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From Prisoner to Pastor: The Kevin Harris Story · Nightmare Success In and Out

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What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:03
Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
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Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
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nightmares that set yourself free.
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We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:14
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
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These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad.
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There's some humor, but hopefully you can come away with
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a nugget of something that'll help you knock down some of the
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prisons you built up in your own mind.
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All right, welcome back nightmare Success in and out
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listeners is where you come for what happens when your worst
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fear becomes your reality. How do you adapt, survive,
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overcome, set yourself free and don't forget to follow,
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subscribe, like, comment all that good stuff that helps the
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show. Wow, I've got a great I got a
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great guest here. We were just talking before we
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got on here. It's I want to give a shout out
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first to Tony Gant who connected Kevin Harris and made my guest
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today. I think I wrote it down.
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Tony Gant was episode 66. He has an unbelievable story,
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also doing a lot of great things with Nation Outside.
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But I've got to tell you, Kevin Harris, Kevin Harris's story has
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nothing short of just flat out remarkable.
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He grew up on the Detroit's east side in the shadow of criminals
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and drug rings. So many negative influences.
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But Kevin looked up to these people as mentors and role
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models. And it really it led him to a
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sentence of 14 years in prison. He didn't lose his faith.
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His faith is what got him through his nightmare.
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Didn't lose hope. No, the old saying goes, it
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takes a village to raise a child.
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It took a village to encourage, motivate and overcome all the
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obstacles that Kevin had through his re entry to achieve his
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personal goals, his business goals, where he is now.
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Kevin is now pastor Harris at the Nazarene Missionary Baptist
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Church in Detroit. Even ran for office in 2020 for
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state Rep in in Michigan. It's just one of those stories I
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was telling him when we got on here.
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It's like one of those, you know, when you see Rocky 1,
2:19
Rocky 2, Rocky three, Why, why do we like these stories?
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It's it's the comeback. It's to get back up after you
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get knocked down and then you see somebody live through their
2:28
nightmare and thrive. I can't wait to unpack all this.
2:31
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Tell him Brent from Nightmare Success sent you Kevin Harris
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welcome. Hey, what's going on, Brent?
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I appreciate you having me on. Well, I I know you're a busy man
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and hard to tie down. I'm just happy that you made the
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time to do this. And and I can't tell you how
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impressed I am with your story and what you've been able to do.
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I mean, 14 years in prison is a long time.
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And, you know, a lot of people can get lost and
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institutionalized and lose hope. And that becomes the way they
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finish out their life, whether they're in or out of prison.
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And and you didn't do that. And I was wondering, you know,
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when, when I was reading your intro coming up on the hard
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streets, Detroit's east side. Can you take us back a little
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bit, Kevin? Growing up in those days, what
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that was like, what your life was like as a kid in that world.
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Yeah, it, it, it was, I mean, you know, the, the younger days
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when I was growing up. I mean, I'm a, I'm a 70s kid.
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I grew up in the 70s and 80s Me too.
4:30
There, there. There's a line that Jay-Z has in
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one of his songs that says, you know, he, he had to match the
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Reaganomics. You know, that was the that was
4:41
the air. But when I was younger, younger
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it was, it was pretty cool because, you know, even though
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my mom was single and and we've all heard that story, you don't
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really know how dire things are because you're just a kid.
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They they don't know any different that you, you you
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need. But, you know, coming into my
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teenage years, it was pretty tough.
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Detroit was, you know, hands down the murder capital of the
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United States. In our community.
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We had already dealt with, you know, alcohol epidemics and
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heroin epidemics, you know, folks coming back from the war,
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Vietnam, heroin flooding the streets in those days.
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But in my time of coming up at during that age, it was, it was
5:27
the crack epidemic. It was the beginning of crack
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coming to our town. And, and I happened to, you
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know, grow up. My, my family was from a place
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called Mariana, Arkansas. And there is a notorious,
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so-called notorious drug organization that came out of
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Marianna, AR, that took over the trade drug trade in Detroit,
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which was the Chamber Brothers. You know, they were from the
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same hometown that my mother and her family was from.
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But the bottom line, it was tough.
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It was it was tough. We never seen anything like that
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before. And, you know, just to see a
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whole community addicted to drugs.
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Everybody had a mother, a father or uncle, a sister or brother
6:16
who was addicted, who was addicted.
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A lot of kids grew up, you know, and, and when you get addicted
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to drugs and crack like that, in those days, you know, folks
6:25
didn't care about anything. They, they sold their food
6:28
stamps. They, you know, any money they
6:31
got, they stole, they broke and they did whatever they had to
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do. And the typical thing it was, it
6:36
would be, no, it would be no surprise to go to a friend's
6:41
house and open the refrigerator. And in the refrigerator is a a
6:46
bottle of a jar of mayonnaise with a butter knife in it, with
6:49
nothing in it, maybe a piece of bread.
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You know, that was a lot of kids grew up like that.
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And when you grow up like that, you know, it, it can easily get
7:01
ingrained in your mind when you come outside, you have to do
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whatever you need to do to survive, to survive.
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And that and, and, and it was it was rough.
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It definitely was rough. So when you got into your teens,
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you know, you talk about the the guys that you looked up to and,
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and what was going on in the streets.
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Was it was it just a natural thing that that that was just
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what was going on? And so your friends and that
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that's just how you everybody was living.
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Yeah, well, and, and, and it, it starts out a little more
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innocent than that, you know, you know, it starts out that,
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you know, you like any neighborhood, you grow up, you
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know, with a group of friends, little rascals, you know, But
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then all of a sudden, you know, you might have, you know, one of
7:54
those friends that disappears for a while, 2-3 weeks, a couple
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of months. And then that one friend shows
8:00
back up with a wad of money in their pocket and new shoes and
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everything looks great fashion. And you're like, Hey, what
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happened? Where, where, how, how'd you get
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this money? What are you doing?
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And then they, they tell you about who they work for.
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Where I'm I'm, I'm, you know, in those days it was called sitting
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in a spot. And because the older guys, they
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were running these crack houses and they would use the younger
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guys like myself to sit in the what we call sit in the spot.
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And you we would have to what they call roll that was rolling
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was making money. We would have to roll, you know,
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2447. And, and you know, if you sold
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crack for like $10, you can sell it for $212.00.
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And you made what they call a $2.00 top off of rock that you
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sold for $10.00. So you got $2.00.
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And then at the end of the week, you might have got, you might
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have got a salary, but you know, the so it was kind of a
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predatory thing, but you know, in the eyes of what people might
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have looked at and, and considered as predatory and, and
9:10
being predators towards these kids and young kids, for us, it
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was opportunity. Right, you were making money.
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You know, yeah, it was a opportunity.
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We didn't see it as that. We were.
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Getting paid a Commission to to sell something and and the
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opportunity was there. Right.
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So that, but that's, that's how we came up.
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And along with that, it came, it came a lot of danger.
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You know, you're, you're dealing with, you know, a lot of older
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folks who are strung out on drugs and, and, and they'll do
9:37
anything to get it. They, you know, there's been a
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lot of people that young people that were killed in those days.
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So it it was, it was pretty bleak.
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You probably saw a lot of that 'cause you were right in the
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middle of it. Yeah, it was.
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It was pretty bleak. It was pretty bleak.
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So, Kevin, when was it? How old would you have been?
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When you had your nightmare hit you that this was the big deal,
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that was the one that was. It felt different than anything
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else you dealt with. And in terms of being dealing
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with the police, getting incarcerated, you know,
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unfortunately I was 18, you know, by the time, by the time
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my classmates were graduating, I was already in prison.
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What was school like for you? What I meant to ask you that
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like your school life, what what was were you living 2 lives?
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Were you living the street life and going to school and doing
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being a kid but then being kind of in the adult world?
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Is that kind of what that rolled into?
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Yeah. Absolutely.
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You know, ironically, you know, you have the the the the series
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on stars right now. BMF yeah, with with, you know,
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Big Meech and Southwest T you know, and there's episodes in
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the early episodes where that was showing how they were still
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going to school, you know, while selling drugs, living at home,
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you know, and sometime if if the family structure is broke down,
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you know, it was some pretty challenging situations that I
11:15
was growing up with. But yeah, you in my first, you
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know. Did you have siblings?
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Kevin, that you the in your family.
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I did. I did have a older brother.
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I did have a older brother. His name was Steve and you know
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it it by the time I was 16, Steve was 18 and he was steeped
11:36
in the drug, drug trade. You know, he was driving a Jeep,
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couple of Jeeps back then they called him Dodge Raiders.
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You know, they had came out. They were like these fancy
11:47
looking Jeeps. And here my brother, 18 years
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old, pulling up in a Dodge Raider.
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I'm 16 and you know it. There was no more working at
11:57
Little Caesars anymore Because if you work at Little Caesars or
12:00
McDonald's, you might have made in those days, $150 at the end
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of the week where you could go, you know, because by that time
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we graduated, we, we weren't working.
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We learn how to buy our own houses or sometimes we would get
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what you call fronted, you know, ounces.
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In other words, if I bought 2, you know, my connect would front
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me too. That way I would have more.
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So I would in, in, in those days we were paying for like $700.00
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an ounce and off that $700.00 oz.
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Once you rocked it up, chopped it up, bagged it up, you could
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make $2000 off of it. So off of off of $1400, you got
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what we call fourteen $4000 worth of work they're made.
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So you're making about a $2500 profit.
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Yeah, a lot different than McDonald's.
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In a weekend. So here he is.
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I've just made four grand, whereas my mother is telling me
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I need to keep my McDonald's, my McDonald's job.
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And unfortunately, I just didn't have to Wherewithal for that
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logic to even compete compute. And you know, I know it was
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logic now and and and and she knew it was logic because she
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knew that everything that came along with with selling drugs.
13:22
But as a young kid, you don't even have the faculties to make
13:27
it make sense. I I just made four grand in two
13:30
days and I'm going to go work at McDonald's and make 125 thirty
13:36
dollars a week. So it, it, it just, it totally
13:39
took our mind somewhere else. And now you can be up in school
13:43
and play the big shot. You know, you can, you can flirt
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with all the, the little girls and, and, and of course, they,
13:51
they, they like it because they know you have money.
13:53
Yeah, No. So it, it, it's really a ironic,
13:58
you know, lifestyle, you know, and, and a way to grow up and.
14:02
So when you got hit, you were you were 18, so you would have
14:05
been like a senior in high school.
14:07
Yeah, because I, I, I dropped out in, in my junior year.
14:12
Yeah. The, the streets came calling.
14:15
And you, you know, you just, unfortunately, you just don't
14:18
have the foresight to know this is not going to last forever.
14:22
You need to be putting money up for lawyers.
14:24
You need to be stashing money. But you made it back so quickly.
14:28
You, you know, you might make a couple of $1000 and go blow it
14:32
all because you're thinking to yourself, I'm going to make it
14:34
back. Tomorrow, but this weekend I'll
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I'll double it. Yeah, that's the way.
14:38
That's the way kids think, though.
14:40
Yep. So when you get when it happens
14:43
to you, when, when you're around 18 years old, did you have any
14:47
idea Kevin, that anything was coming?
14:49
Did you feel any heat on you or was it a surprise?
14:54
It was cat and mouse, you know, it was, it was cat and mouse
14:58
and, and, and I got caught because you know, your name,
15:02
your name is, is out there ringing down at the, the police
15:05
station. You're hearing, you know, you're
15:08
the informants are talking about you and you're seeing, you know,
15:13
you see some of the most ironic things out, you know, in those
15:16
days when you were, you're, you're selling crack.
15:19
I have this image in my mind of, you know, a brother who, you
15:25
know, he's much older than me, but everybody knows that when he
15:30
was in high school, he was a track star.
15:33
He was a speedster. So you might be out there at
15:37
night selling drugs and the police have some type of sting
15:41
going on. Now I just sold the guy the
15:43
drugs and the next thing you know, you see this guy shooting
15:47
down the street like Flash Gordon.
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And it, it, it's almost what's funny about it.
15:52
The, the guys, we're laughing about it because we know that in
15:56
school he was a track *. And now we're seeing the police
16:01
try to chase him and. He's trying to catch you.
16:04
All that these are the type of sites and things that you would
16:07
see in those days. So, you know, it it was it was
16:10
hot. What we call hot the you know,
16:12
there, there was a rap song called The Block is Hot, you
16:15
know, so when you're out there selling drugs and hustling,
16:19
yeah, the block would be hot. You know, the block would be
16:22
hot. I've been in houses where, you
16:24
know, we're selling all kind of drugs out the house and the, the
16:30
the marked cars would would drive by slowly and just shine a
16:34
big light on the window that you're looking at.
16:36
You just got to got to, you know, dug out the way because it
16:41
it's what we call hot. So it was a.
16:43
Lot to live with, yeah. A lot of cat and mouse and
16:47
eventually it was, you know, you, you, you were due to get
16:50
caught. But that's just the way things
16:53
work back in those days. So when you get picked up, is it
16:57
a knock down the door thing or is it what what how does it
17:00
happen? Well, I was kind of set up.
17:05
You know how I got caught? It was really, really stupid
17:10
because there was a neighborhood guy's his girlfriend, you know,
17:17
I was messing with his girlfriend and he was always
17:20
really upset about that. We were always going back and
17:23
forth about it. She was going back and forth
17:25
about it with him. And one day he just, he just
17:28
called the police and told them everything and they waited, They
17:33
waited an hour. So I ended up having to go and
17:37
make a, a delivery because I had other parts of town that I was
17:41
was supplying. So I called the cab and when the
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cab came, myself and one of my partners, we came out the house,
17:51
We got in a cab and cab took off.
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And the next thing you know, police got right behind the cab.
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And I, I mean, I was loaded down with, with drugs, probably had a
18:03
couple of $1000 worth of crack. I was going to go drop off to
18:07
the other place. So when they pulled us over, you
18:12
know, I stuffed these drugs. I just started stuffing the
18:15
drugs and somehow I stuffed them in the seat, but up and, you
18:21
know, the police took us out the car and they, they searched the
18:24
cab and, you know, they had us sitting in the back seat of the
18:27
police car and it took them so long.
18:32
It took them so long. I, I really was sitting back in
18:36
the back seat of the cop car hoping and praying they're not
18:39
going to find it. They're not going to find it.
18:41
They stopped the search a couple of times, started talking to
18:44
each other and, and. And you know how when things go
18:47
bad, it's always got to be one more.
18:49
I'm just going to serve more time when.
18:51
He. Came out with with the with the
18:57
bag. My mind just went blank after
18:59
that. Oh, man, So what happens after
19:04
that? Like how long a processes you go
19:05
through Kevin with by the time you get hit that night to when
19:11
you're standing in front of a judge and you're getting 14
19:14
years. Oh man, it was about six months.
19:20
I went to trial and I went to trial because I thought I had a
19:26
good chance of beating it because the cops, to make a Long
19:30
story short, and this is common, you know, you'll get caught with
19:35
drugs or the gun, you'll get caught with whatever it is.
19:40
But then what the the police will often do is, especially in
19:44
those days, they would go back and make a story to fit the
19:49
scenario, to justify you to getting caught.
19:53
So if if it would have, you know, came out in court actually
19:58
what happened, we really just stopped him because we didn't
20:02
have probable cause. We didn't have anything.
20:05
But what they said was along with getting these tips, the
20:09
officer made-up a story. About how he was watching me and
20:14
my friend on, you know, on the block selling what what we call
20:18
hand to hand combat, you know, actually selling drugs, making
20:22
hand to hand exchanges with, with customers.
20:25
He actually observed us and that was the reason that he stopped
20:29
us. But that never happened.
20:30
The car, the cab pulled up, we came directly out the house
20:34
where he didn't anticipate. There was a lot of witnesses out
20:36
there that saw us come directly out the house.
20:39
So it was we had an evidentiary hearing and the judge had a hard
20:43
time not throwing it out. But you know how it goes.
20:49
I'm not going to throw this out, even though I know you're
20:51
sitting up here lying on these guys.
20:54
You know, they sent it to trial anyway, So I felt like because
20:56
the cops were telling so many lies that I could beat it.
21:00
And boy was I wrong. That didn't happen.
21:07
When you got 14 years, did you think you were getting 14 years,
21:11
Kevin? No, no, I'm not.
21:15
I, I thought I might get 5 or 10 because of my record.
21:20
You know, I was always in the stuff as a kid.
21:25
You know, the judges were tired of seeing my face.
21:28
But no, I absolutely not. Absolutely not on a nonviolent,
21:33
you know, drug charge. Absolutely not.
21:35
And in those days, you know, this was the late 80s and early
21:40
90s, it was common that, you know, some people have been in
21:46
shootouts and, you know, ended up catching manslaughter cases.
21:49
You did six or seven years on a manslaughter and came home.
21:55
You know, I think it's much different now.
21:57
I think now a manslaughter you probably going to minimally get
21:59
10 you know, but in those days you would do 6.
22:03
Or seven. Oh, yeah, the drug, the drug
22:04
laws were so harsh. Still are harsh.
22:07
But I mean, back in those days, it was.
22:09
It was. It was, it was, it was terrible.
22:13
What, what, what, what went through your mind though
22:15
thinking When, When she said 14 years?
22:18
What, what, what, what did you think?
22:20
What were you? What?
22:21
What? I thought my life was over.
22:24
I was 18 years old. You know, frankly, for me, in
22:31
those days, two weeks was a long time away.
22:37
I don't know how kids compute in their mind, but two weeks was a
22:42
long time. You know, I was going to do
22:44
something. We were talking about what we
22:46
going to do this weekend, in the next couple of days and you're
22:49
talking about a couple of weeks. So to hear 14 years to get a 14
22:53
year prison sentence. Almost as long as you've been
22:57
alive. But you know, at 18 years old,
22:59
fourteen years is is half almost.
23:02
Yeah, I thought life was over. I I thought, I thought it was
23:06
over. So.
23:10
The only way I could. Describe it.
23:11
I, I can't, I can't, I mean, at that age, I can't imagine
23:13
somebody saying we, we're, we're taking you away into prison and
23:20
you're, you're not just, you know, a couple weeks, not a
23:23
month, not a year, not five years, but 14 years is a long
23:27
time. I want to talk about how you did
23:31
your time in prison. Before we do that, I want to
23:34
recognize the White Collar Support Group Nightmare Success
23:38
Podcast is sponsored by the White Collar Support Group.
23:41
It's the world's first support group devoted to people
23:43
navigating the white collar justice system.
23:47
I'm a member of the White Collar Support Group and I can tell you
23:49
that this is a bunch of people who help each other through the
23:51
criminal justice journey for free.
23:54
Whether you're just starting your journey or you made it
23:56
through the other side, this is a great space for you.
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You can join us on Zoom Monday, 7:00 PM Eastern Time, 4:00 PM
24:02
Pacific. For for information, go to
24:05
prisonist.org. That's prisonist.org.
24:08
Start here. So Kevin, you, they take you,
24:15
you, you walk into this prison. Do you have anything in your
24:21
mind about strategies or anything about how you're going
24:24
to live in this new primitive world?
24:25
Are you just walking in as an 18 year old kid hoping nothing
24:29
crazy happens? No clue.
24:32
Definitely walking in, you know, as a 18 year old kid, just, you
24:38
know, trying to figure out what's going to be next.
24:43
I remember, you know, I went, I went to, you know what they call
24:49
MTU, Michigan training unit. It was known as gladiator
24:52
school. Yeah.
24:54
For young school, I've heard that the gladiator school, yeah.
24:57
Yeah, it was in Michigan train known as gladiator school
25:01
because you were going to earn, you were going to earn your
25:04
stripes. But I remember when I first got
25:06
in there, it was this little white kid and he was in a room
25:13
and, you know, Sale and I started talking to him to to
25:16
through his door and he was in there for two life sentences.
25:22
I don't know who we care. I don't know if it was parents
25:26
or who it was that he killed, just a young kid, about 15 years
25:29
old, obviously had been waived as an adult, but I didn't know
25:34
anything about all that. I just knew that this little
25:36
young kid was in an odd. That was one of my first
25:40
experiences. And then, you know, at that
25:46
time, the prisons were so crowded that they had all of us
25:53
and it was many young people from across the state.
25:56
They just had us all in a big gym with bunks from end to end,
26:03
like double bunks from end to end.
26:06
This is when they first they were building coal barns because
26:10
the I think it's. Just the house people.
26:12
I think at that time, Michigan's population exploded to about
26:16
52,000 people that were in prison.
26:20
So that kind of those first months that kind of made it a
26:26
little easier because you're in there with kids your age and
26:29
your you know, and they got the, the, the TV screen up there and
26:34
your MTV wraps is on. And you're just trying to, you
26:39
know, you're in with reality, but somehow you're trying to
26:43
forget that this is actually happening by just the escape.
26:49
Of through the TV, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and, and, and, and I
26:53
really think, at least from my experience, that was one of the
26:55
reasons that rap and hip hop had.
26:58
We were already like rapping hip hop when we were in society to
27:02
get it there. And that's all you got on new
27:07
dimensions just to see, you know, what we thought may have
27:11
been going on in, in society. But regarding doing the time,
27:17
one of the things that I learned and, and I think anybody who's
27:23
done some serious time will probably say this.
27:27
If you're going to make it, you literally have to forget about
27:30
the world. You, you have to forget about
27:34
what's happening on the outside, girlfriends, even family,
27:39
because if you're not going to make it, you're not going to
27:43
make it. You have to totally just shut
27:46
down as if that world doesn't exist in the only world you know
27:51
is is this world and you have to exist in that world for for
27:56
those years that you're in the world.
27:58
But if your mind your mind is out in society, you're not going
28:02
to make it. You are not going to make it.
28:05
You, you getting Dear John letters in and all the time.
28:08
You see a lot of guys in the early days when they get locked
28:11
up, they'll be on the phone arguing with girlfriends and
28:15
going back and forth and you know all that, some of the early
28:19
stage stuff that happened and it's heart wrenching.
28:21
I went through it, you know, I it's heart wrenching.
28:24
You know, you're hearing different things about, you
28:28
know, people out there in society and, and it's very
28:31
difficult. So Kevin, I know one of the
28:35
things you know, you're a man of faith and you know you, you talk
28:40
about being a nightmare when you were in, but your your faith
28:44
was, was that faith with you before you went in or is did you
28:48
find that while you were in prison?
28:51
Well, fortunately for me, you know, I had what we call in the
28:57
church community a praying grandmother.
28:59
Yeah, I had a praying grandmother down in Marianna, AR
29:04
and, you know, the family coming out of the South with deeply
29:11
rooted in religion, they couldn't have made it.
29:16
You know, they were down in the Mississippi Delta, not too many
29:20
generations away from slavery, sharecropping, the aspect of God
29:27
in my life was something different.
29:30
And my mother would send me and my brother down South for the
29:36
summers. And when we would get down
29:39
there, it was culture shock. Oh, I bet it was culture shock
29:42
because in Detroit, no, you know, people don't speak.
29:47
You know, they're not friendly. But when we would go down South
29:50
and you know, Arkansas folks with feet, folks with wave.
29:55
Yeah, totally different deal. You know, it's funny that you
29:57
say that, though, Kevin, 'cause I grew up, you know, not in
30:01
Detroit. I was, I grew up in a little
30:03
town in Springfield, MO, that was southwest Missouri, kind of
30:06
close to Arkansas. And but my grandparents, one of
30:10
them lived in Red Top, which was outside of Buffalo, Missouri,
30:13
which was like, you know, 3000 people.
30:16
But we used to go out down on that farm, like, you know,
30:18
parents to keep us there a couple weeks or whatever.
30:20
Well, they did whatever. And you know, it is funny as a
30:24
kid, like even from me being in Springfield that was considered
30:29
a city kid to the, you know, these farm kids that but it's a
30:34
totally different world turtle, totally total different way of
30:37
life. But I think it was, it was good
30:39
for me as a kid to have that. It was that you know my time
30:45
going down to Arkansas for the summers were the richest times
30:50
of my life. I gained some of the richest
30:52
experiences of of my life. Even though they were poor, they
30:55
didn't have anything I learned about love and respect and, you
31:01
know, going to church. I always tell this story
31:05
sometime about it had to be in the 70s.
31:09
And first of all, when I went down South, that was the first
31:12
time I had seen albino. I'd never seen albino before.
31:17
You know, that's, you know, somebody just black, but their
31:19
skin and their hair is flying. And there was this albino girl
31:25
and I can't remember the name, maybe Mobley, what's the name or
31:28
something. But people with it was the old
31:31
church house. It was kind of like a, a shack
31:34
on a dirt road. And people would come, they
31:37
would be making a beeline to get to that church on Sunday
31:40
mornings. I was a kid.
31:41
My grandmother would be walking a few steps up.
31:44
Me and my brothers and my uncles and aunts, we would all be
31:47
making our way. People would be cutting across
31:49
the cornfield down the road. You just saw people making a
31:54
beeline to that church. And I saw this girl, she with an
31:59
albino, and she was literally crawling on her elbows and
32:05
knees. And she kind of had this strange
32:08
walk, and it was like, it was like a spider.
32:14
I didn't understand being in the 70s that the polio vaccine had
32:20
not necessarily made it all the way to those Backcountry homes
32:26
and back in the woods and everything.
32:28
But when I saw her, it was I was freaked out.
32:33
Oh yeah, that would have looked kind of scary.
32:35
It was the weirdest thing. But what stood out to me more
32:39
than anything is there must be something about this church.
32:46
There must be something about this church that people are
32:49
trying to get here at all costs, not understanding that that was
32:54
one of the things, the few things that people had, you
32:58
know, the church, it was, was the the social hour for the
33:01
community. Yeah.
33:02
Yeah, exactly. You know, so, you know, God,
33:08
religion and the church, and it had a big impact on me from the
33:13
time I was growing up, which was turned out to be a great thing.
33:18
I would even say the greatest thing for me.
33:21
So that all while I was going through all these other things,
33:24
you know, this was instilled in me by my grandmother, even
33:26
though I didn't see her except for the summers, you know, But,
33:33
you know, when I would get back to Detroit, just forget about
33:37
everything. You just.
33:38
Oh yeah. So I, I, I get that though,
33:41
Kevin. So that was in you and when
33:44
you're you got behind the walls that that was something that you
33:47
carried with you. It was.
33:50
It was, but it took a while for it to come out because you're
33:54
trying to fit in. Yeah.
33:55
You know, for me, my whole neighborhood, you know, being
34:02
locked up, it turned out to be like summer vacation, you know,
34:05
because my whole neighborhood. There were a lot of people
34:07
there. With locked Up, we were all in
34:11
there together. We were all kids.
34:12
We were all still young and silly and fighting guards and
34:16
there was so many guys from my neighborhood, Seven Mile.
34:22
We literally got into it with the Islamic organizations and
34:27
that was unheard of. The more science temple, those
34:31
guys have power in there. But we were so wild and young
34:37
that it wasn't that they didn't want any smoke, but they would
34:41
like leave them guys alone. Yeah.
34:44
So it so for a while it was it was kind of like just
34:48
unconsciously acting a fool. I went through some tragedy.
34:54
My mother was killed. While you were in.
34:58
Yeah, while I was locked up, the most devastating thing to happen
35:02
to me in my life and my brother didn't get to go to her funeral.
35:09
I did get to go to her funeral. I was in State Blues and I had
35:12
an officer escort. It was embarrassing, you know,
35:18
for that to happen. And after that happened, that
35:23
happened in the early, like 92. I went downhill for about 5 or
35:30
six years. I really went downhill.
35:33
Depression, anger, it was rough. And that's when I got to the
35:37
point where I, I really felt like, you know, I need some
35:40
help. I need help.
35:42
I need to draw on. I need to draw on this faith
35:48
that my grandmother instilled in me.
35:50
And fortunately, my grandmother would write me every now and
35:53
then and encourage me, you know, continue to pray, you know, go
36:00
to church, different things like that.
36:02
Then it was another guy, you know, this was a guy, he was
36:06
from Jackson, MI because that's one of the towns that we used to
36:10
go to, a guy named JD Potts. We were ourselves were next to
36:16
each other. And one day I was in my cell and
36:20
this guy was next door in his cell praying and praising the
36:24
Lord. Now this guy on the on the
36:26
street, JD was a just a straight clown.
36:31
You know, he was getting high, but he was one of those guys who
36:33
was really funny when he got high, he still was really cool.
36:38
Everything was a joke. He wanted his crack, but he
36:41
still would crack a joke. So he just had this jolly
36:46
spirit. He was JD was a cool crackhead
36:51
back of a back of a better man. We're we're locked up now and JD
36:56
still said he's over here praying and praising the Lord
36:59
and all this stuff. And you know, one day when they
37:02
broke us from yard, you know, I'm looking at them and I'm
37:05
like, I just couldn't. He always had that spirit about
37:09
himself. I'm like, man, what's wrong with
37:11
you? You know why are you so you know
37:16
Dolly. Right.
37:17
Why is this working for you? And you're in here, you know,
37:20
And he was like, Kevin, you need to come to church, man.
37:24
You need to come on, come on, brother, come to church.
37:27
And of course, what did I have to lose?
37:32
I had been going through hell for seven years up to that
37:36
point. A long time.
37:38
So I went ahead and went to church with JD and it was a
37:43
white pastor and he was there there talking and talking about
37:47
the Word. And I remember thinking to
37:51
myself when I was listening to him, I said to myself, this is
37:56
what life is supposed to be like, you know, freedom or wife,
38:04
living right, doing good. And here I am sitting up in here
38:10
with with seven more years to go.
38:12
Yeah, but it touched my heart so deep because I desired like man,
38:19
I'm not even living life. Yeah.
38:21
You want that? Yeah.
38:23
I'm, I've been in here since I was 18 and I haven't gotten the
38:27
experience into this. And that sounds good to me.
38:33
You know, I know I was selling drugs and but that doesn't make
38:37
sense. If this sounds good, I think I
38:39
would like that. And, and it that made such an
38:42
impression on me that I began, you know, reading my Bible and
38:47
praying. And man, if you read the word
38:52
with in context, it provides hope.
38:57
You know, it was my hope. A lot of people, you know, they
39:01
may have gotten through what they gotten got through or how
39:03
they got through it, But I, I, I probably wouldn't have made it.
39:06
I would have been the one who would have lost his mind had I
39:09
not found that that hope. And hope is the biggest.
39:13
I mean, you know, hope. I remember I had a guy named
39:17
Romo on the show and, and he said don't ever take away hope
39:20
from someone because that might be all they have.
39:23
And that's so true. You know that one piece could be
39:26
the thing that makes you survive and get to the next step and.
39:30
Because it was saying some good stuff.
39:32
It was saying some good stuff. It was talking about how you can
39:35
be blessed and you can you can be living a good life.
39:38
And that idealized life just made more sense to me than
39:44
anything I had ever thought about before.
39:46
So did did the mindset change then that Amy had seven years to
39:52
go? Did you start being acting
39:56
different in that world? I did.
40:00
I did. It was a struggle at first
40:03
because I remember, you know, I got transferred to a prison camp
40:07
a lower level, and I was in my room and I could look down from
40:14
my room at these guys who were having Bible study under a tree
40:20
and. I wanted to go there and I
40:23
wanted to get to that Bible study so bad that I had this big
40:26
old Bible and the problem was I had to walk past all my friends.
40:32
Yeah, peer pressure. You know, with with those guys
40:37
who were studying the Bible, I would have had to walk past
40:40
everybody and they're looking at me with this big Bible and they
40:43
would have called me out. Ken, where you going?
40:46
Come here, man. Let you know you've been going.
40:48
Yeah. What are you doing?
40:49
Yeah, so while I was in my room, I was trying to put the Bible on
40:54
my shirt, under my shirt to see, you know, if I can hide it, how
40:59
I could play it all. And finally I just, I just got
41:03
off the nerve. I just got off the nerve to take
41:06
the Bible and walk real fast to get that tree man.
41:14
And yeah, man, I needed it. I needed it.
41:19
And, and eventually it got to the point where I just, I just
41:21
stopped hearing, you know what people have to say, you know,
41:25
because I was hurting. I I don't know what anybody else
41:28
was doing, but I I was hurting bad.
41:32
That's interesting how that, you know, we talk about this all the
41:35
time because the show's called nightmare success.
41:37
And they said, well, why, why did you put those two words
41:40
together, Brent? I said, well, it's, it's with us
41:43
all the time because if we're trying to get to what we want,
41:46
we've got to walk through our fears, the things that scare us,
41:48
our nightmares to get to that other side.
41:50
And, and what you just said really demonstrated that, Kevin,
41:54
you, you, you wanted to get to that tree where those people
41:57
were, but you didn't want to have that hassle and getting out
42:00
of your comfort zone of them hassling you.
42:03
And then you just decided, no, that doesn't matter.
42:06
I'm going to do it. That's what I want.
42:12
So how do you start doing time like that?
42:15
How do you start preparing to get out?
42:19
Because you know, a lot of guys that I've talked to that whether
42:25
they've done, you know, 3-4, five years, that's nothing like
42:28
doing 10, you know, 1214 years. What does it feel like when you
42:34
start realizing, Kevin, that you've got, you know, you got a
42:38
year left, you got six months left, you've got three months
42:40
left and you know that you're you're re entering society, that
42:45
you've left so long ago. What?
42:47
What? What goes through your mind?
42:51
Well, for one thing, for me, I definitely was trying to think
42:56
ahead and trying to project. I took as many classes as I as I
43:01
could at that time. They had took it out.
43:04
They had taken out all the Pell Grants.
43:06
You know, I started in college, but then they snatched them.
43:08
I think that was under Bush, George.
43:11
George Bush the first took all the Pell Grants, so we couldn't
43:14
go to school. So I was trying to educate
43:17
myself as much as I could. I was going to the law library.
43:21
I was learning law because I realized that being a paralegal
43:25
with something that you could do when you got out.
43:27
Yeah, which you did by the way, which you'll get into which you
43:31
became very good at that. Yeah, I realized that lawyers
43:36
would hire you, you know, lawyers would hire you to do
43:39
that work if you were. So the first thing I I became
43:44
really skilled at legal writing. My last years in there, I did
43:50
legal research and legal writing.
43:52
I was, I got really good at what I found.
43:59
And I tell people this all the time, people just getting ready
44:01
to come home. In your mind, you can picture
44:06
things about, you know what you're going to do, what you
44:09
want to do and how you're going to do it when you get out.
44:13
But there is no, there is nothing in that you can do in
44:18
prison, nothing you can, from my experience, nothing you can do
44:22
in prison that will prepare you for getting out.
44:25
You can try to prepare yourself, you can hype yourself up.
44:29
You can idealize things and you can do all that and it can be
44:35
some good plans and you can even have people that's there for you
44:38
and that's going to help you. But for me, the first day out
44:43
was like meeting Mike Tyson day one.
44:46
Wow. Right between the eyes.
44:50
On an entire different reality, that first period of the first
44:56
year or two, it's sink or swim. What was it like for you getting
45:01
out after, you know, that, that amount of time?
45:03
What was that? Reentering the world 'cause
45:06
there would have been a lot of things that changed, 'cause
45:09
it's, it's hard, you know, I was in for three years and a lot of
45:13
things had changed. That's nothing like what you, I
45:16
mean, you reenter. And what did you reenter the
45:18
world into, Kevin? Who did you, who'd you live
45:21
with, and where did you go? This is where you started
45:26
talking about the blessings of God because my wife today, you
45:35
know, I would call her my girlfriend while I was doing
45:38
that time, but she would say, Negro, please, I'm just a friend
45:44
here for you to help you. But it's no way I'm waiting on
45:47
you another seven years. So you know, fortunately, you
45:54
know, her name is Tracy. She's a bank manager, good girl,
46:00
you know, good girl, who, you know, I was dating when I was
46:02
out and she did remain a friend all those years and and
46:07
fortunately nobody had had had got her.
46:11
And I think that there were, you know, there were a couple
46:13
proposals that she got, but she did have a lot of love for me.
46:18
I just think she didn't want to admit it.
46:23
So man, she's she's, she's been my savior, my rock it.
46:30
I would have had to go to a homeless shelter.
46:33
Has she not been there? Yeah, no, I, I, I feel, I feel
46:40
what you're saying because the guys that don't have any
46:42
support, that is what happens. And it's, it's a it's a life
46:46
changer if you have somebody that and, and I when, when I was
46:51
reading your profile, Kevin, I thought it the the analogy of it
46:55
takes a village, you know, to raise a kid, but it really does
46:59
take a village to help somebody that's been justice impacted,
47:04
has been in prison to get them into the proper re entry, to
47:08
have opportunities to keep the hope alive, to make to make the
47:13
next step. Because it there's all kinds of
47:14
obstacles And no matter what, and you know, this goes into 300
47:18
prisons. So I never want to sugarcoat
47:20
anything. Getting out is not easy.
47:24
One of the things that we being the guys that have done this
47:27
need to tell those guys is even though it's not easy, you're
47:30
always going to live with the tattoo scarlet letter on your
47:33
head that you're an ex felon. What you've got to learn to do
47:37
is how do you carry that and how you tell your story so that that
47:41
is part of you, but you don't you own it.
47:44
They don't own it. And, and that's what I think's
47:47
really inspiring about your story is, is each and every step
47:51
that you took as you went out, you got hit and, and it wasn't
47:57
easy, but you, you kept gathering around you people that
48:01
were the right people that helped you.
48:03
And then you started doing some like really incredible things to
48:07
talk about your paralegal deal, how you got into that?
48:10
Yeah. So, you know, again, I was
48:13
trying to figure out something. I didn't know what my life was
48:16
going to look like. I remember a devastating
48:18
conversation I had with a cousin one day.
48:21
I called. It was during the holiday and I
48:26
had, our family was there. My, our family was there at
48:29
their house from out of town, out of state, Arkansas, Texas,
48:32
Georgia. And my cousin answered the phone
48:36
and he said to me, he said, he said, Kev, I, you don't have to
48:46
call back. We have family that's here at
48:50
the house and when he said that it it hurt me so bad it hit me.
48:59
It hit me where a heart hurt because the way he said it was
49:02
like I wasn't included in the family.
49:05
Not part of the family. You know what I mean?
49:07
It's not that Hey uncle so and so is here.
49:10
You want to holler at him real quick or you know, it's like we
49:14
got family here at the house so you don't have to call back.
49:18
And I was, I was devastated, you know what I mean?
49:22
So again, for me, I was trying to figure out, I didn't know
49:26
where my life was going to land, where I was going to be, but I,
49:28
I had two things on my mind. I said, I'm going to be in
49:31
somebody's church and I'm going to be working in somebody's law
49:34
office. I, I said if I could, if I could
49:37
accomplish those two things, I know I'll be OK.
49:41
I don't know how it's going to look.
49:43
I don't know where I'll be, but I know it won't be somewhere in
49:47
the streets, committing crimes, putting myself at risk.
49:50
So those are two things, two bottom lines that I had in my
49:54
mind. I, I, I'm, I'm going to be doing
49:56
some paralegal work and I'm going to be in service because I
49:59
needed to assure myself that I wasn't going to mess up no
50:05
matter what. So when I got home again, by
50:10
that time, everything was computerized.
50:14
I often tell the story about how when you know people, you know,
50:19
people were putting these cell phones up to their and I thought
50:21
somebody was getting ready to say, hey, Scotty, beam me up.
50:24
You know, I, I was looking like this is a phone.
50:31
Technology had changed. Everything had changed.
50:35
And I realized that even a paralegal skills that I had
50:40
were, were no good because it was all about computerized legal
50:45
research. So at some point, you know,
50:49
after about a year, year and a half, my wife enrolled me into a
50:54
place called Academy of Court Reporting where they had court
50:58
reporting classes, paralegal classes, and I think Pi classes.
51:04
And I went ahead, I took that course.
51:06
I, it was a two year associate's degree and paralegal studies,
51:12
learned all about how to research on, you know, online
51:17
and through the computer. And once I got, I already had
51:20
the skill set, legal research and legal writing.
51:23
But once I got the computer skills, I immediately started
51:28
working for different attorneys around the city.
51:30
And you know, when, when you find what I found is when I
51:35
worked for different Law Offices, I just made myself
51:37
invaluable. You know, I worked so hard, you
51:41
know, getting briefed. With everybody else.
51:43
Together, you know, when, when a lawyer goes to court and you
51:47
hand them the files and everything's in there, they love
51:50
that you're a hero. So I made myself invaluable, you
51:56
know, and, and that was the big break for me, even though, you
52:00
know, it was kind of hard. I worked for a couple of
52:04
attorneys. One was a lady.
52:08
She was pretty rough. She was pretty rough.
52:12
You know, I don't want to get into, you know, demeaning her or
52:16
what her personal life might have been like.
52:18
But it was like, you can't have a husband.
52:23
So you come here and you got or you kick the dog.
52:27
Don't the dog. But I think she was wondering
52:31
why I had not quit. You know, why?
52:35
Why am I so tough on him? And he hasn't quit and 'cause I
52:42
don't think anybody ever worked for her past three months.
52:45
But I hung in there and I worked.
52:47
I ended up working for her for six years.
52:49
I became invaluable to her. But what he didn't know, I did
52:53
not want to go back to the streets.
52:58
It was my chance. It was my chance.
53:01
And I think that, yeah, I think that's one of the things that,
53:04
and Tony Gant talks about this too, of the that people don't
53:08
know how desperate a person who's been in is looking for a
53:14
real opportunity and how much harder they'll work.
53:17
You know, that a lot of that has to be educated to the employer
53:20
that these people, you know, so many are nonviolent, you know,
53:26
and and and they're just, they're just desperately trying
53:29
to get back into society. If you just give them a shot,
53:34
they'll work around everybody because they there's, they want
53:37
it so bad. That's, that's what you did,
53:42
Kevin. That's what happened.
53:44
That is a absolute fact. Yeah, that's true.
53:48
So the so it advances, you go through years of the paralegal
53:52
thing, but then you get into other work, you get into the
53:56
ministry, start working with the youth kids and and and giving
54:00
them your story and how you do and keeping them.
54:03
Try to keep them out of doing what you did.
54:07
How did how did that happen for you?
54:09
Did you did you because you only have so many hours in the day.
54:13
So, So what? What was going through your mind
54:15
as you were transitioning back and forth and and going and
54:18
growing into the all that? Yeah, For me, I was just, I was
54:24
just really committed, you know, to, to reaching out to you.
54:31
I was committed to making sure that I could contribute to the
54:35
bills and to my life at home. I definitely the work ethic that
54:44
I have, that I have and that I it was unmatched, Unmatched.
54:50
I always say people might have been smarter than me, they may
54:53
have had more connects than me, they may have had a lot more
54:56
than, but nobody will ever outwork me.
54:59
And the other thing is, Kevin, you're a great, great networker.
55:03
You know, each one of these stages also got you into other
55:07
stages. I mean, I, you know, looking at
55:09
your story, your networking got you into politics and then the
55:13
politics, you know, then it brought you back through and,
55:16
and, and now you're a pastor. But it, it's interesting how
55:21
each and every time you stepped, you were connecting and then you
55:24
connected other people to opportunities.
55:26
You know that the, the, the Tony Gant that we've talked about
55:30
when he came out because you knew him on the streets and, and
55:34
he came out after doing 20 years.
55:37
You connected him because you were in the Capitol and you had
55:40
opportunities and you were reaching out and connecting
55:44
people to things that maybe you had a tougher time to walk
55:48
through at that moment. But you knew how important it
55:51
was to give somebody an opportunity, which I'll all of
55:54
that is important. Yeah, it, it absolutely is.
55:58
It absolutely is. I was, you know, the lady that I
56:03
was working with, her name was Leslie Love.
56:05
She was running for office. And it's really hard if you
56:09
don't have a family name or some type of legacy, it's really hard
56:13
to break into politics in Detroit.
56:15
It's really hard. But she kept running.
56:18
But she was falling what I call up the steps.
56:22
And I recognized that there was something brilliant about her.
56:25
So every time she ran, I was right there helping her.
56:29
And eventually, the last time she ran, she won.
56:33
She won. She, she, she won.
56:36
And she took me to Lansing with her as our chief of staff.
56:40
And we, we really learned the ropes together, you know.
56:43
But she was she was she, she was not easy to work for, though She
56:49
made me learn what I needed to learn.
56:52
But Leslie Love, you know, former state Rep.
56:57
I was her chief of staff for five years.
56:59
And then the last year I was with Latonya Garrett, but.
57:04
Did you ever have like impostor syndrome, Kevin?
57:06
I mean, a lot of people talk about that, that, you know, I'm
57:09
doing this, I'm getting this opportunity.
57:11
I'm, I'm, I'm now, I'm chief of staff in this world.
57:14
Am I supposed to be here 'cause I mean, you're, you, you, you
57:19
stepped out of so many things in your journey through life that
57:25
where you are now is pretty remarkable.
57:30
And, and even if you have impostor syndrome, you got to
57:32
deal with it and say, yeah, I'm supposed to be here.
57:34
I I earned it. Well, for me, for me, it was, it
57:38
was a little different because, you know, I would, I really
57:43
dealt with it from a spiritual standpoint.
57:46
And from the spiritual standpoint, you know, you learn
57:49
that if you do right, if you trust God, if you work hard,
57:52
he's going bless you. He's going to open doors for
57:55
you. What I did have to grapple with
57:58
was what is the purpose of all this happening to me?
58:02
What is, what am I supposed to be doing?
58:05
And I remember my early days of, you know, going into the Reps
58:11
office and there's this big, huge picture window.
58:16
And when you look out that window, you're looking at the
58:18
Capitol and you're looking at the, the, the architecture of
58:23
the Supreme Court in the legislative offices in all this
58:27
stuff around. And the only way I could
58:29
describe it, the 10 commandments, if you ever saw
58:38
the Ten Commandments where they were building up this the the
58:43
Hebrews were building the city of Moses was looking out over
58:49
the city. I felt like, I felt like Moses.
58:53
I felt like God. What are you telling me?
58:55
Like? So from that aspect, I was like,
58:59
I'm not one of these folks. I'm, I'm the people that's out
59:03
there, right? Yet I'm sitting here looking at
59:06
the Supreme Court in the what does this mean?
59:09
So I always had a sense of. It was a purpose.
59:14
Yeah, I, I had the sense that at some point I'm going to have to
59:17
leave here and I'm going to have to come back with the message,
59:24
let my people go. I didn't know if how it would
59:29
happen. I didn't know if she would fire
59:30
me. I didn't know if I was going to
59:33
leave and come back as a Rep one day.
59:37
I didn't. I didn't know if I was going to
59:39
leave and come back as an activist one day.
59:41
Yeah. But it turned out it was more I
59:44
leveraged my position as chief of staff with my activism and
59:49
the Let my People go portion was the expansion of expungement
59:55
laws and the the Raise the Age laws and all the criminal
59:58
justice laws and reforms that we did push.
1:00:01
That was kind of my Let my People Go.
1:00:03
Which is huge, Kevin, like what you were talking about earlier
1:00:08
before we got on Michigan is, is such a leader in policy change
1:00:15
in the country for doing things to help the the second chance
1:00:21
justice impact a community, to have an opportunity to have a
1:00:24
place to live, to have a place to get a job.
1:00:28
Because you're you're actually changing statutes and laws for
1:00:31
that to happen. And it's people like you that
1:00:35
are at the table that actually have walked the walk.
1:00:39
And, and to me, that's where change happens is where, where
1:00:42
you actually can listen to somebody that knows it because
1:00:45
that's where they came from. They've experienced it and they
1:00:48
know the reasons and the solutions what could happen.
1:00:51
And that's, that's the, if we could get more of that
1:00:53
happening, that's where I think that's where change happens,
1:00:56
right. Yeah, absolutely.
1:01:01
I have been steeped in the major movements here.
1:01:05
It's kind of been on the unsung level.
1:01:07
I've set everybody else up, you know, but well.
1:01:12
It's kind of like you work with nation outside, you know,
1:01:14
getting that set up and rolling and then and then you rolled
1:01:18
into something else. Absolutely, you know.
1:01:22
A nation outside is all justice impacted people too.
1:01:24
If if anybody wants to look up that organization, it's a great
1:01:27
organization that does incredible things, but all run
1:01:31
and, and, and done through the justice impacted community,
1:01:34
which is very and, and Kevin was a very big part of the start up
1:01:39
of that and he got it rolling. And then as he got it rolling,
1:01:43
he moved into and I'm trying to remember the, the time period
1:01:48
that you took over as pastor of the church 'cause that's been
1:01:53
what, seven years? Yeah, it was all about the same
1:01:56
time. It ran kind of in conjunction.
1:01:59
It ran in kind of conjunction. Tell us about your world with
1:02:02
that. Yeah, You know, it was, it's
1:02:07
been another challenging aspect because, you know, when you talk
1:02:12
about the Baptist Church, the black Baptist Church, the the
1:02:19
church has always been the center of movement and action in
1:02:26
the black community and civil rights and, you know, standing
1:02:30
up for justice and standing up for our people.
1:02:33
But when it came to justice reform, they were really late to
1:02:38
the ball game, really late to the ball game and really slow.
1:02:42
That's why you have so many activists out here, Black Lives
1:02:44
Matter and all these organizations who they're a
1:02:47
whole separate movement from the church.
1:02:51
So when I came to the church, when I was elected as the
1:02:55
church, it was really, really difficult because I am much more
1:03:02
Malcolm than Martin and the church in the elders.
1:03:09
They, they struggle with that. And here I am.
1:03:13
And they were like, oh God, here come another.
1:03:17
He's ready to talk about this prison stuff again.
1:03:19
And oh, can we stop, just stop hearing?
1:03:22
Can we just hear about Jesus and not hear about this reform
1:03:27
stuff? And I'm trying to tell them why
1:03:32
you want to hear about Jesus. Your husband is in prison, your
1:03:36
son is in prison, your nephews are in prison, your daughter's
1:03:40
in prison. Your your everybody's on
1:03:42
probation, right? Yeah.
1:03:45
So I. Dealing with the trauma.
1:03:47
It took a while for me to get our elders to understand this
1:03:51
because what had happened was that the system had made them
1:03:56
ashamed of us, right? And they, because all they
1:04:01
understood is, well, if you would have just follow what the
1:04:04
Bible said, you wouldn't be in this position.
1:04:08
But grandma, you don't understand that they put guns
1:04:11
and drugs and crack and they put all this in our community.
1:04:15
The choices we had to choose from, you didn't have to choose
1:04:19
from those choices. So it, you know, it's taken me a
1:04:22
while to get that message across, but I've hung in there.
1:04:27
I've made it to seven years. And now that they've seen all
1:04:30
the things that's transpired over the transpired over the
1:04:33
last seven years, the laws that have changed, the reform that is
1:04:37
happening, the millions of lives that have been impacted.
1:04:41
Now they kind of get it and they're like, wow, our pastor is
1:04:44
a prophet. So but it was rough.
1:04:48
It was rough. And it's still some challenges,
1:04:50
but they they have a much better understanding that, like I said,
1:04:55
I'm a little, I'm a lot more Malcolm than Ben Martin.
1:04:58
Well, you're a man of challenges.
1:05:00
That's that's the great thing. You know, you, you a lot of
1:05:04
people when they see a challenge, they see it as a
1:05:06
barrier. And you're, you're one of those
1:05:08
guys, Kevin, that all through your life you have continued to
1:05:13
knock them down instead of seeing it as a stop.
1:05:16
And that's a big deal because I think if you continue on and do
1:05:23
what you're doing, it's a big deal.
1:05:26
It changes things. It's the impact is, is
1:05:29
something, not just one person. It changes a lot of things and
1:05:34
it's encouraging. It's encouraging to see people
1:05:36
that really dedicate themselves to that because it takes a lot
1:05:40
of effort. It's not easy and and what
1:05:43
you're doing is not easy, but it's it's, it's impactful.
1:05:47
Yes, yes, I, I appreciate that. I appreciate that.
1:05:51
You know, there's, there's a lot of of great things that's
1:05:54
happened because of this work and we're not done.
1:05:56
No, gosh, work's never done. So much more to do.
1:06:00
I've got to ask you this, Kevin, because I always ask people this
1:06:05
because we've, we've, we've covered the gambit here of your
1:06:08
life. What do you think is your
1:06:12
biggest take away through all this that you've been through
1:06:15
for the listeners out there? For me, my biggest take away is
1:06:22
you. You've got, you know, and I've
1:06:23
got to go spiritual on this. You've got to find out your
1:06:26
purpose like, you know, God had a purpose for Moses, He had a
1:06:32
purpose for Joseph, Abraham, David.
1:06:35
You know, you've got to find out what's your that's the biggest
1:06:39
thing. And when you find that out being
1:06:43
you can really make headway of what you're doing.
1:06:46
I remember when when I was first doing trainings about about
1:06:54
activism and different things like that, because when in those
1:06:58
early days of coming home or even before you came home,
1:07:00
people would say, well, what are you going to do?
1:07:02
When somebody said, well, I'm going to start a nonprofit
1:07:04
organization and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that.
1:07:08
And you have no clue what it's really going to take to do that.
1:07:12
You just think in your mind because this is what you see
1:07:15
people when you hear about people doing.
1:07:17
But what I learned, and I didn't understand it at first, they
1:07:22
said whatever you do, you have to follow your passion, do what
1:07:29
you're passionate about. And I didn't understand why they
1:07:32
were saying that because I just, I'm just want to start a
1:07:35
nonprofit and I'm trying to start a nonprofit in things I'm
1:07:39
not passionate about right? Then what I find out is because
1:07:44
I'm not passionate about it, this is taking too long.
1:07:48
This is too hard. Where's the money?
1:07:50
I can't do it. You throw the towel in.
1:07:53
But when you're passionate about it, you're just going to.
1:07:57
Put in the extra work. You're just going to be and
1:08:00
that's what it was I was passionate about.
1:08:02
So all the foundational work for Nation Outside and you know,
1:08:07
some of the other groups that I've worked with, there was no
1:08:09
money in those early days, but because of the passion, the
1:08:12
passion kept us doing it. And now there's millions of
1:08:16
dollars coming into different organizations because we were
1:08:22
passionate about what we were doing.
1:08:24
I love that it. Was no money, but that's what I
1:08:26
was. That's a huge take away too.
1:08:28
Have your passion, find your passion, find your why, because
1:08:31
that's the thing that's going to keep you rolling and, and, and,
1:08:34
and through your story, Kevin, it keeps you out working
1:08:38
everybody because you know why you're doing it.
1:08:41
And and that's that's a great message for anybody who's
1:08:44
listening. Speaking of people listening out
1:08:47
there, I want to give a shout out to Homestead Financial who
1:08:51
lets me use this podcast room with these fancy equipment.
1:08:56
If anybody's got home mortgage needs, go to Greg Aftiev.
1:08:58
He's your guy. If anybody needs a book out
1:09:01
there, nightmare success, it's on Amazon.
1:09:04
I wrote that one. It's on Barnes and Noble 2.
1:09:10
The don't forget, if you got time, the reviews on Apple,
1:09:14
those things put the show on steroids.
1:09:17
And if you need anything to know about me, it's brentcassidy.com.
1:09:21
That's where the Ty not a DYI spell it wrong.
1:09:25
And as I used to say when I was writing my emails back and
1:09:30
forth, stay strong. I'll do the same.
1:09:33
Kevin Harris, thank you so much for being on today.
1:09:36
You have, you're an inspiring guy And, and, and I know people
1:09:40
got a lot out of this, so I appreciate it.
1:09:43
Oh, man, I, I thank you for the opportunity.
1:09:46
You know, when you're the guy that's doing all the work behind
1:09:49
the scenes, it's good to come out and, and, and, you know, get
1:09:53
a little bit of recognition and attention.
1:09:55
So absolutely, why not? All right, folks, nightmare
1:10:00
success in and out.