Latest / Authentic Living / Empowering Women: CarmeLL Clark on Leadership, Resilience, and Gender Equity

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Empowering Women: CarmeLL Clark on Leadership, Resilience, and Gender Equity · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, a place where we have conscious conversations
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  about things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
• 0:40
  Hi, everyone.
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  It's Roxanne Durhodge.
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  Thanks for tuning in again to Authentic Living with Roxanne.
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  Today, I have an amazing woman that is sharing her time with us today, her name is Carmel
• 0:52
  Kirk.
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  She's an executive coach.
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  Carmel, thanks for being here with us today.
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  Roxanne, it's a pleasure.
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  Thank you so much for having me.
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  Thank you.
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  So we talked a little bit about her, and I'm excited because I think I know we'll have a lot
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  to delve into.
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  She like I said, she's an executive coach and a business strategist, and she focuses on
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  elevating consciousness and linking it to purposeful action.
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  Her programs propel women from mid level roles to c suites, and we know that is quite the
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  trajectory oftentimes.
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  And she promotes actionable steps for well-being.
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  Her overall mission is expanding self awareness, resulting in an impactful change.
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  And her international retreats, which I wanna hear about, offer women a firsthand taste of
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  freedom, echoing the essence of living purposefully at NEH.
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  Wow.
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  That just I mean, we're obviously, that's the bucket that I'm in as I turned 60 in January.
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  So Wow.
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  That's great.
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  Love to hear all about it.
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  So, Carmel, tell us a
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  little bit about your path and what got you to the space where you ended up working
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  specifically with women in executive coaching.
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  Roxanne, I've always just connected with women, like my whole life.
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  I know I connect with people everywhere, so it's not exclusive in that sense.
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  And yet also what I was born, I like to say this, I was born a feminist.
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  I was born into a large family, the oldest in a very conservative religious family.
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  And there was a lot of misogyny.
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  And I was the oldest in this family.
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  I could not back down.
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  I literally, I knew that things were not equitable, and I was fighting that from the
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  time I was six years old, like literally.
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  So there's something inside of me that has always known that women's equity is part of the
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  work that I do and part of the life that I lead.
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  So it's listening to who we really are as we reflect on our lives and we look back and put
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  together the pieces of the puzzle.
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  That's one of my pieces, that advancing women, helping women to see themselves more clearly,
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  helping women to connect in with their true confidence inside.
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  Because a lot of women say, I need to build confidence.
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  So like, I think you just need to spend more time with who you really are.
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  And there's your confidence.
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  I see the look on your face and you're like, yes, that's exactly it.
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  I am a profound advocate for women of color, neuro typical LGBTQ plus all of these different
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  avenues for how women are able to come into their authentic place in their life and live
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  that authentic place that they are in their life.
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  So that's really a little bit more about how I came to that.
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  My early beginnings, I had a lot of in fact, it's interesting.
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  I'll just say I have this ebook free ebook that I told you that I have, I will have available
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  for people, women, how to successfully engage conflict, because I engaged a lot of conflict
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  growing up when I would encounter misogyny, when I would counter disrespect of me in any
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  form, but especially because I was female, and it was just very evident to me.
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  So, you know, kind of a quick little aside, my collaborator for my Italy retreats in the past,
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  Bridget Kukbert, she's a New York Times bestselling author.
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  She's been on Oprah twice.
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  She's had all of these different experiences in life and been very visible.
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  But we were in Rome meeting with, some people from The Vatican about a women's conference
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  that we were in the process of putting together.
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  And we were three women total at a table of about 12 men.
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  And one of the men who was in charge, I had put forward an idea, we were just going back and
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  forth on all these ideas, and I put forward this idea.
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  And, and nobody commented on it.
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  It was a great idea.
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  Nobody commented on it.
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  And then about five minutes later, he said the same thing at the table.
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  He was two people down from me, and everybody immediately picked it up.
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  And I just turned and looked at him and I said, I'm so happy you agree with my idea.
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  And I took my idea back in the conversation and carried it forward from there and everybody
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  engaged and we went forward.
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  And Bridget came up to me afterwards and she, I didn't even think about it.
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  That's just really kind of the way that it works for me.
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  Like, you know, not letting somebody walk across me like that.
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  And she said, I can't believe, like you did it so graciously, but you were so clear and so
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  firm.
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  There was no question that you required the appropriate respect for yourself in that
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  situation.
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  Absolutely.
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  I think of myself as being an executive for years and years and years.
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  And, you know, I think of how many, like, at pitch sessions and things like that, and you'd
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  be going in for a bid.
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  And I remember one particular thing, and I was the lead and the only female in the room for, I
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  believe it was EMS services for municipality.
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  And so everything was flowing and everything and my partner who went in, who's also part of
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  the pitch team but I was a lead, What happened was when he entered the room, and I'm gonna
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  sound very Canadian here, he starts to talk about hockey, which just the trajectory of the
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  entire meeting got diverted and you kind of sit there and to your point when you see it being
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  diverted and you're like right like what is the way to do it right because you have to find
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  that timing.
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  I'm talking fifteen years ago now which is not that long, but it was like I I was like, okay.
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  So how do we get this back on track?
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  Yeah.
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  And really what it was, it had to play out for them to have their quote unquote side talks
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  before it came back to where business was, but it's almost it it misstepped everything that
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  was planned.
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  So I'm and I'm sure you have hundreds of those stories that you can share with us.
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  What is it like out there now for women that are either going from, like you said, from
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  director level to the c suite?
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  Is it as difficult today for them to be able to find that voice, use it eloquently even when
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  things are getting derailed?
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  That's such an excellent question.
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  That's really a good question, Roxanne.
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  A provocative question, actually, because I have to say, and I think you probably have some
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  similar experiences, that in some ways it's just way easier, right?
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  It's much easier than it used to be.
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  In other ways, it's gotten more difficult.
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  So what are those?
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  In the first place, the fact that women having parity and women being equal, you know,
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  partners in situations, women having the right to have access to the C suite in the first
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  place, that, those conversations have been happening long enough now.
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  And there are more and more women.
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  There are more women who are leading fortune 500 companies and who are in leadership roles
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  in those companies across the board, as well as women who have created that are, they get seed
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  money, they're multimillion dollar, billion dollar startups, right?
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  Like they're doing really well.
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  There's a lot out there where women are part of the conversation much more than they ever used
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  to be.
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  And that to me is progress.
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  That we are all benefited by diversity, right?
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  A homogeneous system is not a healthy system.
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  We know that nature plays out the same way, so having more diversity is always going to
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  benefit every single person, everybody in that system in one way or another.
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  But I think the way that things are harder is a couple things.
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  One is that I think there's this idea of, oh, we've opened the door, we've done it, It's
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  done.
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  Right?
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  Like, now it's happened, which is not true at all.
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  Women I live in Utah right now, and women makes, I'm not kidding you, 71¢ on the dollar
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  to men for the same education, the same experience.
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  It's so hard to believe still in 2025, Carmel.
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  It is.
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  It's so hard to believe.
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  And this is not an anomaly.
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  Nationwide, women make 80, if I can remember correctly, 81¢ to the dollar to men.
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  So, is nationwide average.
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  And then when you get into the C suite, if you actually take individual areas within the C
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  suite, women are almost at parity.
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  You look at it and say, oh, women in human resources are at parity.
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  Women who are leading, you know, human resources or women who are leading marketing
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  are at parity.
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  But if you look at CEOs or you look at CFOs or you look at COOs, it actually drops
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  precipitously into the 70 percentile of equitable pay, and in some cases, 60
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  percentile.
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  It's Wow.
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  So more in alignment.
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  The parity is more in alignment of I'm gonna say this and hopefully nobody screams at me
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  when they see me or hear this, but into parts of the business that quote unquote had to
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  really struggle to be at the table.
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  Right?
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  Yes.
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  When I was in benefits consulting, HR, that was the main point of contact.
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  So I worked for as an executive in health and wellness.
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  And, generally, the SVP or the VP of HR struggled to get a place at the table, and,
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  generally, they were females.
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  Right?
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  And what you're seeing now is there's parity.
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  So that's interesting.
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  And marketing, again.
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  But things like finance Operations.
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  Operations, maybe r and d Yep.
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  A little bit different.
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  So that's and where do you think that is?
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  I think I know why it is, but I don't.
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  I'm not out there kind of hitting the pavement with females, like executives as much as you.
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  That's, again, another great question.
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  Why do I think that is?
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  I have some ideas.
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  I think that this is an area where we need more research, Personally, I don't think there's
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  enough research on this particular topic.
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  But what I see in those areas that I work with women in finance, work and international
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  finance, women who are top levels.
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  I worked with women who are at top levels in consulting.
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  And what I find is the quote unquote glass ceiling has become more invisible.
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  And this is the other thing that I wanted to point out that is the reason why I think we
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  haven't made as much progress.
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  So, there's the idea of, oh, we've opened the door, there are more women out there, all of
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  that, we've accomplished that.
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  But then there's this other thing that's called exceptionalism.
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  Have you, are you familiar with this term?
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  No, no, I'm, I'm excited to hear about it.
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  Yeah, so exceptionalism is this recognized and studied term where you will get one woman or
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  maybe two women, but not more than that into your C Suite.
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  And then all of a sudden, everybody like rallies this protectionism and the women
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  themselves as well into this, I've got to protect my position as a woman, and we're going
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  to call that progress.
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  We're going to say one woman in the C Suite has accomplished what we needed to accomplish.
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  And then on the other side of that, we're going to use that woman and she's going to use that
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  position of her being there as a way to keep other women from progressing.
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  We're going to, so really it's an internalized prejudice kind of thing.
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  Internalized prejudices in psychology is this idea and in sociology where like, you'd see the
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  same thing with migrant workers, where you would have somebody who was elevated to be the
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  supervisor and they were all there was a lot of marginalization and bad practices, but the
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  supervisor would be part of perpetuating those bad practices on the very people that they were
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  a part of, this group.
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  So that internalized prejudice is definitely there at the C suite level and at the top
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  management levels where women are concerned.
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  Exceptionalism is this idea that as a woman, I have to protect my position because there's
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  nobody else around me to to protect me.
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  Thinking that through,
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  I haven't I haven't thought about that term, is pretty bang on because I even think, of course,
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  I'm a brown woman as an executive and quite young.
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  I was the only brown person at that level.
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  Like I said, I haven't been there for, goodness, it's been fifteen years now.
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  So we're telling the time.
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  So and I remember when I would oftentimes, and this is interesting.
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  I'm bringing up probably something very controversial.
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  I remember one situation, and this is a pretty interesting situation.
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  So I was the executive of this particular account.
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  It was a pretty big account, and I was pregnant.
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  And this I had to travel a lot with this particular account.
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  And my contact was also from the island I was in from.
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  And she gave me the most difficult time.
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  Yes.
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  Which I and at first I'm like, maybe I'm making it up.
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  I'm a likable person.
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  I'm all about relationship.
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  That's what keeps things and I'm after I can whether we wanna use it as this world, this
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  term, but I felt that she my sense of her when I kind of deconstructed it and talked to my
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  coach about it and stuff like that was because she had had a tough time getting there.
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  And I thought that at that time.
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  And I thought so she was doing ridiculous meetings at 06:30 in the morning.
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  I am very visibly pregnant.
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  And I would be like, okay.
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  Can we, like, adjust time?
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  And she literally would not work with me.
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  Interesting.
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  And I remember thinking, wow.
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  And of course, it ended up tumbleweed and at some point, we ended up switch switching
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  executives.
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  But there's a part of you that doesn't wanna believe.
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  And I guess for me, I'm thinking just another trinity female executive.
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  My goodness.
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  We're in North America, and I felt more pushback than from any other other contact from
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  the other 40 companies that I worked with.
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  And and some of you reflect on it and hope that there's going to be a different I've got to
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  believe there's a different reason.
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  But clearly there wasn't.
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  There's
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  no.
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  There wasn't.
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  Yeah.
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  Your experience is not unique.
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  That's so unfortunate and sad, isn't it?
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  Yeah.
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  But what is it based on?
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  And this is the thing for me that was kind of going to go into my geeking out a little bit,
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  right?
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  You asked some this question because your experience is like, for me, it just grabs my
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  gut and my heart at the same time.
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  Like, why does this have to happen?
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  It doesn't need to happen.
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  How can we change this?
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  My background is in philosophy and social theory.
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  And there's a reason in our culture in our society, and even in societies across the
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  board, for why this kind of thing keeps coming up.
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  It's the reason that causes women to be pitted in competition with each other.
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  And I say it that way, causes women to be pitted in competition with each other instead
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  of in collaboration.
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  Women find subconsciously, mostly subconsciously, that they are trying to play
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  the game on men's terms.
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  And I'm gonna say, I don't wanna well, you know what?
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  Like, it is just what it is.
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  It's on the terms of white men, white upper middle class men playing the game on those
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  terms instead of stepping back and saying, no.
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  The game needs to change.
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  The game itself needs to shift, to accommodate and embrace all of us because we all have
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  something to contribute.
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  And that's one of the things I bring into my executive coaching and into my trainings when I
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  come into companies, is this very concept across the board.
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  And it's not prejudicial against our male counterparts at all.
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  It's actually bringing things into greater equity for everybody's benefit, but we have to
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  be able to name it and talk about it right in those.
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  I think that would
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  be humbling for women to actually understand that concept.
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  Because even if you're like, it's based out of, I'm gonna say scarcity and I fear, often say
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  that with a lie ship and all that's happened in companies, one would assume, and I felt like
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  the younger generations have had it a lot easier, but maybe not Like you said, the glass
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  ceiling is now a It's invisible.
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  It's more invisible now than it was More invisible now, And I would not have thought
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  that.
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  So you're really kind of having me think about that because my thing is, and everything that I
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  do with the work that I do, the fact that I went into psychology and stuff like that and
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  the books that I've written is all about the collaborative element and also my my
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  background.
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  Right?
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  Like, growing up in a little island and village, that kind of stuff.
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  And when you go out there, you're just trying to do your best job possible.
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  Exactly.
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  And not not expecting that sometimes my allies were actually more male than they were female
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  back in my time.
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  And that's actually really accurate.
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  There I when I was growing up, I had one female boss after another who was highly emotionally
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  abusive, and my male bosses loved me.
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  And we had great connection and collaboration, for which I'm very grateful.
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  The next step that we have to look at is, are those bosses also figuring out how to mentor us
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  as women into the positions that we want or to be able to take over from them, right?
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  Cause that's the next level that we have to look at.
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  Back to the issue with women, what I take on and what I lead in the work that I do is
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  helping women break down these artificially constructed barriers that have been
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  enculturated in them from early on, right?
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  The playground, girls sizing each other up and doing the mean girl thing, like all of that.
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  I cannot spend any time on that.
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  Like, we don't have time to spend on that.
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  We have things to do.
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  We have dreams to create and goals to accomplish, right, as women.
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  And we get there better and faster when we actually support each other.
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  This shouldn't be this competitive contest for who, who is able to, at the expense of anybody
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  else being able to get further.
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  That's a scarcity mindset for sure.
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  And also it's a mindset that does not build legacy.
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  If we want it to be better for all women, including ourselves, we have to open that door
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  wider and wider with every single thing we do, every opportunity we are able to create for
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  ourselves.
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  When I hear in Utah, where I am right now, there's a lot of work to actually help women
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  see and recognize that concept.
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  How do we open the door wider for others, especially for women and women of color?
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  Like, that's a big one here, because I think people don't see it.
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  When I start to go into those statistics about what women make, if I now lay out all the
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  statistics for, native tribal women, if I lay out the statistics for black women, for Asian
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  women, I can start to break it all down.
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  Yeah, the hard facts are the hard facts, right?
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  It's one thing to say, Oh yeah, we've got parity.
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  But again, it depends on the industry you're in, obviously.
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  So I wanna talk a little bit more about culture.
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  Right.
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  So talk we wanna get women recognizing, like you said, their behaviors and how they may be
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  impeding their capacity to to grow, but also to be assisting others around them.
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  What is happening at the higher levels of corporate culture now to assist that?
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  Like, we're saying we're not at parity.
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  They're being done like a placard that just kinda gets put up and then and there's no
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  shift?
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  That's a good leading question for us.
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  I'm gonna say at the upper levels, one of the biggest challenges women and women of color
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  face is isolation, right?
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  There are so few of us, or I should say you, women and women of color at the top levels,
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  right?
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  That we don't realize that we have to put the armor on all the time.
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  Think about that, right?
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  You've been in those situations, Roxanne.
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  And you just go in.
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  Right?
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  Like, when you're dealing Yeah.
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  With lawyers, you go in and you just accept I'm gonna get kind of browbeaten today if I've been
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  in with physician.
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  You're just kinda going in and you're doing it, but you're not I'm not thinking or I wasn't
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  thinking about the color of my skin.
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  That's the last thing.
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  I'm just thinking it lastly.
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  I'm just gonna go in there, do my thing, show the value of what we're offering the company,
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  and then just going from there.
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  So sometimes, I'm not sure that I saw the barriers because I just didn't see barriers.
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  And if things didn't work out, I more than likely would have thought it was a different
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  reason.
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  Maybe I the pitch didn't go good enough for a different reason.
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  So I think it's interesting that we're talking about this and, you know, how they
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  I've I've had had that that same conversation with so many women, and there's something in
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  that I want to say.
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  First of all, it is threatening when we finally get to that moment of realizing we're dealing
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  with that kind of prejudice, right?
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  It's threatening.
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  We have to then contend with that reality, and there's something to be said for not giving it
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  time.
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  I totally At the same time, when I have worked with women and I bring this up, all of a
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  sudden, like a light goes on, and they realize that a part of their power that had been pulled
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  away from them, that they hadn't realized suddenly came back into them, right?
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  That, oh, this is not okay.
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  And that recognition can be really helpful and really powerful for all of us as women.
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  When I lead these groups, I make sure that all of the white women in the group understand that
• 22:45
  the women of color in the group do not have the same opportunities that they do and they need
• 22:51
  to see it, recognize it and do something about it every Don't
• 22:54
  you think that's hard sometimes though because I've been around my white colleagues and they
• 22:59
  because they they see okay.
• 23:01
  People that are see all I they see is capacity.
• 23:05
  Your ability, Roxanne or Carmel, like, they don't see and sometimes it's almost like it's
• 23:12
  hard for people to accept that if you or I entered a pitch room or we were going for the
• 23:17
  same job that, in fact, there would be a difference in how not everybody, and I think we
• 23:23
  have come such a long way that, in fact, there would be a different ranking because we don't
• 23:28
  wanna we don't wanna I don't wanna believe that, first of all.
• 23:31
  I don't wanna believe it.
• 23:32
  Most people are like, are you crazy?
• 23:34
  This is not happening in 2025.
• 23:36
  And I'm like, like,
• 23:38
  it's happening.
• 23:38
  Certainly is happening.
• 23:39
  Yeah.
• 23:39
  Yeah.
• 23:40
  And it only helps us to admit it and be honest about it so that we can do something about it
• 23:44
  to make things better.
• 23:45
  Right?
• 23:46
  That's how I see it.
• 23:46
  And not every situation has that.
• 23:49
  I'm not gonna But say it's we have to recognize, and from my perspective, it's not a
• 23:57
  woman of color's job to make everybody else catch up to this.
• 24:02
  It's my job as a white woman to step up and recognize when things are not being played out
• 24:08
  in a fair way, work to level that playing field, but I can't do that if I can't see
• 24:14
  what's been the water I've been swimming in all along.
• 24:16
  So I have to do better at seeing the water I'm swimming in.
• 24:20
  All of that to be said, or all of that's saying that the bigger picture that we're talking
• 24:26
  about is how do women at this higher level not stay isolated, right?
• 24:32
  It's really important for women at the C suite and member management levels to learn how to
• 24:36
  build deep connections on their own terms, to hold their own ground, right?
• 24:42
  And this is
• 24:43
  going to tie in what
• 24:44
  we were just talking about, hold their own ground, feel confident in who they are to such
• 24:50
  a degree that they open the doors for everybody else to catch up to more equity across the
• 24:57
  board.
• 24:58
  Right?
• 24:59
  We can all say meritocratic advancement, except that the field wasn't level to begin with.
• 25:06
  So, have to take that into account.
• 25:08
  We have to recognize that all of these subtle ways of seeing and decision making have been
• 25:14
  wrapped around one specific way.
• 25:17
  And we have to step back and expand what we see.
• 25:20
  We have to expand all the different ways that success can look, the different people that it
• 25:26
  comes through.
• 25:27
  So, I want to say that, and then to say Deloitte came out with some really amazing
• 25:33
  research and Forbes actually published about it extensively at different times called the
• 25:39
  multiplier effect.
• 25:41
  And the multiplier effect for everybody who doesn't know is this.
• 25:45
  For every one woman you have at that top level, partner, C suite, whatever it is, you will have
• 25:52
  an exponential number of women cascading down through the organization.
• 25:58
  So, the more we can build women into, and honestly, I don't mean in any kind of back
• 26:07
  backdoor kind of way, but build women into these positions, it opens the door for other
• 26:13
  women.
• 26:13
  There's a lot of efforts being made to, oh, we need to just hire more women, and they'll come
• 26:18
  up through the ranks and all of that.
• 26:20
  But that's not actually, it doesn't work.
• 26:23
  The research has shown that that doesn't work.
• 26:24
  What works is, let's continue to work on advancing our mid and upper level women.
• 26:31
  And as we advance them, it creates the pathways automatically for other women to advance.
• 26:37
  So once you get two women into the C suite or three women into the C suite, all of a sudden
• 26:43
  you see the multiplier effect really kick in.
• 26:46
  The reverse multiplier is also a factor.
• 26:49
  If a company does not create a space for women that is accepting, right, like, and embracing
• 26:58
  at that top level, and that woman leaves, you will see women leaving through the
• 27:04
  organization, top women leaving throughout the organization all the way down within a matter
• 27:08
  of a year to two years.
• 27:10
  So, you can lose top talent if you don't work to actually create a culture of parity and
• 27:18
  recognition and equal
• 27:19
  So there's substantiated facts to support, not just it's a nice to have.
• 27:25
  Of course, we know about creativity and diversity of thought and all those things, but
• 27:29
  so many amazing things.
• 27:32
  Now you talk a lot about working with women and self awareness.
• 27:36
  So tell us a little bit about some of the things that you do.
• 27:38
  I know you do retreats.
• 27:40
  What else do you do, Carmel?
• 27:42
  So I started the international retreats from my own journey at a time in my life where I had to
• 27:49
  start from scratch all over again.
• 27:51
  And I know there are a lot of women out there who've had their own experiences or are having
• 27:55
  their own experiences like that.
• 27:57
  What do you do when you find that every rug has been pulled out from underneath your feet and
• 28:02
  you have to reinvent completely?
• 28:05
  So I started my retreats from this place of realizing as I started to travel at that point
• 28:12
  all over the world and took my business from two brick and mortar offices to completely
• 28:17
  online in 2014 so that I could travel and live from anywhere, I realized that there was such a
• 28:24
  deeper level of confidence and self awareness and self respect that was building in me,
• 28:30
  knowing that I could go anywhere in the world, Roxanne, that I could figure it out.
• 28:34
  I could make it work fantastically, and I could be successful.
• 28:38
  So I created these more adventures than retreats.
• 28:42
  Call them retreats because people recognize what that is.
• 28:45
  But these adventures to bring women into a space where they realize that they are inside
• 28:54
  that capable, that the world is big enough for them and they are big enough for the world.
• 28:59
  Wow.
• 28:59
  That sounds amazing.
• 29:01
  Yeah.
• 29:01
  Sounds amazing.
• 29:02
  It's getting to play, but you're getting to grow at the same time
• 29:05
  Yeah.
• 29:05
  In different parts of the world.
• 29:07
  That's when we're unfamiliar, the level of creativity and space that we create to grow, it
• 29:15
  sounds like that's a nice place that you created for them.
• 29:18
  Yes.
• 29:20
  So then to take that a little bit further, when I take women on the retreats and adventures,
• 29:27
  what ends up happening for them in their lives when they come back is this process of
• 29:32
  reinvention.
• 29:33
  You talk about this podcast is authentic living, right?
• 29:36
  That is the core of this focus, this, that I do with women realize that the vocation, the
• 29:45
  career that they've been in doesn't serve them anymore, or maybe the job itself is not the fit
• 29:50
  for them, or they've outgrown it, or it's toxic and they need to change it.
• 29:54
  The relationship that they've been avoiding is they dive in or the relationship that needs to
• 30:00
  be challenged or ended or whatever, like big changes in life, right?
• 30:06
  Healing of relationships, setting big healthy boundaries, those are the results of these
• 30:13
  kinds of world adventures.
• 30:15
  That's what I'm-
• 30:16
  It sounds amazing.
• 30:17
  Sounds like a very it's from the pupa to the butterfly kind of Yes.
• 30:22
  Space where you spend some amazing time.
• 30:25
  So, Carmel, this has been an amazing conversation.
• 30:29
  So for people that are wanting to know more and to learn more, you shared such wisdom with us
• 30:34
  today.
• 30:35
  Any last words before you tell people where to connect and follow you on social?
• 30:41
  Yeah.
• 30:41
  I would say the first thing I would say is that when I work with my women executives or women
• 30:49
  in their careers, we're getting them really clear about where they're most aligned, where
• 30:53
  they fit, and how they create their life and work fully, this work life balancing, on their
• 31:00
  terms the way they want.
• 31:01
  So that's a big part of it, and then how they're able to increase and advance their own
• 31:08
  income or their revenue for their businesses, if that's the case.
• 31:12
  Those are big goals for me because they can create so much change out of those kinds of
• 31:17
  goals and those accomplishments.
• 31:19
  So, if women want to get in touch with me, they can reach out directly to me through direct
• 31:25
  message on LinkedIn or on my website, carmelclark.com, and I would love to just have
• 31:30
  a conversation.
• 31:31
  Even if I can just offer something that's going to help somebody right then and there in that
• 31:35
  moment to advance, and we don't end up working together.
• 31:38
  I've been doing that for years.
• 31:39
  So please don't hesitate to reach out.
• 31:41
  I would love to do that.
• 31:42
  And also I'll just mention again, Women How to Successfully Engage Conflict, the e book.
• 31:47
  That will be available as well, because women, it's about women's freedom.
• 31:51
  Like, we need to engage important and necessary conflicts and not avoid them.
• 31:56
  We need to have a life that's not an avoidant life where conflict is concerned.
• 32:01
  And when we can do that, I think we can make real and big changes in the world.
• 32:08
  What a pleasure.
• 32:09
  What am I walking away with?
• 32:10
  I guess that concept of exceptionalism is really has resonated with me.
• 32:16
  When you do notice it, if you are aware of it, what role should I be playing to ensure that I
• 32:24
  am not perpetuating something that I'm not aware that I'm doing.
• 32:28
  And to think, how could I extend that hand having been there myself?
• 32:33
  You're aware that it does exist.
• 32:35
  And for others out there, if you have the capacity in whatever way to assist others to
• 32:41
  think what is it something small that I can do to help someone along because we've all been
• 32:46
  there.
• 32:47
  So everyone, thanks so much for hanging out with us again.
• 32:50
  Write a review for us on iTunes or Spotify.
• 32:53
  It allows me the capacity to have amazing guests like Carmel on.
• 32:57
  And what's new with me is the our our course on resilience for burnt out leaders, they're
• 33:02
  running, and they're starting, again in January.
• 33:05
  So I would if you want more information about it, just reach out to me at roxanneroxanderhoch
• 33:11
  dot com.
• 33:11
  Again, Carmel, thank you for your time.
• 33:13
  And everyone, take care, and we'll chat with you next week.
• 33:16
  Bye bye.
• 33:17
  Bye bye.
• 33:20
  Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 33:25
  healthy change.
• 33:27
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach.
• 33:31
  To work with Roxanne, visit roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
• 33:37
  We'll see you next time on Authentic Living with Roxanne.