Latest / Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann / Psychology Series 11: Joey Toledano BCBA/ ABA Therapy / Behavior and B.F. Skinner / Education

Transcript

Psychology Series 11: Joey Toledano BCBA/ ABA Therapy / Behavior and B.F. Skinner / Education · Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann

• 0:01
  Welcome to another episode of Come Together
• 0:15
  Joey. Pop in the podcast Cherry.
• 0:18
  Yeah. We're talking about, so I don't
• 0:22
  get, I do get nervous, but my degree of nervousness changes
• 0:27
  based on how confident I am in my particular skill.
• 0:31
  So I'm very confident with my words and my ideas.
• 0:35
  So I'm not too worried about public speaking.
• 0:37
  You know, I may, I'd be nerve wracking getting up in front of
• 0:40
  a lot of people. But like my on a, on a, on a
• 0:43
  foundational level, like I'm not insecure about the about
• 0:47
  presenting information when I go to open mics, I play guitar, I'm
• 0:50
  way more insecure and I'm way more rigid and like I'm not
• 0:54
  confident in my singing or my guitar playing as much.
• 0:57
  So it's a different type of nervous.
• 1:00
  It's like, am I good enough nervous as opposed to like, oh,
• 1:02
  there's just a lot of people nervous.
• 1:03
  I think this is obviously me being a behavior analyst, this,
• 1:06
  this, I look at things like how, how behavior works, right?
• 1:09
  That's like, that's my, my automatic thing.
• 1:11
  And it's like, how motivated are you for the outcome that you're
• 1:17
  going to push through? The hard part that that.
• 1:20
  Aversive like I don't want I don't want to do this, I don't
• 1:25
  want to do this so like I think that's what it comes down to so
• 1:28
  there's. No video, we just volume it now.
• 1:30
  We'll take the video after for a real.
• 1:32
  Yeah, no way. I'm not that nervous, only a
• 1:37
  little bit. Yeah, I'm not.
• 1:39
  Yeah, go ahead. That's how I think that's in
• 1:41
  general how behavior works like. Yeah, his motivation.
• 1:46
  His motivation, we could go into the whole thing for the Ebcs,
• 1:50
  which is. What?
• 1:53
  We're we're so just a little background.
• 1:57
  I'm a behavior analyst or certified behavior analyst.
• 2:00
  That's my like certification did.
• 2:02
  You have to go to college with that.
• 2:03
  Yeah, I have a masters in applied behavior analysis, OK.
• 2:06
  And I'm actually adjunct professor.
• 2:08
  Really. Or ABA.
• 2:09
  No way. I'm so jealous.
• 2:11
  I always wanted to be an adjunct professor.
• 2:12
  I'm an adjunct high school teacher, but that's not the same
• 2:14
  thing. Well, before, before I actually
• 2:18
  had my masters, I used to teach elementary school, middle
• 2:21
  school, yeah, also part time. You walk out every day
• 2:26
  exhausted, but you're like, I can do this again.
• 2:28
  Yeah, that's a great way to describe it.
• 2:29
  And that's what I think. That's what like shows you like,
• 2:32
  OK, this is this is, this is your calling.
• 2:34
  If you could walk out exhausted but say I'll call you back
• 2:37
  tomorrow. Yeah.
• 2:37
  You know. That's a great, that's a great
• 2:39
  way to describe it. There's a big there's a big
• 2:43
  thing over there, an adjunct professor.
• 2:47
  Everyone's like, why? Sorry, there's no money in it,
• 2:50
  but. It's not about money, it's fun.
• 2:52
  It's like setting up the next generation of of students that
• 2:58
  are going to become behavior analysts and showing them and
• 3:03
  you know, whatever, we'll touch on this a little bit later, but
• 3:08
  there's obviously some in every field.
• 3:11
  There's some I don't know. In other words, I hate push
• 3:16
  back. And some of it is rightfully so.
• 3:20
  And the idea is to minimize that.
• 3:22
  We push back in terms of what? So this is jumping ahead, but
• 3:27
  like it's very easy to become have a rigid way of thinking,
• 3:31
  Yes and behaviour analysis. Oh, OK, gotcha.
• 3:34
  But in that world, behaviour analysis, is that similar to how
• 3:36
  like, let's say you go to a, let's say a doctor that
• 3:43
  specializes in MSK stuff and then you tell him, I have this,
• 3:46
  this kind of pain. He's going to only look at it
• 3:48
  through his particular lens of specialty.
• 3:50
  And it could be a jet, it could be something else, but he's not
• 3:53
  looking at it like that. So it's hard to think outside
• 3:55
  the box he's used to. Is that the what kind of thing
• 3:57
  you're describing? I wasn't describing that, but
• 3:59
  there's some very much a lot of validity to that.
• 4:02
  Because so what's your? What's your particular case?
• 4:04
  So let let me like go big background on the science.
• 4:08
  Sure, a lot of people know ABA as like autism therapy, OK.
• 4:13
  And now that's not at all what it was or what it is.
• 4:16
  Are you familiar with BF Skinner?
• 4:19
  Yeah, OK. Yeah.
• 4:20
  Sure. So he's the father, and we look
• 4:22
  at him as the father of ABA or behavior analysis.
• 4:26
  He was a radical behaviorist. What made him a radical
• 4:31
  behaviorist? Well, what made him a
• 4:33
  behaviorist is he looked at behavior, it's controllable what
• 4:37
  happens before it and what happens after it.
• 4:40
  OK, what made him the radical behaviorist, and I hope I'm
• 4:43
  right, you know this understanding.
• 4:45
  And obviously, sure there may be those that argue, but the way
• 4:51
  him a radical behaviorist is that he believed thoughts in
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  what we call internal events or private events is also a
• 4:59
  behavior which is controlled by what happens before and
• 5:01
  afterwards. When you say OK, is that does
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  thoughts equal intentions or just any kind of like head, like
• 5:09
  you know anything that's going on in your head?
• 5:10
  So because I know the contentions would brings people
• 5:14
  closer or further from an action, right?
• 5:16
  If I said something that made you feel bad, like I really
• 5:18
  didn't mean that, I'm sorry. You knowing that I didn't intend
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  for that changes the behave, changes the outcome of the
• 5:23
  behavior. So I want to, I want to ask you
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  that what do you consider a behavior?
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  And then I want to give what BF Skinner definition?
• 5:31
  Behavior, I guess, would be a physical manifestation of a
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  drive would be a physical manifestation of a drive of some
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  sort. It could be a conscious drive.
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  It could be an unconscious drive.
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  It could be a productive drive. It could be unproductive.
• 5:45
  Dr. You know, like it could be, but like first something and
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  then behavior is the is taking that drive and your body's doing
• 5:53
  something about it. So and that's that's how most
• 5:58
  people look at it, right? People look at it as an actual
• 6:00
  what I see is a behavior like that's what it is.
• 6:04
  But coming from the F Skinner and the the science of behavior
• 6:08
  analysis, the science is called behavior analysis.
• 6:11
  Yeah. Now there's different parts, but
• 6:13
  coming from him, let me just go through the parts of behavior
• 6:16
  analysis. Sure.
• 6:17
  There's there's behaviorism, There's yeah, which is like more
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  the philosophical side of like things is experimental, which is
• 6:26
  experimenting and like testing it out.
• 6:28
  There's the applied which takes that experimental and applies
• 6:31
  it, the setting. And then there's the practice,
• 6:34
  which people are more familiar with the practice and, and some
• 6:38
  of the applied there most people are familiar with the last part,
• 6:42
  which is, which is the practice of things.
• 6:44
  So they since it's based on the science, I'm going to show the
• 6:47
  connection. Why, Yeah, we have to do with
• 6:49
  each other what they have to do with each other.
• 6:51
  So now obviously there's a philosophy like people think
• 6:53
  like I think the behavior is having happening.
• 6:56
  Actually, let me jump back a step.
• 6:57
  I know. It's so far, we're doing great
• 7:00
  so far. To be a Skinner, what made him a
• 7:01
  radical behaviorist is he believed thoughts itself is a
• 7:05
  behavior. OK.
• 7:07
  And what we tell our students and what I learned in college
• 7:09
  from our professors is the dead man test.
• 7:14
  Can a dead man do it right? A dead man could do it.
• 7:16
  It's not behavior. Lying on the ground is not
• 7:18
  behavior, right? Because a dead man could do it
• 7:20
  right. So getting a cup of wine, can a
• 7:25
  dead man do it? No, No.
• 7:28
  So thoughts, can a dead man do it right?
• 7:32
  They can't do it right. So it's a behavior.
• 7:35
  The tricky part with with with with, with thoughts is that we
• 7:40
  can't see it right. So, and when we're talking about
• 7:44
  a science, we're focused on data.
• 7:46
  Yeah. Because we're we're a science
• 7:48
  here. Analysis is a science.
• 7:50
  It's not a therapy. Now we'll talk about the therapy
• 7:53
  afterwards, but it's derived from the science.
• 7:55
  So the science part is data-driven, testing it out and
• 8:00
  experimenting. It's all database.
• 8:02
  So the problem is you can't ignore EF.
• 8:07
  Skinner's thing was you can't ignore the thoughts because that
• 8:12
  in itself is a behavior, but you also have to be able to take
• 8:15
  data on it or how So how are you going to do that?
• 8:19
  That's the part of the Skinner. That's what makes him a radical
• 8:21
  behaviorist. His he he he's looked at like as
• 8:25
  a competition to, to Freud. Really.
• 8:28
  Yeah, it's it's too, it's like, it's psychology, but two
• 8:33
  different thoughts in psychology.
• 8:34
  OK, I can't say I'm an expert in Freud and his his teachings and
• 8:39
  stuff like that, but his things is more.
• 8:41
  Subconscious. Subconscious and all that.
• 8:44
  Yeah, well, we have skinners and they're like, no, you want to
• 8:47
  change behavior. You have to change your
• 8:48
  behavior. Even a thought.
• 8:51
  If you're having thoughts that you all want to have, you got to
• 8:53
  look at it from behavioral lens and change it behaviorally.
• 8:58
  Right. There's a, there's a book that I
• 9:01
  read called Chatter by guy Ethan Cross, the doctor Ethan Cross, I
• 9:05
  met, I heard, I heard about him on Huberman's, I heard him on
• 9:08
  Huberman's podcast and I bought the book chatters about the
• 9:11
  voices in your head. And how do we direct?
• 9:14
  Like they're up to our like we can, we can direct them, you
• 9:17
  know, and so like, if something in the back of someones head is
• 9:20
  I'm stressed out, I can't do this.
• 9:21
  There's ways to tangibly that's he said, why kids when they run
• 9:24
  around and kids repeat a process out loud.
• 9:27
  So for example, if they were to say like Shua, my son used to
• 9:30
  like, you know, OK, now go throw this chocolate wrap out in the
• 9:33
  garbage, like throw it in the garbage.
• 9:34
  And like while he's while he's saying that out loud, while he's
• 9:36
  throwing it out. And that's reinforcing that
• 9:39
  thought in his head. And that's all part of like, I
• 9:43
  guess the extension, like that's the voice in his head.
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  And I guess you're saying that could be an extension of his
• 9:46
  behavior? You know that just to get
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  distracted a little bit by the story.
• 9:50
  Yeah. But what happens is as a young
• 9:54
  child, yeah, they're going to repeat that to themselves.
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  The next step is they do it quieter and quieter and quieter.
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  So we're technically doing it to ourselves, but we're not doing
• 10:03
  it out. Loud, but it still works.
• 10:04
  When you say it out loud, like when I'm jogging and I like this
• 10:07
  is fine, I got this, I got this, I got this.
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  If I say on the jog, this is tough, this is tough, I'm going
• 10:11
  to stop. You know, like I have to think
• 10:14
  to myself, today I was in jujitsu and I'm by far the
• 10:17
  worst. There's only three guys there.
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  I'm by far the worst. And it's a great learning
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  experience because I get I really am humbled very often.
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  And and this guy had me and I'm and I'm right there and I'm
• 10:29
  thinking to myself, I got to tap out and I think to myself, let
• 10:31
  me just look at the clock and I see that there's 15 seconds.
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  Like I got to figure out a way to last 15 seconds.
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  And like 15 seconds when you're seeing stars is a long time.
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  But like I had to think, but I kept on saying in my head
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  thinking out, you know, 15 seconds, 14 seconds and that
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  reinforcement and that like redirecting of rather than
• 10:50
  focusing on I can't breathe, I'm focusing on 10 seconds left
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  changed everything, right? Because and it's working.
• 10:57
  I don't know. The idea is, and you'll see
• 11:00
  there is some overlap between behaviour and analysts, which is
• 11:03
  like, say the certification I have and social workers will put
• 11:07
  different terms to the same thing.
• 11:08
  Oh yeah. That seems ineffective,
• 11:11
  confusing. It seems ineffective, but you
• 11:14
  can only see it if you come to this, to the table together and
• 11:16
  collaborate, right, Which is also going back to what you said
• 11:19
  when a doctor only sees something through their lens,
• 11:22
  right. The way to expand your lens is
• 11:23
  by collaborating, right? And listening to others.
• 11:25
  Yeah. So we were talking about BF
• 11:29
  Skinner. And so it, the thought in
• 11:32
  psychology was Freud for many years, something in the 1800s,
• 11:36
  he came along and that's what he introduced that.
• 11:39
  Yeah, there was obviously Pavlov and and those things.
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  So BF Skinner came around in the 1900s.
• 11:46
  It's a relatively new science and obviously.
• 11:50
  Most of this stuff is. Most of this stuff is but
• 11:53
  comparing 1800s Freud. Yeah.
• 11:55
  To 1900s Skinner. You know, I had professors that
• 11:59
  saw Skinner. Alive, yeah.
• 12:01
  So yeah, you know, it's cool. I don't have professors that saw
• 12:04
  Freud. A lot, yeah.
• 12:04
  Yeah. You know what?
• 12:05
  I mean, so it's, it's pretty new.
• 12:12
  It makes it greater. Is it make it greater that's
• 12:14
  newer? Is that what you're asking?
• 12:17
  Yeah. Like it's, it's a more like he
• 12:21
  has all the context of Freud and then comes to his own
• 12:24
  conclusions that are separate from Freud.
• 12:27
  Like he's building on the information.
• 12:30
  Well, there's something to that because he he's not saying like
• 12:33
  this is my novel idea. When someone comes out with a
• 12:35
  novel idea and they're not aware of similar or other things,
• 12:41
  they're not really building on that.
• 12:42
  Yeah. They're just saying that that
• 12:43
  doesn't exist. Yeah.
• 12:45
  Which there's no one right way. I, I just, I really don't think
• 12:48
  I agree with that, that there's different times, different
• 12:51
  things may be more applicable. And, and, and if you know what's
• 12:56
  what came before you, you could build on that, right.
• 12:58
  So even even I see it as a science, you know, progresses
• 13:01
  over the years, even the the years that I've been certified
• 13:05
  or I've been involved in the science, I've seen it, you know,
• 13:10
  take steps like, OK, we took this data point and we're adding
• 13:14
  we're going to build on that data.
• 13:15
  We're going to build on that research.
• 13:17
  Often times I look at research studies and the question is, who
• 13:21
  were they coding? Did anybody ever do this before?
• 13:24
  No one did this before. So we got to replicate it.
• 13:27
  That's that's that's the next step.
• 13:29
  Yeah. So I think there's something to
• 13:30
  say with with BF scanner coming years later and saying this
• 13:34
  forty thing I don't think is working out.
• 13:36
  Let's try this, this behavior thing.
• 13:39
  OK, So, you know, that's the radical behaviorist part.
• 13:43
  That's why he gets that title, because he believes internal or
• 13:46
  private events are also part of behavior, also considered
• 13:49
  behavior. And the reason why they don't
• 13:52
  get so much attention even now is because because they're hard
• 13:58
  to measure. And if you're data-driven,
• 14:00
  you're science, you're data-driven.
• 14:01
  That's the way. That's what science is supposed
• 14:03
  to be. How?
• 14:04
  How could you would you say that like can you tell someone to
• 14:09
  capture their thoughts or write down their thoughts when
• 14:11
  prompted a certain way or presented a certain scenario
• 14:13
  situation and then try to like, like I know when I did, when I
• 14:17
  took second college, I had to participate in, you know,
• 14:20
  research studies and a lot of this stuff.
• 14:23
  I don't even know what I was participating in.
• 14:25
  Looking back, I'm like, oh, this makes sense.
• 14:26
  Like, you know, this professor has 400 students and like he's,
• 14:29
  and he's asking what we see, you know, what our associations are
• 14:32
  with, you know, whenever we see this picture of that thing or
• 14:34
  whatever, like that's a really great pool of data.
• 14:36
  If he does that for foreign students every semester, then he
• 14:39
  has after two years he has he has 2000 students that he could
• 14:42
  that he could draw from. I mean, often times I'm looking
• 14:45
  at the Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis, you know,
• 14:48
  Java or you know, journal experimental behavior analysis.
• 14:51
  And often times a lot of studies are done with students,
• 14:53
  students, because that's easy at this point.
• 14:56
  And it's and you want to, you know, a real, a real science and
• 15:00
  real data is, is with control groups and with, you know, so to
• 15:05
  speak, blind studies. So you want to.
• 15:10
  Explain what that is for anyone that doesn't know what control
• 15:12
  groups blind study how that stuff works.
• 15:14
  Yeah, there's, there's obviously different ways to do it.
• 15:18
  That's a that's a whole college class in itself.
• 15:20
  But obviously there's different designs.
• 15:22
  Something about ABA also is we, we wanted to focus on single
• 15:27
  subject designs. OK, the idea was that not to do
• 15:33
  like a group of people and do like percentage.
• 15:35
  No, let's do each participant and date their data and see how
• 15:41
  how it. Progresses so like giving them
• 15:43
  each. So let's say we have four people
• 15:45
  here. Yeah, instead of just putting
• 15:46
  them in a pool and just mounting all the data together and just
• 15:50
  saying out of four people, have three people or two people were
• 15:55
  successful in this. Yeah, here's four people.
• 15:58
  Person A was success was when we put in this intervention was
• 16:03
  successful. Person B was when we put in this
• 16:05
  intervention was successful. Person C wasn't successful.
• 16:10
  This is possible contributing variables.
• 16:12
  Person D We put it in, but we had to make a modification and
• 16:15
  then it was successful so that. Is I see, I see, I see.
• 16:20
  As a science, we felt that this is, it's not us, not me, but
• 16:24
  like we feel that this is the more effective and more proven
• 16:28
  data than just like grouping people in together or like
• 16:32
  respond, focusing only on what the response like, yeah, how
• 16:36
  they feel and responding on that stuff.
• 16:38
  So you say in, for example, a maybe if I understand you
• 16:42
  correctly. So like, let's say someone goes
• 16:43
  to therapy and a therapist, like, OK, talk therapy works for
• 16:47
  this person, talk therapy works for that person.
• 16:49
  It looks like therapy is not working great for that person.
• 16:52
  Let's see if they exercise three times a week, does that make a
• 16:55
  difference? OK, talk therapy works.
• 16:56
  Now with that, with exercise and talk therapy.
• 16:59
  Well, I think I'm my agile professor, so I like.
• 17:01
  So I was been involved a little bit with the research.
• 17:04
  I understand a little bit of that.
• 17:06
  The first step is and, and I'll tell us if you want to work on a
• 17:10
  study, you have to understand what the intervention is and
• 17:12
  observe and describe it in an observable and measurable term.
• 17:16
  It's one of our 7 dimensions of ABA.
• 17:21
  So what's measurable or observable, right?
• 17:24
  If you say talk therapy, that's not measurable or observable.
• 17:27
  You can measure or observe the difference in behavior over a
• 17:29
  coming week, feelings, or whatever.
• 17:31
  Well, I'm not even talking about that part.
• 17:33
  I'm talking about the actual behavior of talk therapy.
• 17:36
  Because it's a vague term, right?
• 17:38
  Right. Right, So what does talk therapy
• 17:39
  mean Is what you're asking right is.
• 17:41
  It if we say, is it? Freudian talk therapy, talking
• 17:43
  about your mom and your when you were like as a kid and your
• 17:46
  experiences were like. Or or is it not?
• 17:48
  Yeah, so that cool if we say like we're going to put in a
• 17:51
  token economy, which is let's say charts or what few tickets
• 17:54
  or people are are familiar with. If we put something in like
• 17:59
  that, how, how, how are the respondents or how are the
• 18:03
  participants going to, has their behavior going to change?
• 18:06
  That's a very, you know, observable and measurable thing.
• 18:09
  There was nothing here. We put in this working on this
• 18:14
  behavior and then it changed or it didn't change, which if you
• 18:20
  see, you see, I'm describing it as very black and white.
• 18:24
  That's where when it goes down the line and it turns into a
• 18:29
  therapy, so often, not often, but sometimes there's therapists
• 18:33
  that will present it in a rigid way.
• 18:37
  Present. The therapy in a rigid way
• 18:39
  because they're they're. But they're learning it black
• 18:41
  and white. They're learning it black and
• 18:43
  white. So as an adjunct professor, my
• 18:45
  goal is actually like to say, hey, be creative, be flexible.
• 18:49
  How do you apply creativity or flexibility to something like
• 18:52
  that in practice? So, but give me a we can talk
• 18:57
  about an example like you give me an example of a type of
• 19:01
  therapy that would be working or wouldn't be working for
• 19:04
  depending on the person and then make a difference, I guess
• 19:08
  observable difference and and then how would someone be rigid
• 19:12
  or not about that? Something could work about
• 19:16
  people but still not like it. OK, OK, so just let's say
• 19:22
  there's let's say there's BCB and let's say this BCBA is
• 19:25
  working with children of autism and really touch on like, yeah,
• 19:28
  we'll expand the the scope, you know, further on.
• 19:31
  But let's say for most people that understand BCA's work with
• 19:33
  Charlieville, they could come in, put in a token economy and
• 19:38
  it would be successful. And the parents are going to be
• 19:40
  like what? Like you're rude.
• 19:43
  You're you, you're rude. You're not, you're not
• 19:47
  personable. You're not, you're just focusing
• 19:49
  on the token of time. You're not even thinking about
• 19:51
  like the child and how he's affected by the intervention,
• 19:54
  right. And then there's taking that
• 19:56
  same intervention, but modifying it with today's a hard day.
• 20:00
  You know, today the kid didn't sleep last night.
• 20:02
  Let's adjust. Let's adjust the the the, you
• 20:07
  know, the data might be screwed for, you know, rude for that
• 20:10
  day, but you understand. When you're working with people,
• 20:13
  it's a little bit different than the lab.
• 20:16
  So especially science that's focused on on on behavior of the
• 20:24
  science is focused on behavior of all living things.
• 20:26
  So that's animals and and people.
• 20:29
  And whatever, really. So when if you're doing that,
• 20:32
  your, your research in a lab with let's say college students
• 20:35
  is going to look different when you're implementing that
• 20:37
  successful intervention with, with a child.
• 20:43
  Totally, totally. Yeah.
• 20:44
  So if you think of it like that, then it's common sense.
• 20:47
  Yeah. But if you think of it like.
• 20:49
  These are the rules. I'm taught like this and you
• 20:52
  just like copy and paste that. That's where the mistake
• 20:55
  becomes, and that's where there's.
• 20:56
  So there's a difference. So what?
• 20:58
  OK. I think So.
• 20:59
  What you're, I think you're saying is that you have the
• 21:02
  method and then you have the recipient of the method, but the
• 21:05
  recipient of the method is not always prepared to receive the
• 21:09
  therapy that the therapist is offering on or it's not going to
• 21:13
  be the same every single time. There's always going to be
• 21:14
  different contexts, or different types of days, different moods
• 21:16
  or different ages or different personalities.
• 21:19
  So correct me if I'm not, if I'm not being clear, but what I'm
• 21:23
  saying is there's, and because we're touching on the science
• 21:27
  and then we're touching on the therapy and we're touching on
• 21:28
  the applications and then the research, it's, it's very much
• 21:33
  separate what we do in a lab and what we do as a science.
• 21:35
  So. What do you do in a lab then?
• 21:37
  Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're doing in a lab as when I
• 21:39
  think, when I think of your lab, I'm thinking of actually like
• 21:42
  seeing like doing, trying that type of intervention,
• 21:46
  intervention, trying that type of therapy or intervention,
• 21:49
  seeing the results, taking note of it.
• 21:52
  And then when you're applying it right, that's.
• 21:54
  On a mass scale. You're taking it from the
• 21:56
  experimental design, which is obviously is more lab based with
• 22:02
  any science, whether it's whether it's with pigeons or or
• 22:08
  rats or people, rats or people. And then when you're putting it
• 22:12
  in as applied as a service that that's going to look different,
• 22:17
  right? Because as a service you have to
• 22:19
  be personable. You take into other account that
• 22:22
  there's other variable. I feel like I'm being confusing
• 22:26
  for no reason but. No, I think I understand what
• 22:28
  you're saying. So you have the initial like
• 22:30
  let's say you're. You're you're experimenting with
• 22:32
  a new method, but you're slowly observing.
• 22:35
  It so we'll jump in and say if you're, if you're a therapist,
• 22:39
  you're likely not focused on the research chart.
• 22:42
  You're not. You're not testing out those new
• 22:44
  those new methods. You're applying the methods that
• 22:46
  you learned already that have already been.
• 22:48
  Established in school, whether it's research articles or
• 22:50
  whether you know the journals, you know, which is why it's so
• 22:54
  important to be up to date with, with the up and coming journals
• 22:57
  and like the new research that comes out when they're seeing a
• 22:59
  conference and seeing a study that someone else applied and
• 23:03
  then take it to the next step. And with every, every
• 23:06
  intervention, you know, this is like a joke that someone said
• 23:11
  they're like, does this field attract rigid people or does
• 23:14
  this field make rigid people rigid?
• 23:16
  I don't know. I don't know what the right
• 23:19
  answer is. I don't know, but I know that as
• 23:22
  professionals, as as you know, touching on that agile professor
• 23:26
  piece, our job is to pass on that.
• 23:29
  It's not a rigid thing. Have that conversation be
• 23:32
  personable. You know whether it's whether
• 23:37
  you know if you need a little help reading Dale Carnegie.
• 23:41
  He's a boring writer. He's a boring writer in my
• 23:44
  opinion. Yeah, very difficult to read.
• 23:45
  You're talking about, like the seven ways to influence people.
• 23:49
  Whatever. No, that's that's COVID.
• 23:53
  How to make friends and influence?
• 23:54
  People I don't make friends and influence people.
• 23:55
  That's Dale Carnegie. That's Dale Carnegie.
• 23:56
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought you were saying 7. 7
• 23:59
  Habits Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, that yeah, that book was hard
• 24:01
  for. Me to read the Dale Carnegie,
• 24:02
  the Dale Carnegie want. Obviously I'm listening to it
• 24:04
  again for like the third time. How is it?
• 24:06
  How is it auditorily as opposed to on papers?
• 24:09
  Because I can't get through. It I'm a very slow reader in
• 24:11
  general, and to sit down and read is much harder.
• 24:14
  Yeah, but in the car listening to it in the background and I'm
• 24:18
  like, OK, I'm picking up also, since I've read it before about
• 24:23
  it, it's just like more of a refresher.
• 24:26
  I have a colleague, David Rubenfeld.
• 24:28
  He always says, like, this is Dale Carnegie is social skills
• 24:34
  for Adults. Yeah, that's what the book is.
• 24:35
  Totally. And once he said that, I was
• 24:37
  like, yeah, it is tend. To be a likable person.
• 24:40
  Part of teaching social skills, you know, whether we work with
• 24:42
  adults or children, it's going to obviously look different, but
• 24:45
  this is like a good blueprint. I was speaking to Doctor Hanley,
• 24:51
  who's, you know, a big person in the field, and I was like, what
• 24:55
  do you think about Dale Carnegie?
• 24:56
  He's like, ah, it's, it's great. So you see that the
• 24:58
  professionals are. Yeah, big fans.
• 25:00
  Are a big fan of like, you know, material material and like it
• 25:05
  not being ABC or D. Like you have to learn how to
• 25:07
  talk to people when you're on the service delivery side as
• 25:10
  opposed to the lab side where it's just like students come in.
• 25:15
  This is the question, yes or no, Stuff like that.
• 25:18
  I feel like I'm jumping around too much.
• 25:21
  I think you're doing, I think that's.
• 25:22
  That's just like, that's my ADHD, Like, yeah, yeah.
• 25:25
  That is great. Oh yeah.
• 25:27
  So going back. I guess to go back to the
• 25:30
  science, there's a phospho, there's experimental and then
• 25:35
  taking that experimental and applying it.
• 25:37
  So there's experimental in the lab, and then there's applying
• 25:39
  it to at. What point does experimental
• 25:41
  become mainstream? What's accepted by Journal?
• 25:44
  Well, there's experimental and there's applied, right?
• 25:46
  There's a separate journal. There's the journal Experimental
• 25:50
  Applied Behavior Analysis. There's different tiers.
• 25:53
  And then there's the journal Applied Behavior Analysis.
• 25:56
  I look at it, I could be I'm wrong.
• 25:58
  I look at it as steps. It goes from experimental to
• 26:00
  applied, and then you're as a professional, you're looking at
• 26:03
  the applied and you're applying it to.
• 26:05
  But as an as a researcher or as a scientist, you're looking at
• 26:07
  experimental too. So, so you in particular would
• 26:11
  be looking at the experimental. Most therapists would not would
• 26:14
  be looking at applied or whatever is out there.
• 26:16
  Yeah, I mean, I think it's important for for therapists,
• 26:19
  even if you're not going to look at applied to look at
• 26:20
  experimental like just hear what's out there, hear what's
• 26:23
  going because it's very possible you could implement it.
• 26:27
  And then there are some big changes that surprised you
• 26:28
  recently. What are some big like, was
• 26:30
  anything like shocking that that like came out experimentally
• 26:35
  that you were like, oh, that's cool.
• 26:36
  Or oh, that's like different. No, because I can't say I'm
• 26:40
  reading everyone. You know, when when the journal
• 26:42
  comes to my door, it's like for a year and it's like I usually
• 26:46
  try to skim through it. There's so to go.
• 26:50
  So obviously going back in the science not to get too, you
• 26:53
  know, distracted by the research part, there's the science
• 26:55
  focusing on what behavior is and how behavior works.
• 26:57
  Yes. And let's talk about that.
• 26:59
  Thoughts, thoughts are behavior, thoughts, behavior.
• 27:02
  And let's say you're thirsty. What's the behavior you're going
• 27:04
  to do? So let's say the, a, the, the,
• 27:07
  the beginning part is you're thirsty, you're going to go get
• 27:09
  a drink, right? You drink, you're satiated when
• 27:13
  you're thirsty. Next time, are you more likely
• 27:14
  to get a drink? More likely.
• 27:17
  Than if you wouldn't have so let me you're you're you're thirsty
• 27:21
  you're going to get a drink drink is getting a drink.
• 27:23
  Is the behavior satisfied? Satisfied is the consequence.
• 27:29
  Consequence doesn't mean bad over here.
• 27:30
  When we we use consequence, we just.
• 27:32
  Result the results. Yeah, and based on your
• 27:35
  consequence, someone's more likely or less likely.
• 27:38
  To do that behavior again, I'm assuming more.
• 27:40
  Because the satisfaction is a good in this case, right?
• 27:43
  Yeah, in this case, it would be more, yeah.
• 27:46
  So that's basically how they look at every behavior.
• 27:50
  And if you understand that the science is just studying
• 27:53
  behavior, it's impossible for it to be incorrect.
• 27:58
  For behavior to be incorrect for for this.
• 28:00
  Science to be incorrect. Now the third what?
• 28:03
  Why would the science be incorrect?
• 28:06
  How could the? I think I'm answering a question
• 28:07
  that like, you don't even know. Like, yeah, you don't know about
• 28:09
  the backlash to the science. So what?
• 28:13
  The premise is the premise. What's the premise over here?
• 28:16
  The premise of the statement is that a behavior with a
• 28:20
  consequence that behavior is. Controlled by what happens
• 28:23
  before and after. OK, so for example, let's say
• 28:27
  I'm thirsty and I decided to get in the car and drive to Publix
• 28:31
  to get a bottle of water. And I'm like this, this is kind
• 28:33
  of stupid because I have a bottle of water at home, so I
• 28:35
  didn't need to do that. And so I so I tried to come
• 28:38
  home. The next time I'm home, I'm
• 28:39
  like, I'm not going to get up and go to Publix because that
• 28:41
  required a lot of effort. And so I'm actually going to.
• 28:43
  I think you're going to a different thing of of like I
• 28:46
  think the term is response cost, like how how much effort it
• 28:51
  takes. To accomplish the goal, right,
• 28:52
  OK. But let's say you would drink
• 28:55
  water and you you felt satisfied, but the next time you
• 28:59
  drink soda and you're like, this is not satiating all the time.
• 29:02
  Then you're not going to drink soda again.
• 29:03
  Not soda again, but like when you're.
• 29:05
  Thirsty. You're not going to go for it
• 29:06
  then, right? OK, that checks out.
• 29:09
  OK, gotcha. So that's just like a good
• 29:11
  example. That's just like a yeah.
• 29:12
  It's a perfect example to make a point, but yeah.
• 29:14
  If we look at behavior, every single behavior like that, yeah.
• 29:17
  Now sometimes it takes a little bit more digging.
• 29:21
  What happened before? What's the consequence?
• 29:22
  Sometimes the before should be way in the past, sometimes it
• 29:25
  will be in the future. And the same thing goes for and
• 29:32
  then the same thing goes for when you have competing
• 29:34
  behaviors, right? What let's say someone's like, I
• 29:40
  know I have to do work, but I can sit on my phone and scroll.
• 29:43
  Let me just sit on the phone and scroll because it's easier to
• 29:45
  sit in your phone and scroll and get that reinforcement that.
• 29:48
  And you know, and you also know the consequences.
• 29:50
  I bet like you know, that you like scrolling you.
• 29:53
  Know, but you know the consequences that if you work
• 29:56
  it's better off for you. Like theoretically you know
• 29:59
  that. If it's not a one to one
• 30:00
  correlation, which is why I think that people have a hard
• 30:03
  time with that. I think if if it was a 1 to 1
• 30:04
  correlation, you have a much better time with a much easier
• 30:06
  time with it. Well, it's competing behaviors.
• 30:08
  And what takes more? More or.
• 30:09
  Less response, right? Yeah.
• 30:11
  It it takes less like response effort, it takes less effort on
• 30:15
  your end to yeah, we're good. Yeah.
• 30:19
  It takes less effort on your end to scroll on your phone then
• 30:25
  than it is to get up than to it is to just change the app on
• 30:28
  your phone. To my work app A.
• 30:30
  Work app and answer a couple of emails.
• 30:33
  OK, but now we're talking about, but now you just changed from.
• 30:36
  I just changed to. Motivate.
• 30:38
  I brought into another, I brought in another principle,
• 30:40
  which is episode, which is, which is effort.
• 30:44
  It's how much effort it will take to get the reinforcement
• 30:49
  because you'll feel accomplished after you get through a bunch of
• 30:51
  emails correct Or anything. Yeah, totally.
• 30:54
  I feel great. Right.
• 30:55
  So what so you have that, you have that reinforcement on that
• 30:58
  side, but in the in the moment you're like, hey, takes less
• 31:02
  effort to do this, so you're more likely to to do that.
• 31:05
  That makes sense. The way that I, I read, I enemy
• 31:08
  the whole thing, but I've read, I've read chunks of Danny
• 31:10
  Kahman, Daniel Kahman's What's the book called?
• 31:14
  Thinking Fast and Slow. And one of the things that he
• 31:17
  says is he's a Nobel Prize winner for, for economics, but
• 31:22
  based on, on decision making and people and, and behavior.
• 31:25
  And one of the things he says that we have a limited amount of
• 31:29
  mental budget for things that require effort and like, and it
• 31:34
  gets depleted, right. So let's say hypothetically,
• 31:37
  it's hard for me. I'm trying to be healthy.
• 31:39
  It's hard for me to eat healthy. So it's hard for me to exercise,
• 31:42
  right? If I take if, if at the end of
• 31:44
  the day, so I'm already expending my energy, the X
• 31:48
  amount of energy is already going to be spent getting up,
• 31:50
  going, you know, taking my kids to school, going to school,
• 31:54
  working. And at the end of the day, I'm
• 31:57
  almost out of energy, right? I'm going to choose to go for a
• 32:00
  jog. When I come back from that jog,
• 32:01
  it's going to be way harder for me to hold back from eating that
• 32:05
  piece of cake because I've already depleted a lot of the
• 32:08
  I've already depleted my tank of that conscious effort.
• 32:12
  And now that I have less, and now that I don't have as much in
• 32:15
  the tank, it's going to be harder for me to make decisions
• 32:17
  that require more effort or intention behind this.
• 32:20
  Yeah, that's interesting. OK.
• 32:22
  Yeah. But I imagine that's similar to
• 32:25
  that, but I guess that could tie into it, you know?
• 32:28
  It could tie into it because. Scrolling is effortless.
• 32:31
  That's how people like it. Well.
• 32:33
  You know why people like scrolling?
• 32:35
  Because you're getting the instant gratification for that,
• 32:37
  too. Yeah.
• 32:38
  And it's novel. It's quick, it's a blast.
• 32:41
  It's an instant gratification. You're getting that that I don't
• 32:45
  know if I'm using the right drug, but dopamine?
• 32:47
  Yeah, that is yeah, dopamine. Here but you're getting that
• 32:51
  that and that's the reinforcement right so you may
• 32:53
  as a teacher think like oh reinforcement is giving my
• 32:56
  students tickets or candies right but there's that dopamine
• 33:00
  is also reinforcing that behavior of scrolling so and we
• 33:04
  how behavior works if something something's only called
• 33:08
  reinforcing if it increases if it if the behavior will increase
• 33:12
  yeah OK we use this term in in in the science of ABA.
• 33:18
  Obviously it's going to you know, people don't look at this
• 33:20
  term is that, but if something's punishing, yeah, then they won't
• 33:23
  do that behavior again. OK OK right.
• 33:26
  So if if someone tries to put in their bathtub real life
• 33:33
  experience, they try to you know they're having construction done
• 33:36
  and they try to help out and put their bathtub into the place and
• 33:41
  the bathtub cracks, right? That was a consequence.
• 33:44
  They tried doing this out they're.
• 33:46
  Not going to try again next time.
• 33:48
  Now, they didn't get punished, they didn't get slapped or hurt,
• 33:51
  but that's that that. But the fact they may have gone,
• 33:53
  they may have gone punished. They got punished in a different
• 33:55
  way. They exerted effort without the
• 33:57
  outcome they wanted. And then they probably cost
• 33:59
  money to cut someone else to put them in, to put it in.
• 34:01
  So now you. Feel like you.
• 34:02
  The punishments focus on the consequence, so now that the
• 34:05
  effort it's focused on, now they have a cracked tub.
• 34:07
  But you're waiting, but you're weighing the effort versus the
• 34:09
  consequence. I think we all are.
• 34:11
  If you say I worked so hard for something, you didn't get
• 34:13
  anything out of it, well, you'd be like, oh, that's I don't want
• 34:16
  to do that again because I didn't feel like I got.
• 34:18
  The effort. The effort is before the
• 34:19
  behaviour, correct? Once you complete the behaviour,
• 34:22
  what happens after the behaviour is likely going to decide
• 34:26
  whether you're going to do that behaviour again or not, right?
• 34:29
  Someone pushes themselves to public speak.
• 34:33
  And it's a nightmare. It's a nightmare.
• 34:35
  They are less likely to do it again.
• 34:38
  Correct. It's an extreme success.
• 34:41
  Yo, what's the next? What's the next?
• 34:43
  What's the next engagement? When can I speak next?
• 34:45
  Yeah. So something like that.
• 34:48
  And it happens. We do with with people.
• 34:50
  We meet and speak to. You speak to someone, what about
• 34:54
  what did you walk away like, oh, this is a knowledgeable
• 34:56
  conversation. Often times you're going to go
• 34:58
  back to that person, right? So it's happening everywhere.
• 35:02
  This this, this before, after, sure, before and after and the
• 35:06
  behavior, but people don't look at it on a daily basis.
• 35:09
  So I. Think about it pretty regular as
• 35:10
  a teacher. Well, as a teacher, it's a, it's
• 35:14
  a little bit different because you're you, you can sometimes
• 35:16
  see when you, your action, what happens.
• 35:22
  Well, how do your students react?
• 35:23
  Or something like that. I, I don't even need to see.
• 35:25
  I don't even need to see. So I don't need to see the
• 35:28
  responses necessarily because I know I'm trusting the process of
• 35:31
  what you're saying. For example, I had a student
• 35:33
  yesterday just yells out a curse word in the middle of the class.
• 35:35
  I throw them out, right, goodbye.
• 35:37
  Thank you very much for coming. See you later.
• 35:39
  I get along with, you know, an actual.
• 35:42
  And one of the challenges that I, I, I'm aware of and that I,
• 35:45
  I, I, I, I deal with head on is that because I'm laid back, a
• 35:48
  lot of my students think they can take advantage of me.
• 35:51
  And that's, and so they're always surprised when I throw
• 35:54
  them out of class and I'm always rigid about it when I throw them
• 35:57
  out. I say, I'm very sorry.
• 35:59
  We'll try again tomorrow. There's a consequence to your
• 36:01
  behavior. And I don't want you to think
• 36:03
  that this behavior has no consequences.
• 36:06
  So when you yell out a curse word in the middle of class, if
• 36:08
  it won't help me, it won't help you figure out me, it won't help
• 36:11
  you. If, If there's no, if there's
• 36:14
  no, if there's nothing on the other end of that, that is that
• 36:16
  means anything to you. So I'm going to put a little
• 36:19
  spin on it and and I'm not saying that you were wrong in
• 36:22
  throwing them out, of course, but I want to like show you how
• 36:25
  you throwing them out could be either a punishment or a
• 36:29
  reinforcement for them. OK.
• 36:31
  They're sending a class. They're like shoots.
• 36:33
  I can't. I got to get out of here.
• 36:34
  I can't deal with this. Yell a curse word.
• 36:37
  You send them out, they're free. Yeah, right.
• 36:39
  They got what they want. Another good class.
• 36:41
  Enjoying your class, Right? Comfortable says a curse word,
• 36:45
  thought he would get a laugh from his friends and said he got
• 36:47
  sent out. That that same action that you
• 36:51
  followed the behavior with? Yes, we just described two ways
• 36:54
  of how it could be punishing and reinforcing.
• 36:56
  Yes, correct. So often time people think like
• 37:00
  I punish my kids, I give them time out, yeah.
• 37:03
  But if they don't care, they don't mean.
• 37:04
  Anything but it's not about them not caring if that's what they
• 37:06
  want or that then then they. You're actually giving them
• 37:09
  their desired goal. So the same thing is like this
• 37:13
  thing in a preference assessment, it's called in the
• 37:17
  science and in the applied side and the therapy side where you
• 37:21
  could have two kids that you're working with, one kid who want a
• 37:23
  candy, one could who want chips. And if you give the kid that
• 37:27
  wants candy chips, unless it's not, even though it's following
• 37:31
  the behavior, it doesn't mean it's going to be reinforcing.
• 37:34
  That's the flaw with the marshmallow test, because you're
• 37:36
  not assuming that all the kids want marshmallows.
• 37:38
  That's a good point, I never thought about it.
• 37:42
  That's actually great. Yeah.
• 37:45
  Wow. But yeah, I never actually
• 37:48
  thought about it like that. Applies to the marshmallow test.
• 37:50
  I didn't either until the second, yeah.
• 37:52
  But that is a big flaw with the marshmallow.
• 37:54
  That's because, yeah, because two people, you've got two
• 37:57
  people in the same room and they can both find different.
• 37:59
  Context, Just to elaborate on the story.
• 38:01
  I almost I do understand that the students because what I do
• 38:06
  is I give them an abstinence for thrown out, but I give them an
• 38:08
  opportunity to all my students have an opportunity to get up,
• 38:12
  get up and just walk around. If they get walk like take a
• 38:14
  walk if they need for three to 5 minutes without consequences.
• 38:17
  So they all know like they know I actually enforce, I reinforce
• 38:21
  be mature. If you feel like you can't
• 38:23
  control yourself, get up and take a walk for three minutes,
• 38:25
  come back. And if I do throw you out, then
• 38:28
  there's consequences because obviously you haven't been
• 38:30
  mature enough to decide by yourself that you're that you
• 38:32
  can get that you need to get up and walk out.
• 38:35
  And so this is now the new repercussion.
• 38:37
  Just check. But that took time to work on by
• 38:38
  the way. It took it, took it.
• 38:41
  Took at all questioning, you know, but I was saying it, I was
• 38:44
  going to film the education education and I, I don't think
• 38:48
  that when I, I was teaching that I had that conscious thing, you
• 38:53
  know, now that it's wrong. I don't.
• 38:54
  I think often times teachers aren't taught that it's not
• 38:58
  about throwing them out, throwing them out.
• 38:59
  Throwing them out sometimes could be reinforcing to the
• 39:02
  teacher. Yeah, I got.
• 39:03
  I did the behavior of throwing a kid out and now my classroom is
• 39:06
  quiet. It's a power, it's a, it's a
• 39:07
  power play, too. But there's the power struggle.
• 39:11
  But it's also going back to the behavior, right?
• 39:14
  The teacher threw someone out. Now he's reinforced by getting
• 39:17
  the behavior that he wants from other students.
• 39:19
  And not just that, but he's also reinforced that his classroom's
• 39:22
  quieter. OK, so then he's what we could
• 39:25
  we could look at both. I don't think either 1.
• 39:27
  I don't. Think it's Yes, yes, yes.
• 39:28
  I don't think it's completely wrong.
• 39:29
  Yes, Yes, Yes, yes. But a teacher could is probably
• 39:32
  more likely to throw someone out the next time, yes, than that.
• 39:36
  The the and there's some great people in the field like Doctor
• 39:39
  Paul Galloni and Anika Asta, who created a plans for schools that
• 39:46
  it's not about just throwing the kids out.
• 39:47
  It's about throwing them out. I hate to use this word,
• 39:50
  throwing them out, but something out of class.
• 39:52
  They don't just send them out of class.
• 39:53
  It's also about sending them out of class and having them
• 39:55
  complete the work they have to do in class, right?
• 39:57
  So they didn't get out of the work.
• 39:59
  They didn't get that free, you know, And they have a whole book
• 40:02
  on that, which is really, really great.
• 40:04
  But that comes from understanding the science that
• 40:07
  there's a lot of, there's a lot of lot of things playing out in
• 40:11
  general. Skinner, Broaden.
• 40:14
  Pavlov. Into the science and.
• 40:17
  They lived at the same time. No, Pavel is it was earlier.
• 40:20
  Earlier I don't. Know when Pavel is.
• 40:22
  From yeah, I think it was like in the 1800s.
• 40:25
  OK, but I could be I'm totally wrong.
• 40:26
  Yeah, tell you right now, Yeah. But we're on a hot seat right
• 40:30
  now, yeah. Sorry, we need a, We need a guy
• 40:33
  in. Verification.
• 40:34
  Yeah, he's yeah. 1849 to 19361936 When was when was
• 40:41
  Skinner? Alive, it could be the inter
• 40:44
  they cross, but I think I don't want to even make things out.
• 40:46
  But he's early 1900s. 19 O 4/19/90 yeah, he would have been
• 40:51
  like 20 when he when when Pavlov died so.
• 40:54
  Very much. It could be that there was some
• 40:55
  interaction, I don't know, but he brought that into science
• 40:58
  about that's how behavior works and conditioning.
• 41:01
  Skinner gets a lot of Flack because his original research
• 41:04
  was done with rats and pigeons, which is what maybe you heard of
• 41:07
  him from or you know him from. I think.
• 41:10
  I guess the truth is I don't even remember where I know his
• 41:12
  name from. His his idea was that when he
• 41:16
  was testing these behavioral principles, Yeah.
• 41:19
  But you know, what happens before what happens?
• 41:21
  A response. Call pigeons are intelligent and
• 41:23
  rats are very intelligent and we know that both animals could, I
• 41:25
  think a pigeon could carry out, follow a set of directions.
• 41:28
  That's why you had quote UN quote messenger pigeons, you
• 41:30
  know, back. I guess that would that would
• 41:32
  make. Sense they're intelligent
• 41:33
  animals. Yeah, but the idea is that they
• 41:36
  also do research with fish. I don't think BF, I don't think
• 41:39
  BF scanner did it, but there are labs in the US that's cool that
• 41:42
  are doing applied behavior analysis.
• 41:43
  Really. With fish, With fish and.
• 41:45
  I don't want people get so, so used to like, hey, if we're
• 41:48
  doing it with fish and animals, how are you?
• 41:50
  How are you doing with humans? Yeah, which is a valid question,
• 41:55
  but it doesn't. One thing doesn't take away from
• 41:57
  another. When I was in, when I was in an
• 42:02
  aquarium, I think in, so one of maybe a Miami aquarium, you
• 42:08
  know, I saw them training like one of these, the dolphins or
• 42:11
  whatever, one of these things. I don't know what dolphins.
• 42:13
  Are also super smart. They were using the principles
• 42:16
  of ABA. Yeah.
• 42:17
  OK. And I walk into a clinic or I
• 42:19
  walk into a classroom, or I walk into, I walk into a classroom,
• 42:23
  any regular classroom. Let's not talk, you know, let's
• 42:26
  talk typical developing children.
• 42:30
  And they're using the same principles.
• 42:32
  So it's it's the principles of how behavior works.
• 42:36
  Yeah. It's not just because it's
• 42:38
  focused on animals. But people are animals too.
• 42:41
  That's something we don't like to think, but we are we.
• 42:42
  Don't like to think about it, but our behavior works in
• 42:44
  similar ways. Yeah.
• 42:46
  And I think, yeah. And there's also, there are
• 42:51
  similar. There are similar.
• 42:53
  I believe it for sure, especially with something like a
• 42:56
  dolphin or a whale or something like that.
• 42:58
  That has a little more. Whales have accents depending
• 43:02
  where they're from. Oh.
• 43:03
  Really. Yeah, I did not know that.
• 43:04
  That's. Pretty cool.
• 43:06
  It's all vibrations. So the way that they make, the
• 43:09
  way that they make their their vibration based on where they're
• 43:13
  Australian whales sound differently than Arctic and then
• 43:15
  Antarctican whales. Crazy sense and everything.
• 43:18
  Yeah, it's really cool. Like, do they understand each
• 43:21
  other's accents? Because like, sometimes you know
• 43:22
  how you speak this. About.
• 43:23
  Yeah, it takes some time to adjust, by the way.
• 43:26
  Seriously, it takes. I have.
• 43:27
  I have a friend that's Irish and he moved here like 30 years ago,
• 43:32
  35 years ago. And he still has the same
• 43:34
  accent. Like the day he landed.
• 43:35
  Really. Yeah, the day he landed there.
• 43:37
  Become like Americanized. I think and maybe you know this
• 43:39
  more, but I think there's a certain age, I think after like
• 43:42
  20 or 25 that if you come to if you that that you're like, you
• 43:45
  don't, you can't, you don't adopt to you might be able to
• 43:48
  learn to copy it, but you don't, it doesn't default.
• 43:51
  It you're saying it's not going to change, it's not going to
• 43:53
  it's not going to. But you know, the Israeli guys,
• 43:55
  they like have been here for 30 years and they still sound like
• 43:57
  they just got off off the plane yesterday.
• 43:59
  Like, like there's a reason like if they'll probably tell you
• 44:02
  most of them have got came to came to America when they're in
• 44:04
  their early 20s after the brains already been mostly developed at
• 44:07
  that point. I'm.
• 44:08
  Going to say that I think the big factor is who they hang out
• 44:10
  with. That too.
• 44:12
  Because I think that shapes it. Not this Irish guy.
• 44:15
  This Irish guy is married to an American girl and works with
• 44:16
  Americans all day. Right, but if he so not, I'm not
• 44:19
  saying who they hang out with because of who they are, but who
• 44:22
  they hang out with. Like if they if, if you, if his
• 44:25
  wife who was American would be whoever is married, you know who
• 44:29
  he's married to an American and the Americans like I don't what,
• 44:32
  what, what do you say? They would.
• 44:34
  It would slowly shape their behavior over time, their speech
• 44:36
  over time, to sound more American.
• 44:39
  You would think but I couldn't understand him for the first
• 44:43
  like. Did you, did you, did your
• 44:45
  understanding change or did he adjust?
• 44:47
  I, I adjusted, I got, I got used to it.
• 44:50
  And I've had, I had AI, had a Caruso, I had a guy I learned
• 44:53
  with that's the Hasidic guy from Manchester, you know, years ago.
• 44:58
  I'm still, I still talk to every now and then, but he, I took me
• 45:01
  all when I was, when I, when we would learn consistently
• 45:04
  together on a, you know, 3 or 4 nights a week, I'd be able to
• 45:07
  understand him way better. And then I wouldn't see him for
• 45:08
  six months and I'd see him again.
• 45:09
  And it'd be like grasping to like, understand.
• 45:12
  Him It sounds like your behavior is being shaped by them not
• 45:16
  Knock Hodges yeah, no one's saying like oh I'm shaping my.
• 45:20
  Or my. Speech or whatever your yeah,
• 45:23
  yeah, yeah, your understanding. Yeah.
• 45:24
  It's being for sure it is I'm becoming familiar with.
• 45:26
  That familiar with that over time, yeah, because you're
• 45:29
  you're being put in that like a reversive thing like let me try
• 45:33
  harder to listen and and whatever do you think if you
• 45:36
  guys spent more time together his behavior would be shaped as
• 45:39
  well. His speech would be shaped as
• 45:41
  well. Certainly think so.
• 45:43
  I had a friend of mine, I had a friend of mine.
• 45:47
  He he had a funny thing that he would do like a tick that he
• 45:49
  would do. And I used to make, I used to
• 45:52
  make fun of him, not actually like say hi, how you do this,
• 45:55
  but I would do it also like in, in context.
• 45:58
  And then we both end up doing it a ton.
• 45:59
  And you know, and one person who we're hanging out with was like,
• 46:03
  why do you do that? And I'm like, and I'm like, oh,
• 46:06
  I'm just making fun of have my coffee.
• 46:07
  And he goes, are you kidding? I'm like what?
• 46:08
  He's like, I started because you do it.
• 46:10
  You know, the entire time that it was my behaviour that
• 46:13
  started, I, I, I was unconscious and then he copied me and then I
• 46:18
  copied him, being completely unaware that he was copying me.
• 46:21
  Dude, it was such a bizarre. That's a crazy trip.
• 46:26
  That that's a trip. That's a trip.
• 46:28
  That's like, how much of that that, how much do I do that?
• 46:30
  I'm not aware. Of but I was just about to say
• 46:32
  that and that just shows you like we, we do so much things
• 46:35
  that we're not aware of, whether it's whether it's because of our
• 46:38
  our antecedent, like what happened before the behaviour,
• 46:41
  whether it was years ago, whether it was a little few
• 46:43
  minutes ago, yeah. Or whether or whether it's it's
• 46:47
  that the consequence that that's shaping it.
• 46:51
  You know, I think this goes a little bit on to like the Freud
• 46:54
  side. Yeah, but like, if people have
• 46:56
  triggers, right? Why do they have triggers?
• 46:58
  That's probably that that antecedent, that thing that
• 47:00
  happened before the behavior, then that's that's trigger them.
• 47:04
  To what are you saying? It's associations?
• 47:06
  I think triggers their associations.
• 47:08
  Associations. Associations is the same thing
• 47:11
  as antecedent behavior consequence, right?
• 47:13
  Antecedent behavior. Consequence is what happened
• 47:15
  before the behavior, the behavior and acid behavior.
• 47:18
  And then your association with something that's similar to it.
• 47:21
  Well, if you, if you had an antecedent, you did a certain
• 47:25
  behavior and you got the consequences you wanted, it's
• 47:28
  probably more likely to for you for it to happen again, right.
• 47:31
  If maybe if people are in different social situations,
• 47:34
  they found that if they hide in a corner safer, it's safer.
• 47:39
  So it's they had that consequence of feeling safer.
• 47:42
  Yeah, I'm sorry, but I would be safe.
• 47:45
  I would be I would be confident to say that if they were in
• 47:48
  another social where they felt a similar way, they'll probably do
• 47:52
  the same behavior and get the same consequence.
• 47:56
  Yeah, because they know that that that that, that, that that
• 48:00
  behavior. So using that word trigger, that
• 48:02
  word association I think is the same thing as saying what
• 48:06
  happens before the behavior. Yeah, trigger association and
• 48:08
  seated and it's going to make what happened based on what the
• 48:12
  consequence was last time. It's make their behaviour.
• 48:14
  And that being said, so when people would say you're
• 48:16
  triggering me means that I've been in a similar situation
• 48:19
  where I've had a similar conversation.
• 48:20
  I did not like the outcome and so please don't have the
• 48:23
  conversation with me. Yeah, it's pretty cool.
• 48:24
  And then I'm not getting a light bulb right now like it.
• 48:27
  But that's almost like, I'm not, you know, not in a mean way, but
• 48:30
  that's almost childish to like say that every situation, like
• 48:32
  we know that not every situation is the same, especially like
• 48:35
  with a vague thing like a conversation, right?
• 48:38
  If let's say I'm asking you to understand an idea that you're
• 48:40
  saying, and I'm asking you the idea to break down your idea and
• 48:43
  to make you feel like an idiot when I was asking you the idea
• 48:47
  because I want to understand. You there's a concept called
• 48:49
  faulty stimulus. OK, OK.
• 48:51
  That means you're reacting to the wrong thing.
• 48:53
  Yeah. Maybe we would say that in this
• 48:55
  case, there's something that's happened before that's faulty,
• 49:00
  that's triggering. Yeah, that's triggering that.
• 49:04
  You ever notice people try to teach their kid a color, right.
• 49:08
  We have this green can here. Yeah, I'm going to say can.
• 49:12
  OK. I pull out something else that's
• 49:15
  green. I'm going to say what color is
• 49:17
  this? Or let's, let's do actually,
• 49:20
  let's be more realistic, right? We have two cans here.
• 49:22
  Yeah. OK.
• 49:23
  I want to teach you that this is can, OK.
• 49:26
  The person I'm teaching it to learned that green can is can.
• 49:31
  Yeah. So they might assume that
• 49:33
  everything green is called can, right.
• 49:35
  But if I show you this other can that's not green, it's not
• 49:37
  called can. Yeah.
• 49:38
  So that's what faulty stimulus is.
• 49:40
  And it happens very often when people are trying to teach new
• 49:42
  skills, but skills especially for younger, younger kids or
• 49:46
  newer skills to, to to even, even though, I don't know, start
• 49:52
  again. With jiu jitsu, by the way, same
• 49:53
  thing. Yeah, you can be taught that you
• 49:56
  react. And try to do something in a
• 49:57
  different context and like, that's the dumbest thing you can
• 49:59
  do. And I'm like, I just, you just
• 50:00
  told me to do it before. I'm like, yeah, but only there.
• 50:02
  And I'm like, right? You're reacting to the wrong.
• 50:04
  The wrong. Yeah, Stimulus, I think that
• 50:07
  going back to where you were saying how it's maybe childish,
• 50:11
  maybe that's where it's childish from, right?
• 50:14
  You're thinking it as a childish, but really?
• 50:16
  Well, I'm not. I'm not.
• 50:17
  Yeah, of course. They're reacting to the wrong
• 50:19
  part of of. Totally.
• 50:21
  Totally. But that should be made clear
• 50:23
  like meaning. I don't think people realize
• 50:25
  people, people I don't think people like right now dissecting
• 50:28
  it. I don't think I ever thought of
• 50:30
  so much of A trigger as in this thing that we just brought up.
• 50:33
  Right. But, but I would probably say
• 50:36
  that if you know that, another example is, you know, I know my
• 50:42
  my dad and I work together, right?
• 50:43
  And I and we have a great relationship 90% of the time.
• 50:46
  95% of the time, right. Pretty good.
• 50:48
  Yeah. It's awesome.
• 50:49
  It took years, by the way. It's like 5050.
• 50:55
  Thank God. And a huge part of it was that I
• 50:59
  learned that there's a way to communicate with him.
• 51:06
  And so there's so there's an idea I'm trying to convey.
• 51:08
  We have an order that has to get out to a customer.
• 51:11
  I could call him and I could say this order has to go out.
• 51:13
  What is going on? Why is that operation such a
• 51:16
  crap show? It doesn't make any sense.
• 51:18
  And you know, you do, you do, you're right.
• 51:19
  Hang up the phone and I'll never hear and and nothing will
• 51:22
  happen. But why do you say you're right?
• 51:23
  Because. He wants to end the
• 51:24
  conversation. Right.
• 51:25
  He's he's reinforcing you. Of course you're like, OK and
• 51:28
  like. I'm not being, but eventually I
• 51:31
  realize that that's not good. That's not the way to get it
• 51:33
  done. And so I call him now and I say,
• 51:35
  ABBA, I love you. I don't want to fight with you.
• 51:38
  It doesn't look good for us if we if someone buys something in
• 51:41
  two weeks later, they haven't gotten it yet.
• 51:42
  So, you know, for our sake and for our reputation and just to
• 51:46
  keep things smooth, like running smoothly, can we take care of
• 51:48
  this, please? And even though my instinct is
• 51:50
  to like jump down his throat, probably because he's my dad and
• 51:52
  you know, whatever. So now let's say with my SO with
• 51:56
  my dad right now, right, My dad's the recipient of the
• 51:59
  conversation. He can, he has his own
• 52:01
  associations. His association when being
• 52:03
  yelled at is to stop the confrontation.
• 52:06
  Best way to stop the confrontation?
• 52:07
  Is to say yeah, he has an aversive.
• 52:08
  Stimulus I don't want, exactly, and I don't want him to feel
• 52:10
  like it's adversity. I want because because I know
• 52:14
  that his response to adversity is not the response that I want.
• 52:17
  Well, you learned that correct from your consequence over time,
• 52:19
  correct? Which shapes your behaviour,
• 52:21
  correct? Which is why you change your
• 52:22
  behaviour. Right.
• 52:22
  And the more that you get to know people, right?
• 52:24
  And like, I'm sure you know this, you know, like I know the
• 52:26
  way that I, the way that I have to talk to my wife to convey an,
• 52:30
  A new idea or critique something that's going on in the house has
• 52:33
  to be extremely delicate and thought out.
• 52:37
  And the way that I did it four years ago when you first got
• 52:40
  married as opposed to today is super different, right?
• 52:43
  It's not shaping the behavior. Or understanding the OR
• 52:46
  understanding the person you're talking to to reshape your
• 52:48
  behavior. Whatever term we want to put to
• 52:50
  it, because we're not arguing here, We're agreeing.
• 52:52
  We're just using different terms.
• 52:53
  I'm saying two different perspective we're going from.
• 52:55
  I'm saying it it's being shaped by the consequence.
• 52:57
  Yeah. And you're saying, yeah, you're
• 52:59
  constantly changing it based on the shaping of the consequence.
• 53:02
  Yeah, but the same thing. So no.
• 53:03
  No, no, this is I'm just trying to.
• 53:06
  There's elaborations coming out. No, that's what I'm pointing
• 53:10
  out. Like, people could be sitting on
• 53:11
  the table, be saying the same thing, and they're sitting there
• 53:14
  arguing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 53:16
  By the way, that's so I've noticed that with, with
• 53:18
  arguments in general, it almost always comes down to just making
• 53:22
  sure that everyone agrees on the definition of all the terms that
• 53:25
  we're talking about, You know, sure, that's the biggest thing
• 53:28
  because like someone would be like, it's healthy to do this.
• 53:30
  I'm like, wait a minute, what do you think of healthy means?
• 53:35
  Right, Because I'm looking to sit here and fight with you
• 53:38
  until my face turns blue when you're like, oh, healthy just
• 53:41
  means that I'm not getting fat. I'm like, OK, well, that's not
• 53:43
  the same thing as what I'm talking about.
• 53:44
  So you could save a whole half an hour argument, you know, just
• 53:47
  by doing that. Right, Yeah.
• 53:49
  So that's basically I was just showing you how the different
• 53:52
  principles play out. Sure.
• 53:54
  Now the science is applied, There's a, a section of the
• 53:58
  science. There's, there's ABA therapy,
• 54:01
  which is autism therapy. There is school consultants that
• 54:07
  actually aren't focused on autism.
• 54:08
  Let me go back. ABA therapy in itself is not
• 54:14
  focused on autism. The reason why I get a name for
• 54:17
  autism is because back in the 1900s, someone did a ton of
• 54:23
  studies. His name was Lovas.
• 54:24
  He did a ton of studies on, you know, implementing the
• 54:29
  principles of the science with children, adult children, some
• 54:34
  adults with autism and show the validity of this, of the, of the
• 54:40
  research that was that it's very successful in shaping behavior
• 54:44
  and stuff like that. So what happened is with
• 54:48
  advocacy, there's been laws passed in all the US states that
• 54:52
  insurance, health insurance has to cover medically necessary
• 54:56
  services, includes ABA for for those diagnosed with autism
• 55:00
  right now. That's how it became known as
• 55:03
  autism therapy, because the government.
• 55:06
  Because the only because if the if someone has a a child or
• 55:11
  relative diagnosed with autism, ABA is the gold standard, which
• 55:16
  it shows and it's very effective.
• 55:18
  Obviously, not to get into the whole nitty gritty, but
• 55:21
  different different doctors so see how different doctors are
• 55:26
  provide services differently different ABA therapies yeah, I
• 55:29
  believe right are going to you know, provide services
• 55:31
  differently. I mean I.
• 55:33
  Could imagine, right? You go to 10 therapists, you're
• 55:34
  probably hearing 10 different answers.
• 55:36
  Well, it's not. It's not about the answers, it's
• 55:38
  about. Understanding approaches to the
• 55:40
  therapy. Bedside manner.
• 55:42
  Bedside manner, right? People go to the doctor like,
• 55:44
  oh, it's terrible bedside manner.
• 55:45
  We don't automatically think of that as a in the therapist
• 55:48
  because automatically we think that therapists should have that
• 55:50
  side matter, which they should not disagree with that state.
• 55:53
  So there was laws passed in, in all 50 states.
• 55:57
  I think at this point that, you know, the it's medically
• 56:02
  necessary for, for children and adults with autism to be, to
• 56:06
  have ABA therapy because they'll teach them independent skills,
• 56:08
  safety skills, communication skills, behavioral skills.
• 56:13
  And this and this is covered by insurance for most.
• 56:16
  People health insurance, health insurance by all health
• 56:18
  insurances unless they have a plan that their employer opted
• 56:21
  out of. So that's like the only way all
• 56:24
  Medicaid and all states cover it and all commercial plans are
• 56:27
  supposed to cover it. And that's how they got the name
• 56:31
  now. You can apply that ABA to
• 56:34
  students without autism, yeah. In in Florida, you know, we're
• 56:38
  in Florida right now. So, you know, let's.
• 56:40
  Go the sunshine. State.
• 56:41
  Sunshine State the weather is beautiful today.
• 56:44
  Medicaid covers for ABA therapy for ADHD as well.
• 56:50
  Don't quote me on this last I heard Massachusetts it covers it
• 56:54
  for those diagnosed. I don't know the diagnosed but
• 56:58
  this was Down syndrome really don't actually also going back
• 57:04
  to. Florida, a bit effective for
• 57:06
  Down syndrome or it's just kind of lumping Down syndrome in
• 57:08
  without? Without it's really effective.
• 57:11
  And they had to do a lot of advocacy to get it approved to
• 57:14
  cover for for Down syndrome. They had to.
• 57:18
  They had to, you know, someone had to push, someone had to,
• 57:20
  they had to show, right. So that's basically what it is,
• 57:24
  ADHD. If someone's willing, someone's
• 57:26
  willing to put, put in the hard work, then they could show that,
• 57:31
  that it's successful. Doctor Russell Barkley, who was
• 57:34
  like one of the top is known as one of the top, you know,
• 57:40
  doctors or whatever psychologist in I don't know what is that
• 57:45
  exact field was exact what a credential is, but he he's
• 57:49
  focused on ADHD. He even says with his and I'm
• 57:53
  quoting him children, adults with autism, they need children
• 57:58
  with autism. They need medicine because
• 58:02
  they're missing a chemical, whatever it is a chemical plus
• 58:05
  behavioral therapy. Behavioral therapy is ADA
• 58:08
  therapy, right? So plus behavioral therapy, so
• 58:11
  that that's coming from the ADHD things.
• 58:13
  But obviously the more research someone does and more advocacy,
• 58:17
  that's how these things happen. Like that's how insurance covers
• 58:20
  things at the end of the insurance doesn't want to cover.
• 58:22
  Yeah, you have to. You have to give them
• 58:23
  overwhelming evidence that it that it works.
• 58:25
  So for them to be willing. To give them overwhelming
• 58:27
  evidence till like I think it's really till insurance, till the
• 58:31
  states passed laws. Health insurance obviously have
• 58:35
  to comply. Yeah, they weren't going to be
• 58:37
  like, oh, I'm here, we're paying for this.
• 58:39
  Arizona is a lot more flexible with with the diagnosis for ABA
• 58:43
  therapy. It works.
• 58:45
  Yeah, there's. Certain states that are bigger
• 58:48
  for ABA right than other states are a little bit more, I guess
• 58:52
  they flexible or? Well, I think that's just
• 58:55
  advocacy and how it was written into.
• 58:59
  Into legislature. Legislate legislature coverage
• 59:03
  and into the medical plans right because I obviously have
• 59:07
  Medicaid that goes after whatever the state says they're
• 59:09
  going to cover. You know, told about 2-3 years
• 59:13
  ago if you were a board certified behavior analyst,
• 59:17
  which what I am, you could only, or you would be a licensed
• 59:21
  behavior analyst in the state of New York, which I am.
• 59:23
  You could only work with children.
• 59:25
  You could only work with those who are diagnosed with autism
• 59:27
  only only that was like the law. So that means if someone.
• 59:32
  Had ADHD or? And which you could really help
• 59:34
  them? Yeah, you can practice on.
• 59:36
  The OR it's not covered or it's not covered.
• 59:38
  No, even private really. Yeah.
• 59:41
  Wow, so advocacy. That's close, but why not?
• 59:46
  But advocacy plays out in different ways.
• 59:48
  I can. Understand if someone said to
• 59:50
  me, you know, you're a doctor and insurance company says,
• 59:53
  listen, we'll cover, you know, with the Steve Jobs case because
• 59:56
  Steve Jobs had cancer, he tried to flush it out with like all
• 59:59
  strawberry, all fruit diet, right?
• 1:00:01
  And like his doctor was like, I think that's a cool idea.
• 1:00:03
  But like, I'm not going to like write your prescription for
• 1:00:05
  strawberries, right? Like you shouldn't be not
• 1:00:09
  allowed to like say hey, go try it.
• 1:00:12
  Like if insurance isn't covering it, why is it Like why is it,
• 1:00:15
  why is it anyone's business? So New York State understood it.
• 1:00:19
  So right, there's the science of the research, then there's the
• 1:00:21
  advocacy. And New York State understood it
• 1:00:26
  that their scope of practice is autism.
• 1:00:29
  OK so remember you asked me like why are ABA therapies?
• 1:00:32
  Only but there's plenty, but there's but other states.
• 1:00:35
  Well, this is when they made this law.
• 1:00:37
  This is like, you know at this point.
• 1:00:40
  ABA was emerging, right? OK, I got you.
• 1:00:42
  It's, it's a newer science, it's a newer therapy, which is
• 1:00:46
  obviously why over time it's, it's still advancing and it's
• 1:00:50
  still adjusting, right? It went from a rigid therapy
• 1:00:54
  because it was right off the side.
• 1:00:56
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To now it evolved to.
• 1:00:59
  You can see what it what else it applies to.
• 1:01:01
  Yeah, no, but not just what else it applies to, but how you apply
• 1:01:04
  it in the therapy setting has evolved to a more care focused,
• 1:01:10
  a more patient focus because we learned that you can't just take
• 1:01:15
  a science and apply. It can't be rigid like that.
• 1:01:17
  You got to be flexible. We're dealing with with, with,
• 1:01:21
  you know, families, people, and there's all those factors that
• 1:01:25
  are not just like in the lab, right?
• 1:01:27
  In real life, in real, in real life, outside of the lab, things
• 1:01:29
  are a lot. There's a lot.
• 1:01:30
  There's a lot more going on. Different factors.
• 1:01:35
  So that's, that's the ABA therapy, you know, the people
• 1:01:39
  that are do private pay and there's people, you know.
• 1:01:43
  They cover my insurance. They take insurance rather,
• 1:01:47
  yeah. The ABA therapy, so basically
• 1:01:50
  effective with that great often times we'll be speaking to our
• 1:01:54
  parent and I'll be describing someone to ABA therapy and
• 1:01:56
  they're like wow. Like that's just like I'm like,
• 1:02:00
  OK, so we're going to come in and put in a chart and you'll
• 1:02:04
  get your kid a candy or prizes or whatever at the end of thing.
• 1:02:08
  The parents like this is ABA therapy.
• 1:02:10
  Yeah. Like what?
• 1:02:11
  Like this I could do with myself.
• 1:02:13
  Yeah. It's not supposed to be
• 1:02:14
  complicated Yeah, it's very simple This is how behavior work
• 1:02:17
  often you as a teacher, you're applying principles of behavior
• 1:02:20
  analysis into your classroom. You just obviously don't know
• 1:02:22
  what behavior analysis is. Yeah, you're not like, Oh, I'm
• 1:02:24
  consciously. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, right.
• 1:02:26
  But if I would go through all the things or I would come and
• 1:02:28
  sit in your classroom for a day, I could probably give you a
• 1:02:30
  whole list of all the principles you touched on.
• 1:02:33
  So it's. You do that one time, you should
• 1:02:35
  come by. I'd love to, but I don't.
• 1:02:38
  Know why not? You can come to the school.
• 1:02:39
  I don't want to disturb your classes dude.
• 1:02:41
  No, like disturbed, there's no way disturbing, there's no more
• 1:02:46
  disturbing that goes on. So it's.
• 1:02:49
  It's good I'm. Curious to hear what you thought
• 1:02:50
  because especially I teach 9th, 12th and 10th super
• 1:02:54
  fundamentally different ages, right?
• 1:02:59
  Just to cut you off, please, because I love doing.
• 1:03:01
  That, yeah, I do too well on the side, yeah.
• 1:03:03
  But let's say ABA therapy. So I obviously I have ABA
• 1:03:06
  therapy company. New York, New Jersey, Florida,
• 1:03:09
  whatever. I'm growing.
• 1:03:11
  We service. Thank God.
• 1:03:12
  Yeah, we service children, teenagers and adults.
• 1:03:17
  It looks very. Different.
• 1:03:18
  I believe it. But it's the same principles.
• 1:03:20
  Right. I believe that too, by the way.
• 1:03:22
  So. That that's what comes out
• 1:03:24
  there. I I hear from other therapists
• 1:03:26
  all the time. They're like what?
• 1:03:26
  You service a 26 year old. You know, we even had an adult
• 1:03:31
  reach out for service themselves.
• 1:03:32
  Not not through a parent. It it looks different, but it's
• 1:03:36
  the same. Yeah, I believe it because these
• 1:03:37
  principles work. That's the science works.
• 1:03:40
  The science is not wrong. You want to tell me how this
• 1:03:43
  company is applying the science is ineffective or or or wrong,
• 1:03:47
  then OK, But the science can't be wrong.
• 1:03:50
  Very often and very often people are applying these principles.
• 1:03:56
  They're like, ABA doesn't work, ABA doesn't work.
• 1:03:58
  I have an effective way and they're just applying the
• 1:04:00
  principles. So yeah.
• 1:04:02
  I'm curious what you think of this story and what you would
• 1:04:05
  like derive from it. But I, so I, the 12th grade
• 1:04:10
  class that I'm teaching now, my, they were my first class that I
• 1:04:13
  ever taught, right? So 9th, they were 9th graders
• 1:04:16
  for, you know, when I started teaching.
• 1:04:17
  And there's one, and there's one particular student who was
• 1:04:19
  super, super excited to be talking to or teaching again.
• 1:04:23
  And one of the reasons why is because in 9th grade, he was so
• 1:04:27
  creative and so eloquent and so good at like conjuring entire
• 1:04:34
  worlds in his head and then capturing it and writing it down
• 1:04:36
  or expressing it. Amazing, right?
• 1:04:38
  And I was so excited to teach him again.
• 1:04:39
  And yesterday I gave him a creative in the 12th graders.
• 1:04:42
  I'm not, we're not, I'm not working them too hard.
• 1:04:44
  And yesterday I gave him a assignment to do a creative
• 1:04:47
  story for 2 pages. And the student comes up to me
• 1:04:50
  and goes, what's the point in creativity?
• 1:04:52
  And like this, I couldn't believe that he said it to me,
• 1:04:56
  right? So I said, dude, I know you have
• 1:04:57
  it in you because I've seen it before.
• 1:05:00
  He goes, what are you talking about?
• 1:05:02
  And he just sat back down and, you know, talking to his friends
• 1:05:04
  and like not paying attention. And I went to my e-mail and I
• 1:05:07
  pulled up a couple of the things that stories that he wrote, the
• 1:05:10
  short stories that he wrote from 9th grade.
• 1:05:11
  And I was like, dude, come here. He came over and I showed him my
• 1:05:15
  screen and I showed him two of them.
• 1:05:18
  And he's like, who wrote this? I'm like, dude, you wrote this.
• 1:05:22
  And I was, he was like, I wrote that.
• 1:05:24
  I was like, yeah. I was like, I'm certain that
• 1:05:26
  you're creative and I'm certain that you have that.
• 1:05:28
  And he's like, and then like, like you saw some like switch in
• 1:05:31
  his head and he was like, yeah, OK, I got it.
• 1:05:34
  And then he sat down and he just.
• 1:05:35
  And he just got to it. And I was like, it was, it was,
• 1:05:39
  I mean, for a moment I was like legitimately upset, but not like
• 1:05:44
  upset, but like you're like, he's this kid was.
• 1:05:46
  He's messing with me. Not even that.
• 1:05:48
  I, I, I was sad. I, I was like this kid, like,
• 1:05:51
  and I was afraid of this happening.
• 1:05:53
  Actually, I remember when I was talking to my friends about that
• 1:05:57
  particular kid, I'm like, what I enjoyed about teaching 9th grade
• 1:05:59
  is that they're uninhibited and they're not afraid to be
• 1:06:01
  creative and to throw out crazy ideas and be wacky.
• 1:06:04
  And I was like, I wonder what that's going to be like when
• 1:06:06
  they're older. And now that I have him four
• 1:06:07
  years later and I'm like, no, he like, he, like, he lost it.
• 1:06:12
  But like, he didn't, you know, he just, he didn't, he didn't
• 1:06:14
  exercise that muscle at all for, for, for three years or for 2
• 1:06:17
  1/2 years. So obviously my mind's like, you
• 1:06:21
  know. Yeah.
• 1:06:21
  What do you think about this I? Don't want to go down this
• 1:06:24
  rabbit hole, but the system and I don't want to go down this
• 1:06:29
  rabbit hole. I've thought about it tons of
• 1:06:31
  times. The system we have today school
• 1:06:34
  wise doesn't promote creativity. I'm not that.
• 1:06:37
  Yeah, All right. Now people are like, oh, so the
• 1:06:41
  school I have, I've actually put some thought to it.
• 1:06:44
  Now, I'm not going to say I'm like a genius and like, if I
• 1:06:47
  can't come up through the reason, yeah, I sure that
• 1:06:49
  there's some type of solution. But I haven't come up with with
• 1:06:55
  a way that we could have a school system that encourages
• 1:06:58
  creativity, that encourages, not encourages creativity, but that
• 1:07:01
  could be flexible in terms of whether it's creativity or
• 1:07:05
  whether it's, you know, being, you know, smaller classes,
• 1:07:10
  designing it and stuff like that.
• 1:07:11
  Sure. Just stuff like that.
• 1:07:13
  So if a child is being punished, so to speak, for his creativity,
• 1:07:17
  yeah, that's that's that's. I've seen it like myself, you
• 1:07:22
  know. It's a really hard line.
• 1:07:24
  It's a very slippery slope because what's being what's the
• 1:07:26
  difference between silly or not trying and being creative for a
• 1:07:28
  lot of a lot of times? When you're a teacher.
• 1:07:31
  So I have that teacher experience, but I also have that
• 1:07:33
  like a child, ADHD being put on meds, not getting behavioral
• 1:07:37
  therapy and like, see my brother, who also clearly had
• 1:07:40
  ADHD, getting sent from school to school to school.
• 1:07:43
  Yeah. And what that does to a kid who.
• 1:07:45
  Oh yeah. Self esteem.
• 1:07:46
  Oh, yeah. And it's.
• 1:07:47
  And it's not them. It's not.
• 1:07:49
  No, definitely not. It's not no.
• 1:07:51
  Not everyone is supposed to be a square.
• 1:07:53
  Not everyone is a square. But we're taking, we are taking
• 1:07:55
  25 to 30 kids and putting them in a room and saying.
• 1:07:58
  To shit show. Excuse my language.
• 1:08:00
  Yeah, it really is. Yeah, I guess we are going down
• 1:08:02
  this rabbit, but like, how are you going to have, how are you
• 1:08:04
  going to have 25 to 30 kids? Even 15, even 15 is hard.
• 1:08:09
  Even 1520, yeah, agreeing with that.
• 1:08:12
  How are you going to have classroom that's not chaotic but
• 1:08:16
  also proves creativity? Yeah.
• 1:08:19
  So what ends up happening is you have to come in, sit in your
• 1:08:21
  seat, you have one kid yelling that could destroy a whole.
• 1:08:24
  Class Yes. Yes.
• 1:08:28
  Who's that fault? I don't know.
• 1:08:30
  But you can't blame it on the teacher because they have 1520
• 1:08:32
  kids in there, right? You can't.
• 1:08:34
  Blame it on the kid because they're stuck by the desk for
• 1:08:36
  10. Hours.
• 1:08:36
  Can't blame it on the kid because forget A50, you know,
• 1:08:39
  forget everyone. That's cool.
• 1:08:41
  By the time they get to school, they've had a whole day.
• 1:08:43
  Yeah. Waited for the bus.
• 1:08:44
  Missed the bus? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:08:45
  Yeah. Woke up by the parents.
• 1:08:46
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:08:47
  All these things. Yeah.
• 1:08:48
  Who? But they had a long day and
• 1:08:50
  they're. They're sitting there.
• 1:08:51
  Yeah. And then there's also the point
• 1:08:54
  of people have to work. So like the homeschool model,
• 1:08:59
  you know? Doesn't always work.
• 1:09:00
  Right. It's not so practical for a lot
• 1:09:02
  of people. Yeah, you.
• 1:09:04
  Have a fan of homeschool? Just vaguely or as vague as
• 1:09:07
  possible. It's very hard because I'm a fan
• 1:09:10
  of a lot of stuff, but you could be a fan of something that could
• 1:09:13
  be totally taken out of context, right?
• 1:09:14
  You know what I mean? Yeah.
• 1:09:15
  So for the right people, you know, if a parent's overwhelm
• 1:09:19
  them, homeschooling the kid might do more, more damage.
• 1:09:23
  If you're talking about. And I've seen some homeschool
• 1:09:25
  situations like this where a group of local parents chip in
• 1:09:29
  for for a teacher. The teacher has six kids, seven
• 1:09:33
  kids in in their group. Yeah, they're outside.
• 1:09:37
  It's like more home based. So it's not in the classroom, so
• 1:09:39
  to speak. They're outside learning math.
• 1:09:42
  Then they just go inside. They have their lunch that I'm a
• 1:09:45
  fan. They have their social.
• 1:09:47
  Yeah. It's.
• 1:09:47
  Structure but loose structure structure.
• 1:09:51
  No, it doesn't have to be loose structure.
• 1:09:53
  It could say we're going outside now, we're giving you, we're
• 1:09:56
  having recess. Fun.
• 1:09:56
  But what you do outside, meaning that that's loose, yeah.
• 1:10:00
  Yeah, it could be a looser schedule, right?
• 1:10:02
  But to say loose structure, I'm not a fan of structure.
• 1:10:04
  And boundaries are very important.
• 1:10:06
  The kids. Children thrive on structure.
• 1:10:09
  And you see it in adults also. If they have structure, kids are
• 1:10:12
  going to push back on structure. They're always going to put
• 1:10:14
  track on structure, but they're going to thrive off that
• 1:10:16
  structure, right? So the answer is not no
• 1:10:18
  structure. The answer is structuring it in
• 1:10:21
  a flexible way. Yes, fine.
• 1:10:23
  Great way to put it. OK, Yeah.
• 1:10:24
  Excellent way to. Put it so.
• 1:10:25
  You could have a. Hitting your podcast rhythm over
• 1:10:28
  here. There you go.
• 1:10:29
  It's great. They're getting.
• 1:10:32
  Smooth. Now you're getting in the zone.
• 1:10:34
  You could, you could have a younger classroom that's doing
• 1:10:38
  big blocks of time. We're doing 11:50.
• 1:10:41
  We're doing one activity and this is the structure.
• 1:10:42
  No, everyone has to color it down, right?
• 1:10:44
  That's too long. But you can have a different
• 1:10:46
  class that's doing 15 minute increments of a structured
• 1:10:49
  activity. Yes, yes, that's catering to the
• 1:10:52
  kids. Yeah.
• 1:10:52
  And stuff like that. Yeah, bringing out the strong
• 1:10:54
  points and stuff like that. So the answer's no.
• 1:10:58
  The answer's no. Home school isn't the answer.
• 1:11:01
  And because how you do at home school is a big fact.
• 1:11:04
  Yes, for sure. Kids go to school for social.
• 1:11:07
  Yeah. And I see this because we, we
• 1:11:10
  you know, in, in some, in some of the places we work, we're
• 1:11:14
  dealing with a lot of middle school students now, 6th, 7th,
• 1:11:16
  8th graders that are following up the system.
• 1:11:18
  They're not bad kids. They're not hitting the teacher.
• 1:11:20
  They're not being anyone. They are following out of the
• 1:11:22
  system. Yeah, because they don't have
• 1:11:24
  that drive to go to school. They don't have that motivation.
• 1:11:27
  Why would they? Well, what if you?
• 1:11:29
  Had presented well, they would be.
• 1:11:31
  Well, no, the actual education, who wants to learn unless
• 1:11:34
  there's something that they're learning their interests though,
• 1:11:37
  OK, sure. So that's one thing that can be
• 1:11:40
  motivating for a kid to go to school.
• 1:11:41
  What's the second thing? Social.
• 1:11:44
  If they have friends, if they're struggling socially, they may
• 1:11:48
  not want to go to school. They're not a bad kid, They just
• 1:11:50
  need those skills. Sure.
• 1:11:53
  That's my therapist side. They're like, but they just need
• 1:11:55
  those skills and taught them in a compassionate way, in a slow
• 1:11:58
  way. And there's great books out
• 1:12:00
  there for parents. There's a great book out there
• 1:12:02
  called Growing Friendships and it's social skills books and
• 1:12:05
  it's made for elementary kids and it's written in a very
• 1:12:09
  elementary school friendly way. What's it called?
• 1:12:13
  Growing Friendships by Doctor Kennedy and Moore.
• 1:12:16
  OK, extremely big fan of that and there's resources out there,
• 1:12:23
  but obviously I I think the nice that yeah, really schools don't
• 1:12:27
  do enough for teaching social skills.
• 1:12:30
  If someone wants a business idea, what's the this?
• 1:12:32
  If someone wants a business idea, create a create and
• 1:12:35
  implement a social skills program.
• 1:12:37
  And there are out there, but I don't think it's it's being
• 1:12:40
  mainstream for primary, first grade, for pre like
• 1:12:44
  kindergarten, everyone calls it, some people call it pre on a
• 1:12:46
  some people call it primary, some people call it
• 1:12:48
  kindergarten, kindergarten, first grade.
• 1:12:50
  Teach us this core social skills then.
• 1:12:52
  Which what are what are social skills that are important to
• 1:12:54
  emphasize there agreeability or sharing?
• 1:12:57
  Agreeability is not a social skill agreeing with someone.
• 1:13:00
  No, what you mean ability? No ability to work with people.
• 1:13:04
  Yeah, that's a social skill, listening.
• 1:13:06
  Listening is a huge one. Wait.
• 1:13:09
  And I think, I think I don't want to be that person, like,
• 1:13:12
  oh, people nowadays, whatever, they're terrible.
• 1:13:15
  But there's something to say that if adults aren't, you know,
• 1:13:19
  where, where kids learning social skills now from their
• 1:13:21
  from their parents. So often times you'll see a
• 1:13:25
  parent can't listen to another person's opinion and it's my way
• 1:13:28
  or the highway. The kid will have the same way.
• 1:13:30
  Yeah, because they're learning it that way.
• 1:13:31
  Yeah. But if we're coming in as a
• 1:13:33
  school and filling the need that we're supposed to be teaching
• 1:13:35
  that social skill. And don't get me wrong, even as
• 1:13:38
  a high school teacher, you could be teaching high school skills.
• 1:13:41
  I I emphasize. It very strongly it it looks a
• 1:13:43
  little bit different than teachers that can get our
• 1:13:45
  primary where they got our first grade where where they're the
• 1:13:48
  perfect candidate for it. But but it has to be taught.
• 1:13:56
  Yeah. Right.
• 1:13:57
  And and if they're going to learn from their parents that
• 1:13:59
  aren't listening to other people's with different
• 1:14:01
  opinions, that's also harder. Yeah.
• 1:14:04
  Another big social skill. And this is the I think one of
• 1:14:07
  the most important ones. Finding common grounds.
• 1:14:10
  Yes. OK, Dale Carnegie speaks in his
• 1:14:12
  book that's called Quote UN quote, Social Skills for Adults.
• 1:14:16
  And if you think about it, who did you hang out with when you
• 1:14:18
  were kids? Whatever you had most in common
• 1:14:21
  with. Yeah, it could be.
• 1:14:22
  You had one friend group that talked about sports and another
• 1:14:24
  friend group that talked about cars.
• 1:14:27
  It's actually the answer to tribal, tribal behavior, right?
• 1:14:29
  Because tribal behavior is noticing what's different about
• 1:14:31
  us, you know, tribal conflict, I guess, right?
• 1:14:34
  I had a friend, I had friends that come, that came to visit
• 1:14:36
  the community. I had like, I jumped around
• 1:14:39
  different like religious level type communities throughout my
• 1:14:41
  life. So I had a more modern Orthodox,
• 1:14:46
  you know, phase, I guess that what you'd call it or, or a
• 1:14:49
  point of my life where I'd hung hang out.
• 1:14:50
  I was more in that world. And they came to visit the
• 1:14:53
  community one time and they came to show and they saw all these
• 1:14:57
  guys wearing black hats and white shirts.
• 1:14:59
  And they're like, oh, we have nothing in common with these
• 1:15:00
  people and like, we're not going to talk to them.
• 1:15:02
  I kiddush. I'm like, what are you talking
• 1:15:05
  about? I'm like, dude, you guys have
• 1:15:06
  wives, you guys have kids. You guys are trying to put food
• 1:15:09
  on the table. You guys have jobs that either
• 1:15:10
  you like or don't like. You certainly had like these are
• 1:15:14
  a group of there's 3030 year olds in this room that all are
• 1:15:17
  in the same place in life as you are.
• 1:15:19
  Just because they're wearing a different hat than you doesn't
• 1:15:22
  mean that you guys have nothing in common.
• 1:15:23
  And I just want to point out this is not specific to any
• 1:15:26
  minor, orthodox or no. No, no, no, no, no, no.
• 1:15:27
  This is what people do. This is what people as a human
• 1:15:29
  beings do. People do it in.
• 1:15:31
  In everyday life, yeah, they in the room and.
• 1:15:33
  And before even speaking to them, they're like.
• 1:15:36
  Yeah. Yeah, but I'm in the business
• 1:15:40
  world. I can see someone, a mono
• 1:15:41
  orthodox person and then ultra orthodox person.
• 1:15:44
  And they have a, they're working together because they they took
• 1:15:47
  the time to speak to each other and they.
• 1:15:48
  Have a lot of common. A lot of common.
• 1:15:50
  And believe it or not, we all have a lot of common for sure,
• 1:15:54
  whether if I have an interest in something and you hate that,
• 1:15:57
  that's a common thing, Yeah. And we can discuss that and and
• 1:16:01
  depending on how I. Don't know how, it's how it's
• 1:16:04
  presented. How it's presented, yeah.
• 1:16:05
  It's not like me against you. It's more like conversation, the
• 1:16:08
  exchanging. Of ideas as opposed to trying to
• 1:16:10
  see who's right. Yeah.
• 1:16:12
  So, yeah, very often we do that and that's an important social
• 1:16:16
  skill. I think people don't realize it,
• 1:16:20
  but these are all different social skills that I don't think
• 1:16:24
  kids are taught. And if a kid is not socially
• 1:16:26
  driven to school, why would they go to school?
• 1:16:28
  Tell me what's the reason why your kid?
• 1:16:30
  The reason why I hated high school the first two years
• 1:16:32
  because I didn't I didn't like the kids that were there.
• 1:16:35
  It was but. How would you go?
• 1:16:37
  I didn't. I didn't want to.
• 1:16:38
  Right to learn. Well I was doing badly in school
• 1:16:40
  too so I thought that I wasn't learning or getting friends and
• 1:16:42
  I was like but over 2. For most kids, every kid's
• 1:16:46
  different. Now, some kids will enjoy that
• 1:16:48
  intellectual conversation and some kids will first say, I have
• 1:16:51
  the greatest science teacher. I'm going to school for my
• 1:16:54
  science teacher, forget about friends.
• 1:16:55
  But for what I often see is like, kids are not academic
• 1:17:00
  driven, right? We're putting them in this box.
• 1:17:03
  And then they may be missing social skills and struggling
• 1:17:05
  socially and that's it. They're like, I can't go to
• 1:17:09
  school. I'm not going to go to school.
• 1:17:12
  And it's not so much of the parents forcing them to school
• 1:17:15
  because there's two parts. Yes, the parents should have a
• 1:17:17
  balance. Your best you'll have to go to
• 1:17:19
  school if there's a structure. I'm a big fan of kids taking
• 1:17:21
  off. Yeah, me too.
• 1:17:23
  But kids taking off plants off days.
• 1:17:24
  Yeah, mental health days. My plan you.
• 1:17:28
  Know this is something I discussed with my wife before
• 1:17:30
  before we got married it's like a kid says like wow you know
• 1:17:34
  kids struggling yeah you want to take off Thursday you take off
• 1:17:37
  Thursday yeah no waking up Monday morning and say I'm
• 1:17:39
  thinking of studying that's not resilience that's not teaching
• 1:17:42
  them resilience you want to wake up Monday and it's a hard day
• 1:17:45
  that's interesting you're going to push through that's really
• 1:17:47
  interesting that's just my. That's a great way.
• 1:17:49
  That's a great way to put it, because once you're already
• 1:17:52
  committed to the day, you got to be committed.
• 1:17:53
  To the day it's pushing through. Why are people not so resilient
• 1:17:56
  nowadays? And I don't know, I'm not saying
• 1:17:59
  this as like a yeah, you see it, People aren't pushing through.
• 1:18:03
  It because you have a lot of convenience and so there's a lot
• 1:18:05
  of roundabout ways to get what you want without having to work
• 1:18:07
  hard. I think it's also that people
• 1:18:09
  are taught that they don't have to be resilient.
• 1:18:11
  You have a hard test. OK Let me ask the teacher if we
• 1:18:14
  could take it a different day. You know, you're having a hard
• 1:18:18
  day. OK Science, you stay home today.
• 1:18:20
  No, a planned off day. I'm a big fan of planned off
• 1:18:23
  days. But it's a really interesting
• 1:18:24
  idea, I never heard of it presented like that.
• 1:18:27
  But waking up in the moment sick is totally different.
• 1:18:31
  Even when you're working on skills, you know someone being
• 1:18:33
  sick. Yeah.
• 1:18:34
  What are you going? To do is it's not something you
• 1:18:36
  know now if it becomes a common thing and it becomes it's like a
• 1:18:39
  fake thing, OK, that's a different story.
• 1:18:41
  Planned off days is a way you push through that hardship and
• 1:18:45
  that builds builds resilience. But giving that them the off
• 1:18:48
  day, giving them that, I feel like I went on a little bit.
• 1:18:51
  Of a no, no, we're, we're, we're, we're flowing.
• 1:18:53
  But I I don't remember how we got.
• 1:18:55
  Here you got here because of my classroom, because that's not my
• 1:18:57
  student, remember, and a student that I thought was creative that
• 1:18:59
  is creative that. Is creative, but they're not.
• 1:19:01
  And we said we learned something along the way in those two years
• 1:19:04
  between him having me as a freshman and him having me as a
• 1:19:06
  senior, where he felt like, what's the point of creativity?
• 1:19:09
  And he hasn't exercised that muscle, even though it was so
• 1:19:11
  potent at such a young age. Going back to that also, you're
• 1:19:15
  a unique teacher. Yeah, I think so.
• 1:19:17
  I've never been in your classroom just from hearing used
• 1:19:19
  to be just from hearing a bat in your classroom.
• 1:19:22
  I think the way you run a classroom is unique.
• 1:19:25
  Now that being thing, your class may have promoted creativity.
• 1:19:30
  So 9th grade is you're you're promoting creativity with them.
• 1:19:34
  Other teachers along the way didn't promote that creativity.
• 1:19:37
  And he's like, I have to hide this.
• 1:19:39
  Yeah, I have to hide it so I could.
• 1:19:40
  Say that's sad to me. It is sad.
• 1:19:42
  It's very sad to me. But as parents, we got to be, we
• 1:19:45
  got to, we got to, you know, each kid is unique.
• 1:19:49
  I, I see it with my, my 2 girls, like one has a strong
• 1:19:52
  personality and, and I was discussing another.
• 1:19:55
  We have to learn. And I, I'm like, I'm like, oh,
• 1:19:58
  I'm a therapist. So like, you know, or I'm a, you
• 1:20:01
  know, I have this knowledge or no, we have to learn how to
• 1:20:05
  build her personality, not make excuses for it.
• 1:20:09
  Yeah. Right.
• 1:20:10
  Well, she's not going to, I don't, I'm not going to looking
• 1:20:11
  to give her off because she has a personality.
• 1:20:13
  I'm looking to invest and promote her to to to thrive on
• 1:20:18
  her personality. You know, obviously have the
• 1:20:23
  have the good parts of the personality really shine and the
• 1:20:26
  parts that come along with it, you know, minimize it and learn
• 1:20:29
  how to navigate it. And my other daughter is not
• 1:20:33
  such a strong personality. She's a happy go lucky.
• 1:20:35
  Yeah, it's a it's, it's, it's a different parenting style.
• 1:20:39
  Yeah. It's not the same one box.
• 1:20:40
  It's all. So there's also, you know, we
• 1:20:42
  could blame it on schools all we want, but there's a home piece
• 1:20:44
  also that huge that people people have to realize that it's
• 1:20:48
  on you. Too, You can't hand on You can't
• 1:20:49
  hand on the responsibility of parenthood to a teacher.
• 1:20:53
  There's so there's a whole structure.
• 1:20:55
  Like I said before, parents, not parents like children thrive on
• 1:21:00
  structure. So you want to say that
• 1:21:02
  homeschool thing very often and I'm I hate to be this
• 1:21:06
  characteristic person like sit like character categorized, but
• 1:21:10
  I find I find that homeschool people are more lenient when it
• 1:21:14
  comes to boundaries and structure.
• 1:21:18
  Then it takes away from what the kid thrives on.
• 1:21:20
  We were talking about before. So I'm also a sleep sleep
• 1:21:24
  specialist, like a certified sleep specialist.
• 1:21:25
  That's cool. So yeah, it's a whole another
• 1:21:28
  like angle and sleep and understanding how sleep works.
• 1:21:30
  But a lot of it is structure, setting up that routine,
• 1:21:33
  bedtime, that routine for that child.
• 1:21:36
  And that's the hardest of the parents because they're like, I
• 1:21:39
  have to put my kid to bed at 6:00.
• 1:21:41
  I want to go out with friends, whatever.
• 1:21:43
  But having that routine is that structure that the kids thrive
• 1:21:45
  on, right? The kid has a faulty stimulus
• 1:21:48
  that when it gets dark, I can go to sleep.
• 1:21:51
  And I went to go to sleep early. And then some of them go to
• 1:21:53
  sleep late. But if you're focused on that,
• 1:21:55
  like this is the routine. Shower, snack, brush your teeth.
• 1:22:00
  Yeah, read a book, read a book in bed or read a book and then
• 1:22:04
  bed, then that that's going to teach them like, oh, I do these
• 1:22:07
  steps. I'm going to get sleepy
• 1:22:09
  automatically. Yeah.
• 1:22:10
  And the more and I've seen it it.
• 1:22:12
  Usually requires patience, by the way, I've noticed because
• 1:22:15
  like even times like let's say like with shoe, I got my son,
• 1:22:18
  you know, there'll be times where he's not tired at a
• 1:22:20
  certain point and like we try to like force him into bed and he's
• 1:22:23
  just not like you could tell you're just not ready to go to
• 1:22:25
  bed yet. And so I'll have to read another
• 1:22:27
  book and even though it's not what I really want to do or
• 1:22:30
  like, you know, like what I'm think I'm like I, I have other
• 1:22:33
  things I have to be doing now. But being patients, reading that
• 1:22:36
  book again, reading another book with him if he's not ready to go
• 1:22:39
  to sleep yet is just continuing that like calming environment
• 1:22:44
  trajectory that he needs to get get settled in for bed.
• 1:22:47
  Structure doesn't mean that you can't be flexible.
• 1:22:50
  That's what I think people people have a hard time with
• 1:22:52
  that balance. So what?
• 1:22:54
  So let's define structure and flexibility then, so that people
• 1:22:57
  understand what the difference would.
• 1:22:59
  Be I don't think I'm going to ask you for your help on this
• 1:23:01
  one, OK? But I would say structure is
• 1:23:03
  let's say having let's say let's you're talking the bedtime
• 1:23:06
  routine. So I talk about bedtime routine
• 1:23:07
  that structure, OK? We're going to be flexible.
• 1:23:10
  It's going to start between 5:45 and 6:15.
• 1:23:13
  OK, right. So we're going to be a little
• 1:23:15
  flexible like that. Or it's going to usually start
• 1:23:17
  for I-45, but the kid took a nap during the day, so we're going
• 1:23:20
  to have to start it later. The kids not tired, clearly.
• 1:23:23
  So we're going to start. It be flexible with when the
• 1:23:25
  structure occurs, but you still need that structure within that,
• 1:23:29
  right? So it's it's.
• 1:23:31
  That's a good way of putting it. And that's keeping the structure
• 1:23:34
  but not throwing it out the window.
• 1:23:36
  That's really cool. And that Would you say it's
• 1:23:38
  hard? I'm a parent and kudos to my
• 1:23:41
  wife. She puts in a lot of the hard
• 1:23:42
  work and, you know, every day and like, a lot of it falls on
• 1:23:46
  her. Yeah.
• 1:23:47
  And she's, you know, very, very onto the sleep schedule.
• 1:23:51
  Probably more, you know, Mm hmm. Not, not rigid, but more on top
• 1:23:55
  of it than me. Yeah.
• 1:23:57
  And it's hard. You know, it's like, especially
• 1:24:00
  when when the baby, when the girls were younger, it's like,
• 1:24:03
  OK, no, we can't go out. No, we can't go to the party or
• 1:24:06
  we can't go to a test unless we have it's all set up.
• 1:24:09
  Or we could go only go after the Yeah at.
• 1:24:11
  This point. So it takes a sacrifice, but I,
• 1:24:15
  I think I don't, I don't know of anyone that would say that
• 1:24:18
  parenting is not a successful parenting doesn't take a
• 1:24:21
  sacrifice. It takes constant sacrifice.
• 1:24:24
  But that's part of, you know. What it is?
• 1:24:27
  The the pride and what you're building.
• 1:24:31
  But when you when you see it. And you and you grow if you're
• 1:24:34
  not because a lot of times you're not forced to be where
• 1:24:37
  our brains are evolving as as we take on different
• 1:24:39
  responsibilities. Well, I think also the hard part
• 1:24:43
  about about parenting is changing our behaviors, right?
• 1:24:47
  Yeah, you know, I still walk out of the house sometimes with my
• 1:24:50
  six month old daughter without a diaper and I can't believe I
• 1:24:52
  love that. I I I left it for an hour and a
• 1:24:55
  half and like, I'm assuming she's not going to go to the
• 1:24:57
  bathroom. It's so stupid of me but.
• 1:25:00
  I can say I'm guilty of that as well.
• 1:25:02
  It's it's also like I have two girls.
• 1:25:06
  So I don't know if you see the, you know, the difference.
• 1:25:09
  Oh yeah. And she was since since my
• 1:25:12
  daughter was born, you can see the.
• 1:25:13
  Difference as like I have a 2 year old, a four year old and
• 1:25:18
  and they're so different. That makes me say like I can't
• 1:25:21
  do the regular way I'm doing for one for the other.
• 1:25:23
  That's a conscious thing. That's more effort.
• 1:25:24
  That's me changing myself, that's me working myself and
• 1:25:27
  ultimately I'm I'm a better. Person as dimensions to who you
• 1:25:29
  are for sure. In depth.
• 1:25:31
  Excuse me? Yeah.
• 1:25:33
  So it's, I think that's that that structure, the flexible
• 1:25:36
  flexibility within the structure is important, but structure is
• 1:25:40
  important, you know. And customize structure
• 1:25:43
  depending on who you're dealing with.
• 1:25:44
  Yeah, it's also, it's one of those things where where
• 1:25:47
  sometimes I know we learned from the science to like now talking
• 1:25:50
  about like application, but parents will often like
• 1:25:55
  threaten, so to speak, but not follow through.
• 1:25:59
  And one of my mentors told me this.
• 1:26:01
  And then obviously once I went into to the science and the
• 1:26:04
  therapy and became certified, I'm like this.
• 1:26:06
  I learned this. Yeah, you don't say no often,
• 1:26:09
  but when you say no, you got to keep it.
• 1:26:10
  Yeah. So me and my wife, like if we by
• 1:26:15
  mistake say a threat and we know it's going to be hard to keep
• 1:26:18
  it, we both look at each other and we're like, now we have to
• 1:26:20
  keep it. Like if we say if you don't, you
• 1:26:23
  know, do this, then we're going to have to leave the party.
• 1:26:26
  We just hurt ourselves. Now we have to leave the party.
• 1:26:30
  So we we refrain from saying that unless it's a serious thing
• 1:26:33
  that that that's really interesting that that should we
• 1:26:36
  should be leaving the party for. I just gave that example.
• 1:26:39
  But it goes in any area, right? Don't tell your kid no.
• 1:26:43
  They can't have a candy if you're going to end up giving
• 1:26:45
  them the candy when they want it.
• 1:26:49
  Now, you could say no. And if you regret it, you would
• 1:26:53
  say the answer's still no. But if you would like to earn
• 1:26:55
  it, here's a way. Yeah.
• 1:26:56
  So now you didn't throw out your no.
• 1:26:59
  You change the game. You change the game and you're
• 1:27:01
  giving them an option to get what they want.
• 1:27:04
  So that's always a way that people could be flexible when
• 1:27:07
  they were originally not flexible and that also.
• 1:27:09
  Teaches it also teaches the process of having to invest
• 1:27:13
  effort into getting a reward. Which is extremely important.
• 1:27:16
  And I think people often will say about ABA therapy like it's
• 1:27:21
  bribery. It's not bribery.
• 1:27:24
  You go to work. How would it be considered
• 1:27:25
  bribery? Why?
• 1:27:26
  Because I don't know anything about ABA.
• 1:27:28
  So let's just say I, you know, we wanted to work on something
• 1:27:32
  with my, my Lily, you know, and I said, if you do this, I'm
• 1:27:38
  going to give you a can, right? Some people will say, oh, that's
• 1:27:42
  bribery, right? Yeah.
• 1:27:44
  But I'm like, no, I'm reinforcing them.
• 1:27:47
  And also everything's kind of a bribery, like where do we live
• 1:27:50
  As for money? But that's not bribery.
• 1:27:53
  Well, it is because I can't. I can't.
• 1:27:57
  Well, sure, you know, and then and obviously there's more
• 1:28:01
  dynamics, power dynamics in play, you know, between like
• 1:28:04
  let's say an employer or an employee or you know, someone
• 1:28:07
  that like is depending on someone's paycheck or not.
• 1:28:10
  Life works with being with behavior and reinforcement and
• 1:28:14
  obviously might not be as rigid as I said in the beginning or
• 1:28:18
  like in line as I said in the beginning, but it may be going
• 1:28:21
  to work and then getting that reinforcement after two weeks or
• 1:28:23
  4 weeks whenever the paid time is So what you're teaching a
• 1:28:26
  kid. Like is that is that?
• 1:28:29
  Yeah. And then slowly, you know, a
• 1:28:31
  goal and in the therapy, which is often done and in the in the
• 1:28:34
  research it's often done, is we spread that time from the
• 1:28:37
  behaviour to the reward or reinforcement.
• 1:28:41
  Spread it, you spread it, spread it.
• 1:28:42
  The ultimate goal is that they should be able to wait.
• 1:28:44
  Why? That's what real life's about.
• 1:28:47
  Now what I what my opinion and I think I got this from Doctor
• 1:28:50
  Amanda Kelly who she goes by Behaviour Babe.
• 1:28:53
  She behaviour babe, yeah. She has a great podcast.
• 1:28:55
  Good stuff. What's the difference between
• 1:28:58
  reinforcement and bribery? You want to give a shout at it?
• 1:29:03
  Bribery would be something would be an action that, I'm sorry,
• 1:29:09
  bribery. Bribery would be something that
• 1:29:11
  the person doesn't feel any value about their action.
• 1:29:14
  They're neutral about the action.
• 1:29:18
  They just want the end consequence.
• 1:29:20
  And then reinforcement would be that the process is important.
• 1:29:25
  It's it's emphasizing the value of the process and the positive
• 1:29:29
  consequences as a result of it. So what she says.
• 1:29:32
  And I'm going to, yeah, I'm going to give like a a little
• 1:29:35
  rebuttal. Not not to.
• 1:29:36
  Sure. Yeah, of course.
• 1:29:37
  I I that's just a guess I have. No, I, I like, I like, I like
• 1:29:39
  what you're saying because I think that.
• 1:29:41
  Like bribing someone to do something they don't give, they
• 1:29:42
  don't care about. And so like, they're like, Oh
• 1:29:44
  yeah, I'll just do this because like, I'm getting something out
• 1:29:46
  of it. But if you teach someone that
• 1:29:47
  running is good for you, it'd be like the process of running is
• 1:29:50
  actually healthy and to get a consequence that I like.
• 1:29:52
  You could reinforce someone for the same thing, yeah.
• 1:29:54
  OK, so what's the? Difference.
• 1:29:55
  I think Behavior Wave says it like, you know, Doctor Amanda
• 1:29:58
  Kelly says it right. She says it's about when you
• 1:30:01
  offer the reward, sort of. When you offer the reward.
• 1:30:04
  If you're like, hey, fine, can you bring this inside?
• 1:30:08
  And you're like, no, he said. If you bring it inside, I'll
• 1:30:10
  give you a candy. I just brought you when I come
• 1:30:13
  to you, fine, if you bring this inside, I'll give you a candy.
• 1:30:16
  See the difference? Yeah, yeah.
• 1:30:21
  So that here, do this, if you do this, I'm going to get you're
• 1:30:25
  going to get this. That's like setting up the
• 1:30:27
  reinforcement. But if I'm going to say
• 1:30:29
  something and then you're going to say no and I'm going to say
• 1:30:33
  if you do it, then you're going to get this.
• 1:30:35
  That's bribery. Now, if I say if I am bring this
• 1:30:39
  in and you say sure, I can still give you that, that consequence
• 1:30:44
  of reinforcement after and say, hey, great job.
• 1:30:46
  Yeah. And that's still reinforcement
• 1:30:47
  because it, yeah, it'll increase your likelihood when I asked you
• 1:30:50
  to do something to do it again. There's actually a book called
• 1:30:53
  Don't Shoot the Dog. OK, A.
• 1:30:55
  Lot of action. Yeah, I do.
• 1:30:56
  These iguanas are super busy. There's a book called Don't
• 1:31:02
  Shoot the Dog and it focuses just on constant on
• 1:31:06
  reinforcement, shaping behavior by using reinforcement, not
• 1:31:10
  punishment. I highly recommend the book,
• 1:31:14
  recommend it for parents, recommend it for anyone.
• 1:31:17
  It's really cool. The book is a little bit more
• 1:31:19
  focused on training. The idea is the person was an
• 1:31:23
  adult trainer don't shoot the dog.
• 1:31:24
  But in it, the concepts are very much applied.
• 1:31:28
  There's a story how you know a woman was married to someone
• 1:31:32
  that was displaying abusive behavior.
• 1:31:35
  Now if someone's in an abusive relationship, get the get the
• 1:31:37
  help you need. Like this is not the this is not
• 1:31:40
  the answer, but something that he would say nasty comments.
• 1:31:44
  And I think even like the father-in-law also lived there
• 1:31:46
  and we're also and she's so and she slowly shaped their behavior
• 1:31:53
  by reinforcing them for when they said good things and like
• 1:31:57
  basically ignoring when they they didn't say the nice things.
• 1:32:02
  And over time, they became they. They stopped.
• 1:32:05
  Really. They stopped displaying music
• 1:32:07
  behavior. For those nasty comments and
• 1:32:09
  stuff like that. Based.
• 1:32:10
  Wow. It's, it's the these principles.
• 1:32:13
  It's. Got to be a tough cookie though.
• 1:32:13
  To be able to to put that for long enough, you got to be.
• 1:32:16
  Consistent. Yeah.
• 1:32:17
  I don't know if saying this is the answer.
• 1:32:18
  If someone's in a recent relationship, get the help you
• 1:32:20
  need and there's help out there. You're able to shape behavior.
• 1:32:26
  These principles work. That's right.
• 1:32:28
  Nobody can tell me it doesn't work.
• 1:32:29
  Yeah, I've seen it work. And and there's a whole, you
• 1:32:32
  know, going back to ABA therapy. There's also another section
• 1:32:34
  called Organizational Behavioral Management.
• 1:32:36
  They have their own journal now, but the same science just
• 1:32:39
  applied in businesses. If you want to make, if someone
• 1:32:43
  has a business and they want their employees to be more, more
• 1:32:46
  effective, profitable, not the employees to be more profitable,
• 1:32:49
  but more, you know, they want to do the job better and, or
• 1:32:51
  happier and stuff like that. They'll come in, they'll survey
• 1:32:55
  the situation and use the same principles, apply it there and,
• 1:32:58
  and see their success. So there's there's that, there's
• 1:33:05
  that part that that behavior could be shaped.
• 1:33:09
  I know we went from from the bribery reinforcement thing, but
• 1:33:12
  I think we closed off the bribery reinforcement place and
• 1:33:15
  going off that reinforcement piece, it's very effective in
• 1:33:18
  shaping behavior. What, what if you present it
• 1:33:21
  properly, it could shape behavior over time.
• 1:33:23
  There's don't shoot the dog do. You think it helps to explain
• 1:33:27
  what you're doing either during or after so that they could so
• 1:33:30
  they understand it for themselves.
• 1:33:32
  Like it doesn't give it away to like.
• 1:33:33
  Like it doesn't ruin the magic to see how the trick is to see
• 1:33:36
  how they do the trick. Give me an example what you're
• 1:33:38
  saying because it's that's a very it.
• 1:33:40
  Like I told myself, I'll tell my students for like again
• 1:33:42
  yesterday with the case of the kid that cursed yesterday,
• 1:33:44
  right? And like I said to him flat out,
• 1:33:47
  the reason I'm sending you out is because it is important that
• 1:33:51
  you do not get used to this behavior without seeing that
• 1:33:55
  there's negative repercussions. And I'd much rather you have a
• 1:33:57
  negative repercussion here in the classroom where you don't
• 1:34:00
  want to get thrown out of an environment you want to be in.
• 1:34:02
  Then when it comes to real, and that's actually there's the
• 1:34:05
  anxious generation with Jonathan Hay.
• 1:34:07
  Yeah, awesome book, amazing book.
• 1:34:09
  But one of the things that he says was low state consequences,
• 1:34:12
  right? I'd rather deal with the
• 1:34:13
  consequences right now in the classroom where worse comes to
• 1:34:17
  worse. Right now, the worst case
• 1:34:18
  scenario for you is that you're not here for the rest of the
• 1:34:20
  day. In in the real world, the worst
• 1:34:22
  case, this scenario could be a lot worse.
• 1:34:23
  I'm teaching you what to do now to avoid that in the future.
• 1:34:26
  There's a term of that in ABA like, you know, if you would
• 1:34:31
  prefer something now sort of later, but going on that, yes,
• 1:34:36
  it's important to clarify that's that's bringing the human, the
• 1:34:39
  human part of, you know, with an animal, you may not.
• 1:34:43
  Explain that of course not going to say the gold search.
• 1:34:45
  Why? Why?
• 1:34:47
  If you they spoil on a circle, you're giving them the thing.
• 1:34:50
  But it's very important. The only thing I'm going to add
• 1:34:53
  on in the classroom setting, and this is me being, you know,
• 1:34:55
  giving my unsolicited advice. You got up and said that in
• 1:34:58
  front of the classroom. That's also maybe reinforcing
• 1:35:00
  them by giving them attention. But if you pull them aside and
• 1:35:03
  you said I'm sending you out because I need you to learn that
• 1:35:07
  this is this is not, this is not acceptable and we can't have it.
• 1:35:12
  Right. And this goes back to what you
• 1:35:13
  were saying earlier that they could be reinforcing the fact he
• 1:35:15
  didn't want to be in class. So if he said.
• 1:35:17
  And this only or he wants attention.
• 1:35:18
  Or he wants attention, right. But this is the presumption that
• 1:35:20
  he wants to be there and that he's actually losing out on
• 1:35:22
  something. That he's actually losing out on
• 1:35:24
  something that he wants to participate in.
• 1:35:26
  Yeah, that's that's that's an assumption.
• 1:35:27
  Right, So that that's how often people say like I punish my kid
• 1:35:31
  and then either they're threatening, not following
• 1:35:33
  through. They they're, they when they do
• 1:35:36
  follow through is very inconsistent or their punishment
• 1:35:42
  is actually reinforcing it because it's giving them what
• 1:35:44
  they want, whether it's added activity or added, you know, or
• 1:35:50
  another one is if their punishment gives them attention.
• 1:35:55
  So now, even though the punishment may not be what they
• 1:35:58
  want, but they're reinforcing. It there's no such thing as bad
• 1:36:00
  as bad press, there's no such thing as bad attention.
• 1:36:03
  Is that, I think, a bad publicity?
• 1:36:05
  If it so, it's very important how you how you.
• 1:36:08
  Become the class clown. It becomes exciting to you, you.
• 1:36:11
  And that's that's your role now. Even become your identity.
• 1:36:15
  There's a great Billy Strings line.
• 1:36:16
  I used to be the class clown. Now I'm just a fool.
• 1:36:18
  You know, I used to be, I used to be so funny and I'm just an
• 1:36:21
  idiot. So these these principles are
• 1:36:22
  applied in all these different ways.
• 1:36:24
  And there's a lot of, you know, moon part.
• 1:36:26
  There's also a book, I'm sure you read it, Atomic Habits.
• 1:36:29
  No. Really.
• 1:36:30
  You're totally you. Know why it's too cliche?
• 1:36:33
  It's it's too out there for me to read.
• 1:36:34
  It's too it's too pop. And when their mom read it, I'm
• 1:36:38
  like Tupac Tupac. I have a resistance story
• 1:36:41
  though. I want to be honest, I didn't
• 1:36:44
  read it, but I I have a bundle that read it and he was giving
• 1:36:46
  me yeah, these are all behavioral principles.
• 1:36:48
  These are all based on behavior analysis.
• 1:36:50
  There's a reason why it's effective and it works.
• 1:36:51
  Yeah. And then I reached out to the
• 1:36:53
  author to do a podcast. Oh yeah, yeah.
• 1:36:55
  I don't think they ever got back to me, but that's a.
• 1:36:57
  Great. Probably because they didn't
• 1:36:58
  read it. Yeah, James Claire or something.
• 1:37:01
  But those behavioral principles work and it's about when people
• 1:37:09
  implement their, their the principles, how you implement
• 1:37:13
  them is, is what they call bedside manner, right?
• 1:37:16
  You have two doctors implementing the same thing.
• 1:37:19
  And there's many different applications of this science
• 1:37:21
  with, with making businesses more profitable or employees.
• 1:37:26
  There's so many different parts of the science.
• 1:37:29
  That's what gets me excited. Yeah, it's fine and it's
• 1:37:32
  nothing. It's nothing novel because
• 1:37:33
  anyone who learns learns the possibles is like, oh, this all
• 1:37:36
  this makes sense. Yeah, I see it.
• 1:37:38
  Which is one of our one of our one of the things in in behavior
• 1:37:44
  analysis is parsimony, which is like the simplest answer first.
• 1:37:47
  Yeah, of course. So.
• 1:37:51
  Yeah. And a lot of these ideas, like
• 1:37:52
  you said, like there's a beginning of the charm where
• 1:37:55
  it's like none of these ideas are new.
• 1:37:57
  These are all just things that we need to be constantly
• 1:37:58
  reminded of because they they tend to fall from our conscious,
• 1:38:01
  from our conscious awareness. But like, that's why you need to
• 1:38:04
  work on them. But like you're not going to be
• 1:38:05
  surprised to hear like most of this stuff like.
• 1:38:08
  It's like I just hired an employee and they're like, oh,
• 1:38:12
  I'm not sure. Like Twitter.
• 1:38:13
  I'm like, I told all my employees the same thing.
• 1:38:17
  You have to learn something sometime.
• 1:38:19
  So faking it doesn't help you. Yeah.
• 1:38:22
  And making and me expecting you that you know it is not going to
• 1:38:24
  help you either. Yeah, of course you don't know
• 1:38:26
  it. Let's learn it.
• 1:38:27
  Yeah, you learn it now you know it.
• 1:38:29
  So that's what I think also it's important for like we have to
• 1:38:33
  learn something to know something.
• 1:38:34
  So if we were never taught like how behavior works or, or, or
• 1:38:38
  like the parenting strategies, there's an amazing book that
• 1:38:41
  they're parenting the strong willed child.
• 1:38:43
  Never heard of it. Yeah, you did.
• 1:38:44
  Yeah. So that is written by a bunch of
• 1:38:46
  behavior analysts, a doctor, obviously, but they that whole
• 1:38:53
  thing is built on the principles of behavior and it's extremely
• 1:38:56
  effective. And it and it discusses
• 1:38:57
  developing the relationship with your child, because if you're
• 1:39:00
  working on a on a skill with your child, you have to have
• 1:39:03
  that relationship before you, you know, you start bossing them
• 1:39:06
  around. But it's really cool.
• 1:39:07
  And how this all plays into addiction.
• 1:39:10
  It's a whole nother. Yeah.
• 1:39:12
  So it's good stuff. Love it.
• 1:39:15
  Well, what do you think about your first podcast?
• 1:39:18
  I think, listen, I learned I got to jump more into the this is,
• 1:39:21
  this is great. You really find you really find
• 1:39:23
  you're OK. Well, thank you.
• 1:39:25
  Do Part 2 now that you did this, and we'll figure out another
• 1:39:28
  time we could dive into addiction and all this other fun
• 1:39:30
  stuff, I'm sure. And then you got to come to my
• 1:39:33
  classroom one time. Oh, I'm going to.
• 1:39:34
  Be so excited. Thank you again for having me
• 1:39:36
  on. I appreciate it.
• 1:39:37
  It's good to break dice. So happy you did this.
• 1:39:39
  All right. Bye, everyone.
• 1:39:40
  Goodbye, everyone. Bye.
• 1:39:41
  Bye.