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maternity leave 411 · From 9 to Mom

• Catie: Welcome back to From Nine to Mom. Danielle: Where we discuss balancing the nine to five hustle with the beautiful chaos that we call motherhood. Catie: And today we have a very special guest, one that we've been really excited to have on. We're joined by Akiko Thayer. She is the founder of Maternity Leave 411. She's a certified lead leave management specialist, and she's helping moms and dads maximize their maternity and paternity leave, which we love. So we're gonna dive in. Thank you, Akiko, for joining us. Akiko Thayer: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Catie: And we have to start off by giving a little background on your kids. Give us their ages again. Akiko Thayer: Sure. I have two daughters, nine and twelve. one's going into seventh grade and then the other one is going into fourth grade. I never thought that I would have a seventh grader. It's just wild. In my mind, there's still babies. It just time goes so fast. The days are the days are long, but the are certainly short. but yeah, just trying to navigate summer right now. Danielle: That is the truest sentence. Catie: Yeah, that's the d you don't realize that till you become a parent and you hit some of those milestones. So what are what are your guys' summer plans? What's everyone have? Camps? Akiko Thayer: goodness. my older one, she is in a summer camp, which is like two four-week sessions, which is wonderful because you don't, it's like four, I don't have to worry about it, you know, pretty much for eight weeks. So she's covered for the for all of summer and she's doing a summer camp with her friends. ⁓ my younger one, however, it's like every week, it's a different camp. It starts different times, ends different times. So it's just kind of trying to navigate. Danielle: Yeah. Catie: Yeah. Excellent. Thanks. Akiko Thayer: how to how to get one kid there and back and and trying to figure out the carpool. Summer is summer is no joke. There's a there's a lot of Ubering going on. Danielle: And it's truly the like we are in that phase right now because I have the three and seven and the seven year old is in a different camp every week. last year I'll never forget it. I have a spreadsheet with t times like where we're going for everyone in my family because it's a village situation in my house. And last year, I don't remember this, Katie. Two times last summer, I sent people to the wrong camp. I had flip flopped the camps and didn't change it on the spreadsheet. So That happened to me, so I totally understand what you're going through right now, and I apologize that you have to do that. But some are short. Akiko Thayer: Yeah. I know. So yes, I know. ⁓ as much as I I love summer and spending time also of me, school can't happen. School can't start soon enough. ⁓ I'm in week three. ⁓ Catie: Yeah, right. Danielle: Well that kind of transitions, you know, it kind of transitions us back into what we're gonna talk about today because I feel like maternity leave was one of those things where you're not ready to go back, but at the same time you are ready for that routine. And I I to get into, you know, exactly what it is you do and how you landed there through your own journey. Akiko Thayer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure. so I'm the founder of Maternity Leave 411. I help parents navigate the parental leave rights because it is very confusing to to navigate the system. And so what I do is help parents or employees basically figure out what how long of a maternity or paternity leave they can take, how long their job will be protected for, how long can receive pay. ⁓ ⁓ from what source and then really just kind of make that process a lot easier for them because there's no really no ⁓ provided help that that you can get. You can, you know, find resources online, but a lot of them are just it's as if you're reading a completely different language. And so, you know, there's really no other time in someone's career that's you know more important to take time off than having a baby. And so ⁓ Danielle: Yeah. Akiko Thayer: And it and it's a shame because so often do I see people going back to work much earlier than they have to because they just simply didn't know, you know, that they can take more time. And so that's what I do. I help parents navigate that process, really protect that time that they have at home with their babies. Catie: And so I feel like it kind of leads us in because Danielle and I had multiple questions, but will you start with how did you kind of get into this? Like how did you determine like this is something I'm passionate about? I want to start a business doing this. Akiko Thayer: Yeah. So my it's funny enough, my background is in public relations. I was in public relations for quite some time. And then when I had my first daughter in 2014 and went out on maternity leave, my employer at the time just completely shortchanged and botched my maternity leave. I think by like eight weeks or something like that. you know, I'm I'm super tight bay. I'll research the hell out of something. And ⁓ The the my the return to work date that they kept telling me was not in line with what my understanding was. despite going back and forth, they're like, no, we're HR, we know what we're talking about, you have to come back on this date. It got so bad that I had to consult an attorney, and sure enough, I was right. And know, HR corrected themselves. They, you know, kind of, I don't know if they ever apologized or really understood why they made that mistake, but nonetheless, they're like, Okay, we're sorry, you're right. And at that moment I just really realized that, you know, I couldn't be the only ⁓ is going through something like this. You know, I think I'm I'm an educated adult. I I do my research and you know, and and I it just really hard to navigate that process. And so I in ⁓ that time, started to kind of this is when, you know, blogging and stuff like that was was was. was popular and I just started kind of blogging about my experience with what I knew about how to navigate maternity leave, the different laws available. And for whatever reason, that blog somehow kind of went viral. from blog, ⁓ I started like a Facebook group where I was just helping parents navigate that process. And it was wonderful because other parents who also might, you know, ⁓ knew about maternity leave We're also chiming in and helping others. And then around that time, that's when I realized, wow, I think I can, you know, kind of make a business out of it. and and I there's different organizations that credentials ⁓ for people in this space. And so I went back and I got my credential ⁓ as a certified leave management specialist, and then I officially started this business, this work, when my second daughter was born in 2016. So I was doing a lot of the work in twenty fifteen, but officially started my business in twenty sixteen. Catie: Amazing because it is seen it it's so hard because it's almost like you have to go through it, but it's so cool to hear about how people join in on that stuff. Like moms and dads are craving like hearing other people's experience so that they can know the questions to ask. They know like people, you just really don't know until sometimes after it's well over. And someone's like, You should have got a second opinion, you should have done that. Akiko Thayer: Yeah. Yeah. Horrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Catie: I think it really comes in so now that you've been doing this for so long, why do you think this whole process is so complicated? Akiko Thayer: Good question. It's complicated because there are so many factors at play. When you try, it's it's really like a puzzle piece. When you navigate maternity leave or parental leave, you there are laws at play, a federal law called the Family and Medical Leave Act, known as FMLA. There's state ⁓ laws. So some states have their own statutory leave laws. And then there's Danielle: ⁓ stop you. Akiko Thayer: ⁓ state paid benefits, there's employer paid benefits, there's all these different puzzle pieces that you have to put together. And all of those components that I just mentioned, the laws, the state pay, employer policies, all of those also come with its own rules and eligibility. So it's like you have to, there's like five different components that you have to research, five different components that you have to figure out whether or not you're eligible for. And ⁓ putting them all together in a puzzle piece. That's what makes it so difficult. And there just isn't a there isn't a federal paid leave program. So the government doesn't provide kind of a blanket amount of time off for parents. They don't provide pay for parents. So you're really, you know, the individuals really, the burden is on us to just kind of do that on our own. you know, also I think the other wrinkle in this is that HR. Most well, I don't want to say most of the time. HR not always helpful. They, you know, are kind of there. HR, you know, they're there to they're to help the employer, right? Not necessarily to help maximize someone's maternity leave. So, you know, a lot of ⁓ Danielle: Well, and I want to ask you this question because we I've worked for corporate and managed HR. I've worked for small business and been thrown into HR. And I feel like in my experience too, HR, as you said, depending on the size of the company, the person who's doing HR could be a college graduate who just got out of their program, who has never like they were not trained at all, they were trained in hiring. firing and like negotiating crisis management. Yeah. Not at I I mean, even I think back to all the experience I had. Maternity leave was either something that was managed by a high level corporate entity, which like you said, they have their they're following their script, or you get into small business and I have a personal experience where you don't know. So you rely on an HR company that you've hired out and they're giving you information. But if you COVID really messed Catie: Crisis management, yeah. Akiko Thayer: You know. Mm-hmm. Danielle: Didn't mess this up, but it made it even more challenging because you're an organization in a state, but your employees are in a different state and pay into a different paid leave. Like, and if we could have, even as an employer or an employee, a person who managed that one in I would pay for somebody to have that at our company to like be able to make sure we do right by them because sometimes it's not even that you're doing wrong. or not doing right on purpose. It's like you don't know what you don't know. Like what a value add. So do you ever work with corporations too to help them? Okay. Akiko Thayer: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. I do. I do. I also help with corporations to help them. I basically, you know, get hired a consultant in-house leave administrator. And you're absolutely right. You know, a a company can have employees in different states. And so within one company, you know, there could be ⁓ so many different types of leave that you're providing. It's it's certainly not a one size fits all approach. Every employee the the way that their leave is administered, the way that their leave looks like can be totally different from across the board. but you know I think going back to HR, I don't think it's anything malicious, you know, I I think that when ⁓ you HR, they're kind of, you know, generalists, right? They they do a they They recruit, they hire, they onboard, they do benefits, things like that. But leave management is is really it's really should be its own of discipline within an organization. There's so many, you know, facets involved in that process. And so you can't, it's it would be kind of unfair, right, for someone to you to to expect an HR person to to know. ⁓ very the nuances of ⁓ federal laws, each state law that might be applicable to them, the state benefits that might be applicable to them. I mean, that would just be like, you know, five full-time jobs. And so I think that's where we run into so many issues is that, you know, HRs, you know, the they they might most of the time, ⁓ you they just don't know what they don't know. And so they kind of provide kind of canned language, which essentially really just Catie: Yeah. Akiko Thayer: you know, the the the the employee lose out on leave that they would have otherwise be entitled to. Danielle: Yeah. Catie: And I think too, so Danielle and I coming from like small business backgrounds, I always tried, I'm like, ⁓ I should think about like how it was for me. But when I both of my pregnancies, Danielle handled my maternity leave. was our HR at the time for both of mine. So it was not it was a different experience, I think. But I guess to that point. So, ⁓ know, smaller company, how often is someone actually getting pregnant that needs to go on leave? I think before Danielle: after I went through it, so I just wanted to make sure it was as seamless as possible. Akiko Thayer: Yeah. Catie: It was like there it was just so rare at that point. There was only, you know, there's only seven women at the whole company and depending where we're at. So it is that. But going back I'm thinking back to like, you know, that first moment you have to have that conversation and you tell HR that you're pregnant and you want to start thinking about that. First of all, when should you start thinking about your leave? Akiko Thayer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Good question. I think one of the big things that I always try to advocate is that you should don't be shy to tell your employer that you are pregnant. I think that, you know, and at the end of the day, of course, tell your employer, you know, let the cat out of the bag when you when you're comfortable, right? Because that's your Catie: Mm-hmm. Akiko Thayer: That's your information to keep to yourself. and and be re in in and you can share it whenever you want. But is ⁓ a to sometimes telling your employer that you're pregnant earlier than later. you know, I think when I I remember when I was pregnant, first pregnant, there was a lot of chatter about like, don't tell your employer that you're pregnant until you hit the second trimester, which is fair. You know, things are a little bit more secure for lack of better words by that second sem ⁓ by that second trimester. ⁓ But Once you tell your employer that you are pregnant, you're you are in a protected class of employees. And so, say for instance, you know, you are having a rough first trimester you have to take off work because of whether it be morning sickness or I don't know, you have a lot of doctor's appointments because you're high risk pregnancy. If you don't tell your employer ⁓ You know, if if they didn't know that you were pregnant, any time that you kind of snuck away and took, you know, time off or maybe, you know, PTO, they can be, you know, can be kind of thinking about, you know, docking pay or ⁓ you on a performance improvement plan. But if they knew that you were pregnant, they can't retaliate against you. You are protected. And so that's why it's really important to not shy, not be afraid to tell people that you are. To tell your employer that you're pregnant. but then in it, you know, going back to your question, when should you or what should you be, you when you into your first meeting, what what should you expect or what should you do? ⁓ I think thing there is don't expect your HR to tell you ⁓ all of information. Don't expect HR to be 100% accurate in their What I think is so important is do your research even before you have. that conversation with your employer. You're in a much better place if you go into that meeting telling your employer what you are entitled to by law, what you are entitled to by pay versus having HR tell you. And so really at that point, you know, is power. ⁓ if you go in there, know, you know, in and showing HR that you know your stuff, ⁓ just think that whole experience of navigating leave just makes it that much more harmonious. You know, and again I hope that there's no HR people out there that are trying to shortchange anyone's maternity leave. You know, but because there are so many factors at play, I do think this is the you know, an opportunity where it's really important for employees to go in kind of with with their best foot forward. Danielle: Yeah. Catie: Okay. Danielle: Now, one of the things I feel like that was constantly a question for me or for my friends, and you mentioned this, you don't know what's available to you, go in prepared. So some companies have short-term disability plans, then there's paid family leave. Can you decipher between short-term disability, paid family leave, how much of paid family leave can you actually use the baby or a year later? Can you just clarify that a little? Akiko Thayer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So th and this is what's also hard, right? Like again, going back to how leave is not one size fits all. Because with this and I and I think the question, Danielle, that you're asking is, you know, with is specific to to state pay. So ev there's no federal paid leave policy. That would make it extremely easy, right? But there's no such thing. And so ⁓ so because of that, you every state Catie: Mm-hmm. Danielle: Yeah, okay, true. Very true. Akiko Thayer: might have their own statutory disability benefit, have their own statutory paid family leave benefit. right now there are states plus DC that have that offer statutory paid paid leave benefits. But every state they have their own duration, ⁓ they have their own requirements, the rules are all different. And so that's why it's before you have these conversations with HR, You need to go and research what your state leave policies or state leave benefits are. How long, how much does it provide pay? Because all of that is wildly different. So, for instance, in California, I am, we have state disability, which provides up to 52 weeks of plus eight weeks of paid family leave for baby bonding. And in California, the rate of pay of wage replacement is around 70 to 90%. Now let's take New York, for instance. New York has a disability policy. I believe it's 26 weeks, but the is much, much smaller. I think it's, think the the the max rate is maybe somewhere in the ⁓ low 200s. And and so ⁓ and who can live, Who can live off of that? Danielle: I checked it was. Insane. Catie: Yeah. Akiko Thayer: And so because of that, I it's just really important to make sure that you know what your state provides and and that whether or not you'd be eligible. you know, and I think this also speaks volumes to to making sure, kind of pushing that agenda forward of of getting a federal paid leave policy. Because, you know, and I think that's a pretty bipartisan, you know, want, right? Regardless of which which side you're you're on. ⁓ Catie: Yeah. Akiko Thayer: Who wouldn't want, you know, a federal paid leave policy? It'll certainly make things a lot easier for parents and families. Danielle: Yeah, I think when you look at it from that rate, we're all parents, right? Whether that's and it's really difficult sometimes with different companies too. And that's why you mentioned you tell the employer, you know, when you feel comfortable, but the sooner the better. of me is now wondering, do people ever hire you be when they're trying to get pregnant or thinking about it? Because what company you choose, like if you're in the middle of a job, change how long you've been there. Or like I think of some of the banks out here. Catie: It is. Danielle: Men get six months paternal leave, right, as well. And they can use it after. had friends who've done six months of their own and then six months of the parent. Like, do people ever work with you b while they're thinking about getting pregnant or trying to get pregnant? Akiko Thayer: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I love that. You know, I think it's great when people are really planning in advance because, yeah, because ⁓ it it it all goes into their financial picture, right? When you are starting a family, there's you know, there's a f there's finance at play too. And depending on what you be eligible for pay, well might certainly, you know, it could dictate when someone could get pregnant, ⁓ at what point in the year should they have a baby, things like that. So I think, yeah, so I think that's that's really important. And and I have had, I've several conversations with people that are just in the trying phase. ⁓ And know, just so that they know what to what to what to what to look for, what to expect, and just plan. ⁓ It's such it's such a an important time someone's life. You know, I think planning really comes into play in all areas ⁓ when when you're a baby. Catie: Yeah. And and I think it's so cool too to like talk to you about these resources that are available because I feel like a lot of people that, you know, I was one of the first people in my friend group that got pregnant. let me I I wasn't thinking about maternity leave. whatsoever. I was like, I just hope I can get pregnant. I hope that this is, you know, this is where it's gonna go. then, you know, I have teacher friends that are like, well, I only want to try to get pregnant during this time because then I can line it up perfectly to summer. And and that there is so much that goes into it planning wise, ⁓ this. But what do you think is like the most common mistake like either, you know, parents are making when it comes to maternity leave? Akiko Thayer: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think the most common mistake is is is is confusing protection and paid benefits. So when I try to explain the complexities of taking maternity it really under two major components. Number one, how your job is protected. And that's done through ⁓ federal FMLA and also state laws. And that's one component. The second component is how you're gonna get paid during this time off because the laws, FMLA and state leave laws, unpaid laws. So you need to figure out how to pay yourself while you're out on job protective leave. And so, and in both of those systems, the both components, job leave laws, paid leave, those are it's totally two separate beasts. They have their own eligibility, own requirements, et cetera. And so making sure that you understand both. Is is really important because so many times I've had conversations with someone who just assume that just because they might be eligible for a state paid leave benefit, their job is also protected. That's not the case. There are some state paid benefits that also provide job protection, but not all do. And so you have to think about both in tandem in order to make sure that you have a solid leave plan. Catie: So I'm curious when you start working with an indiv you know, individual couple, whatever it looks like, obviously you look at state first, then employer pieces, like how many components are you looking at for somebody? ⁓ Akiko Thayer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ usually number one, you know, what what are all the leave laws that they're eligible for? So are they eligible for the federal FMLA? Are they eligible for state specific leave law? Then from there I'll look at what paid state paid benefits they might be eligible for. And then finally, if their employer has a paid leave benefit. Some employers, as a as a perk, as a benefit to their employees, might provide, you know, a paid maternity or paid parental leave plan. Danielle: It's one of the Yep, yep. Akiko Thayer: And so those are the type of, those are the three main components that I'll look at. And as long as you have a good understanding of those three main components, typically will lead to a good understanding, a good general picture of what someone's maternity leave can look like. And again, it it in you know, two people the same company could have different leave durations, leave details, leave pictures, because you know, there's so many factors at play. Danielle: It's what? Akiko Thayer: you know, with that you two ⁓ two can have totally different leaves because it depends on how long someone might have been at the company for, how many hours that some you know that individual works, how they had their babies, whether it be a vaginal delivery or C-section. Also like what type of ⁓ parent might be. Are they a birthing mother? Are they a mother that b their baby via surrogacy, things like that. All of that comes into play. making different leave scenarios for for each individual. ⁓ Danielle: Everyone's is truly unique. Now, if your this might not be a blanket statement, but if your employer does offer an additional benefit, do you then usually forfeit state benefits or do they work hand in hand? Akiko Thayer: Typically hand in hand, but again, this is where it really comes down to the fine print. Every employer does things differently. I would say most employers' paid benefits, they work in tandem with the state. And so for instance, like in California, let's let's say you know someone gets 70% of pay from the state, their employer might top up the additional 30% to get them up to 100. So that's one example. But not all employers operate like that. Some employers might think it's easier for them to just pay out their employee a hundred percent pay for however many weeks and not have the that individual, you know, tap into state pay because it's just easier for the employer to just, you know, pay them 100% like they normally do. So it really just depends, you know, and and I think and ⁓ you that that also becomes an issue too, because if an employer is not clear on how they are administering their leave. So often do I get situations where, you know, an employee, a client might were told by someone, don't worry, we'll pay you 100% for say six weeks and you don't have to worry about anything. But when push came to shove, they actually had to file that state benefit. And so, you know, so they were in the situation where they had a pay in gap because their employer thought that they had been receiving money from the state. And so to be, you know, to to know exactly ⁓ Catie: Yeah. Akiko Thayer: how the policy works, getting clear communication on how that policy works will certainly make things of a headache, you know, for both employee and the employer. Catie: and I think something that people underestimate is the like paternity leave too for for dads, partners, type of thing. how do you usually go about those or what do you see being ⁓ not fully for ⁓ Akiko Thayer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So with dads too, I think, you know, and and just partners, I think the common misconception is that there's no law or entitlement to them. ⁓ but that's not true. You know, dads and partners may be eligible for job protective leave, whether under the federal FMLA or a state specific leave law. and so yeah, I think it's important for partners and dads to also look into that as well. I think the other big thing that I that I also when it comes to for partners and dads to take time off, that I always like to kind of, you know, is like we need to stop, we need to normalize dads and partners also taking time off. You know, it's not it's you know, it shouldn't just be about the push shouldn't just be about moms taking maternity leave or taking time off, but they're partners. The dads should also be doing that as well. Danielle: Yeah. Akiko Thayer: ⁓ because really, you know, there's there's so much stud, there's there's a lot of studies and data that suggests that when the partner takes also takes time off, increases, you know, the the better mental health, you know, for the mother. It a better relationship between mom and partner. It also increases better like childhood relationship. And so it really it's not necessarily a perk. you know, that that partner should do. It really ben it's more of like a longstanding, you know, family benefit, you know, when when when the non-birthing parent, whether it be the dad or the partner, also takes time off. I mean, I think there's I think there's so there's so much you know data in that. And you know, I think we we need to just, you know, not make it just about the moms, but make it a family situation. Catie: Yeah. Danielle, how long did Jordan take off? Danielle: He got two weeks. That was it. And Catie: That's what Ryan did too. What did you experience? Akiko Thayer: Yeah. for my ⁓ my husband was I I believe took two weeks and then for my second he he took three weeks. So that was nice. You know, it was because doing it alone is hard. Catie: Three. Yeah. Danielle: The speech Catie: It's Danielle: Well, and you I never even thought about the emotional component of it, like for the mom. But Jordan's company has since added additional weeks to that time off. So kudos to them. Well, think about two things. Like these the psychological, like emotional connection you spend you're so exhausted, right? After the two weeks. Your your spouse goes back to work. You're not fully healed. They're exhausted too, because they're still waking up in in the evening, but Akiko Thayer: Mm-hmm. Danielle: You're always like, How are you tired? Like I I'm breastfeeding and pumping and all the and then you get to leave. And the long-term effects of that, right? Like when we all go back to work, if we decide to do so, like you go back so much more ready. I would feel like it would I would be so much more ready and there would be a rhythm. You don't you never get into a rhythm after two weeks. It feels like nothing ever happened. Like you went left the hospital and then they went back to work. And then I think about Catie: Yeah. Akiko Thayer: Mm-hmm. Catie: Yeah. Akiko Thayer: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Danielle: the other countries or the companies who give six months. And imagine if we had the support that they had when they got to go back to work. They had a full time person home taking care of that child. We go back to work and all of a sudden we're expected to go back to work a hundred percent the same people are already judging whether we like it or not. They're already judging how we come back to work. And then they're saying, but you still have to do all the things you did before without any additional support at home. God speed. Akiko Thayer: Yeah. Catie: Yeah. Akiko Thayer: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Danielle: Like Catie: I love how fired up you're getting. It's so great. Danielle: 'Cause I am. I feel like it would be how cool would it be to know that they're with their dad or their like if d like the their mom, whoever it is. Akiko Thayer: Yeah. Catie: I will say it's and I don't know how you guys felt too. Like I do feel like the second time around I was I had my kids at two different parts of the year. So my first one was and my husband's a teacher. So like that played into our aspects a lot. And the first time we had a little trouble getting pregnant. It was just like, Yes, we're pregnant, who cares about the time? So I had him in September, right when my husband started school. He was there for a week. I had the baby. He took two weeks off. He was back. Akiko Thayer: Hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. ⁓ man. Catie: That one I feel like your first kid, it's so hard. You have no idea what you're doing. Second time around, I it w we had my second at the end of May and where I am in upstate New York, our school goes through the end of June. So he took off, you know, I think he actually got three weeks because I had a C section. There was an I think he got an extra week. And thank goodness. But then after that, I was like, get out of the house, you take the Akiko Thayer: Yeah. Catie: Take the older one, get out of the house. I just want to sit here and have baby snuggles. I don't get out. Akiko Thayer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's great because then it was like on your terms, right? It was like you felt like in control of the situation. You know, it's it's you know, I I think I think not many people talk about it, but like you know, the first couple of weeks of being home with a baby, it it's it's scary. It's like, you know, this it it's you can read all the books that you want, but it's like, you know, my God, I have to I have to now keep this baby alive thriving, you know, and it's a lot of pressure. And so to to have to do that on your own. Catie: Yeah. Yeah. Akiko Thayer: I think is so difficult, you know, and so someone else there, you know, to be able to help you with that process and then to the luxury to say, Okay, thanks, you've been here long enough, now go. ⁓ right. ⁓ Right. Catie: Yeah. Right. That you're right. That is like a luxury to have. Yes. It is is so true though. You think about, you know, when you ⁓ know the situations and especially when you're already there, you have the baby. You don't want to be worried about your your leave and signing paperwork and like you gotta have a plan. How do you help people prepare for ⁓ know, some moms are like, I'm gonna work right up till ⁓ Akiko Thayer: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Catie: I'm my water breaks or that like how do you talk them through in preparation to go on leave? Akiko Thayer: Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll making that the impl that the mom knows exactly ⁓ what know, what their options are, you know. there are some states that allow you to start your leave prior to birth. and and so knowing those options are and then whether or not they choose to do so, But at least you know and then you can make those decisions on your own. But I think from a planning perspective, just making sure everything is in writing, I think is really important. So often, know, an employee or a client might get blindsided, you know, by by their employer. An employer might have told them in kind of in passing verbally, ⁓ you can take, you know, however, nine months of leave or what have you. But then when push came to shove, they they they they they went back on their word. ⁓ you know, at the end of the day, it's hard because at the end of the day, you know, if you have least you have the laws to protect you and you have the laws to dictate how long of a leave you're legally entitled to take. But if your employer's benefit or employer's leave policy provides longer leave duration than the what than what the law provides, an employer can do that. There's nothing in the laws that says an employer can't provide a longer leave duration. But this is where we get into a lot of trouble. If an employer, if one HR person said, ⁓ you know, ⁓ tell don't don't tell so and so, but you can take, you know ⁓ Danielle: Okay. Akiko Thayer: nine months and you know come back, you know, when you're fully refreshed, but then if that didn't happen, you know, that's you don't want to be blindsided by that, you know, by by that sort of experience. And so making sure that you get in writing, even if there isn't an employer leave policy, even if your law, even if your leave is dictated just by the laws, getting in writing, I think, is really important. It's going to make a clear path of communication, but also it's going to protect you in the long Catie: Yeah. Danielle: Well. Catie: Yeah. Danielle: Now we discussed like you said, people can take off a week before. If someone were to go on bed rest or something to that nature, does that cut into their maternity time usually? Akiko Thayer: It yeah, it it c it can, it can. talking about federal, let's you know, because there's so many leave laws or so many states at play, let's just talk about baseline federal FMLA. The FMLA gives you 12 weeks of job protective leave. And you can take those 12 weeks of job protective leave if you are disabled by pregnancy, so pre-birth, while you are recovering from childbirth, and you can take time for baby bond. Danielle: Yeah. Akiko Thayer: But with the federal FMLA, it's a blanket 12 weeks. And so if you are, know, have go on bed rest five weeks before birth, that's cutting into that. So by the time you, if you took five weeks before birth, by the time you have your baby, what you only have seven weeks of of remaining to you. And that's just certainly not enough time to recover and be ready to go back to work. I think ⁓ another really thing is, you know. Beyond the baseline federal FMLA, and of course, there's state laws that might provide longer leave durations than the federal FMLA. But again, like I said, not all states have state leave laws. So, but going back to the federal FMA, beyond the federal FMLA, there is another federal law called the Pregnant Workers' Fairness Act that not many people know about. the Pregnant Workers' Fairness Act or the PWFA. ⁓ What it essentially provides is it requires an employer to provide accommodations or changes to someone's work, work environment, or position when they when the employee is has a pregnancy or childbirth limitation or some sort of complication. And what the reason why this is important is because, you know, let's go back to a bed rest situation. Let's say someone was on bed rest 12 weeks before childbirth. When they have their baby, they're they're gonna expire all 12 weeks of their federal FMLA, but they're not gonna be thrown back into work. At that point, if they've exhausted their federal FMLA rights, what they can do is seek an accommodation request under the Pregnant Workers' Fairness Act, and they can get additional job protected disability, disability leave under that second Pregnant Workers' Fairness Act. And so, you know, at the end of the day, these laws are there to protect employees. ⁓ that's what the law is there for. And it's just a matter of making sure that you know about these laws so that you can exercise them. you know, and here's a that's another great example where not, you know, because it's not a commonly utilized you know, HR might not be forthcoming to talk to you about those laws. ⁓ and know, and then you end up having hearing of where someone had to go back to work, you know, three weeks post-birth, and and that's just Danielle: Which is insane. And do you help people write like with your business? seen the back end stages where you're submitting numbers and trying to figure that out or doing the accommodations post. Do you help people write that so that they get the most out of the things available? Akiko Thayer: That's just insane. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because I think and you bring up a really good point because, you know, there ⁓ say even in our conversation today, I use the word maternity leave, paternity leave, you know, ⁓ at the end of the day, those are just colloquial terms. There's actually no such thing as maternity leave, paternity leave. What so when when you are having conversations, when you are drafting emails or correspondent, it's really important to actually ⁓ cite actual Danielle: Mm-hmm. Akiko Thayer: job protective leave accommodation or or entitlement that you want to take. So I always, you know, when I draft some draft an email for a client of mine, I don't, I'm not saying, you know, I'm not in my email, I'm not saying I am requesting to take maternity leave. It's I am requesting to take pregnancy related disability leave, starting on X date. If I'm writing an email for a father, it's I'm not, I can I take paternity leave. No, can I take bonding leave under the federal FMLA. And so making sure that you are referencing those laws and in the actual legal terminology is is really important. Because at, you know, if someone said, if an employee said to to their a parent said to their employer, I want to take maternity leave, their the employee could simply say, ⁓ we don't have maternity leave. Because that's also true, right? Because there's no such thing as maternity leave. ⁓ And that's why it's important to to to s to cite the actual correct terminology. Catie: Right. Danielle: Yeah. Catie: Yeah, that is important to think about because we have just adopted those terms. So if you had to up, give your most, you know, important advice, what would that be? Akiko Thayer: Mm-hmm. Research, research, research. I guess two things. Research, research, research, and advocate for yourself. Because at the end of the day, you are gonna be your own champion and you the needs to know what they are entitled to. Don't rely on someone else telling you ⁓ what entitled to, whether it be HR or even a friend, right? Because what like we discussed, your friend getting 18 weeks of maternity might not be the case for you. And so knowing what you are entitled to, that's gonna be number one. And then also advocate, you know, if if you do your research and then HR comes back to you and says, nope, sorry, you don't you don't have that. You only have, you know, X amount of weeks. You have to come back to work on this date. You know, advocate for yourself. Know that these laws are there to protect you and don't afraid to push back on your employer. ⁓ if especially if you know what you especially if you know you are right, you know. ⁓ HR are they're just human beings as well, right? And so they can make mistakes. And so advocacy is is another important element in the in the conversation. Danielle: Yeah. Catie: Yeah. Go ahead. Danielle: gonna ask one more thing about that because I want your opinion. Obviously everyone AI now and everyone and goes to AI to ask questions. Why or why not AI or chat GPT to help you along this journey? At what point should you stop ⁓ go to a professional? Akiko Thayer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's a really good question. Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, AI is so is so relevant here. I think AI is really good at providing the the general over overarching facts of laws. So, you know, if you were to ask, you know, Chat GPT whatever AI, I live in state, ⁓ what are the laws that I'm eligible for? And I'm sure AI can provide the information that you need. But kind of it. Because at the end of the day, once have your baby, ⁓ once once have ⁓ don't know, post-birth complications, there are so many variables in the leave process that can happen during leave that impact the of these It's not and dry. And so Catie: Right. Akiko Thayer: So I think, you know, while it can provide baseline information, at the end of the day, it's not gonna provide, you know, that that customized, level of detail. and you know, and I've you know, and and I I think I've had situations where, you know, some a client of mine has said, I asked Chat GPT this and this is where they told me. I'm like, well, that's not actually all that true, because it all comes down to the nuances. Catie: For sure. Danielle: That makes total sense. And I think that's such a big piece. Like to pull like just from experience and listening to you talk, like ChatGPT like isn't and you have to understand what it's saying too. And I don't always like if when it comes to things that you're not a professional in, interpretation and understanding what it's actually saying are two different things than having a fact. So I would just say, like, if had the option to if I knew people like you out there existed when I was having babies or when my friends were having babies, I would Akiko Thayer: Yeah. Danielle: 1000% suggested that over just ch Chat GPT. It's a great place to start, but I feel like gosh, what a value add to be able to like say, Here's all my pieces of the puzzle. I don't have any brain space left for this. Help me. Make sure I get the most time, the most money, the most time, and the best benefits to when you're having a baby. Like Catie: Yeah. Akiko Thayer: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah, it's a great tool, but not something that, you know, you should fully rely on. Catie: All right. Well, I feel like we could keep talking forever, but where can our listeners find you, get your help? How do you want them to contact you? Cause I'm sure someone now knows that there are experts like you out there. Akiko Thayer: Yeah. on my website on maternity411.com, there is a contact page and that's probably the best way to get in contact. ⁓ I'm on Instagram at maternity leave four one one. and ⁓ that's you know, I'll do a lot of videos on kind of best tips and tricks on how to navigate the maternity leave paternity process. And so those are the two places they can find me. Catie: Yay. And we'll have everything linked in the notes here. But thank you so much for coming on. This was such a good conversation and really, really important, I think, for people to listen to. Akiko Thayer: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's so important. And, you know, like I said, it's just there's no better time to take time off from work when you're having a baby. And so might as well maximize that time off. Danielle: Amazing. Thank you again. Catie: Well we appreciate it. see you all next time.