Latest / The Failure Gap / A Conversation With Hilary Blair, CEO of ARTiculate: Real & Clear
Transcript
- Julie (00:01.19) Hello and welcome to the Failure Gap where we like to talk with leaders about navigating the space between agreement and alignment. We love talking to people about their journeys and today we're joined by Hilary Blair. Hilary is the CEO and co-founder of Articulate, Real and Clear. She's an energized speaker, facilitator and trainer who capitalizes on her voiceover and her stage training techniques. Hilary, welcome to the Failure Gap podcast. I know that we're... Hilary Blair (00:27.502) Hello, hi hi. Julie (00:30.01) You used to put the drama in, now you like to take the drama out of communication for leaders and teams. So I'm really excited to talk with you about this idea of navigating the failure gap. Before we get into that though, how about if you just give people a little bit of your background and how you came to be the founder and CEO of Articulate. Hilary Blair (00:36.376) Yes. Hilary Blair (00:50.302) I am an actor. I was a very shy little kid and there was a children's theater and I found my home there and the support to share my voice. And I moved through life on and off stage just figuring out how to share who I was and what was going on and jump into other people's stories and come back to my own story. And all that time I was a drama teacher. That was how we were trained in the theater. And then... I went and got my master's degree in acting and then I was in a show called Tomato Plant Girl. And Tomato Plant Girl is a really fantastic three-hander, meaning three characters, bossy best friend, little girl, and Tomato Plant Girl. And I got to be Tomato Plant Girl. When I was at the end of the show in the lobby, shaking little hands, a large body came by, an adult-sized body came by and asked, do you work with business people? And in my head, I am thinking, I am a tomato. And out loud, I said some. And she said, call me when you've worked with more. She tucked her card into my costume. went back to the, I was working at a theater company at that time. And I went back and people were calling. Do you work with business people? Yes, I do. I learned the do's and don'ts, which are a fascinating thing of how you work differently with actors than you do with business people. Five months later, I called her. I said, I've worked with business people. Julie (01:51.007) Hahaha Hilary Blair (02:18.902) I flew to New York and what I consider, I auditioned for her. I went and she tried me out coaching business women on their pitches. So she had a thing for women entrepreneurs and it was called Make Money Million Dollar Business. And so she saw a tomato on stage and thought those skills are needed by business people to share their story. And I passed my audition and I spent the next seven years crisscrossing the US coaching women entrepreneurs on their pitches. and falling in love with business, getting rid of the chip on my shoulder, which, you know, actors and artists have about business people. And I became fascinated by the stories we tell, the voices we share, the ideas that we're sharing. So I went from a drama teacher putting drama in to an undrama, someone taking the drama out, still focused on story and still focused on relationship. And I love that story because that woman, we, many of us know her as the woman who co-founded Take Our Daughters to Work Day. So she was a visionary who was like, yes, that's, that's, she sees things and makes them happen or makes them happen for other people, right? I would still be a drama teacher working with, you know, people of all ages to be actors. And instead I'm working with people of all ages to have them connect, but predominantly in the corporate and business world. Yeah. Julie (03:41.424) Well, I love that she saw the potential of the tomato plant girl and plucked you out of that and got you doing the work that you do because I know how impactful it is for people to really be able to step into this space and take the drama out for their teams and as leaders in their own leadership. So I think that's such a wonderful story. Thank you so much for sharing it. So let's get real for a minute. We all have things where we are in the failure gap. We all, you know, Hilary Blair (03:58.22) Yes. Hilary Blair (04:04.471) Okay. Julie (04:09.488) whether it's simple or big, whatever it might be, we have things where we think that would be a really good idea. I agree, I should do that. But we don't necessarily move ourselves into alignment. Is there anything in your life where you feel like you've been in agreement that it would be a great idea to do something, but you haven't gotten yourself quite aligned to doing it? Or something where you have maybe, and maybe it's the same thing. For a while you were in agreement and then it took you time to get to alignment. Anything that comes to mind for you? Hilary Blair (04:35.948) I think, yeah, one early on from being a performer, which was I really thought that I needed to be a dancer. And I love the idea of being a dancer, but I had to realize I was way more in love with the idea of being a dancer than actually being a dancer. And I'm really just someone who moves well. So we jokingly call, and they sometimes say that we need an actor who moves well. What was interesting for me about that gap is there was just this, the distance between what I thought a dancer was and what I was was. much bigger than I realized. And so I carried that forward going, I'm a dance, I'm a wannabe dancer and I move well. So I move more athletically than dance-wise and I swear I admire that. In my present day, I feel like I connected that a lot around like writing, right? Or that I have so many ideas and the distance between how I speak about things and how I can write about things and my journey with being a writer. highly educated human being, but I so admire people who can take this idea and put it down on paper or on computer or whatever that is. And it makes clear sense. so that's, that may, that's one where I am besides golf. We're just talking about William. We're talking about golf. Julie (05:49.872) Yeah. Let's talk about golf. Let's talk about golf another day, you and me. I just played this morning. You know, what really strikes me about these two examples, and by the way, I was a wannabe singer and my mom one day said, maybe it's better if you're a singer appreciator. Hilary Blair (06:08.846) I'm a dance appreciator. Julie (06:11.004) Yeah, you're a dance appreciator. Yeah, I like that term. like the term. Some of it is it falls in that space of wishful thinking sometimes, right? Like it would be so lovely. And at the same time, we have to figure out like, are we gonna do the hard work? Or are we just gonna think about how nice it would be? And that's fine either way, by the way. You can stay in agreement around something. I think where it becomes a challenge in business is when businesses and leaders get together and they think about, you know, if we were competing better in this space or we were getting into this geography or we were doing things in a different way, that'd be awesome. I hope someone goes and does it. There's this like, I hope someone fixes that for us. And I'm curious, yeah, with the work that you do with leaders, is there a space where you see leaders often kind of lean in and think to themselves or they'll say to you, like, I would love to be this or I think that we should do that. Hilary Blair (06:51.283) Right, Yeah, go do that. Yeah. Julie (07:07.842) and you feel like they just kind of get stuck in that agreement space. Hilary Blair (07:11.648) Yes. Though, yes. I have to say the people by the time I'm working with them, right, they are, even though they're stuck, they're trying to be unstuck. So they're wiggling at least, right? They're not totally stuck. They got the wiggle going. And I think that they're kind in that dance world. That's why that image comes to me. It's like, I want to be a dancer, but do I want to put in the work? Right. And or do I have the right whatever? I don't know. Julie (07:23.888) Yeah. Julie (07:37.606) Right, the skills and the ability and like, yeah, everything that it takes, right? Hilary Blair (07:41.39) Right? And it's a lot of different skills coming together. So where I feel people get stuck is the concept of the idea of what it is to be a communicator and the idea of what the world has said it is to be a communicator. Let's say public speaking. We'll just say that even though you and I know that communicating is so many different areas, but let's say public speaking and presentation. And there's such an idea of it. And then there are these... rules that have somehow been handed down and they're somewhere in our body like we are or aren't supposed to be doing things. And then along with that, this wall of that person's good at it, I might not be or I was working with someone today about that. They're like, that other person's better. I'm like, you're really good. Then we have other people who are not so good who think they're great. And it's so interesting. So for me, Julie (08:30.0) Yeah, the delusion, right? The delusion of greatness. Hilary Blair (08:37.89) That stuck place is being self-aware in a way that allows them to honor what they're good at and challenge them to show up even more and show up in that open, available place. Avoiding the word vulnerable on purpose, as I have a different relationship with the word vulnerable, but they show up available, yeah. Julie (09:02.38) I really appreciate that distinction between being available and being vulnerable because I think that this idea for a leader to show up as available emotionally, mentally, whatever might be available to their people changes the context of what it means to connect and communicate well. So you talk about taking the drama out of communication and that you're being available can do a lot to take the drama out, don't you think? Hilary Blair (09:16.376) Yeah. Hilary Blair (09:28.95) Right. Yes. And I think that the vulnerable tends to be about me and available tends to be about you. Right. Even though I'm choosing what's available, it's but what's a and what's available to connect with you. So yes, yes. Yeah. And words create worlds. Not my quote. Obviously, that's an age old quote. And I think it's an important one because as we talk about leadership, even though even the word leadership, we're going to have all these different ideas around. So leadership. and communication and what it means to connect and what it means to show up in a way that has presence or not. All of these things, I joke, they bring U-Hauls of baggage with them. We have baggage connected to all those, like the U-Haul. We show up with all the baggage that we have around all the terms and the expectations. So, yeah. Julie (10:20.444) Yeah, and I think even things like vulnerability where it's popular right now to say leaders should be vulnerable and I think there is some merit behind that. There are some reasons to push yourself in that direction and it's easy to agree that's a good idea and at the same time it's very difficult to align to because we don't necessarily have a shared understanding of what vulnerability means or looks like as a leader. Hilary Blair (10:33.102) Yes. Julie (10:47.9) And so people have this whole spectrum of it. And I hear you talking about this term being available. I love your distinction that it's about other people, vulnerability is about me and availability is about you and how I show up for you. And that in moving into agreement around what it looks like, or excuse me, into alignment around what it looks like to be available, it feels like there's more room in there. Hilary Blair (11:03.0) Yeah. Julie (11:15.216) there's more room in there as a leader to explore. And maybe it feels like that's an interesting thing to negotiate with my team and to navigate with my team, where vulnerability is something I have to work on myself. Would you agree with that? Hilary Blair (11:16.748) Yeah. Hilary Blair (11:24.995) Yeah. Hilary Blair (11:31.148) That is exactly, and I'm writing down some of the words you say. I'm a processor, so I have to graphically process the words you're saying in a line and share and make room for and the feelings around it. That sense of where we are encouraged to be vulnerable and when you're talking about it being your own work, right? So that's. Julie (11:35.74) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hilary Blair (11:55.838) my work, I need to work on being vulnerable, especially with myself. I, Brene Brown, great, she's fantastic. You know, we all are learning from Brene Brown and she's a big proponent of it. And even Brene Brown thinks that some of her discussions and work around vulnerable have been misunderstood and misapplied, right? So even she's like, wait a minute. So for me, that sense of vulnerable has to be taken very carefully because if I'm working on it with myself, then I'm going to be vulnerable to myself. I'm aware of, I have to be open to me. Available acknowledges that my relationship with all the different people in my workday, my life are quite different. And what I allow and what is correct for me to share and have available is different depending on my audience. So if you have a leader talking with their C-suite group, they will share different things. They will have a different availability than when they are speaking to, I don't know, let's put them walking the floor of a warehouse or a manufacturing or something. There's a different, and it's not bad. It's that we have different, and that's the thing is that that sense of vulnerable, I'm gonna share everything, oddly immediately imbalances things because... And this is, was talking with a male leader about this. He goes, I'm sharing everything. And he mentioned a number of things, including a mental health struggle from 10 years ago. And he goes, I'm vulnerably sharing all of this about me. Madam said, the minute you are in the power structure you're in, it's not an equal sharing. So you discussing, again, a struggle you had 10 years ago is also different than one of your, let's, you many layers down, right? Dealing with it in the moment, either with themselves or someone else. So even though the intent of being vulnerable is to connect, it actually completely exaggerates the disconnect because now it becomes not, it seems safe and it's not necessarily a safe environment. And that idea of creating a safe environment, choosing what's available is much more in tune with the person you're connecting to. Vulnerable is assuming that we have a level playing field. We don't. Hilary Blair (14:18.486) I would love to think we do. There's the world we live in and the world we want to live in. So I believe that vulnerable and available along with walls and boundaries, and boundaries is another way of discussing available. We get to have boundaries. We don't have to share everything. And boundaries are a healthy way for me to decide what part of me I'm bringing to this situation. And I know that's a little controversial because it's bring your, you know, bring your whole self to. Julie (14:44.496) Yeah. Hillary, I always say nobody wants me to bring my whole self to work. You really don't. And I'm okay with that. Yeah. Yeah. Hilary Blair (14:52.202) So available and boundaries allow that. I'm going to make, I don't, I'm realizing I'm like, I don't know about your whole audience. So I'm kind of editing in my head, which you can see on my face. I, there are things that as two women on a podcast right now, we would talk about if no one else were listening. And that if we were being vulnerable, right? I don't know how, what's happening with our bodies. Let's just say that. Let's just allude to that in that way. Right. And you and I would be like, I know. Julie (15:16.294) Yeah. Hilary Blair (15:19.631) And the minute we have an audience, if it's an audience predominantly of women, we might still decide, okay, that's a vulnerable thing I'm going to share. I'm going to suggest available. The minute we know we have cross age, cross gender, all kinds of things going on, we decide what's available in not in a way of hiding, in a way of what's correct to be available for that relationship in that group. And I'm not saying that talking about women's things, I'm worried about offending anyone. It's more that it's an example of that we shift what we talk about and that what's available depending on our audience. And that idea when I said leaders with their C-suite may speak differently than they do when they go to the manufacturing floor, that concept of that allowing respect to thread through that and what it means to connect. and understanding that the power dynamic of the world has a huge impact on how we show up and how we connect and what we decide is available. Julie (16:26.534) You know, what's really coming up for me in this conversation, Hillary, and I love the way that you're putting it, is that in our vernacular at Kerikin's group, a lot about alignment is creating that shared meaning. It's taking the time to understand what do these big words mean? So when we say, it would be a really good idea if leaders were more vulnerable. All right, what does that mean and how does that look? And what is that, how do you really understand that within the very real power structures of the organization? Hilary Blair (16:38.508) Great. Excellent. Julie (16:55.962) And I think what you're saying is that potentially a more accessible term to negotiate is this idea of availability. still needs to be, shared meaning still needs to be created around what does it look like to have that spirit of availability in your leadership. But to move from agreement to alignment as a leadership team around this construct of availability, it's a different shape, it's a different thing than vulnerability. Hilary Blair (17:08.44) Yeah. Hilary Blair (17:15.308) Yeah. Julie (17:25.788) but it may be more something that feels more achievable for your leadership team and it may have a better impact on your colleagues, your clients, whoever it might be that you're talking to. Hilary Blair (17:26.254) Right? Hilary Blair (17:36.046) Yeah. I love that alignment idea and what it means. I love that. And how does it play out, right? I immediately went to, that will play out differently if we align what it means. And you said power structure. I think sometimes we don't, we may avoid, I'm avoiding, I'm avoiding, I'm trying to find the right word. So here we go. So that idea of power structure, so power versus status. And there are other ways to talk about that. We play with power. and status because of being raised in the theater, we're always talking about power and status in roles and who has the power in the room and when does the status shift and what's moving and bringing that sensibility into the workplace. You're asking, I love that alignment on meaning so that we are honoring the power structure in the room and the status that is flexing, right? So power we say is the static element. that comes at societal elements and that status is where we give the focus, know, different ways of describing that. And I love that it brings this sense of, it allows that focus to shift in a way that has more equitability, more equal access. It's cool. I love that. Yeah. A lot. Julie (18:51.504) Yeah, and I think when we shift back to where we started this conversation, you remember where we started this conversation? I think it was with the tomato girl, I don't know. Yeah, tomato play girl. Yeah, yeah. But I do think where we launched into this idea was around you talking about people wanting to be better communicators and that you have an idea that communication or being a better speaker or communicator is actually. Hilary Blair (18:56.75) Thank you. We were trying to dance. I don't know we're dancing. yeah, you go. Tomatoes. Hilary Blair (19:13.218) Yeah, yes. Julie (19:20.092) It's actually about something else. There's more to it than just how do you form the words and say these words, right? How do you hold presence and how do you be in the space as effectively as possible? And so I feel like in my world, I oftentimes hear people say, I think I should be a better public speaker or I think I should be better at communicating. And they fully agree with that, but they either don't know how or they don't really understand the work it takes to. Hilary Blair (19:28.834) Thank Hilary Blair (19:37.311) Right. Hilary Blair (19:46.734) to get to the skill. Julie (19:47.376) get those tactical skills and they look at it as skill acquisition, where I think you might encourage them if they want to align to this idea of being better at communicating, there's more to it than just learning some techniques and skills. Can you talk a little bit about what you think it takes to really align to this idea as a leader of being a better communicator? Hilary Blair (19:52.795) Yeah. Hilary Blair (20:03.587) Yeah. Hilary Blair (20:13.196) It's really clear for me in hearing you say that you have this, you're lifting up this concept and allowing it to grow, which I love, which is if I want to be this speaker, I want to connect with people. It has to be bigger. So even just while you're talking, it was like growing in my mind. And the concept where I feel like the fuel is injected and it just takes off is when you realize the communication is about the other person and not yourself. So when people first come to us, it feels like they're asking to be fixed. Fix me. I want to be a better public speaker that will, I haven't been speaking to a woman today. I'm like, you're an amazing leader. So that's your role. You're amazing at what you do. You have great things. The public speaking is a skill that allows you to share that instead of a skill, because it was like the public speaking skill was felt to be just so low and not good and undermining everything. And when we simply see that it is a tool, a skill that is around a tool in order to connect, everything to do with public speaking and presentation has to be about the other person and everything is about them. So it takes the focus off. How am I communicating in a way that shares my content, my idea, my opinion in a way that you can hear it. So even I'm to go real tactical here. So I I'm in a box, right? Cause I'm on virtual. So I do have to be aware tactically to not like go off the camera, right? To stay in the box, right? If I'm thinking about me in the box and I fix my hair and do all the things that we do, then I become about me. If I think, can she see me? Am I seeing her? Am I here in order to be connecting? It's a tiny adjustment that shifts dramatically from all about me to all about us. So when we think about communication being about relationship, then we get curious, then we listen more effectively, then we are more open and connected because then I'm not worried about this. I'm like, wait a minute, what's she saying there? Am I connected? Am I seeing her? It's about us, not me. And that is so freaking hard. Julie (22:36.252) It's easy to agree to and hard to lie to. But to me, what you're describing is what we would call a mindset shift, right? So one of the first things you need to do to move from agreement to alignment around anything is a mindset shift. And so how do you move from, I just need tactical skills to I need to shift how I show up for the audience, whether it's one other person or 3000 other people, whatever that looks like. What's the... Hilary Blair (22:43.702) Yeah, yeah. Yes. Hilary Blair (22:49.676) Yes. Yeah. Julie (23:05.136) Mindset that I have to come into that with and it's not do I have the skills? But it's do I have the intention to? Connect with that person and to be available to go back to your earlier term in a way that Creates this dynamic between us where great things can happen Hilary Blair (23:11.384) Yeah. Hilary Blair (23:22.722) Yeah, I'm gonna share and then people will start listening to me differently or they've already thought this. So I am a fast speaker, not shocking anyone who's listening. And I'm a fast speaker, I have fast articulators. Some people run fast, I have fast articulators, which is part of the reason that I can put a lot of content into a small space for voiceovers. So I do a lot of voiceovers. And that concept of speaking quickly early on, I remember a woman saying to me in a workshop, and I've been teaching for decades, I have been doing this a long time and I get more enthusiastic instead of less, I have to say. And she said to me, you speak really quickly. go, I know, I'm working on it. And she said, you just don't care if I get it. And I was like, my gosh. my gosh. It was, it was incredibly like wounding. that like, was like unbelievable to me. Right. And I think that sense of who I am and how I'm connecting had never been about the other person before. Like I was like the only thing that matters to me is how I'm connecting with someone else. So. Julie (24:12.644) no. Hilary Blair (24:41.902) Yeah, and that everything. Julie (24:42.756) It sounds like part of that mindset shift might have been from, know I'm really good at articulating quickly and so I'm allowed to speak fast, into other people might still struggle, no matter how good I think I am, I still have to think about what it's like to try to process all of that as a listener. Is that a fair reflection of what you said? Hilary Blair (24:52.237) Yeah. Hilary Blair (25:03.284) That would have been a great process. I think I was not as sophisticated as you are. was like, I like that though. I'm gonna adopt that. I like that. I think where my mind went was very much into the space of... Julie (25:11.452) Hahaha Hilary Blair (25:17.683) all I care, I'm failing. So I think I went into failing. So the mindset. Julie (25:20.572) Hmm. Hilary Blair (25:26.07) I'm going do Etch A Sketch. fail, so I'm going to start again. Here we go. So the where I went, I love yours is much more tactical that would drive me forward. Mine went dropped into my body. I said, I'm failing. The only thing I care about is that I help you connect better. I was with a whole group of people. She's letting me know that what's landing is it seems like all I care about are my ideas. So when it had me shift, this is going to come bring together two concepts. I think that we've been talking about, it made me realize there have to be skills and tools that help me use my voice in a way that connects better and more effectively, even though I'm trained as an actor, even though I'm trained as a teacher, all of those, and a voiceover person, right? That I needed to find those tools and then be aware of how they connect. So I love your idea of like, that I'm, how are people able to process it, right? And what I realized, tactically was that there are different ways of different sounds of sharing me and I was actually tossing ideas at someone instead of being in dialogue. So I actually wasn't in dialogue, I was in monologue. And in monologue I was just... And she was saying, I'm here. Julie (26:41.436) You know, yeah, she called you on it, Yeah. Yeah. Hilary Blair (26:46.05) She totally did, and I don't think she meant it to land as the way that it landed for me, but it did. And then I realized, so what it gets back to the idea of when I work with people on tools, so now I'm very aware of vowels and I'm very aware of micro pauses. So vowels and micro pauses are the way that we're able to connect more effectively with people because of the thought chunks that we connect with. when I know that I have those tools and I'm using that tool to be in relationship, to be in dialogue with you versus in my head, it's also connecting with my whole body and not just being in my head and tossing ideas at you. Julie (27:27.376) That I think is so powerful and I hope that people listening are just thinking about it for themselves and how they might sometimes show up. And I'll go back to the framing of agreement to alignment, not to stay obsessed with it. But I think we all agree that we would love to brainstorm with our colleagues or have the opportunity to collaborate in different ways. And yet we show up in the space and we throw ideas at people instead of constructing ideas with people. Hilary Blair (27:38.86) Yeah. Yeah. Julie (27:57.946) And I think if you want to move into alignment around these ideas, ideals of collaboration or ideation or innovation, then that's a really powerful mindset shift to adopt. It's not about throwing ideas at people, but creating them with people. And I think that fundamentally changes the dynamic. It changes the space that you've created to be able to engage with colleagues. Hilary Blair (28:01.27) Yes. Hilary Blair (28:21.869) Yeah. Julie (28:26.294) in a really productive and generative way. And so I love that you're tapping into that, the power that our intention has to shape the space that we're in when we're in dialogue with another person. Hilary Blair (28:41.302) You bring me right to this world that we share, right? This is why the ideas of working with teams and individuals, that sense of coming to a collaborative space, a co-creative space. I have realized that with the communication and the presence work that we've done and it has, we've... been coaching people and doing deep dives on how do we connect? How do you be show up? How do you be present as a leader? How do you actually be available so that you're in a dialogue with someone and bravely and availability? I don't think that's a word, but you know what I mean? Showing up for other people, which has brought me to the land for what we're doing because of a client that we are in the land of friction, of fruitful friction. So for you and I, the work that we're doing, that sense that when we are available to each other, we can have friction which brings traction, which moves ideas forward. And the world today is avoiding or attacking, right? And that's where people go. And you live, Carrick and Group, you live in the land of inviting people into that place of alignment and shared meaning. And we are all about What are the tools? What are the, how do I use me? We call it the EKG of our conversation rhythm. How do we find that to be present? How do I show up to find shared meaning? How do I do that? And that being comfortable with friction, having fruitful friction creates traction to keep us on the road. Or as we jokingly say, friction creates pearls, right? Or dust, depending how you're using it. Yes, yes. Julie (30:28.048) Yeah, and I love that. Hilary Blair (30:29.814) And we're losing the ability to, we're going to nice. And dare I say, I'm about, I don't know, you use words so well, so help me out here. I feel there's a huge difference between people being asked to be civil and people asked to be engaged in civil discourse. I feel like civil tends to be a fancier word for polite. And civil discourse. Julie (30:55.74) I would agree with that. Hilary Blair (30:57.96) is the invitation to be in dialogue and relationship. Friction, fruitful friction. Julie (31:03.504) I think that's a really nice way to describe that. Hillary, and I really like your term of fruitful friction, right? How do we have friction that bears fruit for us in the problem solving space or the innovation space or the opportunity space as colleagues, as we move forward, instead of either being too nice and polite and not actually speaking our truth or being abrasive and rude and shutting down the conversation by, you know, the... Hilary Blair (31:24.674) Yes. Julie (31:31.974) the negative energy that we bring in. So this idea of finding that dynamic of fruitful friction, I think is a way of getting to better outcomes for businesses. And I think that the concept of civil discourse is a great way to think about. Hilary Blair (31:43.949) Yes. Hilary Blair (31:49.076) And I think that the concept of psychological safety, of creating a safer space, we need those elements because right now it feels safer to go behind a wall and say, everything's okay. I'm fine. We're appeasing or avoiding, right? Lots of A's here, right? Or we go behind the other wall. And even though people don't like conflict, I really feel that when you put up a wall and lob things over it, Attack from that way. then you are feeling safer as well, right? That staying what we call the messy middle, staying in that messy middle together to figure out what do you mean by that word? that's not how I've used that word. I totally didn't mean that. That's a different thing. How can we align on that? How can we be here? How can we, and I'm not going to go to agree to disagree because I feel like that can be an appeasing thing. think it can, right? It's like, it's a way of going, yeah, I agree to disagree. No, we didn't actually, we just stopped communicating. Julie (32:41.638) That's a cop out, right? That's a cop out. Hilary Blair (32:48.662) like boom. And I somehow we have given up, lost, I don't know, I sometimes joke that it's the loss of small town communities because in small towns you had to hang out with all the people and even if you didn't agree with and had the different values and things you still had to hang out in the same space. But now I lived in New York City for a time and I could hang out with people who were identical to me and my thoughts, right? It's like I could isolate that. And now we're inviting in the workplace diversity of thought, diversity of people, we want that. We know intellectually that if I bring a diverse group of people together, we're going to have a stronger outcome. And yet then we don't equip anybody with the tools to stay in that conversation to get to the stronger outcome, the more creative place to elevate each other and move somewhere else. We put them there and then we shut everybody down. And we say, we got to figure out What's the best way to cog in a wheel, make sure that there's, we try to smooth things over. We get rid of the friction, like smooth it over, which means you just go off course. Julie (34:00.112) I think people are not adept always at navigating those spaces. And I wonder what your thinking is as you take the drama out, right? That's one of the things that you do is help teams to navigate that messy middle. How do you navigate, know, co-constructing the rules of the road for this team when it comes to communication? I think one of the things that I've observed is people agree to the idea of diversity of thought in particular in a work. Hilary Blair (34:03.308) Yes. Hilary Blair (34:08.268) Right. Yeah. Yeah. Hilary Blair (34:19.075) Yeah. Julie (34:29.244) place or on a team. And yet there then maybe people just don't know how to do it. But I believe that you still need to have within that environment, social norms and expectations. And typically the dominant social paradigm takes the lead on establishing those norms. What does it look like to disagree? What does it look like to communicate across the status structures or across the power structures? Hilary Blair (34:42.007) Yes. Hilary Blair (34:50.529) Absolutely. Julie (34:57.968) What does it look like to bring a new idea in or to receive feedback on positive or negative? So there still has to be an accommodation from people who maybe are bringing diverse backgrounds or thinking to adhere to the social norms of the team. Otherwise the team cannot function. And that it just feels like there's something that hasn't really been Hilary Blair (35:13.795) Yeah. Julie (35:26.812) solved at scale, let's say in business, around that space when it comes to this idea of yes, it's a good idea to have diversity of thought in our organization. What's been your experience with that? Hilary Blair (35:40.77) just, my gosh, there's so many things in there. That was fantastic. Yes, the dominant paradigm is huge. I think that efficiency rules everything. And so we want diversity and we want diversity of level. We need to finish this and we need to figure out what our efficient processes are to move that forward. Right. So it doesn't allow for that messiness. I think a classic example of the dominant paradigm leads the the rule setting, right? If we have a group culture, if we set at the beginning, these are rules are going to be in this space. A classic one that was good for me coming in the packaging that I'm in for those listening, right? I'm a white woman, right? And for me to understand what it meant when I first heard, so bear with me folks, cause you're gonna see me go on a journey here. So I was like, yeah, why wouldn't we all wanna calm down and have a conversation? Now I've learned, right? How that is just a really horrifically frightening term that is a dominant paradigm that how we all show up in different ways that if we tell people to calm down, it doesn't even work with five-year-olds. Why do we think it's gonna work with you? Right? And it was such an eye-opening experience for me to realize how non-open-minded it was. How not... I like, why wouldn't we all? Like, because we all show up different and we present differently. And culturally, experience-wise, there's a power dynamic happening. And I was like that it was such a fabulous like mind blowing experience for me to understand that the term calm down or not even calm down, but the idea of coming to something calmly already disavows and devalues the diversity in the space. So if we're, I just thought that was like, this is so awesome. So how do we deal that? How do we deal with that friction? How do we come together and truly hear? the different voices in a space and making sure that we're creating something that works for each person and not only in the moment, but in the moment to come because we're evolving and we need different things in the moment to come. So the other thing I've noticed that happens with groups is they establish a group culture and then it doesn't shift and grow with a group that's already moved to a new place. So how do we create Hilary Blair (38:04.308) a space with alignment, with shared meaning, with the friction and that messiness where we create it safe enough. Can't create a safe space, can only create a safer space and that already means we're leaving room for failure. We're only creating it safer, right? If we're creating that space, how do we with a dominant culture in any or dominant paradigm in any space make sure that the under heard, understood, whatever that word is that would create that, is being heard and lifted up and part of the co-creation in the space. That is essential for teams to succeed, for companies to succeed. And it is the trickiest thing because time and efficiency blows everything out, taking too long. That's not going to happen. We know that on the other end, it will totally be more efficient. We will create a culture that actually allows us all to show up with all of our pokiness and sharp edges and odd things so that we are co-creating together. And I feel that too often we allow it and go, too, it's taking too long, we shut it down. So, yeah. Julie (39:22.908) One of the things that we talk about is group dynamics and making the invisible visible. Taking the time to notice and name those dynamics when they happen and be able to have the language to speak about them in a different way so that you can interrupt the patterns. So we talk about pattern interruption, So moving into alignment often means interrupting patterns, especially on a team. Hilary Blair (39:44.323) Right. Julie (39:50.734) so that you can just nudge in a different direction. And so we've talked a little bit about mindset shifts. I think now we're talking about group dynamic shifts and how the group as a whole needs to, if you want a whole group to align to something like a new strategy or a new way of working or new goals or aspirations, whatever it might be, then you do have to find the space to identify and name the group dynamics that maybe are fueling efficiency, but are holding back the whole team from contributing and being able to be aligned to the shared goals. Hilary Blair (40:29.484) And that system energy, right? There are some discussions of teams as systems and letting the system speak. And how do we make sure that we create the activities, the dialogues that allow the system to speak? And there are many formats and formulas and things to allow that to come to the surface if we're allowing ourselves to be aware of it. You mentioned that the patterns show up in disrupting the patterns. There's a habit connection to that, right? And there's a sense of, so I love, because you go group dynamic, right? And I go so like, how's the individual in there, right? And so that sense of, create habits to succeed, not sabotage myself. That's one of our, our classic tenants is sort of first have grace for ourselves and others. But that sense of mostly for ourselves, right? It's like, I have a habit. It's no longer serving me. Am I brave enough and aware enough to figure out, to put it in the tool chest, not get rid of it? Because that's a lot of what we do with habits is we slam ourselves. that's a bad habit. No, it's a habit that no longer serves us. It's a very different attitude. So if patterns are showing up, the patterns in a group are showing up because they served. They didn't show up because they were of no service. They worked at one moment. So if we're now looking at patterns and going, is that pattern serving us any longer? Or is it only serving a few people in the group. How do we make sure that we adopt and adapt to and adopt new patterns for a new group? And I think that systems idea is super important. And we have to, we also, I just think there's a lot of self-awareness around my voice, the words I choose, words create worlds, the sense of my non-verbals. I mean, I'm driving some people crazy just by the way I'm communicating here, I'm sure, right? And the ideas of what's right and what can work. And then that sense of am I connecting with my head, my heart, my instinct, right? And then what's guiding me? And that heightened, powerful self-awareness. And I quote this all the time. When I worked with a leader who said, I'm self-aware enough to know I'm not self-aware. Hilary Blair (42:44.29) He was the most amazing leader that I have run into, right? And that's wisdom. Julie (42:50.62) Yeah, I love that idea that you can tap into that if you're willing. And I would suggest to go back to that leader who you just quoted, that was a moment of vulnerability in the most appropriate way to be able to self-reflect and say, I know I need to be better in this space. And it is about the I there. And at the same time, part of how you turn the corner on that is by becoming more available as a leader. Hilary Blair (43:02.413) Right? Hilary Blair (43:09.602) Right? Hilary Blair (43:16.834) Yeah. Yeah. Julie (43:17.232) and more dialed into that. So I love the intersection of those concepts in that example, because they aren't, it's not one or the other, you have to do a little bit of work in both of those spaces of availability and vulnerability, but be really conscientious about the distinction I think is very helpful for people. Especially as you work to move from agreement that things are a good idea to into alignment. Although I suspect Hillary that all of the self-awareness and mindset shifts and group dynamics and everything else that we're talking about, Hilary Blair (43:26.956) Right. Julie (43:46.628) I don't know that any of them would necessarily have helped you become a dancer, but I don't know. I'm just speculating based on how you've described it that that might be one of those things that stayed in the wishful thinking bucket. And look, I'm offered that level of self-awareness, right? To be able to say, yeah, that's a nice idea, but it's really just not gonna happen. And so I need to focus on something else. And I think that is also something as we kind of rounded this conversation out for listeners to be thinking about that sometimes it is worth you know, having that moment to say, nice idea and I don't see myself doing the work that it's going to take to get there. And so I'm going to put my energy and put my focus on something else. And Hillary, by you putting your energy and your focus on something else, you were brilliant as the tornado plant girl or whatever that was. You got plucked out of that moment and into the opportunity to bring the incredible skills of things like voiceover and stage presence, stage techniques. Hilary Blair (44:33.422) Yes! Julie (44:44.888) into the business world in such an incredibly effective way through Articulate. So I just think that's such an amazing journey and you've shared with us some great insights about what it takes to get yourself and your team into alignment around how do we move forward together. If you were gonna give our listeners just, know, top two, three, four things to be paying attention to or to think about, what would those be? Hilary Blair (45:10.408) I always, for myself and for others, suggest the most obvious one that people are surprised by, which is that I would ask you to be aware of your breath. Because we hold our breath a lot. And when we hold our breath, we don't get oxygen into our bloodstream to go to our brain to fuel our brain. So the concept of how, like I lose my thoughts, I got nervous, I lost my thoughts, is... far more physiological than metaphorical and I use that so often. So that's one of them. And the other is to be really aware of how often something that someone else does puts up an invisible wall between us and the other person. And how do we lower that? To be in the delightfully awkward space of relationship and move forward to be able to do the work, align, meaning. Julie (46:03.408) I love that. And I think I would add on to those two your comment around remembering that words create worlds. And that's part of that raising that barrier or lowering it. I think when we are tuned into the power of that, then we can really start to work with another person to align and deliver together, which is a really wonderful space to be in. Hillary, this has been such a great conversation. I really do appreciate it. Hilary Blair (46:06.445) Yeah. Hilary Blair (46:11.618) Yeah, right? Hilary Blair (46:16.354) Yes. Hilary Blair (46:29.688) So, I'm. Julie (46:32.464) I have one final question for you. Okay, if you could have your inner circle or your colleagues or any group of people maybe that you work with on a regular basis, if there was something that you could get them aligned to deliver on together, what would it be? It can be something small, something big, something fun, something serious, but what would you like to get people aligned to do together with you? Hilary Blair (46:57.464) No, I want a brigade of folks helping people to stay in the messy middle with friction because that's what artists do to create. And I feel like the future of us as human beings and community and culture is that we have to be able to be in dialogue and communication to honor our differences. We have to be able to be in the space. And we need friction, fruitful friction. I really feel. Julie (47:23.612) Aligned to fruitful fiction folks. it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hilary Blair (47:26.476) Totally, feel really strongly about it. I really do. I'm like, that's where the art is. That's where the art is, is in the fruitful. Julie (47:33.338) I love that. And you know what, if even just a handful of our listeners could go out and lean into that idea of fruitful friction, I think it could change the world. So Hillary, thank you so much for taking the time to be here on the Failure Gap podcast. This has been a fantastic conversation. I love all of the ideas that you've been sharing about those mindset shifts, how you can start to change the group dynamics as well that people are bringing in. I think respecting the fact that habits have a place and they work really well. Hilary Blair (47:42.904) Yes. Julie (48:01.242) And sometimes we need to do the hard work to change them in order to keep up with whatever's happening around us in our organization. They might have served us well in the past, they don't always serve us well going forward. And the more that we can all remember as well that our words do create our worlds, I think that we can make our teams, our organizations, and our environments better for everyone. So thank you again, I appreciate having you here, and I hope you have a great rest of your day. Hilary Blair (48:27.502) Thank you. That's awesome. Thank you so much.