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Danielle Rudic on AI, Sustainability & Custom Travel Experiences · Reframe First

• Oleksij Rak: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Reframe First, the podcast where we have honest conversations with business leaders about industry trends, about challenges, the bets they making Danielle Rudic: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Friend First, the podcast where we have honest conversation with business leaders about industry plans, about challenges, about the way I making Oleksij Rak: and so So I'm Alexey, I'm the host and me welcome today our today's guest, Danielle Rudic: and so on. So I'm Alexi, I'm the first and let me welcome today our today's Oleksij Rak: Danielle Rudik, VP of Marketing and Product at Travelife. Hi Danielle, it's really great having you Danielle Rudic: guest, Danielle Rudik, VP of Marketing and Product at ServerLive. Hi Danielle, it's really great hearing Oleksij Rak: here. Danielle Rudic: you here. Thank you so much Alexi for giving us the opportunity to exchange a few ideas and to say a few words about us. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, so Travel Live is actually our first DMC that we are talking with. DMC being destination management company. So Travel Live basically is a collection of trusted destination management companies across like about 10, 10, right? Mediterranean destinations. So, maybe could you tell us ⁓ ⁓ you do at Travel Live, what your role is, ⁓ the mission of the company is like more about? Danielle Rudic: 10 destinations. So when we had our initial conversations, when you invited us to come in and to share our thoughts on where travel is and tourism is right now, you were very honest and you said that you were mostly talking to either tech companies or platforms. So the platforms that expire, that aggregate, transact, and we as a DMC, and I'm so happy to be the first ones on your roster. We are on the other side of the equation to say so. We are the ones that execute the services on the ground. so the helping hands or little Santas, elves and helpers in the shop, we're the ones that put... an itinerary together and also make sure that it's flawlessly executed on the ground that every service that your client has asked for is delivered the way that it was presented to the client. So that would be something that a destination management company does. We work with ⁓ travel advisors, so we don't work with general public. We're the ones that help advisors with our local knowledge. and with the expertise of the team that we have. Destination management companies usually specialize in one or two destinations that ⁓ natural partners. So let's say Spain and Portugal, ⁓ Slovenia, Montenegro. So something that ⁓ and geographically makes sense together. But Oleksij Rak: Thank Danielle Rudic: Just like tech companies that were always trying to be disruptors and change the landscape, we decided to do the same thing when it comes to destination management companies. And just a side note, anybody that is in tourism and doesn't specifically know of the term destination management company, ⁓ consortia and ⁓ leaders also call it an onsite ⁓ destination specialist. ⁓ anybody that is focused on delivering actual on the ground services and expertise in a country is going to be a DMC or something similar. Now to the disrupting part. We started in Greece in 2001 because our group president and founder, Greek American from Kansas City, she used to be a travel advisor. And she started this whole story. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Danielle Rudic: as somebody that was trying to put together itineraries for American, Canadian, Australian clients the other side of the world. And these were the nineties. So ⁓ you roll the movie, the film back and remember how much could we do with internet back in the nineties, could you check availability online? Oleksij Rak: Nothing. Yeah. Danielle Rudic: How long did it take to get a response to an email? Because even emails were not a part of that everyday culture where you were checking them on your phone and every waking minute of your day. for that lived in the US, ⁓ sold Mediterranean with the time difference, this was an insurmountable challenge. ⁓ She not sleep. She spent her nights on the phone trying to call everybody. In to bridge this, she decided to move her family from Kansas City to Athens in Greece for a sole purpose of being close to the product. To be able to, you know, hop in the car, go and check a hotel, talk to a guide, talk to a driver to see their level of English, how well they know the destination. But the second she did that, single advisor she ever met ⁓ the US started calling her and asking, Hey, we heard you were in Greece. Can you help with our clients as well? So that whole idea that she was going to open a very small boutique B2C company to help her clients very quickly kind of got a life of its own. And it turned into that first DMC that we opened in Greece, where the mission and the idea was to really give the very best of the country where we are. to a travel advisor and the end client that is coming to the destination. But then again, I blame travel advisors for everything that we have done. They then started asking for extensions. It's like, yeah, I have a honeymoon couple that's going to Greece, but can you add five nights in Italy, five nights in Spain, in Portugal, in Croatia? I mean, you're there, it's around the corner. It's going to be easy for you. Oleksij Rak: Mm. Danielle Rudic: And the more they started asking for a specific destination, this is where the disrupter part comes in. Instead of just subcontracting an existing DMC in that second country, we decided to go in and build our own team there from the ground up, emulating or copying exactly how we did things in Greece. in 2000... Oleksij Rak: So we have 10 teams right now from what I understand. Danielle Rudic: So that's how we exactly over 25 years, we kept going into destination by destination, building our own teams and ended up with 10. The reason being is we really wanted to make sure that no matter where we are, we have the same level of service, that we could stand behind the product that we were offering. over ⁓ it itself into our sustainability mission as well. We discussed if you remember, when we were preparing for the interview. sustainability plays a role in what it is that we do. ⁓ if we think about it, our clients from where they are, because we work with ⁓ Americas, we work with Australia, the first thing they need to do in order to visit our destinations is hop on a plane. Is that ⁓ ⁓ or ecologically sound? Not really, we really can't help that. We rely on the air companies and their attempts and efforts to minimize their carbon footprint. But what we've decided to do instead is ensure that at least when it comes to finances, when it comes to money, when it comes to development, that we work with small mom and pop companies that are in every city in every little village that we do cover so that their income, the earnings is not spread across the big players. Instead, it stays within the community and it helps the community develop further. ⁓ Another part of that kind of disruption. Oleksij Rak: And, and to the. Yeah, with regards to the companies, like you mentioned, you're planning some itineraries and you're working with small local companies, but what product do you offer? What was that? Is it like stay? Is it some excursions? Is it like cruise ships? the total package? ⁓ Danielle Rudic: So the total package, depends from DMC to DMC. So some DMCs will only do all or nothing. ⁓ they will take care of absolutely everything for your client, if you are a travel advisor, or for you, if you are a client, ⁓ the moment you set foot into a country, so the moment you land, ⁓ you get on the plane to go back home. So this is going to be from transfers from your airport to the hotel, all of your hotels, all of your tours, all of your transport from one destination to another, whether it's going to be train or rail, if you are, let's say in Italy, Switzerland or Spain, or a destination that does offer fantastic rail connections, ferries, if you are in Greece, any kind of domestic flights or intra Europe flights. So really ⁓ single element ⁓ ⁓ itinerary ⁓ during your trip that you need. With us, that's our bread and butter, like with every other DMC. So this is mostly what we do. But we also offer snippets, so little pieces, because what advisors are finding these days, they're finding it difficult to piece together an itinerary if they've already have the hotels. A lot of clients are using points. A lot of clients, let's say they belong to an airline loyalty program and they want to keep their medallion or their level. So they're using the airline to book the hotels. So why kind of cast those out? We actually will do land only ⁓ just a couple of tours and transfers or with the booming cruise industry. Another opportunity opened up there. A lot of clients want to combine the cruise and land. So they want to spend a couple of days before they go on a cruise ship in a destination, or they want to extend their cruise stay again with a couple of days on land ⁓ in their end point. So this is also something that we can provide and help with. Again, whether they just need a couple of tours and transfers, or if they need a hotel and all of the services during pre and post. And another thing that advisors are very happy about, and this is in no way, shape, or form criticism to cruise companies, but ⁓ what have noticed ⁓ is advisors and clients want They're sure experiences. So the experiences on land that they have when they touch into a port to be curated for them. They want something bespoke, something that is built based on their passions and interests and not just taken off the shelf because the cruise line is offering it. So this is another thing that we are developing very quickly and very strongly. ⁓ is a whole line of bespoke experiences. in all of the destinations where we are, whether it's for ocean cruises or river cruises. ⁓ advisors love it because those experiences are actually commissionable. Whatever is offered by the cruise ship, they don't get commission on it. So their hard work sometimes does get unrecognized. We are just making sure that ⁓ do support the advisors ⁓ single step of the way and reward them. for their work and for bringing their client to us. Oleksij Rak: Okay, and advisors, are they employed by a company or are they like third party advisors that are using services provided by your DMCs? Danielle Rudic: the virus out of the employees. So when it comes to our landscape, so where we ⁓ our services, ⁓ advisors are usually either a part of a bigger travel agency or they are a part of a host agency that then supports ⁓ ⁓ agencies underneath. ⁓ ⁓ way or another, either in the second tier or third tier, ⁓ belong to one of the luxury consortia's. is either Signature or Virtuoso, Internova, Ensemble, ⁓ you will find anything from 10,000 to 100,000 travel advisors that are in one way or another connected to those big consortia. ⁓ these consortia play a very, very big role, ⁓ just ⁓ getting advisors in touch or in contact with suppliers like us. but they also provide a very valuable network it comes to travel advisor education, ⁓ them with marketing opportunities and really making their day-to-day operations a lot easier. So they're not a lone island in this huge sea ⁓ the travel industry. They do have this very, very big support of an established now. Oleksij Rak: But like who is like building this packaged offer for the client, for the end client? Because if you're providing like some luxury travel options, like each client is individual, right? Because wants to build the package. Is it you or like your companies ⁓ is it advisor? And ⁓ second part is like who is guiding that client? Because like luxury travel requires 24-7 guidance. Danielle Rudic: Yes, exactly. ⁓ Oleksij Rak: Quite likely. Danielle Rudic: So this is a really good question. And I don't think even the general public is aware of the difference. How does all of this happen? Travel advisor, so, you I would like to stress this term advisor. Advisor is not a travel agent. And we will talk about that later. ⁓ So advisors, they sell the world. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Danielle Rudic: They can't know every corner, every nook and cranny of every part of our beautiful planet. Their job is to connect themselves with local partners that will be able to support them in delivering exceptional services. What advisors do is they are out there, they're expanding their network of clients who come to a travel advisor asking for Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Danielle Rudic: advice. So a client will come to a travel advisor and say, Hey, I want to go to Italy let's September this year. This is my budget. ⁓ These my passions and interests. This is what I'm really interested in doing. This is what I don't want to do because I, ⁓ it's not within what interested in. And then the advisor will come to us and they will send us what we call a brief. They will send us all the details about the client, what they want, how long they want to stay, what their preferences are, whether it's four star or five star. And then we kind of roll up our sleeves and we get to work and we will build that itinerary that will go to a travel advisor, white labeled. So it's just going to have their name and their logo on it. And the advisor then sends this to his client and they will go through it point by point either alone or we will hop on the call with the advisor and their client to be able to clarify any kind of ⁓ questions if they come up or any details that an advisor again because they're not in destination ⁓ not know. So this is that kind of pyramid. ⁓ advisor is there to get the request from a client. They send the request to us. We build it based on what was in that brief or an instruction manual. And then it's about fine tuning the details until we get it perfect for that client to book it, to pay for it, and then finally to travel in a destination. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I see. And who is guiding the client later? Like when the client arrived to Greece, who is working? Danielle Rudic: Who is guiding the client later? So when clients arrive to Greece, is our job to take over. So we have that 24-7 support. Anything that comes up during travel, whether they want to add an experience, because ⁓ they start with, we don't want a lot of handholding, we want a lot of free time, but then they get to a destination and they want everything. we forgot a boat trip. ⁓ we forgot a cooking class. ⁓ So always somebody there. 24 7 at their back and call they can call they can whatsapp they can messages if they want to ⁓ they do have a dedicated person that is hand holding them throughout their entire stay ⁓ on the other hand Remember, we're working with the other side of the world It's usually 2 3 o'clock in the morning. ⁓ agent won't be able to assist first of all, they're not in destination. They don't know the ground operations to be able to respond quickly. And that is the responsibility of the DMC to have that 24-7 customer support so that the advisor can have their eight-hour night's sleep and not have to worry about. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I understand. That's an interesting combination of travel advisor, of DMC support person and the client through triangle. With regards to making this trip possible for the client, making the itinerary, you mentioned cooking classes, it's quite granular, I would say. How much effort does it take to cook it for end customers? Danielle Rudic: That's an interesting combination like Travel Advisor and DMC. In regards to like, like making this treat for possible for supply, like making the itinerary, you mentioned like cooking classes, so it's quite granular, I would say. How much effort does it take to do this, to cook it for all the customers? For all of the ingredients that are necessary to cook up an itinerary, you... You have to go all the way back into Oleksij Rak: The effect. Danielle Rudic: building a DMC. So the first responsibility is to actually know and to contact and to have great relationships with partners that are delivering these services. So the first thing is local knowledge. You need to know what is available. You need to also know these people by name, you know, you need to know their families. You need to test this particular service. to know whether it's the level that your clients are expecting. So this is the first step, that local knowledge, local presence, to be able to even have it in your cookbook. second step is, what is missing? Is a particular experience that you as a local know might but it just doesn't exist yet? So it's, again, talking to those local suppliers. and creating the experiences that are not on the map yet. So that's step two. Step three is training, retraining your staff and your travel planners so that they are always aware of what is available within every country. Because your clients, let's say they want a boat tour, but they are not very you know, the sea bearing people that they don't have their sea legs. want to do island hopping, but you know what? I get very seasick. So even with this, it's knowledge of what kind of boat are you using for that particular ⁓ boat trip that you want to do? Is it wide enough? Is ⁓ tall enough? Does it have a lot of sea splash? ⁓ they going to feel every single wave along the way ⁓ are they going to have a really comfortable ride? ⁓ this is an eight hour day trip on the boat. Do you think it's a little bit too much for them considering that, you know, they can't really handle the sea that well? Is it too far? Is it too much of an open sea? So it's not just about knowing what's out there, but really knowing the details of every single tour, what every step is going to look like and if it fits the client that is going to be out there. So This also is the difference again, between a travel agent and a travel advisor. agent might just look at, I don't know, get your guide via tour. Again, nothing against these platforms. They're amazing, but they don't give you enough information on what you exactly going to experience. ⁓ And of advising and what happens to you as a travel advisor, you're not advising. Oleksij Rak: on the same details. Danielle Rudic: You're just selling. And that's the difference between a travel agent and a travel advisor. really need to be there. ⁓ that's in the luxury travel segment to advise and guide the client because the clients don't know what they don't know. If that makes sense, something might look perfectly fine. And I love it when advisors come to us and say, ⁓ clients want to do this. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Danielle Rudic: because their best friends did it or their neighbors did it or somebody in their family did it. But then you read the itinerary that that other person did and you read the passions and interests and the do not dos of this person that's about to travel. And you see that they don't align. one had a lot of ⁓ classes or wine tours and this particular client has a lot of food sensitivities or they don't drink. So Will you offer the same tours or will you turn on your advisor cap and start advising and giving advice on what kind of services will fit them based on what it is that they love and like to do? Oleksij Rak: It sounds to me like a lot of really like manual labor and a lot of like getting deep into details and knowing these details. Like I have quite some experience with online travel agencies and what they're trying to do is to integrate and automate as much as possible. Like the more they integrate with other third party providers, the more they can like package together. Like this is their bread and butter. But on the other hand, if you're looking from the other... Danielle Rudic: I mean ⁓ that Oleksij Rak: from the other side of the coin, from the flip of the coin. Destination management companies need to know in detail every single piece of the trip. So I wonder what can be automated if there is room for automation. Because it sounds like a lot of... Danielle Rudic: Yeah, it is always going to be quite manual because nothing replaces human knowledge ⁓ the actual fact that you are on the ground ⁓ the fact that you have tested this and you can stand behind the product. But can be automated ⁓ is, know, the day-to-day processes. We can automate ⁓ our ⁓ efficiency. We can use AI tools or any kind of digital tools to help our research, our internal processes support. even built our own proprietary IT system to be able to handle the way that we work because we could not find anything on the market ⁓ supported all of our departments, all of our little internal systems and processes, again, because we did disrupt the DMC market, because it wasn't just about building itineraries within one destination. It is now building itineraries on the same level in 10 destinations with cross coordination between local teams, because we do a lot. of country combination itineraries. This is one of the biggest emerging trends that we're not seeing go away anytime soon. So from an advisor perspective, if they were to put together an itinerary to flow seamlessly across four countries, usually they need to work with four different partners. This is a lot of email noise, a lot of, oh my God, who did I ask about this? From the client perspective, It's, it's Wednesday. Which country am I in? Which customer support number am I calling today based on where I am? So what we did is we have 10 teams that all work within the same system using the same ⁓ same formula, same IT system, so that ⁓ is seamless and streamlined. And this is where that automation comes in. It's about working smarter, not harder. but still having that final human element that cannot be replaced no matter how advanced AI becomes. We also discussed this when we were preparing just for some background. ⁓ AI going to make ⁓ advisors obsolete or the need for a DMC? ⁓ there is a way. I mean, of course, you've all tried it. You ⁓ it prompts. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, sure. Danielle Rudic: you want it to get an itinerary, let's say for your Spain, Morocco and Portugal trip, you tell it you have 14 days, how much you want to spend, what you kind of like. But what AI doesn't understand logistics. And this where you as a travel advisor are always going to be needed. And this is where that ground crew and local knowledge is always going to be needed. It's the cultural nuances that cannot understand, ⁓ routing, the pacing, crisis response. ⁓ we can automate processes, but we cannot automate that final human element that will always be needed necessary for travel to be immersive and to have the emotion that you want it to have at the end of the day. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I honestly, I cannot, it's not capable right now to do all of that. if digging into certain... ⁓ Yeah, that's the truth. That's the truth right now. not capable. It's capable to ⁓ into certain detail, like dig like deep into certain detail, but provide all the details that you mentioned, like ⁓ like working hours, know, human touch. Danielle Rudic: It's not fair. I love that right now. love that you say right now. ⁓ Travel. Oleksij Rak: and then there is like all these national barriers and so on and so forth. It just can't handle all of that altogether. Danielle Rudic: You also have to remember the same way AI is changing. is getting better. It's getting more automated. is learning because this is basically what AI does. It is continuously learning. Travel industry is changing as fast ⁓ ⁓ is. New things are coming up. ⁓ are shifting. Seasonalities change. ⁓ there's always going to be, again, the need for that human element, if nothing else, to feed the AI with the necessary elements for it to be able to learn and to grow. It's helped tremendously in raising interest for travel because people can go online, they can research, they can find new ideas, ⁓ ⁓ is going to be needed when it comes down to that human element ⁓ is ⁓ on knowledge, relying on that support on the ground. because it has not improved. AI has not improved the feasibility of travel. And unless you've been to a destination, you don't know that whatever AI has suggested for you includes a 10-hour car ride without any stops, ⁓ it is not taking you to the closest airport. It is taking you hours away. And anybody wants to challenge me on this, they can. but I still maintain that firm stance that human element, it'll take for it to be completely erased and taken out of the equation because people need to rely on us that there to be 100 % sure. The trust is not there. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, you cannot remove human from the equation because what AI agent basically needs is information and tools. there be somebody who is feeding that information and ⁓ somebody is providing those tools. And ⁓ yeah, probably at some certain point of time, AI agent can start recommending, do good enough recommend. But still it needs information and tools and this is like human in the loop who should be ⁓ to provide that. Otherwise it doesn't work. Danielle Rudic: I mean, element to kind of give you a very, very specific example that is so easy to understand ⁓ anybody, even if you're not very tech savvy. ⁓ we are seeing right now ⁓ ⁓ do get a lot of requests with attached pictures, photos of destinations that do not exist. This is what is happening with AI. ⁓ again, this is where that human element comes in. We have requests and I wish that it wasn't happening as often that it's happening. Instead, it's happening more often than we would like to admit. do get a brief or a request from an advisor that came from a client originally, and they will say, our client wants to ⁓ stay in this hotel. And then you see an AI generated photo from Santorini. which you as somebody that is on the island or in Greece knows that doesn't exist. It was AI generated. The same thing, a cave restaurant in Italy that exist kind of not in that scale and definitely not in the location that the clients are saying that it exists. So this is another little element that we now have to fight that we didn't have to fight a couple of years ago. It is again, not about just saying, listen guys, this is fake. It is about ⁓ educating clients and advisors on what to look out for so that they can distinguish whether something is AI generated or it really exists. The lines are being blurred more and more every day. Again, AI ⁓ is inspiration. It is driving that inspiration. Oleksij Rak: . Danielle Rudic: through the roof because everything is so easily accessible, but what it really doesn't scale is as an execution in the end. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, sure. dive out of ⁓ and ⁓ From what we all see is market has changed a lot in recent years. ⁓ ⁓ travel became a necessity. But on the other hand, is Gen Z, which has different expectation of travel, of experiences, and the you approach them, omnichannel experiences. ⁓ Danielle Rudic: It keeps it interesting. Oleksij Rak: that kind of stuff. the world did change. And then there is AI, which is adding uncertainty to the equation. So there is a lot happening. How does it affect you? And what major trends do you see that are affecting the MCs? Danielle Rudic: So I think with everything that you just put in that question, you just answered why AI won't take over anytime soon. Again, there's so much happening so quickly. Things rapidly change overnight. ⁓ for us as a DMC, so the end executors of all of the services and the ones that are actually on the ground, ⁓ it means life is never boring. So that's definitely one thing we always ⁓ kind of have to keep one ear on the ground a finger on the pulse to make that we're always up on all of the trends ⁓ and changing needs. What we are seeing ⁓ is shift of seasonality that is definitely one of the biggest trends in our destination. So we cover Greece, Italy, Croatia, and all of the Balkans. We cover France, Spain, Portugal, Morocco, Turkey, and Egypt. This is Western Europe and the Mediterranean. The one thing that has definitely changed is high season. It's no longer July and August, definitely. This is due to climate change. but we are on the ground and we are seeing how our seasons have changed. Summers have become a lot hotter, they are a lot more humid, and this is not the time where you want to travel, at least not when you're coming from a far away. New seasons are May and June, new high seasons, and the new high season is September and October. And we had to shift. to kind of meet this demand. Europeans still travel in the traditional months when we used to travel because this is when we get our time off. So there's always going to be travel and tourism in July, in August, just not long whole travel. Is it safe to travel? Do we need to change our route? How far the destination where we are traveling to ⁓ area that is currently under any kind of political conflict? ⁓ this ⁓ now also a part of the daily job of any DMC, but also of any travel advisor. Again, we think to the pre-COVID times, it would up for specific areas and regions but it would not have been an essential part of an everyday conversation. Another trend that we are seeing is slower travel, more rail being included, longer travel and country combinations. I did mention it earlier, but we really are seeing it as a huge trend. America, Canada, Australia, because of distance and also because of the time off that they do get during the year. they do want to get as much they can ⁓ of the time that they are going to spend within a continent. ⁓ ⁓ being so well connected and the entire Mediterranean ⁓ means that now they want to add at least two, maybe three, sometimes even four countries within their two week trip or a 20 day trip. ⁓ having the logistics, having the knowledge and having ⁓ support to be able to do it and deliver it very quickly and bring it back to the advisor ⁓ something that is going to kind of keep you top mind of everybody when they are thinking about who to reach out to and who to talk to about building an itinerary like this. Oleksij Rak: Okay, and which of these trends are like the biggest threat for you? Danielle Rudic: Which of these trends are the biggest threat for you? wouldn't call them a threat or of them. ⁓ What would say is that they present challenges. One of biggest challenges, ⁓ especially when comes to the Mediterranean, is the seasonality and the climate change. And this is something ⁓ that has to addressed ⁓ on a much scale. Oleksij Rak: What would you say? Danielle Rudic: So this is not just a challenge for a DMC. This is a challenge for everybody that is involved within the travel industry of that particular country. We all have product that is beautiful and available throughout the year. Most of the destinations are year round destinations. However, we have not the time or invested enough money. to develop those regions or areas that are able to take over during former lower seasons and really put your country on the map to be there as the perfect destination in February, in March. 15 years ago, when it comes to Greece or Croatia, I would really not have seen many requests. to travel to these countries in February or March or November or December, but they're coming in. And we are, I'm not gonna say light years ahead, but years ahead already when it comes to the product that we can offer you in those destination in off season months, because we saw the trend coming. We went in, we talked to the local suppliers, we developed the product to support this, but we still, not just us, but the industry in general, needs the support of hotels, let's say, in this particular instance, ⁓ ferry companies, of airlines, to be able to keep that connectivity so that we can deliver services 12 months a year. Hotels, lot of them, most of them are seasonal because they don't still see the ROI in keeping their properties open longer. But this is where we now need synergy of the elements involved ⁓ the travel industry of a country ⁓ sit down, talk about what can be developed, how we can support that development so that it does become an item that it's on the shelf 12 months a year. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, and with regards to mentioned about hotels and like quite a lot quite a lot of travelers are just like going to booking home or whatever or Airbnb just booking hotel coming to a country and then start looking around like you're offering quite a different like package deal and ⁓ talking about like percentages, ⁓ do you compare like how many travelers are traveling one way versus another? and what's the opportunity to switch them to this package deals. Danielle Rudic: So when we say package deals, there's kind of two ways of looking at it. ⁓ will create a package from start as a DMC. ⁓ On the other hand, you have tour operators that already have pre-packaged deals and kind of put them on the shelf for you to take over. we talk about ⁓ clients that first booked the hotels and then everything else, ⁓ is different type of travel. We are in ⁓ relaxed luxury to ultra lux ⁓ and that means four star all the way up to ultra know, exclusive private planes, helicopters. And within this segment, even the four star clients ⁓ of key in hand solution. They don't want to worry about anything. Whether that room that I wanted is really going to be facing, you know, West or is it going to have full sea view? ⁓ it going to have an old town view? ⁓ want somebody else to already confirm and book exactly what they had in their mind. In most cases, if you're doing this using a platform, if you're doing this using Airbnb or booking com, it's not going to tell you that in order to get to your apartment, you have to climb seven flights of stairs because you saw that it is in Old Town Dubrovnik, but you didn't realize that it was on the fifth level. climbing towards the wall and you're there with your two suitcases because God knows we always overpack trying to get up this really narrow flight of stairs. So what was missing in that equation is local knowledge and somebody to actually guide you and tell you, I don't think this is for you. The same thing happens in Sadorini. It's a bucket list item. wants to go there. Oleksij Rak: And kids, yeah. Danielle Rudic: And then they say, I want to specifically stay in IA, but I want privacy and I don't want any stairs. Those three things don't go together in the same sentence when we are talking about IA and it's our job to tell them, okay, I think this particular hotel or this particular town in Sadorini will work better for you. You will still get EI, you will see it during a day trip or we can take you there as many times as you want so that you can take your sunset photos. But you're not going to be fighting stairs. You're not going to be fighting selfie sticks 24 hours a day. And you're not going to be looking into another person's room. It's not the fault of EI. This is its landscape. This is how the town was built. So this is something that you cannot avoid. It's aligning expectations with reality. And I'm seeing now that a lot of those travelers that you said with Airbnb with I'll book the apartments first and then I'll figure out the rest. ⁓ if they do that for ⁓ accommodation, they are more and more reaching out to travel advisors to help them put together experiences that are really going to immerse them in a location and not just going to be something that they're going to tick off their to-do list because they want that experience to feel like their own. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, yeah, and that's emerging trend with new generations. They want to like experience the place. They don't want to just live there. They want to like experience to the full extent. regards to like... ⁓ Danielle Rudic: They do and everybody wants to experience it differently. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, yeah. With regards to the future plans, you mentioned that you already built a product which is like, you had to write bets and write vision and you built a cross seasonal product which is paying off right now. are your next bets? Where do you see moving and what you're working on right Danielle Rudic: What are your next plans? Where do you see moving and what's your work on that? So what we're working on right now is we're working on extensions. So there are some natural extensions to our particular product that we are developing, but we are not, of course, putting it out there to the public yet because it takes about 18 months to two years to build a DMC at a level where our other DMCs are right now. So we are starting with short experiences. We're starting with pre and post testing the product, introducing new people within those new destinations that are going to be announced within next year. That's one side of the coin. But another thing where we are concentrating ⁓ developing more small group. and semi-private experiences in our existing because what we're seeing with four-star clients and clients that are, I'm not going to say lower budget because that is such a derogatory term. Every budget is great. ⁓ just specialize in a specific budget. So when you are in a four-star budget, sometimes you really cannot have private. But that doesn't mean that you should miss out on some experiences. So you want to add a cooking class or a wine tasting or a boat tour. what we're trying to do now is have a very good and strong portfolio of small group or semi-private. So eight to 12 people ⁓ that experience. so that you don't miss out, you still have an amazing time because it's not gonna be a bus of people and you having to have whisperers in your ear. It's still small enough for you to really immerse yourself in whatever it is that you're doing. But budget-wise, it's not going to break a bank. So that is one thing that takes quite a bit of time in developing, because this size of group disappeared after COVID. We used to have it before 2020. And then with all of the pent up demand, turned down into just private or group because there were not enough guides. We couldn't get enough drivers. were, you know, a lot of elements that kind of pushed them ⁓ off scale, but we are now really trying to get them back ⁓ in its glory where there were. for the, Americas ⁓ and Australia, we are seeing as a trend and we are working on it. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Danielle Rudic: ⁓ tourism in ⁓ in general. So skiing. We know the states have some of the best ski resorts, some of the best, not all of them. But what we are seeing is that price-wise ⁓ in terms of availability, they ⁓ kind of creating a challenge for the North American market. And they're seeing now is that ⁓ so different ski resorts in Europe Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Danielle Rudic: are accepting both the Epic and the Icon ski passes from the US. And the US clients are very, very interested in getting their ski experiences in Europe instead of doing it in the US. This is something that we are seeing an increase that is year over year over 150%. So it started as a very, very shy attempt. about four years ago, but now that we are seeing it becoming a very, very strong segment. So anybody that is in this industry, and I'm not cutting the branch that I'm sitting on to say so, but it is an opportunity for anybody that really is doing a great job ⁓ in winter to look at these markets as the emerging markets and intensify their marketing efforts. in getting the word out there that they are in this particular ⁓ of tourism. Oleksij Rak: These awesome trends. I'm hearing about them for the first time. is really great perspective from the site. ⁓ Danielle Rudic: There's more definitely coming up. I mean, if we want to talk about second cities or dupes, people want less crowds, but they don't want to lose the sense of the landscape. ⁓ is happening with the Amalfi Coast, with Lake Como, with or there are a lot of destinations within the Mediterranean and Western Europe ⁓ where they bucket list items, but the availability is very low, the prices just driving them off the market for a specific segment of travelers. And again, where local knowledge comes in, we can suggest smaller cities that provide the same sort of feel, but a lot easier on the wallet, on the budget, and also easier when it comes to battling the crowds. So in Italy, we're seeing the Northern Riviera really taking off. We're seeing ⁓ Maggiore, Lago de Garda kind of coming up instead of Lake Como. ⁓ We're smaller islands in Greece really finally coming up to their own and they deserve it. ⁓ This Paros, Naxos, Tinos and Ciros even not replacing but getting their ⁓ deserved slice the cake in Croatia. We're seeing Shibaniq instead of Split and Zadar and Istria ⁓ the north really ⁓ over. So it's about finding alternatives. That is another trend that as a DMC we have to be aware of, we have to jump on it ⁓ really have the alternatives for absolutely ⁓ location. ⁓ second the advisors say, listen, they like the feel ⁓ Amalfi Coast, but they don't want. So where am I going to take them? We have to be the ones saying, okay, let's go down to Puglia. Let's go to Umbria instead and have a specific location in mind with photos ready to go to up that the the excitement ⁓ of to that place instead of their original destination where they wanted to go. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, and it basically solves two problems. First is like crowdedness, so they avoid crowds. Second is the budget. So like what you're saying, you're working on portfolio items for groups of eight to 10 people, which is already budget reduction per person and then going to dupes, as you call them, alternative destinations. It ⁓ reduces budget, so it opens up for you an opportunity of working with... lower budget customers but on a great scale probably. Danielle Rudic: whether it's you know scale is sometimes not the driving force Of course, everybody wants to do better and do more every year. mean, everybody's looking at the bottom line and the profits. But what it also means is opening up new opportunities, giving new locations the opportunity to grow and relieving a little bit of the pressure from those locations that really are getting to a point where it's not sustainable. to have as many travelers visit them a year as what we're seeing right now. of the countries have so many beautiful spots that ⁓ say ⁓ our job to become the ambassador ⁓ finding the new destinations that ⁓ going to give the very best of the country ⁓ relieving some of that pressure that ⁓ parts of the country are already feeling. We hear the local we hear the residents of larger cities that are ⁓ at critical point right now that they've reached the amount of tourists ⁓ that even whether the sustainability has already gone out the window or are they just at that level where living in a city like that will become unsustainable? So what we can do from our side is educate, provide alternatives, work with local communities to drive interest ⁓ else. So ⁓ gets a piece of the cake to say so when we're looking at the profits, ⁓ also we are spreading ⁓ incoming tourism more equally. And we don't have those spots within the country that are just about ready to burst. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, that's what I wanted to summarize it like you are spreading it out around the community, the whole... And second, you're trying to work with seasonality, you're spreading out across the seasons. So like X amount of tourists, they're not coming in summer to see, I don't know, Venice. And Badaia spread around like different cities and around different seasons. And yeah, that's most of time. Danielle Rudic: So like X amount of tourists, they're not coming in summer to see know, Vanessa, a Lebanese. But they are spread around like different cities and around different cities. And it opens opportunities for other countries. I mean, let's say five years ago, Iceland wasn't really on top of anybody. I mean, a beautiful country, Ben, love it. But if you think about the general market, was it a trending destination? Not really. Now, it is definitely a bucket list item because if you're looking for a place to go in July and August where you're not going to be hot, it is definitely going to be Iceland, Nordic countries. It's just opening so many different opportunities for countries that did not get their place on the world stage yet. exotic places getting their five minutes of fame and they're really taking these five minutes ⁓ using in a very smart way to extend it so that it's not just Andy Warhol's 15 minutes of fame. They're really taking advantage of it and making sure that they don't leave the stage. ⁓ So it's just about giving them different opportunities within existing destinations. Of course, this is our job and this is how ⁓ keep the interest in making sure that people come to our countries for the second, third or fourth time. But it's also a massive opportunity for smaller countries that still haven't the opportunity to, you know, get the bullhorn ⁓ and out to the world, hey, we're here, we're amazing, come and see us. Oleksij Rak: Yes. ⁓ Yeah, the same Iceland. company has built ⁓ inspirational ⁓ of places around the globe where you can go ⁓ and experience beautiful and interesting. And with regards to Iceland, we've seen that there is a lot of interesting to see in Iceland over the winter. You do not need to come necessarily ⁓ over summer. ⁓ And is a way to spread ⁓ out crowd. ⁓ Danielle Rudic: Yes. It's everything is a year round. Yes. And everything is year round. It's just about sitting down, determining what is the very best thing that you can offer in those months that you were never thinking about before. And it massively about ⁓ education without the word and without being able to back up. that the product that you have developed really is something that the clients and the general public is looking for, all of that work will be in So it is, it's a mixture of synergy, of everybody getting together and determining ⁓ where is tourism going in the next 10 years. ⁓ It is it in a sustainable way and also putting in the proper marketing and putting the word out there for everybody to hear what it is about this fantastic product that you've put together that is worth their time and worth their money. Oleksij Rak: Awesome. Daniel, it's been already an hour and it was really like, for me it's like eye-opening discussion in seven points because it's from the other side of travel industry, from the side of destinations. And I really opened for myself a couple of new things that you mentioned. So really thank you for this discussion. Danielle Rudic: Yes, I know! How many new topics did you get out of this? Oleksij Rak: couple. at some point I started putting down the comments because the notes, because ⁓ would forget. Because was like, ⁓ this is new, this is new. Okay. So thanks a lot for this discussion. Before we wrap up, maybe if you have anything to add to. Danielle Rudic: What's up? It was like. Thanks a lot. First of all, thank you very much for giving us this platform and for letting us be the first DMC to kind of open your horizons as well to see what it is that the other side of the industry is doing. And what I would just like to wrap everything up with is nobody in the industry should kind of be worried of where we are going next. Are going to be erased because of the technology that is coming up? just remember when it comes to technology and all of the new developments ⁓ the travel industry, the inspiration is the one thing that is easy to scale. Let of these new tools drive the new requests. Let's drive the inspiration, ⁓ give access to the new destinations. But the one thing that will never scale easily without the human element ⁓ is execution ⁓ of the final product. So just keep that in mind. Be proud of the product that you have proudly presented and give it to the end clients. And I don't think anybody in the industry has to worry. If there's passion behind what it is that you do, it will always be recognized no matter how far the AI goes. Oleksij Rak: Awesome, awesome. Thanks for wrapping up and thank you so much for coming. All the best luck for you. Danielle Rudic: Thank you very much and same to you. I'm looking forward to next topics that have been kind of driven from this conversation. Oleksij Rak: for sure. Okay, thanks and bye. Danielle Rudic: Thank you.