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Finding Magic in The Muck | The Eye Believe Podcast · The Eye Believe Podcast

• 0:03
  hey everyone
• 0:04
  I'm Megan with The Eye Believe Podcast
• 0:06
  and today we have an amazing guest
• 0:07
  we have Doctor Jason Frishman here
• 0:09
  and Jason we are so excited to have you welcome
• 0:13
  thank you so much I
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  I you and I have been talking
• 0:15
  or emailing for a little while
• 0:16
  I've been really looking forward to this conversation
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  me too so tell us a little bit about your background
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  sure well I
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  I've been part of a non profit
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  private practice here in Burlington
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  Vermont for about 17 years
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  so as a psychologist I see mostly
• 0:36
  I call
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  I used to joke and say it's a boys to men practice
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  which dates me a little bit
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  but you know
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  we'll see if your listeners get that joke
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  but anyway so I've been working in
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  really passionate about men's issues
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  men's health men's mental health
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  and the combination
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  or the connection between mental health
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  and physical health and about six years ago
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  in addition to my practice
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  I started a men's coaching program called journeymen
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  that specifically for fathers
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  and you know
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  with that coaching practice
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  we're building a community of
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  of dads who kind of care who um
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  really want to build stronger connections between them
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  and their kids their partners
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  themselves and their communities
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  I love that
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  so tell us a little bit about how you approach that
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  cause I'm sure that's pretty hard to crack that code
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  sure you know
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  the hardest piece is really getting dads to
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  raise their hand
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  seek this outer join that the myth of the
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  the meme that you know
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  men are really hard to engage in this sort of wellness
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  growth and development I try to not believe it
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  but there's a part that's really true
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  and so engaging guys tends to be a challenge
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  however once they're involved it's
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  it's really powerful guys
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  you know
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  I've had guys who have gone through the program
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  multiple times who are
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  you know one
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  one man who told me you know
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  I joined specifically so
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  I'd have a better relationship
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  with my teenage daughter and now I do
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  and I'm more in love with my wife
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  than I ever have been before
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  and so it's a really powerful experience and
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  and really what we're doing is
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  we're looking to help guys really identify and
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  and understand the the guiding
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  sort of stories in our culture
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  that have been models for our masculinity
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  for our fatherhood for our manhood right
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  how do we do this and we really challenge it
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  so in journeymen
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  there's a little bit of a social action
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  and social justice bent a service bent
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  because as I say
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  a connected father is a social activist
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  we are changing the world
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  and so
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  the way we do that is really questioning this sort of
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  epic legendary requirement for men
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  that we've got to be out there battling dragons and
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  you know um
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  getting treasure in these epic adventures
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  and so what we do is
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  we talk about building
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  what I call foundational adventures
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  and in the foundational adventures
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  there's the everyday all of these actions
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  all these things right we've got to do dishes
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  we've got to clean the bathroom
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  we've got to do all these things
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  and if we're imbuing
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  and we're seeing how to have our own values
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  and our meaning making expressed in these everyday
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  sort of mundane actions
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  then every day is an adventure
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  that brings along treasure
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  and excitement and risk
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  and the biggest lesson is even when we're in the muck
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  when we're struggling whether it's physically
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  whether it's emotionally relationally
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  in that is where we get to live our values
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  build meaning and actually
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  find the rewards and treasures that we're looking for
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  in our everyday that is an amazing way to put that
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  I love that and it's so true
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  so for journeymen is that a virtual thing
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  can you do it anywhere or does it have to be local
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  oh it is absolutely
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  it's all virtual um
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  you know my practice
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  my psychology practice is is based in Vermont
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  and even that actually is all virtual
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  world telehealth right now
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  but the journeymen program
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  what's wonderful is
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  I have guys from all over the country
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  actually from two other countries
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  I'm now international
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  which is lovely and we meet we have a um
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  a membership program
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  where guys who join based on their schedules and hours
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  they're put into a small group
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  and that small group meets virtually every two weeks
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  in addition there is a we have a curriculum
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  so every month there's a theme
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  so once a month I put on
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  or invite a guest to put on
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  a workshop based on the theme
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  and those themes are run through our small group
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  you know sessions
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  and then every guy is invited to both a private
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  text thread and uh
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  a group
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  there's a private text thread for their small groups
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  and then one for the entire community
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  where the conversations can continue
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  I like to say that I am privy to in depth
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  meaningful conversations over text
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  that most people don't get to see men doing anywhere
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  and it's really it's a beautiful experience
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  absolutely
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  I'm sure that's a great way to bond with each other
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  and I'm sure you do just create like a brotherhood
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  absolutely it's interesting
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  I'm actually looking for a different
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  word than brotherhood but that's really it
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  it is the idea that we
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  as men are looking for connections
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  and we've been taught
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  for generations that we don't need it
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  we're okay we don't you know
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  a lot of journeymen was built after
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  I had an experience back when I was in an office
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  doing therapy where I had a man
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  spent the first 15 minutes of his session
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  telling me about this great weekend
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  he had with his buddies in the woods
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  doing all the things that
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  you know guys might do out in the woods camping
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  and then he got quiet and his face fell and he said
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  you know
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  if my wife left me though
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  I'd have nobody to tell and No. 1
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  in and of itself that's heartbreaking
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  and No. 2
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  quite literally on the other side of my office door
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  and I know because he's been a client forever
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  and he's always early so quite literally
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  sitting on the other side of my door was another man
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  that if I could open the door and say
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  you two talk they'd actually have less need
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  for the therapeutic experience with me
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  because they've connected
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  and that's another reason why we went to
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  or I went to like a coaching online model
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  because I can now do that
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  I can now metaphorically open the door and say
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  you two should talk and that's happened
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  one male of my group put out
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  you know request for support
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  another guy who they had never met wrote back and said
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  you know I had that same thing happened to my house
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  here's my phone number
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  and they had a wonderful 2 hour conversation
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  and have stayed in touch since
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  and so you know
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  I think what happens is that
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  when we're going through life
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  when we're going through the daily struggles
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  sure
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  significant clinical issues
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  you know therapist is wonderful
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  but in my career I've been doing this for over 25 years
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  the vast majority of men that I have seen
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  you know they're in my office doing therapy
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  having powerful sessions
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  and then the moment they walk out
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  they're back into a community
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  in a culture that doesn't support the kind of growth
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  they're looking to do
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  that they need to do that we all need
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  and so you know
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  barring significant mental health issues
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  significant clinical issues
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  the coaching model that I'm providing
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  is about building community
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  in a brotherhood like you said
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  and that is what helps their health
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  their mental health their physical health
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  their you know
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  the idea of having
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  supportive and accountable group of men
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  who are on similar journeys
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  and yet we're not best friends
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  we're showing up for one another
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  it's not the buddies you know
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  maybe these guys will become friends in a different way
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  and go out and spend that time in the woods together
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  that'd be lovely but they're not just your friends
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  these are your your
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  your other journeymen who will hold your
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  or your feet to the fire who will really remind you to
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  to do the thing you said you're gonna do
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  I have found
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  that's been incredibly invaluable for these men
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  and growth producing for for the work they do
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  absolutely and I think journeymen is the perfect name
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  because they are on that journey together
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  so I think you came up with the perfect name
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  haha thank you
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  you know I
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  I haha
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  I I'm a
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  at my core in my training
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  and in my own sort of life's perspective
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  I'm a narrative therapist
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  so I'm still
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  I trained in something called narrative therapy
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  and that without getting all into that
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  part of that is the language we use
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  the stories that we use that builds and supports
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  and creates the reality we live in
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  so language is really important
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  I'm touch that you said that about journeymen
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  there's a lot of word play in that title
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  journeymen is like for example
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  like you said they're all on that same journey
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  they're all on a fatherhood journey
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  but the vast majority of of men's programs
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  uses something called the Heroes Journey
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  as a as a model
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  and the Heroes Journey if you don't know you
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  you'll recognize cause it's part of
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  you know almost every Pixar movie
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  Star Wars movies you know
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  Lord of the rings it's
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  the hero goes off and climbs the mountain
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  and battles a dragon and comes back with the treasure
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  and saves the universe right
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  that story is everywhere and people use it
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  and in the research that I've done
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  I have seen that it's actually problematic
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  and I think almost damaging to men and boys
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  because if we're not epic if we're not battling dragons
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  if we're not legendary who are we
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  and so I've had men in my office say
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  I'm just an everyday schlub
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  I'm I'm not epic
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  I'm not this and so
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  part of what journeymen did
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  or what the curriculum that I've built with journeymen
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  is about saying
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  that's not the only way to adventure right
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  when the heroes off battling dragons
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  first of all how did the hero get that way
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  there's a foundation right
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  they they learn skills and values and
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  and things were passed down and all of that
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  so that foundational adventure
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  has been missing in our culture
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  and so everyone but you know
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  particularly in my work boys and men
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  aren't being given these foundational elements
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  and so we step it back
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  we say before we go battling dragons
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  let's introduce your own imps
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  the little stuff that messes things up inside and
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  and how do we create everyday daily journeys
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  and so I'm very explicit your big adventure
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  your big journey is being a dad and a man
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  with your family not with us with us
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  you get to step in I call it a virtual inn
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  we have gatherings in our virtual inn
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  you get to step in the inn drop your shoulders and
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  and be you and get supported and share your story
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  and learn new skills or
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  you know
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  get some information from the weird guy in the corner
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  where do you know
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  however it goes that they're all on a journey
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  but they're on their own journeys
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  they just come together to give each other
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  and receive support so it also harkens back you know
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  in the sort of European apprentice
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  master sort of guild system for artisan work
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  there was in between apprentice and master
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  there was what's called the journey
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  and a journeyman was good enough not to be apprenticed
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  but not good enough to be a master
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  and they worked on daily things
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  I'm gonna you know
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  I'm gonna if I'm a blacksmith
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  I'm gonna make things 100 million times
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  and they were given the opportunity to go off
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  to neighboring villages or neighboring towns
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  apply their trades but then come back
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  and to me this is the essence of
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  of sort of masculinity and
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  and fatherhood is yes
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  we do have to go somewhere and do
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  but we're gonna come back
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  and perfect our everyday actions
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  because that's really the art
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  and the beauty of living as a father
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  as a man is to be able to serve the people whom we love
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  and whom we care about as well as ourselves
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  including ourselves
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  yes and I would just like to add that as a parent
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  sometimes
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  the most heroic thing you can do is count to five
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  and talk calmly and not blow your top and scream
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  and if you do that that you're not just a schlub
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  you are doing the work hundred percent
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  you say count to 5 and my favorite story
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  I was actually just telling someone recently
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  um you know
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  the whole parenting thing of counting
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  I'm gonna count to three right
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  and my favorite answer
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  cause I had a client once asked me well
• 13:47
  what happens if you count to three
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  and they don't do what you need them to do
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  I said best answer right
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  you say I'm gonna count to three and they could go
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  so what I'm not gonna do it
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  what are you gonna do well
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  after I count to three I'm gonna take a breath
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  and I'll probably count to three again
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  and hope you make a better choice
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  and that's it right
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  like we're gonna keep doing that
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  because that's the kind of thing
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  like as a parent in general
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  but as a father
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  we don't have to parent through dominance
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  and control and power as a man
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  we do not need to live in a time of dominance
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  and power and control
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  that's certainly not gotten us anywhere
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  from our families all the way up to our national stuff
• 14:28
  which
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  we don't just have to fully get it through right now
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  but as men
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  we have a real opportunity and responsibility
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  to work as partners I love that
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  it's so true that that everyday journey
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  that's where the hero pops up
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  you don't have to go on a
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  big quest and do some great epic thing
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  just showing up every day
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  that's epic absolutely
• 14:49
  100% and you get this opportunity
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  and if we look at that definition
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  you get to be a hero multiple times a day
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  you know that's a nice thing
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  and it's challenging I mean
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  that's the thing is it's hard
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  you know it's hard to show up like that
• 15:04
  it's hard you know
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  if you've got health issues
• 15:06
  if you've got overwhelming stressors in life
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  it's really hard to then take care of the little things
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  and yet if we flip that and say
• 15:15
  let's focus on the little things
• 15:18
  the big stuff it doesn't fall into place
• 15:20
  it doesn't just get better but you're more prepared for it
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  right so I say like
• 15:25
  if we lean into these foundational adventures
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  we have a stronger place to stand when things get hard
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  cause our foundation is solid
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  yeah that's so important
• 15:35
  it's wonderful and it's beautiful to watch especially
• 15:38
  you know I've been doing this for a few years now
• 15:40
  and I've had guys who've been with me for a long time
• 15:42
  I've had the honor really to like
• 15:45
  watch guys utilize the language and the terminology
• 15:49
  and the stories from journeymen
• 15:51
  and then build it into their everyday lives right
• 15:55
  and then like truly go through life's challenges
• 16:00
  in a way that helps them say
• 16:02
  you know what foundationally
• 16:04
  I'm gonna be alright
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  even if they're worried about health stuff
• 16:07
  or financial stuff or you know
• 16:09
  relational stuff or those kinds of things
• 16:11
  really powerful experiences that I've
• 16:13
  I was able to witness is one of the guys in my program
• 16:17
  a few years back went through a divorce
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  and what he said to me was
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  using the sort of skills and
• 16:24
  and strategies and just support from journeyman
• 16:28
  he came through that divorce
• 16:30
  and he and his ex partner are co parenting
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  in a way that like
• 16:34
  it made me cry hearing about it
• 16:35
  it was beautiful
• 16:37
  and he was like that never would happen right
• 16:39
  and it's just from these little everyday
• 16:42
  like awarenesses and understanding our own
• 16:46
  that our values
• 16:47
  this is something I like to talk a lot about
• 16:49
  is that our own values
• 16:52
  when we make them actionable and specific
• 16:56
  almost visible
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  then we can live them in a in our everyday
• 17:01
  and they are both the directions that we have to go
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  right if I know my values
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  I'm not gonna go in you know a different way
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  I'm gonna try to follow my values
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  so they give me the direction with which to act
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  but they're also the treasure
• 17:15
  because when I act within them
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  it feels good right
• 17:18
  so how cool would that be
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  is that
• 17:20
  if I know the things that are most important to me
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  I both am given suggestions about direction
• 17:28
  and right
• 17:30
  then and there are rewarded with that sort of love and
• 17:32
  and and good feeling that that happens
• 17:35
  even when we're in the midst of catastrophe
• 17:39
  calamity
• 17:40
  chaos
• 17:42
  so you mentioned before about
• 17:45
  when you have something like a medical diagnosis
• 17:47
  or some kind of stressor it makes things a lot harder
• 17:50
  a lot of
• 17:50
  our community is struggling with medical issues
• 17:53
  can you speak to that all
• 17:55
  like how would you recommend people start with
• 18:00
  finding a group like yours
• 18:01
  or how could it help them
• 18:02
  or anything that you feel fits in that
• 18:05
  we worked with men
• 18:06
  who got through lots of different life experiences
• 18:09
  and things and the first thing I would say is
• 18:11
  and I've seen this
• 18:12
  I actually started part of my career in Vermont
• 18:16
  working in hospitals and working with sort of
• 18:19
  lots of intense diagnosis and what not
• 18:21
  and what I have witnessed for years is
• 18:25
  if we know what's really important
• 18:28
  if we are and I mean explicitly
• 18:30
  I call it a values compass
• 18:33
  and I have guys fill out the directionals on a compass
• 18:36
  literally on a piece of paper and put
• 18:39
  you know tape it to the front of their phone
• 18:40
  so they not only can look at it on their phone
• 18:43
  but have to literally move it to get to their phone
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  so it is front of mind when you're aware of your values
• 18:50
  and I don't mean the sort of vague
• 18:53
  ethereal general values that we often have like oh
• 18:57
  I care about the environment
• 18:59
  that's lovely but I'm talking really specific
• 19:02
  about the things that are most important
• 19:03
  to you when you're aware of those things
• 19:07
  even amidst scary big diagnostic
• 19:11
  you know challenges
• 19:13
  then you know like alright
• 19:14
  I really care about this thing
• 19:16
  then I'm gonna do that
• 19:18
  I can be more fulfilled and I can live in a way that
• 19:22
  not that I have no regrets
• 19:24
  but rather I can live knowing that I'm living
• 19:27
  my own life in a way that I could be proud of
• 19:30
  you know my my guys I might even if they're listening
• 19:33
  they'd be rolling their eyes cause I say it a lot is
• 19:35
  you know when you finish an engagement
• 19:37
  or an interaction with a kid
• 19:39
  a partner a friend
• 19:40
  can you walk away feeling proud of yourself right
• 19:44
  and so when there's a medical issue
• 19:46
  we're always gonna be stressed
• 19:48
  watching individuals in my own life
• 19:50
  who have had these things
• 19:51
  my grandfather passed in the spring
• 19:53
  and he passed at a very ripe old age
• 19:56
  and also because of that deteriorated
• 19:59
  and that's I'm not comparing that to any sort of
• 20:01
  medical diagnosis but I am watching you know
• 20:03
  in watching him
• 20:05
  here's a man who as a model for me knew his values
• 20:09
  knew what he believed in knew what he cared with
• 20:11
  and did right up until the very end
• 20:13
  to the point where he was ready
• 20:15
  not ready in a sense of like
• 20:17
  I'm at peace so I can disappear into the ether
• 20:20
  but rather he was able to say what he needed
• 20:22
  to say and do what he needed to do
• 20:24
  in order to live the life that he wanted
• 20:27
  all the way up to his moment
• 20:30
  his final moments and so
• 20:32
  when it comes to diagnoses
• 20:34
  and challenging medical issues
• 20:38
  I think having a community
• 20:40
  and this is where a group like mine
• 20:41
  I think would be really beautiful is again
• 20:44
  these aren't your friends
• 20:45
  you know our friends have to be concerned with
• 20:47
  what's the right thing to say
• 20:48
  and how do I what can I do
• 20:50
  and I have to do something right
• 20:52
  this is a community of guys who aren't your friends
• 20:54
  I mean
• 20:54
  they may be friendly and they may become your friends
• 20:57
  but
• 20:57
  they're not as concerned about the right thing to say
• 21:00
  because in our community we support each other what
• 21:02
  what do you need to hear how can I help you
• 21:04
  do you know
• 21:05
  can I send a text that just says
• 21:06
  how are you doing this morning
• 21:07
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• 21:22
  to learn more visit Castlebiosciences.com
• 21:26
  so building these communities is essential
• 21:30
  as is building a mindset of
• 21:33
  I call it you know
• 21:33
  I said the magic is in the muck
• 21:37
  and and when we fight
• 21:39
  when we're stuck in the muck as hard as that
• 21:41
  is as overwhelming and scary and
• 21:44
  and hopeless as it may feel
• 21:46
  if we have that mindset
• 21:48
  we can find treasures and we can find joy in the muck
• 21:52
  and that's hard I'm not trying to minimize any
• 21:55
  anyone's struggles or or issues or challenges
• 21:59
  but you can and it's beautiful when it happens
• 22:02
  I don't know does that answer your question
• 22:04
  haha yeah
• 22:05
  I think so yeah
• 22:07
  um just you know
• 22:08
  it's a little more
• 22:09
  stressful when you've got a big medical thing over you
• 22:12
  and so I think that
• 22:15
  that connection
• 22:16
  and that sense of community is even more important
• 22:18
  when you're in one of those situations
• 22:20
  so I think it's very important
• 22:22
  yeah absolutely
• 22:24
  and yeah the ideas of you know
• 22:26
  stress
• 22:27
  and all of what happens when you're managing diagnosis
• 22:31
  and all of the treatment
• 22:32
  and all the appointments and all
• 22:33
  you know all of those things
• 22:35
  if we're looking at our everyday as an adventure
• 22:38
  and again I never want to say that flippantly
• 22:41
  it's a real challenge life is hard
• 22:44
  particularly
• 22:44
  when you have hard diagnoses and medical issues
• 22:47
  and so I'm not
• 22:48
  I don't mean to diminish or minimize that
• 22:51
  and yet we all carry mindset
• 22:54
  you know the way we go through life is
• 22:57
  and our perspective is a mindset
• 22:59
  and so
• 23:01
  when we can start to adopt a sort of adventure journey
• 23:06
  perspective to the way we look at life
• 23:08
  there's real joy and and treasure that can come out
• 23:11
  of that and it might not be the
• 23:13
  epic quest that you had hoped to be on
• 23:15
  but it is the one you find yourself on
• 23:17
  so yeah at least if you have the right mindset
• 23:20
  you can look for that magic in the muck
• 23:22
  which I love that term
• 23:23
  I think that's perfect because you are in the muck
• 23:26
  it's muckey and it's icky
• 23:27
  and there can still be great things
• 23:30
  and you know
• 23:30
  you can get past it and inspire other people around you
• 23:35
  and you can come out on the other side of that quest
• 23:38
  so I'll stick with the theme and be the hero
• 23:42
  and come back and be like
• 23:43
  I did it I
• 23:44
  you know kick cancers
• 23:46
  butt I'm over it and
• 23:47
  you can be
• 23:48
  the one that inspires that next batch of people that
• 23:50
  unfortunately
• 23:51
  are coming in to deal with what you just went through
• 23:53
  so I think that
• 23:55
  it's so important to know that you have that mindset
• 23:59
  and you have that ability to shift your mindset
• 24:03
  cause a lot of times when that diagnosis comes
• 24:05
  your mindset is not pretty
• 24:08
  but you can shift it
• 24:10
  and it's not easy and again
• 24:11
  we don't wanna say that flippantly
• 24:13
  it's not easy it's hard
• 24:14
  but if you do you can find those little magical moments
• 24:18
  and you can create something amazing out of it
• 24:22
  think that is the the take away there
• 24:25
  and so I think that that is
• 24:27
  I hate these word important again
• 24:28
  cause I feel like I just said that three times
• 24:30
  but it's so important our mindset is huge
• 24:34
  and um
• 24:35
  you know we talked a little bit
• 24:36
  we briefly touched on your mental health
• 24:39
  affecting your physical help
• 24:40
  I don't know if you wanna add to that
• 24:42
  but I feel like that plays right into that
• 24:45
  oh more and more we're learning how that is not just as
• 24:51
  you know a flippant- were using that word a lot
• 24:53
  but neither it's not just a flip saying right that my
• 24:56
  you know mind body connection
• 24:57
  we're learning more and more how that is so very true
• 25:02
  I had a a mentor once
• 25:04
  years and years ago
• 25:05
  say that the worst thing that the medical world did
• 25:08
  was cut the head off the body
• 25:11
  and this idea of we're separating mental health
• 25:14
  emotional health physical health
• 25:17
  my favorite example and I I
• 25:18
  I don't know the exact details so
• 25:20
  so I can't give a study on it
• 25:23
  but they have found nervous cells
• 25:25
  brain cells in our gut
• 25:27
  that responds to anxiety and depression
• 25:30
  and brain chemicals I'm
• 25:31
  I'm blanking for words right now
• 25:33
  so when we say we have butterflies in our stomach
• 25:35
  that's real like the physiologically real
• 25:38
  and so the way that our stress and our mindset
• 25:45
  and the way that we look at and engage in the world
• 25:50
  impacting our our physical health
• 25:52
  it is very real and so
• 25:55
  you know I don't think you can think yourself well
• 25:58
  you can't
• 25:58
  like meditate and have a big cut in your arm disappear
• 26:02
  right like we're not looking at the force or magic
• 26:05
  but certainly I have seen
• 26:09
  you know often
• 26:10
  I've seen it a lot where working on our nervous system
• 26:15
  whether it's through cortisol
• 26:17
  adrenal relaxation methods
• 26:20
  things like that by doing that
• 26:22
  our immune system gets better
• 26:24
  our ability to withstand and withhold stress
• 26:27
  can increase you know
• 26:29
  all of these things that can only do well
• 26:32
  they can only do better for us
• 26:34
  if we're practicing these things
• 26:35
  and yeah
• 26:36
  I I would start to repeat myself
• 26:38
  cause I do feel very strongly about that
• 26:40
  the way we take care of our bodies in
• 26:42
  impacts our minds and vice versa
• 26:44
  I agree
• 26:45
  and I think that when you talk about mental health
• 26:47
  there is a physical component of mental health
• 26:49
  like you've mentioned you know
• 26:50
  you have the serotonin and all of that stuff that
• 26:53
  you know affects your physical being is
• 26:56
  is mental health so
• 26:58
  there is much more physical to it
• 27:01
  it always is crazy to me
• 27:03
  how medical professionals will tell you oh
• 27:05
  stress is bad for your body
• 27:07
  but then they won't say
• 27:08
  but happiness is good for your body
• 27:10
  and how can it go one way and not the other
• 27:13
  yes
• 27:13
  it's not even as much happiness as it is contentment
• 27:18
  or again
• 27:19
  going back to a mindful mindset right
• 27:22
  happiness comes and goes right
• 27:25
  like something good happened
• 27:26
  I'm happy I'm done with it
• 27:27
  I'm not like it varies so dramatically
• 27:31
  and yet again if we go back to magic is in the muck
• 27:34
  well you're in the muck
• 27:35
  you're not going to be happy
• 27:36
  that's not the goal haha
• 27:38
  you can be stressed you can be challenged
• 27:40
  you can be upset you can be scared
• 27:42
  but you also can be content
• 27:44
  you could know where you're at
• 27:46
  you can be grounded
• 27:47
  you can be foundationally like solid
• 27:51
  and that isn't necessarily happiness
• 27:53
  but it is strong
• 27:53
  mental health that will help you get through
• 27:56
  that makes sense yes
• 27:57
  and I love that
• 27:58
  I think that's such a good way to look at it
• 28:00
  and it's just it's
• 28:02
  I'm gonna use the word again
• 28:03
  it's important so important
• 28:05
  as we're talking I'm thinking about family members
• 28:08
  that have gone through challenging diagnoses
• 28:12
  and real physical health journeys
• 28:14
  and without question every one of them
• 28:18
  who managed to imbue this sort of mindset
• 28:23
  and it's not just positivity
• 28:24
  I really I'm not at all saying like well
• 28:27
  let's just think positive and we'll do better right
• 28:28
  it's not about that but this mindset of
• 28:32
  you know life is a journey and I'm on it
• 28:35
  right and all that comes with
• 28:37
  my family members that I'm thinking about
• 28:39
  would not have used that language
• 28:41
  but when they have that mindset
• 28:43
  they had a good physical health journey
• 28:48
  it was hard it was scary
• 28:50
  it was painful it was
• 28:52
  you know all of those things
• 28:53
  and yet I'll never forget it
• 28:55
  you know I had an aunt
• 28:56
  and you know
• 28:57
  when we talked on the zoom
• 28:59
  her eyes lit up right and
• 29:01
  and she was happy to be connected
• 29:04
  this is we said earlier in the conversation
• 29:06
  but the level of connection
• 29:08
  I believe is
• 29:09
  is incredibly healing and
• 29:12
  you know men in this culture are more isolated
• 29:15
  more and more isolated the idea of loneliness
• 29:18
  and disconnection is incredibly harmful
• 29:22
  and so while we build connections
• 29:25
  that is for all of us for anyone go
• 29:27
  you know for anyone period
• 29:29
  particularly for anyone going through
• 29:32
  you know physical health
• 29:33
  you know challenging diagnostics
• 29:35
  connections are going to be healing
• 29:38
  they're helpful in healing
• 29:40
  absolutely I completely agree
• 29:42
  and you know
• 29:42
  surround yourself with those
• 29:44
  people that are a positive influence
• 29:46
  because
• 29:46
  you know how you feel after you've been with people
• 29:48
  there are those people that you feel uplifted
• 29:51
  and your cup is running over
• 29:53
  and you just feel better
• 29:54
  and there are people that you leave and you're like
• 29:56
  oh man I
• 29:56
  I have a headache
• 29:58
  so make sure that you're choosing those right people
• 30:00
  absolutely to add to that
• 30:02
  this is actually part of the curriculum
• 30:04
  in the model that I use is we have agency
• 30:08
  we can you know
• 30:08
  I often say we can write our own story
• 30:10
  and so as you're saying
• 30:12
  surround yourself by those people you feel good with
• 30:15
  that's a challenge that's hard right
• 30:18
  like if Uncle Joey comes by and you're like
• 30:20
  I don't really feel good when he's here
• 30:22
  and I don't wanna have to tell Uncle Joey not to visit
• 30:25
  maybe right now
• 30:26
  you should or could or might or get some
• 30:28
  someone to help
• 30:28
  like maybe another family member can be a part of
• 30:32
  I need to be in a space where I can
• 30:34
  maintain my own contentment
• 30:36
  and self awareness and again
• 30:38
  I'm hesitant to say positivity
• 30:39
  because that can get a little overused
• 30:41
  but to be in my space my health full space right
• 30:45
  I really like what you said
• 30:46
  I'm gonna surround myself by people who support that
• 30:50
  and with agency with authorship
• 30:52
  I get to choose
• 30:53
  who the other characters in my plotline are
• 30:56
  and sometimes you might not get to positivity
• 30:58
  but you might just keep from spiraling into negativity
• 31:01
  and that's okay us
• 31:02
  you know just as good
• 31:04
  I think sometimes yeah and I mean
• 31:08
  let's go even further
• 31:09
  is sometimes we spiral into negativity
• 31:12
  so when we do
• 31:13
  that's when our connections can be helpful
• 31:15
  that's when having that values
• 31:17
  compass can be available right
• 31:19
  having all these strategies and these self awarenesses
• 31:23
  right it's okay
• 31:24
  like you spiraled okay let's see what happens there
• 31:27
  wake up in the morning and have a cup of green tea
• 31:30
  and move forward let's see what happens
• 31:33
  yeah your epic quest for that
• 31:35
  they can just be pulling yourself back up
• 31:37
  out of the muck and back to your foundation
• 31:40
  and that's an epic quest sometimes too
• 31:43
  sometimes just getting out of bed is an epic quest
• 31:45
  what are the basic tasks in your life
• 31:50
  and yours is different than mine
• 31:52
  and mine is different than
• 31:53
  you know someone else's
• 31:54
  and so
• 31:55
  it might be today I'm gonna get out of bed and eat
• 31:58
  and if that's the case then celebrate it
• 32:02
  you know that's the other part is
• 32:03
  all great adventures begin and end around a table
• 32:06
  we think about some of the greatest movies
• 32:08
  they are often you know
• 32:10
  started being plotted at a table and finished with like
• 32:13
  some celebratory feast well
• 32:15
  you know what
• 32:16
  if you're having medical issues and eating is fraught
• 32:19
  well then yeah it might be
• 32:21
  just actually
• 32:22
  having something to eat is worth celebrating
• 32:24
  and that's beautiful let's do it absolutely
• 32:27
  this is where through narrative
• 32:30
  and sort of some of this journeymen work
• 32:32
  is becoming increasingly aware of
• 32:35
  the impact that dominant stories have on us
• 32:39
  we look at what are the prevailing stories for
• 32:43
  you know for me and like I said
• 32:45
  I work with men and fathers for what it is to be a man
• 32:48
  or what it is to be a father
• 32:49
  and some of those are lovely
• 32:51
  I'm certainly not like you know
• 32:54
  insulting or putting down all of masculinity at all
• 32:57
  I think that's you know I I think men are awesome uh
• 33:01
  but if we look at
• 33:03
  what are the guiding narratives and stories about
• 33:07
  you know whether it's men
• 33:08
  whether it's parenting
• 33:09
  whether it's people with a diagnosis right
• 33:12
  like what are the stories and expectations
• 33:15
  if we're aware of those things
• 33:17
  we can choose to stand against them
• 33:19
  or we can choose to step in a different direction
• 33:22
  and so most of us
• 33:24
  when it comes to these overarching dominant stories
• 33:29
  they're sort of like
• 33:30
  a whisper of culture in the back of your head
• 33:32
  at all times and if we're unaware of them
• 33:35
  we just follow you know
• 33:37
  and not in a bad way I mean
• 33:39
  that's that's kind of what humans do
• 33:40
  we organize our lives through stories and narratives
• 33:44
  but if we're not aware of them
• 33:46
  then who's driving the bus right
• 33:48
  like I'm mixing metaphors here
• 33:50
  but but I
• 33:51
  I think that it's really powerful to be increasingly
• 33:55
  aware of the stories that impact you
• 33:57
  so that you can drive the bus
• 33:59
  that totally makes sense to me
• 34:00
  As soon as you're aware of things
• 34:02
  then you can start to understand it
• 34:03
  and then you can start to take control and change
• 34:06
  and so that tracks yeah
• 34:09
  in my opinion
• 34:11
  absolutely and the added thing
• 34:13
  which I have found really powerful
• 34:15
  is when you're aware of dominant stories
• 34:19
  and you become aware of them
• 34:20
  you also start to become aware of other stories
• 34:23
  that have been pushed aside
• 34:25
  and so when I notice oh
• 34:28
  men are supposed to not show their feelings
• 34:30
  I mean this is a sort of overwhelmingly used one right
• 34:34
  like men are not supposed to ask for help or directions
• 34:36
  or when you notice that that story is so powerful
• 34:40
  and then you look at it and you're like well
• 34:41
  but I ask for directions I'm an exception
• 34:44
  all right you know
• 34:46
  or who else are exceptions
• 34:47
  what are the other
• 34:49
  narratives that have not gotten enough play or
• 34:52
  or that have been brought into the light enough
• 34:56
  because these dominant stories are overshadowing
• 34:59
  they're literally oppressive to other ways of being
• 35:03
  and so I would challenge right
• 35:05
  if you are struggling with a diagnosis
• 35:08
  what does society say about people with that diagnosis
• 35:10
  and do you have to follow that story right
• 35:13
  and whether it's being a male
• 35:14
  a man or a father or or anyone
• 35:17
  we can choose the author and live our own stories
• 35:22
  and what is a challenge it's also very freeing
• 35:25
  I love that I think that's perfect
• 35:29
  I would just encourage
• 35:30
  if anyone who's listening to this
• 35:32
  and they want to learn more
• 35:34
  see more please
• 35:35
  I would encourage them to get in touch awesome okay
• 35:38
  so where can somebody find you
• 35:41
  if they wanna join your program or reach out
• 35:43
  there's a couple things
• 35:44
  one is right now at journey minutes
• 35:46
  just me so if someone sends me an email
• 35:48
  they will get a response
• 35:49
  that is not automated and not written by someone else
• 35:52
  it's you'll they'll hear from me
• 35:53
  and so my email is Jason at nourishedconnections.com
• 35:59
  if people wanna learn a little more about
• 36:01
  the work I'm doing
• 36:02
  it is WWW dot journeymen foundation.com
• 36:07
  and I would say I'm on socials
• 36:09
  that people can learn a little more about my life
• 36:11
  in the way I engage and talk with people
• 36:12
  so I'll send you the links
• 36:14
  but I am on Facebook LinkedIn and Instagram
• 36:18
  those are the three that I'm most frequently on
• 36:20
  and what I would say is
• 36:21
  is truly feel free to anyone who's listening
• 36:24
  if you have questions about these concepts or what not
• 36:26
  it's obviously something I like to talk about
• 36:28
  so reach out
• 36:29
  there's no pressure or high sales to join my program
• 36:32
  I just wanna share this information
• 36:34
  because I think there's a unique and powerful
• 36:38
  different way to look at sort of men
• 36:40
  and going through everyday life as an adventure
• 36:43
  that I think would help most people
• 36:46
  and so the last thing I would say is
• 36:48
  but if people are interested in the father and program
• 36:51
  the last link I would give is um
• 36:53
  connected fathers.net
• 36:55
  and that's a direct link to the program that I run
• 36:58
  fantastic well
• 36:58
  we will link all of those in the show notes
• 37:01
  and I think that that is pretty epic of you to be here
• 37:04
  sharing this information with us
• 37:05
  so I hope that everyone else watching has an epic day
• 37:09
  on whatever quest you're on
• 37:11
  cause I know we are all on a quest
• 37:13
  it's all different but it's all a quest
• 37:15
  so
• 37:16
  we just wanna say thank you for tuning in and watching
• 37:19
  and I hope that you find some magic in your muck today
• 37:23
  thank you so much Doctor Frishman
• 37:25
  for being here with us
• 37:26
  thank you for all that wonderful information
• 37:28
  and to everyone watching
• 37:30
  thank you for tuning in or listening
• 37:32
  we are on YouTube please subscribe there
• 37:35
  you can also find the audio version on Apple Podcast
• 37:38
  Spotify and anywhere else you get a podcast
• 37:40
  please follow us in all of those places
• 37:42
  we really do appreciate it and it really does help
• 37:45
  and then if you would like to go to our website
• 37:48
  acureinsight.org there is a button at the top
• 37:51
  to subscribe to our newsletter
• 37:53
  we would love for you to do that
• 37:54
  we send a newsletter out every month
• 37:57
  that gives you the latest updates
• 37:59
  events and all kinds of great information
• 38:02
  please join us Tuesday nights
• 38:04
  we have a Tuesday night zoom meeting
• 38:05
  that can connect you with other omies
• 38:07
  and it's a great sense of community
• 38:09
  which if you listened to this podcast
• 38:11
  you know we appreciate some community
• 38:14
  so thanks for tuning in
• 38:16
  and we will see you guys next time