Latest / Follow the Leighder / What Do Disciples of Christ Believe? | Rev. Terri Hord Owens

Transcript

What Do Disciples of Christ Believe? | Rev. Terri Hord Owens · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, howdy folks, and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leader. I'm your host, Lee Larson, and joining me from Chicago today, oof, this is gonna be a good one, folks, Reverend Terry Horde Owens. welcome to the studio, Reverend. Terri Hord Owens: thanks Lee. It's so good to be with you. Thanks for having me. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely, folks. Reverend is taking time out of her very busy schedule, being the general minister and president of the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, here for both the United States and Canada. She's the first person of color and second woman to lead the denomination, and the first woman of African descent to lead a mainline denomination. She's absolutely impressive. She Reverend Horde Owens earned her bachelor's degree from Harvard. And her MDiv from the U Chicago Divinity School, where then you were the dean of students. So you have an academic background. And then you roll into 20 years of corporate, and you did incredible work leading diverse teams and data management, and then found yourself back in Christian denominational leadership. tell us a little bit about your journey, because that is absolutely impressive. It sounds like you always knew, excuse me, I just hit the microphone, sorry, gang. It sounds like, you know, just based on your Harvard and New Chicago that you you felt called to ministry in some way. You went into corporate. Now you're running now now you're you're running a denomination. Talk to us about your your journey. Terri Hord Owens: Yeah. Well actually the timeline is such that I I I started in corporate and didn't go to divinity school until I had been working for 23-7 years. So I started in corporate, discerned a call to ministry in my late thirties and went to divinity school and was still working and continued to work for a couple of years after I I was ordained and did the MDiv and then was recruited by the Divinity School to be the dean of student. So I kind of put the other leg over the fence at that point. and was, you know, a higher ed administrator for like twelve years. and during that time started to pastor. so I was a bivocational minister for many years. And being the general minister and president is actually the first time I've actually been full time in ministry. so my story is really one of having been a very active lay leader, I always taught Bible study. I did work with children and youth. I did all the things and discerned a call and decided to go to divinity school. It took me a while to actually get around to applying because I was concerned my husband had been a teacher, became a full time worship pastor, and I would joke and say, Well, one of us has to have quote unquote a real job, right? Leigh/@followtheleighder: That's funny. Terri Hord Owens: and I was really stressed about what that would mean for my family if I had to take a lower paying salary in order to become a pastor. And and God so worked it out that I had you know, financial support through Disciples Divinity House at the University of Chicago. And I kept working. And it really wasn't until I was recruited to the divinity school that I I finally had to kind of as I said, put my other leg over the fence and and take that cut and pay. But at that point I was, I think, probably emotionally and spiritually ready to do that and loved pastoring. Never thought I'd be a pastor. and started out as an interim. And this church really lobbied the region to be able to to consider me as as a a settled candidate and enjoyed, you know, eight years of ministry with them, but was still working at the Divinity School and had students who came out. So yeah, the journey is is not as direct. I'm grateful that because my in my corporate world I was high enough on the totem pole that I had a lot of control over my schedule. And it wasn't just a job. I was a senior leadership in a senior leadership role in some major companies and c had a lot of control over what I did. And so that that was a a blessing. But it was I Leigh/@followtheleighder: Nice. Terri Hord Owens: I probably have never felt more myself. there were people who came to me saying, Have you ever thought about being considered as an a nominee for the general minister and president? Which is something I never really considered. I I consider myself to have been drafted by a group of friends and colleagues who put my name in and I I allowed that. And it's it's been really the call of my life. nine years in, I have five more to go. So Leigh/@followtheleighder: Wow. Wow. Well, you're doing an amazing job, folks. she s gave the commencement speech at my master at my seminary graduation back in May. And it was very profound. And I was excited to be able to shake your hand and just get to to meet you because I know that even behind you, you have your book, Staying at the Table. And I'm excited to dive into to that book in just a second. But before we get our listeners too lost, Would you mind giving a a brief overview of disciples of Christ? What is it? Who are we? We're we're small but mighty, but some people might not know who we are. So if you could share it. Terri Hord Owens: Stop. Yep, disciples of Christ. we are in in actuality celebrating the two hundred and twenty-fifth anniversary of the revival that began this movement back in eighteen one in Cane Ridge down in Kentucky. And one of those Holy Spirit revivals, we hold the distinction of being the only American denomination that doesn't have its roots in Europe, in a Europe tradition, like the Presbyterians or the Methodists, et cetera. We are Truly an American product, came out of the Scottish Presbyterians over a something that has become defined as what we call a test of fellowship. Presbyterian ministers would have to interview you and decide if you were ready to have communion each week. And this is in a time when ministers were itinerant and they might not have had communion every week. Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone, both in their own way, sort of the thought leaders of our of our movement. felt that it was not appropriate for other human beings to stand in judgment of whether you were worthy of being at the table. And so that became one of the first pillars, if you will, of of the movement that everybody was welcome to the table. and in our tradition, not only do we not ask who you are, we don't even ask if you're baptized, we say it's a believer's meal, but we don't ask you to prove if you're a member of our church. A table is open to all. Anyone can preside. that means you don't have to be ordained or credentialed to serve the meal or to to be at the table, the way many other traditions do. But they also tried to create like their own little presbytery and finally dissolved that and with this idea that the Church of Jesus Christ is essentially one and they wanted to build an environment where beyond confession and Jesus Christ, there wouldn't be Any test of fellowship. In other words, you either say it this way or think it this way or you're not a member. That there's no creedal test that says you think like we think or you practice as we practice or you're not part of the body. They didn't want those kinds of barriers to stand between people who, for perhaps very legitimate reasons, might have differences of opinion theologically or in practice. And so we're one of the smaller. mainline denominations. We are about 3,000 congregations strong across the US and Canada. Most main most institutional denominations are smaller than they were, say 30 or 40 years ago, and that's true for us. We are about 80% white. About 10% of our congregations are black. 6 to 7% are Hispanic, and about 2 to 3% are Asian Pacific Islander. and we are by the numbers perhaps more diverse than our other denominational siblings because as a percentage we are less white than the others. We're still predominantly white, but we have a greater percentage of diversity than some of the larger denominations. So we're a product of the Midwest, a product of revival. we say we are non-credal. It's not that, you know, people use the Nicene Creed, etc. It's just that the creed isn't the the bar that says, you either believe this, say this, you sign the statement, or you're not a member. That we never carry it that far. We we really believe in this diversity of theological reflection that everybody reads and and hears from the Holy Spirit what the Bible understands. We we believe in the in the authority of scripture. not literally but as as a an authoritative document that guides guides our faith. But that test of fellowship concept I think is really, really key to understanding how we see things. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Absolutely. And for for folks listening, the non credle, the sort of all or welcome, I know and I I can I know that people are like, What? Like when they hear that. It's it's right. Terri Hord Owens: Yeah, know that we're not anti-credal. That's what I would say. We're not anti-credal. It's not that we don't embrace the creed, the Nicene Creed or versions of it. It's just that we don't say you either believe it exactly as we say it or you're not with us. We don't use it in that way. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And and again, folks, when it's this sort of openness, that doesn't necessarily mean, ooh, how do I want to say this? It's not like a you can believe whatever you want, which you can, but it's it's more like you're allowed to question whatever you want. You're allowed to wrestle, you're allowed to say, I don't actually know about this, and you're not gonna get kicked out. You're not gonna be excluded, you're not and and I think that. Terri Hord Owens: That's right. That's right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: is a part of the I I just I love disciples and talking with them like because it's so like they choose it. Like it's a it's all I I don't want to say libertarian in terms of like party, like political, but just like sort of like everyone is like live and let live. And folks, how this shows up in Disciples of Christ's humanitarian work with Week of Compassion or Helm, which is their higher education leadership ministry. what this looks like is we'll go with 10 pastors, theologians, seminarians. We just got back from the Philippines, and all like we spanned the political spectrum. We had a gin Z leftist over here, and we had very conservative black church, evangelical, and we all got to wrestle with really tough conversations because of that divide. And we didn't kick each other out. We didn't say, No, that's not like, and it was really Terri Hord Owens: Yeah. Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It's powerful to have this model, especially in the United States where everyone else is tribalizing really, really badly. And we're still providing space and it's not easy conversations. I'm not saying it was all love. I mean, there was definitely some snappiness, but then it was also we wrestled through it and we're friend. Like it's it's we also probably snapped at each other because it was the Philippines in the summer and it was very hot and humid. So that's that's that's that may have been it. But Terri Hord Owens: That's right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Very good. Leigh/@followtheleighder: But my point being is like we did get to and we did change each other. Like because the other person could speak from the heart, not from defense. And that is what is going to carry us through. And I'm very thankful. The downside about that, guys, is like kind of like how we're noticing with fundamentalism is when you do have this sort of openness to your theology, it can be hard to really get a driving movement because we're not all on the same page. But I'm fine with that. Terri Hord Owens: Yeah. Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Like I'm like I I like the freedom that Disciples of Christ brings and I'm excited to share all of that with my followers and have you on so they could hear literally from the leader's mouth like, Who and what are you? Terri Hord Owens: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I I I think what people have have discovered and and there is kind of a freedom, but it's you know, my own theology resonates so much with disciples because I just believe that God is a big God and that the the more exclusive you make God, you kind of fly in the face of who God says God is. and so i if God is a God of limitless love, then none of us get to decide who's in or who's out, or who God loves or doesn't love. And that's hard work, but that's God's work. It's not it's not like us choosing our own friends group. And and God has to be big enough. because if I if you get to decide whether or not I'm included, or if I get to decide whether or not you're included, trust me, you don't want me to be God. Because there would be a lot of people that I personally would not include. But God is just bigger. And and we are Christians. We do confess our own affirmation of faith at the beginning of our Leigh/@followtheleighder: All right. Terri Hord Owens: governing document called The Design says we confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and proclaim him Lord and Savior of the world. So we are Christians and and that's that's probably the, you know, the the rock bottom sort of do you confess that Jesus is the Christ? Do you continue to confess? we believe in the power of baptism. That and the Lord's Supper are the two We're not a sacramental church, but to those we would call those ordinances. And similar to what the Baptist church would see those as as ordinances. So I think there's a freedom. and I I think we work we play well with others too. We're we've always been very ecumenical and very interfaith, and so we're we focus on alliances that allow us to share and act on our common commitments. and not just common belief. So we can work with people of other faiths or even other denominations who let's say we're all in agreement that people should have health care. Well, regardless of what your theological perspective is, we can unite with you and work on those particular commitments. and even as we give other traditions and even other faiths the freedom Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Terri Hord Owens: to believe and and to govern themselves as they believe. But disciples outside of our church, people tend to know who we are in ecumenical spaces because we've always been there and and we're we're always the one we play well with others. and and we're known we're known for being that church. So it's it's I'm always honored to represent the disciples. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. That's so beautiful. And that's so true. when she talks about interfaith and ecumenical middle school, we were going to Fort Worth, Texas. We were going to local synagogues and temples and doing youth events with their youth and learning like, yes, we are different, but also we're the same. And you know, it goes from, wait, this is like I didn't know that to like, you skateboard too. And like that's Terri Hord Owens: That's good. Leigh/@followtheleighder: what we're trying and and and and that's like kind of the heart of it is is being able to to learn and stand in who you are while being able to again find those common commitments, find that single mission just to get across. And that really I mean that philosophy when I was in Pakistan, I mean there were a lot of things I didn't agree with going on in the rooms around me. And I was just like, but we both agree that girls education Terri Hord Owens: Sure. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Like we're just trying to get girls in schools. And like and and it really helps me to stay in my lane being in Disciples of Christ as a person out in the world 'cause then I it's it's a it's a really beautiful. Terri Hord Owens: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's you know, sometimes I'm criticized for you're doing so much work around justice. What about evangelism? Well, we live in a world where people are they are hungry not to belong to institutions, but to have spiritual lives that that matter and mean something. And i if evangelism is letting people who know who Jesus is, then this is my evangelism. I want you to know that Jesus wants you to eat, that Jesus wants you to have a job that allows you to feed your family, that Jesus wants you to live in a house that's safe and warm in the winter and cool in the summer, that Jesus wants you to have access to health care without going bankrupt, that Jesus wants your kids to have access to education that's not dependent on the zip code or the value of your home. that Jesus wants you. to flourish, that wants us all to flourish. And so when we work in society to help bring about that kind of community, to me that's I hope you can look at what I do, what we do as a church and say, well if that's what Jesus is about, then maybe I want to know more about that Jesus. Maybe I do if if I make the the barrier to learning about Jesus that you must agree with my interpretation of the Bible, I'm probably never ever going to get very far. because you Jesus fed people before he taught them, right? Jesus Jesus never put those barriers in front. And he criticized religious institutional leaders for making the every little detail or jot and tittle bigger than the idea of God's love and and relationship with God. So I I think disciples, when we can articulate it well, and when we live into that, I think that's Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Terri Hord Owens: That to me is the most profound kind of evangelism and and that's I say everything I do is evangelism, really, if you look at it that way. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That's beautiful. And that's actionable. and it's it's it's an act of Jesus. It's a active universal Christ that is showing up to bring heaven to the here and now. And there's lots of people and lots of ways that people look at the afterlife. But I know with within us that's that's something that's very now for us, very urgent. Can you Terri Hord Owens: Mm-hmm. That's right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right, right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Can you talk about we have how all of this works, you know, sort of this like diversity or this like freedom of thought. You have the book behind you, staying at the table. Let's let's talk about that. What inspired you to write this? Terri Hord Owens: There are several, I think, things kind of all coming together at once. the book came out about a year ago, and we have been going through a lot of major changes to our governance. We now have, we just had our very first inaugural digital or online general assembly. We're the only denomination that allows every single congregation to have voting representation at our highest level of decision making, which is the General Assembly. And no other denomination says that every single denomination can come and be represented. So it's a whole different vibe. We changed how the general board is structured to go from every region and every general ministry sending representatives to 50 people elected across the life of the church. So trying to expand the connections, which even though we started out as a movement. We didn't become a denomination until like 1969 because we wanted to avoid all this institutional structure. And so we created a very loose one that's still very decentralized. It's hard to, you know, I'm people joke and say I'm the disciples' pope. Well, I don't have nearly the authority that a pope or a presiding bishop in an ecclesial structure would have. That's just not how we operate. but one of the downsides of that congregational polity is it can allow you to just sort of be out there on your corner with a with chalice our logo on your door and you may not even know why. and and so trying to create greater connection across the life of the church is really what those changes were about. and and yet at the same time we're living in times where we are as Americans more polarized than we've ever been perhaps since the Civil War. I mean there there are always these you know, comparisons to what things were like politically before the Civil War. Is the United States headed to I don't think we're literally headed to another war, but we're polarized, we're divided. we are denser geographically in terms of where our congregations are in states that we would call red states, in the center of the country. we're not so big in the Northeast or in large cities. Two-thirds of our churches are in in locations that demographers would label small town or rural, two-thirds. And about two thirds of our churches, about sixty percent, worship on average sixty or less. So we're a small congregation, almost small town kind of church. we have some large about one percent of our churches worship more than two hundred people, right? So it's a very small number. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Terri Hord Owens: but we in this in this we've spoken against this idea of Christian nationalism and this notion that to conflate one's socio-political understanding with one's theology to say you can't be a good Christian unless you believe like me on these issues, and you can't be a good American unless you worship and think like me theologically. so so trying to navigate through that and and remind ourselves, you know, I'm always saying I after my first sabbatical, I was like, you know, we don't need another identity statement, we don't need another set of priorities. We just need to be who we say we are. Disciples, what we've always understood about ourselves is really true and important. And so how do we really come together and and it was like we need to stay at the table instead of peeling off a bit at a time because we disagree in in in any kind of statement that says that the church welcomes all regardless of of sexual orientation or that we support immigrants or that we believe in in healthcare or when we want to speak truth to power and critique our government for its inhumane treatment of persons. how do we all still stay together in this belief of Jesus and really allow each other to believe differently? and and I start out the book by saying that I think one of the problems that we have as mainline Christians is that we are spiritually dry and biblically illiterate. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm. Terri Hord Owens: And it causes some people to clutch their pearls. but we have a lot of churches where we think being good people is enough to be a good Christian. I'm gonna participate in the homeless shelter, we'll have a food pantry, we'll kind, we'll give money to this and that, we'll come to church, we'll sing some hymns, we'll listen to the minister's speech. I hate it when a sermon is called a speech, because it's not a speech. It's a particular theological proclamation. It's not a speech. And then we have our coffee and we go home. But if we don't understand the work that we do as being something more than just membership in this little institution that gives us a good citizen badge, right? That we are not experiencing this relationship with God in the way that Jesus prays for in John 17. Jesus says, Lord, make them one. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Terri Hord Owens: he says, Ma give them the same relationship that you and I have had, God. I and you and you and me. He actually uses that language. Jesus prays, he fasts, he knows scripture when he's challenged on things. He always has a way to ground what he's talking about in scripture. And at the same time makes the case that that's not really the whole point. It's important to understand what happens in scripture, but scripture is not something that that creates barriers for us. It's designed to give us that relationship with God so that we see what we do as a reflection of God's love being embodied through us, just like we see Jesus as this incarnation of God's love. So I start there by saying if if we don't get this understanding of who God is and this understanding of what our own spiritual practice and our own understanding of scripture We can't really do the work that God has called us to do. And we see it just as good tasks and not as the embodiment of God's love. And and if it's not that genuine spiritual work, then we could be in a number of organizations, sororities, fraternities, civic organizations, Lions Club, Junior League. you could do a lot of things and do good, but we do this because Jesus said, Your greatest. Priority is to love God and to love your neighbor. And this is how we love our neighbor. I want you to know that I do this because I'm following Jesus, not just because I think I'm a great person, but I'm I'm following Jesus. And Jesus said I need to love others as he has loved us. So that's kind of the trajectory the book takes to start out with those theological foundations of understanding what we believe about God, understanding the importance of our own spiritual practice, the importance of. of scripture, not dogmatic, you know, as you said earlier, disciples, we it's important to be able to ask those questions. I always like when I teach making space for those questions and try to force myself to look at things differently every time I preach a particular text. We learn from each other. God may say something to you, Lee, in a moment that enlightens my understanding of the text or or a view on a particular problem. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Terri Hord Owens: and then I lay out the changes that we've been going through as a church to show how I think these changes are are moving us closer towards being that vision of ourselves that we've always held as this this church that not there's not by unity we don't mean unanimity, but we do mean that by working together for the things that matter. regardless of our theological differences, we can make this really powerful witness as to who Jesus is. and so that's that's the hope of the book. And and to realize that, you know, I may not like what you say. I may not even like you or like what you think. But if God's a God of limitless love, I don't get to decide whether you're involved or not or whether you're included. that's just not how I believe Jesus wants us to order our our communities. And I have to Acknowledge that you may not like me or agree with me, but my right to be at this table is not is not arbitrated by you. God has created that. And and once we understand that, and we can't really do that work unless we have that deep inner spiritual depth and understand scripture. It's it's that spiritual depth that allows us to engage with one another in these sort of superhuman ways. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. Terri Hord Owens: Because if it's not beyond our humanity, if it's not leaning in spiritually, then all of our biases, all of our personal foibles, our quibbles are going to take over. And that's not really God's way. It's certainly not the way of Jesus. And so yeah, that that's what I hope people return to in the book. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. Well, and that's I I like that you're pairing this both with like God is bigger than any book building or body of congregation. And also for us, we need to stay at the table, keep having hard conversations, keep following Jesus. and and it's that really beautiful sort of dichotomy of like, yes, the personal Jesus and yes, the cosmic God that is big enough to hold us all. And I Terri Hord Owens: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I very much appreciate what you have done for the denomination over the years. Do you when we look at I know we talked about how small the United States membership is. I know we have some some members up in Canada. Can you share why overseas humanitarian slash mission trips is a part of disciples of Christ? and For those, like folks, y'all have watched me for a few years. You see me go to the border of Nogales, Arizona, and Mexico. You saw me go to Pakistan, you saw me go to the Philippines, you see me that was all disciples of Christ, and it was not evangelical proselytizing. I showed up and I served, I did a project where I learned. Where does that philosophy come from, Reverend? Because not a lot of churches are doing that model. Terri Hord Owens: Yeah. And I think our our philosophy, you know, if you let's let's take Puerto Rico as an example of how disciples have moved from that proselytizing model. when Puerto Rico first became a US territory, the main lines basically and I I only learned this history in my adult life, right? I never knew this before that the main lines were they kind of carved up the island and said, Okay, disciples, you have this area. Methodists, you have this area, Presbyterians, you have this area. And we did start churches. And we did, and in the churches in Puerto Rico, we have dis over a hundred disciples congregations there now. They're not part of our church organizationally, but we're still siblings. they come to our assembly, we go to theirs. The general pastor of the disciples of Christ in Puerto Rico, those those counterparts of we've always had really close relationships. So we've moved away from that sort of missionary. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Terri Hord Owens: kind of understanding to what we call accompaniment, which means that when when when you go to Puerto Rico or you go to the Philippines or Week of Compassion, when we visit partners in different countries or Colombia. Last year I was in Fiji and Hong Kong. about once a year I'm going with Global Ministries, the Week of Compassion Board has started making overseas trips to see the work of partners. We send our mission co-workers there not to preach in tents, but to listen and and learn by working alongside the people of that locale what it is they need, what are their problems as they understand them? And then how can we partner with them? And and quite often it's not like we've got teams of people. who are you know doing all the work in in the Philippines, but we will direct our resources to those organizations and ministries that our partners have told us are their priority. So we accompany them on their journey. And when we take groups of people there, it's not just to do your classic mission trimp of we're going to build a house. Quite often we're taking people so that they can see and understand what's happening on the ground. So that when we come back to the United States, we can tell the story and say, hey, we're working with these partners in this part of the world. These are this is what their needs are. And then we can help send the resources to support what they say they need, not what we say they need. So that idea of accompaniment is really important. And given our size, that kind of partnership amplifies really our influence. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Terri Hord Owens: when you go to the World Council of Churches has a network called Act Alliance. And it's all of the world global ministries, it's the counterparts to our week of compassion. when you meet with them, they know who we are because we're so good at partnering around the world and working with local ministries and local congregations. We don't go in and set up our own infrastructure somewhere. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. Yes. Terri Hord Owens: w we want to know what it is that you need. And we really have with Week of Compassion in particular, it's not just about response in the in in the immediate aftermath, right? If we have funds that we will send if there are tornadoes or wildfires or hurricanes, we will support our congregations and our partners, but we're also committing dollars in the long term for recovery and and refugee development. We're helping congregations work with refugees from various countries. And it's that partnership and accompaniment I think that makes us different. We're we're not the missionary tent revival people saying, Come to Jesus and then we'll help you. that's not what Jesus told us to do. Jesus said, Love your neighbor and and they'll come to know who I am because you've shown your love to them. So that's even though we're small, it's it's this pr philosophy of partnering with others around the world that gives us a greater reach actually. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It absolutely does. And even this is cool, y'all. I went to the Philippines and we left and the Philippine hosts were then welcoming Pakistani folks that I had worked with the summer before. And they had said something and they like somehow my name came up or something there was a picture or something. And they were like, we've worked with her before. And I mean, talk about like that's disciples, like that people know my name because of disciples' work in a foreign country. Like two, that was just a really cool Terri Hord Owens: cool. Yeah. Yes, yes, yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: thing that was all created by disciples of Christ. Terri Hord Owens: Like we we had folks in during all of the internal challenges that have been going on, say with a country like Colombia, when the FARC, which they were sort of like the internal revolutionaries, right? Very violent in one point in time. The FARC is working with the United Nations and disciples were partnering with local organizations who were working with the FARC. I participated in a meeting, a trip to Colombia. Right as I was first elected, well, we're meeting with the UN in in Colombia and then we're going to these FARC camps and and hearing how the local communities have how have helped the the kids who have been impacted by the violence that the FARC was perpetrating. But we also met with the FARC leaders to understand their frustrations and their need for justice that were leading to some of their you know, sort of very militarized violent ex expressions. And Got to talk with both sides of the table and and understand, have them see us, have them all see us, right? As people who were willing to be at the table with them and and willing to hear what they had to say and willing to work so that they had, you know, both education and mental health support. There were Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Terri Hord Owens: Faith-based organizations working for women's empowerment and women's economic development and mental health for people who are living in the aftermath of some of these really violent internal conflicts. So it it's been really awesome. So and we go and worship with them, but you won't find us necessarily just planting churches. You'll find us working with the people. And and bringing our resources to help do what they say is most important for them. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I while you were saying talking about the resources talking, you you said mentioned earlier that it's not top down, paternal sort of like we're gonna tell you how to run things because we know better. It is very much collaborative, lots of listening, lots of figuring that out, in in community. And that is one of the things that of course, Christian history in the United States, not very clean or pretty. Disciples of Christ did have an Indian boarding school type venue out in Washington. But back in the 60s, it was that sort of philosophy that allowed to deconstruct and like get in and process and give that venue, that property, that whole space back to the Yakima people. And yes. We have caused harm, but you recognize the harm and then you recognize like, okay, what is the best way for these people to have this how do we do this? And now it's first of all, folks, Yakima Valley in Washington, beautiful. Drive drove through that myself. But secondly, that is kind of what it's about. It's about collaboration and and being in community with people. And I go ahead. Terri Hord Owens: Mm-hmm. No, I was gonna say we now have the Center for Indigenous Ministries that's working on not just saying, let's let's have indigenous congregations, right? But it it's really about educating the church and then others on the very idea of what does being indigenous even mean, right? that that we have norms that are established based on this idea of Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Right. Terri Hord Owens: of what indigenous really is, but but also helping to educate the whole church on the history of of what colonialism has done in North America and and around the world. And we've done the same thing with the history of race in the United States. You know, in the 60s, we developed what is now our reconciliation ministry, did a lot of work to fund efforts to reduce poverty. and we have had as a priority for a church to be an anti-racist church, our ministers, in order to have standing. this is something I've seen i increase in the nine years that I've been in in office. it used to be that not every region would require a minister to take anti-racism training and now they all do. and so our clergy have to go through regular education and it's not just the same stuff over and over. We give grants Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Terri Hord Owens: it it's one of the things that our church has a long history with. And in this current polarized time where people are trying to downplay the ideas of diversity, equity, and inclusion and things like that, we're calling the church back to remember who we've always said we are and the work that we've been doing. And and it means that, you know, our black congregations, many of which were started as sort of mission projects of white congregations. had their own infrastructure called the National Christian Missionary Convention and merged with the white churches back in 69. we developed the network of Hispanic churches, Obre Hispana, that is now been released from a colonial structure that had them sort of reporting into another ministry. Same thing with the North American, Pacific, and Asian disciples, moving away from these very colonial models to allow for the agency of of of Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Terri Hord Owens: Peoples of in communities of color without saying you have to be like us in order to be part of us. So we're still all part of the same church, but black folks may worship differently. Hispanic people worship differently. There are lots of different issues, lots of different social and political issues that face these communities. And and it's hard to work, but I'm proud that the disciples have worked hard and made those things priority. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Terri Hord Owens: to say this is what real unity is like. It's not unanimity. And this is what being an anti-racist de to decolonize our church, right? has to be about giving groups of people agency and having just as much authority to determine their their future and function within our church and not just being driven by the historic structures of of the church. So those those are really important ideas. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm. Yeah. Terri Hord Owens: That all main lines are dealing with. And I think disciples, people look at us and say, wow, your your communities of color have agency and are organized in ways that that they're not in other denominations. And it's hard stuff. We're certainly not where we need to be, but we're at least on that path. I I'm grateful for that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, and it's it really does amazing deep work. And you just talking about that made me think about growing up in again Fort Worth, Texas, right next door to TCU, which was Bright Seminary, and other disciples like these are disciples of Christ. And then you've got the church, University Christian Church, big church. we had a female pastor at one point, Cindy Loball. We had sorry, sorry, that's Alan Loball, Cindy Twidell, Terri Hord Owens: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: You had we had a black choir director. We had an army chaplain youth pastor who was interned and assisted by a queer p youth pastor. Like my mom is a women's health gyno menopause background, and she's sitting there next to some oil dude with a big old hat, like cowboy hat. Like every it was that's what I thought everything was. And then once I graduated high school and got in the real world, I was like, it's not like this. But Terri Hord Owens: Mm-hmm. Mm. Ha ha ha. Yeah. Yeah, we have many more communities that are probably more homogenous. Let's let's put it that way. Yeah. But but that's who we say we are as a church, regardless of what we look like locally. And that's really important to me that that we do what we can to continue to build those connections so that all of those communities see a place for themselves in the church, whether their local faith community is as diverse. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely, but Terri Hord Owens: or or maybe sometimes often not as diverse as what you experienced in Fort Worth, they're still part of our church. And and that's the hard part about being at the table with people that you don't understand because you've not maybe had experiences with people who are different from you or look differently or think differently. That's the hard part. And that's why without that spiritual and biblical understanding, you if you don't see it as the way of Jesus, it it's harder for you to grasp it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, we are coming closer to the top of the hour and I want to give folks a chance. Can you share two different things? A, a little bit more about staying at the table for those who want to read more, but also for those who might be interested in disciples of Christ, where where should they go? So two of those things, please. Terri Hord Owens: Sure, sure. well, first let's talk about where you can find us. If you go to our website, disciples.org, there's actually a congregation locator. And you can put in your zip code and and we have a directory of of churches that are accessible to you and and you can find disciples of Christ. If we we have the little red chalice that looks like a it looks like an X, but it's actually St. Andrew's Cross kind of laying on its side. And if you see that cup, on signs or you see the words disciples of christ in parentheses on a church, then that's that's certainly connected to us. But go to disciples.org, you can find a brief history of who we are, what we believe, and got get a lot of good information about our 13th general ministries and we're organized into about 30 different regions. So if you live somewhere you can find out what's what's the closest congregation to you. in terms of the book, it is designed to be a study. And so many of our congregations have done it as a Bible study. I did an online book study with a group of young adults, about half of whom were in the work world, and the other half were in seminary. and so there are questions at the end of each chapter. You can get it at Chalice Press, which is our publisher. That's who published it, chalicepress.org, or it's available on all the main sites where you normally would buy your books, but it is I think a good tool for studying and some of the really good feedback I've received from it is that even I was really gratified by the seminarians and the young adults who said, this is great to talk about the things of God, right? To to talk about this idea of spiritual practice and prayer and meditation and what it means to study scripture and not just treat it as an academic subject. To talk about how I think and what I believe. And in seminary, you have to deconstruct so much. And the book encourages you to get a grip of on what it is you believe, and how we in community can can work together to learn some of those things. And so I hope that as the church as moves on for my time, my second term will be over in 2031, but I really do hope that. history will record that I cared a lot about people being able to declare what they believe about God and understand that. And that also we not as again as a dogma or a tool of of authority or control, but an under a way to understand God better by knowing scripture and and working ourselves, working through the hard parts of it together in in community and building s people who have stronger spiritual inner beings. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Terri Hord Owens: 'cause I think that's the that's what people are searching for. I have a son who's in his thirties and he's married and has a three year old and he's he he and his wife live different lives and have come of age in a different world than I did. Church is not gonna look like it did when I was growing up in the seventies or eighties. But people are still looking for God. They're still looking for spiritual depth. And I think that what I'm hearing from people who are reading the book is that the book is reminding them of some of those Leigh/@followtheleighder: Hmm. Yes. Terri Hord Owens: really important things. It's not a a template for a quick church growth strategy. Build your congregation, do these things, have these programs. That's not what the book is about. I I think it's really, you know, you want to lose weight, you eat right and exercise. I think you want to build strong faith communities. You build up spiritual lives. and that includes practice and inner being and and living it out in ways that people Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Terri Hord Owens: can see your commitment to the care of your neighbor and the care of your community. And that only comes when we have that kind of spiritual depth and and strength. So I think that's that's what I hope people get out of the book. And and that's what has blessed me so much by feedback is that people are enjoying the opportunity to even talk about those things in study. So if you're looking for a good study for your church group or whatever, I I think it would be a a valuable one for you to try. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That is so beautiful. Well, Reverend Terry Horde Owens, thank you so much for your time today. You have been just such a gift. I I would love to have you back to do a deep dive on literally anything. But but this first conversation with you has been really inspiring. And I hope, listeners, that that you feel a little bit more understanding of A, the platform that has that I have or how it's guided me. Terri Hord Owens: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: disciples and how that influences this platform. and maybe you're you're interested and wanna check it out, or maybe it just like warms your heart to know that there are quote unquote still good Christians out there in the face of some folks using the name Christianity and Christian to weaponize and harm. But Terri Hord Owens: That's right. That's right. It all it's all goes back to the limitless love of God. So thank you, Lee, for the conversation. I've enjoyed it as well. And I pray that God just continues to to bless this particular work and and all the other ways in which you're living into your ministry. It's it's great to have had this conversation and however I can support you, you just let me know. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes, ma'am. Alrighty, folks. Well, that is about the end of our of our conversation today. Let me know in the comments what you thought. don't forget to check out Disciples of Christ social media as well. And like, follow, subscribe, share. Y'all know the drill. My name is Lee Larson. This has been another episode of Follow the Leader. And until next time, see ya.