Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Rod Brown about his choice of Extremis

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Talks to Rod Brown about his choice of Extremis · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None. A hamster with a blump pen knife
• 0:35
  for doing quicker. Quicker, quicker now.
• 0:41
  Do you want me to intro this or you intro a joke?
• 0:44
  Yeah. Absolutely.
• 0:45
  I'll be in your. Hands bless you.
• 0:52
  Bless you. I'll put this bit out on the
• 0:54
  recording, shall I, for the whole world to hear flirt in.
• 0:57
  From the off. OK, you got Can you do me a
• 1:01
  favour? Can you give me a three second
• 1:03
  count in? Because then I just know where
• 1:05
  to cut the to edit at the beginning of the episode.
• 1:07
  No problem 321. Welcome back to our Hamster with
• 1:13
  a Blump and Knife, the Doctor Who Commentary podcast.
• 1:18
  Rod who? That's.
• 1:20
  What I do Oh, come on, that joke has been overdone so many times.
• 1:26
  It's your bloody name on Twitter.
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  You're the one responsible for this.
• 1:29
  Well, yeah. OK, OK, hands up.
• 1:32
  Guilty. OK, so answer the question for
• 1:35
  me then, because I have been making that joke for about a
• 1:37
  year now. You have Who is Rod?
• 1:40
  I don't know. I'm a mad doctor.
• 1:42
  Who I'm surprise surprise. What else would I be doing on
• 1:45
  your podcast? I love pretty much everything
• 1:48
  apart from the Chase, which we've discovered is is maybe one
• 1:52
  of your favourites. It's it's one of my guilty
• 1:54
  pleasures. Yeah.
• 1:56
  I guilty, yeah. But don't.
• 1:57
  You have any guilty pleasures? Oh, the whole Sylvester McCoy
• 2:01
  era. Time in the Rally Lover Season
• 2:04
  24 is probably a guilty pleasure you love.
• 2:07
  It I feel guilty about that, you know, going on for a sneaky wank
• 2:10
  in the other room that you can feel guilty about watching
• 2:12
  Stephen Stephen Moffett, because it's nothing to feel guilty
• 2:20
  about. So what can I ask you then
• 2:24
  straight away, what? What?
• 2:26
  Like where did you come in? To Doctor Who, I'm told, Or I
• 2:31
  was reliably told by my mum that I was obsessed with Patrick
• 2:36
  Trouton. Now this is before my memory
• 2:38
  clicks. Then I'll I'll share my birthday
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  at 66. So I was like 3 when Trouton
• 2:44
  regenerated he. Looks about 35 folks.
• 2:48
  Oh, please, he tells me. He's just taking early
• 2:50
  retirement. I didn't know you could do early
• 2:53
  retirement at 35. Jesus, that's why you get so
• 2:56
  many people lining up through this podcast.
• 3:00
  Well, I'm the quickie hand. Sneaky hand jobs as well.
• 3:03
  Well, that too. Yeah.
• 3:04
  But we said we wouldn't talk about that on our Oh no.
• 3:06
  Sorry, you've got to entice. People on somehow aren't you?
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  So yeah, Trout, Trout, and apparently.
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  But I have no memory so perfectly and I've been obsessed
• 3:17
  pretty much since day one, never gone away.
• 3:20
  VHSS, DVDs, The Lot, New Adventures, Virgin Books, BBC
• 3:25
  Books. Yeah, The Lot.
• 3:27
  You haven't Right? What?
• 3:29
  I've got a new convert to the Hamster Book Club here.
• 3:31
  Fabulous. Absolutely no.
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  They're all still on the shelf. First editions of all of them.
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  Oh, OK. It's always just run down to
• 3:37
  Forbidden Planets in Manchester in those days where I was, and
• 3:40
  pick up the new new copy every time they came.
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  I'm one of those sad geeks. Yeah, well, that's what we
• 3:46
  really like. Well, that's true.
• 3:47
  Do. You have a favorite era.
• 3:54
  It's really difficult, isn't it? How do you compare?
• 3:57
  Probably. All right.
• 3:58
  I'll get Tom and Elizabeth Slayton probably, but you know
• 4:03
  Sylvester and Sophie. I'm going to very, very large
• 4:07
  parts of my heart. I'm going to paint a picture for
• 4:11
  you then, right? You've had a particularly
• 4:13
  stressful day in early retirement.
• 4:15
  OK, so I'm not. I'm not sure how that's
• 4:16
  stressful, but imagine you're so bitter, so young.
• 4:19
  So. Bitter, you bastard.
• 4:24
  I'll be hauling fucking vegetables around tomorrow,
• 4:26
  right whilst you're having a lie in.
• 4:30
  So you had a particularly bad day and you come home and you're
• 4:34
  like, oh God, all right, I just need to watch Doctor Who.
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  What would you pull off the shelf if we've been a long, hard
• 4:43
  day? Probably Hinchcliffe.
• 4:47
  Lazy Sunday afternoon. Probably a perk way.
• 4:54
  Need a bit of levity, Sylvester? Well, hey, I'm, you know, I
• 5:00
  don't want to down downgrade the new series either, but I suppose
• 5:04
  you know your heart belongs where you first grew up, doesn't
• 5:06
  it? So I probably tend to veer more
• 5:08
  towards the classic, but you know, I love the new series too.
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  Is it? Oh, it's a bit of an unfair
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  question. I don't usually ask this, but is
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  it like an equal love or I always feel like with the
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  classic series, like, that's part of your life for such a
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  long time? Absolutely, yeah.
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  Whereas the new series is about 15 years old at the moment, so
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  it's. Making us feel old.
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  It's not new series anymore but. It still feels new.
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  IT does, doesn't it? Yeah, you know, I can still
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  remember when the production values of Season 26 were like
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  the height of television. Oh God, yeah, absolutely.
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  But when we're celebrating the other week that it's 20 years
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  since the announcement's been coming back, it's like, how the
• 5:49
  hell is that 20 years? 20 years?
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  Are you kidding me right now? Jesus Christ.
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  I was planning my, my, my wedding when that was going on.
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  We're long divorced now. Lots has happened much.
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  More has gone under the bridge since then.
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  OK, Well, then let's turn our attention to the new series.
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  Yeah, because we're talking about extremists from Season 10
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  today. So I'm going to ask you 3
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  questions. Go for it.
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  You're showrunner of preference. So just just, I don't know.
• 6:21
  There's strengths and weaknesses everywhere, but your showrunner
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  of preference probably going to be Moffat.
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  It's slim, but I think I would always, yeah, I'd probably end
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  up on Moffat. You know there's several members
• 6:33
  of this hamster community punch in the air right now.
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  No, I've heard some of the yeah, I won't mention wedding with for
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  some common trade I was treating fathers.
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  Don't worry, I've got Asylum of the Darts coming out soon and
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  that's Luke Malloy telling me just how amazing that one is.
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  He's superb. I don't know why it doesn't get
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  more love. Oh well, I better not give my
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  opinion on that. 1. Why I'm off it.
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  I just think he's whip smart. Clever, yes.
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  Sometimes he goes off the rails. And you know all I said.
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  I was spitting feathers at the wedding of Rivers on commentary.
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  You know, there is some truth in there.
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  Sometimes he does make it up as he goes along and think even in
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  something that I think is really good, like extremists.
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  If you stand back and think of some of the logic at the end,
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  does that really quite work? But I get carried in a way.
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  Enough with the characters, the setting, the dialogue.
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  I just love his dialogue. I love his language.
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  I love his dialogue. It's just smart.
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  It's clever. You can watch it so many times.
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  You always get something new out of it.
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  I just think he's really clever and when he's at the top of his
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  game, something like, you know, World Enough in Time is just
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  superb. I I can't argue that at all
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  because I think you know what not the Time and the Doctor
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  Falls, excuse me, is they're two of the greatest new series
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  episodes. I think what you said about his
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  dialogue there, that might be that might be like the direction
• 8:01
  you go in with Moffett, you you either find it very witty and
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  very sort of substantive. Or you find it unbearably smug
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  and, you know, impossible to tolerate.
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  Like me. Sometimes I can see that.
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  But that doesn't doesn't work, that that doesn't happen to me.
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  I just think he's just clever. I just love it.
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  I mean, I love RTD too. Don't get me wrong, he's he's
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  clever in a different way. Really looking forward to seeing
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  what he does new, what he brings, fresh.
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  But yeah, I think if I had to choose one of them, it's going
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  to be Moffett. And so how did you find Peter
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  Capaldi's era then? Loved it.
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  I would say it was probably my favorite era of the new season.
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  So new, new series. Yeah, it's dark.
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  It's clever, possibly sometimes a little bit too dark.
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  We'll talk about some of the themes and extremists.
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  I mean, when did Doctor Whoever talk about mass suicide before,
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  you know, Death in Heaven, the really, really dark themes that
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  he deals with? Maybe sometimes that's a little
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  bit close to the knuckle. And I know you've had some, you
• 9:10
  know, you maybe touched a few raw nerves with you on some
• 9:14
  episodes. And yeah, maybe it is a bit.
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  But you know, the same criticisms were launched at
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  Hinchcliffe and Holmes back in the 70s.
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  You've got to push the envelope though, I think as well.
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  It's like even if I don't like it all the time I go, I really
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  admire it. Yeah, he gives you a get out.
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  There is. I mean even when we talk about,
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  I say the mass suicide that we're going to talk about,
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  that's a joyful discussion for an evening, isn't it?
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  It gives you a little get out clause at the end.
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  But, you know, I think the seat has already sown in the minds of
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  the audience what we're talking about.
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  So it's dark, but I I do enjoy it.
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  I just think it's it's clever, it's smart and love the
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  characters. Capaldi is an actor.
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  I think he's probably the best actor we've ever had in the
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  role. I mean, just his.
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  Delivery. I can't disagree with that.
• 10:00
  Yeah. I mean, his performance is at
• 10:02
  their absolute best, and when he's given material that really
• 10:06
  lets him fly, and when he's given a Co star like Michelle
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  Gomez as well, my God, the two of them fly together.
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  And Pearl Mackie. Oh, I'm Pearl Mackie.
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  Yeah, absolutely. How do you give Matt Lucas's due
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  as well? You know, I think.
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  I think there's this sensational trio.
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  Why have I got some things to say about Matt Lucas in this?
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  Because what surprise that was. Yeah, exactly.
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  He is a surprise. And So what about finally before
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  we go in? What about Season 10 as a whole?
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  Series 10, Probably my favorite single season of the new new
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  series. Yeah, because I just think it
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  gets it right. I know Moffett wasn't even
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  supposed to do it. So it's kind of an added extra.
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  You'd think maybe throw it away and obviously, you know, we
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  might talk about it later on. He had some personal issues,
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  particularly around kind of Monk trilogy, which made him pull
• 10:59
  away. I don't think you particularly
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  notice it. I mean, I'm quite a big advocate
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  for the Monk Trilogy. I think it's different.
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  Yes. It doesn't follow the normal
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  trajectory of a three party. It's not structured the same,
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  but actually is doing something a little bit different.
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  It's almost like looking at an invasion in in three different
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  parts rather than doing your typical progressive, you know,
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  go back to your poet as we were talking about earlier.
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  It's not a seven part episode rollout.
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  You don't have that linear progression with them.
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  They are kind of coming in at slightly different points of
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  time and looking at things from different angles.
• 11:32
  I think they're very clever, always.
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  Feel like every time we do these three parts.
• 11:36
  They are three bars because they are narratives that run into
• 11:39
  each other, but they're always very different episodes.
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  Utopia, Sound of Drums, Last of the Time Lords.
• 11:46
  Turn Left, Stolen Earth Journeys, End.
• 11:49
  Face the Raven, Heaven Sent Hell, Ben.
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  Every time they do these sort of three bars, it's like we know
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  this is going to be a lot, sort of long run, so we'll make it as
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  diverse and as interesting as possible.
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  But I think one of one of the big differences with this one I
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  would say is that it's got three different writers and the last
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  two were written before extremists and they came with
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  their own ideas. So it wasn't ever devised as a
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  three parter. So, you know, Toby Wit House
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  wants to do something about the 1984 totalitarian state.
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  So Steve Moffat, oh, we'll put that together.
• 12:22
  Peter Harkness wanted to do something about Kung Fu monks,
• 12:25
  maybe unseen tooth and claw, but that's what he wants to do.
• 12:28
  So he was then shaped into this three-part.
• 12:30
  So it was never meant to be a three parter in the sense that,
• 12:33
  you know, it's the season finale that Russell or Stephen Moffitt
• 12:37
  have written themselves. It was meant to be, you know,
• 12:39
  they were three separate stories they started at and then he wove
• 12:42
  them together. So yeah, it does come as say I
• 12:44
  think the advantage of that is you get this different
• 12:47
  perspective on an invasion, but I think a lot of people
• 12:50
  criticize it because it doesn't follow that norm that we usually
• 12:54
  get. You know, we don't necessarily
• 12:56
  understand what the Monks motivations are even by the end
• 12:59
  of it. Does that actually matter?
• 13:02
  It does to me, but, well, like for me, the Monks trilogy is
• 13:07
  like the law of diminishing returns.
• 13:09
  Because I I went on the podcast recently and I almost put
• 13:12
  Extremists as my favorite Moffett Capaldi episode because
• 13:16
  I I love this. But I did put The Lie of the
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  Land as my least favorite of the entire P Kabaldi era, because I
• 13:23
  just feel like there's a it's a bit of an illogical mess and
• 13:28
  there's scenes in it. Like when Bill shoots the
• 13:30
  Doctor. That I really dislike.
• 13:32
  Yeah, I know people have a real I must admit I didn't have such
• 13:36
  a negative reaction to that particular scene, but I know
• 13:39
  that really winds people up. It is a bit left field.
• 13:42
  I you know, I'd I'd struggle to really defend it.
• 13:45
  But equally, I'm not that offended by it.
• 13:49
  The weird thing about extremists is is you can kind of tell it's
• 13:53
  been bolted on because it's effectively a trailer for what's
• 13:57
  to come. With this one, right.
• 14:00
  I want to tell you because when I watched this, when it went
• 14:03
  out, I was at a friend's house and I got to about 20 minutes in
• 14:07
  and, you know, you know, me and Moffett.
• 14:08
  So I was fatigued with all of his tricks by this point that he
• 14:13
  was sort of pulling out of the bag again and again and again.
• 14:15
  And we're 20 minutes in and I must go, for God's sakes, we're
• 14:19
  there with Missy. We're here in the Vatican.
• 14:21
  We're there with it. Oh, why doesn't he just, like,
• 14:24
  literally just sit, stand still for a second and tell a bloody
• 14:27
  story? And it's doing all these things.
• 14:29
  There's lots of ideas in there. And and I was like, I don't
• 14:32
  understand what this story is about, what is going on.
• 14:36
  And then almost. As if to answer his critics,
• 14:42
  when that twist hits, when Nardo and Bill realise that they're
• 14:48
  not real and every single part of this story comes together
• 14:53
  like a perfect lock, and I literally, I jumped out of my
• 14:57
  seat and went, that is fucking clever, Oh my God's Moffett at
• 15:02
  his best, isn't it? I don't often do that with the
• 15:05
  Steamer Moffett story, but I was just like.
• 15:07
  Jesus Christ, all of a sudden in one scene, all of it fell into
• 15:11
  place like like beautifully. That's why I love this one,
• 15:15
  because I was annoyed. And then by the end I was going.
• 15:19
  Bring on the Monk Trilogy. Let's go you know.
• 15:22
  Yeah. And the next two aren't I mean
• 15:23
  they're not up to this side. This is this is I would say this
• 15:26
  is a classic and I looked at the DWM poll actually because of
• 15:29
  what was intriguing where this sat and it came tenth out took a
• 15:32
  hold this so. Pretty good.
• 15:34
  Pretty good. Yeah, good.
• 15:35
  I think I saw Moffitt even interview about this one and say
• 15:39
  that this was his last chance to do something completely left
• 15:42
  field. Like the the rest of the run was
• 15:45
  all sort of not traditional Doctor.
• 15:47
  Episodes, but episodes that you could see, you know, elsewhere
• 15:50
  in Doctor Who where this was his last time to do something
• 15:53
  totally off kilter and he just, he runs with it and like you
• 15:57
  said, mass suicide things like, you know, like there's stuff in
• 15:59
  here that, I mean, the president of the United States is sitting
• 16:02
  in a chair with a bottle of pills like.
• 16:05
  We don't go. He's pretty bleak, isn't it?
• 16:07
  And it but but incredible for it, Yeah.
• 16:11
  What would Mary Whitehouse have thought?
• 16:13
  Oh, she's spinning her grave. You know, the the fact that
• 16:15
  we're enjoying it right now and this commentary we're about to
• 16:18
  do to me, those two men down there are very irresponsive.
• 16:24
  Sorry, my Mary White House impression.
• 16:25
  It's terrible. You remember that on that?
• 16:28
  What documentary was it that I remember at the time?
• 16:32
  Yeah, she made. Yeah.
• 16:33
  I was always perpetually worried about Mary White House because
• 16:36
  in my young mind she was, you know, potentially going to take
• 16:39
  Doctor Who off air. So I know JNT used to rub his
• 16:42
  hands because you always used to say, well, it adds millions to
• 16:44
  viewing figures. Not that she complained much
• 16:46
  about his era, but. I'll say that was the era where
• 16:51
  she could have objected to the most faces melting.
• 16:55
  Grady was objecting. That's true.
• 16:57
  Yeah. There.
• 16:57
  Was policemen shooting down innocent people with their metal
• 17:01
  detectors? You know, there was a lot of
• 17:03
  very strange stuff going on in the 80s that's come to out on
• 17:07
  another podcast. We will.
• 17:09
  We will. Should we head in and watch
• 17:12
  extremists and see what it has to offer?
• 17:14
  Let's do it. One thing I'm going to ask you
• 17:15
  before we start, because I was thinking about this before I
• 17:18
  thought this is actually quite a unique Doctor Who story, because
• 17:21
  when do we ever get the planning?
• 17:24
  We don't ever see the planning stage of of an invasion.
• 17:27
  This is really quite unique. Now you say that there is one
• 17:30
  other time. Exactly.
• 17:32
  That's why it's suddenly the penny suddenly dropped you.
• 17:34
  You're thinking the Android. Invasion.
• 17:35
  I am, yes. Yeah.
• 17:37
  I was thinking to start with, God, this is really different.
• 17:39
  And then, yeah, exactly. The penny draft thought.
• 17:42
  Oh, actually, no, it has been done before.
• 17:44
  What's so clever about that is he's subverting the ad There,
• 17:48
  it's all from the Doctor of Sarah's point of view.
• 17:50
  And they are real and everybody else is fake.
• 17:53
  And it's clear everybody else is fake.
• 17:55
  Whereas here Moffett writes this episode as if we are just
• 17:58
  watching. All of these characters living
• 18:01
  their real lives. And I even think sort of there
• 18:05
  are lots of hints throughout that that as to what the twist
• 18:09
  is, the massive size of being the biggest.
• 18:11
  You know what, as soon as they learn this great secret, these
• 18:14
  people are topping themselves. Yeah, so it is.
• 18:18
  It's similar, but it is different.
• 18:21
  Oh, absolutely. He wasn't going to.
• 18:23
  It's his spin on these things. But he could have gone and
• 18:25
  filmed it at Didcot, couldn't he?
• 18:26
  That would have been great. You know, I tied Peter Capaldi
• 18:30
  up to that with a bit of Ivy so that I'm sure Michelle Gomez
• 18:33
  would have loved to have tied him up to a pole.
• 18:35
  That was her idea, I believe. You know, probably that's my
• 18:39
  other ass favorite. You know, Android Invasion, yes,
• 18:43
  effectively seduced him. With the Android invasion when I
• 18:46
  took him to Didcot. So anything with this.
• 18:49
  I don't think many couples could actually claim that.
• 18:51
  I think you're probably you stand alone on that one you.
• 18:54
  Didn't seduce your partner with the Android invasion.
• 18:56
  Not with the Android invasion, no.
• 18:58
  No. What was your technique?
• 19:01
  Well, it certainly wasn't Doctor Who, that's for sure.
• 19:03
  Unfortunately not a fan, no. So when when we first met on our
• 19:07
  first on our very first date which was many many years ago, I
• 19:12
  of course being the usual stop sure that I am, if I can say
• 19:16
  that on the podcast. Have you heard this book?
• 19:19
  Yeah, that's true. That's true enough.
• 19:21
  So of course I had to drop in Doctor Who because, you know,
• 19:24
  it's part of my life. It's best of who I am early.
• 19:28
  I Exactly, Yeah. Before you come round and see
• 19:30
  all the VHSS as were in those days, and the books and the
• 19:34
  magazines and everything else. Yeah.
• 19:37
  Now he didn't tell me at the time, but his reaction in the
• 19:39
  back of his mind was, oh God, that was the only programme
• 19:42
  growing up that he absolutely hated.
• 19:46
  He smiled nicely on our first date and didn't kind of profess
• 19:49
  to be a big fan or anything but. Well, I mean, look at you, Of
• 19:53
  course. He smiled and nodded.
• 19:54
  You know. Oh, you put up with it, Joe.
• 19:57
  Sorry. Go on, please continue.
• 19:59
  No, no, that's end of the end of the story.
• 20:01
  So yeah, not a big fan. He watches all the new stuff.
• 20:04
  So we watched that together. I've tried a few classics, but
• 20:08
  yeah, they don't go down quite so well, so that tends to be my,
• 20:11
  my, my solo watching. Come on, what did you choose
• 20:14
  because choosing that first classic?
• 20:17
  For a non fan, tattoos is the very first.
• 20:19
  That's a really good question. I usually put on remembrance,
• 20:22
  You know, that goes down pretty well.
• 20:24
  I think it actually might have been Carnival of Monsters.
• 20:27
  Oh, what were you thinking? That opens up with them wobbling
• 20:30
  that miniscope out and those terrible masks, yeah, and I
• 20:35
  think the Aztecs was quite quick behind that as well.
• 20:38
  So what I was thinking in those days of trying to put an old
• 20:41
  black and white with a terrible back, it's.
• 20:44
  Just like a story of Lime Grove. Oh, I know, but I love that
• 20:48
  story. Oh no, me too.
• 20:49
  It's absolutely glorious. But.
• 20:51
  Like when you're choosing time for a non fan?
• 20:54
  Yeah, yeah. You've got to think about
• 20:55
  choices. I was always like what looks.
• 20:57
  The best you know, like. So with the resurrection of
• 21:01
  Daleks, went now quite well with one of my partners.
• 21:04
  Yeah. No, no.
• 21:05
  I don't like it now, but it's bit bit empty.
• 21:09
  A bit empty. I did a commentary on that the
• 21:11
  other week. You know, the fella loathed him.
• 21:13
  He went to town to pull in that one to pass.
• 21:15
  So if anyone likes that, please avoid that episode that's coming
• 21:18
  out soon, yeah? Logicals aplenty And just like,
• 21:23
  unnecessarily violent? Yes.
• 21:26
  Yeah, I think Saywood was relishing It's a little bit too
• 21:29
  much, wasn't he? He was starting his downward,
• 21:31
  downward descent into madness. Yeah.
• 21:35
  And never look back. Absolutely.
• 21:37
  Maybe he read the Veritas. Maybe he did.
• 21:41
  Good segue, Joe. He knows.
• 21:43
  He knows none of us are real Well.
• 21:45
  The trouble was, this was the first time I've watched this
• 21:47
  where I was like. Fuck me, What if this was?
• 21:49
  Real. What if I've lived my whole life
• 21:52
  as this weird projection as a it's it's clever, isn't that?
• 21:56
  It's good. Did you guess the twist when you
• 21:59
  you. No.
• 22:00
  No. I can't imagine many people
• 22:01
  would have guessed it. I mean, I I did not see it
• 22:04
  coming. I mean, some things that we talk
• 22:05
  about here are really obvious. Like, I don't think anybody was
• 22:08
  surprised it was missing in the vault.
• 22:10
  I think we all knew that. But, you know, and again, Muffet
• 22:13
  gets criticized for that, but I don't think he was necessarily
• 22:15
  trying to keep that as a big mystery.
• 22:18
  It was so obvious. So I don't think that was a
• 22:20
  clever, but there's so many clever twists in this episode
• 22:23
  that yeah, should we get into it?
• 22:26
  Well, why do you count us in? I will indeed, Then so let me
• 22:31
  turn the episode on. Because my computer's gone to
• 22:33
  sleep. Because we've already been
• 22:35
  talking for so long. Anybody who's going to be
• 22:38
  watching along with us, I don't know if anyone does that.
• 22:40
  You know, I think people just listen to the episodes.
• 22:42
  But your episode will start with a clip from Oxygen.
• 22:45
  You might get very confused as to where what you're watching.
• 22:49
  That's a great episode as well. It is an excellent excellent,
• 22:51
  isn't it? God, really good.
• 22:54
  OK, so we'll start in 321 and play.
• 23:00
  All right, here we go. So here we are previously.
• 23:04
  So what do you think about the Doctor being blind for these
• 23:06
  couple of episodes? I think it's a dangerous path to
• 23:10
  tread. They they tread it quite lightly
• 23:15
  here and I don't think it ever stumbles into anything
• 23:18
  offensive. However, I'm not blind, so I'd
• 23:21
  be interested to hear somebody else's perspective on that.
• 23:24
  That is, no. I think that's a really good
• 23:26
  point, I think, But the things I like about it are the fact he
• 23:29
  was blinding oxygen we don't get out of with a magic solution,
• 23:33
  which come on, we probably all thought watching oxygen, he's
• 23:36
  going to go back to the TARDIS wave magic wand and he's
• 23:38
  recovered. So I think that's good.
• 23:40
  It lasts for a couple of episodes, which is good.
• 23:44
  It becomes the focal point of the next episode, which is good.
• 23:47
  But I think what they don't ever really do, because it was
• 23:49
  probably a plot point too far, is to really kind of find no
• 23:54
  reason for him being blind. Yes, he's slightly at a
• 23:57
  disadvantage in this episode and a couple of great set pieces
• 24:00
  when the monks attack him, but they don't exploit it, really,
• 24:05
  do they? And was it an opportunity missed
• 24:07
  a little bit? Well, what you said just there,
• 24:10
  ultimately he does get his sight back through, you know, magical
• 24:14
  powers. And that's the bit where I'm
• 24:16
  like, you know, like, yeah, that would be lovely if that happened
• 24:19
  in real life, but well, yes, you know, but it's the monks.
• 24:23
  It it? Yes, it is the works.
• 24:25
  Do you know what? Did you see that fabulous castle
• 24:27
  then as he was going across the water?
• 24:29
  It's such a beautiful this is Daniel Netheim, so I think this
• 24:35
  is his third or fourth four episodes.
• 24:37
  He does. He wants to do shop, so he did
• 24:40
  Saigon Invasion Inversion from the previous series and he did
• 24:43
  this one and then Pyramid at the end of the world.
• 24:46
  Yeah, that's some solid imagery in all of those.
• 24:49
  Beautiful. Yeah, really, really good.
• 24:51
  Oh, is she? Michelle Gomez?
• 24:54
  Can't watch her without smiling. She is just to me.
• 24:58
  I mean, I grew up on Delgado, but I think Michelle Gomez takes
• 25:02
  the, takes the, the. Best master.
• 25:05
  See, I just had this comment. I did the Sea Devils earlier in
• 25:08
  the week and I said. Delgado was my favorite.
• 25:11
  He is still my favorite. I think she is.
• 25:13
  He is superb. I think the advantage that
• 25:15
  Michelle Gomez has got is that we see both sides of her.
• 25:19
  So Delgado is always the suave villain.
• 25:22
  We don't see Missy gets an arc, she gets the redemption arc, and
• 25:27
  she plays it. It's the only time this has
• 25:29
  happened, isn't it? It's the only time we've seen
• 25:33
  any sort of conflict, any sort of resolution as well with that.
• 25:37
  I mean, it's funny, you're talking about the Sea Devils,
• 25:39
  because of course, in the Sea Devils, the Master tends to the
• 25:42
  Doctor that, oh, you know, he's reformed and please come back
• 25:45
  and have a conversation with and he plays it beautifully.
• 25:48
  But of course he's he's lying. And the Doctor walks out and the
• 25:51
  Master does his stereotypical Master laugh.
• 25:55
  But Michelle Gomez is actually being real.
• 25:58
  She is. She is seeking redemption.
• 25:59
  So she gets that opportunity to play.
• 26:01
  I would have loved to see Roger Delgado really play that or have
• 26:04
  the opportunity to play that side of the master to show the
• 26:08
  other side of the coin. And, you know, possibly we would
• 26:10
  have got that if, you know, he'd been fortunate enough to to be
• 26:14
  around for his final story. Because she's so vicious,
• 26:18
  though, at times, like when she kills Osgood.
• 26:20
  Or oh God, the pit where she pushes Clara down that hole.
• 26:24
  Like because she's so unpredictable, we're never quite
• 26:27
  sure if she's playing him or not until that last two parter.
• 26:31
  And then we we. Well, although there's a scene
• 26:34
  later on in the season as well where she's got tears in her
• 26:36
  eyes. Yeah.
• 26:37
  Yes, there is Etrus of light. Yeah, which is frankly the best
• 26:41
  scene in the Etrus of Light. But that's for another day.
• 26:43
  That one. Yeah, oh, what's happened?
• 26:45
  The festive season, The title sequences here.
• 26:47
  I've totally already talked over, talked over the opening.
• 26:51
  Oh, this music. Yes.
• 26:54
  It's not my favorite rendition of those two themes.
• 26:56
  It's not my favorite. It's grown on me.
• 26:59
  But yeah, I can't say it's my favorite music.
• 27:02
  I love the graphics. I think the graphics are very
• 27:04
  clever. But yeah, the music is a little
• 27:07
  bit chimney, isn't it? I I'll say this, I do think both
• 27:12
  the music and the titles improved in the next era.
• 27:24
  Give give me Murray Gold I. I skipped over talking about
• 27:28
  chippers earlier while we were talking about showrunners.
• 27:30
  You did. I thought it was very touchful.
• 27:32
  I'm not a hater by any means, but yeah, I think Stephen
• 27:36
  Moffett knocked him into a cocktail, personally.
• 27:40
  Whatever. I thought that was Alexander
• 27:42
  Siddique from DS9. I'm going.
• 27:44
  I think that's quite an. I think that's quite an
• 27:45
  understandable. I would know this.
• 27:49
  I'm a massive this knowing fan. I would know if he'd been in
• 27:51
  Doctor Who and he's like. He's to the point where he's
• 27:53
  looking on Wikipedia. I'm just waiting for the penny
• 27:55
  to drop. You know, you said earlier about
• 27:59
  the dealing with the blindness, Matt Lucas.
• 28:05
  Somehow because the jokes about him having to tell the doctor
• 28:09
  what's happening in front of them, they could be offensive.
• 28:13
  If that was played in a particular way, they could be
• 28:15
  very offensive. But he's so he just judges it
• 28:21
  perfectly. And you know what I was thinking
• 28:24
  watching this back? I was so pleased that it's Matt
• 28:28
  Lucas that does that role. And it's not Bill because Bill
• 28:32
  would have played it completely differently and then possibly
• 28:36
  reduced her strength and she would have been seen as the
• 28:40
  archetypal companion explaining things to the Doctor.
• 28:43
  I think because Matt's got that element of Hume on comedy, he
• 28:46
  gets away with it. What you get with the Pope?
• 28:50
  Oh, well, I believe that could be Mr. Costanello, whatever his
• 28:53
  name is from turn left. No, it's the Pope, Joe.
• 28:56
  It's the Pope. You're crying out loud.
• 29:00
  I kiss you all over with your hair.
• 29:02
  Or Flame Riots. Now, now this is unique, I
• 29:07
  think. I can't think of another Doctor
• 29:09
  Who story where we've kind of dealt so directly with real
• 29:14
  religion. We're not in.
• 29:16
  We're not. We're not got space religion.
• 29:18
  We've not got downs and sevens up in Magloss.
• 29:21
  We're not. It's not a parable.
• 29:22
  I can't think of anything else that just so directly.
• 29:26
  And I believe they actually had to seek permission from the
• 29:28
  Vatican to include Pope in this. Really.
• 29:31
  Yeah. We're going to have a sequence
• 29:34
  with a lesbian date and the Pope's going to sort of barge in
• 29:38
  on it. Is that all right?
• 29:39
  And they went go for it. I don't think though the Pope or
• 29:44
  religion is undermined in this at all.
• 29:46
  I think he treats it very respectfully.
• 29:49
  I think he no RTD will wear his colours on his sleeve and be
• 29:54
  quite anti religious, but then he never actually dealt with it
• 29:57
  as directly as actually having a figurehead like the Pope in this
• 30:01
  episode. But I I don't think Stephen
• 30:03
  Moffitt undermines or subverts or takes a Mickey at all out of
• 30:08
  religion or the Catholic faith. But you're right.
• 30:11
  That's. But then that scene, but that
• 30:13
  scenes not undermining the Pope, it's.
• 30:15
  What? And none of them are real.
• 30:17
  Let's remember that. So, like, they could just go.
• 30:22
  This is just a random series of numbers we're watching rather
• 30:25
  than actual people. Now.
• 30:28
  Now those flashes we've just seen there to to establish that
• 30:31
  the suicides are real. Now that's much but much better
• 30:34
  than the waters of Mars when we get the real slow.
• 30:38
  Are you kidding me? I love the melodrama of that
• 30:41
  the, but by the 10th time of doing it, it's like, OK, we're
• 30:45
  we're kind of getting the point now.
• 30:46
  I love the waters of Mars, I have to say.
• 30:48
  That's that sort of series of flashes there and and I think if
• 30:51
  you pause it, there's some graphic images there, very
• 30:53
  graphic. It reminds me of like a prime
• 30:56
  time ITV police drama. That's the sort of thing they
• 30:59
  would do there and actually do, you know, bringing in the
• 31:02
  Vatican. And all of that stuff down in
• 31:04
  the vault and all that. That gave me a real What was
• 31:07
  that series of books called? Dan Brown?
• 31:09
  Da Vinci. Thank you very much.
• 31:10
  It really reminded me of those movies.
• 31:13
  Yeah, I think there is. Oh God, those movies are
• 31:15
  terrible. Awful, I know.
• 31:16
  I remember we were the climax, that one where he's on that
• 31:19
  helicopter over Rome. Oh God, it was terrible.
• 31:23
  I do remember we we were in London for a work thing.
• 31:26
  We we went to see Inferno. I was desperately hoping it was
• 31:29
  a southern part adventure with Prime and instead we got a damn.
• 31:33
  Oh God, it was painful. I think I fell asleep in that
• 31:37
  one. Yeah.
• 31:38
  Oh yeah, for sure. Now, can I make a criticism?
• 31:42
  And it's probably going to be my only criticism in the whole
• 31:45
  episode, which I do think is an out and out classic.
• 31:49
  I don't know if this sequence where the Pope comes in lands.
• 31:54
  I think it's supposed to be a riot and absolutely hilarious.
• 31:57
  She's. There with a girl.
• 31:59
  Sorry, I find it hilarious. I was just like going, this
• 32:02
  ain't working and I can't figure out why.
• 32:04
  And I done wasn't sure if it was the direction.
• 32:06
  I wasn't sure if it was the performances.
• 32:07
  I wasn't sure if it was the right in.
• 32:09
  But for me, I wasn't laughing. So I was like, that's that's
• 32:12
  when I know comedy is not working for me.
• 32:14
  Oh yeah, absolutely landed for me.
• 32:15
  I thought it was. Yeah, I thought it was very
• 32:18
  funny. Whereas Nah, doll go in, you
• 32:21
  know when he's doing the lines going.
• 32:22
  Oh yeah, it's it's a load of people coming towards us, you
• 32:26
  know? Oh, that was making me.
• 32:28
  Laugh. Oh, there's a strange light
• 32:29
  bending around the corridor. We don't see her again, do Oh
• 32:33
  no. We see her again in the next
• 32:35
  episode, The day. Yeah, Penny.
• 32:38
  Does does it all go wrong in that one as well or?
• 32:40
  Does it go right? No, I think it goes right.
• 32:42
  Do we see her again? Oh, you got me questioning now,
• 32:44
  Jen. I don't think we do.
• 32:45
  Actually, I don't think we do. I mean, she ends up with that
• 32:49
  puddle at the end of the season, didn't she?
• 32:50
  Heather. Yeah, that's what Heather.
• 32:52
  Sorry. Yeah, well, that's what she is,
• 32:55
  effectively. You're being puddles to Joe.
• 32:57
  Come on, I'm so sorry. Yeah, I've never met a puddle I
• 33:00
  liked. If I'm honest, usually cars come
• 33:02
  past and throw them over me. I've been serious.
• 33:06
  I love this line that Pearl Mark has just said and she says to to
• 33:10
  Penny this is absolutely nothing to feel guilty about because
• 33:13
  it's played completely straight calm.
• 33:16
  Quite obviously it's then punctured by the Pope coming in
• 33:19
  which but I just think for a Doctor Who companion to turn
• 33:23
  around to the same sex part and say this is absolutely nothing
• 33:27
  to feel guilty about, that's always lovely.
• 33:30
  God, we've we've we've moved forward.
• 33:32
  There's a long way to go, but. Well, I don't know.
• 33:34
  I've moved forward a long way. I thought when they showed that
• 33:38
  sequence in Praxayas with the two guys kissing in the TARDIS
• 33:41
  and that very mature relationship that they had, I
• 33:44
  thought, well, I think we might be there, you know, if they
• 33:47
  could just do more of this. Yes, yeah.
• 33:51
  There's certainly this, the treatment of same sex dating
• 33:54
  couples of, you know, in Doctor Who.
• 33:57
  It's just got better and better. But I'm with Rusty Davis coming
• 34:00
  back. It's just going to get better
• 34:01
  again. Oh, absolutely.
• 34:02
  Yeah, I think so. Oh, this TARDIS console is so
• 34:05
  gorgeous. I love this TARDIS.
• 34:08
  I know. It's by far, I think, the best
• 34:12
  of the new series. There's just so many nooks and
• 34:15
  crannies to go and shoot in, isn't it?
• 34:17
  I think all of Michael Pickword's designs are just
• 34:20
  beautiful. I mean, you could freeze frame
• 34:22
  some of these shots and I'd have them framed on the wall.
• 34:25
  I mean, they're. Beautiful.
• 34:27
  He didn't do that dreadful glass and Chrome one, did he, That
• 34:29
  Matt Smith had in his first season?
• 34:31
  I don't. Think so?
• 34:33
  You can tell. You can tell, yeah, this is this
• 34:35
  is beautiful. But I love the fact that Bill
• 34:38
  burst into TARDIS to tell the Doctor off.
• 34:41
  There's all the Vatican officials stood around.
• 34:43
  She completely ignores them. She just goes for him.
• 34:46
  The the fella that Mayavra thought was that his other city?
• 34:49
  He plays that role with remarkable dignity.
• 34:52
  He's just a bit part character in this.
• 34:54
  Yeah. Again, yeah, absolutely.
• 34:55
  But again, that's taking the kind of religious faith
• 34:58
  seriously that Moffatt's doing, because I think if he'd been
• 35:01
  played for laughs at all or being a bit a foolish, I think
• 35:05
  it would have undermined it. So you're right.
• 35:08
  Why have not often got to confession?
• 35:10
  I just think that's it's lovely and this has just played so well
• 35:14
  got Capaldi so gives a master class.
• 35:16
  Doesn't it and? Well, he's got sunglasses on.
• 35:18
  He still manages to convey all that emotion, absolutely.
• 35:21
  But then intercutting that with these sequences where he's
• 35:24
  supposed to be executed missing, and I was never convinced he was
• 35:26
  going to kill her, obviously. No, no, no, no.
• 35:30
  We're setting up the vault. And this was great, because this
• 35:32
  explained what where the hell Nardol came from.
• 35:35
  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
• 35:37
  This is Nardol's first. Yeah, he's come back from the
• 35:39
  doctrine. River Song.
• 35:40
  I've been on Dorillium and obviously this is the first
• 35:44
  encounter with Nardol since Wedding of River Song.
• 35:47
  But to trust the audience to wait for those answers, Because
• 35:50
  obviously he's not he. He he's just pops back in the
• 35:53
  pilot, doesn't he? After the husband, River Song.
• 35:56
  But he's he's stuck in that suit in the pilot, isn't he?
• 36:00
  Yeah, I think, yeah. It definitely requires multiple
• 36:02
  viewings, doesn't it, to piece it all together.
• 36:05
  When you do, it's lovely. But but you're right, does it
• 36:07
  expect too much of A casual audience?
• 36:10
  Maybe. Possibly.
• 36:11
  Well, watch every episode, then stop being casual.
• 36:14
  Exactly What's wrong with people crying out loud?
• 36:16
  Actually, do you know what I was like?
• 36:18
  I'd forgotten that was not a doll.
• 36:20
  And the way he was delivering the, the dialogue with such
• 36:22
  gravity, I was like, who is that?
• 36:24
  And then I got, I got the voice straight away.
• 36:26
  The minute was like, bugger me, he could do proper.
• 36:29
  Drama, actually, now I got the voice and Minnie started
• 36:32
  speaking. He can do a proper job because I
• 36:34
  remember I sat up at the end of oxygen when when he went.
• 36:37
  You know when he really lays into the doctor for going off.
• 36:41
  Is it oxygen? It was the one before that.
• 36:43
  Anyway, it's early in the season.
• 36:44
  Your. Your misses wouldn't approve,
• 36:50
  but some of this just puts absolute my hair.
• 36:53
  Stand up on end some of this dialogue.
• 36:56
  Not, obviously, when he turns on the Doctor like that, but when
• 36:59
  when Nadal first starts speaking and you realise that he's
• 37:02
  quoting from Riversong's diary. That's beautiful.
• 37:06
  Beautiful. Look at that shot there.
• 37:08
  The window with the the moon. It is feature film stuff.
• 37:13
  It really is. Yeah.
• 37:15
  And and I think sort of from the beginning of Kabul, his time
• 37:19
  when they got Ben Wheelie into deep breath, it's been feature
• 37:24
  films since then. Yeah, completely there.
• 37:31
  We go see that I love this as well, that there is this inbuilt
• 37:34
  respect between the Doctor and Nadal, but none of it's sort of
• 37:38
  dwell upon. It's just they both understand
• 37:41
  they're there for each other. And they'll help each other and
• 37:44
  they'll also sort of ruthlessly mock each other as well.
• 37:48
  But again, we never really find out who Na Doll is or where he
• 37:52
  comes from or that species. I don't mind that.
• 37:55
  I don't mind that, but I know certain fans want to kind of
• 37:58
  tick boxes and say he's ex species and his timeline is XY
• 38:03
  and ZI just think he works. I think he's spectacular.
• 38:06
  Tell those fans. Oh, sorry.
• 38:09
  Yeah. Oh.
• 38:10
  What? Matt Lucas?
• 38:11
  Well, it shouldn't work. What you've got?
• 38:13
  Here is Peter Capaldi playing a grumpy ass doctor, Matt Lucas
• 38:17
  doing comedy speak and then this hot young talent Pearl Mackie
• 38:22
  coming in and you. So three very disparate
• 38:25
  performances and you bring them together and it's fucking gold.
• 38:28
  Do you know what I'd watch season after season of them?
• 38:31
  It's just such a shame we only got one year off them.
• 38:34
  I don't know how many of these hamsters you've listened to, but
• 38:36
  I really have an issue with a lot of Moffett's companions.
• 38:40
  I have no issues at all with what he does in season 10.
• 38:44
  It's it's perfect for me because it is.
• 38:46
  She and I don't wish to denigrate the character at all
• 38:49
  in this. But the character, absolutely
• 38:50
  not the not the performer, because Pearl Mackie is superb,
• 38:55
  but she is quite a back to basics companion isn't she?
• 38:57
  She hasn't got. I think Moffett did overdo it
• 39:00
  with the mystery of the companion.
• 39:03
  The companion was always had to be something more than a
• 39:07
  companion, and here he jettisons all of that and Bill is just a
• 39:12
  regular companion and she's spectacular.
• 39:16
  And she feels amazing. She feels contemporary and sort
• 39:19
  of. I'm going to say a word that's
• 39:20
  going to make me sound very old hip.
• 39:23
  Without even trying. And it's because it's Pearl
• 39:25
  Mackie and she's got a bit of an edge to it.
• 39:27
  I'm not sure it's in the Ryan, it's just how she delivers it
• 39:30
  all. She just feels very
• 39:31
  contemporary. Do you know what?
• 39:32
  You've got performers here that just you're talking about
• 39:35
  delivery. And we're back now to Capaldi
• 39:37
  and Michelle Gomez. I mean, we were so lucky to have
• 39:41
  people of this calibre. I mean, they are talking about
• 39:44
  people that know how to deliver a line.
• 39:47
  I just they're just spectacular. Spectacular.
• 39:51
  And I'm going to ask you a question which might seem a
• 39:53
  little unfair, but I want to hear your take on it, because
• 39:56
  obviously this wasn't with this general audience, this wasn't
• 39:59
  the most popular era of Doctor Who, and the numbers were
• 40:03
  starting to go down and a lot of people sort of pushed back from
• 40:09
  Capaldi's initial unpleasantness, so.
• 40:14
  Why? Why is this so ideal for fans?
• 40:17
  Because I think fans love this stuff.
• 40:19
  And why is it so such a turn off for the general audience?
• 40:24
  I think the clever, young, smart man that we had with certainly
• 40:29
  with talent and Matt Smith, and you know, they appealed to a lot
• 40:33
  of the audience. You don't get the same with
• 40:36
  Capaldi. He's not a he's not a sex symbol
• 40:38
  to anybody, not in the same way that those two were certainly
• 40:43
  talent. But I just think he's acting.
• 40:48
  I think, I mean, I love the other two, don't get me wrong,
• 40:50
  but I think Capaldi's acting, He just underplays the lines.
• 40:55
  I mean, we missed one earlier when we were talking, which just
• 40:58
  I thought was absolutely beautiful.
• 40:59
  When him and Matt Luke are leaving the TARDIS, and I think
• 41:03
  Matt Luke says something like, you know, you're an idiot and
• 41:06
  Capaldi walks out and just smiles at him, says everybody
• 41:09
  knows that the way he plays, that you think.
• 41:12
  As much as I love Tennant, my God, he would have laboured that
• 41:14
  point and he would have turned it into a big dramatic moment.
• 41:17
  But Capaldi is so calm and measured and light with it.
• 41:21
  It's just beautiful. And it's weird enough watching
• 41:24
  this whole era. Yeah, and obviously I have
• 41:26
  issues with the writing because it's not my favorite, but I
• 41:29
  always had Capaldi to watch and my eye was always drawn to him.
• 41:33
  So no matter what what was going on in the episode, I knew I was
• 41:36
  going to have a brilliant performance to watch and I don't
• 41:39
  think he ever let me down. I was very pleased after series
• 41:43
  nine that they lightened him up because Nine got heavy, really
• 41:48
  heavy towards the end. Did get very heavy.
• 41:50
  Yeah. I mean, I rewatched.
• 41:51
  Hang on, get it right way round. Oh, Ben's heaven sent.
• 41:55
  I always get those two muddled up.
• 41:57
  The finale, let's just say of season nine.
• 42:00
  Oh my God, that's dark at times. If you actually listen to the
• 42:03
  lines, I must. I'll admit I was blubbing a
• 42:05
  little bit. But some of the lines about
• 42:08
  Clara's death are just the heartbreak.
• 42:10
  But it's very, very. It's dark in a way that's quite
• 42:14
  almost depressing in in the next episode in Husbands of River
• 42:19
  Soul, when he's there in the snow, laughing his head off.
• 42:21
  I was like, oh, thank God, you know, he's having fun.
• 42:26
  Again, but everything in season 10 works from being at Saint
• 42:28
  Luke's University. Being the lecturer, everything
• 42:31
  just works for him. Yeah, and that was such a
• 42:34
  brilliant, you know what, I'm actually convinced.
• 42:36
  Had Series 10 been Series 8, this whole run would have been
• 42:40
  very different in terms of the public perception of it.
• 42:44
  If we'd have started Series 8 with Pearl Mackie Sweet
• 42:49
  Innocence walking into that study set, yes, I think that the
• 42:54
  audience would have grabbed hold of it.
• 42:56
  But you know, certainly. But.
• 42:58
  Then I like. The I like the arc of AM IA
• 43:00
  Goodman and I think that works and it does play out well over
• 43:03
  the series as well seeded. And it ends up, no, I'm just a
• 43:06
  madman in a box at the end, and I think that is a good.
• 43:10
  I think that arc works back to the old Colin Baker arguments
• 43:13
  again, isn't it? You start with the doctors
• 43:14
  unpleasant, and then you soften him over time.
• 43:17
  And that's that's kind of what we got here.
• 43:19
  I yeah, I, you know, a little secret that eight is actually my
• 43:23
  favorite Moffett season. I think 8 is sublime, but I
• 43:27
  recognize that it's not a popular opinion.
• 43:29
  I think 8 got a hell of a lot going for it right here.
• 43:33
  This is, this is Moffett doing his Agatha Christie here.
• 43:35
  So we mentioned the e-mail that has been sent to CERN.
• 43:40
  You have a copy of the Veritas. And that's our get out clause at
• 43:44
  the end of the episode, isn't it?
• 43:45
  Is that he can listen to that and then he can.
• 43:47
  Yeah, Clever. It is.
• 43:50
  It's very clever. It's a very smart script, this
• 43:52
  one. And like I say, given the fact
• 43:55
  that his eye was off the ball, he had personal issues.
• 43:59
  And was away from scripting duties for quite a while of this
• 44:02
  to turn in scripts like this. He's just, he's a very smart man
• 44:06
  when he's on it. I think sometimes you can you
• 44:09
  can. No, I I agree with that.
• 44:11
  Sometimes you can turn pain into creative endeavours though, you
• 44:15
  know. Yeah.
• 44:15
  No, absolutely. And I I'm actually convinced
• 44:18
  very often. The mafia scripts were my least
• 44:20
  favorite of his seasons in season 10.
• 44:23
  The pilot extremists well enough, a Time Doctor force.
• 44:26
  They're all my favourites of that year, so I think, I think
• 44:30
  he went out on a on a. Real.
• 44:31
  Oh, he absolutely went on a high.
• 44:33
  Yeah, not sure. Maybe twice upon a time.
• 44:37
  If he'd gone out at 9:00. No.
• 44:39
  I like Twice Upon a Time. I I think it's.
• 44:41
  I think it's quite maligned. Unfairly maligned.
• 44:45
  Oh, well, I haven't done that one yet, you know, Maybe.
• 44:47
  You come on, tell me why That one's great.
• 44:48
  Well. I'll tell you why.
• 44:49
  That's good. Yeah.
• 44:50
  OK, We'll have a battle that time this is.
• 44:52
  This ain't going to be a battle because we both love this.
• 44:55
  There was a great line there about a little while back about
• 44:58
  why would scientists be asking for prayers?
• 45:01
  So we're seeding in this. Very chilling scene that's
• 45:05
  coming up. It's dark.
• 45:07
  I love. I like dark, So yeah, I like
• 45:10
  dark as well. And the visuals are very dark.
• 45:14
  I mean, it's just, Christ, I think this goes out on a
• 45:18
  Saturday night, You know, it's so.
• 45:21
  So, divorced from everything else around, it isn't it in
• 45:24
  terms of what else is on TV now on a Saturday night.
• 45:26
  But this is just this demands an audience to take note and listen
• 45:31
  and watch on. This scene with Pearland and
• 45:34
  Sorry, sorry to interrupt you Joe.
• 45:36
  This scene is superb. This is really when Nardo takes
• 45:40
  off his glasses and suddenly he's really serious and he plays
• 45:44
  it really well. I I do fall for his stake.
• 45:47
  He makes me laugh. He always makes me laugh when he
• 45:49
  tends to. But this second bear, I must
• 45:51
  admit I did stop first time around.
• 45:53
  The thing Oh my God, is there something more than our doll
• 45:56
  that we don't know about? Well, it's the fact that he does
• 45:59
  it all so seriously. And you're like, Oh my God.
• 46:01
  And then he goes, all right, Bill, OK.
• 46:03
  And then he goes when he sees the he.
• 46:07
  Calls a baby doll. All right, baby doll.
• 46:09
  Yeah. Oh, it's so great.
• 46:12
  I mean, like, Morphy can write that stuff in his sleep.
• 46:14
  He's been doing comedy stick like that way back as far as
• 46:17
  Press Gang. But he sort of refined it.
• 46:20
  Now I. Think yeah, I mean, this is,
• 46:22
  yeah, this is the epitome of it, isn't it?
• 46:24
  So is this. Oh, that's right.
• 46:26
  So we're seeing all of these windows popping up everywhere,
• 46:29
  aren't we? And it's not until they actually
• 46:31
  popped through one of them to the projector that we realised
• 46:33
  what this is all about. So this was the point in the
• 46:35
  episode where I'm going. What is happening when I first
• 46:37
  watched it, yes. Oh yeah, at this point I think
• 46:39
  you've still as a as a first time watch through.
• 46:42
  You've absolutely no idea what's going on at this point.
• 46:46
  You know what you said earlier about sort of how dark the
• 46:48
  visuals are and how dark the themes are.
• 46:51
  That's my answer to why I think some of the audience fell away
• 46:54
  because I I think it's it's it's a better piece of work for it
• 47:00
  and it has sort of more re watchability for it, for being
• 47:03
  darker and a bit more interesting.
• 47:06
  But like, you go back to the Rusty Davis era, a lot of it
• 47:08
  looked very pretty, you know, it's a sort of Big Brother
• 47:12
  colours of fun and fun and your screen, there's lots of lots of
• 47:15
  very silly performances and jokes and things, something that
• 47:19
  anyone could just put on and go, oh OK, that was a bit of fun.
• 47:21
  I really enjoyed that. It's it's so weird because it's
• 47:25
  Who do you please? Where would you schedule this,
• 47:28
  Joe? Where would you put this on a
• 47:29
  what night would this go out on? Oxygen and extremists
• 47:33
  back-to-back? Oxygen is extremely dark as
• 47:36
  well. I'd put maybe between 8:00 and
• 47:41
  9:00 responsibly. Sunday probably, actually.
• 47:47
  Sunday's a bit too cosy. Well, we tried it.
• 47:55
  I don't think this would work on a Sunday.
• 47:56
  I don't know it's it's a tough. One, I like you, when we're back
• 48:01
  to the Missy scene now and like you first time round, you are
• 48:05
  thinking is she putting the wool over his eyes?
• 48:08
  Is she play acting now? You watch it back in, you know
• 48:12
  and rewatch and you know that she is actually being contrite
• 48:15
  and she's being honest. I think her performance is
• 48:18
  amazing. You are first time round you are
• 48:21
  thinking, oh, it's the old master she's going to.
• 48:24
  I'll call in a minute. And yes, she doesn't die here,
• 48:27
  but actually what she's saying to him is she's speaking from
• 48:30
  her heart. Oh Gee, did you hear what he
• 48:32
  said there of the Prydonian chapter?
• 48:36
  Oh, come on, you little fan heart.
• 48:38
  Skip to be. My fan.
• 48:40
  I did well. I'm thinking about that audience
• 48:42
  as well. Gary, What's he talking about?
• 48:45
  What does it matter? No, I think references like that
• 48:47
  don't matter. I think stuff like hell bent
• 48:50
  when we're down in the Matrix vaults and there's all that
• 48:52
  techno Babble going on about Gallifrey.
• 48:54
  I think people. Rely on and yeah, what the hell
• 48:57
  is all this, you know? Oh, this is great.
• 49:00
  They just pop into the Pentagon. And we haven't actually seen the
• 49:03
  projector room at this point. So they've gone straight from
• 49:05
  the Vatican into the Pentagon. So it's one of those episodes
• 49:09
  where if you rewatch it, all of it, it's just seems even more
• 49:13
  clever. Yeah.
• 49:14
  Oh yeah, absolutely. At this point, I was tearing my
• 49:16
  hair out going, well, why are we in the Pentagon now?
• 49:18
  What's happening? What is going on?
• 49:21
  Look at that. I'm getting the girl who waited
• 49:24
  vibes from this. Room.
• 49:25
  Very much so, but it's the stark white.
• 49:28
  It's such a contrast to everything else we've had in the
• 49:30
  episode so far. We've suddenly got this
• 49:32
  brilliantly white room and now we're heading into stern and
• 49:38
  these sequences are unforgettable.
• 49:43
  It's the way the fella is really jovial.
• 49:46
  Yes, in that way where you kind of know.
• 49:50
  Something's wrong. Yeah.
• 49:52
  Like I I did two years of volunteer work with mines and
• 49:58
  they say that when people are suicidal, if they tell you about
• 50:02
  it, 99% of the time it won't happen.
• 50:07
  OK, it's a cry for help. But if suddenly you see a change
• 50:10
  in somebody's personality, a positive change where they've
• 50:14
  been very depressed, that could be a sign that they have come to
• 50:18
  a decision to end their lives. So the way this all plays out,
• 50:20
  I'm like, oh, he's done a bit of research here because this is,
• 50:23
  this feels real. Yeah, and I think people that
• 50:26
  haven't had that experience. Saw that in that episode as
• 50:31
  being a weakness because they expected them to all be very
• 50:34
  maudlin and melodramatic, and I'm ending my life.
• 50:37
  So they didn't quite see the nuance there that you're picking
• 50:40
  up. And I think you're absolutely
• 50:41
  right. I completely agree with your
• 50:43
  interpretation there. Well, I think it's it's cleverer
• 50:46
  than that because you've got some people that are celebrating
• 50:48
  and you are other people that look terrified.
• 50:51
  There's a real mix of people in that room and that's that is
• 50:54
  what reaction you would have to learning that you're not real.
• 50:58
  Absolutely, I'd be going. I've done 600 fucking episodes
• 51:02
  of podcast like for nothing. Come on now.
• 51:07
  I did 6000 steps today. Why did I do those?
• 51:11
  What's what Donna says, isn't it?
• 51:12
  I've been dieting. Do you remember that's such?
• 51:16
  A funny line. Oh, I can't wait to see her
• 51:19
  again. Oh.
• 51:19
  He writes some singers. Why do these comedians come on
• 51:26
  Doctor Who and just get it so right?
• 51:29
  I mean we have been spoilt with I don't think there's it's never
• 51:32
  not worked I don't think I thought, I thought Bradley
• 51:36
  Walsh. I don't.
• 51:37
  Think it has. Brilliantly dramatic.
• 51:39
  Oh, I'd agree. Yeah.
• 51:41
  I think he plays incredibly naturalistically.
• 51:43
  I think he, Yeah. You remember that bit in Demons
• 51:47
  of the Punjab where he knows the fella's going to go after his
• 51:49
  death and it's the night before. It's his wedding day and he's
• 51:52
  got to give him a hug and say congratulations and he's holding
• 51:54
  back the tears. Yeah, I'm like that's the.
• 51:56
  Fella that that's on the Chase, it's.
• 52:01
  Crazy. Yeah.
• 52:02
  I mean, we have. We've been very lucky that monk
• 52:05
  makeup is really good as well. It's.
• 52:08
  Bloody frightening, isn't it? It's because they look, they
• 52:10
  look like sort of desiccated corpses come to life.
• 52:14
  They are quite horrific and I think they look best in this
• 52:17
  episode. I just look at that.
• 52:22
  Yes. Horrific, isn't it?
• 52:25
  And he's gone and he's got the laptop and he's about to start
• 52:28
  running like a Penguin with his ass on fire.
• 52:31
  I think the the risk that you have with the twist, yeah, is
• 52:36
  that the audience is going to go one or two ways.
• 52:37
  One, they'll say, God, that's so clever, like we've been cheated
• 52:41
  from the off in this episode. Or waste of an episode because
• 52:44
  nothing that it. Didn't do.
• 52:45
  Yeah, like like, yeah. But I have heard that argument
• 52:49
  of like, why do I care about these people?
• 52:51
  Because this isn't those people I'm like, yeah.
• 52:53
  But we're doing something a bit different.
• 52:55
  You you were the people that are complaining.
• 52:57
  We're always doing the same thing.
• 52:58
  And the 2nd we do something different.
• 52:59
  You're complaining, yeah? This is a this is a very
• 53:02
  different I know we talked about it earlier, and yes, Android
• 53:05
  Invasion accepted this is we're actually seeing the plumbing.
• 53:11
  Who would have thought an episode about planning would be
• 53:13
  that interesting? That woman there, with her head
• 53:16
  in her hands and the glass of wine in front of her.
• 53:19
  And they're toasting each other. Yeah.
• 53:22
  It's all sort of implication as well.
• 53:24
  It's not people sitting there slitting their wrists and things
• 53:25
  like that. And it's all it's always
• 53:28
  threatens to be comical. When we go under the table and
• 53:30
  there's those enormous dynamite there, we.
• 53:32
  Go They are a little bit TNT, a little bit Roadrunner, aren't
• 53:35
  they? But because he needs to make the
• 53:37
  point, because we don't know they're committing suicide until
• 53:40
  we see that dominant, it needs to make that point visually,
• 53:43
  very potently, and he doesn't know things.
• 53:47
  Now this is quite a nightmarish sequence.
• 53:49
  The Doctor Blind. Oh no, he's slightly got it.
• 53:53
  He's got a little bit of eyesight left, doesn't he's
• 53:56
  nicked a little bit of region energy again, which I know it's
• 53:59
  not a favorite plot device of yours, but no, because here it's
• 54:04
  just a one liner. He goes, well, I could be blind
• 54:07
  in my next regeneration. I'll deal with it all right.
• 54:09
  A test of shadows. See, that's a great line as
• 54:14
  well, which is exactly what it is.
• 54:17
  Maybe they should have called this a test of shadows.
• 54:19
  Or would that have been a that's right here maybe?
• 54:22
  Maybe. What is extremist .0?
• 54:26
  So extremist means in extremist means at the point of death.
• 54:31
  So what we're talking about here.
• 54:34
  So that's tying us back to Missy, who is, as far as they're
• 54:38
  concerned at the point of her death.
• 54:40
  And it's also the Doctor. At the end of the episode, he's
• 54:43
  also at the point of his death because this personification,
• 54:47
  this representation of the Doctor, is about to die.
• 54:51
  So it's about how you react. So then you come back to that
• 54:53
  theme about without hope, without witness, without reward,
• 54:57
  and that at the point of death, how do you respond at the point
• 55:00
  of death? It's clever, isn't it?
• 55:04
  It's very clever. Oh, he's a clever bloke.
• 55:07
  You're right. I.
• 55:07
  Keep saying clever all the way through this, but well, no, I've
• 55:10
  well, it's one of his cleverest episodes, so well deserved.
• 55:14
  That whole sequence there was so nightmarish.
• 55:16
  You're right, because we keep flashing, so we keep losing
• 55:20
  them. And then suddenly there it's a
• 55:21
  bit Angel like is it suddenly that that monks right in your
• 55:24
  face looming at you. And in fact I remember a
• 55:27
  sequence in Oxygen as well, which we see from Bill's point
• 55:30
  of view as she's losing her oxygen.
• 55:33
  They're doing some quite creative things directly at
• 55:37
  this. .0 Now this is again. Chilling Moment and and just
• 55:43
  beautifully edited this. Oh, absolutely there.
• 55:47
  There is not a slip is that very loud tap on the table.
• 55:51
  Think of a number, but if if I don't know if one thing had been
• 55:55
  off in this, what his performance bash on the table
• 56:00
  how they pace the people coming in saying the numbers because
• 56:02
  they don't initially and then suddenly everyone in the room is
• 56:05
  saying the same numbers do. You know what though, I mean?
• 56:09
  Change the subject. Go from one extreme to the
• 56:11
  other. I love the five doctors, so I'm
• 56:12
  not taking the Mickey out, but I watched it again the other day.
• 56:17
  Oh, that chess board sequence. They just, it's so poorly
• 56:21
  executed and you know, you're talking here about.
• 56:25
  How every single element of editing, the timing has got to
• 56:28
  be spot on. You compare that with something
• 56:30
  like Anthony, Amy and the Cyber Monster across.
• 56:34
  Which they just don't give a shit.
• 56:36
  They don't care about the circumference of a circle to its
• 56:40
  diameter. And then we'll just walk across
• 56:42
  there. But the application you stay
• 56:45
  here child. But then you get something like
• 56:49
  this. You know, like this is so.
• 56:51
  Yeah, spot on, Bang. And I'm really pleased.
• 56:53
  We don't actually see the Bombers going off.
• 56:55
  We just sort of fade to cut away.
• 56:57
  But when I was initially watching this, I still like, I'm
• 56:59
  like, why are they committing suicide?
• 57:01
  What is going on? I don't think we're supposed, I
• 57:02
  think we're not supposed to know.
• 57:04
  This is the point. Now they're back in the
• 57:06
  projector room, and it's only now that Nardol and Bill begin
• 57:09
  to realise it's a projector. I love twists where it's about
• 57:13
  the nature of reality, so I. Name any film where twists like
• 57:17
  that's here. What was the Matt Damon one?
• 57:20
  Was it Chester Island? Oh, yes, yes, Mount.
• 57:24
  Diamond No, that's Leonardo DiCaprio.
• 57:25
  Is it Leonardo DiCaprio? Sorry.
• 57:26
  Yeah, that's got a. That's a similar style twist.
• 57:29
  There was a pretty terrible film, but with a great twist,
• 57:33
  called Identity with John Cusack.
• 57:36
  You seen that one? Oh, I.
• 57:37
  Don't think I've seen that. And that again has a massive
• 57:39
  twist about like everything you've been seeing is not what
• 57:42
  you think you've been seeing. M Night Shyamalan pulls out this
• 57:46
  this style of twist all the time.
• 57:48
  Bless them. You're still trying it.
• 57:51
  It'll work one day. I'm wondering if Moffett is the
• 57:55
  only writer of the new series Across the Board that's clever
• 58:00
  enough to pull this sort of twist off.
• 58:04
  Yeah, it's not really RT DS thing that kind of.
• 58:08
  And Chibble just doesn't plot in this way.
• 58:10
  Chibble doesn't plot like. This far too far too.
• 58:13
  He's linear. Yeah.
• 58:14
  There you go. We said it at the same time.
• 58:18
  And it's just the way he reaches his hand out and it becomes a
• 58:21
  load of squares as well. The visual's great.
• 58:24
  And he's genuinely up. And the way he plays it, there's
• 58:27
  still a little bit of lightness, there's still a little bit of
• 58:30
  comedy, but there's enough depth there to kind of ugly your heart
• 58:34
  strings. And suddenly the whole focus of
• 58:37
  the episode about what the Veritas about shifts, and it's
• 58:40
  all about Bill and the Doctor coming to like, accepting the
• 58:47
  fact that they are not real. But we still, at this point I
• 58:50
  still wasn't completely sure So he says.
• 58:53
  Bill I'm not real and I thought is it just not all that's not
• 58:56
  real what we still I still don't think we've completely
• 58:59
  solidified what's going on here at this stage because Bill's
• 59:02
  still completely. Bill hasn't quite figured out
• 59:05
  yet she's should I shouldn't I? No that that enormous shift from
• 59:12
  being a plot of lots of disparate points to suddenly
• 59:16
  just being about our regulars and the nature of who they are
• 59:20
  and what they are. That's that's just brilliant and
• 59:24
  and the way Capaldi and is it Capaldi, Capaldi and Macky
• 59:31
  played this scene and neither one of them overplays this scene
• 59:34
  and it would have been so easy to have overplayed Tena would.
• 59:37
  Have gone to town with this. Oh, Tena's my favorite.
• 59:41
  You know, like I like a bit of melodrama, but they both
• 59:45
  underplay it, so it's kind of scarier for it.
• 59:47
  It's. Quiet.
• 59:48
  It's understated. I'm surprised they got away with
• 59:51
  that, with the president committing suicide.
• 59:57
  I suppose they they could just say again or it's not real.
• 59:59
  So, but again, I will say there's not a lot of laughs
• 1:00:07
  here. You know, I can see people
• 1:00:08
  watching this going well. Do you remember when Doctor Who
• 1:00:10
  used to be fun? Fun.
• 1:00:13
  We've had some good. I think there's been a few
• 1:00:16
  laughs in here, but you're right at this.
• 1:00:17
  Point We had a comedy yet this season, like an out and out
• 1:00:20
  grim. Have we had a robot or Sherwood
• 1:00:22
  or anything like that this season?
• 1:00:24
  I suppose the pilot is quite light.
• 1:00:26
  Yeah, it's not really. Yeah, it's not dark as such.
• 1:00:29
  Smile is not really fun. They knock, knock, thin ice,
• 1:00:33
  oxygen, definitely off. No, it's quite.
• 1:00:35
  It's quite bleak, isn't it? I think there's a nice comedy
• 1:00:38
  moment, but. I quite like thin ice that's got
• 1:00:42
  some entertaining bit. I like it just when they're
• 1:00:44
  exploring the Frost Fair and all of that.
• 1:00:46
  Yes, beautiful look. Beautiful as well.
• 1:00:50
  It's a tough, quiet and calm, and this is where we're really
• 1:00:55
  starting to know now what the plot's about, which is what, 40
• 1:00:59
  minutes into a 48 minute episode.
• 1:01:02
  But as a as a trailer as well, and we do, this is where we find
• 1:01:07
  out this is effectively a trailer for what's to come As a
• 1:01:10
  trailer, it's it's so, so I'm going to say clever again.
• 1:01:15
  God damn it. Find me another word.
• 1:01:17
  Go for it. Go for it.
• 1:01:20
  Because it's clever. Well, because we feel as if
• 1:01:23
  we've we've. A story's been taking place.
• 1:01:26
  It is. It's a jigsaw and the final
• 1:01:27
  piece is falling into place, isn't it?
• 1:01:29
  What? What it effectively is is saying
• 1:01:31
  you thought this was good. Wait to see what's coming,
• 1:01:34
  because this is just a prelude, yeah, and then we'd shift in
• 1:01:38
  different directions. This is definitely the cleverest
• 1:01:43
  of the of the three. I just think these two together,
• 1:01:47
  it's just magic. Sensational, aren't I?
• 1:01:51
  Like so much of the new series, I think has been visually
• 1:01:56
  distracting, and every now and again you get a Doctor, a
• 1:02:00
  companion where it's performatively distracting.
• 1:02:05
  Tennant and Tate do it for me as well.
• 1:02:07
  When they get, when they get their sort of quiet moments,
• 1:02:10
  these two, I'm trying to think of anyone else does.
• 1:02:14
  I would say Amy Ponder, Matt Smith.
• 1:02:18
  I wouldn't, but. I hate it Ivy Pond so much.
• 1:02:24
  Maybe you'll do one of those one day.
• 1:02:28
  Not really. I didn't mind her in seven.
• 1:02:30
  I actually, when she grows up a bit and and.
• 1:02:34
  She's got a lot of agency, but there are many reasons, and
• 1:02:39
  let's not spoil this fabulous episode with that.
• 1:02:42
  No, exactly. Let's go back to a bit of class.
• 1:02:49
  He's explaining about the the numbers now, isn't he?
• 1:02:52
  But again, this is Saturday night TV and we've had what, 3-4
• 1:02:55
  minutes of just these two actors sitting explaining the plot?
• 1:02:59
  It could be quite torturous in the hands of lesser actors,
• 1:03:02
  lesser writer, you're getting your 5 minutes of exposition
• 1:03:06
  explaining what's gone on previously, but because of the
• 1:03:10
  quality of every element here, I think it just lifts it and.
• 1:03:16
  And no, it is great. Would the kids be paying
• 1:03:19
  attention? Probably not.
• 1:03:21
  Probably not. But then you know, I've thrown
• 1:03:25
  the same audience. Sorry.
• 1:03:26
  I've thrown the same argument as something like Dark Water, which
• 1:03:28
  is essentially a ton of long scenes of two or three actors
• 1:03:32
  just talking. But then Midnight is the same
• 1:03:35
  Midnight's People. There's a 20 minute scene in
• 1:03:38
  Midnight. There is, but that's quite
• 1:03:41
  unique for RTD though, isn't it? I mean, that's a real kind of
• 1:03:44
  stand alone for him, although it's followed up by turn left.
• 1:03:46
  That's pretty damn dark too. Yeah, I think turn left.
• 1:03:50
  About as dark as we go Off blowing up London.
• 1:03:56
  Death in death in heaven. Dark water is is pretty grim.
• 1:04:01
  What did happen to all of those side men that came out of the
• 1:04:04
  graves? I'll explain later.
• 1:04:06
  Oh, thank you very much. Oh no, Bill.
• 1:04:11
  And the The thing is is because he's characterized them all so
• 1:04:15
  vividly, there's never been a hint throughout this like a
• 1:04:20
  lesser A lesser writer will give you lots of absolutely dropping.
• 1:04:23
  She tries to pick up a glass and her hand goes through it.
• 1:04:26
  Or. Something like that.
• 1:04:27
  Go and watch, sort of, I'm. Going to be a bit cruel about an
• 1:04:30
  episode in this season that Empress of Mars, where they're
• 1:04:33
  characterized so vaguely. All of them.
• 1:04:37
  That I believe that they weren't.
• 1:04:39
  Real at the end of the episode. Yeah, it feels quite set apart,
• 1:04:42
  doesn't it? Good old gay to.
• 1:04:44
  Us. He makes the the relationships
• 1:04:46
  feel real Here. He gives them funny moments.
• 1:04:48
  You know, they're characters that we like, and they never
• 1:04:51
  existed. But the dock is not shining
• 1:04:54
  here. He looks beaten.
• 1:04:55
  He looks absolutely even. He's not figured out yet what
• 1:04:59
  he's going to do and he looks beaten.
• 1:05:04
  But what I love is. Morphic's assertion that even as
• 1:05:08
  a computer program, even as a series of numbers, he will save
• 1:05:14
  the day somehow. Absolutely.
• 1:05:16
  He's he's clever enough. Yes, just great.
• 1:05:22
  It's weirdly it's such an understated hero moment because
• 1:05:25
  it's absolutely he's effectively committing suicide and just, you
• 1:05:30
  know, passing on a memo. But that is all I am.
• 1:05:33
  I got. I mean, these are just, yeah,
• 1:05:41
  all these Saturday night lines that just, I think this is just
• 1:05:44
  spectacular stuff. I take it it's your intention to
• 1:05:47
  invade the Earth? The simulations have all been
• 1:05:51
  run. Where are our partners in crime?
• 1:05:55
  The crawls. Yeah, we're ready to go.
• 1:05:59
  Good old space rhinos. I don't mind the crawls.
• 1:06:04
  You've got Zippy in there. It's the zippy out.
• 1:06:07
  The voice is a little bit too zippy.
• 1:06:08
  Ish. It makes no sense.
• 1:06:11
  Rod and he's suddenly he's twigged.
• 1:06:18
  Capaldi is twigged. He knows the way out.
• 1:06:21
  He just plays away. You can almost see the moment
• 1:06:23
  when the penny drops and he's think actually there is a way
• 1:06:26
  out of this hoist by your own petard.
• 1:06:30
  You know, I think there's nothing more terrifying than
• 1:06:32
  when Peter Capaldi smiles, you know?
• 1:06:34
  Oh yeah. Absolutely run.
• 1:06:38
  It's cadaverous. I felt the same way in the thick
• 1:06:43
  of it. Whenever Malcolm Tucker was
• 1:06:45
  happy, I was scared, Yeah. I don't know, though.
• 1:06:51
  We don't really have those moments.
• 1:06:52
  I remember in flatline when he was like, will you just let me
• 1:06:55
  have this moment? The TARDIS is tiny, you know,
• 1:07:00
  And there it goes, the smile. The smile is back.
• 1:07:04
  Uploading. And of course that's what we saw
• 1:07:07
  in the pre credits title was the doctors sat in the vault seeing
• 1:07:12
  the icon come up saying e-mail extremists and you have no idea
• 1:07:15
  what it meant at that point. Oh, I Look, the whole thing's
• 1:07:19
  the literary The program is ending, and we cut.
• 1:07:21
  Straight to reality now, don't we?
• 1:07:23
  And there and a bit of Murray go.
• 1:07:24
  I love this music. The Doctors theme here.
• 1:07:28
  It's quite nice to hear somebody talk about later, Murray
• 1:07:30
  positively, because a lot of people said they was doing sort
• 1:07:33
  of similar stuff later on, so it's nice to hear it.
• 1:07:36
  This theme is tremendous. Is it the one?
• 1:07:38
  That goes, isn't. That one, yes.
• 1:07:43
  I just do that really badly. Sorry.
• 1:07:45
  I know what you mean. Thank you.
• 1:07:47
  You're right guys. I love a bit of bombastic
• 1:07:50
  scoring. This I love.
• 1:07:53
  Go and have a good night, because things are about to get
• 1:07:55
  dark. Yes.
• 1:07:58
  Phone Pearl. Phone Penny, Not Pearl.
• 1:08:01
  You know what's weird, right? Is this season never should have
• 1:08:04
  existed. I know.
• 1:08:05
  It's mad, isn't it? Because I know on good authority
• 1:08:09
  now that Capaldi was effectively fired after series.
• 1:08:13
  What 9 Did you not know that? No.
• 1:08:17
  Yeah, so I know some, a couple of people in the industry.
• 1:08:19
  So Capaldi was effectively fired.
• 1:08:21
  They weren't going to do the husband's River Song was going
• 1:08:23
  to be the end of the sea, the end of his run.
• 1:08:25
  And they were just going to pick up with a new Doctor when
• 1:08:27
  because Chibnall was going to be available.
• 1:08:29
  Chibnall wasn't available because he was doing Broadshirt
• 1:08:32
  three, yeah. But they had Capaldi in a
• 1:08:34
  contractual bind where if they wanted to keep going, he had to
• 1:08:39
  do it. He'd sign for three seasons.
• 1:08:41
  I'm sorry. I'd be doing that.
• 1:08:43
  I'd be recreating that Ian Levine photo with the Hammer and
• 1:08:46
  the television. It's it's unbelievable, absolute
• 1:08:50
  travesty. Unbelievable that the BBC
• 1:08:52
  treated an actor of that stature that way.
• 1:08:55
  Unbelievable. And we're back.
• 1:08:57
  I'm laughing. Not at that.
• 1:08:58
  I'm laughing Shawn Gomez. She's just she goes, What is it?
• 1:09:02
  I'll just. I'm a little sleepy.
• 1:09:04
  Yeah, I was a little bit sleepy. Let's not split hairs.
• 1:09:07
  Shut up, she is just magnificent.
• 1:09:12
  MY1 sadness is is like for a lot of these episodes in this season
• 1:09:16
  which she gets like 1 scene. And I'll just wish she was that
• 1:09:19
  she'd been more involved. Yes.
• 1:09:21
  She turns up. I think it's in Lie of the Land,
• 1:09:24
  and it's by far the best scene in Lie of the Land.
• 1:09:26
  Oh, well, completely. Yeah.
• 1:09:27
  When they're in the vault and she's on the piano, purring on
• 1:09:29
  top of the piano. Or the end of Empress of Mars,
• 1:09:32
  where the only way Nadal can get him back is by having and she's
• 1:09:36
  there behind the glass of the the Rotor in the TARDIS.
• 1:09:41
  Now here we do, we are doing a bit of Silence in the library
• 1:09:45
  again, look up the Doctor and run away.
• 1:09:48
  But I think here it's just played for comedy.
• 1:09:49
  It's kind of. Oh, I love that one in Forest of
• 1:09:52
  the Dead, though. And it's serious here, Here,
• 1:09:55
  it's just played. It's here.
• 1:09:56
  It's played for laughs. When the shadows are coming out
• 1:09:59
  and then they start shrinking in like, oh shit, look me up here.
• 1:10:05
  It's played lightly, but. He likes bringing in these, the
• 1:10:09
  Order of doesn't he? Oh yeah, the headless monks, The
• 1:10:13
  Order of the Silence. What are the point of these
• 1:10:16
  people? It's an executioner's planet.
• 1:10:20
  They just execute people. What the hardened criminals,
• 1:10:24
  anybody? I'd like to learn how Missy was
• 1:10:26
  captured and sent there. Do we learn that?
• 1:10:29
  No, we don't. Of course we don't.
• 1:10:31
  It's the master. How did you escape from
• 1:10:34
  Zarephath? Come on.
• 1:10:36
  So you escaped from Castro Alba, did you?
• 1:10:39
  OK. Oh, how sad.
• 1:10:44
  It's very rare for me to say how sad a Steven Moffett episode has
• 1:10:47
  ended, but spectacular. Let's celebrate the moment.
• 1:10:54
  Oh. Joyous, That was joyous.
• 1:10:56
  That is such a good episode. I think on sort of every level
• 1:10:59
  you could critique that, that was stunning.
• 1:11:04
  But unfortunately, all you have are three reasons that you can
• 1:11:08
  give me as to why. Extremists.
• 1:11:12
  It's such a good episode. If you go 1st and we'll back
• 1:11:14
  back and forth. Can I not have 23?
• 1:11:17
  OK, none of these are. Going to I mean, I've got to
• 1:11:19
  sleep at some point tonight, but none of these are going to come
• 1:11:22
  as surprises. The first one has got to be the
• 1:11:26
  the TARDIS crew. It's got to be Bill, the Doctor
• 1:11:30
  and Nadal. Are you?
• 1:11:31
  Taking. All.
• 1:11:32
  Three as one. I am taking all three as I know
• 1:11:35
  I should do them individually. There's my 3:00, but no, that
• 1:11:37
  that trio together, they are just, I think they're the best
• 1:11:42
  team of the new series and arguably the best team as a
• 1:11:46
  whole. I mean, it's hard, difficult to
• 1:11:48
  argue with Force, Doctor, Sarah and Harry, but I think these
• 1:11:52
  three very different. But I think they are comparable.
• 1:11:57
  It's unfairly neglected as well. This team, I think, I think
• 1:12:02
  because they just had a single season and then we had that
• 1:12:05
  whole new era with Jodie because it was such a.
• 1:12:10
  Division in fandom over that that this just got forgotten.
• 1:12:14
  And I think the other problem is because Nodal clearly wasn't
• 1:12:17
  written as a main character right at the beginning, so he's
• 1:12:20
  quite slow to come in. He only gets a couple of little
• 1:12:23
  scenes early on. It's not really till oxygen is
• 1:12:27
  it, that he kind of joins permanently.
• 1:12:28
  So we've lost the first four episodes, which is the odd scene
• 1:12:31
  here and there. I would have loved to have had
• 1:12:34
  him seated throughout a bit a bit more, but yeah, again, the
• 1:12:38
  history of how he came on board is probably a little bit clouded
• 1:12:41
  in in smoke and mirrors. But yeah, we we lost those early
• 1:12:45
  ones. But there's a big finish boxer
• 1:12:47
  in there somewhere. Don't worry.
• 1:12:50
  Sorry, I'm being yeah. 10 and a couple of BBC books as well.
• 1:12:57
  Matt Lucas can read out, read them out, can't he?
• 1:12:59
  For the audios. Sorry.
• 1:13:00
  OK, I'm going to shut up now. He did do the one Doctor.
• 1:13:02
  Exactly. Do you know what?
• 1:13:03
  It's quite telling that I had to put out the feelers.
• 1:13:06
  I I very rarely have to ask people to cover stuff now
• 1:13:09
  because I've sort of built up a good series of regulars and
• 1:13:12
  hamster. So a lot of people come back and
• 1:13:14
  then a lot of new people come in.
• 1:13:16
  I had to say I've not done. I've done very little series
• 1:13:20
  season. Series 10 I saw and I responded
• 1:13:23
  to you straight away, I said. Why?
• 1:13:24
  This is a magnificent season. So I think it is ignored series
• 1:13:29
  of regulars and it's a kind of ignored season as well.
• 1:13:32
  So, well worth celebrating, definitely.
• 1:13:36
  And I say for my first one, then the twist, because I think I'm
• 1:13:40
  hit and miss with Steven Moffitt twists.
• 1:13:43
  I found the twist at the end of series six that it turns out to
• 1:13:46
  be the test selector. To be the lamest moment in
• 1:13:49
  Doctor Who history where it was hidden in plain sight.
• 1:13:53
  The entire Pre, you know, the previously on is all about the
• 1:13:56
  tessellector. So I was like, oh, I wonder how
• 1:13:58
  this is going to end, you know? But sometimes he doesn't do it
• 1:14:01
  so well. Sometimes he does it amazingly
• 1:14:04
  well. And it's not the twist at the
• 1:14:07
  end of The Empty Child and The Doctor Dances where that fucking
• 1:14:12
  kid has been saying Are You My Mummy?
• 1:14:14
  For two episodes. And it isn't until the context
• 1:14:17
  is given that we realise that is the plot twist, absolutely.
• 1:14:20
  I mean, he is a. Genius when he wants to be.
• 1:14:24
  I keep telling you, Jeremy. When are you getting on board?
• 1:14:29
  Sometimes he's like. No anyway, but the twist here is
• 1:14:33
  amazing. And.
• 1:14:34
  This literally went from being like, you know, bottom tier for
• 1:14:38
  me to be the best of the best, with one twist that solidified
• 1:14:44
  the entire plot in such a clever, dramatic way that made
• 1:14:48
  sense of everything that went before it.
• 1:14:51
  Yeah, it's his. It's his writing at his best.
• 1:14:53
  But the twist is my first one. I'd agree with that.
• 1:14:57
  I would say my second reason to recommend it is there's a lot of
• 1:15:01
  new things going on here. I think we talked about earlier.
• 1:15:03
  We've not seen religion portrayed in this way before,
• 1:15:06
  which I think is refreshing and gives the episode a different
• 1:15:09
  hook. The whole plot device of
• 1:15:12
  assimilation is new to Doctor Who.
• 1:15:15
  We've done fancy lands before, We've done the Land of fiction.
• 1:15:18
  We've done the Celestial toy room.
• 1:15:20
  This is very different. This is much more rooted in in
• 1:15:23
  science and it's different. It's unique.
• 1:15:25
  So that would be my second selling point is that this is
• 1:15:29
  different. Plot gives us something and you
• 1:15:32
  know, Moffett in his sixth year of being showrunner here and yet
• 1:15:34
  he's still giving us things that we haven't seen at all before.
• 1:15:38
  And I think that's to be loaded. Almost like he had a renewed
• 1:15:42
  spring in his step this season. He feels like it.
• 1:15:45
  Maybe in seven and no, seven and nine he was struggling.
• 1:15:50
  But like, he knows he's on his way out.
• 1:15:53
  He's like, oh fuck it, let's just like, let's do it.
• 1:15:55
  You know this? Is going to be the best season
• 1:15:57
  of Doctor Whoever and I. Yeah, we will have one that's
• 1:16:01
  inside men. But yeah, that would be my
• 1:16:05
  second. My second one is going to be the
• 1:16:10
  adult nature of the suicide scenes because I again, I'm very
• 1:16:15
  hit and miss with some of this stuff.
• 1:16:17
  Yeah, I created my mother not long before.
• 1:16:21
  Don't cremate me here. So that landed very badly for.
• 1:16:26
  Me, I was like, I know this is a piece of entertainment, but I
• 1:16:29
  think it's a bit of an irresponsible thing to suggest
• 1:16:31
  to children that people are screaming in fear whilst they're
• 1:16:35
  being burnt. You know they're lovely Bunny or
• 1:16:37
  whoever's being burnt this week. But I think it's subtly done
• 1:16:43
  here and I think it's brilliantly played.
• 1:16:48
  And I think it's only really, truly scary if you are an adult
• 1:16:52
  and you understand the complexities of what's going on.
• 1:16:55
  Agreed. And I think that's a better
• 1:16:57
  approach than. And we get to get our clause,
• 1:16:59
  don't we? I mean, I think right at the end
• 1:17:01
  of that final scene, the doctor says, oh, they're just escaping
• 1:17:04
  from the program. It's an escape.
• 1:17:06
  It's not suicide. They're quitting the game.
• 1:17:08
  He also drops that lovely little nugget, which is just a
• 1:17:11
  throwaway, which is now you know how people in computer games
• 1:17:15
  feel when you're shooting at them.
• 1:17:16
  That's a Whoa, OK, you've just done another.
• 1:17:21
  That's a whole. That's a whole other story,
• 1:17:23
  isn't it? But in fact just dropped in I.
• 1:17:26
  Believe. My ex told me about ATV show
• 1:17:29
  that had that exact premise of people in computer games and the
• 1:17:33
  computer game characters fighting back and then being
• 1:17:36
  given and all of that. So I mean.
• 1:17:39
  It's as premise strong enough it can power ATV show.
• 1:17:41
  I think it came after this. So they probably thought, oh,
• 1:17:44
  that's Stephen Moffitt. He's a kind of chap.
• 1:17:46
  Let's do a series about that. I mean, he throws away so many
• 1:17:49
  ideas per episode. Everyone's people could just be
• 1:17:52
  sitting there with a pad going right.
• 1:17:54
  Yeah, we'll do ATV show about that.
• 1:17:55
  What's that headless Monks. Let's go, you know.
• 1:18:02
  OK, so my third one then, is going to be.
• 1:18:06
  The general production value of this I do.
• 1:18:10
  I do remember 10 being a particularly strong looking,
• 1:18:14
  like I never dreamed in a million years Doctor Who would
• 1:18:17
  command visuals like those enormous bookcases and stairways
• 1:18:23
  down in the Vatican. Oh, that's fabulous.
• 1:18:25
  Brings the Doctor to the place. Of Oxusal there.
• 1:18:29
  All of that, you know. And then, like you say,
• 1:18:32
  contrasting that with the stark white of the the projection room
• 1:18:35
  with the windows and things like that.
• 1:18:38
  He's a really good director. When he does the zygote invasion
• 1:18:40
  inversion and boy, there's a lot to talk about in that one, he
• 1:18:45
  goes for a completely different tone to this.
• 1:18:47
  That's very urban, very washed out, very realistic.
• 1:18:54
  Yeah, he's a good director. He should, and then he does
• 1:18:56
  pyramid at the end of the world, which is very bright and light.
• 1:18:58
  We're in the desert, obviously, so we've got that lightness
• 1:19:01
  flooding everywhere, so. What did he do last year just
• 1:19:04
  out of the invasion? The Zygon 2 parter?
• 1:19:08
  He's only done the Four. He's a shame he's not come back.
• 1:19:11
  No. But then, I do think the new
• 1:19:12
  series has just found in every era, and I'm absolutely
• 1:19:15
  including Jodie's. It's found great directors that
• 1:19:18
  can deliver brilliant work. So, and yeah, he did also do 4
• 1:19:23
  episodes of the Australian K9 series.
• 1:19:26
  Oh well, let's not hold that against him.
• 1:19:28
  I don't remember much about that, just the terrible accents,
• 1:19:31
  I must admit. I think I only got the only, I'm
• 1:19:34
  not going to call it Doctor Who. I did the first episode because
• 1:19:37
  K9 was K9. That was.
• 1:19:39
  Yeah, that was. It there was there was like.
• 1:19:42
  The streets of London, but it was clearly in a studio.
• 1:19:44
  It was all very weird. It was pretty bad.
• 1:19:47
  Yeah, it was John Leeson. But it was, well, tricked.
• 1:19:49
  Yeah. Sorry.
• 1:19:50
  Yeah, let's move on to far better things.
• 1:19:52
  My my third. I was going to say the the look
• 1:19:55
  as well, but you've nicked that one.
• 1:19:56
  So I will go with the sparkling dialogue.
• 1:19:59
  I think Moffitt's dialogue is just, again, when he's on form,
• 1:20:04
  it's sensational and here it's not that kind of ROM Comi.
• 1:20:09
  You know, husband of River Song back and forth, Cary Grant
• 1:20:12
  Katherine Hepburn type. It's much more sedate and calm.
• 1:20:17
  That is just, it's just, I'm sorry, going to use the overused
• 1:20:20
  word of the day again clever. And I can watch it so many times
• 1:20:24
  and you get something different elsewhere every time.
• 1:20:26
  And it's that dialogue. That dialogue brings me back
• 1:20:29
  into it. It's intelligent.
• 1:20:30
  It's articulate. It's it's just lovely to listen
• 1:20:33
  to and that is you know, you know, you want rewatch value and
• 1:20:37
  my God, you get rewatch value out of Steven Moffat.
• 1:20:40
  When you think of a particular line that you really love, well
• 1:20:46
  there's so many. I think I mentioned the one
• 1:20:47
  before that I loved was when Nadal said to the doctor, I know
• 1:20:51
  you're an idiot and me, just like everybody knows that.
• 1:20:54
  It's just it's the way it's played as well, of course, to be
• 1:20:58
  honest, every line that comes out to Michelle Gomez's mouth
• 1:21:00
  is. Is to be treasured.
• 1:21:02
  You could give her a shit line and she'll still deliver it.
• 1:21:04
  Amazingly. You'll be beguiled into thinking
• 1:21:07
  it's incredible, but they usually are incredible.
• 1:21:10
  So actually, and I rewind Joe when I said the three regulars,
• 1:21:14
  we've got to put Michelle Gomez in there as one of the four
• 1:21:17
  regulars. Also, I could have a full thing.
• 1:21:19
  Off you go. OK, 4th Michelle Gomez.
• 1:21:21
  Spectacular. I'm going to put out their best
• 1:21:24
  master there's ever been. And I don't think she'll be
• 1:21:26
  topped because she gets that duality of the dark and the
• 1:21:31
  light. She gets redeemed and I don't
• 1:21:33
  think we'll I think it's unlikely we'll see that again.
• 1:21:35
  I'm hoping we give the master a rest now for a while.
• 1:21:38
  I think we've done so much master.
• 1:21:39
  Now let's let's put it him slash her, slash they to one side.
• 1:21:45
  We've we've kind of covered enough ground so let's let's
• 1:21:49
  park the master for now and bring something new on.
• 1:21:52
  But Michelle Gomez? It was such a potentially
• 1:21:57
  controversial idea, Turning the Master into a woman.
• 1:22:03
  Yeah, unlike turning the Doctor into a woman, it was.
• 1:22:07
  Just greeted with enormous acclaim and I think it's partly
• 1:22:11
  down to Stephen Moffitt's writing, but I think it's mostly
• 1:22:13
  down to Michelle Gomez's performance.
• 1:22:16
  Yeah, I think her performance. We talked earlier about Capaldi
• 1:22:19
  never going no, never putting a step wrong, but I think he's
• 1:22:22
  equally same, can be said of Michelle Gomez.
• 1:22:25
  I'm not sure I've ever heard a single person say they don't
• 1:22:29
  like her performance as Missy. No, I don't know.
• 1:22:32
  I don't think half. No.
• 1:22:34
  And that's that's unusual. I've heard certainly other
• 1:22:36
  people say they don't like John Sim's performance as master ones
• 1:22:40
  or. I mean, I've heard more positive
• 1:22:42
  things about the ones, but I've still heard detractors.
• 1:22:45
  So yeah, it's it's unusual to have something in Doctor Who
• 1:22:49
  that everyone 's, everyone agrees on.
• 1:22:51
  I'm sure we'll hear. To the contrary, let's not.
• 1:22:54
  Do that again, Jesus. I've got nothing to talk about
• 1:22:56
  otherwise. I think Sasha Duan is really
• 1:22:58
  good, but I think he suffered because he followed Michelle
• 1:23:02
  Gomez and so soon after, Michelle Gomez.
• 1:23:04
  Everybody. Anybody would have done,
• 1:23:06
  wouldn't they? Yeah.
• 1:23:07
  But also because of the arc, it's not just the it's the
• 1:23:09
  performance, but it's also that ARC.
• 1:23:11
  And so kind of come back and go back to a more traditional
• 1:23:14
  master. So soon after, I think I kind of
• 1:23:18
  undermined his, his ability to kind of really take it forward.
• 1:23:22
  Yeah, the answer argument I'll give to that is I think his
• 1:23:25
  performance in The Power of the Doctor is one of the best master
• 1:23:29
  performances we ever had. Like I couldn't take my eyes off
• 1:23:32
  him in that. Yeah.
• 1:23:34
  No, no. Go on, fight me.
• 1:23:36
  No, I think he's, I think he's very good.
• 1:23:39
  I think he is very good but. When he said to Kate Lethbridge
• 1:23:43
  Stewart, by the way, your dad's an idiot.
• 1:23:45
  I was like, there's about time someone said it.
• 1:23:49
  Yeah, he's little sly looks as being as he's being LED away by
• 1:23:52
  you. And yeah, and he is very good.
• 1:23:54
  But yeah, Michelle Gomez, me all the way.
• 1:23:58
  Well. It was a complete delight.
• 1:24:01
  How did you point your first podcast?
• 1:24:03
  Well, you have broken me in very gently, Joe, for which I thank
• 1:24:07
  you. I don't think I'm the first you.
• 1:24:09
  Know, I mean in podcasting terms.
• 1:24:11
  I'm sure in podcasting terms you are the 1st.
• 1:24:13
  Yes, and everybody out there, anyone listening to this that
• 1:24:16
  runs the pot and listen to how fabulous this man is, Come along
• 1:24:19
  now snap him up. Although you better save
• 1:24:22
  yourself for me. All right, I've got.
• 1:24:23
  A few more I want to do with you.
• 1:24:25
  Yeah, anytime you want. Joe, This has been an absolute
• 1:24:27
  pleasure. Well, look, I've actually got a
• 1:24:29
  suggestion that I'd like to say to you, but it would be more of
• 1:24:32
  a challenge than extremists because it's widely considered
• 1:24:35
  an enormous dud. Oh, I'd like a challenge.
• 1:24:39
  And. I don't think anyone's going to
• 1:24:40
  champion it. I don't know.
• 1:24:41
  If you're champion it, you might hate it.
• 1:24:44
  It's a poetry story. It's a six parter.
• 1:24:49
  Are we going for the Mutants? Well actually it was either
• 1:24:52
  going to be the the Mutants or the Monster of Peloton.
• 1:24:57
  I love the mutants. I think the mutants is massively
• 1:25:00
  undervalued. I absolutely adore mutants.
• 1:25:04
  Let's do the mutants. Let's do the.
• 1:25:06
  Mutants. You know, it's one I I used to
• 1:25:08
  hate. And every time I watch it, I
• 1:25:10
  like it more. It's got so much going for it.
• 1:25:13
  It doesn't feel like a it feels like a macaque story.
• 1:25:16
  It doesn't feel like Bristol boys at all.
• 1:25:18
  I think Mutants is fabulous. I don't understand why.
• 1:25:22
  I think. Did it come back for thee DWM
• 1:25:25
  poll? Oh no, that's that was a good
• 1:25:26
  old time monster, but it was certainly last two or three.
• 1:25:30
  How? Could people not enjoy the time
• 1:25:32
  monster? Well, yeah, I enjoy the time
• 1:25:34
  Monster. Battling I think The Mutants has
• 1:25:36
  got a lot going for. It's got a lot to say and I
• 1:25:39
  think it's unfortunate that a few dodgy production issues and
• 1:25:42
  maybe one or two acting choices will it down a bit.
• 1:25:47
  Lots to talk about with acting choices, yeah.
• 1:25:49
  And we're all do. Sorry, Andre.
• 1:25:52
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 1:25:54
  For sure, yeah. Let's do the mutants, Joe.
• 1:25:56
  It's a good. Well, let's reconvene on solos
• 1:25:59
  then, shall we? Let's do it.
• 1:26:01
  Make sure you put your gas mask on.
• 1:26:05
  No, I'm not even going to say that.
• 1:26:06
  Don't go, don't go. But just to say, this has been a
• 1:26:11
  complete pleasure. Thank you very much for me too.
• 1:26:13
  Thank you ever so much, Joe. It's been great.