Latest / UK Column Radio / Christine Discusses Failings in Children’s Services

Transcript

Christine Discusses Failings in Children’s Services · UK Column Radio

0:08
Good afternoon to UK column viewers and listeners, wherever
0:11
you are in the world. I'm here in the UK column
0:15
studios. But as you may see in the
0:17
background, I've got my friendly elephant and we've had some
0:21
jokes about that, the elephant in the room.
0:24
But it's quite a nice location. And today I'm going to use this
0:29
venue as as the place to speak to a lady on the subject of
0:36
children and interaction with children's services and the
0:40
family courts and many of the things that you've heard me talk
0:43
about before. And the lady who's joining me,
0:49
who I am going to call Christine, has to remain
0:55
anonymous at the moment, but we hope in the future to do some
0:59
more discussion together and then we'll we will be able to
1:05
talk about who she really is and maybe a little bit more about
1:08
her background. So, Christine, thank you very
1:11
much for joining me this afternoon.
1:13
Hiya. OK.
1:17
I was trying to think the other day, how, how long have we known
1:20
each other now? It's got to be a good two years,
1:23
hasn't it? Yeah, and I can't actually
1:27
remember how we got talking. I think somebody else gave me
1:33
your number. Oh, how we got talking is
1:37
because I was looking at every door to knockout for help and I
1:41
was given your name, so I phoned your office.
1:44
Right. And then you've got a hold of me
1:46
back. OK.
1:48
So I'm sure there's somebody in our audience is going to say how
1:51
terrible. Brian can't remember.
1:55
I'm not the only person that speaks to you, but.
1:59
I, I sometimes get a bit swamped with people and it gets, it gets
2:04
even more complicated when you end up with people who have the
2:07
same name. Yeah, so, but anyway, we, we
2:11
made it and we've had quite a few conversations where I've
2:15
been learning a bit about you and what's happened to your
2:19
family. And we've also had some broader
2:22
conversations where we've been talking about, we'll call it the
2:26
child protection system and how it works.
2:29
So let's let's start off if we can.
2:33
What can you tell us about yourself?
2:37
You're a mum, but tell us a little bit about who you are and
2:41
your background. I don't know how to explain it.
2:44
I was brought up in a family with just my mom and then she
2:50
had an older boy me and two other children which I have full
2:55
care of the my daughter because my mom was an alcoholic.
3:02
Then I have my own children. I was married young and had a
3:07
normal life as as though you could put it up until there and
3:11
my partner's there, but I was 27.
3:13
Everything was just as it is until I got to 40.
3:20
When I went to 40, I found out I was pregnant with my little boy,
3:26
my youngest, which would have been 2018, and my child, my
3:32
youngest child performed. My little one had ADHD.
3:38
I went to the system, asked them for help, they told me I didn't
3:41
meet the criteria. So, Christine, just because this
3:47
is a very interesting point, because in a lot of the cases
3:51
that I come into contact with, mothers will be in a situation
3:56
where they need some help. Sometimes they've been ill,
4:00
they've been in to hospital or something like that and they've
4:03
needed help and they've gone for that help and usually they are
4:08
saying to me they don't get it. So what?
4:10
What sort of help did you go to the system?
4:12
What did you need? I I couldn't Corey, sorry.
4:17
My son was getting kicked out of schools.
4:20
He was violent towards me. He was fine.
4:24
It was literally when I have the little one, he just resented me
4:29
because he's ADHD, couldn't I couldn't share my time with him.
4:33
Do you know what I mean? Everything was on the baby at
4:35
the time and he couldn't cope with that.
4:37
So he just got kicked out of every school he went.
4:41
He went basically like he hated me and was abusive towards me,
4:48
was abusive towards everyone in the house, damaged my house.
4:52
So I went to them to say I can't cope, I cannot cope with them.
4:58
And and what sort of response did you get then?
5:00
Well, that's the response I got. You don't meet the criteria,
5:03
you'll do more than what we could.
5:06
Right, OK. And that was in 2018.
5:09
How did you cope with that situation then?
5:13
Drink. That's how I started drinking
5:16
now because I couldn't cope. I had no support, no help and
5:21
that was the only way to block the block my life.
5:24
Do you know I've been he? He was telling me to go kill
5:27
myself every day. He was telling me to drop dead.
5:32
Corey knew if I sorry, he knew if I even misbehaved.
5:37
He rolled the roost. So he pushed every boundary
5:40
going and unfortunately it turned into a vicious circle.
5:44
What? What happens then?
5:48
They let him stay at a friend's house, which I did not agree to.
5:54
They they being who's there? Services.
5:58
Right. And it was locked down.
6:00
I'd have to give up my job. So that took myself worth away
6:03
from my job because he was going out and locked down and just
6:06
doing what he wanted really. Do you know what I mean?
6:10
It wasn't so much for the baby because it was a child.
6:12
Mine just when I worked it was the older two children and he
6:17
would abuse them and so then we had our first ever meeting which
6:22
was children needs because obviously the drinking and they
6:27
allowed him to go to my friends and then he come home one day
6:31
for my birthday. He stormed out of lockdown and
6:35
social. I phoned up the place and said
6:38
where he was and I want him home.
6:39
He was 14 and his social worker and the police both agreed that
6:45
they can he could stay at my friend's house for a bit, which
6:49
obviously I was not happy about. I said any you tell me I've got
6:52
no boundaries with him and you've just took my boundaries.
6:59
Literally that was it. For 8 weeks he was there.
7:03
Nothing I said changed. Obviously at that point I wasn't
7:07
drilling because he wasn't there and and then 8 weeks later after
7:12
I'd already said the honeymoon period of war off at my friend's
7:15
house, he'd been kicked out of there.
7:17
They tried to force me to take him back which I'd said no and I
7:22
was told by the social worker I've got no choice and.
7:27
That's, that's really fascinating, Christine, because
7:33
so many of the mums are in the position where they can't get
7:36
their children and then in your case, you're being told to take
7:42
a child back that you've said in the first place.
7:45
You're having. Difficulty looking after.
7:47
Properly. No, no, no, no.
7:49
They forced him to come back for me, which obviously then
7:52
escalated my drink and it got 10 because he'd come back with a
7:55
worse attitude then, do you know what I mean?
7:58
I'd sent him away. I'd done this, hit more hatred
8:01
towards me. So it got worse and then I lost
8:04
him. I lost all my children.
8:07
So how many children did you lose?
8:09
Well, I, they asked me on that day because he'd already
8:13
literally burgled somebody's bike.
8:15
The day the social turn out. I was, I'm not, I'm not proud of
8:19
this. I was drunk and my dad had come
8:22
over and said in front of the social worker, I told you, why
8:26
did you have him back? And I said, dad, I had no
8:29
choice. He said, and my dad doesn't
8:31
swear. And he was, of course, you had a
8:35
choice. And I went, I did I and I put it
8:38
the social work, which says did I have a choice?
8:40
And she just looked down. And then we get a grown man
8:44
kicking my door in telling me that robbed her son's bike.
8:50
And this is as I'm going out the door with my dad.
8:53
Do you know what I mean? They asked me to leave because
8:55
my oldest child was 28. So the little one and the oldest
9:01
one stayed with and I went to my dad's.
9:04
So I got told to leave. Well, I didn't get told to
9:08
leave. I offered to leave for the
9:10
simple fact that they said it was for two days and I didn't
9:16
want my kids going anywhere. So obviously I'm going to put
9:20
the kids first. And in that time, the social
9:24
workers seeing all of this happening, all this unfold and
9:27
this blokes kicking the door in and my son's going back him
9:32
trying to hit him. And it's like I said, this is
9:35
what I deal with every single day.
9:36
I said, do you not understand? And that was it. 5 months later,
9:44
but I was still at my dad's house, right?
9:46
I wasn't allowed to return home and worse, my kids would have
9:49
been took. So.
9:51
So who was at home then? My oldest son.
9:55
Right. Was there until October.
9:58
He was with my older son and my daughter until I push because
10:03
because my older son hasn't got children he's not very maternal.
10:07
I didn't want him to be there so my child minds of actually took
10:12
him through a foster in placement.
10:14
She did the guardian which took to October.
10:17
So we'll still with my older son until October the first time and
10:23
then obviously went with the child minds once thingy went
10:26
through and I couldn't return home until that point.
10:30
I didn't at the time to go into foster care because it was only
10:33
under Section 20. OK, so is this is this the point
10:38
Christine? Where you is this where you
10:43
managed to stop the drink and you start fighting for your
10:47
family again? Yeah, it completely stopped the
10:50
drink. That was it.
10:51
The boy with the ADHD, they let him stay with his girlfriend who
10:55
was 14, her family which was not agreed by me, which I fought
11:00
through court and they literally got the liability assessment
11:08
that I got on the family that he was staying at, which I thought
11:15
was shocking to say the least. Shocking to say coke.
11:20
The boy is basically a child that's vulnerable to does of his
11:27
ADHD, sex, personality, drugs, alcohol, like exploitation.
11:33
They put him in a household where they have 3 pages of
11:36
criminal backgrounds. They put him in the light.
11:40
The liability assessment for that family stated they allow
11:43
him to do drugs, but it it goes on that there's so much on there
11:50
that the system told him he was better off in a placement that
11:58
would have been worse than a prison.
11:59
To be fair, all I ever asked for was him to go to a placement
12:04
that could deal with his behaviour so he could
12:08
reintegrate back home. Right.
12:11
So you, you were asking, seems to me something reasonable that
12:16
if you can't cope with him, he he's at least put somewhere
12:21
safe, safe and where there are people who are capable of not
12:25
only coping with him, people who are able to.
12:29
Help him. With him and help him.
12:30
Yeah, no, do that. Is it at this point that you are
12:36
starting to challenge them through the courts with?
12:39
Yeah, everything bends through the courts.
12:42
This baby I got straight back in the following September.
12:48
Yeah, September, obviously with no plan of the older 1 coming
12:55
back. I said that under no
12:57
circumstances was I putting a little one through that.
13:00
The abuse was just too much. It was like I stated to them, if
13:05
that was my partner doing that, you'd be removing my children
13:08
because of domestic violence, right?
13:11
But you're allowed because it's my son.
13:13
Yes. It was just like so obviously
13:19
then I still fought for for the older one for the courts.
13:22
So we go to a special placement and that didn't happen.
13:26
They got this. They couldn't get a child
13:30
arrangement order now, they couldn't get a special
13:33
guardianship order because the count, the local council
13:36
wouldn't touch it because of the viability.
13:39
The liability, viability assessment, sorry, not
13:41
liability, viability assessment. There was no way they would be
13:46
able to get one because it was that bad.
13:49
OK. For a child arrangement order
13:51
for this child and they got it in Jan, the following January,
13:55
after that since September. And what does what did that mean
13:59
when you got that? It didn't mean anything because
14:02
within a month he was kicked out of that house and he was living.
14:06
They didn't nobody even told me where he was.
14:08
I'd never he didn't have a social worker.
14:10
The day he went and got that child arrangement order, they
14:13
took him off any, any sort of social services involvement.
14:18
Sorry, they give him APA. Which is.
14:22
Somebody that goes and if he needs money or help like that,
14:25
it's personal assistant really. OK.
14:29
It does mean personal assistant, Yeah, OK.
14:31
But there's somebody there to, you know, to give him some form
14:35
of support if he needs. He needs it with relatively
14:39
simple things. Yeah, but they didn't inform me.
14:42
Apparently he he gave us consent because he was 16 at this point.
14:46
Apparently they said that it doesn't.
14:49
If he doesn't want to tell me anything, I don't need to know.
14:52
And my idea he was still, by the eyes of the law, ransom a child.
14:56
So 18. Yes, this is where child
15:00
protection social services very interesting, isn't it because
15:05
very often they're saying that a child needs protection,
15:10
particularly when the child is capable and set speaks out their
15:14
own mind, for example, where they do or do not want to live,
15:18
which parent they want to live with and which ones they don't.
15:21
Very often that's that child's opinion is steamrolled.
15:25
And then when we get it, we get it the other way around where
15:30
basically, well, we can't help and and anything goes.
15:34
The child can do what they like. You wouldn't, you wouldn't even
15:39
understand my literally in this time when I was at my worst, my
15:46
daughter's friend that lived around the corner had moved out
15:49
of her home and they'd placed this child with me.
15:54
So when I was at my worst, they were, they were on child
15:57
protection. They'd give me another foster
16:00
child, essentially. Yes, I, I remember you, you
16:04
talking about this. Well, let's do the first thing,
16:07
which is the nice thing we say that it's, it's absolutely to
16:11
your credit that that you took that girl on, but it is
16:16
incredible that in the circumstances you were in, you
16:22
you were given somebody else to look after.
16:24
Yeah, in the hole in the firm, in the mix of it and they even
16:28
had two meetings because they tried to use that in court that
16:32
they didn't play so with me and I give them the date and said
16:35
we'll go and check your files. You literally had two meetings
16:39
on that day, checked your files and and I said to the court
16:43
obviously you were paying me, you hit with me, not paying me
16:50
but they were giving me 30 lbs vouchers a week and bringing
16:53
them to my house. I said.
16:55
So if that's not an arrangement for you, then what is?
16:59
A lot of people will not be, will be listening to this
17:03
Christine or watching and they will they will be saying I can't
17:07
believe this. Yeah, it was a day after.
17:11
They were on the child protection.
17:12
The day after. A lot, a lot of parents talk
17:16
about the problems they have had through the court system.
17:19
Very often they say they were deceived by legal teams or let
17:25
down, or they found it difficult to get a decent legal team.
17:29
But something I paid attention to was that you, you've
17:33
indicated to me that actually you've had some quite good help
17:38
from a legal team in court. Not right.
17:41
This was, this was the first time around I had a solicitor
17:45
that, that they give you a list, don't they?
17:48
When it all comes out and you're going on child protection, they
17:50
give you a nice little list of who to go to, which being naive,
17:56
you just pick one, don't you? You at face value you don't
17:59
think. And they were literally fired
18:03
before my final hearing. I literally I got more used to
18:09
it as I got on and on the final hearing I'd I'd fired them so we
18:15
had to have their German and I got a new solicitor and I
18:19
remember walking in there. I can remember sitting down with
18:22
the new barrister and the new solicitor and I walked in.
18:24
They said you haven't got a hope for the Hell's chance.
18:27
He goes. I'm not I don't remember his
18:29
words lesson the barrister. He went, I'm not a negative kind
18:33
of person or a positive kind of person.
18:36
I'm a realist and you've got no hope.
18:40
So where I go pulling out my bag, all my evidence with
18:43
obviously having a foster child in that time and everything well
18:47
out of I have so much evidence by that time you get pardoned to
18:53
it once you get your head back in straight, you know, I mean,
18:57
and I recorded everything. I diaried everything, you name
19:01
it. Nothing was said to me without
19:03
what they've been evidenced, you know, and I all the paperwork
19:10
and it's exact words, but to me where to?
19:12
Well, not to me, to my new solicitor, right?
19:15
I'm sorry you're going to be working this weekend.
19:17
I need all this ready for Monday.
19:20
And they printed it all off, put it into the court bundle and
19:24
that's when I got straight back. So.
19:26
So it is, it is true, Christine, that OK, you want to put
19:30
pressure on the new legal team. But they did act quite often.
19:35
I hear that. I, I couldn't have asked for a
19:37
better legal team. I couldn't ask for a better
19:40
legal team. But I, I did so much hard work
19:43
for them. And so I think they've given me
19:45
back because I did so much as well.
19:49
And it my barristers as that words.
19:51
I've never seen a man fight as hard as you have.
19:54
Well, that's, that's a huge compliment, isn't it?
19:58
No, because I got myself into that situation in the 1st place,
20:01
you know? No, but they recognise what you
20:03
did and, and we can also say, OK, so you've made some bad
20:08
decisions and you ended up in a very bad place, but you got
20:11
yourself out of that. And then when when you did the
20:14
hard work, the legal team responded to it.
20:18
I think I probably nabbed them a lot.
20:20
Yeah, well, this, this is a good lesson, isn't it, for other,
20:24
other parents when this is all going on?
20:28
You at the beginning of the, you know, when we started the the
20:32
video running you, you said you were talking about when you got
20:35
in touch with me during this period that you were trying to
20:40
fight for your son through the courts.
20:42
Is this when you you got in touch with other other mums who
20:46
were having problems? Now that son, I go on a Facebook
20:53
page and the stories are so similar, so, so similar.
20:58
In fact, you can tell who the new people are on there because
21:03
they say, oh, do you know the social services lie?
21:05
They've been caught. Like they're, they're not
21:09
shocked by it. And we're just at them like most
21:12
people have been there through this.
21:14
I like that's that's a normal blessing they got up for them.
21:19
You you're laughing at this and and, and no, I, no, I understand
21:23
why and it's but you are absolutely right.
21:27
Is that a couple of weeks ago I was with a group of mums, 24 all
21:31
together actually, and and in when there was some discussion
21:38
in front of those women. Yes, the newcomers were doing
21:44
exactly that and I got a legal team and then I discovered they
21:47
were working behind my back with the local authority and then all
21:51
the other experienced mums are saying yeah, welcome to the club
21:55
if. You don't laugh, you'll cry.
21:57
You had a bad legal team and then I'm going to say you had a
22:00
much better legal team. How did you, how did you find
22:04
the court setting? What was what were the judges
22:07
like that you came in front of in the family courts?
22:11
To be totally honest, I didn't have a bad timing call the F
22:16
tech process, but this this was going on later once they took
22:20
for the second time. I, I remember when you first
22:23
told me about F tech, I was fascinated because I got it, I
22:28
got it confused with the fixated threat assessment centre, which
22:33
is a sort of counter terrorism issue.
22:35
But in fact, for you tell tell us again what it stands for.
22:40
Drug and alcohol caught. So basically it's a different
22:44
process When you sign up to this, you sign up to it, It's
22:49
apparently a better chance of being able to reunification with
22:53
your children. But it's very intense, so they
22:57
say. I saw no intenseness of it.
23:01
You see people all the time that you get alcohol tested weekly.
23:05
I'm like I said, I said that for a year was off the supervision
23:09
order. The social worker that I had I
23:12
because I, I suffered with Sabs, right?
23:17
And I had a big court case coming up that I was a victim to
23:21
in the January and he'd come off at December and me being an
23:27
idiot myself, forgot to pick on the sotrelene.
23:31
It was over Christmas and I was brilliant.
23:33
Do you know what I mean? Within two weeks, I don't know.
23:37
I just lost it just before the court case and has free their
23:40
relapse. Yeah.
23:42
And I, I think Chris, it's, it's fair to say here, we'll say to
23:47
the audience at this point that you started the story with
23:52
yourself and and your own children, which is quite right.
23:55
But I think we can say to the audience that they should know,
24:00
if you're watching, listening to this, you should know that there
24:03
was something else that had been going on in the background
24:07
around Christine, which had put her under huge pressure.
24:12
And so this time round in this discussion, we're only
24:18
concentrate. We're only able to concentrate
24:20
on Christine and her, her immediate family and children.
24:24
But there was something else going on in the background as
24:27
well, which hopefully in a few weeks, a couple of months, maybe
24:33
we we can, we can talk a little bit about, you know, we can talk
24:38
more about that. But it's, I think it's only fair
24:40
to you, Christine, to say, you know, you've been very honest
24:45
with the sort of pressures you're under and some of the
24:47
things that you did and did not do.
24:49
But there was also something else which was weighing pretty
24:52
heavy on you at that stage. Yeah.
24:56
Yeah, but it was historical view, so I can still mention
24:59
that. And it, it had been brought to
25:02
court, hadn't it? So it was it, I mean nothing, I
25:06
can't justify anything that I did wrong.
25:09
I sorry, I can't justify myself for anything that went wrong.
25:16
I'm saying I was put in these situations and I reacted.
25:21
So I can't, don't think for one second.
25:23
I don't take accountability for my mistakes because I do.
25:28
So I don't want people thinking that I've got excuses because I
25:33
haven't. You know what I mean?
25:35
I should have not fixed up the bottle about 3 day relapse.
25:40
I shouldn't have done it. I can't blame situations for me
25:44
being out of control. Well, that's, you know, that's
25:49
really good of you to to say that and admit it.
25:53
But I'm just going to echo back. But it is true that there were
25:57
other pressure, there were other pressures on you and.
25:59
Yeah, I just don't want to be sat here.
26:01
I want to get both sides across, you know what I mean?
26:04
I'm, I believe that's only my fault that I did that.
26:07
But yeah, there have been. And I and obviously in the
26:10
December before the relapse, when I was signed off, I asked
26:14
them could I please stay on social services for a bit,
26:17
especially to get me through like the South, like season
26:21
tension disorder time over the winter.
26:25
And I was told that there wasn't enough funding, but that left me
26:31
with nothing. And that's obviously just after
26:34
just before my my triggers and obviously my relapse.
26:42
But they were quick enough to jump straight back in if he
26:44
wasn't on social. And they took him straight away.
26:46
But he went to my sister's house the first day of the relapse.
26:51
And obviously that was it until I had to fight from to get him
26:55
back. Yes.
26:57
And how? How long has he been back with
26:59
you? He's starting back since
27:02
October, October, so eight months.
27:07
Can I ask how how are you getting on?
27:09
Absolutely amazing. Absolutely brilliant.
27:12
And is that partly because your other child is that much older
27:17
and you've got more time, more time to give or, or is it a
27:21
combination of things? Combination of things and the
27:26
fight. I think the the fight was the
27:28
hardest part. You've had to fight.
27:29
Does does he realise how much you fought for him?
27:33
He's only seven. He, he worships me.
27:35
He absolutely worships me and I worship him.
27:37
Do you know what I mean? He's, he is a proper mummy's boy
27:41
and that to me is enough. Do you know what I mean?
27:43
But I, I still never drunk again after that three day relapse.
27:47
I mean, I was sober for three years when I'd gotten back the
27:50
first time and after that three day relapse I've never touched
27:54
anything. And that's been since 2 1/2
27:58
years now. Well done.
28:01
FTAC was what we were going for, wasn't it?
28:03
Yes, yes, what FTAC was and what it, what it, what it did.
28:07
So you you did a a course with them which you didn't find
28:11
difficult. They they offer you a chance
28:14
basically it's a different process apparently.
28:17
So you sit in front of the the judge every felt night without
28:21
fail. It's a new new thing they've put
28:24
in place that helps people with drinking drugs and it's
28:30
basically a 28 day. If you agree to it, it's a 28
28:34
week hold and they reckon it's intense.
28:40
Like with for me it would be true on the Furby.
28:44
But you did it Crystal. Well, no, I didn't do it.
28:47
I didn't They get you to basically when you start it and
28:53
you agree to it, you go to court and then you go back every
28:57
fortnight. So I was travelling 2 hours on a
29:01
bus there two hours back every fortnight to see the judge and
29:09
you don't have no legal with you.
29:10
You just sit in a room with the judge and all the F TAC team.
29:14
Who Who is the F TAC team? Counsellors, you have a
29:21
psychologist that runs it that Deborah never met me in her life
29:26
didn't meet me, but she could sit back right.
29:30
It's weird because the the two people I have one person for the
29:34
trauma therapy and I have another one with mindfulness and
29:41
basically when they have their little things because they they
29:45
write you a report every two weeks for call and when he gives
29:51
you the report, it's basically like I don't really have any
29:55
positives and I used to say to him, I see why you've got to
30:00
have negatives in it and he went I said because you won't get the
30:03
funding for it, will you? And he sort of I've gotten quite
30:09
well with him. And and then it would go up to
30:13
the F DAC team, which is the manager, these two people that I
30:18
have that I've gotten really well with and this psychologist
30:24
and they come back with 20 negatives inside.
30:30
Even though you've got it really good with the people that you
30:35
saw when it went to the other team, it got turned around and
30:39
twisted into well, Charlotte's Web and that put me basically
30:48
that took you so you see them every two weeks.
30:51
The judge asked how you getting on how you going and I gotten
30:55
really the judge was really, really, really quite good to be
31:00
fair. But social services were thrown
31:03
in the mix, all the lies and causing a lot of issues in the
31:08
background that they weren't able to apparently deal with my
31:11
stuff. So they told me that I wouldn't
31:13
be getting them in. There'll be no reunification.
31:20
So let's ask the key question then, Christine, What in in in
31:25
the court case, when you did win him back, what was it that what
31:31
was it? Do you think that swung the case
31:34
in your favour? Why did the judge give him back?
31:37
What happened in that case that you think was significant?
31:41
Well when we come out of that the judge, the lies that had
31:44
been told, I'd apparently told my son stuff in Marriott
31:48
facilitated contact so they are baby hunters in the room and the
31:54
social worker was lying just before court so they could stop
31:58
my contact with him then try and reduced it and put me back to
32:03
supervised and I knew I hadn't said it.
32:07
I argued it and argued it and go and her getting to know me.
32:12
That was the only good thing about the F DAC process because
32:15
my argument is they give me no help or no support or the help
32:19
that I've seen sued 2 psychologists and that was for
32:24
no no no social service of involvement.
32:27
I got that help. And to be fair, if that court
32:31
case hadn't come up, I'd probably wouldn't have got tape,
32:34
do you know what I mean? In fact, I wouldn't have got any
32:37
of them. OK.
32:38
And so you're saying that those the input from those
32:42
psychologists was critical in the court case?
32:45
Oh yeah, absolutely critical. I wouldn't have got where I did
32:49
without all the help out and support I'd had but and that
32:55
shouldn't have took for it to come.
32:57
So that obviously the case that I had for the help to be put
33:01
onto you should be given that help anyway.
33:04
This is absolutely true and out of all the mums that I've dealt
33:09
with, particularly over, you know, the recent couple of
33:12
years, last couple of years, this is an absolute common theme
33:17
that when they needed help from social service that they
33:20
couldn't get it. There was one mum that that had
33:23
two very small babies taken away from her and she needed some
33:28
help in the early days and then she ends up with those babies
33:32
taken away from her. She's never hurt them, she's
33:35
never starved them, she has never done any psychological
33:39
abuse. She just needed a bit of help
33:44
after they were born. But they psychologically abused
33:47
my child all the way through by stopping and seeing me and
33:51
stopping my contacts. So this is the line that that
33:55
gets crossed. These children are
33:58
psychologically abused by stopping them seeing their
34:01
family. I don't understand.
34:03
I mean when when my little one come back they said the foster
34:07
carer asked if they want to see him.
34:10
I said but they didn't even give a shit that they dropped my
34:14
contact down to once a month. To be clear, you were clean at
34:18
the time that. Oh yeah, I've been alcohol
34:21
tested. Not drugs, something I've done,
34:23
drugs, alcohol tested. I'll wait for it that God knows
34:26
how hair test. I thought I was going to be bold
34:28
by the end of this. I got a Sprint bracelet fitted.
34:31
You name it, I got it. If I suggested I'll have a scrum
34:34
bracelet to have them home, I'll have anything because that that
34:37
reports back to them. And I thought, obviously I don't
34:41
feel that unsafe not to drink if I need a scrum bracelet.
34:45
They weren't looking at it as like that.
34:48
She's even saying she'll have a scrum bracelet to prove it.
34:52
It was the negative side to it. And then they make an arbitrary
34:56
decision on how much contact you're going to get with your
34:59
own son, and that puts both of you under stress, doesn't it?
35:03
That took us. So they tried to get six weeks
35:05
and obviously I put a breach of human rights in and and luckily
35:12
because I'd had close contact with the judge, she said that
35:16
that wasn't ever going to happen.
35:17
That was not fair on Kai, the little boy, He couldn't cope
35:21
without me for a six weeks, so I thought it would juice to fall.
35:25
But it's but that even that even that broke us out.
35:30
It broke us out. Yeah, Now you came, you came
35:33
looking, you came looking for me, Christine.
35:36
And we started to have some interesting conversations.
35:39
At that time, I'd, I'd got a number of mums who were talking
35:44
to me. Some of them knew each other and
35:47
some of them didn't. But in the when, when you and I
35:52
have had a chat, this is one of the things we've been talking
35:54
about, about the sheer number of mothers that who were out there
35:59
who have had these sorts of problems with social services.
36:03
This is not, you know, this is not just your opinion of the
36:07
system. There are so many mums that have
36:10
tried to engage in order to get help and it hasn't happened.
36:14
And then the next minute, you know, they're being accused of
36:18
things and there's massive effort put into taking their
36:22
own, their children away from them.
36:24
This is where the system, let me ask you, is, is in your opinion,
36:29
is social services, is it just broken?
36:32
Is it incompetent? Or is there something else going
36:35
on with it? It's outdated, completely
36:38
outdated. What?
36:39
What do you mean by that? It doesn't for what's going on
36:44
in the world today, it doesn't meet the needs.
36:47
It's very it's from back, it's back in the hundreds of years
36:52
old, isn't it this they don't they haven't got there's no can
36:57
I just say what I told the judge right.
37:00
We were in that what I said to the, the judge had asked me a
37:04
question in one of these meetings and she said, how could
37:10
you get on back with your social worker?
37:12
And I, I said, and at this time I was trying to bite my tongue a
37:16
bit because I can obviously talk.
37:20
And so I was like, bite my tongue and saying nothing.
37:23
And and she sort of laughed and said, no, come on, how could
37:27
you? I said, well, all right, I'll be
37:28
honest. There is a way that's a better
37:31
training for your system. I said you're telling me I'm the
37:34
mother that it's emotional with trauma, like high trauma levels,
37:42
emotional wreck because I haven't got my child with health
37:48
like mental health issues. And you're asking me how I'm
37:52
going to deal with your member staff that you're taking As for
37:55
everything she's saying as possible as a professional.
38:01
So they need to know how to work with parents that have all these
38:06
needs. Yeah, this is this is very true.
38:08
In that you happen to deal with her, you should be hurt now in
38:11
hell to deal with people that have these problems.
38:16
If they're professional, they should be professional.
38:18
I see this in cases that you have people who need help and
38:23
almost from the moment social services get engaged, they are
38:28
not helping and supporting. They're already trying to build
38:32
a case in order against you. Yes, and then?
38:37
Evidence from the first time from my housing because I was
38:42
trying to move that stated before my even 1st court
38:47
hearing, my first step of court hearing.
38:50
So I hadn't been to court at that point that they had stated
38:55
that they were going to be taking my son.
38:57
And yet all the way through the court, they said in court, and
39:00
I've got that in evidence, that they told me that, that under no
39:04
circumstance that he was reunificating home and he
39:07
wouldn't be kept from me. Do you know what I mean?
39:10
It's completely contradictory, but the evidence that I have
39:14
does not state that. When you talk to me, Christine,
39:18
the phone calls we had, something I always knew about
39:22
you is that you were very dedicated, you were very
39:26
passionate because you'd be saying to me they are not going
39:29
to keep my son. And you have, you have kept
39:33
fighting this. This actually is a very, I've
39:37
done a lot of interviews recently where they're all
39:40
tragic because the mums have had their children taken away and at
39:45
the moment there's no sign of them getting those children
39:48
back. You've had your children taken
39:51
away, some taken away and you've got him back.
39:56
And that is absolutely to your credit.
39:58
You've fought like a tiger to do that.
40:01
But my barrister was absolutely phenomenal.
40:04
But yes, you've also admitted that the end of the day, the
40:07
barrister, I mean, at least they worked for you because this is
40:11
something else that other families say is that.
40:13
They a list. That's the difference.
40:15
He was not on their list. OK, explain to the audience what
40:19
that means. They they give you a list like I
40:21
said at the. Moment Social Services.
40:24
Give you a list. They they give you a court, pre
40:27
court things and then they give you a list and they say right,
40:30
there's a list of social likes listers.
40:33
That's where I went wrong the first time.
40:35
And that's why I fired them and got myself one that was not on
40:39
that list. And it's all the learning curve
40:41
is and the like human rights thing.
40:44
What they did to me and my son was nothing more than every
40:51
breach of the given right side from Article 3 and eight.
40:54
They taught me to the point I didn't want to get out of bed.
40:58
Some days they make me feel so worthless.
41:01
Sorry about tears because I'm trying to do you know what I
41:05
mean? They, they literally terrorise
41:08
you. It's only that I have the
41:10
strength, like not to read that, that second time to have to pick
41:16
my first cell back and fight against them.
41:19
And that never happened and it's fine help to try help other
41:23
people who aren't as like strong minded as things.
41:27
Yeah, but you, you, Christine, you did it, didn't you?
41:30
That's the, that is the fantastic thing.
41:32
You did it and. Didn't have to do it.
41:35
That's the thing that they. No, I I understand that, but but
41:39
you did it and and you got it. You got a fantastic result and
41:44
what you are saying should be an inspiration to other mums who
41:49
were still in the position of fighting.
41:51
Because of the failings with the F tech that they didn't marry on
41:54
their end of the deal where they was telling me I haven't done
41:56
all my work, but I had. They told me I couldn't do it
41:59
anymore. Do you know what I mean?
42:01
There were so many failures. That was only because I was on
42:04
top of everything and we were on top of everything to know that.
42:09
This is all brilliant. You, you stayed in there and I
42:13
also know by the way, that in phone calls you've quoted the
42:17
law at me just like you're talking about human rights that
42:21
you, you've obviously been reading the books and the
42:24
documents so that you. Won't.
42:25
Yeah, I I'd spent two years, I didn't leave my house for two
42:28
years. I worked part time in the
42:30
evenings, 3 nights a week, every other day.
42:33
I didn't leave my house. I stayed in and I I've been
42:37
through so much. I just got obsessed.
42:39
I think I was not. They were not having much done.
42:42
Did you quote Law back at the the that second legal team?
42:46
Were you telling them what they should have been looking at?
42:51
Well, I think I was the only one that walked in court with a
42:56
suitcase full of paperwork and literally as my barrister was
43:02
because we had a three day trial on the last hearing.
43:05
So I wanted them all on the stand and everything they were
43:10
saying and I was stood there with my folders pulling out the
43:15
pages and giving it to my parents.
43:19
So but I had evidence of everything they said.
43:23
I literally. Another question for you for you
43:26
then Christine is did did they did they let you speak in court
43:30
because quite often if you've. Got no, no.
43:33
I passed everything and wrote it and passed it to my barrister.
43:37
Every time I could speak in call was when it was the F tech.
43:40
That's every. You go in for an hour and then
43:44
you get your chance to talk then.
43:46
But apart from that, no. And.
43:47
What was it? Was it the same judge stayed
43:50
with the case, kept the case to themselves?
43:53
Was it that late? Until the last year permission
43:55
to appeal. I was a Circuit Judge.
43:58
It got changed and basically we walked in and on the first day
44:01
my my barrister was cop facts. We literally walked in with all
44:05
the evidence and because social services haven't contacted me,
44:09
they haven't even known I've done the psychologist.
44:12
I'd have my intense therapy, my trauma therapy.
44:15
They didn't know I was seeing the other psychologists.
44:19
So when they, we went back for permission to appeal, because it
44:22
was quite a while, that court case was November and by then it
44:26
was March. So I'd have like 3 months of the
44:30
psychologists of both psychologists and have write
44:33
wrote a report for that. So they haven't really got hold
44:37
of me in that time. They produced the contact.
44:39
They don't reply to you. They it's like you don't exist.
44:42
They don't reply to emails, phone calls, nothing.
44:47
And hence why I've got a long complaints for stage again with
44:51
them. You know, it's like you're not
44:55
even the child's mum by that time.
44:57
I'd done all this work when he went in for permission to appeal
45:00
before we were in there 2 minutes and we got sent out.
45:04
Why is this lady not had a psychologist assessment?
45:08
Because like I said in the F tag they told me I wasn't getting in
45:11
the home from a psychologist that never even met me from the
45:14
team. It stopped halfway through.
45:16
How do they know I wouldn't have been able to complete it in 28
45:20
weeks? They stopped it at 14 weeks.
45:23
Christine, how, how did the you're saying your barrister was
45:28
sort of amazed and you were working with him in court and
45:31
handing him documents? How did the local authority
45:35
barrister react? To be fair, we we had two or
45:39
three different barristers over the whole time.
45:43
They weren't. They weren't too bad because
45:46
obviously I think they got used to me by the first time.
45:50
I mean, because it, it, it is true, isn't it, that they, they
45:54
can work very hard to undermine a mother or a father in court?
46:00
The local authority barristers can be pretty brutal.
46:03
I'd never not took my hands off to wear any mistake I've made.
46:07
I've never ever. But I certainly won't take
46:10
accountability for their mistakes.
46:12
Do you know what I mean? This is this is my argument.
46:15
There has to be some change in the system.
46:18
They have to be accountable. It's not just lessons learned,
46:21
it's change. Do you know what I mean?
46:23
It's nothing to do with lessons learned, because they're not
46:26
learning. I think that's absolutely true.
46:29
When I I, we're obviously watching all the saga unfold at
46:35
the moment where we're going to have more enquiries into child
46:39
abuse. But I look at the the previous
46:42
IXA inquiry where obviously huge, huge failings in many
46:48
cases with social services and the child protection teams.
46:52
But what has actually changed since?
46:55
It's nothing. And now Keir Starmer's, you
46:59
know, we're going to put another one in place and I can say
47:02
what's going to happen, it will be nothing.
47:05
So there's something, there's something dark at the heart of
47:10
the system. I, I personally no longer
47:12
believe that the failings are incompetent, are simply
47:15
incompetence. There is incompetence, there's
47:18
no doubt about that. But I refuse to believe that
47:22
when you see so much going wrong in a similar fashion right the
47:27
way across the country, it's like a template of failure.
47:32
And that says to me, this is not just incompetence, it it's like
47:37
something's at work that's orchestrated and it's not in the
47:41
best interests of families. I, I, you know, I've, I've never
47:46
been through this system. I've only been into the system
47:49
with mums and some families where I've been able to go into
47:53
court and I've been alongside them as they've been through the
47:57
system. So as a, I think I'm entitled to
48:01
say I can be a detached observer to what goes on.
48:05
And I look at it and I say this is a system which is not helping
48:11
families in need. It's often working to undermine
48:15
them and it's. Well, can I tell you I've got a
48:18
quote from the one of the social workers that I'm going with my
48:25
complaints, which is in it's in microblanes, which states I said
48:31
to her, you're supposed to be there to help us.
48:33
She go and her exact words went to me.
48:35
I am his social worker, not yours.
48:39
Yes, yes. And black and white even from
48:43
the obviously when I've gone through data protection to get
48:46
all my data protection, it's in black and white on the
48:48
paperwork. And now after it says that
48:51
states, well, you need to be looking at your name changing,
48:55
don't you? Because it says Child and family
48:57
service. Well, this, this is where, what
49:03
sort of language do they use? They use every child matters and
49:06
then they say the child must come first.
49:09
And then we have the secrecy of the family courts, which is
49:13
supposedly to their to protect the children, but actually what
49:18
it often means is that the secrecy of the court is there to
49:23
enact policies or procedures around the child where the child
49:28
is damaged. Well, who protect?
49:30
Who protected my oldest son then when they let him go to a house?
49:35
Criminal backgrounds. There's no nobody.
49:39
But exactly where was the potential then?
49:41
And I, I've done another interview with a a lady where
49:45
her children went into care and were taken into care.
49:51
And when they came out, they were they got all sorts of
49:55
problems as a result of what happened to them in care.
49:58
Well, you've seen my photos of what he was like in that system
50:04
and being in that home with me, the photos.
50:07
Yeah. I mean that you don't have to
50:10
look at that and see. I mean, I've got photos of his
50:13
shoes being 3 sizes too big. And do you know what?
50:18
It sounds really, really sad, but it was like they were trying
50:21
to wind me up because I knew I'd fight.
50:24
They put bang shoes on him three times and knowing that I'd kick
50:27
off when I'm buying his stuff. Do you know what I mean?
50:31
No, he never had to wear clothes.
50:33
It didn't fit him because I sent him with all his clothes.
50:35
I sent him. Do you know they they even?
50:40
No, go, go on, Christine. Christine say it because it's
50:43
the whole point of of having this discussion and letting
50:47
other people watching and hear. What size nappies does he wear?
50:53
At the age of 6? Picking him up from school.
50:55
They took him from school and didn't even tell my sister they
50:59
were getting him because he was at my sister's and so he went to
51:01
the boss tiara. They dragged him full for
51:06
absolutely no reason whatsoever and they'd seen me in court
51:10
within two hours before and they didn't even tell my sister and
51:14
they asked what size nappies he was wearing.
51:16
They didn't even know his name. Yeah, I, I, I would guess that
51:21
that question was asked simply to wind you up.
51:26
I could be wrong. Well, it backfired because it's
51:30
all in the complaints procedures that I got going.
51:33
OK, talk about those then. You, you have used the
51:37
complaint. I know you're going to laugh.
51:39
I know. But you, you played the game.
51:43
You've gone for the complaints procedure.
51:45
What? What actually happened?
51:47
Well, it got put in right after because literally the day after
51:51
court it started. Everything started.
51:54
As soon as they found out they've got, he weren't ever
51:57
coming home before we put the infields in.
51:59
That's when all the stuff started.
52:03
They just from day one, they stopped the contact.
52:07
They changed contact dates about telling anyone, they you name
52:11
it, they done it. Anything, anything to trigger
52:15
me. But at that point I have done a
52:17
lot of cancer and I was inviting so much to it.
52:21
Yeah, but I was a child that wasn't heard much when I was
52:24
younger, which obviously you're aware of the situation.
52:29
My mum didn't listen to things there should have been listened
52:32
to, so I do listen to him and I will fight for him.
52:37
He hasn't got a voice in that system and yet and if it upset a
52:41
few people, it upset a few people.
52:43
I was not letting him, which probably was my downfall, but I
52:49
know did. Christine, stay on the
52:52
complaints you but. This is what I mean.
52:54
So I did then I, they, they just did throw everything at me from
52:58
after I did stage 1, which got a pitiful answer back, this sort
53:04
of thing which I've completely proved everything to be what it
53:07
was. And then because I went back
53:10
into permission to appeal, they stopped every single complaint
53:13
because I was back in the court process.
53:15
Yeah. With the judge then at the first
53:19
permission to appeal saying that it's not relevant to this, you
53:24
can deal with it. They literally social services
53:28
didn't tell complaints system that was filled first.
53:31
So I had to then wait till we went back to court at the end of
53:34
the year until they don't do anything.
53:36
So then it all started again, which now I'm on my 6 months
53:39
waiting for the deadline for them to deal with it and I'm
53:42
still 6 months late. Yeah, well, it's often the case
53:47
they stall and obfuscate. So that's the complaint
53:52
procedure. What?
53:53
What about other people? Did Did you try going to?
53:57
I was asked this. Did you try your MP?
54:01
Yeah, I'm the counsellor, MP counsellor, You name it, I've
54:04
written it. And what happened?
54:07
No, the MP could only tell. Keep writing letters, they don't
54:12
do anything. Yeah.
54:14
Let's get passed from another pillow to post the pillar to
54:16
post. It's not until you find some
54:18
good people that don't sit back and help.
54:21
Yeah. And they're actually, this is
54:24
something we, we, we should say to the audience.
54:27
There are, there are a lot of good people out there and
54:30
there's a lot of good people who've been through the system
54:33
themselves and taught, taught themselves things and learnt
54:37
things who try really hard as whatever it is, as a as a friend
54:42
or as a Mackenzie friend. Yeah, and information is shared
54:47
amongst the the groups of mums and dads and I, I think this is
54:52
one of the most encouraging thing to see that the, you know,
54:56
the community is often a lot of people who've been through very
54:59
bad times, but there's many of them that do try and help each
55:03
other, help other people. There's a lot of people that
55:06
I've spoke to and tried to. Yeah.
55:10
Come to come to a solution and, and, and like I said, the
55:14
biggest thing mine would ever be would document everything.
55:18
Documents absolutely everything. I mean, I had looked this up in
55:24
my same ring. That's how bad I was.
55:26
I got WhatsApp message. I printed every WhatsApp message
55:29
out. Every photo that I needed I
55:32
printed out. Yeah, document, record and video
55:37
if you can. Yeah, yeah, and I mean when I
55:40
had my the new team that I but now I get them amazingly, I've
55:44
never had to do it with these never.
55:46
But these she's she said to me the first one that well, I won't
55:52
have a be recorded. I said, what do you mean you
55:56
won't be recorded? I said I come in here with a
55:58
Dicks phone and I always say, and she said well, no, I don't
56:02
want to be. And I said well, unfortunately
56:03
no, do I? When I go to work, but I don't
56:05
really have a choice because I'm doing nothing wrong.
56:07
It shouldn't matter. Yeah.
56:10
And he's also not the same. Everyone should be the world's.
56:14
Unsafe. I'm not coming in here without a
56:17
dignified simple. Christine, very recently I was
56:21
talking to a man who's been helping in a family court case
56:28
and the mum was recording all conversations with social
56:33
services when social services came under some pretty intense
56:38
pressure close to an important court case.
56:42
She got a call from the social worker where the social worker
56:45
threatened her and that was recorded.
56:49
And that went into the court and all the judge did was dismiss
56:57
that social worker from the court.
57:00
But of course, because, because, well, the question was asked of
57:06
her first of all, did did you, did you threaten?
57:11
This is what I, what I believe. And of course she said no.
57:15
And then it emerged that she'd absolutely threatened the
57:19
mother. And so she was just told she
57:23
couldn't come into that court again.
57:25
But any other member of the public who was threatening
57:28
somebody in order to what, what is the word pervert?
57:34
A legal case would get some sort of serious sentence.
57:41
You know, they might go down for a couple of weeks or something.
57:44
This I said for the inhumane treatment that me and my family
57:49
have got from them and a torture that to me that there's nowhere
57:57
to put human rights. Do you know what I mean?
58:00
You can't go to someone and say they're breaching my human
58:03
rights. I and I've tried, let me tell
58:07
you sets on the vice. I've got a very good article,
58:10
but it doesn't go anywhere. There's nowhere for it to go.
58:15
And it says on there on the sets and advice of government system
58:19
breach and human rights, but there's just nowhere this I
58:23
mean, the system is just deadlocked.
58:27
Lots of lots of good words, but not a lot of substance.
58:30
Yeah, it's all that epic. You, I'm going nowhere.
58:33
You, you get to a certain place and that's it.
58:35
You're you're in a standstill. Christine, we're coming up to
58:38
the top of the hour is how we have to say it.
58:42
You've taken us through a lot of details, but it's been really
58:44
good. And I, I think in all the things
58:49
you've told us about your experiences with social, social
58:52
services and fighting for your son to come back it, it is
58:57
encouraging that you've actually achieved that.
59:01
All of your efforts have actually achieved that and I
59:03
think it's huge credit to you. Have you got a message to other
59:10
mums and dads out there who are fighting what?
59:13
What would you say say? To them absolutely never ever
59:17
ever give up like I said in I would have thought till client
59:23
sorry the little one was until the little one was 18.
59:27
I would never drunk again to prove that they are literally
59:31
don't go backwards, don't let them drag you down.
59:34
Just try your hardest, keep strong.
59:36
Yeah, that that is brilliant. I had one mum who I kept
59:41
encouraging to fight and one day when she was a bit down she said
59:46
to me, Brian, why do you keep telling me to fight?
59:51
And I said to her, the reason I keep telling you to fight is 1.
59:55
You'd never know what will happen.
59:57
I it's all bad. But if you fighting something
1:00:01
good may happen. And the other reason is.
1:00:05
That whatever happens, nobody can ever say to you that you
1:00:09
didn't fight for your child. Actually that and actually what
1:00:14
I said, But to be fair, like I said, if I would annoy them as
1:00:18
much as they were annoying me, no, I can have that Ariel fight
1:00:23
if I was having a bad day. I'm telling you soberly.
1:00:27
What a what a great place to end on.
1:00:30
Christine, Thank. Thank you very much for that.
1:00:34
And I do hope that when the other matters have come to a
1:00:40
head and you're in a position where you can speak to me, you
1:00:44
know about the other things that have happened in your life.
1:00:47
I hope you'll do that. And, and we'll, we'll call that
1:00:51
Part 2 for the audience. But I I think some of the some
1:00:57
of our audience today, if they join us again when we put out
1:01:00
Part 2, they will be pretty astonished at what what you have
1:01:05
to say. Yeah, fabulous.
1:01:07
Thank you very much. It's like I said, I'm in here to
1:01:09
try and help other people to get a change.
1:01:12
Fantastic, Christine. Thank you very much.
1:01:15
Bye.