Latest / Kids Ministry Calling with Jana Magruder / 67. 5 Ways to Keep the Gospel Centered in Kids Ministry with Aaron Wilson

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67. 5 Ways to Keep the Gospel Centered in Kids Ministry with Aaron Wilson · Kids Ministry Calling with Jana Magruder

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Are you dedicated to working with kids and families in the local church?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: Well, clearly that's more than a career, that's a calling.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Dana Magruder and this is Kids Ministry Calling.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: What if the most important thing we teach kids is the one thing we're most tempted to assume they already know.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_03: In kids' ministry, it's easy to focus on stories, activities, and even behavior.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_03: But at the center of it all is something far more important.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: Gospel.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: Today I'm joined by Erin Wilson, team leader for the Gospel Project for Kids at LifeWay, for a conversation that brings us back to what matters most.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: Erin helps us clearly define what the Gospel is, why it must be consistently defined, and how every Bible story ultimately points to Jesus.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: We also talk about the pressure ministry leaders often feel to perform.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: And Aaron offers a powerful reminder that our words isn't founded in what we produced, but it truly belongs to in Christ.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: And along the way, you'll hear Aaron's personal calling story how God faithfully led him into this work and continues to shape his heart for the next generation.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: If you want to cultivate a ministry that's truly gospel-centered, this conversation is for you.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: Let's jump in.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, hello, everybody.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: I am so excited to um introduce you to someone who is brand new on the show, but not brand new to Lifeway Kids or LifeWay in general.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: I have with me Aaron Wilson, who is our uh gospel project team leader.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: So if you are familiar with the gospel project, Aaron is the leader of all of the kids' ministry publishing for that um curriculum, which is such a beloved curriculum.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, Aaron, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: You're welcome.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: My pleasure to be here.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: You uh have such an amazing team, and you guys work on so many things because the gospel project is a full suite of products that make up this amazing curriculum.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but at the heart of it is the gospel.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so today I really want to talk to you.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's no one better, really, to talk about this concept of keeping the main thing the main thing.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that's kind of a popular slogan that I hear kind of in the business world, um, sometimes the church world, but um, just something that captures that we need to keep our focus on the right thing.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so in children's ministry and in ministry in general, um, that is the gospel.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so I've asked Aaron to kind of think about this with me.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: And um, he has prepared uh a list for you, uh listeners and watchers, uh, five ways to stay gospel focused in kids' ministry.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: And so we're gonna get to that.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but first I want to back up and let Aaron just kind of uh tell us a couple of things about him.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: And um, at the end of the episode, we're gonna ask you about your calling story.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: So just tell us about uh how long you've been at LifeWay and kind of what you do now.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: So this is my 26th year at Lifeway.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have spent my entire career with the ministry here.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh started working in college at one of our Lifeway stores back when we had LifeWay stores.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I just count myself so blessed to be one of those odd millennials that has gotten to stay with the same company their entire career and really grow up and mature and develop.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I've gotten in that time, I've gotten to serve in a lot of different areas of Life Way.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh obviously spent a long time in stores working with churches directly.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I spent a couple years on the road as a church rep, uh, getting to meet with churches in their backyards, getting to meet with kids' ministry leaders in their offices and find out, you know, what's working, what are your pain points.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then after that, I got to uh move here to Nashville and join the communications team and the LifeWay research team.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, during all that, I told my wife, you know, if I could ever do one thing at Lifeway, it would be I'd want to work on the gospel project team.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's just always resonated with me and very, very near to my heart.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the Lord in his sovereignty saw fit for that to work out.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh it is a dream job of mine.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And as you already mentioned, dream team to work with too.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that is such an amazing story.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I have watched you through the years.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: I haven't been at LifeWait 26 years.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: But um, I've I've I remember you and I talking throughout the years, even before you joined our team, just about um some of your writings that you've done.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: You're a wonderful writer.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna talk about that too.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you know, your time doing communications, um, all the churches that you have had access to, just working in our stores, but also on the road, um, has been um such a benefit to us and in the work that you do, because we that is super important for us is to focus on the church, the Capital C church, but our local churches and how they do ministry and the context that they do ministry in.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but one thing stays the same no matter what kind of church you are in, a big church, small church, country church, rural church, city church, church plant, um the gospel has to be the main thing.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so for us as children's ministers um and leaders, we have to be very intentional about that because we could easily slip into making it about other things, whether that is um our programming, the or just fun um in general, uh all the activities and things that really take a lot of time and we plan for those things too.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: That could, if we're not careful, start to um become the thing.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: And we drift away from that core uh message of of the gospel.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: So um I want to talk about that.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you said the gospel project is a dream job for you.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so that the Lord made that dream come true.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: Our series, here's my segue here, okay?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: Hang with me.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: Our series this uh this summer is called Summer Dreaming, which is a very loose theme, I realize, but it's really about um as a as a ministry leader myself through the years, summer um has that kind of energy.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Now, this would be after your VBS, maybe after camp, but maybe that last month of summer, last few weeks, you could start having some intentional time to reflect on your ministry, um, dream about what's next for your ministry, and um, and you know, take some some time to sit before the Lord and um and and do some planning.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so, Aaron, let me ask you this.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: What are you dreaming about these days?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: Doesn't have to be ministry related, but just dreaming related.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: That was a great segue.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: I did not, we did not plan that with me saying it was a dream job.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: So great job capturing that.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: So uh right now I'm actually working on a book for Life Way uh on this very theme, being gospel sitter in ministry.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of my dreaming is trying to listening, listen to the Lord, listen to the Holy Spirit, and with this opportunity to speak to churches and help inspire them to lead kids to the gospel.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: What are the key points?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what are the main things that God would have me say to encourage others?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh writing a book is a, you know this, is a very interesting product uh process.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you you start with some ideas, you start with inspiration, but it changes directions along the way and uh it kind of grows and develops.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh that is what is taking a lot of my time right now as far as just a dream and creative energy standpoint, is trying to um trying to come close to the finish line because I'm pretty near near the end of writing the book now.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully by summer it will be done.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, all right.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: So um you're up against um an editor's deadline, is that correct?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always against an editor's deadline in my job, but but definitely with this manuscript.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes, I know it is a lot of work.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but the dreaming part is really fun.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: So uh I think this is a good um this this overlays really nicely with what we're gonna talk about today because you're in this.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: You are not only developing curriculum, but you're developing a message in this book, which is going to be called Well, we don't have the official title yet, but the theme of it is gonna be Gospel Center Next Gen Ministry.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that could be the title or it could be something similar.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it'll at least be in the tagline.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but but that is what it is.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's you're going to be um unpacking uh for next gen ministry as a whole.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're a preschool leader, an elementary leader, preteen, middle school, high school, what does that look like to keep your ministry gospel focused?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so um I'm sure you're going to draw from that as we uh unpack these five ways to stay gospel focused in kids' ministry.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: So you've prepared some things.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: Our listeners and watchers are ready to hear.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: Let's start with number one.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so let me let me go ahead and tease that if you are listening to this, make sure you do stay to point five because it is what I would say the secret sauce and it makes everything else gel.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: So number one is to regularly define the gospel uh for yourself, for your leaders, uh, for your kids as well.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh Jan, imagine this.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you're a kid who's uh getting acquainted with the Bible for the first time, or if you're a new believer and it's the first time you're just kind of checking it out, you open up to the first book in the New Testament, the first page, and in most Bibles, it's going to say the gospel according to Matthew.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: You flip to the next book, the gospel according to Mark, and so on and so on.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if you're a kid and you go to Amazon or go to YouTube and type in gospel, you're just as likely to get the gospel according to the Simpsons or the Gospel according to peanuts.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so imagine that that's your first interaction with the word gospel, with this according to attached to it.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what are you gonna draw from that?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna draw, well, the gospel is subjective.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's, you know, you have your good news, I have my good news.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's really just an extension of that uh idea that's so pervasive in kids' culture today, youth culture, that everyone has their own truth.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really important, I think, to define clearly and continuously what we mean when we say the gospel and good news.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's one reason to do that.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: The other reason is because when you have churches that value the gospel, which hopefully all churches do and want to have gospel-centered ministries, sometimes you can elevate that word so much that it ends up diluting its meaning over time.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: So true.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, we have uh curriculum with gospel in the title.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got lots of books with gospel in the title, we've got gospel music, and we call gospel truth certain things gospel truth.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it can be very easy for that word gospel to move from what it biblically means to just this kind of catchphrase where we just mean religious, or it starts to mean things that we like, like things that our tribe of ministry likes and gravitates to.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the first thing in developing a Christ-centered ministry, a gospel-centered ministry is to regularly define what you mean by gospel, what the Bible means by gospel.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that would be that we're sinners, that we have a problem, and that God stepped in to solve that problem for us.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, he became a human in Jesus.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus lived a perfect life, never sinning.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: He died on the cross, and on the cross took the punishment for our sin.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And for believers, those who would repent and follow him, he gave them his righteousness through that act as well.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And he rose from the dead afterward.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And now we get the opportunity to respond to that gospel message by hopefully repenting and believing.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so one of one of the things that I have done for years to help me in this is I practice saying the gospel in two minutes or less to myself.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I'll do this sometimes in the shower or when I'm driving to work.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just because if I want that message to be on the tip of my tongue, I want it to be able to tell kids.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I want to be able to say it easily.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I want it to be elevated in importance, but not elevated to the sense of like where I get frozen when I get to say it.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that that would be point one is to define the gospel and practice saying it to yourself regularly so you can communicate it to others.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: So what you just said, that's your two-minute version, two-minute or less version of what you would say.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's interesting.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: In scripture, you've got like uh Stephen, when he's in front of the crowd, he gives like a uh a chapter-long definition of the gospel, you know, going through the Old Testament.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Then you've got like a sentence definition captured.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so the gospel it can be very condensed, it can be very expanded upon, but the message is is very simple and it can it can definitely be communicated in two minutes or less.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: So the gospel, the word gospel is what I'm I'm I'm talking back to what I think you're saying.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um it can be kind of just loosely thrown around.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: And if we so we need to define it, continue to define it for kids because we know that um it can mean lots of different things to different people, um, including this idea of my gospel truth.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: I hadn't even thought about that, using it in that context.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: But it it it makes sense that um that's something that we should watch out for.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then also just I think sometimes we say it assuming that kids know what we're talking about.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: And um if you've got new kids, they may have never heard the word before um or they've heard it out of context.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: But even your church kids that are with you every week, um, we may say it so much that we think they're tracking with us and they may not be.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's really important to continue to define it for them as well.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: In its simplest form, we know gospel means good news.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so um you you may say that a lot to your kids, but uh follow that up with why it's good news.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, something I would add to that is we also need to remind ourselves because sometimes we say it so often, we tend to skip over things and and get to points of the gospel that where we've missed Jesus.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, I know you've heard me write about or you've read uh me write about this before.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, with summer coming up in vacation Bible school in full gear, uh, a lot of churches uh have used before the ABCs of the gospel.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the admit your sinner, believe in Jesus, confess uh him as Lord.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the struggle sometimes is if we present that as just the gospel, we've actually missed the point because admit, believe, confess, that's actually the response to the gospel.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we do, but we can't get ahead of what Christ has done for us.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so by again, just continuing to rehearse that, it helps us just avoid jargon in the church that we've just gotten so used to creating acronyms for and systems of ways to present it.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we just need to slow down and hey, let me just let me just say it to myself, make sure I'm remembering it correctly.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're listening or watching and you're probably very familiar with the ABCs, uh, but your leaders may um think that the ABCs are the gospel.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that's a training component for us as we're especially preparing volunteers for VBS and um, you know, our Sunday school teachers and small group leaders, that they understand that the ABCs is a response to the gospel.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the gospel.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: So uh that's I'm I'm so glad that you brought that up because I think uh that's important for us to know.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: All right, let's move on to number two.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: What you got?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so number two is to teach the gospel every week or every touch point that you get with kids.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I mentioned I used to work in LifeWay stores.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: I had an uh interaction with a customer one time.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was a father who had come in and he said, I'm getting ready to have the talk with my daughter.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any books that can help me on this?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I took him over to our family section of the store and I showed him a shelf where we had books for kids on how babies are made.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he looked at me kind of sheepishly and he said, No, I'm sorry.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I'm getting ready to have the gospel talk with my daughter.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, wow, Aaron.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And now I so appreciated this father's uh leadership initiative to do the most important thing he could do, to teach the gospel to his daughter.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but what I lamented from that interaction was that he had elevated the gospel so high that he had actually not, according to him, had that talk before.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And had missed out on all these years of her growing up at that point where he could have been continuing to point her to this most important truth.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that sometimes we can run that risk.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: We we have parents and volunteers who run that risk and who enter thinking, the gospel is such an important message, I need to leave that to the professionals.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: But we can also do that in our ministries sometimes by thinking the gospel, you know, that's reserved for, you know, revival services and day four of vacation Bible school and uh and camp experiences.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um but, you know, I think to remember that the gospel is something we need to be communicating every chance we get.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's not now, that's not just Aaron's idea.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's what Jesus taught.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: He taught that all of Scripture is about himself.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're teaching the Bible every week to kids and we want to teach the way Jesus did, then we've got to make sure that we're we're leading kids from that story to the big overall story that points to Jesus.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think about um we have something called gospel opportunities, like go the word go is a great way to help volunteers and teachers remember that you have gospel opportunities throughout um your time in Sunday school or throughout VBS, whenever you have kids, that's what you just said.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: Anytime you're meeting with um kids, you have these go opportunities to uh to be able to not only teach the gospel message, but also share your own um gospel uh story about how you have a relationship with Jesus.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: And these are opportunities that come up and and we can in context share the gospel in those moments.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't have to be saved up for um, you know, like you said, day four of VBS.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: I think that, you know, uh most churches because of, you know, Life Wave has really good curriculum that's going to guide you to not do that.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's going to guide you to um be weaving in the gospel every day.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: Now, there may be a day where um, you know, we ask kids to respond, but that doesn't mean that we save the message for only that day.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah, and I think that goes back to you practicing your gospel talk um in the car, in the shower, um, to have that just be able to flow out of our mouths very easily as we're talking to kids.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and no matter where we are in the Bible, I'm glad you brought that up too.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why I love the gospel project because it is a Genesis to Revelation chronology, but we don't wait until we get to the New Testament to talk about Jesus.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: We're talking about Jesus every week because he is the whole point of every story.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: And and we help uh leaders, we help you um be able to weave those New Testament stories into the message of Jesus.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's what quality curriculum does.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why Gospel Project and really everything that we do at Life Way is going to have that trustworthy um value because we we value that so much and we want to equip you to to do the same.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: So, okay, all right, let's go to number three.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, three is very similar to two.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so where two was teach the gospel every week, three is to teach the Bible the way that Jesus did.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I I find this really fascinating.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus's first teaching to his disciples post-resurrection was how to see him in the Old Testament.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: This was before he gave them the Great Commission, before he said, Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is before he sent the Holy Spirit to them.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so before they were equipped for evangelism, Jesus said, if you want to do that right, you need to start by seeing how the Old Testament is about me.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I love so he did that on the on the road with the disciples uh at Emmaus.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: He did that with other disciples, uh, that when more of them were gathered afterward.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: That was the very first thing he did.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: He put a premium on that teaching.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that that should speak to us too.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes we miss that because it's between these great truths of Jesus' resurrection and the Holy Spirit coming.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we miss this crucial teaching in between those two key moments that Jesus does to prepare his believers for that.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: We also, where Jesus spoke out encouragingly to his disciples, we also see where he uh criticized the Pharisees who were serious Bible students.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: But he says, you pour over the scriptures and yet you miss the point because you don't see me.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: You don't see how they testify about me and the things concerning me in them, too.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, the Bible, teaching the Bible is one of the most important things we can do in kids' ministry, but we can teach it wrong if we don't teach Jesus in it.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think that that's super important is to remember that there is a right way to teach God's word, and it's through the lens of Jesus, according to Jesus.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I think about even growing up in the church, which I did, and I had many faithful.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Sunday school teachers.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't remember learning the Bible this way.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I think even without teaching heresy, uh, we can start weaving our own narrative of how all this happened, and especially through um the eyes of a child who is just um learning things, you know.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: We know that they don't come every week.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: We know that um um they don't necessarily have parents who are teaching them at home.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so we have to really steward that time well no matter where we are in scripture.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: But if we don't teach it correctly, or if we don't have that focus of keeping the main thing, the main thing, I think the danger is, and this is what I did as a child, I wove together a narrative that like had Jesus showing up, you know, when he was born.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: That I didn't have a concept that he was there at creation.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's very common.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that is a heresy, by the way, to believe that.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: So um I think your point is well made that um if we frame it that way, that even Jesus taught about himself this way, that that should drive us as we're as we're teaching kids.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's my story too.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was in college when I first made that connection.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that and seeing the Bible as one big story.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember the first time that I started reading the Bible through uh books at a time, and I got to the end of Exodus, uh, where Joseph's family had joined him in Egypt and then picked up with the story of Moses, where they were slaves and needed to deliver.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, so those two stories I've heard all my life growing up, they're connected.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if all the Bible all the stories in the Bible are like and it was eye-opening.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yes, I think it's important to remember not only did Jesus teach that, it's the first thing he taught his disciples upon his resurrection.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: So Jesus put a premium on it, we should as well.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: Love that.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: All right, let's move on to number four.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so number four is to ask two questions each week.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna say what those two questions are in a second, but they will help us teach the Bible, the teach the Bible the way Jesus did.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um so if you've ever looked at like how the Bible treats questions, it's really fascinating.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: So there are there are thousands of questions in the Bible.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: It really is a book of questions and answers.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: But the person in Scripture who both asked the most questions and was asked the most questions was Jesus.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: As it just as an aside, like if you want to learn to teach as Jesus did, looking at the way he taught and used questions is is really fascinating.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I, as I was thinking about this, I thought, I wonder what the first question in the Old Testament is and what the first question in the New Testament is, and if there's any parallel there.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I opened it up and just started looking.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, one of the first questions in the Old Testament, it's not the first, I think the first is when Satan deceptively says, Did God really say?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: But after that, one of the first questions is God saying, Where are you?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: So Adam and Eve had they were in hiding at the time.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: They were for the first time separated from God of their own choice.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they had just sinned and they realized that they were naked, they were shameful, and so they were hiding from God.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: So the very first question, or one of the first questions in the Old Testament, is where are you in relationship to me?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And there's distance, there's separation.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: So flip to the New Testament.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Jenna, you have any guesses as to where the first question that comes from.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: The edge of my seat.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: The first question in the New Testament is, where is he?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: He referring to Jesus.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: This was the wise men asking this to Herod.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: They had seen his star and they said, Where is he who is born king of the Jews?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's another question about proximity.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's, you know, where is God in relationship to us?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's just this beautiful like symmetry in scripture where you've got the Old Testament saying, Hey, where are you in relation to Jesus?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And there's this relation to God, and there's this, there's this problem, there's this gap that needs solving.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the first question in the New Testament is, and where is he?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, where is he?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's God with us, Emmanuel.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: He's taken on flesh to solve that problem.
• 26:01
  unknown: Yeah.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so here's the really cool thing, I think.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: You can take those two questions, where is he and where are you?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And no matter what you're studying in Scripture that week, you can use those two script those two questions to drive you to the gospel and to drive you to Jesus.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say, for example, that you're teaching uh the book of Esther, the story of Esther.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now Esther is a book that never mentions God by name one time.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but if you ask that question, where is he?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Where is God in this story?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: You see how he is sovereignly and uh meticulously setting all of these things in motion to bring deliverance to his people from a very real enemy that they had.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: You have you see this theme of salve, God's salvation in this book, um, and also how it fits into this big story of salvation, God calling a people and preserving them for himself.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so then if you ask every week, where are you?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you can ask that about the people in the story, you can ask that about the original audience that the book was being delivered to your message, and then you can ask that about yourself too.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: The gospel always has a hinge of here's what Jesus has done.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: What's your response to it?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's so important in kids' ministry, especially.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, kids' ministry is really unique in that, you know, in adult ministry, you've got people that mostly are there of their own free will.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can bank on the fact that probably most people in your adult Sunday school class are believers.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they have responded to the gospel.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the younger you get in discipleship, the more likely you are to be teaching people who have not yet responded.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so every week uh we've got a mix of kids we're teaching, some who are Christians and some who have responded to this message with repentance and belief, and others who haven't and are still enemies of God.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so by asking that question, not of just the text, but of our kids and of our heart each week, you know, where is God in the story and where are my kids in relationship to God?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: It helps us remember there's this need for us to continually preach the gospel and continually encourage a response to it.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: And not to grow weary of that.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't get a response, um, I recently I heard um, I think it takes, well, I don't know if you can put a number on this statistically, but this was some kind of research done about how many times we on average have to hear the gospel before there is a response.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it was like 11.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't quote me on that, everybody, but the point is, my point is that um it takes several times maybe for a child especially to start hearing the gospel and start understanding.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: And the Holy Spirit in his timing um works and we have to release him to do that.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but our faithfulness is in sharing that consistently.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: So all right, let's move to number five, the last one.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so number five, uh boy, that that really uh responds to what you just said really well.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that is to remember that as kids ministry leaders, our worth is not found in our performance.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's not found in the results, in the response of our kids, like you just said.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it is found in the work of Jesus, which has been completed on our behalf.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh I would imagine that a lot of uh listeners and now viewers of this podcast, uh, you know, kids' ministry leaders are doers by nature.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we are.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: But those that take the time to listen to a podcast, like we want to know the tips and tricks.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like we want to excel, we want to create the best kids' ministries that we possibly can.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so easy to to take our eyes off the gospel, to to make our identity in, you know, how are we performing?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: What are our numbers?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, uh, what what's the fruit that we see or don't see?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, what opportunities am I getting to serve in my local church and outside the church?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the gospel says that's not your identity.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Your identity is in Jesus, who has done the work for you.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Your worth is found in him.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: And uh if I can just share a personal story about that, uh, so I knew that coming in today, we we were had this podcast scheduled and we were gonna talk.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I thought, you know, I'm gonna spend the weekend getting some questions prepared and and rehearsing, you know, what we're gonna talk about.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we, our family, we had a horrible, horrible weekend on a couple different levels.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: We we had a big loss recently.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we just got in a fight yesterday.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: There were tears, like my tears.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I send yesterday.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh members of my family send, and uh I went to bed last night thinking, man, I'm just not in a good spot to go into this podcast.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna set my alarm really early in the morning, get up, and then I'll get you know ready and prepared.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I set my alarm.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: An hour later, I got woken up, my daughter was at the door and said, Dad, I threw up.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that you you know what that's like.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I do.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: So night and morning plans were completely up-ended.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: But it was such a it was a reminder again.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Your worth, Erin, is not in how prepared you are for a podcast to teach others about being gospel centered.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Your worth is found in me.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Your ability to do effective ministry, to make an effective podcast recording is found in me.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've done everything necessary for that already.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: You just get to rest on that.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and I think that, you know, of all the list we could create of all the books we could write and read about gospel-centered ministry, to remember that at the end of the day, it we we want to be excellent in what we do because Christ was excellent in our place, but we can rest in him.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: That that is an encouraging thought.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for sharing that with me personally, but also for everybody listening or watching.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that is powerful.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: And we really need to um to remember that because the enemy would have it, you know, his way of getting in our head about, well, you know, you're not really qualified to do this podcast this morning.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you messed up a lot.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um man, Sunday mornings, I think that's why they are so hard.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, because inevitably there'll be some kind of mini crisis at home or on the way.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and many of us are raising our own children and, you know, all of the things.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I know when I go out and speak at at churches and conferences, uh, there'll all there'll be a little voice in the back of my head, yeah, but you know, you didn't quite get this right.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: Are you really going to tell a bunch of other people how to do this?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: This is an offering in an act of obedience and faithfulness to do um what I feel like I've been called to do.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so for us as as ministry leaders, that is to faithfully share the gospel with the children that um have come to our spaces.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't have to um judge ourselves on that performance.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: We we put it out there and the Holy Spirit does the rest.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for sharing all of these.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: We're fantastic.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I know listeners and watchers, you will um want to probably go back, save this episode, maybe share it with a friend, because I think it's important for us to, you know, we just recorded a whole season on fun.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: And listen, we are very much about fun uh on this podcast and in children's ministry.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but to keep the main thing, the main thing, and that is the gospel at the center of everything that we do in kids' ministry.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for sharing these, Erin.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: Well, before we let you go, I would love for you to be able to share your own calling story with us.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: This is your first time on the podcast.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's called Kids Ministry Calling.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so I want to give you a chance to share with our friends your calling story.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for the opportunity to do that.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it's it's so interesting how the Lord works things out the way you're not expecting them to.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: So uh when I was thinking about uh college and loosely at that time thinking about career plans, uh at the time I very much wanted to go to a Bible college in my town, uh, the same college that Chuck went to, actually.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I had my grandmother talk me out of that saying, you'll never be able to get a job with a Bible degree.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: And there's always someone who says that.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: So she encouraged me to go to a public college where I got a degree in psychology, which is not anything I use now at all.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't know, maybe, but uh uh definitely not as much as I would have had a Bible degree.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it's so interesting that now I I steward a Bible curriculum and that would have been a great fit for me.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: But at the time that wasn't where I thought I was supposed to go.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I got a part-time job at at Lifeway.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: I had shopped there for music and gotten a Bible there before and just thought that'd be a great place to work.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's was just a part-time job for me in college.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And uh as I continued to serve there, I just felt um uh a rewarding experience getting to serve the church in that unique way, equipping them with resources.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I had never thought of myself at a right as a writer before then.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'd always gotten really good grades and writing, and uh, but I had never thought about that or had anyone say, you know, hey, you're you're really good at this.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: You should consider doing this.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I had a family member, I wrote a blog post just on a whim, and they commented and said, uh, you were really good at that.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it was that little spark of encouragement that made me start pondering, huh, maybe that is something that God has given me a gift in.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh I began investigating opportunities to write specifically for Life Way and uh for eight years uh did contractual writing on the side for uh different curriculum lines and magazines and things like that, and uh continuing to serve the church uh on the road or or in stores at LifeWay.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then the Lord offered an opportunity to write full time and then to to steward other writers' work.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so it has just been really neat how, again, I did not even go in recognizing I had that gift, but along the way, the Lord revealed uh, this is what I've equipped you for, and this is what I'm calling you for.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And as the Lord was doing that, the gospel project didn't even exist at that time.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I began, I was like, I remember telling my wife, I really wish there was a curriculum that was intentional every week in helping kids see how it connects to and I did not even know that Lifeway was talking about this behind the scenes.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just really neat to see how the Lord works all things together in that way.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: And we're so glad he did.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you, Erin.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for spending some time with us today.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for everything that you do for the Gospel Project.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: I want to tell listeners, or make could you tell listeners and viewers, um, what's the best way to find out more about the gospel project?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so going to our website, gospelproject.com, would be the best way.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we so the gospel project is not just for kids.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we have it for kids, students, and adults.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's aged aligned.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if you choose, everybody in your church can be studying the same portions of scripture at the time, which is great for family discipleship.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's great for like car rides home from church when you've in Sunday school as an adult been studying the same passages that your kids have.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but gospelproject.com uh is a great place to stop by and learn more.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you can also download uh free samples of our curriculum off of that, and so uh really get a taste.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Currently, you can go there and get, I believe, three samples from the Old Testament and three from the New Testament for all of our age grades.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's the best thing to do is just print it out, try it out, maybe get uh one of your classes to try it out and and and see how it works for you.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh where are we right now in the chronology as of summer?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: So this is a test question because I know y'all work so far in advance.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you where are we right now?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: Where's the church right now?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so let me preface that by saying the gospel project is unique in that we have churches that do what we call on cycle.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's what you're asking is where where would our on-cycle churches be?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they would be in the New Testament right now, uh, in the life of Jesus.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: Churches, though, can join because we teach the Bible chronologically, a lot of churches understandably want to start with Genesis, one start in the beginning.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so anytime within that rolling three years when we want launch a new cycle, churches can jump in anytime.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have a lot of churches that are in the New Testament right now, and and you can jump right in.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is a great time to in the New Testament.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's not hard to connect the gospels to Jesus, right?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you can also start at the beginning in in Genesis as well.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so we've got churches all throughout the chronology studying.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh don't be discouraged if you feel like, oh, they're not, they're not starting in Genesis right now.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: We we always are.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's always an opportunity to start in Genesis.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: Now, we will, if you want to stay with our timeline as we release, you know, brand new study sessions and and or study plans and and sessions.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: That is we're resetting the chronology starting in fall of 2027.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_03: Am I right?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: So um know that as well.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much for listening today.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna close it out here.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Erin.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for everything you do, thank you for your team and listeners and watchers.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: We will see you in the next episode of Kids Ministry Calling.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: This episode of Kids Ministry Calling Podcast was brought to you by our amazing team, including executive producer Andy Elkins, producer Nikki Ogden, edited by Trey Garza, and recorded in the LifeWay Podcast Studio in Brentwood, Tennessee, with Sound Engineer Donnie Gordon and artwork by Cameron Wilson.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm your host, Janna McRuder.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening to Kids Ministry Calling.