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Worship: The Foundation of Your Creative Life (with Aric Marshall) · The Daily Writer

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Creativity is a multifaceted and multidimensional topic, yet at the end of the day we operate by one simple truth.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: God is ultimately the source of our creative powers.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: The whole point of our lives is to honor Him with our creative gifts.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's why it's foundational to have a robust and meaningful worship life.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm honored today to share a conversation with a good friend who gives us practical guidance for living a life of worship.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: So stay tuned.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, welcome to the Born to Create podcast.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Kent Sanders and I'm an author, professor, and creative coach.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is the show where we explore the mindset, habits, and principles to help you make a bigger impact in your life and creative work.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm excited to share my conversation with my good friend Eric Marshall, who is the professor of worship at St.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Louis Christian College, where I also teach.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Eric is new to our college, but he's definitely not new to worship leadership and education.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: He's been a public and private school music teacher, worship leader, private music instructor, and is now a college professor.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Eric is also an accomplished pianist and plays a mean saxophone, if I do say so myself.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: In our conversation, we cover a variety of topics, including the role of emotions in worship, why it's important to be involved in church, the danger of toxic people, how to select worship songs, and strategies for handling musicians who don't fit in your church's music style.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: You'll also learn essential habits to help you become a better worshiper and a leader.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Eric and I both have extensive backgrounds in worship ministry, so our conversation naturally drifts in that direction.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: But even if that's not necessarily your area of interest, you'll still gain a lot from this conversation, whether you're a church member, a leader, or a pastor.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're listening to this episode and you're not a person of faith, I hope this will give you some insight into why worship is so important to those of us who are people of faith.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: I also hope it inspires you to keep seeking as you continue your own spiritual journey.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to take a deeper dive after the episode is over, be sure to check out our show notes at KentSanders.net slash worship.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's KentSanders.net slash worship.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get right into the interview.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a little bit of an unusual setting because we're actually recording this session live in my college introduction to the arts course here at St.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Louis Christian College where I teach.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So this is really fun.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love to blend different settings together.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we have various people who will be listening to this.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: We have obviously our college students here in the classroom, as well as creative entrepreneurs, pastors, and artists and leaders of different kinds.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that we all have in common is that we need to keep our lives centered in the right place.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that, of course, is our relationship with God.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: God is the source of our creative power and our spiritual power.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So in this interview, I want to explore two ideas.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, how can we be better worshippers?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And second of all, how can we be better worship leaders?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And by worship leaders, I don't just mean the person leading music from the church stage.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean anybody involved on the production side of worship.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: That could include technical people, uh artists of different uh artists of different kinds, musicians, uh production people, and that sort of thing.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start with the worshiper angle.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, Eric, I'm just gonna throw this question out there kind of as a foundational question, which is what is worship?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: How how do you define what worship is?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, worship is is uh really a difficult thing for most people to understand because we're in a culture that is um so dependent upon the musical aspect of it.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I would I would define worship as our response to God's revelation.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, what God has revealed to us is our response to that.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's through his son Jesus.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it does not it does not have anything to do with um starting with us at all.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: It is because of what God has done and continues to do that we worship him.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: That would be what I would say.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of a great basic definition.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we all know that worship involves all of our lives, you know, our relationships, our attitudes, uh the way that we approach everything.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: But if we want to bring it down to the context of a worship service, what would you say, you know, because you have a vast amount of experience in terms of leading worship and being involved in the ministry of worship in the local church, what is the goal of a worship service?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: How do we know when we have worshiped any worship service properly or correctly?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's a difficult one too, as well.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: But um uh if if you want to figure out if you have worshiped God in a worship service, um that is going to be dependent upon each individual person and their um and their worship to God.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um our worship to God isn't uh for anybody else to judge.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not for anybody else to um participate in, hey, you have done this or you have not done this.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um a lot of times um throughout a service, I will get to the end of the service and I will say, Man, I just I just have not felt like I've worshiped today.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um and a lot of times that's because of my inability to have prepared myself adequately for the worship.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um so in a worship service, uh as we have gone through whatever it is that that has been involved in that, it is a um it is a matter of what what have you done to prepare yourself.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so one thing that you might feel is if you have if you have feelings of joy, if you have feelings of love for what you have just experienced, it might be an experiential thing.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um it might be something that uh like like it says, like God's word says uh uh worship in honor and in spirit and truth, if you have understood what God's word has been telling you and you have desired in your heart to do that, then you have worshiped God correctly in your own opinion, in your own in your own experience.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it really is a personal thing.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that that's part of what makes it so difficult sometimes is that it's not like, let's say if you're in a business setting, you know, I've had a successful day, I've had a successful month or year.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: In some settings, or like education, for example, where we're here in a classroom, students basically know, okay, I passed or I failed, I did well, I didn't do well.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to church and worship, there's no definitive measurement sometimes.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And people even even sometimes really angrily disagree on what the measurement of worship is.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that that does make it way more complex sometimes.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think as a as a worshiper, but also as a worship leader or a worship pastor.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very nebulous thing.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's something that you cannot measure from one person to the next.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um there have been all kinds of times where I feel like I have, and then I have feel like I haven't.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and sometimes maybe when I have felt like I have worshiped God, maybe I really haven't.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's just my my feelings.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes worship isn't just a feeling, okay?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's knowing God and and worshiping Him, even if you don't feel like it.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Even if the joy is not there.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think our emotions are an adequate gauge of whether we've worshipped?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is, you know, many times in and we're probably sort of guilty of this as people who've been involved in worship leading, you know, we encourage people to raise their hands or to clap or to do things that are sort of like outward signifiers of worshiping.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: But are those emotions an accurate gauge of whether we have worshiped?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes our emotions might be just, hey, they they did our favorite song and we really like that song.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, or vice versa.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: So what's your take on the connection between emotion and proper worship?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I tell you, when I when I first started leading worship, I got really angry at the at the congregation if they didn't like respond well.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully you didn't throw things.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: I no.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to, maybe, but no, I didn't.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there I I would get kind of frustrated at the end of a service because it just didn't seem like the congregation was responding well.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: There was no um there was no loud singing, and probably most of that was due to the loud music, maybe, but anyway.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it didn't seem like they were responding well, it didn't seem like, you know, there was no raising hands, there was no uh so-called closed eyes or whatever, you know, the things that we might gauge worship in.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: There was none of that, and I would get really frustrated at that, and so I would walk off stage not prepared to listen to the sermon.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was that was I was done, you know, it just already had ruined it.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: But as as I've gotten, I guess, older and more experience and understanding of what God's Word talks about in as far as worship, I realized that it is not always an experience.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: I have come to church just really down, and it just has not done much for me in the area of music, and I have kind of sat there and and and not really been worshiping, so to speak, musically, and then and then the preacher will get up and he'll he'll speak words from God's word, and and I will like, oh man, that's great.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And in my opinion, in that case, I have worshiped God because I have taken the text, I have taken the words that He has spoken from His from the Bible, and I've applied that.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I have thought about what's going on, and then it has changed my and so worship is a transformational thing anyway, it's a it's a journey.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just something and it's not just an event.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it has changed my so it's it's like it's like a um experience experiencing joy and happiness and and raising your hands and lifting your eyes to heaven, so to speak, is not necessarily your it's not necessarily a gauge if you're worshiping or not.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: You think sometimes we have overemphasized the importance of I guess to put it in academic terms, the Sunday gathering or the Sunday event or Saturday night event or whatever, at the expense of worshiping God throughout the week in our daily lives?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, I th I think we have a mandate to actually meet together as as it is clearly stated in Hebrews.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um it is a mandate for us to come together, to encourage one another, sing psalms and and hymns and spiritual songs, and and to do those things, it is a mandate from from God.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't think that is something that should ever go away.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I get frustrated when people say, Yeah, I can worship God out in the boonies.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you can.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: But you're not encouraging, you're not doing the other things of worshiping God as far as encouraging others.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that was a question that you asked or not.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's kind of where I was going with that.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I d I do think there is an element of you know, it's not just about us going and receiving something, it's also about us going and giving something because and sometimes I've mentioned to people when talking about this topic of you will go and you'll be blessed by something or another in the service, I'm sure, if you're open to it.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: But also if you don't go, somebody else may miss out on the blessing that God has for them through you.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not always in the context of, okay, the music or whatever, or the sermon, it could be in a hallway conversation or going to lunch after church or whatever it is, because you know how we have all these conversations, and that's definitely part of the whole experience as well.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I and you know, i if you if you were to call your family to dinner and say, Hey, we it's time for dinner and we're gonna come around the table.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: I know that doesn't happen anymore, right?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: We sit around the TV and eat our own individual meals and whatnot.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it used to be where you'd call your family to dinner and you'd all gather around the table.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: So Christ calls us, in essence, around his table every Sunday.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And does he notice and does the rest of the family notice that you're not there?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, he does, and yes they do.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's an important thing for us to actually, you're right, be a blessing as well, um, to somebody else, to the family.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're part of the body.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So what would you say to someone who says, you know, Eric, I agree with all that, I'm in tune with all that, but at my church, the preaching is bad, or at my church, I don't like the music, or the music is really poorly done, or or whatever the thing.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when somebody has a legitimate I don't know how else to phrase this except sort of a legitimate complaint with something is not well done, they really legitimately dislike the music style or something.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not talking about a constant complainter.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean somebody who that goes to church and they just really, really dislike whatever style the preaching or music is.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: How do we how do we address that with people?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: This is something I've always kind of wrestled with.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just I'm wondering if you have encountered that situation as well.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I you know, I there's a couple there's a lot of things that actually go through my mind as far as you know, some some which are not appropriate to to be able to tell people.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean you know, there's just some that are are not very edifying, you know.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, I I would say if that's the case, if you're having an issue with with the music or the preaching or whatever it might be, I would ask, you know, what are you doing to help that situation?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Good question.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what what is it that what is it that you instead of just simply you know complaining about it, what is it that you are doing to help the situation?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and a couple things that go off you know come come right to my mind is are you praying for your preacher?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Are you actually lifting him up?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Are you praying for the congregation?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Are you praying for the time there?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: How much time did you spend prior to your coming to the gathering did you spend, you know, with God that morning?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm guilty of it.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Man, I am so guilty of it.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'll get up in the morning and I'll just, you know, do my thing and I won't have my devotions or whatever it might be.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: I won't even think about God until I step in the door.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like uh a family who has this miraculous conversion right before they enter the building.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they've had the fights and wars getting the kids up and all that kind of thing.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's never happened in my family.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Never, by the way.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, of course not.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Never.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, they they they do all these things and they're they're they're not starting off already well, you know.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then they get to the the the church doors and the greeters open the door or whatever, and it's like, hey, how you doing?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's good to see you.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Praise God.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad you're here, and it's like, oh, sugary sweetness, right?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just you know, they know that, and maybe nobody else recognizes that, but God recognizes your heart.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that is part of the problem why we are so quickly to sit in the pew or the chairs and judge what's going on.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that may be just because we're not we're not satisfied with the way we're living, and maybe we haven't done anything about it.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, something that might surprise a lot of people is how much your words of encouragement can mean to a worship pastor or a preacher, an elder, anybody who's serving in some sort of leadership capacity.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and if you talk to those groups of people and you get them to be really honest, you will find out they are oftentimes some of the most discouraged people in the whole church.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: But obviously on Sunday morning they're they're there, they have to sort of put on an energetic face, and you know, you're you're leading and all that stuff, but it's really amazing how much just one simple note or word of encouragement can make a massive difference for those people.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because oftentimes all they get is criticism and people pointing out what things are wrong and what they didn't like, and some and most of the time it's very petty nonsense kinds of things.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, anybody listening, I would definitely encourage uh encourage them as well as everybody in this classroom.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you guys are are this is a young class for the most part, so sometimes you kind of think, well, my words won't really mean anything.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm just a young person, but they really do.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: They they really, really do, for sure.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've been in part of of churches where the the senior minister well, even even uh even uh worship ministers will purposefully stay away from greeting people on Sunday mornings because it can be kind of toxic.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's very true.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and that's too bad because really, man, I I I think I'd probably have done that, unfortunately, because you know, really what you should be doing is being out there mingling with your your family.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it can get so bad that you just know if you talk with Mr.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: So and so or Mrs.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: So and so and they're gonna have something to say to you.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they you just know it.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: That is very guard yourself.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Let's transition into um reflecting on some things as a worship leader.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's those are some kind of questions and thoughts related to how do we experience the creative arts and worship services as a worshiper, or I guess to use a very old-fashioned term, a congregation member.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: But let's look at it for a few moments from the perspective of leading worship.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And let's talk about songs specifically.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Songs are the by far the biggest creative arts expression that we have in church.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: How do you know a good worship song from a bad one?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: When you're choosing songs, when you're looking at songs and trying to figure out what to sing, what are some criteria that you have used to determine, okay, this is a song I want to use, this is a song I don't want to use?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess, you know, since there's probably a lot of people listening, it just depends on your denomination.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: That that's very true.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: That does have a lot to do with it.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: It can be, you know.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um but you know, the coming down to the basic gist of it and what I would look for first and foremost is is it is it portraying biblical truth?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is is the song you're choosing something that aligns itself with what God's word is saying?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the most important to me.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's others obviously that like you know, singability is the song uh you're picking, is it congregational worthy?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now break that down a little bit.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: What exactly do you mean by that?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, mil melod melody?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Melody.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Melody Um the melody line, is it in easy to sing?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um is it something that isn't soloistic?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there are a lot of songs that that are on um you know, top ten, top twenty uh CCM music charts that that are really soloistic.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that means that um most most congregational members are not going to be able to sing it.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: The melody is too difficult, um, or and it could be just the melody is too high, and so people don't realize that there's keys that need to be just banned.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love Chris Tomlin, but he has got like a range and a half, okay?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to just really be careful when you're when you're making making the choice, what song do I want to sing?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is it biblically correct?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is it biblically in line with what you know I believe, what the church leaders believe?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and is it is it singable is it singable for the congregation?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is the melody easy to understand?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um is it is it something that's gonna be too high for the guys, especially?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh some of the you know female singers too.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if it's too high, it's really gonna be really up there and it's gonna be difficult to sing.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to figure that out.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And not every worship leader may know that and understand how to do that.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that's an important thing.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's an important skill to have.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about hymns today?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, both of us grew up in traditions where we sang a lot of hymns, that we both know a lot of hymns, but that's something that increasingly you don't see used in worship services today, at least not in the way that we probably know them with a piano and a hymnal and all that stuff.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that we should feel obligated to use hymns today?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do you feel any sense of like connection to the past or or is it okay for a church to say, ah, we're not going to use those, we're going to use just newer stuff?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: What what's the line there?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would say this to any any church leadership, it you have to be on board with what your church leadership wants to do in the first place.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you have a church of anywhere from, I don't know, maybe I'm maybe fifties to unup, I don't know.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just guessing.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: All right, who have spent their entire life singing hymns and the majority of people in your church are du uh are at the at that age and have that persuasion, they are probably going to have a difficult time with contemporary music.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: On the other side, if your congregation is, you know, your age and and up, or younger even, you know, high school and whatnot, then you're gonna have to you're gonna have to feel some responsibility to be able to sing some of those.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, saying all saying saying all that, um you have to understand that some of the hymns are rich in meaning biblically.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And some of them have stories that are so important to the faith um that you don't want to you don't want to you know, you don't want to get rid of them.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Even even the secular world understands amazing grace and how great thou art and and songs like that.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Even if they don't understand the meaning, they know the song.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because it's it's just a very, very popular song and it's been around forever, and it won't ever go away.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: I can't see some of those songs ever going away.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to be able to incorporate all those songs.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now, yeah, we've done some like Like um uh songs like some of the hymns and we've redone them, which is fine.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Alright.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um but some of the the complaints is that you have you have taken and added to some of those songs.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, maybe maybe it's just fine.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you like I said before, uh if you absolutely do the hymns or the contemporary music in the best fashion you can with the most skill that you can, it's gonna be good.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be good for your church.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think there's you need to do this or to do that.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: It all depends.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it really depends upon the congregation.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: It depends on um Yeah, it kind of depends sometimes on your worship leader and your worship team.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of what you're saying really is that it depends on the congregation and it depends on your leadership in terms of your music selection, what type of songs you do, how many hymns you do, and how you would arrange those.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Really, it just all depends on knowing knowing the people in your church and loving them and wanting to support their mission and what God's trying to accomplish in that particular community, not just kind of bringing your own agenda and saying we're gonna do this, whether or not it meshes with what this church is all about.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's really important to understand that you as a leader, if you're a worship leader, worship minister, worship pastor, whatever you call yourself, you're in leadership positions.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So the the biggest thing that you can have in deciding what you're going to do is to portray a hum a humble attitude in all things.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: To just make sure that you are working with your leadership instead of against them.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And same way with your congregation.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: I put a question out on Facebook a couple of days ago.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: You I think you saw this.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, by the time this is live, that'll be long, long lost in the Facebook nether world.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I put a question about what are some things that you would bring up, uh, some topics that you would bring up in a discussion like this on the creative arts and worship?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And two or three people mentioned this phrase, atmosphere of worship.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: How do you create an atmosphere of worship?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to throw that question out to you, Eric.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: What do you in your mind, what does it mean to create an atmosphere of worship and how do you do that?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Or is that even a legit goal that we should have?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think in our society it is it is a very legit uh thing that we should look into.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um atmosphere is huge.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in everything that we do, uh whatever it is, you know, God is the creator, he has definitely provided an atmosphere for us, right?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Living in such a beautiful land.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some parts are better than others, right?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Missouri is the best, of course.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oregon is the worst.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: I can understand that.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's absolutely not.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Oregonians.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just kidding.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just kidding.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'll bleep that out.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, please.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: I probably won't.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but God has provided the the best atmosphere for us to worship Him.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so um if you take away all that, if you take away uh the beauty of nature, the beauty of what God has created, um, our atmosphere is kind of bland.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just it's just bland.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: So why should it be different in the church?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so lighting, you know, uh banners, whatever it might be that you guys come up with, um it's an atmosphere.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's creating, it's trying to make now there's bad atmospheres.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's this horrendous atmosphere.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd almost come to I I'm not trying to be terrible, but when it comes to banners, it's just not my thing, okay?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: But they're good.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's I mean, some people really like it, you know.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: But some people, you know, and it's not, it's not we're not trying to win people over by our atmosphere.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to create something to where people can worship God and feel free in that.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um it is it is something that you're not gonna please everybody.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the the the fog machines, you may not please everybody.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: The the atmosphere, how you are cool, though.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they are cool, yeah.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Until it well, then you could malfunctions.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Until you have like the overwhelming feeling.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's an old testament cloud in the sanctuary.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: By day.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um anyway, but you can I mean you can you you can you can do some really creative things with atmosphere, with the lighting, with um just all the effects.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Even on our vocals, a lot of time there is what?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Reverb, you know.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's because it's an atmosphere thing.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's a thing that we do.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we're used to hearing that in our songs, believe it or not.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're used to hearing it everywhere.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: So atmosphere is good.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: It can be bad.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: It can be bad done wrong.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can have a little too much, you know, uh I'm a guitarist, so you can overdo the electric guitar pedals a little bit.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: You can, yeah.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let me throw throw out this could be a potentially controversial type of thing a little bit.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm out.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's okay.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a a problem that I think uh many churches face.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do with the church member who has a great heart?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: They have a great talent for a particular instrument, or they have a gift in some sort of creative area, but yet there's not really a place for them in the worship ministry.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say, for example, you have you have a band that's mostly guitars and drums, more contemporary instruments, but you have a great uh trumpet player or a French horn player or an oboe player in your church, and they don't really fit within the musical style.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: How do you handle that?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: What what what place is there for that type of person to use their gifts?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or is there?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm always of the school that there always is a place.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now, having said that, there has to be a certain skill level, right?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can't just have a a fifth grade band student come up and play his trumpet during your song service and probably it's not gonna sound real well.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to that's part of the that's part of the skill of a a worship leader is to understand hopefully, you know, those kind of instruments and where they fit.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: I always say that an oboe player better be good.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know when they're not.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: A bad oboe player is not gonna be fun to listen to.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, bagpipes, wow, where do you fit bagpipes into a church service?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Haven't had that yet.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Not a problem yet, but someday.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um but you have to f you have to figure out, okay, how is it, you know, with a band like you said, with drums and guitars mostly and keyboards and vocals, where do you put where do you put that oboe player, you know?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or a string player, you know, where do you put those?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have to be you have to be understanding you know, the the leader has to be understanding of where musical elements can go in a song.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because the one thing you don't want to do is you do not want to portray the same style or the same way that that you know Paul Balash or Chris Tomlin or Tommy Walker may have done a song.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're not gonna be, or Hillsong, you're not gonna be Hillsong, you know.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Chances are you're not gonna ever obtain to that because there's a lot of things that go into that, and that's for a different podcast.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: But um but to understand where musical instruments fit within the realm of a song or a worship service is so important.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always saying that if there's a singer that wants to sing and you don't have a choir, then you might want to think about putting a choir into it, unless you just don't have the people.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um a vocalist that may not have the greatest pitch or whatever, that's a great place for them to be as in a choir.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Or they can be in tech team.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the thing is not to say, I'm sorry, we just don't have a place for you.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's not you don't want to do that.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: You want to find a place for them.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: You want to say, hey, you know what?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I think you'd be really good here.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's just, you know, just lots of praying that they don't take it wrong, you know what I'm saying?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you have to redirect their talent and passion and energy into a different channel that maybe your church is more well suited for.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, this is true.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, as we start to wrap up here in these next few moments, let me let me close with a couple of questions related to habits, keys to success, and that type of thing.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say are some habits in your own life as a worshiper and a worship leader that have really helped you over the years?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Something that anybody listening to this could apply to their own life, regardless of whether they're a musician or not.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, regardless whether you are a musician or not, or a worship leader or uh just a congregational member, the most important thing I can say to work on in your your particular life is your humility.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: It has gotten me really far in ministry to be um to take a step back and to say, you know, what is it that that I can help you with?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: How can I help you?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like how how can I help the preacher, how can I help the congregation member?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, instead of being like, hey, you know what?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I was here once, this is where we're gonna go, and you just either follow or you go find another church.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's terrible.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's awful, all right.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean maybe they will anyway, but you don't have to be the one to tell them that.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: So having having a heart of humility and just being the person of of kindness and gentleness, uh having your own man, having your own devotional time is so important.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not doing that, that's that's a huge problem.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a huge problem because what you're saying is that God's not important in your life.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And he won't bless that.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he will just take that as a, you know, you don't care about me, so you know, I love you, but uh you know, the blessings are not gonna be necessarily there for you if you're not going to take the time for me.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love you always.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: God is always gonna love you.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Alright.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: So having that devotional time, being humble, taking the time to care for people.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, loving like a lot of churches have loving God, loving others.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great, great thing, great motto to go by.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think of all the things man I could I could think of, you know, skill-wise, technically wise, uh, whatever it might be, that would be the the the thing.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Just be patient, loving, kind, and serve with humility.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Great words.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: As we go into our worship services in the next weekend, whenever that will be, as you know, people are listening to this at different times and places, obviously.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: What should we keep in mind?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: What are what are maybe one or two or three things that should be on our minds as we enter into our next worship experience to help make that the best it can be for us and for the people around us?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty similar to what we just talked about, I would say.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, keeping in mind that you are entering a a family, when you go into your your church doors through the church doors or your building doors, whatever you want to call it, because honestly, you are the church, so it's kind of that's another podcast too, right?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: So um so when when you arrive at your church, you you are arriving into a family.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: You are part of a family.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Understand that everybody has a different opinion, a a different idea, and they come from a different place altogether.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: So you worship, and that's what that's kind of what makes worship cool, is that you just are all together, you're on this journey.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: You've you've come from your house, and you're all on this journey together as you enter the church, and you are seeking, hopefully, you're seeking the same thing.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Man, how can my life how can I how can I draw closer to God?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um He's already done that work to bring you there.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, how can how can you uh be encouraging?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: How can you be the best possible uh family member that you can be to those around you?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not about how what am I gonna get from this service?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Don't ever go to church saying, What am I gonna get?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's not why you're there.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're there, you're there to to be a blessing to somebody else and to worship God.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's just it.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: So everything you do, um, you might be a blessing to to I mean you might you might receive a blessing, but you're not there to do that.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about you, right?
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: We've we've heard that before.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about you, it's about how you respond to God and how you respond to others, your family members.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Professor Eric Marshall, thank you so much for being on the show today.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: How can people get in touch with you and your work?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um they can get in touch with me just by um emailing uh or calling the uh St.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Louis Christian College.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh would give my phone number out, but I'm not going to.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh don't blame you.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um But uh you can email me at uhmarshall at st is it stl?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: STL Christian STL Christian.edu.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Other than that, you can just call the the school and and they'll find me.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you also have a website with music resources, correct?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, www.musicstudioa.com.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: We'll have the links to all that and more in the show notes.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again so much.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Eric Marshall.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: And as you know, if you've listened to these episodes before, you have heard me share three takeaways at the end of every interview.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: In this case, I confess that it's pretty hard to select just three takeaways from this conversation.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Over the last 30 years, I've been highly involved in worship ministry as a musician, a worship leader, a pastor, a professor, and a church music volunteer.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a lot of thoughts to share on this topic of worship and worship ministry.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: That being said, I've managed to whittle it down to three takeaways, and I just want you to know that this was really hard for me to have just three takeaways here.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: So let's dive in.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, enter into a worship service with the intention of giving a blessing.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this goes completely against our tendency as Christians in Western culture who are immersed in a consumer mindset.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is that if you always have a consumer mindset at church, you're never going to be happy.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: You'll always find a way to criticize something or you'll find something that you dislike.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: That is the nature of consumerism is that you know consumerism is all about finding things that we like and it's about pleasing ourselves.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: But the flip side is that the church is supposed to be a family, not a collection of consumers.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: When you go to a family gathering, you go with the intent to love people and engage with them.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: For example, when you have a family dinner, a common question that people ask is, what are you gonna bring in terms of what kind of food are you gonna bring?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that should be the question we ask ourselves when we attend a worship service.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: What am I bringing?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the fundamental question that a family member asks.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: What am I bringing that's gonna support others?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: What am I bringing in terms of my attitude?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: What am I bringing financially?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And what am I gonna put in the offering plate and what am I bringing of my whole self to give to the body of Christ?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Plus, I gotta say it's just a lot more fun to go to church with the attitude of giving than it is to go with the attitude of just receiving or even taking.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: In addition, it's not just about the worship service itself, it's also about the people that you run into in the hallway at church or the parking lot.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Those little conversations might seem insignificant at the time, but I can't begin to tell you how many quote unquote little conversations at church have made a big difference in my life.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: So when we go to a worship service, whenever we're engaged in church activities, we should go with the intent of giving, not just receiving.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, be a positive force in your congregation.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Eric mentioned the unfortunate reality that sometimes pastors have to avoid toxic people at church.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had that experience as well.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: As a pastor or a leader, sometimes you just have to avoid people out of sheer emotional survival.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: But rather than looking around, you know, for all the toxic people that we know, it's worth asking ourselves, and here I'm speaking to church volunteers specifically, not pastors, we've got to ask ourselves am I a toxic person?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Am I a complainer?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do I bring negativity to the church environment?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, we're all gonna respond with an immediate, no, of course, I'm never that person.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a toxic person.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: But look deep into your heart and ask, am I a person who tends to be negative?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Am I a person who tends to bring other people down or be self-centered, or do I have a consumer mindset?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Take an honest moment and do a gut check with yourself.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're totally honest with ourselves, and most of us have those times when we are negative, when we are self-centered when we do bring other people down.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm just being real with you.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: We all get to that place probably occasionally.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: So Eric also asked the question, are you praying for your pastor?
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And wow, that is such a great question.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you aren't praying for your pastor, I believe that you have zero right to complain about anything.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: So don't even think about posting a negative comment on social media about your church.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Don't think about putting that anonymous comment in the offering plate about, you know, the music or something else that you don't like.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Don't think about doing any of that stuff until you can honestly say that you've prayed earnestly for your pastor.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then after you've earnestly prayed for your pastor, not just once, but over a period of time, still don't put that comment in the offering plate.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Don't post that thing on social media and all that kind of garbage because that doesn't really help anybody.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you still have a concern, then go to your pastor privately and share with them.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Don't, you know, put comments on social media, don't write a blog post about negative things and don't do all that kind of stuff because that doesn't help anybody.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Go to the person directly and talk to them and share your concern.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Seems like Jesus might have said something about that, I think, in Matthew 18.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm being a little cynical, I guess, but Jesus did actually say something about that in Matthew 18.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Hey, we've got to go to the people one-on-one and share with them privately and directly.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of complaining about something at church, we've got to find ways to help solve the problem in a helpful way.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're concerned about something but we're not willing to be part of the solution, then I believe we have abdicated our right to say something about it.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, don't complain if you're not willing to be part of the solution.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I guess that's part of my sermon for the day.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I come from a ministry background, so I get very passionate about this kind of stuff.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Then finally, takeaway number three is that we've got to operate by the question, how can I help you?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Eric mentioned that he constantly asks this question of himself.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: And he asks it of other people too.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: How can I help you?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: And this has really helped him in leadership and in ministry.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I would add, this is a great question for the teaching world, it's a great question for the church world, it's a great question for the business world, it's a great question for anybody who wants to serve and lead and impact other people.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Any creative work that we do, and I would include ministry in that category, any creative work that we do is all about serving other people.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about our being on stage, it's not about us being in the limelight or getting all the attention.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's ultimately about impacting lives and helping people to solve problems.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: And this may seem counterintuitive, but sometimes the best way that we can help people is to direct them to a different ministry.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: And here I'm talking specifically to worship leaders.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry if I'm kind of shifting gears on you a little bit.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking to a variety of groups in this podcast.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: So right now I'm talking to worship leaders and people who are in leadership roles in ministry.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: In worship ministry in particular, we have to have standards of musicianship.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy to lower the bar sometimes because we naturally don't want to hurt people's feelings.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes the best way to help them is to help them to reach the standard instead of lowering the bar and just letting them engage with the ministry, even though maybe they're not qualified.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that a leader's job is to get the right people on the bus.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: And while a lot of people want to be on the music bus, sometimes the music bus is not the bus they should be on.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Leadership is tough and it involves making tough calls and sometimes keeping people from serving in areas where they're not gifted.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um because they might actually do more harm than good if they're not gifted for that area or if they don't have the temperament or the you know the talent to serve in a particular area.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: We've got to help to get them on the right bus.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: So when we ask the question, how can I help you?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: that doesn't necessarily mean we just want to make everybody happy.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that means we have to make a tough call as a leader.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that means disappointing people in the short term sometimes, but you know, in the long term, we're directing them, we're helping to get them into a place where they are really a good fit and where they can flourish because they're gifted for that area.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: I know that is really, really hard if you're in worship ministry.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is hard to have auditions, it's hard to say no to people, it's hard to disappoint people, but you know, in my mind, this is kind of what separates the the kids from the adults in leadership is you're willing to make those tough calls and you're willing to do the right thing because that's what's best for the ministry and that's what's best for the people.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: So these um these three takeaways have gone on way too long uh in this episode.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: So sorry about that, but I did have a lot to say.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that being said, that wraps up this episode of the Born to Create podcast.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: I want to thank my good friend and my colleague Eric Marshall for taking time out of his busy schedule to share in this amazing conversation.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: You can find the show notes at KentSanders.net slash worship.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you'd like a great resource to help you save time and be more productive, you can download my guide, 21 Time Hacks for Writers, by visiting KentSanders.net slash subscribe.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: That is a totally free guide that will really help you to be more productive in your writing or whatever it is that you do in the coming weeks.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: It only takes a couple seconds and it helps other people to discover the show.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: You can do that by visiting KentSanders.net slash Apple.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or family member who you think would benefit from it as well.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can find lots more resources to help you unlock your creative potential at KentSanders.net.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, remember that you were born to create and designed to make a difference.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now go create something awesome.