Latest / 1 to 100 / E13: RichPanel Refused Over $1,000,000

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E13: RichPanel Refused Over $1,000,000 · 1 to 100

0:00
I was just telling Jeremiah and Zach that I have seen like 4-5
0:03
episodes already. I don't know you believe like 7
0:05
or 8. So great to be here and I've
0:09
I've been enjoying the show so far.
0:11
Great initiative. Well, yeah.
0:13
Can you, can you give us a little bit of an intro, tell us
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who you are about Rich Panel, all that kind of stuff?
0:19
Sure, absolutely. So my name is Ahmed, I'm the CEO
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at Rich Panel. We are AB to B SAS application.
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We make customer support software for e-commerce brands
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and typically brands come to us because we are able to like
0:34
automate a lot of their tickets. So most brands that will come to
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us will reduce their ticket volumes by like 30 to 50%.
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We use a lot of AI and we help brands boost their revenue per
0:46
FT by cutting down the number of members they need in the
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customer support team. So that's a little bit about the
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company. I started this like five years
0:54
back. In the first year we got through
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Y Combinator, but I did not take that.
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I did not go through that because we also raised the seat
1:01
round from Sequoia. So I instead ended up taking the
1:05
seat round. We became profitable in year 1.
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We operate mostly out of India, Bangalore.
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So we have a very small team, but a big revenues like high
1:15
revenue per FT and most of the customers are based in the US
1:19
and it's been five years since I've been doing this.
1:23
That's awesome. So you guys are like you raise
1:25
some money, but kind of operate as a bootstrap business.
1:28
Yeah, yeah. I wasn't even sure that I should
1:32
be taking the money because I was contemplating between the
1:36
two of like, hey, whether I should go with a bootstrap
1:39
business or whether I should raise like a big round.
1:43
And I did speak with like founders from both sides.
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And all I did is, like confuse myself.
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But after I raised my seed round, I was not able to spend
1:53
that money, you know, because we were getting enough money in
1:58
through the door that we could survive on customer revenues,
2:01
which is why I also did not take a Series A when I was offered
2:03
one within the next year. The investors were not happy,
2:07
but I think it was the right decision for the company.
2:11
Do do you regret taking the seat around then or do you still
2:14
think no? No, no, absolutely not.
2:15
Absolutely not. Like one of the things that
2:17
really helped me is like the network and the mentorship that
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I get from some of the partners at Sequoia is like really
2:25
immense and they think really, really big.
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They, they almost force you to think really big And, and I want
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to be doing all of those things as well, But you know, it
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should, it should be in line with your first principal
2:37
thinking. So if I'm, if I'm really
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struggling to in E com, I've initially I've really struggled
2:44
to like spend money in marketing to get more people to hear about
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us. Like profitably.
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Obviously if, if it comes to like just throwing money, you
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can, but profitably, I've had challenges reaching that segment
2:56
of people. So I was like, if I'm not able
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to spend the initial couple million, what will I do with the
3:01
next 10? Yeah, that's interesting because
3:04
Zach and Jack, you guys have actually had some success with
3:07
hit ads, right, and bringing business in that way.
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A pretty big channel first, but I guess it gets more complicated
3:15
the more you niche down, right? Yours is a very specific use
3:18
case. Like imagine there are probably
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some, well imagine a lot of people are finding you through
3:24
marketplaces where having more visibility in that marketplace,
3:28
like better than you know, some random channel that isn't where
3:32
your customers actually are, right?
3:34
Well, maybe. I feel like they have like a
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larger Tam than potentially. US.
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Maybe. What's your Tam like?
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Who are your customers? Our customers are like people
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like spending a significant amount on paid advertising.
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So we're not E com specific, but we're definitely like E com.
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We grew a lot in the E com at the beginning.
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And so like we maintain a lot of like E com sort of penetration,
3:58
but like there is like a certain size of store that like wouldn't
4:02
get any value from us. But like from you like everybody
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needs support. Like the moment you start
4:07
getting like orders, you need support.
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So like I feel like paid outs would potentially work under
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your guys's pricing page right now.
4:15
Like you guys are definitely like a very affordable option,
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right? In comparison, I think the big
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biggest thing for like paid and we haven't like fully unlocked
4:23
this, but it's just like you need to have like a reason to
4:27
introduce the product and they need some sort of offer, right?
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And so like, I think that's the the biggest place for like
4:32
software. I think we still haven't figured
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it out is like, well, what is like the reason why someone's
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going to click the ad? Like what is the offer here
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outside of just like the product and for you guys, Yeah, it's
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like, yeah, cut your gorgeous belt, like whatever, 90% or
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something solid off, yeah. Yeah.
4:51
So I'll tell you where I'm coming from.
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When I said that the paid ads have not been a very successful
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channel for us is if you think about it, we are only and only
5:00
servicing E com brands. But when it comes to like people
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entering their search queries on Google, they don't type.
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I'm looking for customer support for ecom or customer support for
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Shopify. I mean, a very small subset
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does. So when you look at the volumes,
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there are 10,000 searches for helpdesk software per month,
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which is a significant volume. And by the way, one click is
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like $30.00 or $33. That's the work like, which is
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fine with us, we can afford that.
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But what will happen is out of this 10,000, maybe 2000 of them
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are genuine ecom brands. I'm just making some
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hypothetical numbers considering like, you know, more general
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purpose tool like Zendesk gets 20% of the revenues from ecom.
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So I'm just extrapolating that out of that 10,000, maybe 2000
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people are ecom people. But do you know how many people
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actually search helpdesk for Shopify or Heldesk for ecom?
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Maybe like 100 people, right? So even the e-commerce people
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are using a very broad keyword. And if I target that keyword, I
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end up spending my budget on a lot of general purpose audience.
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So that that's been the traditional challenge with
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attracting the wrong kind of businesses.
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And the next thing is even with an E com, there are like
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2,000,000 Shopify brands, but the ones that are relevant for
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rich panel are like the top 3040 or maybe 50,000 brands, which
6:20
which do like at least couple of million in GMB where it makes
6:22
sense. So most of the brands we serve
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are like 8 Figure 9 figure brands.
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So it has to be a certain size for them to like really utilize
6:31
and see the benefits of rich panel.
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That's where we excel. How much of your You don't have
6:37
to answer this, but like how much of your revenue come from
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this $2000 Automation Success Kit offer you have?
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Oh, nothing. It's, it's a very small fee that
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we take, but it does help like set the right tone because 1 is
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like somebody's willing to put like $2000 upfront.
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We, we deliver it at cost. Sometimes the open AI credits
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that go in like doing the automation Success Kit is more
7:01
than that itself if you have to run it like a couple of times.
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So what that automated with Cess kit actually does is we run a
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analysis on all your past conversations, like literally
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read every conversation and determine why people contact
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you, what are the contact drivers and how much of that can
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be automate. So it's pretty expensive.
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And then we set up everything for you.
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So for brands, it's like, you know, they just show up on a
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demo call and like two other calls for like staff training
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and then everything is set up, they just go live.
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Most of the heavy lifting is done by us.
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So it's a small price to pay even for me.
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Like ideally I wouldn't want to do it.
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It's a small price to pay for great product adoption and then
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eventually increasing the customer's stickiness.
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So for you. It's kind of like a for you,
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it's like a break even activity in order to better Dr. adoption
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of your product for people that are signing up.
7:55
Absolutely, yeah. What's your, I'm just like brand
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new brands something here? What's your like?
8:01
What's your split of annual versus monthly customers?
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40% and 60 percent, 40% being annual and 60% is monthly, 40%
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includes like 2 year, three-year commitments as well.
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In the recent months it's skewing more towards annual and
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you know multi year contracts. It's a factor of like the a not
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even presenting that option. So we have two year, three-year
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options, but it's not like it's something that we've been
8:29
actively promoting. So if brands know that there is
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an option, they they take that. Cool.
8:35
Like if you were to say a lot like a like a lower number than
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that, I would I would have been like, why not make the success
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get like $10,000 and then bundle it in with annual deals.
8:43
But it sounds like you're having like no issue closing annual.
8:46
It was just like an idea that popped in my head but.
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That's a good really interesting question Zach, because I so that
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seems like a very high number to me, 40% being annual or multi
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year. I don't even actually know what
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our numbers are on the no side. It's like next to zero.
9:02
We just don't even really push it at all.
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Stamped has a lot more, but it's still nowhere near 40%.
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What's that look like for you guys on the four point side?
9:12
Like 1 to 2%. Yeah.
9:14
OK. So yeah, it's.
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But like that also like almost aligns with like a percentage of
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our deals that are self-serve PLG.
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So yeah, I mean if I get to 40% all annual contracts.
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It's wild sick one. I meant the your discount
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actually, like it's not a crazy discount on the animal either.
9:39
So that's kind of wild to me. I, but I, I suppose it's also
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like you're, you're changing out a workflow and a very critical
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piece of a workflow in a business.
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So I can see like if you're going to do it, you, you want to
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commit for a long period of time anyways.
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Like you're not just going to do it for three months and then
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switch to something else. Which is true and also like in
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all our annual and multi year deals as well, we give them like
10:00
a 60 day opt out. And I don't think I should be
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saying that on life. But if customers have been like
10:07
unhappy when in like, you know, after three or four months, we
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pretty much like, you know, shook hands and let them go and
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we in fact pay them the entire thing, not even like pro
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databases. And that's, that's one of the
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things that has sort of helped maintain that tone inside the
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company, like how we treat our customers.
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Because at the end of the day, if I'm paying for software that
10:26
I'm not using, I'll, I'll be pretty furious, right?
10:28
I'm not going to recommend. So even if you know, one out of
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like 30 cases, it happens like 3 percent, 4%, if it happens, I'm
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like, OK, you know, let's just shake hands.
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Sometimes it's also involuntary, like people are struggling in
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the business, something goes wrong, some people were hit by
10:43
tariffs. We're like, OK, no worries.
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We'll either pause your subscription so that you can
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continue using it, or we just give the entire money back.
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That's that's fine with us. And so many of them then come
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back. Yeah, it's, it's funny because
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one of your competitors, maybe not like most direct
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competitors, but somebody in in the same space as you is we're
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paying them 13,000 currently. We're contractually obligated to
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pay them $13,000 more over the next year than we'll actually
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use. They don't want to, to let that
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go. And so it's like, OK, cool.
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Like you don't owe me that. But also I won't be signing up
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another contract. Like that's just, it's like if
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we're gone and I didn't say I didn't, I didn't want to be
11:26
threatening, but I kind of applied like this is like, if
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you're not willing to budget on that, like this is a relatively
11:33
small percentage of it. Let's not, it's a decent chunk
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of it, but like, hey, give us this deal on this next year for
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software we're not even using or we're just not going to be back.
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And it's wild how many of these companies just don't care.
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And we'll, we'll push to make sure they retain that, you know,
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small percentage of revenue today and lose 100% of it in the
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future. Is it intercom?
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No, intercom's actually been pretty good for us.
11:56
I think he's talking about Zendesk, right?
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I know it because you know, similar thing happened with
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Zendesk. The one of our customers signed
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up last year, like for a demo, very big customer, 6 figure
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deal, OK, like 80,000, not even 6 figure like 8090 thousand.
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So they came in, they took a demo and then the evaluation was
12:20
stretching because you know, they had like multiple layers of
12:22
approval and multiple people needed to see the tool.
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So what happened is in the end they came very close to the
12:29
Zendesk renewal date. So they reached back out to
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Zendesk and they said that, hey, can we move to monthly?
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We've been on an annual contract, but can we move to
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monthly? And Zendesk denied it.
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So they had to stick around in Zendesk.
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So they, they just left the evaluation between because
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they're like, hey, we have to pay 100K to Zendesk.
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They're not letting us exit and we don't have like, we just like
12:49
3 days left for the evaluation, right?
12:52
So they continued with Zenders, but we were very good in the way
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that we handle the entire transaction to the extent that
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six months later they're like, fuck it, we're coming to you.
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And they just migrated like a couple of weeks ago.
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And by the way, last year the contract was like more like 50K.
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But now that they've grown quite a lot, it's it's more like 8090
13:15
K. So they still decided to switch
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irrespective of them having money stuck in that because they
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see the value. It's just such bad business in
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my opinion. Like, yeah, like the the product
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is fine. There's nothing like it's, it's
13:28
fine. It works for us, but now like
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we're actually going to look for alternatives.
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Like that's that's what that means.
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So it's like if you're just going to screw your customers,
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they don't want to be your customer.
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And so it's just like, yeah, it's, it's really bad business
13:44
in my opinion. Sometimes you forget that at the
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end of the software to human beings and they have emotions,
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so we need to treat them as such.
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Yesterday, another big customer got blocked into their account.
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We immediately unblocked it because his subscription
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expired. He has not paid the invoice.
14:01
They're a big customer. So he's, he's asking me directly
14:04
writing to me. What led to the decision of you
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blocking us? Like it diminishes trust in the
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relationship. So firstly, I told him like,
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this was not a manual decision. This is system initiated.
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The only thing manual that we did is like unblock you, right?
14:19
But I didn't stop at that e-mail.
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I in fact called him and I even left him a voicemail because
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it's it's important that we also take care of how they feel about
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working with us, right? So he should know that it was
14:30
not an intentional decision to like disrupt the service.
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But this is what happened is what's going on.
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And you know, we didn't mean it. So just that one line or 1 tone
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like he returned my call and he was like all good we are all
14:42
good but but handle those emotions are also important.
14:47
Yeah, absolutely. There's a, another example like
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that. I, we have a customer who turned
14:55
from one of our products on the stamped side and technically
15:01
like based on the policy that was in place for that product,
15:05
they were supposed to give 30 days notice, which I, I wasn't
15:08
even aware of this policy. It's an, an old outdated policy.
15:13
And so support was doing their job and saying like, hey, here's
15:16
the policy. And like the customer was very
15:18
unhappy about it. And so support let me know.
15:21
And so I was like, yeah, that's a dumb policy.
15:23
We should kill that. So then I reached out to that
15:26
customer and said, hey, I, you know, just want to say thanks
15:28
for bringing that up. Like it is a bad policy.
15:31
We're going to change it. I apologize for that.
15:35
And then immediately he was like, OK, actually I'm
15:38
interested. No, now can you like tell me
15:43
about it as we hopped on a call and he signed up for a highest
15:45
tier plan of no, largely just because we said hey, like we're
15:50
sorry this was not a good experience.
15:52
You're right. We understand let's move on or
15:55
let's let's fix this rather and and move on from here.
15:57
And so yeah, we were able to retain that relationship at a
16:01
different capacity just because it's humans being humans.
16:05
I. Love that story.
16:05
I love that story at so many levels because you know, no
16:08
matter what, whatever business principles we apply, people want
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to do business with people they like.
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And what ends up happening is like when you, I, I, it's
16:20
interesting you talk about the, the example of turning off
16:23
automatically turning off the subscription right when you're
16:25
sitting down and building like what the experience should be,
16:29
That's just like the default, right?
16:31
Like we all of us kind of lean on the defaults of what we
16:33
expect. Like the Stripe by default will
16:36
notify you that you should turn off the subscription.
16:39
Like that's the default mechanism of Stripe.
16:41
And so you have to think beyond the default experience in order
16:46
to come up with a more customer friendly experiences.
16:48
Like that's actually just the reality of being in the space
16:50
that in which we operate. And I would say that's true of
16:52
every industry, right? It's not just a SAS thing.
16:55
And so it's very easy to say we're just going to do the
16:58
default here until you actually see how that turns out in
17:01
practice. And you don't necessarily know
17:04
what that's going to be like until that happens in practice.
17:06
That's a good example where like I'm sure you're now rethinking
17:08
like should we actually turn that off when the payment fails
17:12
or should we wait 30 days or whatever that looks like, right?
17:14
Yeah, yeah. Do you guys see it as a healthy
17:18
pressure on product to honor refunds past that guarantee
17:22
period? If somebody's unhappy with
17:24
product, you're shaking hands after, I don't know, 60 days,
17:27
three months, four months. Is that a healthy pressure on
17:30
product to step up your game? I think so.
17:34
I would say so. The the way that I've looked at
17:37
refunds is that, OK, let's say, let's say somebody comes to us
17:44
and says, hey, we need a refund. We never used this.
17:49
And you look at it and say, OK, yeah, I literally signed up
17:52
three months ago and they didn't do anything.
17:55
We'll give you a refund for that.
17:57
But I, I also think there's some limits on that, right?
17:59
Like if you sign up for something two years ago and you
18:00
never did anything with it, like there's also like a pretty
18:03
significant business impact on us.
18:05
If you just decide that like you paid for this thing and then you
18:09
don't want it and now you want $5000 back, right?
18:13
Like, so there's like a limit there.
18:16
And so, and we try to be a little bit flexible, just like
18:17
work with people. So that's one aspect of like, I
18:20
never use this thing. And so that's just like that
18:22
happens. We all have that experience,
18:24
right? We sign up for something we and
18:25
we don't use it. And then you get into like, I've
18:28
been using this thing and I want a refund.
18:30
And then it's a question of why did we drop the ball on
18:32
something? OK.
18:33
Then yes, you should get a refund.
18:35
Did you just decide you wanted to stop using it and that you
18:38
didn't tell anybody? That's kind of on you at that
18:40
point. Like we'll give you something,
18:42
but we're probably not going to refund you like 6 months of
18:45
usage. Yeah.
18:46
I I think for me it's the Max is you refund the most recent, if
18:51
not the two most reasons, if it's monthly, anything more than
18:55
that. And like realistically, you can
18:58
tell exactly the type of person, like the reasonable ones to
19:02
refund are always reasonable. And then the ones that make all
19:05
of the noise are always the ones that it's completely
19:08
unreasonable to refund. And so like, even just based on
19:12
the energy and like the way that they ask if they're like
19:14
demanding refunds, like right away, like they're usually not
19:20
like they're, they're like, they're like realize that
19:22
they've made a mistake on themselves and they're trying to
19:24
pass that mistake on to someone else.
19:26
And it comes across in the energy.
19:28
Someone's like, oh, like I know I haven't made my own mistake.
19:30
And like, let's see if whatever. Like you can just tell by the
19:33
support ticket like. It's true.
19:36
It's like if. I look at people that pretend
19:38
like they never put their credit card in.
19:40
That's my fucking favorite one. They're like, I never put my
19:43
credit card in here and like, we don't even ask for credit card
19:46
for free trial. And it's like, well, then
19:48
someone hacked your account and this $49.00 is the least of your
19:54
worries because like you certainly put your credit card
19:57
in and I know it. But like the ones that like try
20:00
to tell me they didn't or like Telesport, I'm just like oh man,
20:04
like. Yeah, it's crazy.
20:07
And I think there's a misconception that a lot of
20:08
people have that like software's free, right?
20:10
It's like this idea of like if you are running a software
20:14
business, you just like everything is just free for you,
20:17
of course, money back. And it's like that's actually
20:20
not how it works. Like there's salaries that are
20:22
paid. There's like server cost that
20:25
run like just because you didn't use it to it's capacity or like
20:31
you've been especially again, it's like especially if
20:33
somebody's been using something and then they want a refund.
20:36
It's very like there's AI have a a stronger stance of like, hey,
20:41
there is definitely a limit there.
20:43
Yeah, they've been using it. No refund.
20:47
What do you mean? Yeah, 'cause like we are
20:50
incurring costs for that. Like even even if it doesn't
20:52
seem like it just because it's. It's like if someone ate an
20:55
apple and tried to return the core.
20:57
Like no, like you ate the apple, what are you talking about?
21:03
By the way, actually, so I grew up, I think you guys know this,
21:06
but by my parents on the health food store, people legit would
21:11
do that by the way they would like.
21:13
But like, I just wasn't a ripe apple.
21:16
Maybe not an apple, but like literally they like buy a bag of
21:19
chips, eat half the bag of chips and be like, yeah, this isn't
21:22
what I wanted and bring it back and try to get a refund.
21:24
I kid you not. People do that kind of stuff.
21:26
And in the physical world too. So I'm, I'm sure you know the
21:30
all the brands that we work with have probably have that
21:32
experience where somebody uses something, tries to sign a bag.
21:34
My toxic trade is I've never returned anything in my entire
21:37
life. I I can't think of anything I'd
21:41
want to do less than have to return something.
21:43
Good Sam. And the worst is like when
21:46
you're in line at the grocery store behind somebody who's
21:48
trying to return a $3 item. And I here.
21:53
I have a crazy story about that that was in a grocery store in
21:57
front of me and I was like what is going on this this lady was
22:01
irate. So I was like, can can we hurry
22:03
this up? I literally just, you know, told
22:05
her to move on, and then her and her boyfriend husband tried to
22:10
fight me in the parking lot. And I'm like, whoa, you guys
22:13
just need to chill. Yeah, I don't understand.
22:18
I think it's a bit of a thumbnail, right?
22:20
If that sort of behavior is happening, like trying to
22:22
refund, I don't know, an Apple core, half a neaten bag of
22:25
chips, that's a thumbnail that represents that entire person.
22:29
Have you ever, but have you ever watched like women shop for
22:31
clothes? They don't actually ever buy
22:34
anything. They're just trying it.
22:37
I don't know if you've ever seen this, but it's one of the most
22:39
crazy because like I've like if I ever got a package, like I'm
22:43
not going to redeliver it or like repackage it, put on a
22:46
return label. Like I'm going to find someone
22:48
that like I'll be like here, have this thing.
22:51
It doesn't fit or something. But like girls will literally
22:54
order. Like, it makes me be like, oh,
22:56
This is why all these return apps, like probably make so much
22:58
money because like, you will buy like thousands of dollars worth
23:02
of things and then like keep like $100 worth of stuff.
23:05
And I was like, man, if you were like my customer, I would ban
23:08
you from like checking out of my Shopify stores.
23:11
Like one of the craziest things I've ever seen.
23:14
This is a strap. That impulse did not want to
23:16
return things. I think it was Buffy.
23:18
Buffy had a 7 day free trial on their comforters.
23:21
Like who in their right mind is going to order a comforter?
23:24
If you're not in the market for a comforter, right?
23:26
You're just not going to buy it because there's a nice offer and
23:29
then you're going to take that and return it.
23:32
A whole comforter it was a it's a great offer right because
23:36
people. I have returned something and
23:37
it's probably the craziest thing to return.
23:40
I returned to Purple Mattress. OK.
23:41
I was going to say the mattress is the yeah, yeah, the next
23:45
level. Beyond that, you actually return
23:46
to mattress. They, well, they actually don't
23:48
return it. They just pick it up like a
23:49
garbage company picks up and throws it out.
23:53
But it was a horrible mattress. I love the company.
23:56
I love their commercials. I fucking hated a mattress.
23:58
It was horrible. Did you do that like the 100
24:01
days or whatever and like how much?
24:03
No. It was it was a week and I was
24:05
like, I don't want this. I don't want this anymore.
24:07
Yeah, what was it? Like Purple mattress?
24:11
Quick quick story on that for you guys.
24:13
I, I went through a rough patch financially after one of my
24:20
start-ups failed in like 2018. And so to get by, I got into
24:26
dumpster diving. That was like, I had like a job.
24:28
And then I also was like trying to make ends meet with just like
24:31
whatever I could do to, to make money.
24:34
And I discovered that Home Depot dumpsters were legit because
24:40
what they would do is people will buy things online, return
24:44
it to store, and then instead of sending it back to the
24:47
warehouse, it was an online only item.
24:48
They just threw it in the dumpster.
24:50
And so you'd go like, find all these things that were like high
24:52
value items and just like pull it out of the dumpster and go
24:57
resell it on Craigslist. So anyway, I made a enough to
25:00
like at least help cover rent and stuff for for like a six
25:03
month period doing so, Yeah. So what's the cool?
25:06
What's like the crate? What was like the highest ticket
25:08
thing that you got? The the dude there was so
25:16
somebody returned like a pallets, multiple pallets of
25:20
insulation to Home Depot. And so like each pallet was
25:24
worth like the list price online at least was 1700 bucks.
25:30
And so there's like 8-8 bags with these big bags of
25:32
insulation per pallet. So 16 bags, I can fit three of
25:38
them in my station wagon. And so I made six trips, I
25:42
guess, to pick these up from Home Depot and then sold them
25:45
online or sold them through like Craigslist and Facebook
25:48
Marketplace. That was the best find because
25:50
it was like so easy to sell. I like, discounted it steeply.
25:54
And yeah, it was, you know, I made good amount of money on
25:58
that. But there was also like one time
25:59
I went to a Home Depot dumpster and they had like 20 doors that
26:04
had been on display, like just like a, you know, door entry
26:08
door for your house sort of thing that were just in
26:11
perfectly good condition. I just was like, I don't have,
26:15
you know, worth hundreds of dollars each.
26:16
And I just was like, I don't have the, the ability to
26:19
transport these basically. But there was a lot of stuff
26:22
like that. It was.
26:23
It was pretty cool. Might have to hit up a Home
26:25
Depot parking lot soon, yeah? Maybe the Home Depot guys didn't
26:29
really put it in the dumpster, they just kept it on the side
26:31
and Jeremiah picked all of that up.
26:34
Well, you've got like, you got like, you got to be careful
26:38
because it's like technically like it was a no trespassing
26:40
size. You're not supposed to be there.
26:41
And it's kind of a Gray area for sure.
26:43
But like if it's in the dumpster, it's in the trash.
26:46
It's like kind of Fair game. So yeah, anyway, but the returns
26:51
going back to your your point about returns, like that's what
26:53
happens is most of the stuff just gets thrown away.
26:55
Yeah, it's actually really sad too, so.
26:57
It's a great business for the return apps, you know, I include
27:00
more and more people to shop and then return make money of it.
27:04
Oh, OK, yeah. One thing I wanted to ask you
27:06
about on it, because I think this is a really interesting
27:08
topic and I, I know you and I have touched on this briefly,
27:10
but you as a rich panel has kind of is kind of viewed as like the
27:16
affordable alternative to your competitors, a variety of
27:20
different competitors, I suppose.
27:22
But I'm curious, like I, I want to know how you feel about that,
27:25
because I think like there's a like, do any of us really want
27:31
to be like the cheap option, right?
27:32
And I think that's unfair, right?
27:33
Like you're not the cheap option.
27:34
But anyway, like I'm curious how you feel about like that being
27:37
like one of the major drivers at least at market of like the way
27:40
people talk about rich panel. Absolutely.
27:43
You know like when it comes to like software design.
27:45
So I take software design really seriously and Rich panel is the
27:51
one that is responsible for like a lot of things we built which
27:54
became industry standard, right. But maybe because in the initial
27:58
days we did not have so much exposure.
28:00
Even if a competitor is like ripping us off after like 6
28:03
months or 12 months, they'll be seen as the one that is coming
28:06
up with that even a half baked version of it.
28:09
So I never liked the fact that when we started picking up
28:14
momentum, it was because people would claim that this is a
28:17
better, cheaper alternative. I never liked it.
28:20
I always viewed me and our work as really high quality and
28:26
people should be buying it because of the outcomes that it
28:28
delivers. So I was really against it, like
28:31
when people would describe it as a cheaper alternative and when I
28:37
would tell Dorai that, hey, this, this is like really
28:39
hurting my ego. And he's like, you know, keep
28:42
your ego in check. That's bringing money.
28:43
So just, you know, whatever works in the market uses are to
28:46
accept it, right? Like that's how customers
28:48
perceive it. This this also goes against like
28:50
everything, like something like Sequoia and like your investors
28:53
will tell you is like, you'd never want to be taking the slot
28:58
or taking the place of like the most cheaper alternative because
29:01
it's not very defensible. So you don't want to be taking
29:04
that slot and that's not ideal for us.
29:07
And we try a lot to like move hard away from it.
29:10
I feel like our pricing is fairly not cheap.
29:13
It's just that other people are ripping people off.
29:15
So they feel like, oh, this is this is cheaper.
29:17
You're not cheap, it's just fair pricing.
29:19
I think that's actually a really important piece of it is like it
29:22
is fair pricing and I think too for like in your contacts you're
29:29
not trying to support. I mean, I don't know what you
29:32
raised that for your seat, but like I assume it's not like $100
29:35
million valuation, right, like or 500 million or whatever that
29:39
is. So it for your contacts like
29:40
let's let's say you look at like we have to get to a $500 million
29:43
valuation. That's like like our revenues
29:46
have to be able to support getting to this point in order
29:48
for the outcome of the business to be successful.
29:51
And your contacts, if you don't have a number like that that you
29:55
have to chase and actually every incremental dollar that you
29:58
bring in the business actually increases the value in a way
30:01
that's good for you and the business.
30:03
Then you don't have to charge as much honestly like that.
30:06
It just it does change the economics.
30:08
And so as long as you can be profitable, as long as you can
30:10
do the things that you need to do, let's say you're at your
30:14
business is theoretically on paper worth 50 million today.
30:17
And adding that extra customer at a discount from the
30:20
competitor makes it worth 51 million.
30:22
And you'll, you'll take that because you don't have to worry
30:24
about it being worth $2,000,000 incrementally because you don't
30:28
have to get to the 500 million, let's say.
30:30
So it is interesting how it like just even those dynamics can
30:33
really shift the. Which is true, Jeremiah, but
30:37
also, like the brand plays a very important part in you
30:43
having something that reaches 50 million.
30:44
ER, it has to be defensible because, you know, let's face
30:48
it, we are all very smart people.
30:50
Even the competitors. I have like a lot of respect for
30:52
the people I compete with. They're all like incredibly
30:55
smart. Like outside of work, I'll be
30:56
like friends with them. I'll chill with them or yeah, we
31:00
are competing in the battlefield, but they're
31:01
incredibly smart. So everyone's coming after these
31:04
dollars and if you're positioning in the market is the
31:08
cheaper alternative. Someone with a half ass product
31:11
saying like, oh, I'm even cheaper will will be a threat to
31:15
your business, right. So when when you when you go to
31:17
market and you're like looking for running shoes, you'll buy
31:20
Nike, you'll buy Puma, not because you're the best product.
31:23
You're probably not even verifying.
31:24
There's like a local guy that's selling at half the price.
31:27
You don't have the time to like really evaluate, but that's the
31:30
brand perception, right. So we, we have to be very
31:33
careful of not, you know, taking too much advantage.
31:37
It's it's good in the short term, but on the long term it
31:39
will make the business not defensible.
31:41
And I guess my point more is that it's a, it's a lever that
31:44
you can, if you can pull that lever and you have that ability,
31:47
then you should go ahead and use it like there's no, there's no
31:51
downside to you to do that where there would be a downside
31:53
potentially to somebody else to, to absolutely.
31:57
But I also like businesses like Slack or Notion, which have like
32:00
unlimited time. They've kept the pricing so
32:02
affordable. The pricing is like so
32:04
affordable that you can almost, you know, call it a Moat because
32:09
you know, you're bringing like so much product, keeping it like
32:11
dirt cheap at $10 per seat. It becomes very difficult for a
32:16
competitor to like build so much software and then undercut your
32:20
own price. Like it will never ever make
32:23
enough sense for them. So, so I also see like if your
32:26
margins are don't leave opportunities for others and if
32:29
there is unlimited time you can make a great business out of it.
32:33
I do see it at a very big mode. I hate it when people talk like
32:38
these are all like very like not smart people.
32:41
But when people were like oh like I only pay $20.00 for slack
32:46
and then your thing is like this much money.
32:48
I'm like not the same thing dude.
32:52
Like, like you don't think that if I could have slack, I would,
32:57
I would have slack. Like, like, do you think I'm
33:00
richer than Slack? It's the craziest thing.
33:04
It's like the I'm just like, how did someone come up, like come
33:08
up with that? But it is just like, Oh yeah.
33:10
Like, oh, it's software, It's an app.
33:11
It's just, it's just crazy. Yeah, yeah.
33:15
I think Zach is getting like the best breed of customers.
33:18
Like the way he speaks about them so passionately, You know,
33:22
I'm not jealous of. I don't envy Jack Zach for the
33:26
customers he's having. Everything's a bell curve, you
33:28
know? Yeah, yeah.
33:30
I think there's a misconception as well that there's only really
33:32
two participants in the market. There's the more and the better,
33:35
right, Somebody who's doing something better, it costs more,
33:37
providing supply for merchant market demands.
33:39
And then there's somebody who makes more of something right,
33:42
creates supply for huge market demands.
33:44
But you can be both, right? I mean, I don't know, Slack is a
33:47
great example. Netflix is a great example.
33:50
There's software out there that's not very expensive, that
33:52
is just better than the rest. And yeah, I think it's pretty
33:56
cool to occupy that space. I think, though, you're right on
33:59
that. That doesn't stop you from being
34:01
put in the same competition in the mind of the customer as the
34:05
cheap alternatives. But a discerning customer is
34:07
going to see, actually, this is a product that's delivering way
34:11
above the price point, right? They're going to see, hey, wait,
34:14
this is not just affordable. I've had you a lot better,
34:17
right? Has all these features that I
34:18
want, these emerging features that I also want to pay more
34:21
for, right? The reality on software is that
34:24
the trend is that software becomes less expensive, right?
34:28
Like you, you get more for your money.
34:30
That is the trend. And technology and generally
34:32
it's not just software. Yeah.
34:36
Just think about like the first computer I ever had versus like
34:39
what I get now. For the same price, you you get
34:42
100 times better machine, right. And software is ultimately the
34:47
same thing is happening. So yeah, it's it's, I think the
34:54
Slack example is a really good example in that context too.
34:57
Yeah. I also feel like, you know, if
34:59
you look at the traditional ways of like valuing SAS businesses,
35:03
it's SAS businesses get like way higher multiples than ECOM
35:07
businesses, right? Like by order of like 5 or 6.
35:11
And the whole theory behind that is that, hey, all the money is
35:15
going in R&D. If the SAS company decides to
35:18
switch, switch on the tap and make money, they can.
35:21
But I think that power is sort of gone away.
35:24
Like if, if you know like a good SAS business with 80% gross
35:28
margin, 20% COGS, what you're really counting in COGS is the
35:31
infrastructure and the payment gateway fees and customer
35:34
support. Rest all is what do you say like
35:37
R&D and payroll, I would like to, you know, counter that, that
35:41
that was applicable like a decade ago when you could be
35:44
like a sales force and Zenders that does not innovate and
35:46
continue to raise prices. That was applicable.
35:49
But for like a lot of the new generation SAS apps, you have to
35:52
spend an incredible amount of R&D just to stay afloat, like
35:55
just to stay in business, right. Like we have to build like 10s
35:58
of integrations, dozens of integrations and that doesn't
36:01
get counted as COGS, it's counted as R&D.
36:04
But in my opinion, it's not R&D, it's just the price to stay
36:08
alive. So I think there's going to be
36:10
like some sort of adjustment which I think has already
36:13
happened on how you values as businesses because it's it's
36:16
become more competitive. The general rule of thumb that I
36:19
talk about internally with our team is that if you want to keep
36:21
a customer, I'd absolutely you want to make sure that this
36:24
person stays with you forever. You need to be able to deliver
36:29
them something new every six months.
36:32
And that's not true of every single customer, right?
36:35
But I think that's, that's kind of the, the way that I look at
36:39
it is like if I want to guarantee, if I, if I was going
36:41
to going to try to guarantee 100% retention, which is not
36:43
possible because there's other factors, right?
36:46
But if that was my goal, my plan needs to be that I can deliver
36:50
them something new and better every six months.
36:54
And if you don't, then you enter into this mode of like
36:58
eventually they're going to leave.
37:00
And so that's kind of the way that I look at it, It turns out
37:05
that's actually really hard to do too, because it's like what
37:09
what people don't understand is like building new features is
37:11
very easy, maintaining, tuning, doing all those things.
37:15
The features you have is, is the hard part.
37:17
That's where all the cost comes. And that's where all of the
37:19
challenge exists. Scaling things that have been
37:22
built, right? Those are the hard parts, not
37:25
the actual building something new.
37:27
And so I think what happens a lot of times with SAS companies
37:30
that we start out and it's very easy to build new features
37:32
because you don't have any customers, you have nobody to
37:34
maintain, nobody to support. And then the more customers you
37:37
add, the harder it becomes to, to get to that point.
37:40
So you end up in this state where you're not adding a whole
37:43
lot of new things. And that's where I like I'm, I'm
37:45
having taken over a business that's been in this context.
37:49
It's interesting to see because you have every, every customer
37:52
has a, a window of time at which like their relationship with you
37:57
is going to end if you don't deliver them something new.
37:59
So I think like to your point, I'm not like it's not infinite
38:04
that relationship with that customer, it's going to end.
38:07
And I think typically, like if you're not delivering new value,
38:10
I think it's only a couple of years that you can get out of a
38:12
person. Like that's what your, your LTV
38:14
should be expected as. Like if you looked at all of the
38:17
customers that you have, you probably have like a Max 2 year,
38:22
maybe not Max, but like approximately 2 year LTV on
38:25
those. If you're not delivering
38:27
something new and that time starts as soon as you stop, I,
38:31
I'd say within like, you know, six months of delivering the new
38:33
thing. That's kind of the way I see it.
38:35
And I, I don't know that that's, I don't know how many hard
38:38
numbers to back that up, but that's what it seems like to me
38:40
at least. And it's probably different in
38:42
different ecosystems too, but at least in this ecosystem, I think
38:45
that's got to be your expectation.
38:47
That is 100% the truth and I think it applies in pretty much
38:50
every market. I mean, we can definitely point
38:52
out examples where that might not be the case.
38:54
Like Netflix largely speaking is the same product.
38:58
They just have to put out, I guess, maybe new content onto
39:01
the platform, but the product itself is pretty much the same.
39:04
But that content is critical, right?
39:05
Netflix doesn't sell like a video player, right?
39:08
They sell like content, Accessible content.
39:10
Right. Yeah.
39:11
So I think maybe Netflix is not a great example.
39:14
Maybe something like a Slack or even a customer support app,
39:17
something that you have to use on a daily basis.
39:19
You're not expecting new features.
39:21
It's just a way of life. Particularly applicable in the
39:23
case of no, from my point of view, because unless and until
39:27
you're delivering like new insights or new value, they're
39:30
not going to see value. Like, you know, like if you were
39:33
to take like my personality test and tell me like, hey, here are
39:36
your blind spots. This is where you need to
39:37
improve and I improve till I reach like a state that I feel
39:42
comfortable. Then after that, that feedback
39:44
is going to be redundant for me. So unless and until I get new
39:47
insights, you know, it will be difficult to like keep on or
39:51
unless like I'm continuously improving and I want to see the
39:54
results of those experiments. That's when the product will
39:57
become sticky. So it's it's very true in in
40:00
certain cases. I think it, yeah, I think it
40:03
could be more true. I think that your competitors
40:05
smell the margin, right? And as soon as you you're doing
40:09
something that makes customers happy that you can make money
40:12
from, and no one knows it's better than Zach, they're going
40:16
to copy you, right? And the supply is going to get
40:18
saturated in relationship demand.
40:20
They might even do it better sometimes, right?
40:23
And then if you're not making something new that meets
40:26
emerging demands, then how are you going to stay up to date?
40:29
Because your competitors are, they're going to copy exactly
40:31
what you do. They're going to offer it
40:33
cheaper eventually, right? If not just one, maybe 10 or
40:37
100. And then what do you have to
40:39
for? For your customers to actually
40:41
stay with you, right? They can save money if they go
40:43
elsewhere and they can get better features.
40:45
Yeah, absolutely. I think sometimes it's also
40:50
about like adoption, so you can launch new things in a very, and
40:54
I, I, I guess like, I have a question for all of you.
40:56
Like how do you counter shown where you have like a ton of
41:01
like small customers that you're not really communicating with?
41:04
But if you just like randomly survey them or randomly get on
41:07
calls with them, they're churning for very petty reasons.
41:13
Like, oh, I, you know, I'm getting this reason, I'm getting
41:16
this feature and I'm like, you have that here.
41:18
Like, you know, so he's like, OK, I won't churn then.
41:20
So I'm like, OK, I spoke with this guy and I was able to
41:23
retain him because he said like, oh, I want this insight, I want
41:27
this capability. I want this, I'm like, I'll I'll
41:29
give you these three. And I understood your objective.
41:32
I'll guarantee the outcome because we have something even
41:35
better. So I told him this and I'm like,
41:37
I'm not trying to retain. I'm just here to like understand
41:39
as a CEO why people churn and how we can prevent it.
41:42
So there's no obligation. And he ended up staying back.
41:45
But I'm like, I spoke with one guy.
41:46
I can't talk to like all of them.
41:48
So I don't know how you guys do it at scale.
41:53
You don't do it at scale is the answer.
41:55
Yeah, I so so how, how do you count with it?
41:58
I do think AI will help, but the problem ultimately is you need
42:01
somebody's attention. And I think that that's the hard
42:04
part is if I can't get 30 minutes of your time, I can't
42:08
help you, right? And it's like that's, that is,
42:11
or, or maybe it's not even 30 minutes, but it's like there's
42:13
a, the specific action you have to go do it.
42:15
It's going to take you 5 minutes.
42:16
I know my like myself, I'm not going to go do that thing.
42:19
I can't expect my customers are going to do it right.
42:21
And so I think, yeah, I agree with Zach.
42:23
What you can't really do it at scale.
42:25
What 1 interesting note on that on the no side, we have a like a
42:31
health score that we look at and we actually haven't done a whole
42:34
lot with this yet. But the idea is basically
42:37
there's a score. A perfect score doesn't actually
42:40
mean that you're doing everything.
42:41
It means that you're using all of our key features at like a
42:47
moderate level. Let's say you're, you're
42:49
actually using them like you're not just doing one thing, you're
42:52
doing a couple of things. And one of those key features,
42:54
only 4% of our paying customers have a perfect score in that
42:57
context. And so 96% are not actually
43:01
using. I think it's a little bit higher
43:02
now, but like when I was looking at these numbers and for setting
43:06
this up, 96% of our paying customers, we're not even like
43:10
using our product to its capabilities and the ones who
43:14
are using entire capabilities never cancel like they are,
43:17
they're locked in, they never go anywhere.
43:20
They're usually you know really well established brands who
43:25
really understand what they're doing.
43:26
They have lots of people that they put on different things and
43:28
so we solve a lot of problems for them.
43:30
And so in that context were really sticky.
43:31
But for the other 96% there's like those are all the churn
43:36
rest ultimately because I'm not actually doing all things they
43:38
could be do and not there's obviously the levels with them
43:40
that right. But you're talking about like 24
43:43
out of 25 customers aren't doing the the things that we consider
43:47
to be like fully using the platform.
43:50
It's kind of wild, so. Well, some.
43:51
Some feature building also has more impact on the decision
43:56
making cycle than it does on like the usability and retention
43:59
cycle. Like there's some stuff that
44:01
like, like, I know for myself that like people will not use.
44:05
Yeah. But like I also know that it's
44:07
like consistently something that comes up in objections during
44:10
like sales calls. It's because people have like
44:12
ideas like, well, I want to do this or like use this platform
44:15
with it. I mean, I know you never will,
44:16
but like you kind of just have to like build it because like,
44:19
you know that like that exists in like the decision making
44:22
process, right? You can't tell someone they're
44:24
ever going to use that. You just be like, yeah, we have
44:26
it. And I, I also think that like,
44:31
if the one thing I know to be true is that the thing that
44:33
someone found you for is usually the thing they love you for the
44:37
most. And that never changes.
44:38
Like it's very rare that that ever will change.
44:43
And I think that's like a human thing more than anything 'cause
44:46
like you solved the first problem and you could solve a
44:48
bunch of problems like after that, but like it, they'll be
44:52
like decreased levels of like amazement and wow, that's.
44:58
True. And most of the time, if you get
45:00
rid of like, let's just say you even got someone to transcend
45:04
all the way up the ladder being like fully like loving
45:06
everything. If you got rid of the first
45:08
thing, they churn immediately. But if you got rid of like any
45:12
of these other things, they might still stick around.
45:14
And so it's like a weird like balancing act.
45:16
I think of like sticking with like your core competency and
45:19
just like making sure that people are using it for the
45:21
thing they came for initially. And I think that's what matters
45:25
more than anything is just like, did they come and use it?
45:30
Because I, I've never like logged into a piece of software
45:33
and been like, I haven't clicked on this tab.
45:37
Like, should I really be paying for all of this?
45:39
Like it's only ever been like, I haven't logged into there for
45:42
like months. Like let's cancel.
45:44
I, I wanted to throw something out there and wanted to take
45:47
like all of your views. I know that all of us are trying
45:51
to like integrate AI into our businesses or solve problems,
45:56
but do you guys ever wonder whether we're thinking too
45:59
small? You know, like you have this
46:02
like, you know, superpower or the Super capability and you're
46:04
making it do this like this really minute task.
46:06
Like Jeremiah, you, you, you alluded something on the lines
46:09
of like, oh, you can use AI to like stop churn, right?
46:14
And if you could crack something like that, why shouldn't it be a
46:17
product that you're using internally and not a SAS product
46:19
that you can, you know, sell and make like hundreds of millions
46:23
if you're able to like automate customer success work.
46:26
So sometimes I live in that constant like formal like hey am
46:29
I thinking too small in like in a pre AI world where I should be
46:36
like thinking completely from the ground up on how something
46:39
could be like reinvented. Maybe.
46:42
But like inherently all of us are in the position we're we're
46:46
in right now because we don't think that big.
46:51
Like realistically, like, you know what I'm saying?
46:54
Like if, if we were the guys that like thought super, super
46:58
big and only hit home runs, like we wouldn't be doing what we're
47:02
doing right now. Or we'd be academics and we
47:04
wouldn't be doing anything. Yeah.
47:06
That's that's unfair. I shouldn't say it that way.
47:08
We would be researching, we wouldn't be building is what I
47:10
mean. Yeah, like I think there's a
47:12
mix, right? Like you have to like
47:14
understand, like I think it's, I think if they're like good
47:17
thought exercises, but then I think there's like a certain
47:20
level of just like pure self-awareness.
47:24
Yeah. Being like thinking that big
47:27
might not be the best outcome for me, but it could be like,
47:33
but like I I wouldn't use that as like, because if that were to
47:36
be true, I would get rid of the business I have right now.
47:39
Yeah. True.
47:41
I Yeah. I agree.
47:43
There's a piece of me that like, I don't actually want AI to
47:47
become capable of what we're talking about in that context.
47:51
I think, like the more I use AI, the more I realize that AI is
47:54
limited by my own capabilities or the capabilities of whoever
47:57
built the tool that I'm using in that context, the AI tool that
48:00
I'm using. And I actually think that
48:05
there's a good chance that that's all AI ever is able to
48:09
do, right? Is that like, it's only as good
48:13
and capable as the, the person who's training the model
48:16
essentially, or the, the inputs, both the inputs and also the,
48:20
the trainer of the, the model? And I actually hope that that's
48:23
what AI ends up being ultimately, because I, I think
48:26
there's, there's a, there's a difference between like, I want
48:29
to be able to do things more efficiently and I want to
48:32
entirely replace humans from the equation.
48:34
And I don't actually ever want to get to the entirely replacing
48:37
humans from the equation standpoint.
48:39
I will say, like, from my standpoint, I actually just
48:42
don't want AI to be that good. I wanted to make humans better
48:45
and not replace humans. But we'll see what actually
48:47
happens. So yeah.
48:50
Sure, I got to hop off for a dove call, but it was easy.
48:53
Meeting, meeting, you meet. And yeah, it's another episode.
48:59
Yeah, and I guess Rashad was he's he's in France right now.
49:02
So I don't think that's a good excuse.
49:03
It should be night time for him. I don't, I don't see why he's
49:07
not free for us. But anyway.
49:09
Yeah, he's he's blowing some of that 45,000,000 he just got.
49:12
He's not. He's not spending it, you see.
49:14
I mean, it costs a little bit to get into the event, but he
49:16
posted a video of his hotel room.
49:18
Did you guys see it? A.
49:21
Week What's happened? Like if he needs help spending
49:23
the money we can obviously. That's what I said.
49:25
I was like, dude, if you want to like, you know, a couple million
49:28
a year, I might be interested in a job, just let me know so.
49:31
Yeah. Lot lower stress, higher pay.
49:35
Well, maybe not. Who knows?
49:37
I heard the episode, I think you were asking for a million.
49:40
You're already up to 2,000,001 episode later.
49:43
Yeah. Was that what it was?
49:46
Yeah, you asked for a million. I remember you.
49:50
Just throw me some wild numbers and I'll consider it.
49:52
Let's see this. Can you guys see my screen?
49:55
This is this hotel room. Yeah, take a video.
49:58
I hope I. Hope he moved since this, but
50:00
you can. See over here there's like a the
50:03
floor that's elevated. Holy jank.
50:06
And. Right over here is the bathroom.
50:08
Look at this. The toilet is literally on a
50:10
block and the shower. Open the door.
50:12
So you take a shower and the water spills out into the
50:14
bathroom. Then there's a random cleaning
50:16
appliance over there. Super jank, right?
50:18
You walk in and it's the kitchen, and then there's this
50:23
divider that basically separates the living room from the
50:29
bedroom. Obviously it's just a made-up
50:30
divider. This air conditioner barely
50:32
works and then the bed is just on on a box of two there.
50:40
Oh, and of course the window like it's directly into other.
50:45
People's heart, it's not it's good.
50:46
Maybe maybe maybe he's asking his EA to book 2 rooms like one
50:52
for like couple $1000 a night, one for like 200.
50:55
And when the EA is like what is the $200 room for?
50:57
Oh, that's for my TikTok video. It's.
51:00
True. That's a good.
51:02
I'm just going to walk in, record 1 TikTok video and go
51:05
back to my $2000 suit. Well, hey, thanks for thanks for
51:12
coming out. It was fun.
51:14
Thanks. For having me.
51:15
Nice meeting you, Jack. You too.
51:18
Let's have you on again sometime if you want to.
51:20
Actually, actually thank you all.
51:22
Right. Cool.
51:23
Have a great day. Thanks guys.