20:02
But you know, is that it's not necessarily is it good or bad is
20:06
it is it viable in that region? I just don't know that it is.
20:10
And I feel like, you know, hey, we want to get rid of the
20:14
Ayatollah and replace him with somebody.
20:16
Well, who I mean it, it's not going to turn into AI mean at
20:21
best it's going to be Saudi Arabia, which, OK, I mean, I
20:24
guess if they're friendly to us, you don't care.
20:26
But is that what we want? We just want a government that
20:30
is nice to us. Or do we really care about the
20:33
people 'cause if you care about the people, you wouldn't want
20:35
that. You'd want something and.
20:36
Would you rather, I mean let's, you know, use an abstraction a
20:41
little bit, Would you rather have an ally like Saudi Arabia?
20:47
It has a piss poor record on human rights but is well aligned
20:52
with America and doesn't give us any trouble and we can use the
20:56
air bases and we like we're they're our buddies.
21:01
Or would you rather have a genuine functioning democracy in
21:06
Iran of a nation We'd looked at this one time, I can't remember.
21:11
There's 100 million people. America is not going to win
21:15
popularity contests in that country.
21:19
And so So what if they get human rights and popular sovereignty
21:25
and free and open elections and it doesn't look good for us.
21:31
Are we committed to the values or are we committed to
21:34
self-interest? And heretofore, I think since
21:38
the Cold War, we have largely seen those as the same,
21:43
spreading human rights and free society and advancing America's
21:50
strategic interest. We're kind of one in the same.
21:54
I'm not sure you'd find that today.
21:56
Well, and then I think part of the view of why we support
22:01
Israel, because if you think about it, of all the Middle
22:05
East, it is the only functioning stable democracy and there's
22:09
nobody, no place else that I mean, again, you know, some of
22:13
the Gulf states are stable, but it's one ruthless bastard in
22:18
charge. But he's just nice to most
22:19
people, you know, right? Yeah.
22:22
So what happens when those interests diverge?
22:24
And are we really committed to democracy?
22:28
Are we committed to our own interests?
22:30
And you know, I, I think it's a tough call for a leader you're
22:34
elected by and you have an obligation to look out for your
22:37
country's best interests. But I look at what we've done
22:43
over the years, what the CIA has done in destabilizing
22:48
governments all over South America.
22:50
Those chickens come back to roost on us.
22:52
You know, it it, it's not an accident that Venezuela's a
22:57
disaster. And it do you know what I mean?
22:59
It's like, it's not like we never touched this thing.
23:02
We've had hands in this stuff through the years.
23:07
And those unintended consequences that you speak of
23:10
have shown up on us. So I tend to not be in favor of
23:13
very adventurous foreign. Policy.
23:16
But I guess the question, I mean, are these places, it may
23:21
sound bad, but I mean are these places screwed up because we
23:24
tinkered with them or they just screwed up because they're not
23:28
going to get there? Like again, Middle East, the
23:31
only functioning democracy is a country of transplants of people
23:36
that came there from someplace else.
23:38
So is it, is it logical to assume no matter what you do,
23:41
that any Middle Eastern countries ever going to have a
23:44
functioning democracy? Or is it it a cultural aspect
23:47
that they are, as you know, authoritarian as they are?
23:53
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I'd would.
23:57
I mean, do you want democracy for Iran?
24:04
Well, it really. Great.
24:07
I don't know. Speaking of going and bringing,
24:14
bringing on international territories to the United
24:17
States, did you see in the Wall Street Journal about how
24:20
Alberta, the province of Alberta's about to do, they want
24:24
to do a secession vote to secede from Canada because they're
24:29
sick? Really.
24:30
Yeah. They're much more conservative
24:32
than the Ottawa politicians. They don't want to be part of
24:36
the US, They want to be their own country.
24:38
Yeah. Interesting.
24:41
Well, I also saw that Canada gave a open door to Michigan if
24:45
Michigan wanted to go Canadian. Hey, nice.
24:49
Which you know well. If you were in the UP, they are
24:53
almost already Canadian, right? I mean.
24:56
Well, yeah. And at least if you were all
24:58
Canada, you could open the $6 billion bridge that you built.
25:03
Oh, that's right, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting,
25:10
it's an interesting topic. I, I tend to, I think where
25:17
you're going, I think I tend to agree.
25:20
I am not really in favour of handing people democracy 'cause
25:25
I don't think they can keep it if they can't claim it.
25:28
And this, this is, you know, admittedly this, this is, this
25:35
is probably unreasonable, but because, you know, we threw off
25:40
the mantle of the British, thanks in part to the entire
25:44
French Navy parked off of Yorktown, which cut the British
25:50
off. You know what I mean?
25:51
Like, it's not like we completely bootstrapped
25:55
ourselves. But in general, I don't think it
25:59
has worked out well for us to go around fomenting revolution.
26:05
I think in those cases, if people aren't ready to fight for
26:09
it, then they are not ready to keep democracy.
26:15
I, I, I think if, if that's kind of the gist of your question
26:18
about Iran, Could they be a functioning democracy?
26:22
Well, maybe, but I don't think they could be.
26:25
If we deposed the current leader or had something to do with it,
26:30
'cause I think it would never have legitimacy.
26:33
Yeah, well, they, I mean, and then maybe a deeper question is
26:42
what about it, about the cultural elements make it
26:48
impatable with democracy? And why are democracies
26:51
typically more successful in Judeo-christian cultures?
26:57
I'm not sure I'm going to grant the premise of that question.
27:03
I mean Europe is not exactly a a religious stronghold, but the
27:08
background is for sure. Yeah, I don't know.
27:13
I, I, I guess I don't want to write off.
27:17
I don't want to write off all of.
27:18
Asia, but there is also a lot of judeo-christian influence in
27:22
Asia too. The modern Asia.
27:27
Yeah, I don't know. Japan, South Korea, Malaysia,
27:34
Singapore, I mean, these, these are these are pretty functional
27:37
democratic nations. I, I will, I think a place like
27:44
Singapore is pretty totalitarian level.
27:50
I mean, it's a nice place to be, but they're, they do a lot of
27:53
things there that, you know, democracy wouldn't necessarily
27:58
tolerate as far as human rights and some of those things.
28:00
I mean, it's, I love going there, but it's.
28:02
Yeah. Yeah, don't you?
28:04
Don't you gum or you're going to get smacked on a cane.
28:09
I don't know. Yeah, I it's, it's just
28:13
interesting to me that how many, you know, I don't want to make
28:18
this a religious thing, but like, how many Muslim countries
28:23
have functioning democracies? I'm trying to think, I mean,
28:29
would you put Pakistan in that category?
28:32
Would you put Bangladesh, Indonesia?
28:41
I don't know. I don't know by whose standard,
28:43
you know, with those count as democracies, but they don't
28:45
strike me as brutal dictatorships per SE.
28:50
So maybe not all the way to, you know, what we might hope for.
28:56
I think at least you know, a quick review, I mean quasi
29:04
democracies would be consider flawed democracies reasonably
29:09
functioning with competitive elections but weak institutions,
29:14
a lot of corruption, media restrictions would be things
29:17
like Indonesia, Malaysia, Tunisia, Senegal, Albania.
29:24
But yeah, I don't know, I and that, you know, I'm not making
29:29
some, I'm not trying to go down the path of like, you know,
29:35
belittling or demonizing a particular religion.
29:38
It's just there is a cultural aspect of, you know, I guess
29:45
back to like the Saudi example of, you know, blaring the the
29:52
prayer bit over the loudspeaker, like that would not be tolerated
29:58
by a lot of cultures. But there it's like, you know,
30:02
there, there is this, there there is a sense of like the
30:07
collective is more important than your individual rights.
30:10
So getting a culture like that to wrap their head around, you
30:15
know, individual freedoms, it, it seems like a stretch.
30:22
This is going to sound argumentative, and I don't mean
30:24
it to be that way, but you know, again, thinking about
30:29
Americanization and culture, just when you said that about
30:33
praying, playing the prayers over the minarets, and my
30:37
experience with that was more like Jordan and Egypt, which are
30:41
the same, right, You get that same thing.
30:46
Do you think that people feel like Christmases run down their
30:51
throat when we start with the Christmas carols in October?
30:57
I again, I, I don't mean that to sound like I'm just being
31:00
difficult, but you say cultures wouldn't accept that, but we've
31:06
pretty widespread adoption of at least the symbolism of
31:13
Christianity in this country. If they play O Come All Ye
31:18
Faithful at the the decibel level that those prayers were
31:21
played in Riyadh yet, then I agree.
31:23
With you 100%. There would be problems that
31:26
that happened. No, I don't mean to sound
31:31
argumentative. I just, no.
31:32
Again, I think all of those things it's really hard to
31:36
compare because every time you draw on a comparison, you're
31:39
starting from your chair and your view of what you're seeing.
31:45
And that's, and that was one of the things too, I tried to end
31:49
this little trip that I was on to like, I don't want to be
31:54
like, I want to. One of the things I really loved
31:57
about it is I get so pissed when I'm in a foreign country and I
32:02
might have mentioned this before and then some idiot from America
32:06
is over here. Like, no, I want to be the the
32:09
one American that's here. I don't want to be surrounded by
32:11
these other jackasses, you know, talking about American stuff.
32:15
You know what I mean? Like I want to be in a foreign
32:19
culture and fully in it. So I did.
32:23
I love that. I mean, being in that, being in
32:25
that metro, like there wasn't a single American on there.
32:28
And I, I loved it because I, I could really soak in the
32:31
culture. So I don't, I don't want to make
32:33
this sound like I'm disparaging it.
32:37
It's, it's just a question. I don't know that.
32:43
I just don't know that it would work.
32:44
Like even if you said like, hey, we're going to get rid of the
32:46
royal family and we're going to put in elections, like, I don't
32:49
know, the people could wrap their head around it.
32:51
It's just such a different thing than what they're used to.
32:56
Yeah. Well, again, and and I say these
33:00
things not to be argumentative, but don't factor out the the
33:04
fact that. We're supposed to argue.
33:06
We're supposed to argue a little bit here, too.
33:08
But the, you know, especially the Middle East man, the role of
33:16
Islam is an undeniable factor. Don't argue with that at all.
33:21
The aftermath of British and French adventurism all over the
33:27
Middle East for 150 years. That, that, that's.
33:33
Not a non factor, right? I don't know how you weigh, you
33:38
know what I mean? But like how much of that is?
33:43
You look at the borders in those countries like, oh, that's very
33:46
interesting. They're all straight lines.
33:47
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
33:52
And so, I mean, what does that do to the the the prospects of a
34:01
functioning democracy arising? Yeah.
34:04
It's a. It's also.
34:05
A time for all of my, you know, liberalism.
34:12
I, I still, I am still an American exceptionalist.
34:16
And I, I candidly, I don't think it's because God picked us.
34:23
It might be because we picked God.
34:27
And moreover, it is not that we are entitled to special status
34:33
in human history, but because the values that we've embraced,
34:39
we occupy a special place in human history with the the start
34:44
of the American Revolution and all that that has led to in
34:47
these democracies to varying degrees of success all around
34:51
the world. So, yeah, I do believe that it's
34:54
it's special here, but I tend to look at other places and not
35:00
think be like John F Kennedy. Some people look at the Trump
35:08
labeled S whole countries and ask why.
35:14
And I look at that and wonder why not?
35:18
Why can't we turn that around? You know, like, what is it A is
35:24
it a ironclad that you can't get out of or is it?
35:27
Yeah. Well, I think that was.
35:30
The combination of history. I think that was the Bush
35:32
doctrine is that, you know, all people really want to be free.
35:37
And so, you know, anybody could have a democracy if they tasted
35:42
it and they and they had a pathway.
35:46
And I, you know, at, at an individual level, it's hard to
35:49
argue that most people would want that, But I just don't know
35:56
that they're, I just don't know that it's something that is, is
36:01
important to them. You know, like maybe they're OK
36:06
with the collective good. You know, I don't know.
36:11
I mean, I, I, it wasn't, let's put it this way, I was, again,
36:15
not trying to sound like I was an expert because I went
36:16
someplace for five days, but like, you know, like it wasn't a
36:21
place either that I wanted to ask people their opinions.
36:23
I mean, I'd love to know their opinions, but it didn't seem
36:26
wise. Hey, I'm doing a little poll.
36:33
So what do you what do you take from this?
36:35
We kind of ramble around that I don't, I think we I think we
36:38
more or less kind of agree on the maybe not on the antecedents
36:43
and why, but kind of the what and how it stands.
36:46
I think we agree I. You know, yeah, we've kind of
36:49
been talking around it. I kind of like where you were
36:52
going though. Do we really want, I mean, that
36:56
might be the, the $1,000,000 question, do we really want
36:59
these people to all have functioning democracies or they,
37:02
we just want them to be nice to us 'cause if all we want them to
37:05
be nice is to be nice to us, well, then UAE and Oman and
37:09
Saudi Arabia and all the Gulf countries they're in, none of
37:13
them are democracies, but they're nice to us.
37:16
So if that's all we want, you know, that's a different, that's
37:19
a different objective than, hey, we want the world to be free.
37:22
And I personally think that's all we want.
37:24
Iran, I think if the if the Ayatollah died tomorrow and the
37:29
brother Ayatollah popped up and said I love Hollywood and love
37:32
America, yeah, OK, we'll keep keep butchering your people by
37:36
the millions. We don't care as long as you're
37:38
nice to us. I mean, pragmatically, I think
37:40
that's probably a likelier scenario.
37:43
Yeah. So should we be honest about
37:46
that? I mean, if that's the way that
37:50
we look at that, should we be explicit about that in our
37:54
foreign policy doctrine and say #1 our job is the safety and
37:59
security of the United States of America #2 is to create
38:04
conditions of a world market that supports the functioning of
38:09
our economy. And #3 we believe in human
38:13
rights and freedom and access to democratic institutions and
38:17
government, but not 3 / 1 or, you know, it's got to be in that
38:23
order. Well, I but I think also I.
38:26
Don't know? At least you're honest then.
38:28
But I think it is honest in the sense that, yeah, we're for
38:32
human rights, but we're not willing to go to war with every
38:35
country that has a shitty human rights record, else we'd be at
38:38
war with, you know, 150 countries.
38:40
Right with people, I mean, the, I think that's part of what we
38:45
saw in World War 2 and the the reason it was such a a tenuous
38:50
victory. I mean, I mean really, because
38:55
totalitarian states don't have the problems that democracy do
38:59
democracies do when it comes to declaring war on somebody,
39:02
right? You got internal mechanisms to
39:05
handle protests, you know, you, you suppress things that you
39:09
don't like. And you, you know, Hitler and
39:13
Tojo did not have the, they didn't have to balance.
39:18
They, they didn't have to answer to a populace.
39:21
Yeah, like our leader, you know, the, the Brits, the House of
39:26
Commons stands for election. And here the president stands
39:29
for, you know, you've got it's, you know, maybe that's the
39:37
answer. Maybe that's the answer.
39:40
Maybe the long term, if you could, if you could suffer it,
39:43
if you could tolerate the known pain that we would deal with if
39:49
more governments and more people on this earth were free and in
39:54
democratic way. Do we believe that?
39:59
I I believe that, that people want World Peace.
40:04
It's kind of down the list of Maslow's hierarchy, though,
40:07
right? I want World Peace, but I want
40:09
Food First. Yeah, I want World Peace, but I
40:12
want clothing and shelter. I I want those first.
40:15
But but I do want World Peace. And so if we can help supply,
40:21
help, help support democracies, you know, you get back to the
40:27
thing does. Well, but then.
40:29
Now you're quite a site in Iran. Look good for us, no?
40:33
But you're equating democracy to peace.
40:37
We don't necessarily need democracy.
40:38
We just need people being nice to us and agreeing with our
40:42
foreign policy. I mean, that's.
40:43
What? Well, I guess that's my point.
40:45
Yeah, Yeah. Well, and that's the thing.
40:47
No, I guess that's my point though.
40:48
That doesn't it over the long haul.
40:51
Again, what? We had checks and balances in
40:55
World War 2 that Hitler did not, and it made it harder to win the
41:01
war. And in a way, functioning
41:05
democracies don't usually go to war with each other very often,
41:08
I guess. Is that true?
41:09
I mean, I'm saying this out loud.
41:13
Yeah, that's the part I I guess I wonder.
41:15
I don't know. What's the what's the record on
41:17
that? Is the world more peaceful if
41:19
everybody's a democracy? Or is the world more peaceful if
41:23
everybody agrees? I kind of think, you know, I'm,
41:26
I'm talking on both sides of my mouth because I kind of argued
41:28
against this earlier. But honestly, if you could
41:34
tolerate the getting through to it, which would not be easy, the
41:39
more democracies, the better the world is, I think because people
41:43
would prefer peace. What's the case law that how
41:47
many times since? The theory, I don't know that's.
41:50
That's the from. Democratic peace Theory DPT one
41:56
of the most researched and debated concepts, international
41:59
relations. This theory, tracing back to
42:01
Immanuel Kant's 1795 essay Perpetual piece, argues that
42:06
mature liberal democracies are highly unlikely to go to war
42:09
with one another due to shared norms, institutional
42:12
constraints, and economic interdependence.
42:17
Empirical studies overwhelmingly show that.
42:19
So how does that? Played out.
42:20
Democracies rarely, if ever, fight full scale wars against
42:22
each other. Interesting.
42:25
Since World War Two, what? What wars have there been
42:29
between advanced democracies? The Falklands?
42:36
Does Argentina even count? I don't know.
42:39
The War of 1812 was the was the were the British a Democrat?
42:42
Yeah. Were they?
42:43
Were they? Yeah.
42:44
Yeah, they. Yeah, they were.
42:45
Well, yeah, the, well, the most notable one of all of them, the
42:53
the mother of all wars between stable, advanced democracies
42:58
would have been 1860 to 1865. Yeah, when the Union and the
43:05
Confederacy went at it. Yeah, they bring bring up a few
43:10
near misses and exceptions. India, Pakistan conflict, the
43:15
Cod Wars. I don't know what that was, but
43:19
pretty rare. It could I.
43:21
With all respect to the deceased and veterans of the COD Wars, I
43:28
don't know that it stands on the same bookshelf as the War of
43:33
1812 over the Civil War. The COD.
43:38
Wars. I never heard of that.
43:40
The COD wars, primarily Iceland and the UK fighting over fishing
43:48
rights in the North Atlantic water surrounding Iceland from
43:52
the 50s to the 70s. Interesting.
43:56
Yeah, not much, though, that's true.
43:59
It's an interesting kind of a thought experiment to think
44:02
about it. I I, you know, it's been sort of
44:05
a random circling of this, but that essential question, do you
44:10
want, do you want friends or you want people to think like you?
44:14
Yeah, 'cause probably people that think like you aren't
44:18
always going to get along. Right.
44:21
But over the long haul, do we think that it works out?
44:24
Yeah, well, and I think we see disagreement with Europe and the
44:30
United States, but I don't really think anybody's going to
44:33
war with each other. I mean, we're, you know.
44:36
Well, I mean, I don't. Think we'll go?
44:38
We were. Over Green, but several days
44:40
away from our troops being sent to Greenland and being met with
44:47
the dozens. Of dog sleds.
44:50
EU advisors who were there. We should go to Greece.
44:57
That's what we should do, Kent. We should go broadcast the
45:00
podcast live from Greenland. That'd be great.
45:03
That would be interesting. Be a good trip.
45:05
That would be interesting. Just, you know, travel's good
45:08
for you. We were in Miami this week.
45:10
We had a Uber driver who was from Cuba, and that was kind of
45:15
interesting, you know? Did you?
45:17
Get into some slang with. Them, you know, asked like, not
45:20
really. He was a really nice guy, but it
45:22
was kind of like, are you, you know, are your, your family OK.
45:25
And he was like, yeah, mom and dad are still there, but I think
45:29
they're all right. And but everybody else in the
45:32
family has moved to Miami or New Jersey.
45:35
Yeah. Which I thought was interesting.
45:37
Yeah. Well, I should let you go.
45:40
It's been good talking. Yeah, same good, good
45:42
conversation. Kind of.
45:44
Hypothetical and some things so. You know, it'd be cool.
45:48
I'd love to hear from some of our listeners, like what are
45:50
topics that are on your minds? So reach out and write us.
45:55
If you know one of us personally, ping us.
45:58
If you're someone that you've just, we've just acquired you
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Rum podcast website. Take a look at show notes, send
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talking about. Come up with some off the wall
46:14
weird question. Try to stump us.
46:17
That would be a lot of fun. It would.
46:19
It'd be easy. Hey, thanks for joining us on
46:24
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46:26
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