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What I've Learnt - Jason Kimberly · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

0:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm about to interview somebody who's very cool.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: In fact, Jason Kimberley is an adventurer, photographer, author, and the founder of Cool, an education organization dedicated to inspiring students to learn for life.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: Jason is an altruistic realist.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: His uncompromising focus is on equitable access to quality education for all students.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: Prior to his success in education, Jason was restauranteur of Uber Successful Voludo, the limelight of Melbourne's culinary and nightlife scene in the 90s.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: He then joined the family rag trade juggernaut, Just Jeans, for a number of years before doing a 180 and finding his passion in education.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, Jason inspires and is and is inspired by the work he does and has leveraged every skill he has, all his energy and all his resources to make cool.org the success it is today.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'd like to welcome you, Jason, to the What I've Learned podcast.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm so thrilled to have you join us.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but thanks for having me.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: It's a great pleasure to be with you today.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, I tell you what, we've got lots to discuss and unpack here because there's a lot you've done and do.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: And I love that about you.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: You seem to throw yourself full steam into everything that you do.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to talk to me a little bit about where it all started?
1:23
SPEAKER_00: Because you actually, I know, worked initially with your family as one of the Just Jeans crew.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Can you give us a little bit of background on who you are and where you came from?
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Because that's interesting too.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, every night around the dinner table, the conversation um uh was probably a bit different to most families.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: We were talking uh stock turn and gross margins and uh what was coming in next month and what the weather was like in Queensland and how that was impacting the sales of shorts and t-shirts.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: So we became an expert in weather in all states and how that impacted the purchases of denim and t-shirts nationally.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was a really uh I think a unique experience chatting to other kids um around the place.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: And uh that really, I think was a really informative part of my life, speaking with uh mum and dad and um my sister as well around the uh the table uh about business and I suppose the importance of leadership and bringing the team with you and uh and all those things.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: So I think I started a little um uh family MBA when I was about uh five or six around the kitchen table, learning about fashion and the business and how it worked and particularly the seasonality of it.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: And uh dad was often overseas traveling.
2:33
SPEAKER_01: In fact, he celebrated my birth with an eight-week uh overseas buying trip, which mum wasn't too thrilled about, probably tricky to get away with these days, but that's how it was back in 1967 in the summer of love.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: And uh um, yeah, it was uh certainly uh an interesting experience around the dinner table having those chats as a young fella.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's a really great picture that you paint because your your family were very pivotal in the sort of the fashion drive um in Australia and certainly that culture of denim, which was really iconic, actually.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: So the fact that you were part of that and got to see close up just how hard you have to work to build a brand and a business like that, just give me a few sort of you then you went into the family business when you were how old were you?
3:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I probably started off when I was maybe um six or seven.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: I was always keen to earn a bit of coin.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, had a bit of entrepreneurial spirit uh when I was young.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: So every opportunity I I had, I'd go in with uh with dad in the in the holidays and I'd go into the office and uh work in the warehouse and largely annoyed people, I think, really, but they had to put up with me because I was the boss's son.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: But uh I was fascinated with the um uh the all the all the jeans and the t-shirts and all the pics to all the stores that would be getting sent around the country.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: And uh I was also really interested in the uh the computer, which was this huge machine which took up about a quarter of a whole floor of the uh warehouse.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: The early computer out of a roll dahl um you know novel, and it spat out these paper um um sort of cards with all these holes punched in, and they denoted what had sold in what store, so we could uh you know replenish the stock and get the you know the right stock in the right place at the right time, which is what retail's all about.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: So um that was a really important thing for that.
4:22
SPEAKER_01: I did, and you know, I sort of worked with the uh tea lady and did the lunches and okay, whether I got a bit older, they trusted me to pick some stock orders um uh once they realized I might muck that up.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: So I think pretty much most school holidays, I'd spend some time in the in the office with dad and particularly in the warehouse.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: And when I got old enough to work on the uh in the stores, although I was still um underage, I think I might have been about 13, and I think you had to be maybe 16 at those days to um work in a retail outlet or certainly 15.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: And I would carefully go through all the pay rates and I'd put myself on, you know, casuals, so they got a slightly higher rate than the part-timers versus the full-timers.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I definitely had an entrepreneurial spirit and how I could um uh maximize my uh output and uh well minimise my output, I suppose.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: But I actually love that what you're describing because what you're saying is you really learn on the job, and there's a strong sense of of how we can learn in different ways.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: And you were really thrust into it because of that opportunity through your family and the notion that, for example, the retail space.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, how many kids that we know go and do their first job?
5:26
SPEAKER_00: It's a retail job, right?
5:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you basically learn all the the cut and thrust of the retail sector.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: You just have to go look at Chatston to see all the 19, 20-year-olds, you know, busting their guts there.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: So for you, what did you learn primarily that you have sort of, I suppose, imbued into the next phase of your life?
5:45
SPEAKER_00: But but just on the floor and in that cut and thrust, what what did you learn?
5:49
SPEAKER_01: I suppose that the thing I learned most was just that the relationships and uh and uh partnerships and working with people, whether it was a a very short relationship you might have with a customer in a store, you know, they might come in not knowing what they want to wear and uh uh they mightn't have the confidence to be able to select what uh what they think would suit them and you know, showing them uh a certain cut or a style that uh will you know absolutely um uh do the the best it can to make that person um feel good about themselves, I think was uh a really fun thing to do.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: And I think um understanding that everyone's needs are quite different and being able to cater uh to that sort of in that sort of short-term basis, but particularly working in the stores and sort of later on when I was sort of in the exec team and whether I was working in product or in uh as a um uh a sales uh rep or a regional manager, I think we're called in those days, is understanding that everyone's different and everyone's experiencing um things differently to you are how you are.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: And it's really important to be uh empathetic and understanding of the view of others and be able to put yourself in their scenario and take a view of things from our perspective, not just march in and say, you know, this is no good, fix it up.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, more of a question of well, why is this like this?
7:02
SPEAKER_01: And how do you think we can fix it?
7:03
SPEAKER_01: And what's led to this?
7:05
SPEAKER_01: What are the barriers that we need to uh overcome to sort this out?
7:08
SPEAKER_01: So um, and I didn't always get that right, particularly when I was younger, but I certainly learnt it and I think um got a lot better at it as um as I've got older is uh understanding that.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: And I think because you never know someone's situation, and if someone's you know tired or grumpy, I always think, well, who knows, they might have just got some really bad news that you know um something terrible might have happened in their life.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: So uh always um be forgiving, I think, and understanding and and look to find the best in people.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: And I think if you look around the world today, we quickly jump to find the worst in people, and that might just be five percent of them have had a bad day or made an offhand comment.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and that actual person might be a really terrific person who's been misrepresented or misunderstood.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: So the ability to uh to empathize and understand how other people uh are feeling and how their day might be going, I think uh in today's world, you know, we quickly jump on those little errors and sort of maybe a little bit of minutiae here and there.
8:00
SPEAKER_01: But I think it's important to find find the good and work with the good rather than fight over the five or 10% of things we disagree on.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: And everyone seems to be very good at that, but we seem to lose sight of focusing on the 90% of things we do agree on and just choose to fight over the five or 10%, which I find a bit frustrating to be truthful.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I totally, I totally agree with you.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: And I think it sounds to me also that you took a lot of lessons out of that experience in the family business.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, and just a quick touch on the retail sector and how much it's expanded, but also how much it's is it mind-blowing for you to see where the retail sector has landed and how you know everything from the Zahra's to the issue of fast fashion.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: Have you got just a few reflections on where you see that?
8:46
SPEAKER_00: Because you've obviously moved into a completely different area, which we'll obviously focus on.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm just interested in your perspective on that because uh it really is quite an interesting space.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I think I haven't worked in uh in retail for for over 20 years, but when I left in 2002, there was none of those international retailers were in Australia and the Australian market, um, very much um the retailers in Australia would would travel overseas, would pick the eyes out of all the great product they would find in, you know, LA or London or Paris, go home via Hong Kong, give it to the factories.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: We want the pocket from this, the sleeve from that, the color from that, make it work.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: So essentially rip-off merchants, Australian retail, and uh, you know, hand on heart, anyone who retired in Australia before the year 2000 was a rip-off merchant to some degree.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: They didn't design their own stuff and they took the best of what was around the world.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: And you know, the data just jeans, hand on heart, he says the same thing.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: So it's not like a trade secret or anything.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so now that all the good operators who used to get knocked off and copied and versions of it come back to Australia, they're all here now.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: So the Australian uh um uh retailers have found it a lot harder because their business model, there's been a complete paradigm shift in essentially knock-off merchants, get it done uh cheaply in Asia, looks like sounds like job and sell it in Australia.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: And you know, we'd be six months behind because of the season of the northern hemisphere.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: Once they're done their summer, we'd be coming into the summer.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: So we'd be uh um sort of on on season uh with them, but just that six months behind.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: So now that they're all here, no one can afford to do that anymore.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: And all the Australian retailers have to come up with their own designs, which um a lot of them have found very challenging.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: A lot of them have gone out of business.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh, most of them, their profit margins are down, shopping center rents are up, and um the margins are a lot thinner.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: And uh it's a much tougher place, I believe, now than it was um uh 20 or 30 years ago when the the denim boom was still riding high.
10:44
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, it was sort of uh even David Jones and Meyer were trading well 20 years ago.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, and we've all seen the struggles that uh that they've had.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think it's become a lot uh more challenging for Australian retailers in the last 20 years, and uh as luck would have it, uh the family sold out 20 years ago, just before it did get really tricky.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: So uh I don't know.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Pretty smart, yeah.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: No, well, smart.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: And and obviously he saw the writing on the wall.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: Although one can obviously see, as I mentioned, you go out to Chatston, it's expanding every five minutes, and I'm I'm sort of it is it is quite, and that's another story, but it is um interesting.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: And just on that note, obviously the the monolith of fast fashion and all of that issue, there's a change also in the marketplace.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: People are starting to think twice.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: Do you think is that part of the contribution to the change in the paradigm shift, or do you think it's just a pure financial retail remodeling?
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think a little bit of both.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: I think also there's also the cost of I think a fast fashion is really um overlooked.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: I think you know, people will younger folk will, you know, buy something, maybe even, you know, wear it two or three times, and if it's if it's costing 12 bucks, well, you know, uh they they mightn't see the the merit in wearing it much beyond that season.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: So and that all ends up, some of it might end up at the um at the uh the op shop, but a lot of it ends up in landfill and all that energy, water, and you know, um uh fossil fuels, the transportation that have gone into it, uh essentially, you know, um wasted and and for what, you know, for a few wares um to uh look hot at your latest party.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: So I think getting people to stop and think about that is a real challenge.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: And some of us do and some of us don't, and uh um it's not in everyone's interest for people to stop and think about things.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: It's better for most people who are, you know, making money out of fashion in particular or anything in general to have your audience not think too hard about what you're doing and just to keep purchasing and to uh you know keep uh turning the dollars over.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I tend to agree with you, and it's really that's a massive issue and one that we could talk about endlessly.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: In the meantime, you've you've really morphed and adapted and gone as almost a full circle in terms of what you're doing now at cool.org, which is a phenomenal organization, which um you and I have spoken about reasonably extensively.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: Tell our listeners a little bit about cool.org, how you got there, because you've obviously done lots of things and you're multifaceted, but this is your real passion.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: And I'm really interested to hear um how you arrived at this destination.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: Well, one I prepared earlier, I was um uh went on a trip to Antarctica with a couple of mates of mine in 2005, a school mate of mine, uh Jay Speel, and uh the mountaineer um Pete Hillary, who's scooched up Everest a couple of times and been to the South Pole, and uh he agreed to take me and uh my mate on an expedition to Antarctica, and the result of that was um this book here, Antarctica, A Different Adventure.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: And I was um struggling.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: What a great cover.
13:45
SPEAKER_01: That's that's not me, but um I'm a little shorter through the quads than that.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: But the traveling companion, Mr.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Veal, and I thought I was gonna have a big debate as to how to get him onto the cover, and he just said, where do you want me to stand?
13:57
SPEAKER_01: And please do not highlight any of the inevitable shrinkage that will no doubt occur.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh that was of the book.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: And when I was researching that book, I was reading about um fishermen who are coming down to the southern ocean and netting krill by the boatload.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: And krill is the basis of all um life in the uh Southern Ocean.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, everything depends on that.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: And um uh this krill was being used as an additive to put into pellets that were being used to feed cattle that were grazing on cleared Amazonian rainforests to grow burgers for uh North America, who I thought possibly didn't need another burger at that stage.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: But out of sight, out of mind, people are making money and it goes on.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: And I was sort of quite horrified.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: I thought I knew about this stuff, but it turns out I didn't have much of a clue at all on this.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: Hundreds, if not thousands, of these things going on around the world.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: So I uh asked my teacher mates and said, what's going on in the classroom?
14:49
SPEAKER_01: How are you dealing with you know these um uh environmental challenges, but also the social and economic challenges of our day, you know, what are we doing?
14:57
SPEAKER_01: And it was very much, oh, don't do this, don't do that.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: By the way, 10 easy tips to save the planet.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: And I couldn't have been anything more disheartening as a kid at school being told that.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: So I thought there was an opportunity to speak in plain English with a sense of humor and not talk down to teachers, but talk up to teachers to uh um uh give them a really positive message about what can be done as opposed to what can't be done and how kids can have success at school, whether it's around their water waste, energy, biodiversity in their uh schools, and have some successes that they can build on through their education and be able to take that uh into their lives.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: And the first bit of research we did on the program in schools, we um spoke to about 20 different schools and they said there was demonstrable behavior change with their students around water, waste, energy, and biodiversity, our four key subjects we were working on when we first started.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: And uh they said they'd take that home to their parents and they were um uh having noticeable behavior change both at home and at school.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: So we thought we're onto something here.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: Then we expanded the program out to include the social and economic um issues that kids are really concerned about and the things that keep coming up in the uh surveys done by um Mission Australia and the Smith family and various other organizations, kids are concerned about um uh climate, their future, equality, um, and inclusion, and also their future and mental health.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: I think I might have mentioned that twice.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, so those those four things in rotating order are the top four by a good distance.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: So, what we want to do is help educate kids to understand more about those areas and into entwine those key issues into a maths lesson, a science lesson, an English lesson.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: So all the learning is real world.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: We bring the real world into the classroom and kids love it rather than rocking up to school.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: Term two, week three, page 78 of the textbook, the same old thing we've done before.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: So we really add the spicy source to the education, get the teachers engaged to teach things they otherwise wouldn't have thought they would taught, and also get the kids engaged in their learning, keep them at school um longer, help get them uh on a career path, help them understand who they are.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: I think it's just so to me, it's revolutionary.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I work with the World Literacy Foundation, as you know, which I've touched on.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: And really, I just find it astounding that we have an education system that was developed, you know, back in the industrial age.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: And it's so anachronistic.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: It seems to be while it has its role, there, you know, I would say if you, you know, 70% of kids would be disengaged, honestly, a lot of the time.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: Even if they're smart, this is not about smart or not smart.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I find extraordinary, is what you're doing, which is something that I would have thought was a no-brainer, excuse the pun, but to me, it makes so much sense to engage kids in something they care about, in issues that they care about, things that are going to affect them, as you say, bringing the real world into the classroom.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: Why has it taken so long?
17:59
SPEAKER_00: And how difficult has it been for you to develop some interesting?
18:02
SPEAKER_00: I know you're in how many schools are you in now, your program?
18:05
SPEAKER_01: We've got there's 175,000 teachers in Australia using our program across 92% of uh of Aussie's schools.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: And we we started in 2008 with uh this idea and a book I showed you before, I sent that, a copy of that to every school um librarian in uh the state of Victoria, because we were just operating.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: We were cool Melbourne back then, with another book I'd had published about some adventures around Australia, and uh with a letter to the librarian saying, Hey, I think we can help your teachers include um all these uh uh interesting and at the time, you know, quite controversial um subjects.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: At the time the Victorian government, you weren't allowed to use the word climate change.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, there was all this sort of, you know, from 1984 double speak, and it was quite an incredible time.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: And some of the uh the political environment sort of got quite hot um around there.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, we've been mentioned in parliament, you know, plenty of people have cracked us, um, which um from both both ends of the spectrum, which tells me we're doing a great job, you know, not green enough, not right enough, not this enough.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: So uh I'm I'm happily we happily get criticized by everyone.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: So I think we're doing a pretty good job.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I take your point.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: What you're saying is you're trying to ruffle the feathers and make sure that people think and they just don't, you know, exist.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: And that includes in the classroom and making sure that you get because you know, I know with my own kids and you know with your kids, obviously they're much more animated and engaged when you actually push buttons and get them to think about decisions and change and all of the things that your your program activates.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: So, do you was it how long has it been running now?
19:41
SPEAKER_01: 15 years.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: We we started in 2008, so we have 15 years we've been uh we've been running.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: And the thing we've done quite differently from uh lots of other organizations, we've approached teachers directly.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: No one's ever mandated you you must use cool.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's been a word of mouth program to the point where I think 175,000 educators, 25,000 parents, and about 15,000 overseas educators, um, all in our database, um, all of them coming into the site and um, you know, downloading lessons and uh taking them off.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: And interestingly, when we ask what they do, they add it to their portfolio and teach it um year on year on an ongoing basis.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: So um that's just uh you know so rewarding.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: And when we do our research and ask teachers, how does this impact your kids?
20:22
SPEAKER_01: And unsurprising, they say my kids are now much more likely to work in a team.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, sort of like eight, eight out of eight out of ten more likely to work in a team.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, their understanding of the issue has changed.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, their ability to um communicate this uh lesson has also uh jumped up.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: But the interesting thing was we asked teachers, um, nine out of ten said, I've changed my view on this issue.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: So be able to change a teacher's view on that issue to me is a really powerful thing.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: Because first thing, where were they getting their information?
20:52
SPEAKER_01: Was it just the loudest noises in the media?
20:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, because um up until a few years ago, 40% of secondary teachers were teaching outside their area of expertise.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: And while that number has come down to about 26%, there's still a fair chunk of secondary teachers who are not trained to teach in their areas.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: So what we do is we assume zero knowledge on a teacher's behalf.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: So, Deb, you or I could pick up a cool uh lesson, read it through the night before, and go bang and deliver it to the class the next day.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: So it's all about step one, step two, step three.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: It's a uh an instruction list.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: And according to a teacher's ability, they're free.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: Feel free to edit, drop stuff in, localize it for their own scenario, add bits in that they know will work well for their kids because teachers have a really great understanding of what their class needs.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: And we never take the teacher away from the center of what we do.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: And um, there's a lot of platforms that just teach the kids and chop the teacher out of the equation.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: We never want to do that.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: We want to keep the teacher central and upskill the teacher to be the best educated they can possibly be.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: It's very interesting to me because, first of all, obviously, and I think I've raised this with you before.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: For?
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Who's curating the content?
22:02
SPEAKER_00: Who's insuring?
22:03
SPEAKER_00: So obviously, if I've got a kid at school and I love this idea and it opens doors, right?
22:08
SPEAKER_00: But I'm like, okay, who's curating that lens?
22:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: So that's important because we need to know where it's coming from.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of our work, probably 90% of the work we do, or at least 80%, will be done with industry experts.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: So we will include, we will have um uh the expert from their film from their field, and uh they will give us and share with us all their information, their data, their research, their infographics, their videos, and we will take that as the expert educators and distill that into a year-level specific, subject-specific classroom lesson.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: And we employ uh psychologists, um particularly around sensitive areas, so that we're not um uh potentially triggering any kids or uh having any kids feel left out.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: And we are really explicit with the teachers on uh how they need to prepare for the lesson.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, because you know, we do look at some uh uh some things.
23:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, we did a um uh a professional learning course last year on on how to teach um consent, and uh over 2,000 teachers downloaded it and uh and did that PL course because it's something they're interested in because they know their kids are passionate about it and want to learn about it.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: It's an important issue.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: It is, and it's really important to not just you know um uh go out and have uh an idea.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: But you know what, the ultimate judge is um Deb, the the the final arbitrator on is it good, is it bad, is it appropriate, is that teacher.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: If the if it's no good, if it's um, you know, if if it's not well researched, if it hasn't got the psychologist involved, particularly if it's um some First Nations material, we always engage some some uh Indigenous educators in that as well.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: So that we know it's not just us, we feed in from the industry experts, from the mental health experts, from the subject matter experts, and that's how we come up with the really top-class educational material.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, the teacher um will vote with their click and decide whether it's going to be any good for them.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: So the teacher they're the curator.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're they're the ones that distill and ensure.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, clearly there's a lot of power and a lot of potency in what you offer because you're dealing with, as you said, social issues, often sometimes controversial issues, which you know, anything in the real world is can be controversial to either side, as we know.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: So the question is also, I suppose, how do you navigate government and politics and all of that, which obviously in a way you're sort of come in the back, you know, you can come round this way, and so you're not don't have to go through the government, I suppose, uh, gateway.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: But in doing that, do you find they make life difficult?
24:40
SPEAKER_00: And also, are you conscious and have you had challenges um in terms of controversy or or issues that may prove to be not so straightforward?
24:51
SPEAKER_00: Maths is one thing, right?
24:53
SPEAKER_00: Climate change can be political and indigenous issues, and then you've got, you know, uh the the complexity around um Middle East or whatever it is that is on slate.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'll go back to the start.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: So governments when when I first started out on this um Odyssey, um uh, you know, we only have 15 years, but it was a couple of years to get it going, so let's call it 17 years ago.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: I was absolutely shocked that there wasn't a um uh a vetting process or a place where you had to get registered to have you know your um lessons or curriculum um uh approved.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: So that was my first big surprise.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: What anyone can just make a lesson and send it to a teacher and if they like it, they'll teach it.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: So no one unbelievable.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: Uh so I thought, okay, well, let's go.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: Um let's get our stuff together.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: And hopefully the way we're looking at and the way we're prepar preparing it and presenting it is appealing and is useful.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: And as it turned out, it has been.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the secret sources in that is um uh not losing your sense of humor, um being able to um to talk in a really um uh a really open and engaging way that can be readily understood.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: So words like anthropogenic are banned.
26:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, you gotta learn, you've got to look that up in a dictionary.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: We don't, you know, we don't want to use words that 4% of the population know the meaning of.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: We really want to have things open and engaging.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: So there's that side of it.
26:12
SPEAKER_01: So on the government side, we have actually uh avoided all government um uh support uh because once you do work with the government, you're essentially doing their bidding for them.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: You're writing the lessons they want you to write, um, you're doing it a certain way.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: There's a documentation, you know, sort of two inches thick that you need to adhere to.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: And that's not who we are.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: We're a nimble um uh, you know, organization who can really do what we think is going to be um most useful for our teachers and the kids that they teach.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: And we know that by doing a significant piece of research every two or three years.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: And we ask them, surprise, surprise, what is it that you want to learn more about?
26:52
SPEAKER_01: And uh and and we respond to that and we we give teachers what they ask for.
26:57
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a really respectful relationship and communication that we have with teachers.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you ask, uh you'd let us know, and we will um provide that to the best of our ability.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: So I think that also keeps you um really relevant in the uh in the marketplace.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: And as for uh you know, people getting met, some people just like to politicize everything.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: They're perpetually angry and shouty, and we all know who they are.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: They uh come on the tele after it gets dark, and um uh, you know, they uh like to, you know, we're all for free speech as long as you agree with us, which I find hilarious.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, I think we all do.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: I think it's you know, I'm making on that I have got a voice, mate.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm watching you on TV.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: And you're yelling at me and you're screaming at me, and I can't still I can't hear you.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: You don't spend too much time worrying about others, we just focus on our work and uh leave all the um all the all the fighting to uh to others.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: We don't get involved in any of that sort of bollocks.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: But it's interesting because I think the notion you refer to as Odyssey, and I think it really is quite an odyssey and it is a little revolutionary in many ways, what you you've done and are doing.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: And you've had great buy-in from corporate Australia as well, I know, because they obviously can see, and I know people who really value what you do and have jumped on board because they see the benefit of you know, and of driving a particular understanding, whether it's in science or recycling or whatever it might be.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: Do you think in a way there needs to be more alliance with the real world and corporate Australia where these kids are all driving toward, well, not all of them, because many go into varying spheres, but have we sort of got it asked about like, I know for example, I've got a 21-year-old who's working full-time and studying.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: So there's a great alliance between what he's studying and working full-time.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: And he's young, so he's already five years ahead of like others who have had to, you know, in the family, who have had to drive the study, work not, you know, earn nothing for six years while they're studying and you know, be sort of at the coal phase.
28:54
SPEAKER_00: And then they get their degree and then they go and they practice medicine or whatever it is they're doing.
28:59
SPEAKER_00: Do you have we sort of got it asked about a bit, do you think?
29:02
SPEAKER_01: Or yeah, well, for sure, because I I think we don't give enough respect to kids and students.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: And there's there's a um uh a university or a post school um institute in in Paris, um, which is doing exactly this thing.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: And I've just got up my wall here.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: And the guy who runs it, he says, we don't teach anything, the students create what they need all the time.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: And that to me is the essence of great education.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: You need to ask the student because everyone's different, everyone's got different skill sets and tolerations for concentration for whatever subject matter it might be.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: So for me, you've got to put the kid on the path to success by actually feeding them and supporting what they're good at.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: There's no good making a kid do sport when they're when they can't run.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: There's no point making a kid do maths when they haven't got the brain for it.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: If they're an artistic person, they should be sitting and sketching and notepadding.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: If they're a creative person, they should be doing so.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: The idea of you know, a kid comes to their subject choices and they're a writing person and they're great at humanities and they have um, you know, uh history uh and uh economics and um uh English literature, choose one.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, I'd like to do all three.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, mate, got to choose one.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one out of that box, one out of that box, and one out of that box.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: I mean I know I just I would sit there often, you know, and you're the same.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: You need to sit there and you'd watch this bizarre.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the whole thing, and I've got three that I've put through, and I I really hear what you're saying, this notion that there's something really awry with a system that tunnel creates tunnel vision before they even know who they are.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's the kids have to create their own adventure, and the education system needs to support that.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: And until we get to that, we're gonna continue to have our issues.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh, there's lots of you know, media like to talk down teaching and education and say how bad we're going.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: The reality is in Australia, in the capital cities, we're going fine.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: We're we're not dropping off at all.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: It's literally every kilometer you move away from a capital city, the teachers are less, um, the good teachers are less willing to go there.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: The pay rates typically drop off, the uh kids are less engaged, and they don't turn up to school as much.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: So in the cities, we're actually going fine, despite the they never break out the research and show what.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: So capital cities, big tick.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: We're not, we're not sliding at all.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: It's the lack of work we're putting into the regional and remote communities that is really letting us down.
31:29
SPEAKER_01: And we're not spending the money in the state school.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: We're giving so much money to the independent schools who don't necessarily need it.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, they get an oversupply of funding, and the state schools should be great schools and should be supported accordingly by um uh funding.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: And that's just something that we've been talking about.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: The Gonsky report said it 12 years ago, it hasn't been acted upon.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: I cannot understand why it happens.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: I can only assume there's lots of political machinations going on in the background.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: It's not in some people's interest to do it, and the lobbyists are winning over common sense.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, it comes back to government and the power of where education funds are going.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: And so, do you see an alternate model where not dissimilar to what you're doing, but the concept of corporate Australia stepping in and offering alternative routes to getting educated?
32:21
SPEAKER_00: And how does that look like?
32:22
SPEAKER_00: And how do you manage?
32:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, one of the problems is obviously we're dealing with such a precious role in our community education and our young kids.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: So obviously, there's there's caveats around making sure that that funding is effectively used and driven.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: But what you're saying, it's already an aberration that's not necessarily meeting the greatest needs in our community, like the remote and the rural.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: But even in the in the city schools, it's all very tunnel vision, isn't it?
32:47
SPEAKER_00: And it's pretty much driven.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the ATAR just came out this week for, I mean, that you know, people's scores and it's whether you get in or you don't, and it's like all madness and as usual.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: And it's just the ATAR in itself is just a surreal measure to me.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, a decade ago we did some work with La Trobe University, who had a program, they still have a program called Aspire, and they were one of the first in the country to do it.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: They may well have been the very first.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: And what they did, they allowed a 20% intake, not for students, not based on your ATAR.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: Your ATAR was not even looked at.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: And it was based on an interview process that was based on your community work, it was based on your volunteerism and how badly you wanted to do the course.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: And surprise, surprise, those 20% of kids that got in absolutely outstripped all of those that got in on their ATAR scores.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: Why?
33:36
SPEAKER_01: Because they were passionate, they'd had a think, and they knew what they wanted to do.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: As opposed to my number says I'll do this, I drop into this box.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: It's it's crazy.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: It really is.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: And that Aspire program led by um the Tribuni has now spread to other universities, they call it different things.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: So there is some progress.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: Intakes are now being based in some subjects at some places on a person's willingness and preparedness and enthusiasm for the course rather than the number that happens to pop up into the year.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, a week after your ATA, uh, unless you got 99, you go around bragging about it for the next 10 years, no one knows what their number was.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: No one asked you, no one did about it.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: It's all over in a week, maybe two days.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: It's surreal.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: And you and I know this because when you actually employ people, as I know you do and I do, I don't sit there and look at their ATAR.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, can you do what I need you to do?
34:24
SPEAKER_00: And who are you?
34:25
SPEAKER_01: And what do you want to tell me why you're great, you know?
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Why can't you do this?
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Give me the example of when you've been challenged in a role and how you responded and how did the people around you react?
34:34
SPEAKER_01: Not whether you got 84 in your science practice, for Christ's sake.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: Not helpful.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's not helpful and it's so embedded and entrenched.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: And I think that what you're doing is it definitely the co-face of transition and change.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: And what we need to look at is how can we, you know, what was I suppose, what do you see as the next steps to carefully and responsibly transforming our education system, which let's be honest, if you look at US, you look at the UK, it's all very Harvard, MIT, Yale, you know, this whole, I mean, that's a whole other story.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, my point is that we're dealing with some pretty ancient, anachronistic, entrenched notions of education.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: It's pretty hard to challenge it, which you're doing, but yeah, yeah.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it goes back to that Greco-Roman logic, that binary thinking of, you know, good and bad, you know, and we need to have more lateral thinking, that sort of trinary thinking.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: The entire the alternative to good is not bad, but also better, you know.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: What let's make things better, not just good or bad.
35:36
SPEAKER_01: How can we improve um, you know, the current view of the situation and have a better view of their situation as opposed to the good or the bad?
35:44
SPEAKER_01: So that's something that's been around for you know 2,000 years and uh it's been sort of fine-tuned by uh, I suppose the English, you know, to uh go and run the British Empire or the fire-flung parts of the world.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we've moved on from there.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: We need an education system that teaches kids how to create and how to think.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: Being um able to turn out your maths timetable, a computer does that, your calculator does that.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: You don't need to know your timetables, you don't need to know those things that a computer.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: We need to be human and concentrate on what humans can do that machines can't do.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: Do not teach humans how to be machines, or they won't have a job.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: We've got to teach humans to think, to see things, to work as groups, to be inclusive, to be able to come up with solutions that machines cannot come up with.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: And I hope we get to talk about AI a bit later.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: I was about to, yes, I was just about to raise that.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: I was coming, it's on the tip of my tongue.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm going, yeah, so we know that AI is coming forth, uh, following on from what you're just saying.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: And that's definitely already transforming our world.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: So to your point, the question is can AI create?
36:50
SPEAKER_00: And if so, what and how, and how are we going to adjust to this?
36:54
SPEAKER_00: Because every person I know is dealing with AI and their sphere of inf their sphere of living.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think like any, you know, any machine that you it's all about um what you put in and what you get out.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: So it becomes the um the conundrum for for us, for humans, for the thinkers, what sort of quality of information we're prepared to put in, how clever and how thoughtful that can be.
37:17
SPEAKER_01: Because the better that is, the better return you'll get.
37:20
SPEAKER_01: So I think that um uh that is absolutely integral to anything we do with AI.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: So there's gonna be obviously um issues with you know quality control, there's gonna be, you know, creators and verifiers, um, uh, you know, and it's got to be, you know, I think it's opposed to uh curating and creating are going to be sort of very much um on the on the plate to try and work out what is.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think it's something we're just really learning about too.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: And so a bit like um, you know, when computers first came in, the head of IBM in the 1940s said there'd be only a need for six computers in the world, and he was the uh industry expert at the time, and you know, he got that really wrong.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: So, us sitting here now, and I'm certainly not an expert on this, but so there's lots of challenges and lots of risks.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: But what I do think it'll be able to do with you know, kids that will be able to um be part of their um their training and their education, but there are risks around, you know, let's call it fake learning, like fake news when things get messed up.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: There'll be fake learning in there, and um, some AI machines will put out um you know misinformation deliberately, and they'll be like social media right now.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: But it will come that so the challenge then will be like fake news now.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: Um uh parents and teachers and kids to be able to um spot it and understand the deep fakes and things that now it's incredibly difficult.
38:40
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's very um probably, you know, it's never been better to be alive, but it's never been more challenging at the same time as well.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: So I think um, you know, some people um hear information that doesn't fit their ideology.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: More inquiring thought is a really good place for us to be.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: But um, there seems to be a lot more people who were uh more ideological than uh um sort of you know clear thinking and fact-finding.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, on that AI, I mean you obviously have heard the new Beatles song now and then, which is a which is a obvious, I don't know if you know about this, but it's it's great.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: It's a you know, John Lennon, they had an original recording of his and they've turned it into a new song with Paul McCartney.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's actually it's extraordinary because it sounds like a Beatles song and it's genuinely and it's been put out as a new song.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: It's the ultimate creative AI exemplification.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: So let's hope that there's more of that creativity and using AI in this next generation to create good things and things that that actually help our kids go on whatever journey they're going to go on.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I understand that that we do have challenges around what's real and what's not, because I can see it now with that with this generation.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that gets back to my point earlier.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: It's really, you know, we really want to keep the teacher at the center of learning.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: And I think kids will specialize earlier in the future if they're not now, because what AI can do is take out a lot of the grunt work.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's different to a search where you get sort of different things, then you have to sort of cobble all that together.
40:15
SPEAKER_01: But when the AI can combine all knowledge and give a kid an insight into what it might be to sail across the Pacific or grow a crop of corn in you know, regional New South Wales, or how I might go about you know breeding a different kind of dog.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: So, whenever people have got their specialized interest, I think AI can really accelerate that and give a kid or anyone for that matter a really clear understanding of their passion, what might be involved in taking that, because without that, um, if we go back a few years, there wasn't a really clear um path to understand that.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: It might be a chat with a, you know, your careers person.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: So I think specialization um will definitely come early and allow kids to really explore their passion and uh and their values and see what role or jobs or um how they might participate in society based on their passion.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: Getting back to that, we don't teach kids to do anything here.
41:10
SPEAKER_01: The students create everything that they need.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: So I think um if we can get to that, Deb, uh kids will have a greater clarity, I think, on their jobs, on their career pathways.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: There'll be more opportunities, and specialization will be at the absolute center of all of this.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: It'll be a whole new industry.
41:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think it's so fascinating, exciting, challenging, and scary all at the same time.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: And I'd like to, on that note, thank you so much, Jason, for joining us at the What I've Learned podcast.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: I've learned a lot.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: I hope you know you and I have gone on this interesting journey.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: And I think um I'm really excited to see how cool.org does develop because you you really are at the coal phase of this whole journey.
41:50
SPEAKER_00: You have a real opportunity to uh, I suppose, apply some of this.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: And to, I mean, I don't know if you're using AI yet, but I'm the same.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: I jumped on the chat GP and Paul didn't you know how I was putting the blame.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: How did water get to the earth?
42:06
SPEAKER_01: You know, I was in, and uh the best understanding at the moment is a uh um Jupiter got knocked off its uh orbit and went through the asteroid ice belt, which is sort of circles and part of the solar system.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: And um, as it went through, it smashed a whole lot of um big lumps of frozen rocky bits of ice, and they smashed into Earth for hundreds of thousands of years and went into the middle of the planet when it was a molten ball of lava, and then over time that built up, and then the water burst up from under the planet and then formed lakes and rivers and et cetera.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: It all happened over millions of years, and it was just extraordinary.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know how water got onto Earth, but there we go.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: That is the uh the latest theory.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure in 50 years' time there'll be another theory as to what happened and different supporting evidence.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: But all we can work with is the science of the day, the best understandings we have, and make the best of it.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: And the great thing is it's always changing, there's always some new information, and it's about embracing it and not getting stuck in our ideologies and jumping on something because of where the information's come from, not what's contained in the information.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a lot of shouty people who get confused about those things.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: I totally agree.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: And actually, as an explorer and adventurer, you continue to sort of forge your way through frontiers.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: And in fact, you remind me, I saw Richard Branson yesterday, who was here launching obviously his Virgin Voyage and he's he's going, he's been in space, and I mean he's just, you know, he's galactica and he's just he's also, you know, in a different way, but not a dissimilar way.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: We need people who are prepared to go to the, you know, new frontiers, which is sort of what you're doing with cool.org.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: In that sense, you have changed the way something is done.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: And he talks about how critical it is to be able to do that, even when people are naysayers saying no, you can't do it.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: And even when you hit the walls, it's actually being prepared to still get up off the floor.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Do you and I gather you have a very similar yeah, we uh we we keep getting knocked down and we get up again.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: You can make a song about that, I'm sure.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, on that note, thanks, Jason.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: Love chatting to you, and uh I look forward to seeing what you do next.
44:15
SPEAKER_01: Hey Deb, thanks for having me so much on your podcast today.
44:18
SPEAKER_01: I've really enjoyed it.
44:19
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: Love to