Latest / Did You See? with Jena and Michelle / Did you see that Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce got married?

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Did you see that Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce got married? · Did You See? with Jena and Michelle

0:00
SPEAKER_08: When they do listen to this podcast, I want them to know that we do wish them well.
0:05
SPEAKER_08: Yes, Michelle and Gina wish Taylor and Travis well.
0:08
SPEAKER_08: We will forgive you for not inviting us.
0:10
SPEAKER_08: I'm Michelle.
0:11
SPEAKER_08: I've spent over 25 years in media and education.
0:14
SPEAKER_06: I'm Gina.
0:15
SPEAKER_06: I've spent over 15 years in tech and policy.
0:18
SPEAKER_08: We met because we were both working to make social media a better place to be, from different angles.
0:23
SPEAKER_06: I had just started Meta's Global Information Ecosystem Program.
0:26
SPEAKER_08: And I was the executive director of the National Association for Media Literacy Education.
0:31
SPEAKER_06: We became friends because we're both obsessed with media.
0:34
SPEAKER_06: News, books, films, TV, and yes, digital content.
0:38
SPEAKER_06: And we'd talk for hours about it.
0:40
SPEAKER_06: Not always agreeing, but always learning from each other.
0:42
SPEAKER_06: There is so much media these days.
0:44
SPEAKER_06: And we wanted to process it together and work through what it all means for our culture, our politics, and how we understand the world.
0:51
SPEAKER_06: And we're hoping you do too.
0:53
SPEAKER_08: This is DigiC with Gina and Michelle.
0:57
SPEAKER_04: Hi Gina.
0:59
SPEAKER_04: How are you doing?
1:00
SPEAKER_06: I'm good.
1:01
SPEAKER_06: Did you see that we've been having a heat wave over here in Europe?
1:05
SPEAKER_06: Oh goodness, I have seen it.
1:07
SPEAKER_08: I cannot believe how hot it's been.
1:09
SPEAKER_06: Fortunately, it has broken, so I'm wearing trousers again.
1:13
SPEAKER_06: But it's been hot the last couple weeks, to say the least.
1:17
SPEAKER_06: It's been really interesting to see not just the heat wave itself, but actually the culture wars that the heat wave has sparked around the issue of air conditioning.
1:28
SPEAKER_06: Wait, what?
1:29
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
1:30
SPEAKER_06: For context, Europe is historically pretty environmentally conscious, just generally in culture.
1:39
SPEAKER_06: But despite that, it is disproportionately impacted by climate change.
1:44
SPEAKER_06: Europe is warming twice as fast as the global average for whatever reasons.
1:49
SPEAKER_06: Oh my goodness, I had no idea.
1:50
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, here in Germany, it got up to 107 degrees Fahrenheit or 40 Celsius.
1:57
SPEAKER_06: And only 6% of people in Germany have air conditioning in their homes.
2:01
SPEAKER_08: Wait, so is the not having air conditioning more about the environment or more about you have not needed it up till now?
2:08
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I think it's a lot of things.
2:11
SPEAKER_06: I think a lot of it is about the environment.
2:15
SPEAKER_06: It's about how air conditioning takes a lot of energy to power and you only need it a few weeks out of the year.
2:24
SPEAKER_06: And it also makes the heat worse because it pushes the hot air back out into the streets.
2:30
SPEAKER_06: So the general argument has been that we can just deal with it for the few weeks of the year that it gets really hot.
2:39
SPEAKER_06: But this kind of comes to the culture war thing because it sparked a lot of debate online about air conditioning, particularly between Europe and the United States.
2:51
SPEAKER_06: A lot of conversations on Reddit and X and just the digital platforms where people's sense of national identity was really coming through through the issue of air conditioning.
3:04
SPEAKER_08: Wait, this is so unbelievable.
3:06
SPEAKER_08: What were you seeing?
3:07
SPEAKER_08: What were people debating?
3:09
SPEAKER_06: So there was this quote in The Atlantic, which was talking about these culture wars, which I thought really summarized the attitude between Americans and Europeans.
3:17
SPEAKER_06: It said, Americans have grown accustomed to treating temperature in particular and physical distress more broadly as a challenge to be fixed rather than states to be endured.
3:27
SPEAKER_06: Okay, totally agree with that.
3:29
SPEAKER_06: Keep going.
3:30
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
3:31
SPEAKER_06: For many Europeans, the ubiquity and frigidity of air conditioning in the US play into the perception of Americans as profligate and pampered.
3:39
SPEAKER_06: Oh, wow, that one hurts.
3:41
SPEAKER_06: I'll say that in my experience in Germany and certainly with the family that I have in the UK, air conditioning is just not viewed as something that is necessary.
3:50
SPEAKER_06: It's like, yes, it's hot.
3:52
SPEAKER_06: Yes, we're uncomfortable, but it's okay to be uncomfortable sometimes.
3:56
SPEAKER_08: Okay, that's fascinating, especially because we're not just talking about wanting to be comfortable.
4:04
SPEAKER_08: We want to be comfortable in every single room in every single space that we're in.
4:09
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
4:10
SPEAKER_08: Have you seen Americans weigh in, or have you just seen the debate within the European community?
4:16
SPEAKER_06: Oh no, Americans are coming in hot on Reddit and the platforms, basically talking about how Europeans are so backwards for not having air conditioning and being very proud of the innovation of air conditioning being so ubiquitous.
4:30
SPEAKER_08: So where does this lead to the political conversation?
4:33
SPEAKER_06: Well, it's about do we need to alter our national identity and pride around air conditioning?
4:41
SPEAKER_06: And what's really interesting is that the far-right party in France, they're kind of making air conditioning a platform issue for them.
4:49
SPEAKER_06: Wait, what?
4:51
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, this is a party that's staunchly nationalist.
4:55
SPEAKER_06: They're really wanting to restrict immigration.
4:58
SPEAKER_06: They're very critical of the EU, but they're really jumping on this and they're using it as a reason to justify their position of climate change protection measures as punitive ecology.
5:09
SPEAKER_06: That's their phrasing.
5:10
SPEAKER_08: So wait, so what are they fighting against or for?
5:13
SPEAKER_06: They fight against climate protective measures generally, but they're really now fighting for installing air conditioning in more places and making it more available to people.
5:24
SPEAKER_06: There are going to be elections next spring in France, and we're going to see like, is this kind of a start to a shift in sentiment in the mainstream that is something that they might be able to take credit for?
5:36
SPEAKER_08: Well, what's interesting to me is that even though my initial reaction was that seems absurd, you start to really break it down.
5:44
SPEAKER_08: This is a very specific thing that impacts people very individually.
5:50
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
5:50
SPEAKER_08: And they're going through it right now.
5:53
SPEAKER_08: So it's going to speak to them.
5:55
SPEAKER_08: Yes, 100%.
5:57
SPEAKER_08: Wow.
5:57
SPEAKER_08: That's really interesting.
5:59
SPEAKER_08: And to be honest, we have been dealing with our own weather and heat-related Yeah, the heat dome.
6:08
SPEAKER_08: Oh, the heat dome here in the States and certainly on the East Coast over the last several days has been brutal.
6:16
SPEAKER_08: Did you see, Gina, that America turned 250 years old?
6:22
SPEAKER_08: Ooh, happy birthday, America.
6:24
SPEAKER_08: And the weather has created chaos here.
6:27
SPEAKER_08: I don't know if you saw this on July 4th, but they had to evacuate thousands of people off the National Mall in Washington ahead of Trump's speech and fireworks.
6:39
SPEAKER_08: Wow.
6:40
SPEAKER_08: Crowds were told to seek shelter.
6:42
SPEAKER_08: There were severe storms approaching.
6:44
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
6:45
SPEAKER_08: Fireworks were canceled.
6:48
SPEAKER_08: And we're going through so much right now in the US.
6:52
SPEAKER_08: And it seems kind of appropriate that the world is burning.
6:58
SPEAKER_08: You know, it feels very, very appropriate.
7:00
SPEAKER_08: And it was interesting scrolling and seeing so many people reckon with how they're feeling about the US right now.
7:11
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
7:12
SPEAKER_08: And certainly coming to their own thinking about how do I love this country, even though there is a lot that we're struggling with, a lot that a lot of people are not happy with.
7:24
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
7:24
SPEAKER_08: What I found interesting to the lead up to it is how we were having these kind of conflicting efforts to celebrate.
7:33
SPEAKER_08: And we had this America 250, which was the Congress established bipartisan celebration of our birthday.
7:45
SPEAKER_08: And then the Trump administration launched Freedom 250.
7:51
SPEAKER_08: And this was created by an executive order by President Trump.
7:54
SPEAKER_08: And so we had these two conflicting things that I think represent just the overall conflict.
8:01
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, the state of the nation right now.
8:03
SPEAKER_08: It seems somewhat ridiculous, but it did in actuality really confuse things.
8:08
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
8:09
SPEAKER_08: And I think that's really appropriate because we're all really confused.
8:13
SPEAKER_06: Right.
8:13
SPEAKER_06: Well, we saw that with a lot of the musical acts, right?
8:16
SPEAKER_06: That we'd seen a lot of people who had agreed to perform with Freedom 250, and then they ended up withdrawing, saying that they had thought that it was more of a celebration of the country, not realizing it's going to be a politicized situation.
8:29
SPEAKER_08: There is one picture that was released yesterday that to me exemplifies the struggle that exists in the US right now.
8:40
SPEAKER_08: It was a picture taken by a Reuters photographer of a commuter on the metro in DC, surrounded by members of the Patriot Front, which is a white supremacist group that was going to march.
8:56
SPEAKER_08: And this is a young black woman that's sitting there on the metro surrounded by masked men who then you see later are marching and yelling to reclaim America.
9:11
SPEAKER_08: And this picture is so bone-chilling and unbelievable, and to me, captures the conflict that we feel in the US today.
9:27
SPEAKER_08: And talk about the power of an image or power of photography.
9:31
SPEAKER_08: You look at this picture and I mesmerize what is going through this woman's mind.
9:37
SPEAKER_08: I did see that photo.
9:38
SPEAKER_08: It's it's terrifying.
9:40
SPEAKER_08: I do think it speaks to the strength of photojournalism and why it's so important that we are following these moments.
9:52
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
9:53
SPEAKER_08: I'm so grateful for that photographer because this moment is something that we really need to look at and reckon with and take into consideration in how we move forward as a country.
10:04
SPEAKER_08: It does feel like one of those era-defining images right now.
10:08
SPEAKER_08: Absolutely.
10:09
SPEAKER_08: I think that's a really, really good way to describe it.
10:13
SPEAKER_08: So much to think about.
10:15
SPEAKER_08: The world is burning, but I think we have some good news.
10:19
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, we have some fun going on.
10:21
SPEAKER_08: Should we get to it?
10:23
SPEAKER_08: Let's get to it.
10:27
SPEAKER_08: Gina, did you see that Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey got married in New York City on July 3rd?
10:36
SPEAKER_08: Of course I did.
10:37
SPEAKER_08: I don't live under a rock.
10:38
SPEAKER_08: I don't, I don't know how you would have missed it.
10:41
SPEAKER_08: This has been quite the smack to call.
10:44
SPEAKER_08: Uh, the attention ramping up.
10:47
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
10:48
SPEAKER_08: So much buildup, lots of people.
10:50
SPEAKER_08: So much talking about.
10:52
SPEAKER_08: Is it gonna happen?
10:53
SPEAKER_08: Is it not going to happen?
10:54
SPEAKER_08: Our reporting indicates the world's most famous couple could be taking over the world's most famous arena.
11:01
SPEAKER_05: The details may be scarce, but something is underway at New York City's Madison Square Garden.
11:07
SPEAKER_04: Rumors have been flying that Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey could be getting married at Madison Square Garden over July 4th weekend.
11:15
SPEAKER_04: And let me tell you, the evidence is growing.
11:18
SPEAKER_08: This is not just a spectacle for the US.
11:20
SPEAKER_08: Everyone around the world has been talking about it.
11:23
SPEAKER_06: There were live tickers on BBC and New York Times and CNS.
11:28
SPEAKER_06: Oh, you reckon they've already gotten married.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Now listen to this.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: June 6th.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: There were fireworks over Taylor Swift's Rhode Island home.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: 6th of June is the 6th of the 6th, 2026.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: That equals 2038.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: AKA 2 plus 0 plus 3 plus 8 equals 13, our favorite number.
11:45
SPEAKER_03: Oh my god, you're such a freak.
11:47
SPEAKER_08: There have been so many theories about what was actually going on.
11:51
SPEAKER_07: She's like the most prolific songwriter of our time and the most hopeless romantic woman alive, and yet we think she's getting married at Madison Square Garden.
11:57
SPEAKER_07: There's no way.
11:58
SPEAKER_07: This is the new theory.
11:59
SPEAKER_07: She is not getting married there, that there is a giant watch party there.
12:02
SPEAKER_07: I love that.
12:03
SPEAKER_07: Oh, well, that's clever.
12:05
SPEAKER_03: It is so acutely unsic to me.
12:08
SPEAKER_03: And I'm sad that this is like she's a prisoner of her own life if she has to get married at MSG.
12:13
SPEAKER_03: Well, Lady Garga wants tweeted fame as a prisoner.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: I think most of us lack the funds and the imagination to imagine what a wedding in Madison Square Garden would even look like.
12:22
SPEAKER_08: But this is what happened.
12:24
SPEAKER_08: They got married.
12:25
SPEAKER_08: They got married at MSG on July 3rd.
12:29
SPEAKER_08: Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey are officially married.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: The day has come.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: The sun outside the wedding venue, Madison Square Garden flashed, just married, with TNT referring apparently to the happy couple.
12:40
SPEAKER_08: It's hard to imagine that anyone doesn't know a lot about this couple by now, but we probably need to just do some level setting to make sure before we dive into conversation that people know who Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey are.
12:58
SPEAKER_08: So I'll just start from the beginning that Taylor Allison Swift was born on December 13th, 1989, in West Reading, Pennsylvania.
13:07
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, why 13 is her favorite number?
13:10
SPEAKER_08: Oh, Gina.
13:11
SPEAKER_08: Gina, yes, of course.
13:13
SPEAKER_08: Okay, well, that is why.
13:15
SPEAKER_08: Okay, we're setting up early, Gina's level of knowledge about this.
13:19
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
13:19
SPEAKER_08: And 1989 is why her, you know, her album was 1989.
13:23
SPEAKER_08: Okay.
13:23
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
13:24
SPEAKER_08: She is now 36 years old.
13:26
SPEAKER_08: She is the highest-grossing live music artist.
13:29
SPEAKER_08: She is the wealthiest female musician.
13:32
SPEAKER_08: And she is one of the best-selling music artists of all time.
13:36
SPEAKER_08: She is worth$2 billion.
13:40
SPEAKER_08: She's grossed over$3 billion on live performances.
13:45
SPEAKER_08: She sold over 20 million tickets for her shows.
13:50
SPEAKER_08: She has 12 studio albums.
13:53
SPEAKER_08: She won her first album of the year Grammy when she was 20.
13:57
SPEAKER_08: Since then, she's been nominated 58 times, won 14.
14:01
SPEAKER_08: And I think what's important to note, especially because it's 2026 right now, her debut single, Tim McGraw, was released in June 2006.
14:11
SPEAKER_08: And her first album was released in October of 2006.
14:15
SPEAKER_08: So we are at the 20 years of Taylor.
14:18
SPEAKER_08: Right.
14:19
SPEAKER_08: Which is interesting.
14:20
SPEAKER_08: And what a milestone.
14:21
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
14:21
SPEAKER_08: So that's one half of T.
14:24
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
14:24
SPEAKER_06: And then we have the other half, Mr.
14:27
SPEAKER_06: Travis Kelsey.
14:28
SPEAKER_06: So I am a much bigger fan of NFL than I am of Taylor Swift's music.
14:32
SPEAKER_06: So Travis Kelsey, he's a football player, of course, on the Kansas City Chiefs.
14:37
SPEAKER_06: I will say he's not in his prime anymore.
14:39
SPEAKER_06: There's been a lot of retirement speculation about him.
14:42
SPEAKER_06: I think this is probably going to be his last year playing, but he is widely considered one of the best tight ends in NFL history.
14:49
SPEAKER_06: He's an 11-time pro bowler.
14:51
SPEAKER_06: He's won three Super Bowls.
14:52
SPEAKER_06: He is for sure a future Hall of Famer.
14:56
SPEAKER_06: And he's clearly been making plans about what comes next.
15:00
SPEAKER_06: A lot of players will transition to coaching or team management, or a lot of players have been going into commentating.
15:07
SPEAKER_06: Travis's plans are clearly about a new career in media and entertainment.
15:13
SPEAKER_06: There was actually a really interesting profile about his management team that he's been working with since college, about the strategy that they've been laying out, basically since the 2010s, to make Travis a world-famous celebrity beyond traditional sports.
15:30
SPEAKER_06: And they've been trying out a bunch of different things.
15:33
SPEAKER_06: So in the mid-2010s, he did a reality TV show where he dated 50 women from all 50 states.
15:39
SPEAKER_06: He's done a lot of sponsorship deals that aren't typical for athletes.
15:44
SPEAKER_06: Like he was doing ads for Pfizer, encouraging people to get vaccines, which got him a little bit of political attention.
15:51
SPEAKER_06: He had a dream for a long time to host Saturday Night Live.
15:55
SPEAKER_06: And he finally did in 2023.
15:58
SPEAKER_06: So that was a big year for him.
15:59
SPEAKER_06: That was not just the year that he hosted SNL, but he also won the Super Bowl for the second time that year.
16:06
SPEAKER_06: And of course, he started to date Miss Taylor Swift.
16:09
SPEAKER_08: And what's interesting is Taylor and Travis's relationship kind of started on his podcast with his brother Jason Kelsey because it was on a podcast episode in July of 2023 when Travis told the story that he was trying to get a friendship bracelet to Taylor Swift at her Eras Tour concert that had his phone number on it.
16:36
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, because that's a Taylor Swift thing, right?
16:38
SPEAKER_08: Is friendship bracelets.
16:39
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
16:39
SPEAKER_08: So this was an adorable moment for this man to kind of admit to the world that he has a crush on Taylor Swift and he wants to meet her.
16:47
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
16:47
SPEAKER_08: And it worked.
16:49
SPEAKER_08: It worked.
16:49
SPEAKER_08: So whatever was going on behind the scenes, essentially in September of that year is when Taylor showed up at her first Kansas City Chiefs game.
16:59
SPEAKER_08: And that's when the gossip and fandom.
17:04
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, the lore of Taylor and Travis kind of started, right?
17:07
SPEAKER_08: Essentially from September of 2023 to like June of 2024, there was sightings of them at Chiefs games, at the red carpet.
17:18
SPEAKER_08: Uh he shows up at the Errors Tour dancing.
17:21
SPEAKER_08: And then he joins her on stage at the Errors Tour in June 2024.
17:27
SPEAKER_08: And that was when everyone was like, this is real, this is happening, they're in love.
17:34
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
17:34
SPEAKER_08: And then they announced their engagement on August 26, 2025.
17:39
SPEAKER_08: Right.
17:40
SPEAKER_08: And so they've both been very, very busy over the last couple of years.
17:43
SPEAKER_06: Oh my gosh.
17:44
SPEAKER_06: Yes, so busy.
17:45
SPEAKER_06: But that's why I think they're a good match.
17:46
SPEAKER_06: They're both top of their game in their respective fields.
17:49
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
17:50
SPEAKER_06: With Travis, since he started dating Taylor Swift, he has been getting more into the media and the acting space.
17:58
SPEAKER_06: His big break from an acting perspective was that he was in Happy Gilmore 2 with Adam Sandler.
18:03
SPEAKER_06: Yes, we'll get back to Adam Sandler shortly.
18:06
SPEAKER_06: But if been in that.
18:07
SPEAKER_06: But it's also not just Travis, the entire Kelsey family is very active in building a media brand around the family.
18:18
SPEAKER_06: So, like you said, Travis and his brother Jason, who was also an elite football player and multi-time Pro Bowler, Super Bowl winner, and also an expected Hall of Famer.
18:28
SPEAKER_06: Go Birds.
18:29
SPEAKER_06: They have this podcast called New Heights.
18:31
SPEAKER_06: And in 2024, they signed a hundred million dollar podcast deal with Wondering, which is owned by Amazon.
18:37
SPEAKER_08: Wait, a hundred million, you said?
18:39
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
18:39
SPEAKER_06: Wow.
18:40
SPEAKER_06: Poultry compared to Taylor's numbers, but still pretty respectable.
18:43
SPEAKER_08: I know, but that again, we're throwing out these numbers like they're normal.
18:47
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
18:47
SPEAKER_06: And then Jason's wife, Kylie Kelsey, she has a podcast called Not Gonna Lie.
18:52
SPEAKER_06: That debuted also in 2024 at number one in the charts.
18:56
SPEAKER_06: So she beat Joe Rogan when she debuted.
18:58
SPEAKER_08: You're building such a great picture because you kind of see how these two forces were attracted to each other.
19:05
SPEAKER_06: Yes, definitely.
19:06
SPEAKER_06: I think they're real partners in this way.
19:09
SPEAKER_06: And then Travis and Jason's mom, Donna, who's affectionately known as Mama Kelsey, Mama Kelsey's also a popular public figure herself.
19:18
SPEAKER_06: And she's been in like Hallmark film.
19:21
SPEAKER_06: She was on season four of The Traitors.
19:23
SPEAKER_06: So my point is the whole Kelsey family is creating a family brand.
19:29
SPEAKER_06: And of course, they've gotten a big boost since Travis has started dating Taylor Swift.
19:36
SPEAKER_06: I'm not saying that this is not a real relationship.
19:39
SPEAKER_06: I want to be very clear.
19:40
SPEAKER_06: I think that this is a real relationship.
19:43
SPEAKER_06: And I also think that the relationship has business benefits for them, right?
19:46
SPEAKER_06: Like two things can be true.
19:47
SPEAKER_08: So do you think we should disclose our feelings?
19:50
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
19:51
SPEAKER_08: I have a lot of love for Taylor Swift.
19:54
SPEAKER_08: Taylor was such an inspiration to my daughter when she was growing up.
20:00
SPEAKER_08: My daughter's 21 now, and my daughter is a singer and a songwriter.
20:05
SPEAKER_08: And I know for sure that Taylor's music and her presence in my daughter's life made a big difference for her, like a guiding light, inspiration.
20:17
SPEAKER_08: We spent a lot of time listening to Taylor Swift, going to concerts.
20:22
SPEAKER_08: We were full-on Swifties for a really, really long time.
20:26
SPEAKER_08: And so I have now paid more attention over the last five or six years as a fan myself because I became a fan just through Astrosis.
20:36
SPEAKER_08: Yes, through your daughter.
20:37
SPEAKER_08: And I've definitely noticed some shifts in how I felt about her music and about her public persona.
20:45
SPEAKER_08: And I think more specifically about her wealth.
20:50
SPEAKER_08: I do think right now my relationship with it all is a little bit more complicated than it used to be.
20:54
SPEAKER_06: That is interesting.
20:55
SPEAKER_06: It is this question of like, where is this line between being an underdog and an upstart to becoming the establishment and the person in power?
21:03
SPEAKER_06: Where does that switch happen and how does that impact your fandom?
21:07
SPEAKER_08: Well, I think ultimately she built her persona on this idea that she wasn't the head cheerleader, right?
21:17
SPEAKER_08: Like her first songs were kind of about how like she was on the bleachers watching the cheerleader get the guy, you know?
21:24
SPEAKER_08: And she's evolved into that person that she was commenting on.
21:28
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, definitely.
21:29
SPEAKER_08: So tell me your thoughts though.
21:31
SPEAKER_06: I do not have a lot of love for Taylor Swift, but I have a lot of respect for her.
21:37
SPEAKER_06: I don't know what happened because I love singer-songwriter as a genre.
21:42
SPEAKER_06: I love women generally.
21:43
SPEAKER_06: I love women singer songwriters.
21:45
SPEAKER_06: Like that's totally my thing.
21:47
SPEAKER_06: And I have a lot of people of different ages in my life who are real diehard Taylor Swift fans, but somehow I just miss the boat on her.
21:56
SPEAKER_06: And I think it's because I knew her first as a celebrity.
22:00
SPEAKER_06: And I was never really exposed to Taylor's music at all.
22:04
SPEAKER_06: I don't know how I've been able to avoid it.
22:06
SPEAKER_06: But when we were actually first talking about doing this episode, I told you that I could only name one Taylor Swift song.
22:12
SPEAKER_06: Do you remember that?
22:13
SPEAKER_06: And what was which song was it?
22:15
SPEAKER_06: Well, so I will say that since because I've been preparing for this episode, I have come across more song titles and committed them to memory.
22:22
SPEAKER_06: But there is still only one song that I know the tune of, but I want you to guess if see if you can guess.
22:27
SPEAKER_06: Shake it off.
22:27
SPEAKER_06: It is Shake It Off.
22:28
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
22:29
SPEAKER_06: Shake It Off.
22:30
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
22:31
SPEAKER_06: That doesn't surprise me.
22:32
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
22:32
SPEAKER_06: Was that like her biggest?
22:34
SPEAKER_06: No one can hide from that song.
22:36
SPEAKER_06: That's true.
22:36
SPEAKER_06: As hard as you might try.
22:38
SPEAKER_06: But that said, like I have a ton of respect for Taylor Swift.
22:42
SPEAKER_06: She has such incredible work ethic.
22:44
SPEAKER_06: She's not just a writer and a storyteller.
22:47
SPEAKER_06: Her work is also super physical.
22:49
SPEAKER_06: Like you can see that in her tours.
22:52
SPEAKER_06: She worked so hard.
22:53
SPEAKER_06: I think she's an amazing business person.
22:55
SPEAKER_06: I'm so impressed by the work that she did about owning her masters.
23:00
SPEAKER_06: And I guess the perspective that I take to Taylor Swift is, you know, a lot of my career has been in public affairs and comms.
23:08
SPEAKER_06: And I'm just very interested in the work of PR and the business of building a personal brand.
23:14
SPEAKER_06: And from that regard, Taylor Swift is one of the best, right?
23:18
SPEAKER_06: And her longtime publicist, Tree Payne, like they are masters at this.
23:22
SPEAKER_06: I was reading a profile on Tree Payne that said the devil works hard, but Tree Payne works harder.
23:28
SPEAKER_06: Which I think is totally fantastic headlines.
23:30
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
23:30
SPEAKER_08: And first of all, can we just stop for a second and say that that is the best name ever?
23:36
SPEAKER_06: Tree Pain.
23:37
SPEAKER_06: Like so poetic.
23:38
SPEAKER_06: I know.
23:39
SPEAKER_06: It's so poetic.
23:40
SPEAKER_06: Taylor Swift couldn't even write that.
23:43
SPEAKER_06: Exactly.
23:44
SPEAKER_06: But yeah, again, I think this is where Taylor and Travis are really well matched.
23:48
SPEAKER_06: They're really deliberate about their personal brands.
23:50
SPEAKER_06: And I have a lot of respect for the work that they put into that.
23:54
SPEAKER_08: What's interesting about the conversation in the lead up of the wedding was way more about what is she gonna do?
24:05
SPEAKER_08: Right.
24:05
SPEAKER_08: And even the disappointment that people were conveying about how can the biggest romantic of our time get married at MSG at this sports arena?
24:19
SPEAKER_08: Like, what are you doing?
24:20
SPEAKER_08: No one was talking about Travis making that choice.
24:23
SPEAKER_08: It was all Taylor.
24:24
SPEAKER_08: It was all, and there is part of that that is just because Taylor is the bigger celebrity and we know her well enough to know that she designs every moment of her life.
24:34
SPEAKER_08: Right.
24:34
SPEAKER_08: But there was a lot of stuff that was going on there that was really questionable where people were not considering him and were just once again criticizing her, which I think she's probably exhausted by.
24:47
SPEAKER_06: On that though, Taylor Swift is a big romantic.
24:50
SPEAKER_06: I think there is expectation about what she would do for her wedding because so much of her persona and her music has been about love and relationships, whereas Travis's persona has not been about that.
25:05
SPEAKER_06: No.
25:05
SPEAKER_06: So I I kind of feel like, yes, there is some gendered thing, but that is also kind of her brand.
25:11
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
25:11
SPEAKER_08: And I think there's been a lot of interesting articles written that look at her lyrics over the course of her career and how many times she's mentioned weddings and marriage and dreaming about the man that she ends up with.
25:29
SPEAKER_08: And I think that's where this kind of idea of a parasocial relationship with Taylor comes up, is because I think, not I think, I know that her fans have been rooting for her to have a quote-unquote happy ending this entire time.
25:46
SPEAKER_08: Like her relationships have been there for public consumption from the beginning, even as a young woman, even late teens, right?
25:57
SPEAKER_08: Everyone was paying attention to Taylor and who she was dating, and everyone had an opinion about it.
26:03
SPEAKER_08: And I think in general, her fans want her to be happy and want her to find that love.
26:11
SPEAKER_08: And I think what's interesting is that for like six years, she was dating Joe Allen, who was a very understated English actor.
26:21
SPEAKER_08: A lot of their relationship happened during the pandemic.
26:24
SPEAKER_08: So they were also private in, you know, they didn't have an option really to be public.
26:31
SPEAKER_08: But there were a lot of stories about how he couldn't kind of handle how public her life was, you know, that it was kind of too much.
26:40
SPEAKER_08: And then this all American prom king football player kind of guy comes in and is like supporting her and raising her up and loving how large her life is.
26:54
SPEAKER_08: And people were watching this and were like, yes, finally, she has someone by her side that's cheering her on, and everyone was so happy.
27:04
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
27:04
SPEAKER_08: A lot of what I loved about Taylor and I still love about her music is how much it inspired young women.
27:12
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
27:12
SPEAKER_08: And how I felt she was a really good role model for young women.
27:20
SPEAKER_08: And I love that my daughter loved her.
27:23
SPEAKER_08: Right.
27:23
SPEAKER_08: But her last album was somewhat to me a little bit like shocking because it was very poppy.
27:33
SPEAKER_08: You know, lyrically, it wasn't as kind of advanced or sophisticated as past stuff that she's done.
27:39
SPEAKER_08: But it also was kind of this message that if it weren't for you, I would be living a sad life as a single woman.
27:50
SPEAKER_08: Like there, she has the song Fate of Ophelia, where the lyrics are, if you'd never come for me, I might have drowned in melancholy.
27:58
SPEAKER_06: But I guess my question to that though is she has written a lot about wanting to find love and walk down the aisle and imagining what her wedding would be.
28:10
SPEAKER_06: So is it so shocking that when she finds love, she would write love songs?
28:16
SPEAKER_06: I mean, like as somebody who's not familiar with her music, I'm confused a little bit by why fans are surprised by how big she's going in her relationship with Travis.
28:28
SPEAKER_08: I think it's more the perception that her message is his love saved her.
28:32
SPEAKER_08: And I think none of us thought she needed saving.
28:35
SPEAKER_08: Right.
28:36
SPEAKER_08: And I think there's a message in her that last album that feels a little bit like I finally found my man, all is good.
28:43
SPEAKER_08: And from a perspective of female empowerment, it felt slightly disappointing.
28:48
SPEAKER_08: Right.
28:48
SPEAKER_08: One song that I can't get out of my mind that kept coming up while I was taking notice of all the hubbub about are they getting married at MSG?
28:59
SPEAKER_08: So she has this song called Wishlist.
29:01
SPEAKER_08: And basically the song is like, people want this and people want Grammys and people want, you know, trophies.
29:08
SPEAKER_08: I just want you.
29:09
SPEAKER_08: And she says, I just want you, have a couple kids, got the whole block looking like you.
29:15
SPEAKER_08: We tell the world to leave us the F alone, and they do.
29:20
SPEAKER_08: But this idea that there's any part of her that wants the world to leave her alone is very contradictory to I'm getting married at MSG, and I'm going to have the Jumbotron outside of MSG say we got married.
29:36
SPEAKER_08: Right.
29:37
SPEAKER_08: Like that's very different messaging.
29:39
SPEAKER_08: And so it comes to kind of what you were talking about is that, you know, what is performative and what is celebrity.
29:49
SPEAKER_06: Right.
29:49
SPEAKER_06: When I heard about the Madison Square Garden wedding, I will say that at first I also was like, oh, that's really interesting because they could literally do it anywhere and have a beautiful ceremony.
30:02
SPEAKER_06: But actually, now that I've sat on it a bit, I actually think that maybe Madison Square Garden is actually a pretty kind and generous choice for their guests.
30:12
SPEAKER_06: They had a thousand people attend their wedding, and you cannot have that big of a wedding as a destination.
30:19
SPEAKER_06: And just imagine the logistics of managing the travel for all of these major celebrities to a separate location.
30:27
SPEAKER_06: This makes it super easy for their guests who probably already live in New York or travel to New York a lot.
30:33
SPEAKER_06: They were able to manage the privacy of it because it is an enclosed space.
30:36
SPEAKER_06: They didn't have to worry about weather.
30:39
SPEAKER_06: So I kind of feel like, in a way, Madison Square Garden was just a pragmatic choice for them to have it in.
30:47
SPEAKER_08: They weren't looking for a private wedding.
30:49
SPEAKER_08: They were looking for a secure wedding.
30:51
SPEAKER_08: Right.
30:52
SPEAKER_08: And that is different.
30:53
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
30:53
SPEAKER_08: And people's thoughts were this is going to be like it's the least romantic place, it's the least intimate place.
31:01
SPEAKER_08: But we don't have the money or the imagination to realize what she probably did to that place.
31:07
SPEAKER_08: Oh, sure.
31:08
SPEAKER_08: You know, you can only imagine.
31:10
SPEAKER_08: There is something about just the display of spectacle and the grandeur and the big budget.
31:17
SPEAKER_08: You know, it cost$1.6 million to rent MSG for two days.
31:23
SPEAKER_08: The New York Times estimated that it was$12 million just for lighting and catering and sound, and just the permits alone are like over$130,000.
31:33
SPEAKER_08: So you start to realize like, wow, the level of privilege and the level of money is so astounding.
31:41
SPEAKER_08: But then, just like Taylor always surprises us, July 2nd, they release$26 million in donations to organizations around the country.
31:53
SPEAKER_08: And you're just like, these people they just think of everything.
31:57
SPEAKER_06: Like they think of everything.
31:59
SPEAKER_06: Oh, yeah.
32:00
SPEAKER_06: I mean, you see some of the blowback that's happened with these big celebrity weddings, like the Bezos wedding in Venice, for example, where there were so many protests and with Mamdani as mayor.
32:10
SPEAKER_06: And I think there is a lot of billionaire backlash uh in New York City right now.
32:14
SPEAKER_06: So I think it is generous and also uh pertinent that they did all of those donations for sure.
32:20
SPEAKER_08: Honestly, they had to.
32:21
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
32:22
SPEAKER_08: And they knew that.
32:23
SPEAKER_08: They did.
32:23
SPEAKER_08: They knew that.
32:24
SPEAKER_08: And that's that makes them incredibly smart and savvy business people.
32:31
SPEAKER_08: And, you know, they really do know their fans.
32:34
SPEAKER_08: They know what they're looking for, they know what they're gonna pay attention to.
32:38
SPEAKER_08: But there's also this idea of like, what is her obligation to fans?
32:43
SPEAKER_08: What does she owe her fans?
32:45
SPEAKER_08: And, you know, the reality is that Taylor and Travis have the money, the wealth, the privilege that they have is because their fans keep buying the tickets and buying the merch and buying the box sets, you know, and the amount of money at this point that Taylor asks of her fans is really astronomical.
33:10
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
33:10
SPEAKER_08: And then it's like the releases of the albums and the different versions and this and that.
33:15
SPEAKER_08: We're investing so much in her.
33:17
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
33:18
SPEAKER_08: Do we have a right to expect her investment in us?
33:22
SPEAKER_08: And I could argue for both.
33:24
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
33:24
SPEAKER_08: But you do kind of understand.
33:27
SPEAKER_08: I think you can understand why people have expectations.
33:32
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
33:32
SPEAKER_08: Even if it's unreasonable, even if it's ridiculous.
33:36
SPEAKER_08: It's like people have invested so much into her.
33:40
SPEAKER_08: And I would say her more than Travis.
33:44
SPEAKER_08: Sure.
33:44
SPEAKER_08: People just feel like they are owed either information or knowledge or they deserve something.
33:51
SPEAKER_06: I feel like when you have built your brand around your personal life and around your heartbreak or something that is so personal, it is really hard to change that.
34:02
SPEAKER_06: Like I was thinking about when you were speaking, there are some creators I follow on TikTok who talk about being single in their 40s or being child-free.
34:12
SPEAKER_06: And they build really big audiences around that.
34:15
SPEAKER_06: And then one day they met somebody or they're getting married, and then they feel like they have to come on their channel and justify like, I'm sorry that I got married, basically, or I'm sorry that I had a kid.
34:26
SPEAKER_06: Like I don't want to let you all down.
34:29
SPEAKER_06: It's really hard when you build your brand around something that's so specific and so personal, when of course Taylor's been doing this for 20 years.
34:37
SPEAKER_06: Like, of course, she's gonna be a different person and at a different place in her life than when a lot of her fans first discovered her and started building a relationship with her.
34:47
SPEAKER_06: I think it's really hard.
34:48
SPEAKER_06: It's hard for the public figure and for the fans, I think.
34:51
SPEAKER_08: So speaking about the wedding itself, it is still interesting how there's very little information that has come out.
35:03
SPEAKER_08: And that's another thing that's a little bit stunning that all of those people that were in the room have not revealed a lot.
35:12
SPEAKER_06: I mean, come on, for sure.
35:13
SPEAKER_06: The images have been sold to somewhere an exclusive, right?
35:18
SPEAKER_06: Or they're gonna be released on Travis's podcast, or there's a documentary about the wedding coming.
35:24
SPEAKER_06: I think it's gonna be like a people magazine spread.
35:27
SPEAKER_06: The thing is, I think people is a little bit pedestrian as an outlet.
35:31
SPEAKER_06: I feel like Taylor Swift will want to be in a Vogue.
35:34
SPEAKER_08: Oh, interesting.
35:36
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
35:36
SPEAKER_08: I think the stuff that has come out about the wedding is interesting.
35:42
SPEAKER_08: The fact that they didn't have any groomsmen or bridesmaids, and it was just their brothers standing up with them.
35:48
SPEAKER_08: The idea that Adam Sandler officiated this wedding is I don't even think he's a great choice.
35:54
SPEAKER_08: I don't even understand how that even can happen.
35:57
SPEAKER_08: I don't understand, I don't even know how to feel about that.
36:00
SPEAKER_08: Tell me why you're gonna be a good one.
36:01
SPEAKER_08: Such a good choice.
36:02
SPEAKER_06: Well, first of all, because they know each other, right?
36:05
SPEAKER_06: Because Travis Kelsey was in Happy Gilmore, too.
36:08
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
36:08
SPEAKER_06: But also Adam is funny and he's so sweet.
36:12
SPEAKER_06: Like that's the thing about Adam Sandler is he has such a sweet quality to him.
36:16
SPEAKER_06: And he's a major wife guy.
36:18
SPEAKER_06: Like he's famously in love with his wife dad.
36:20
SPEAKER_06: He's a major wife guy.
36:22
SPEAKER_06: And he's a girl dad.
36:23
SPEAKER_06: I think he's an amazing choice.
36:24
SPEAKER_06: What makes me laugh about Adam Sandler is that I just want to know what he wore.
36:28
SPEAKER_06: Like, did he wear his basketball clothes or did he wear his suit?
36:32
SPEAKER_06: But did you see that their vows were like 20 minutes each?
36:35
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
36:35
SPEAKER_06: That's what they said in people.
36:37
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I'm like, that is like a whole podcast episode.
36:39
SPEAKER_06: 40 minutes of vows.
36:41
SPEAKER_06: My God, brutal.
36:43
SPEAKER_08: That seems like what were people eating and drinking during that time?
36:47
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
36:48
SPEAKER_08: And then Paul McCartney singing the guests that we did see walk in, the fact that they had the Jumbotrons outside of MSG.
36:58
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
36:58
SPEAKER_08: We know a lot of the suburbies that did go.
37:02
SPEAKER_08: We know a couple of main people that were not invited.
37:06
SPEAKER_08: These things will continue to come out.
37:09
SPEAKER_08: This moment in time is also interesting because it's a wonderful distraction from everything going on in the world.
37:19
SPEAKER_08: And I think certainly from the New York perspective, with it being the World Cup, with it being the 250th anniversary of the US.
37:27
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
37:27
SPEAKER_08: And then we have Taylor and Travis's wedding here.
37:31
SPEAKER_08: It is such a light, silly thing to be thinking about.
37:36
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
37:36
SPEAKER_08: When you don't want to be thinking about the heavier stuff that's going on around you.
37:41
SPEAKER_08: And so that has been glorious.
37:43
SPEAKER_08: It is kind of ironic that her wedding, certainly on social media, seemed to kind of take the air out of a lot of the July 4th celebrations.
37:53
SPEAKER_08: And people all of a sudden the 250th birthday became a second story for this weekend.
37:59
SPEAKER_06: I mean, Taylor Swift loves the 4th of July, so that all fits together.
38:03
SPEAKER_06: Thank you, Taylor, for giving us some alternative.
38:05
SPEAKER_08: It all tracks so well.
38:07
SPEAKER_08: Yes.
38:07
SPEAKER_08: And I really do wish them well.
38:09
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
38:09
SPEAKER_08: When they do listen to this podcast, I want them to know that we do wish them well.
38:13
SPEAKER_08: We yes, Michelle and Gina wish Taylor and Travis well.
38:17
SPEAKER_06: We will forgive you for not inviting us.
38:19
SPEAKER_06: Looking ahead, again, when you think about it from the PR perspective, like they both have really big years coming up.
38:26
SPEAKER_06: This is probably going to be Travis's last year playing, which means he's going to be transitioning his career.
38:31
SPEAKER_06: Taylor Swift is going to be campaigning for Oscar.
38:34
SPEAKER_06: She's going to be campaigning for her first one for her song for Toy Story 5.
38:38
SPEAKER_06: So I think all of this also kind of builds up.
38:40
SPEAKER_06: Like this is one point in their further journey.
38:43
SPEAKER_06: Like we're definitely going to get a lot more Taylor and Travis content in the months to come.
38:47
SPEAKER_08: And the question is, is there ever enough Taylor and Travis content?
38:52
SPEAKER_08: We will find out shortly.
38:54
SPEAKER_08: I think there is.
38:56
SPEAKER_08: Well, it's been a pleasure.
38:58
SPEAKER_08: I think I'm going to continue to deep dive.
39:00
SPEAKER_08: I am going to continue to scroll until that first picture comes out.
39:04
SPEAKER_08: I think they're going to look gorgeous and it's going to be beautiful.
39:10
SPEAKER_06: Do you have any recommendations if anybody wants to learn more?
39:13
SPEAKER_08: Honestly, if you have not watched The Era's Tour documentary series, it's a really interesting behind the scenes look at what that year or so were like for her and also for them as a couple.
39:32
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
39:32
SPEAKER_08: It just shows how unbelievably hard she works and how his energy and his personality fit so beautifully into her life.
39:43
SPEAKER_08: So I think that documentary series is one to watch.
39:46
SPEAKER_06: Hearing you talk about that makes me think about Madison Square Garden and maybe it is kind of a poetic venue for them because it is sort of the site of both big concerts and major sporting events, right?
39:59
SPEAKER_06: It is sort of like a bridge for both of their worlds and at the level that they work in.
40:05
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, I want to be positive and be like, yeah, I agree, but I don't know.
40:09
SPEAKER_08: MSG and Poetic just don't go together for me.
40:12
SPEAKER_06: I can't give you that one, Judah.
40:14
SPEAKER_06: My recommendation, because I was talking about tree pain and just the work of the brand building.
40:20
SPEAKER_06: There aren't a lot of profiles about publicists, probably for obvious reasons, because publicists are often in the background.
40:26
SPEAKER_06: They're not wanting to be the story themselves.
40:29
SPEAKER_06: But there was a profile in the Wall Street Journal about Tree Pain in 2024 and also this New York Times piece on Travis Kelsey's team that I mentioned.
40:38
SPEAKER_06: Their names are Aaron and Andre Eanes.
40:40
SPEAKER_06: I think that they're really good paired pieces to go together if you want to read more about the strategy behind the work of their building their brands.
40:48
SPEAKER_08: Oh, those are good recommendations.
40:50
SPEAKER_08: I'm going to check them out.
40:51
SPEAKER_08: We'll add them to our show notes.
40:53
SPEAKER_08: Well, thank you, Gina, for chatting with me.
40:56
SPEAKER_08: I really appreciate your input.
40:58
SPEAKER_08: Here's my recommendation for you.
41:00
SPEAKER_08: Go listen to folklore.
41:02
SPEAKER_08: Oh, okay.
41:03
SPEAKER_08: That was the first album that she did during the pandemic.
41:06
SPEAKER_08: And it is one of my favorite albums of all time, and it's stunning.
41:10
SPEAKER_08: Oh, thank you for the recommendation.
41:12
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, I will.
41:12
SPEAKER_08: That's my recommendation.
41:14
SPEAKER_08: Thank you very much.
41:14
SPEAKER_08: Well, keep cool.
41:15
SPEAKER_08: Thank you, you too.
41:16
SPEAKER_08: We'll talk soon.
41:19
SPEAKER_06: Michelle Chula Lipkin has been a media literacy educator and advocate for the last 25 years.
41:25
SPEAKER_06: She teaches at the City University of New York and writes, presents, and consults on topics related to media and tech.
41:31
SPEAKER_06: You can find her at michellechulalipkin.com.
41:34
SPEAKER_08: Gina Wu spent 15 years in tech, building Uber as the first person on the ground in European and US markets, and founding Meta's Global Information Ecosystem Program.
41:44
SPEAKER_08: Today she is the author of Feed for Thought, a newsletter that explores how digital platforms are reshaping standards for authority, expertise, and trust.
41:54
SPEAKER_06: Did you see with Gina and Michelle is produced by Stevie Starr.
41:57
SPEAKER_06: Our theme song is by Laundry Day.