Latest / Pod Save America / On the Ground in Iowa: The Inevitability Problem

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On the Ground in Iowa: The Inevitability Problem · Pod Save America

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: You might have a picture in your mind of what
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: the Iowa caucuses are all about. The state fair.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Butter cows, corn dogs, and politics.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Cliche diner interviews. The beans are smoking here.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: The coffee bean caucus bringing a little bit of fun
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: into Iowa this morning.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Retail politics. People from all across Iowa continue to make
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: their way to the fairgrounds as are Republican presidential candidates.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: For five decades, the Iowa caucuses have been the first
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: nominating contest in the presidential primaries and have become a
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: key part of our political process and traditions. Until this year.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: On the Democratic side, the DNC voted to change the
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: 2024 primary calendar and have South Carolina go first, shifting
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: the nominating power to more diverse states. On the Republican side,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Iowa is still first. But the dynamic is very different
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: this year. Donald Trump is basically running as an incumbent,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: a Rose Garden strategy, but for Mar-a-Lago and courtrooms across
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: the East Coast. But still, it seems to be working.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Trump's not just a frontrunner. He's been leading the polls
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: by an average of 30 points. But that's not to
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: say the other candidates haven't had their moments.
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: And Vivek Ramaswamy is hoping to keep the momentum going
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: after his performance in the first debate.
• 1:15
  Speaker 5: And you can see that is Haley. That's a 10-point
• 1:18
  Speaker 5: jump for her since August.
• 1:20
  Speaker 6: Ron DeSantis is getting a major boost as Iowa's governor
• 1:23
  Speaker 6: makes a rare endorsement.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: But while the fight for second place has picked up,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: they haven't been able to gain any meaningful ground on Trump.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Regular Pod Save America listeners probably know that I have
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: a soft spot for Iowa. I first spent time there
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: back in 2004 when I was working for John Edwards' campaign,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: and I lived in Des Moines for a full year
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: in 2007 when I worked on then-Senator Obama's Iowa caucus campaign.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: His victory there set Obama on the path to winning
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: the nomination in the presidency. And I'll admit, that experience
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: makes me view the whole process through rose-colored glasses. Maybe
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: a little too rosy. I love the weird rules, the
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: retail politics, the entitlement, and absurdity of the whole thing.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: But no matter what state goes first, our nominating process
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: should force candidates to get out on the road, take
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: face-to-face questions from voters, and not just read prepared speeches
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: at rallies or cut TV ads. But this year, it
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: seems like retail politics and all the good parts of
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: the Iowa caucus process are just dying a slow death.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: With Trump on cruise control and the other candidates stuck
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: in neutral, even I've been wondering, what the hell are
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: we doing here? I'm Tommy Vitor, and this is On
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: the Ground in Iowa, a special two-part series from Pod
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Save America. Part one, the inevitability problem. One thing to
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: understand about the Iowa caucuses is that the history and
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: significance is a little different depending on which party you're
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: talking about. For Democrats, Iowa has been a springboard to
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: the nomination, or at least a serious contention. John Kerry,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, they all won here. But for
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Republicans in the pre-Trump era, the caucuses have tended to
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: be more of a showcase for the most socially conservative
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: candidate in the race. And those candidates have not gone
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: on to great success. Just look at the most recent
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: competitive GOP contests. In 2008, Mike Huckabee came from behind
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: to beat John McCain in Iowa. Then McCain won New
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Hampshire and won the nominations. In 2012, Rick Santorum beat
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Mitt Romney in Iowa by 34 votes.
• 3:35
  Speaker 7: Game on.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: And then Romney won New Hampshire and won the nomination.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: In 2016, Ted Cruz beat Trump in Iowa.
• 3:43
  Speaker 6: Tonight is a victory for courageous conservatives across Iowa.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: And then Trump won New Hampshire, and you know the rest.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: As former New Hampshire Governor John Sununu once said, Iowa
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: picks corn, New Hampshire picks presidents. But that doesn't mean
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Iowa Republicans are any less serious about the process.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: I don't think they're trying to pick the next president necessarily.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: I think they're trying to give, you know, a fair
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: betting to everyone who shows up and to say who
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: is worth still being in the mix.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Breanne Fonda-Steele is the chief political reporter for the Des
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Moines Register, and this is the third presidential caucus cycle
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: she's covered, which means she has sat through more campaign
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: events than any one human being should have to endure.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Certainly they're caucusing for the person who they think should
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: be president. doing their best to really hear everybody out
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: and to not come in with such preconceived notions that
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: it prevents them from hearing out some of these other candidates.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: When I worked in Iowa, retail politics still mattered. Voters
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: expected to see candidates in person, to ask them questions.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: They sometimes even got personal attention, like a call on
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: their birthday or a shout out in a speech. Traditionally,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: candidates who put in the time, held town hall meetings,
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: and built grassroots organizations were rewarded. A lot of this
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: has to do with how the caucuses actually work. They're
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: not like a regular primary where you might show up
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: at your polling place, cast a vote and leave, or
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: even just send in a mail-in ballot. They require much
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: more time from the people who participate.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: You know, you're still required to show up in person
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: at 7 p.m. on a Monday night in January. It's
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: January 15th this year. But you show up and you
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: get in a room and there's a little bit of
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: party business. But basically, when you get to the presidential
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: preference section of this, they pass out blank sheets of
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: paper and you write down who you want for president
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: and they collect those up and they tally the total
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: vote count and they read it out and they put
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: it into an app and they tally it across the state.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: The Republican process is much simpler than the old Democratic
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: caucus rules, which had viability thresholds and realignment and math
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: and reporting and a bunch of stuff we don't have
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: to get into here. The thing to take away from
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: this is that if you're a Republican voter who wants
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: to participate in You need to carve out several hours
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: on a Monday evening in January. Maybe it's cold. Maybe
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: you have to work. Maybe you need to make the
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: kids dinner. That's the challenge for campaigns. How do you
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: get people so excited about your candidate that they block
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: out a whole evening for you? And that is where
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: all the organizing comes in and why campaigns that have
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: strong ground games tend to do better. You can just
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: look back to 2016. When Trump was running for president
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: in a crowded field, Iowa voters chose Ted Cruz because
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: he visited all 99 counties in the state. Iowa Republicans
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: actually like spending time with Ted Cruz. I know, it's incredible.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Breanne says that unlike Ted Cruz, the Trump campaign barely
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: tried in Iowa in 2016.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: If you think back to how he did and kind
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: of what his operation was like in 2015 and 16,
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: it was a really kind of ragtag approach, right? It
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: was not sophisticated. It was not particularly respected.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: And after he lost, of course Donald Trump said the
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: election was stolen.
• 6:48
  Speaker 7: Ted Cruz didn't win Iowa, Trump tweeted.
• 6:51
  Speaker 5: He stole it, adding either a new election should take
• 6:54
  Speaker 5: place or Cruz results nullify.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: These days, Trump is massively popular with Republicans in Iowa.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: He doesn't have to win the caucuses to win the nomination,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: but if one of his opponents could pull off an
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: upset here, that would really shake things up. And that's why,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Breanne says, Team Trump is doing things differently this time around.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: I think his operation is smart. I think they're sophisticated.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: I think they've learned. They've brought in people who know
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: what they're doing.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Trump still isn't employing the traditional approach. He's not trying
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: to visit all 99 counties. You don't see him at
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: events with just a few dozen people in a church
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: basement or at a diner. He's really only doing big rallies.
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: Hello, Iowa.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: And his campaign has caught flack for not spending more
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: time in the state. But according to a big Reuters
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: story from October, the Trump campaign has an edge that
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: his opponents don't. an enormous trove of voter data. Basically,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: if you live in Iowa and you've had any interaction
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: with any Trump campaign, 2016, 2020, 2024, they're focused on
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: getting you to caucus. Trump's opponents haven't run in Iowa before,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: so they don't have this same history of data to
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: draw on. And Trump's campaign is hoping this not only
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: allows them to target past voters, but also gives them
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: the opportunity to reach people who don't typically show up
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: to caucus.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: They are actively protesting identifying and bringing in people who
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: are new to the caucus process, which if you've done
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: this before, if you look at campaigns like Barack Obama,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: that was really key to their success, right? To expand
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: the electorate and to bring in new people. I've been
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: going to some of his events and they call them
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: commit to caucus events. And some of the organizers will
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: have people in the audience raise their hand if this
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: is their first caucus. And about a third of the
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: people in the room will do that. It's not a
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: small number. And that was surprising to me.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: I think the point you made about him bringing new
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: voters in is such an important one to watch because
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: that will not only obviously increase your support at the
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: end of the day, but it makes your opponents totally
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: blind to how well you're doing as compared to them.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, this was a big debate in the 2008
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Democratic caucuses. There was a theory of the case among
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: the Clinton and Edwards campaigns that the caucus universe was
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: mostly people who had caucused before. It'd be like 150,000, 200,000 people.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: And the Obama side, we thought we could bring in
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: all these new people young folks, people of color. And
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: ultimately that's how we won. And I think why they
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: were kind of shocked by the results.
• 9:12
  Speaker 8: Right. Totally.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: You know, they're not taking it for granted and it's
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: hard to get new people to turn out. It's hard
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: to identify people who haven't been engaged in this process
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: before and convince them to show up at seven o'clock
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: on a cold Monday night. You know, it's dark. You
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: don't want to be there. It's not the most exciting
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: thing you've ever done, but they're doing a lot at
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: these events and in their messaging to say, Donald Trump
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: needs to win big. So that everyone else will drop
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: out and we can just move along and focus on
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden. Because there is a risk when you're ahead
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: by that much for your supporters to say, well, he's
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: going to win anyway. He doesn't need me. And he's
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: very intentionally saying, I need you to show up. I
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: want to win by 30 points. I want to bury
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: these guys and move along. And so that message really
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: works with his crowds because they want to be part
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: of that win with him.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: After the break, we take a closer look at Trump's
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Iowa campaign and learn more about the voters who are
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: looking for an alternative. What's interesting, if not surprising, watching
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: the Trump campaign in Iowa is his rallies feel like
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: they could be anywhere. Yes, he occasionally talks about issues
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: that I wouldn't specifically care about. When I'm back in
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: the White House.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: I will save Iowa ethanol by repealing.
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: Joe Biden's absolutely insane, job-killing electric vehicle mandate.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: But most of these rallies are just the same old
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: mix of boasting and whining and shit-talking people.
• 10:52
  Speaker 6: But we're going to crush Crooked Joe Biden next November.
• 10:55
  Speaker 6: We're going to make America great again. We're going to
• 10:58
  Speaker 6: put America first.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: But DeSantis is really over it.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Did anybody ever see anybody fall? I think it's got
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: to be one of the worst campaigns in history.
• 11:06
  Speaker 6: He was supposed to be young. He's this, that.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: He's going to be the.
• 11:09
  Speaker 8: Future of the party.
• 11:10
  Speaker 6: After people see him make about three speeches, that's the
• 11:12
  Speaker 6: end of him. We're leading the field with 67, with
• 11:16
  Speaker 6: DeSanctimonious at nine. And Birdbrain is at eight, she said.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: She was another beauty.
• 11:23
  Speaker 8: She said, I will never run against you, sir.
• 11:25
  Speaker 6: I will never run.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: But he always comes back to one thing. Don't forget
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: to show up in caucus.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: We're really talking about commit to caucus.
• 11:33
  Speaker 9: You ever hear that expression?
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: One thing that I think is just really striking, having
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: gone to a lot of these campaign events in person,
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: it's hard to convey in a news story, but Donald
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Trump is having fun. We talk about his showmanship. You
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: go to his events and it's a really intangible charisma
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: that he has and the crowd eats it up. And
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: he's the only one who is up there having a
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: great time. Ron DeSantis is not having a great time
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: up there, at least apparently. Maybe he loves it, but
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: not in quite the same way.
• 12:04
  Speaker 8: Oh, what is that?
• 12:06
  Speaker 7: An icing?
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably a lot of sugar, huh?
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Good to see you.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: You know, Donald Trump has the crowds kind of eating
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: out of the palm of his hand, and he can
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: say these things in such a way that makes people
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: laugh and maybe shrug off some of the more extreme
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: aspects of that.
• 12:22
  Speaker 7: When we.
• 12:23
  Speaker 10: We love you!
• 12:24
  Speaker 8: Thank you.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 12:30
  Speaker 6: Doesn't sound like my kind of a lover, but that's okay.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: You recently wrote a piece for the Register with the headline,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: In Iowa, a Trump win appears inevitable. Is the fight
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: to catch him meaningful or delusional? Do you have an
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: answer to that question at this point?
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: You know, I think talking with people for that story
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: and since it published, you know, it's a little bit
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: of both. That's a huge margin to try to close
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: by caucus day. And so if you're looking at whether
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: somebody can really defeat Donald Trump, You know, people haven't
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: ruled it out. Stranger things happen in politics. And Iowa
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: is known for the results kind of closing late in
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: the race. But it's still a lot.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: You hear this everywhere. Iowa's over. Trump's got it locked up.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: And look, there's good reason for that. He's clinched tons
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: of influential endorsements. And the polls show that his support
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: is both broad and deep. Dave Peterson is a political
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: scientist at Iowa State University.
• 13:25
  Speaker 7: I've been the guy in charge of the Iowa State
• 13:27
  Speaker 7: polling for the last two cycles.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: How firm do you think, based on your data, that
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Trump's sort of 51% to 54% of the vote is?
• 13:36
  Speaker 7: I think that's pretty firm. You know, look, what are
• 13:39
  Speaker 7: people going to learn about Donald Trump that they don't
• 13:41
  Speaker 7: already know that's going to make them not support him?
• 13:44
  Speaker 7: I mean, I cannot think of many things. And so
• 13:46
  Speaker 7: I just don't think his supporters are going to leave him, right?
• 13:49
  Speaker 7: They know... That they like him. They know what they
• 13:51
  Speaker 7: get from him. They know who he is. They know
• 13:53
  Speaker 7: what he stands for. They know how he's going to campaign.
• 13:55
  Speaker 7: They know how he's going to govern. And they approve
• 13:58
  Speaker 7: of it. And so, you know, why change, right? Why
• 14:02
  Speaker 7: not stick with the candidate that you know you like?
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: The Iowa State University civics poll that Dave Peterson conducts
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: actually favors Trump a little more heavily than a lot
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: of the polling averages out there. Dave's results have Trump
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: in the low to mid 50s, while polling averages in
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: the same time frame have Trump in the mid to
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: high 40s. But the trend lines are the same.
• 14:21
  Speaker 7: So this, to me, the top line story is that
• 14:23
  Speaker 7: the Republican Party is defined by Donald Trump.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Dave told me that, historically, Iowa Republicans could be broken
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: down into three distinct groups.
• 14:32
  Speaker 7: The Iowa Republican Party historically has been, pre-Trump, was this
• 14:36
  Speaker 7: sort of one-third Christian evangelical, one-third sort of Ron Paul libertarian,
• 14:43
  Speaker 7: one-third Mitt Romney sort of old-school liberal. fiscal conservative sort
• 14:49
  Speaker 7: of aspect. And the relative outcomes have always been fairly
• 14:52
  Speaker 7: close between those. So if all three camps are represented,
• 14:55
  Speaker 7: it's been relatively balanced and sort of along the lines
• 14:57
  Speaker 7: with the rest of the country, the Republican Party in
• 15:00
  Speaker 7: the country.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: But Trump has managed to blur those traditional lines.
• 15:03
  Speaker 7: Since 2016, the big change is now Trump is dominating
• 15:06
  Speaker 7: the party, right? Those factions aren't as dominant anymore. To me,
• 15:12
  Speaker 7: the divide in the party is now a divide over Trump.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:14
  Speaker 7: Are you a Trump loyalist? Are you a Trump skeptic?
• 15:17
  Speaker 7: Are you a Trump opposition? Those are the three camps now.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: So for those Republicans who do want to see Trump gone,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: the question becomes, can the Trump skeptics and the Trump
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: haters come together behind one candidate and win? In Iowa,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: some Republican power brokers believe there's still a lot of
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: voters out there interested in a Trump alternative. Ron DeSantis
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: and Nikki Haley have won major endorsements from important Iowa Republicans.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: particularly leaders of Iowa's evangelical base. People like Bob Vander Plaats,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: the president of the Family Leader, an influential Christian organization who,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: fun fact, endorsed Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum, and yes, Ted
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Cruz before all three won the Iowa caucuses. Here's Bob
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Vander Plaats on CBS back in August at the Iowa
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: State Fair.
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: I think Trump is tailor-made to get defeated here. And
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: I think that's how crucial Iowa is this go-round. If
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: Trump gets beat here, I think it's game on to
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: the nomination. If Trump wins here, I think he runs
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: the table to the nomination.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Despite Trump's dominance in the polls, it's not hard to
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: find Iowa Republicans who are ready to vote for someone else.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: We went to an event in Sioux Center, Iowa, the
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: far northwest corner of the state, hosted by Iowa Representative
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Randy Feenstra and his wife. Randy and Lynette have invited
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: all the candidates. It was called Faith and Family with
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: the Feenstras. It was held at Dort University, a private
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: evangelical Christian college. to work effectively towards Christ-centered renewal in
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: every area of life. Well, politics is one area of life.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: This is the beating heart of evangelical Iowa.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: We look to God for our direction and our guidance.
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: And our leaders should do the same thing.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Most of the voters we talked to had nice things
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: to say about Donald Trump, but some are ready to
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: move on.
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: Personally, I feel like Trump is like the grandpa you love,
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: but you're kind of embarrassed of right now.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Morgan is 27 and from Altoona, Iowa.
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: You know, you thought he did a really good job
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: and you want him to do well. And he's just,
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: he's embarrassing us. And I don't like that. And I
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: feel bad for him. And I feel bad for Americans
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: that we all have to go through this because of
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: some people who are not very nice to him, ultimately.
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: I mean, if he's the nominee, I'm going to vote
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: for him. But I won't be caucusing for him.
• 17:36
  Speaker 10: I thought he had a good impact. But I do
• 17:39
  Speaker 10: think that he was a little bit of a loud mouth.
• 17:42
  Speaker 10: And I think he's the one that shut his mouth
• 17:44
  Speaker 10: every once in a while.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Spencer Verplug is 19 and a student at Dort University.
• 17:49
  Speaker 10: But other than that, he had some really good policies
• 17:51
  Speaker 10: and made some great changes. But at the end of
• 17:54
  Speaker 10: the day, I think that's what's going to get America
• 17:56
  Speaker 10: back on track to being more unified countries if we
• 18:00
  Speaker 10: don't have someone that's constantly pointing fingers and saying that
• 18:03
  Speaker 10: the other side is the devil or something like that.
• 18:06
  Speaker 6: I'll be caucusing for the DeSantis campaign.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Dustin Roger is 41 and from George, Iowa.
• 18:11
  Speaker 6: Trump would never sit down at an event like this
• 18:13
  Speaker 6: and talk about faith, family, and true leadership. Trump struggles
• 18:17
  Speaker 6: when there's not somebody else on stage to make fun
• 18:19
  Speaker 6: of or demean. That's the reality. You can like some
• 18:22
  Speaker 6: of his policies, but it comes down to character. It
• 18:24
  Speaker 6: comes down to leadership. And we don't have that with
• 18:28
  Speaker 6: every candidate.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Almost everyone we spoke to was critical of Trump, but
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: the only person who said he wouldn't vote for him
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: in the general election was Matt Haken, a 22-year-old from
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Little Rock, Iowa.
• 18:39
  Speaker 9: I think just as a Christian, I don't think he
• 18:42
  Speaker 9: really lives in the light of Christ. Certainly his policies
• 18:48
  Speaker 9: were beneficial, but I think apart from your policies, you
• 18:52
  Speaker 9: also have to have character. And I think that sets
• 18:55
  Speaker 9: a good example. I wouldn't want my kids growing up
• 18:59
  Speaker 9: in a country where he is the primary character setter.
• 19:08
  Speaker 7: After the break, If Trump is sort of the incumbent,
• 19:12
  Speaker 7: why isn't he doing better?
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: So some Iowans are clearly looking for an alternative to Trump.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: And it's not an insignificant number. Dave Peterson's team at
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Iowa State thinks that Trump's polling isn't all good news.
• 19:44
  Speaker 7: If Trump is sort of the incumbent, why is he
• 19:47
  Speaker 7: doing better? Right? I mean, why is he? only at 50%,
• 19:51
  Speaker 7: which is exactly the opposite narrative from everything else?
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: The way Dave sees it, so many people are focused
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: on Trump's lead that they could be overlooking a weakness
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: in his numbers. His team asked Republican caucus goers how
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: they voted in the 2020 general election compared to who
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: they're supporting in this year's caucus.
• 20:07
  Speaker 7: We asked our respondents, who'd you vote for in 2020?
• 20:10
  Speaker 7: 95% of the likely caucus goers voted for Trump. Why
• 20:13
  Speaker 7: aren't 95% supporting him now? If I were DeSantis or Haley,
• 20:19
  Speaker 7: I would be spending way more time putting, you know,
• 20:22
  Speaker 7: what does 50% in the Iowa caucus mean in historical perspective, right?
• 20:26
  Speaker 7: If you think about Trump as the incumbent Republican candidate
• 20:29
  Speaker 7: and you compare him to how incumbent presidents have done,
• 20:33
  Speaker 7: he's underperforming, right? So in 1980, 80, right? When Carter
• 20:39
  Speaker 7: was running against Kennedy, Carter got 59% in Iowa.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: And in 92 in New Hampshire, George H.W. Bush only
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: got 58% against Pat Buchanan.
• 20:49
  Speaker 7: Kennedy and Buchanan are hailed as these deep challenges to
• 20:54
  Speaker 7: the candidacy of the incumbent president.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: That's a really good point because I think one thing
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: folks have to understand about Iowa and the way it's
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: viewed is it's not always about winning in Iowa. It's
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: about exceeding expectations. I think the assumption I've made, and
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: I assume a lot of journalists make, is that Trump
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: will say, I didn't win Iowa last time, but I
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: did this time. Therefore, I sort of bested myself. Although
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: let's be honest, he disputed those election results too. So
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: what do you think of that?
• 21:26
  Speaker 7: Yeah, right. I mean, what matters is the narrative and
• 21:29
  Speaker 7: story that comes out of But the like the idea
• 21:34
  Speaker 7: that winning 50 percent in the Iowa caucuses is this,
• 21:38
  Speaker 7: you know, massive blowout. Right. Is kind of disconnected from
• 21:43
  Speaker 7: the history of the Iowa caucuses.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: All of this is interesting, but my gut says that
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: this history won't matter as much as just winning. And
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: I doubt the press corps will spend much time comparing
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Trump's results to Jimmy Carter's margin over Ted Kennedy back
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: in 1980. I wanted to talk to an Iowa Republican
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: operative to see how all of this looks from inside
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: the party. So I called David Kochel. We got connected
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: through friend of the pod, Tim Miller, a few years back.
• 22:10
  Speaker 8: I'm David Kochel. I've been a Republican consultant in Iowa
• 22:12
  Speaker 8: since the 1984 cycle. Six presidential campaigns. Bob Dole, Lamar Alexander,
• 22:20
  Speaker 8: Mitt Romney twice, Jeb Bush. I guess Dole twice, maybe.
• 22:25
  Speaker 8: I don't know.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: If you've forgotten how many campaigns you worked on, that's
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: a pretty good credential. Which was the most fun?
• 22:32
  Speaker 8: The most fun I would say was definitely not 2016.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Kochel is one of those never Trump Republicans who hates
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: how Trump has changed the Republican Party. And he thinks
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: there is a path to beating Trump, even if it's
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: a narrow one. We talked back in late November.
• 22:49
  Speaker 8: I think 70% of Iowans consistently in every poll that
• 22:52
  Speaker 8: I've seen, private polling, public polling, 70% of Iowans are
• 22:56
  Speaker 8: open to someone else. Now, Some of those people are
• 22:59
  Speaker 8: saying they'll vote for Trump in the caucuses. But that's
• 23:02
  Speaker 8: why we've got to do this. That's why you've got
• 23:04
  Speaker 8: to play the game. You've got two campaigns right now
• 23:07
  Speaker 8: in Haley and DeSantis who are putting a lot into this.
• 23:10
  Speaker 8: Haley just got the AFP endorsement.
• 23:13
  Speaker 6: A recent endorsement by Americans for Prosperity Action.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: The group is backed by billionaire Charles Koch.
• 23:18
  Speaker 8: Which brings with it probably a dozen professionals on the ground,
• 23:22
  Speaker 8: a hundred or so, or dozens and dozens of paid canvassers.
• 23:26
  Speaker 8: So all of a sudden, she's got some ground game
• 23:28
  Speaker 8: to play with. DeSantis has been there finishing up his
• 23:30
  Speaker 8: 99 county tour.
• 23:32
  Speaker 9: You got to do all 99.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Like that's the people that do that are the ones
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: that win Iowa. But it's also just an important tradition.
• 23:39
  Speaker 8: It's important to have this fight because I think Trump
• 23:42
  Speaker 8: is vulnerable. I do think it's the state I think
• 23:44
  Speaker 8: they're worried about the most. And as this field is
• 23:47
  Speaker 8: starting to consolidate, you know, I mean, he's at risk
• 23:51
  Speaker 8: of having to take somebody on one on one. Trump
• 23:53
  Speaker 8: versus the field, he'll win 100 percent of the time.
• 23:56
  Speaker 8: Trump versus one other person in a state that's really
• 23:59
  Speaker 8: paying attention to this thing, he's vulnerable. These states in
• 24:03
  Speaker 8: particular like to surprise people and they do surprise people. And,
• 24:08
  Speaker 8: you know, it doesn't take much to change the nature
• 24:11
  Speaker 8: of a race. And, you know, these things have their
• 24:13
  Speaker 8: own storylines. They have their own narratives. At some point,
• 24:17
  Speaker 8: you know, if it's him versus one gifted opponent and
• 24:21
  Speaker 8: it's close, he may have to debate them. And then,
• 24:24
  Speaker 8: you know, See what happens. By the way, if he
• 24:26
  Speaker 8: were to lose, could you imagine the meltdown?
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, God. Yeah.
• 24:29
  Speaker 8: That he would have on true social.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: It would be epic.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:33
  Speaker 8: Kind of hoping for that.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Kochel is right that early state voters love to surprise us.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: And frankly, I admire his optimism. But I'm still skeptical
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: of arguments that Trump's poll numbers in Iowa somehow show
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: weakness or that any of these candidates could beat Trump
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: even in a one-on-one race. Republican voters love Donald Trump.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: And just like back in 2016, it's not at all
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: clear when this might turn into a one-on-one race. Over
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: the past few months, the field has gotten a little smaller,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: with hopefuls like Tim Scott and Mike Pence dropping out,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: but there's still five Trump challengers left, with Haley and
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: DeSantis leading the pack. That said, if Trump's support did
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: dip below 50%, there would mathematically be a path for
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: a single challenger. Here's Dave Peterson, the pollster at Iowa State,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: mapping out the electorate again.
• 25:20
  Speaker 7: And so we sort of asked a lot of different
• 25:22
  Speaker 7: questions about this. You know, we asked questions about January 6th.
• 25:26
  Speaker 7: We asked questions about the 2020 election. We gave people
• 25:29
  Speaker 7: three choices. Joe Biden won a fair election. Joe Biden
• 25:32
  Speaker 7: won with some irregularities or Donald Trump won. But what
• 25:35
  Speaker 7: you find is that the people who say Trump won,
• 25:38
  Speaker 7: Trump did nothing wrong, right? Trump has never done anything wrong.
• 25:42
  Speaker 7: Those are Trump supporters.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: That's half the party.
• 25:44
  Speaker 7: But the other half, the Trump skeptics are the people
• 25:48
  Speaker 7: who choose the middle ground. Biden won, but there were
• 25:51
  Speaker 7: some irregularities or Trump's done some stuff wrong, but not crimes.
• 25:55
  Speaker 7: That's DeSantis' support, right? That these people who are not
• 25:58
  Speaker 7: opposed to Trump, but skeptical of him are backing DeSantis.
• 26:02
  Speaker 7: And then Haley's pulling from the opposition, the people who
• 26:06
  Speaker 7: say Biden won in a fair election, the people who
• 26:07
  Speaker 7: say Trump has committed serious crimes. And we asked people
• 26:10
  Speaker 7: who aren't supporting Trump, why not? And they gave us
• 26:13
  Speaker 7: essentially two sets of answers. One set of answer was
• 26:16
  Speaker 7: I'm not supporting Trump because of Donald Trump, because of
• 26:20
  Speaker 7: January 6th, because of the indictments. Those people are backing
• 26:25
  Speaker 7: Nikki Haley. The DeSantis people say it's time for a
• 26:28
  Speaker 7: change or I just like another candidate better. Right. So
• 26:32
  Speaker 7: they're not supporting Trump, but they're not. It's sort of
• 26:35
  Speaker 7: incidental to what Trump has done. That's the divide that
• 26:38
  Speaker 7: I'm seeing over and over again in these answers.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: So if the Trump skeptics, aka DeSantis supporters, and the
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Trump opposition, aka Haley supporters, were to come together against
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Trump under one Trump alternative, and believe me, that's a
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: big if, they may be able to give Trump a
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: competitive race. But based on the polling, that doesn't seem
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: to be happening. The Iowa poll from the Des Moines
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: Register has been tracking voters' second choices. And if you
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: look at the DeSantis supporters, most of them are still
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: willing to vote for Trump. Here's NBC's Steve Kornacki laying
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: it all out.
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: But this poll found they asked DeSantis voters if he
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: leaves the race, who would be your second choice? And
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: 41 percent said Donald Trump would be their next choice.
• 27:23
  Speaker 6: Only 27 percent.
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: Said that Haley would be their next choice. So that's
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: a thing to keep in mind when you look at
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: these numbers here for somebody like Haley, for any of
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: these other non-Trump candidates. As they drop out, it's not
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: automatic that the votes of somebody who drops out are
• 27:38
  Speaker 5: going to a non-Trump candidate.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: A lot of them are going to go to Trump.
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: This poll says if DeSantis drops out, Trump benefits more
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: than Nikki Haley does.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: On top of that, the polls tell us that most
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: of the people planning to vote for Trump are locked up.
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: There's also a depth to his support that we're seeing
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: in our poll. Nearly two-thirds, 63%, of Trump's backers say
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: their minds are already made up and they are definitely
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: voting for him.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Then there's the fact that Haley and DeSantis are more
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: focused on each other than the actual frontrunner. But David
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Kochel says they have no choice.
• 28:11
  Speaker 8: The point in the campaign that we're at now, with
• 28:13
  Speaker 8: Haley and DeSantis being the only two viable alternatives to Trump,
• 28:17
  Speaker 8: is they kind of have to go at each other.
• 28:20
  Speaker 8: There's no other way to do it. They are in
• 28:21
  Speaker 8: a competition to see who gets to go into the finals.
• 28:25
  Speaker 8: Trump kind of has a bye week, and they're trying
• 28:27
  Speaker 8: to get into the finals. And so I'm sure it's
• 28:30
  Speaker 8: frustrating to people. Trump's killing them. Why aren't they going
• 28:33
  Speaker 8: after the guy who's at 50? Except, like I said,
• 28:37
  Speaker 8: the Denver Nuggets have to beat the Phoenix Suns before
• 28:40
  Speaker 8: they can play your Celtics, right? And so that's what's
• 28:42
  Speaker 8: going on. And this has got to play out. It's
• 28:45
  Speaker 8: got to happen real fast. I think it will happen fast.
• 28:49
  Speaker 8: If we have a one-on-one by New Hampshire, watch out.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, nothing Trump does seems to turn off his base.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, the guy has been attacking Kim Reynolds, the
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: very popular governor of Iowa. He's been attacking Bob Vander Plaats,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: this very influential faith leader in Iowa, calling him pay
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: to play. Have you seen any evidence that those, what
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: I think any normal person would call a misstep, have
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: actually has hurt him?
• 29:13
  Speaker 8: You know, is it going to make all the difference?
• 29:14
  Speaker 8: I don't think so. Because His fans are his fans,
• 29:17
  Speaker 8: first and foremost. But he just doesn't have to play
• 29:20
  Speaker 8: by the same rules as any other candidate. He's a unicorn.
• 29:24
  Speaker 8: There's never been another Trump. There'll never be another Trump.
• 29:26
  Speaker 8: I mean, he's the most famous person in the world.
• 29:29
  Speaker 8: He is more of a celebrity than a politician. It
• 29:32
  Speaker 8: is kind of a movement at this point. I mean,
• 29:34
  Speaker 8: some call it a cult. I kind of agree with that.
• 29:37
  Speaker 8: The rules just don't apply to him. Gravity doesn't apply
• 29:39
  Speaker 8: to him.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: The working title for this series is What Are We
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Doing Here? It's just sort of like something I could
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: say from the ground, but also something that one could
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: ask about everyone who's traveling to Iowa to watch, at
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: this point, Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis, and maybe Vivek compete
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: for second. But it sounds like you're very firmly in
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: the camp of Absolutely, this does have a purpose. We
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: should be competing here. This makes sense. Am I summarizing
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: you correctly?
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:05
  Speaker 8: And frankly, I feel very strongly about this, Tommy. We
• 30:07
  Speaker 8: have to have two healthy parties in this country. My
• 30:10
  Speaker 8: party isn't as healthy with Trump leading it. And if
• 30:15
  Speaker 8: you're going to move past Trumpism, the best way to
• 30:19
  Speaker 8: do it is to beat him in the Republican Party,
• 30:22
  Speaker 8: not beat him in the courts, not beat him with
• 30:25
  Speaker 8: a Democrat. I think it's really important if we can
• 30:29
  Speaker 8: solve this and nominate someone else, I think we have
• 30:33
  Speaker 8: to try to do it. So to me, as much
• 30:36
  Speaker 8: as it looks difficult now with, you know, kind of
• 30:38
  Speaker 8: the national polling numbers, which are meaningless until these actual
• 30:42
  Speaker 8: contests start happening, as difficult as it looks, it's a
• 30:45
  Speaker 8: worthy enterprise. We can cleanse the party largely. If we
• 30:49
  Speaker 8: could nominate someone like Nikki Haley or Ron DeSantis, it's
• 30:53
  Speaker 8: a new generation. You really kind of turn the page.
• 30:56
  Speaker 8: And we haven't won an election since he was elected
• 30:58
  Speaker 8: president in 2016. So from my perspective, we should do it.
• 31:01
  Speaker 8: I hope someone takes him on one-on-one and starts beating
• 31:04
  Speaker 8: him in contests. And then we can pop the cork
• 31:07
  Speaker 8: when it's all said and done and nominate somebody else.
• 31:09
  Speaker 8: But yeah, no, I'm firmly in the camp of we
• 31:12
  Speaker 8: got to have this contest and see what happens.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: So Kochel says we have to play the game. But
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: my fear is that in Trump's Republican Party, the game
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: was over a long time ago.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: We wrestle with that a lot where it could be
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: more meaningful than ever.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: That's Breanne Fond and Steele from the Des Moines Register.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: But also we could end this exactly the way we
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: started with Trump as the presumptive, you know, frontrunner nominee.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: And I think that matters too, right? There was a
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: real fight in Iowa. People really got behind these other candidates.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: Iowans gave them a real chance. And, you know, that
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: says something, I think, about where the party is at if,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: you know, the winner far and away still ends up
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: being Donald Trump.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: To me and to everyone else I talked to for
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: this episode, that seems like the most likely outcome. But
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: of course, we won't really know until caucus night. Next time,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: join us as we drive around Iowa and see what
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: the race for second place really looks like. We're heading
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: to Waukee.
• 32:10
  Speaker 7: So right now we're going to Ankeny.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: En route to Newton, Iowa, which is in Jasper County.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: We go to events and hear the case each candidate
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: is making to Iowans. We need to reverse the decline
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: of this country. We need a new birth of freedom
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: all throughout the land. and talk with voters to hear
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: what's driving them to caucus. Vaccine safety, your primary issue.
• 32:30
  Speaker 10: That and communist China.
• 32:31
  Speaker 7: Those are my top two.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Our second episode drops on Friday. See you then. On
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: the Ground in Iowa is an original series from Pod
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Save America and Crooked Media. I'm your host, Tommy Vitor.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Lacey Roberts is our senior producer. Alona Minkowski is our producer,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: with production help from Ashley Mizzuo and Evan Walton. Our
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: executive producers are Reed Cherlin and Katie Long. Original music
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: by Hannes Brown. Sarah Gibbel-Laska from Chapter 4 is our
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: sound designer and engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of news
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: and programming. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Thanks
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: to our digital team, Phoebe Bradford, Haley Jones, Mia Kelman,
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Caroline Dunphy, Dylan Villanueva, and Molly Lobel. Special thanks to
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Andy Taft, Alex Hernandez, Kayla Moriarty, and the Pod Save
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: America team. If you want to get ad-free episodes, exclusive content,
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• 33:25
  Speaker 1: community at crooked.com slash friends. And if you're already doom scrolling,
• 33:29
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  Speaker 1: if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: a review.