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Murder In Moscow: The Balancing Act Between The Victims Families Rights And Kohbergers · Beyond The Horizon

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  Speaker 1: One and welcome back to the program. When it comes
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  Speaker 1: to transparency from the court, I am usually in favor
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  Speaker 1: of the Court's being as transparent as possible. Why well,
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  Speaker 1: I don't really trust the government to always do the
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  Speaker 1: right thing when you take a look at the way
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  Speaker 1: people have been railroaded throughout history. It's always a good
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  Speaker 1: idea for the public to have access to what's going
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  Speaker 1: on inside of a courtroom. However, there has to be
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  Speaker 1: a limit to that right. You can't just have access
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  Speaker 1: to every bit of information as the public, especially if
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  Speaker 1: it's going to destroy the integrity of the case or
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  Speaker 1: of the trial. So there has to be that fine
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  Speaker 1: line that is walked by the government when they're navigating
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  Speaker 1: issues such as these. And for Judge Marshall to issue
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  Speaker 1: the second gag order, the sweeping gag order, she might
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  Speaker 1: run into some trouble with that one. And there are
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  Speaker 1: some legal professors that we're going to hear from in
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  Speaker 1: this article who are talking about that very thing and
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  Speaker 1: how it might be an issue for Judge Marshall considering
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  Speaker 1: that the media organizations have now come together and they're
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  Speaker 1: trying to get that restrictive gag order knocked back a
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  Speaker 1: bit so it's going to be interesting to see how
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  Speaker 1: it all plays out and who ends up winning this
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  Speaker 1: tug of war. Today we have an article from Insider
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  Speaker 1: headline A new gag order in the Idaho murders case
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  Speaker 1: effectively silences the victims' families, and as the court or
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  Speaker 1: the prosecution, the last thing you ever want to do
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  Speaker 1: is to be seen as silencing the families. The family
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  Speaker 1: should have, you know, the ability to talk about pretty
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  Speaker 1: much whatever they want, as long as they're not, you know,
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  Speaker 1: attacking the integrity of the case, and as long as officials, prosecutors, lawyers, clerks,
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  Speaker 1: anyone involved doesn't give the family any information they shouldn't have,
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  Speaker 1: then it shouldn't be a problem. So when you have
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  Speaker 1: one of these large en scope orders like the gag
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  Speaker 1: order we see now, it's going to cause a bit
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  Speaker 1: of friction, There's no doubt about it. This article was
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  Speaker 1: authored by Michelle Mark and haven A Rechio A Gritz.
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  Speaker 1: The Idaho judge overseeing the case against Brian Koberger, the
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  Speaker 1: suspect accused of fatally stabbing for University of Idaho's students
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  Speaker 1: last year, expanded or gag order on Wednesday forbidding attorneys
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  Speaker 1: representing victims, victims, families and witnesses from speaking publicly about
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  Speaker 1: the case. So they can't speak about, you know, what's
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  Speaker 1: going on in the case as far as if they
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  Speaker 1: think he's guilty, if they think he's innocent, stuff like that.
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  Speaker 1: But they can talk about the memories of their loved
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  Speaker 1: ones if they want, you know, Kaylee, l x X
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  Speaker 1: and x Ethan was really having fun doing you know,
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  Speaker 1: this activity. That sort of thing will be fine under
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  Speaker 1: this gag order, but they can't come out and lam
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  Speaker 1: based Brian Koberger or go after the actual case itself,
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  Speaker 1: because that's part of this sweeping gag order. And that's
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  Speaker 1: why there's people that have issues with this sort of
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  Speaker 1: thing as far as it's stepping on the First Amendment.
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  Speaker 1: At what point do we say as a society that
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  Speaker 1: a judge has that much power. Now, of course, this
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  Speaker 1: is a unique situation, and I think that a gag
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  Speaker 1: order of some sort is probably a good way to
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  Speaker 1: go here. But this overreaching gag order that we see here,
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  Speaker 1: the second one, the amended one, I think it's a
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  Speaker 1: bit of an overreach honestly by the court. And I
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  Speaker 1: think that with this challenge we might see some alterations
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  Speaker 1: to the amended order and get another amended order that
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  Speaker 1: will reduce the scope of what the gag order can be. Remember,
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  Speaker 1: the Supreme Court is said that a gag order has
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  Speaker 1: to be the least restrictive pathway that they can possibly
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  Speaker 1: come up with, and this doesn't seem like it's the
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  Speaker 1: least restrictive pathway to me. Coburger, twenty eight, faces for
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  Speaker 1: four first degree murder charges in the deaths of Kailee Gonsalves,
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  Speaker 1: Madison Mogen, Zana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin. Attorneys for the
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  Speaker 1: student's families have been outspoken about the case, responding to
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  Speaker 1: media inquiries, issuing statements, and even weighing in on major
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  Speaker 1: developments like Coburger's arrest and the release of police documents. Well,
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  Speaker 1: I wouldn't say all of them have been outspoken, but
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  Speaker 1: the Gonzalbs family for sure, and certainly Shannon Gray, their
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  Speaker 1: lawyer who was holding the police's feet to the fire.
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  Speaker 1: So definitely they've been outspoken. But I wouldn't say that
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  Speaker 1: the other families, especially the Chapin family. We haven't heard
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  Speaker 1: anything really from them, So I think it would be
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  Speaker 1: more accurate to say that the Gonsalvez family's lawyer, Shannon Gray,
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  Speaker 1: because he has been the one who has been the
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  Speaker 1: most outspoken. But Judge Megan Marshall's newly amended gag order
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  Speaker 1: bars any attorney representing a witness, victim, or victim's family
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  Speaker 1: from making any comments about the case that go beyond
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  Speaker 1: quoting or referring to official public records. The order had
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  Speaker 1: previously only applied to prosecutors and Coburger's defense attorney. The
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  Speaker 1: attorneys are now not even permitted to speak publicly about
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  Speaker 1: the character of the victims. So that's a little crazy, right,
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  Speaker 1: The attorneys can't even speak about the character of the victims.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, that's a little bit too much in my opinion. Look,
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  Speaker 1: you have to find that fine line, and I'm certainly
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  Speaker 1: not qualified to sit in that courtroom and figure it out.
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  Speaker 1: But there has to be a less restrictive way where
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  Speaker 1: we can maintain the integrity of the trial, maintain Brian
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  Speaker 1: Kohberger's rights as the accused person here, and also at
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  Speaker 1: the same time maintaining a very very important aspect of
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  Speaker 1: all of this, which is the First Amendment. So it's
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  Speaker 1: up to Judge Marshall to tow that line. And with
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  Speaker 1: this new gag order, I don't really think she's doing
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  Speaker 1: a good job of that at least right here. Though
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  Speaker 1: the order does not explicitly bar a victim or a
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  Speaker 1: victim's relative from speaking publicly about the case, some relatives
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  Speaker 1: of the victims have relied on their attorneys as spokespeople,
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  Speaker 1: using them to navigate the media frenzy on their behalves.
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  Speaker 1: So in other words, once again, they're inferring to the
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  Speaker 1: Gonzalvez family and Shannon Gray because he's the only lawyer
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  Speaker 1: for any of the victims that has been front and center.
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  Speaker 1: So they're definitely talking about Shannon Gray. But I will
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  Speaker 1: tell you this, if you think mister Gonsalves is going
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  Speaker 1: to need somebody to speak for him, I highly doubt it.
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  Speaker 1: And if mister Shannon Gray can't speak for the family,
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  Speaker 1: you better damn well believe that mister Gonsalves is going
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  Speaker 1: to continue talking about his daughter. At least from what
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  Speaker 1: we have seen so far, he doesn't strike me as
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  Speaker 1: the kind of guy that's not going to talk about
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  Speaker 1: his daughter. Experts told Insider that judges across the country
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  Speaker 1: have been increasingly liberal with issuing gag orders in criminal cases.
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  Speaker 1: A practice some argue undermines attorney's freedom of speech and
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  Speaker 1: shields the criminal justice system from public scrutiny. And that's
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  Speaker 1: something we all have to be aware of. Right, trust
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  Speaker 1: but verify. I don't know about you, but I don't
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  Speaker 1: sit here and just trust the government to do the
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  Speaker 1: right thing. The government's made up of people, and people,
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  Speaker 1: unfortunately are untrustworthy sometimes, and that goes for people in
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  Speaker 1: the government, judges, whatever. So it's very important that light
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  Speaker 1: is shined on all of these cases and that the
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  Speaker 1: public has the ability to have a peak at what's
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  Speaker 1: going on. You want to make sure people aren't getting railroaded, right,
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  Speaker 1: You want to make sure that the process is going
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  Speaker 1: the right direction, and especially in these small little towns.
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  Speaker 1: Margaret Tarkington, a law professor at Indiana University who specializes
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  Speaker 1: in the First Amendment rights of lawyers, told Insider the
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  Speaker 1: judge in the Coburger case was treading and murky waters
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  Speaker 1: with the inclusion of the victims attorneys. There's no doubt
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  Speaker 1: that that's pretty unique, and I don't know how it's
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  Speaker 1: going to go over when all is said and done. However,
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  Speaker 1: that is the gag order as of now, and that
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  Speaker 1: is what the court has ordered everybody to abide by.
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  Speaker 1: So my guess is that Shannon Gray is going to
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  Speaker 1: abide by this order. I think there's a very solid
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  Speaker 1: argument that it would be unconstitutional to prohibit victims from
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  Speaker 1: making statements. Tarkington stead that undermines the whole right to
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  Speaker 1: public access to criminal proceedings, which is a foundational block
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  Speaker 1: in the US justice system. This idea that we will
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  Speaker 1: not have secret criminal proceedings, and there's no doubt we
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  Speaker 1: need to make sure that things are in secret. Anyone
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  Speaker 1: who followed the Jeffrey Epstein case understands very much so
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  Speaker 1: that the courts are not to just be trusted. Unfortunately,
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  Speaker 1: that's fantasyland shit. We have to make sure we're on
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  Speaker 1: our toes as the citizens and the populace and the
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  Speaker 1: taxpayers and make sure that these dudes and these women
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  Speaker 1: are doing the right thing because if not, forget it,
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  Speaker 1: it's going to be an absolute shit show and there's
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  Speaker 1: going to be corruption. Now I'm not saying that's what's
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  Speaker 1: going on here, but I'm talking about overall, it's very
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  Speaker 1: important that we the people are able to have a
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  Speaker 1: look at what's going on inside of these criminal proceedings.
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  Speaker 1: It is a foundational block and it's something that has
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  Speaker 1: to be respected by the court. While gag orders often
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  Speaker 1: prohibit prosecutors and defense attorneys from speaking about their cases,
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  Speaker 1: it's unclear how common it is for gag orders to
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  Speaker 1: target victims and their families. Not very common, by the way,
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  Speaker 1: not from my experience. Ken Paulson, the director of the
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  Speaker 1: Free Speech Center at Middle Tennessee State University, told Insider
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  Speaker 1: that while the practice was likely not unprecedented, it would
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  Speaker 1: be hard to justify it in this case. It's difficult
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  Speaker 1: to understand why the lawyers for the victims' families should
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  Speaker 1: be deprived of their free right or their free speech rights,
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  Speaker 1: particularly in a case in which the details of the
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  Speaker 1: crime and identity of the accused are universally known. Paulson said,
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  Speaker 1: So that once again takes me back, at least in
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  Speaker 1: my opinion, here to the Mad Greek and getting the
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  Speaker 1: leak about the Mad Greek, getting the leak about Instagram,
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  Speaker 1: and that's Judge Marshall trying to get ahead of it
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  Speaker 1: and maybe being a bit over zealous with her reaction.
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  Speaker 1: But it is interesting that it comes all in the
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  Speaker 1: wake of those leaks or those rumors, whatever you want
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  Speaker 1: to call them. The gag order also carries implications for
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  Speaker 1: the news media attempting to cover the Idaho murders. According
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  Speaker 1: to David Heller, deputy of the Media Law Resource Center,
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  Speaker 1: while this order doesn't gag the press directly, it does
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  Speaker 1: so more subtly by silencing all the sources of information
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  Speaker 1: about the case, including most broadly, the victim's representatives. Heller
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  Speaker 1: told Insider, a fair trial is important, but so too
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  Speaker 1: is vigorous press scrutiny of court proceedings that is one
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  Speaker 1: hundred percent correct. Of course, making sure that a fair
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  Speaker 1: trial has had is of the utmost importance. But we
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  Speaker 1: can't throw away the rights of the people because we're,
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  Speaker 1: you know, gonna bend over backwards over a quote unquote
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  Speaker 1: fair trial, because guess what, it's not like the prosecutors
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  Speaker 1: are giving out this information. We're talking about the representative
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  Speaker 1: for the family who allegedly gave out some information or
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  Speaker 1: there's a fear that they might give out information. So
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  Speaker 1: much so that Judge Marshall came with this very broad
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  Speaker 1: gag order. And there's no way, in my opinion, that
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  Speaker 1: all of this just happens to be a coincidence, meaning
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  Speaker 1: the timing. He added that it's also uncommon to issue
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  Speaker 1: gag orders before disputes over fair trial issues arise. John Brushke,
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  Speaker 1: a professor at California State University Fullerton who studied pre
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  Speaker 1: trial publicity, told Insider research shows gag orders are often ineffective.
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  Speaker 1: The vast majority of criminal defendants who go to trial
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  Speaker 1: convicted with or without the protection of a gag order.
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  Speaker 1: So I think what they're trying to do, and again
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  Speaker 1: this is just my guest, folks, is they're trying to
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  Speaker 1: avoid an appeal later on down the road, saying, look,
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  Speaker 1: he got a fair trial. Everything was on the up
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  Speaker 1: and up. You can try and get your appeal, but
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  Speaker 1: the appeals court's going to take a look at everything
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  Speaker 1: and they're gonna see that a, you were guilty and
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  Speaker 1: that the process was followed to a t. That's what
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  Speaker 1: I hope that they're shooting for here, and that's why
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  Speaker 1: they're trying to be so restrictive, because there shouldn't be
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  Speaker 1: any other reason than that. Right. Much of the pre
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  Speaker 1: trial publicity in a criminal case comes months or even
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  Speaker 1: years before the trial begins, Brushke said. In Coburger's case,
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  Speaker 1: his next hearing won't occur for another five months, and
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  Speaker 1: a trial could take even longer to begin. Just imagine
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  Speaker 1: you have to sit through a trial that's gonna be
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  Speaker 1: six to nine months long, listening to expert after expert,
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  Speaker 1: and forensic specialists and science and a bunch of statistics,
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  Speaker 1: and you don't understand how likely is it that what's
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  Speaker 1: really gonna tip your decision in the end is something
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  Speaker 1: you saw in the news. Three months before the trial started,
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  Speaker 1: Bruski said, human memory isn't that good. And this is
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  Speaker 1: what I've been saying from the jump. I think people
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  Speaker 1: are making a lot more out of this than needs
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  Speaker 1: to be made. Whenever you have a trial that has notoriety,
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  Speaker 1: there's going to be issues about a fair trial and
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  Speaker 1: all of that. But why don't we wait till we
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  Speaker 1: get to that phase. Let's wait till we get to
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  Speaker 1: jury selection and see what the jury pool looks like
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  Speaker 1: before we start fire and off broad orders gagging people
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  Speaker 1: who should be able at the very least to represent
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  Speaker 1: their clients. So for me, anyway, I think the broad
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  Speaker 1: gag order that has been amended the second part of
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  Speaker 1: it is not very good and not a good idea.
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  Speaker 1: Now do I think that some gag orders should probably
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  Speaker 1: be in place. Yeah. Do we need prosecutors running around
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  Speaker 1: piping off from the side of their neck. No? Do
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  Speaker 1: we need his defense attorneys doing that? No? But at
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  Speaker 1: the same time, the media certainly needs access to what's
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  Speaker 1: going on, and the public. Well, we're entitled to the
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  Speaker 1: inner workings of what's going on in that courtroom. Maybe
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  Speaker 1: not the information, but we are entitled to the inner
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  Speaker 1: workings of what's going on. And if this gag order
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  Speaker 1: is going to restrict that, then my guess is she's
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  Speaker 1: gonna have to amend it again and come up with
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  Speaker 1: something different. But we'll see where it all goes, and
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  Speaker 1: we'll see what happens with this gag order in the
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  Speaker 1: days to come. All right, folks, that's gonna do it
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  Speaker 1: for this one. If you'd like to contact me, you
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: can do that at Bobby Kapuci at ProtonMail dot com.
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  Speaker 1: That's bo bby c apu Cci at proton mail dot com.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: You can also find me on Twitter at bo bbuy
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  Speaker 1: underscore c A p U C C I. The link
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  Speaker 1: that I discussed can be found in the description box