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The Handless Maiden: A Tale to Heal the Wounded Feminine · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: Jungians have a sweet spot for fairy tales. Marie-Louise von
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: Franz made an art out of interpreting fairy tales. And
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: one of the reasons that we're so interested in them
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  Speaker 3: is they capture a kind of collective wisdom. And some
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: researchers suggest that these tales are hundreds, thousands of years old.
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: So when we take on a fairy tale, we're looking
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  Speaker 3: to bring forward some of this ancient wisdom. which is
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  Speaker 3: encoded in the symbolism. Today, we're going to examine a
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Grimm's brother tale called Maiden Without Hands. A miller, who
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  Speaker 3: was so poor that he had nothing else but his
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  Speaker 3: mill and a large apple tree behind it, went into
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  Speaker 3: the forest to fetch wood. While there, he met an
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  Speaker 3: old man who said, Why are you torturing yourself so much?
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  Speaker 3: I'll make you rich if you promise to give me
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  Speaker 3: what's behind your mill. In three years, I'll come and
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  Speaker 3: fetch what's mine.
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  Speaker 5: The miller thought to himself, That's my apple tree. So
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  Speaker 5: he said, Yes! And signed it away to the man.
• 2:23
  Speaker 5: When the miller returned home, his wife said to him,
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  Speaker 5: Tell me, miller, how did all this wealth suddenly get
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  Speaker 5: into our house? All at once I've discovered our chests
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  Speaker 5: and boxes are full of money. It's from a stranger
• 2:41
  Speaker 5: I met in the forest. he said. He promised me
• 2:46
  Speaker 5: great wealth if I agreed in writing to give him
• 2:50
  Speaker 5: what's behind our mill. Oh, husband, his wife explained in dread.
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: This is terrible. That was the devil. He didn't mean
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  Speaker 5: the apple tree, but our daughter who was behind the
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  Speaker 5: mill sweeping out the yard. The miller's daughter was a
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  Speaker 5: beautiful and pious maiden, and after three years, the devil
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: appeared quite early and wanted to fetch her. But she
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  Speaker 5: drew a circle around herself and purified herself. Consequently, the
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: devil couldn't get near her, and he said angrily to
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  Speaker 5: the miller, I want you to take all the water
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  Speaker 5: away from her. so she can't wash herself anymore. Since
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  Speaker 5: the miller was afraid of the devil, he did as
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: he was told. The next morning, the devil came again,
• 3:52
  Speaker 5: but she wept on her hands and washed herself with
• 3:55
  Speaker 5: her tears so that she was completely clean. Once more,
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: the devil couldn't get near her, and he furiously said
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: to the miller, Job.
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  Speaker 3: So that I can grab hold of her.
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  Speaker 5: The miller was horrified and replied, How can I chop
• 4:19
  Speaker 5: off the hands of my own dear child? I won't
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  Speaker 5: do it. You know what? Then I'll take you instead
• 4:29
  Speaker 5: if you don't do it.
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  Speaker 3: The father was so terribly scared of him that in
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: his fear, He promised to do what the devil commanded.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: He went to his daughter and.
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  Speaker 5: Said, My child, if I don't chop off both your hands,
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  Speaker 5: the devil's going to take me away. And in my fear,
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  Speaker 5: I promised I'd do it. Please forgive me. Father, she answered,
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  Speaker 5: do what you want to me. Then she extended both
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  Speaker 5: her hands and let them chop them off. The devil
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  Speaker 5: came a third time. But she had wept so long
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  Speaker 5: and so much on her stumps that they too were
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  Speaker 5: all clean, so he lost any claim to her. Now
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  Speaker 5: since the miller had gained so much wealth thanks to
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  Speaker 5: his daughter, he promised her that he would see to
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  Speaker 5: it that she'd live in splendor for the rest of
• 5:30
  Speaker 5: her life. But she didn't want to remain there. I
• 5:33
  Speaker 5: want to leave here. and shall depend on the kindness
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  Speaker 5: of people to provide for me whatever I need. Then
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  Speaker 5: she had her maimed hands bound to her back, and
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  Speaker 5: at dawn she set out on her way and walked
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  Speaker 5: and walked the entire day until it had become dark
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  Speaker 5: and she had reached the king's garden. There was a
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  Speaker 5: hole in the hedge of the garden. So she went
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  Speaker 5: inside through the hole and found an apple tree that
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  Speaker 5: she shook with her body. When the apples fell to
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  Speaker 5: the ground, she leaned over and lifted them with her
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  Speaker 5: teeth and ate them. She lived this way for two days,
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  Speaker 5: but on the third the guards came and saw her.
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  Speaker 5: So they seized her and threw her into the prison house,
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  Speaker 5: and on the next day she was led before the
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  Speaker 5: king and was to be expelled from the country. Why,
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  Speaker 5: cried the prince, it would be better if she looked
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  Speaker 5: after the chickens in the courtyard. So she remained there
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  Speaker 5: for some time and looked after the chickens. Meanwhile, the
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  Speaker 5: prince saw her often and became very fond of her. However,
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  Speaker 5: the time came for him to marry and royal messengers
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  Speaker 5: were sent all over the world to find a beautiful
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  Speaker 5: bride for him. You don't have to send out messengers
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  Speaker 5: to search so far. said the prince. I know a
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  Speaker 5: bride who's very close by. The old king reflected.
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  Speaker 3: And tried to think of a maiden, but he wasn't
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  Speaker 3: familiar with any young lady in his land who was
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  Speaker 3: beautiful and rich.
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  Speaker 6: You don't intend to marry that maiden who tends the
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  Speaker 6: chickens in the courtyard, do you?
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  Speaker 3: The son explained, however. that he wouldn't marry anyone else
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  Speaker 3: but her. Finally, the king had to yield to his wish,
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  Speaker 3: and soon thereafter, he died. The prince inherited the throne
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: and lived happily with his wife for some time. Yet
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: at one point, the young king had to leave his
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  Speaker 3: realm to fight in a war, and during his absence,
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  Speaker 3: his wife gave birth to a beautiful child. She sent
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: a messenger with a letter to announce the good news. However,
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  Speaker 3: on the way the messenger stopped to rest near a
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  Speaker 3: brook and fell asleep.
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  Speaker 5: Then the devil appeared, for he was still trying to
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  Speaker 5: harm the pious queen, and so he exchanged the letter
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  Speaker 5: for another one that said the queen had given birth
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  Speaker 5: to a changeling. When the king read the letter, he
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  Speaker 5: was quite distressed, but he wrote a letter in which
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  Speaker 5: he declared that the queen and the child should be
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: protected until his return. The messenger started back with the letter.
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: but he stopped to rest at the same spot and
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  Speaker 5: fell asleep. Once again the devil came and put a
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  Speaker 5: different letter in his pocket that said they should banish
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  Speaker 5: the queen and the child from his land. This was
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  Speaker 5: to be done even if all the people at the
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  Speaker 5: court wept out of sadness.
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  Speaker 6: I didn't come here to become queen. I don't have
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  Speaker 6: any luck, and also I don't demand any, the queen declared.
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  Speaker 6: Bind my child and my hands on my back and
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  Speaker 6: then I'll set out into the world. That evening, she
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  Speaker 6: reached a fountain in a dense forest where a good.
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  Speaker 5: Old man was sitting. Please, show me some mercy, she said,
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  Speaker 5: and lift my child to my breast so that I
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  Speaker 5: can give him something to drink. The man did this,
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  Speaker 5: whereupon he said to her, There's.
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  Speaker 3: A thick tree standing over there.
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  Speaker 6: Go over and wrap your maimed arms around it.
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  Speaker 5: When she did this, her hands grew back. Thereupon the
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  Speaker 5: old man pointed to a house.
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  Speaker 3: Go and live there.
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  Speaker 5: Don't leave the house and don't open the door unless
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  Speaker 5: someone asks three times to enter for God's sake. In
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  Speaker 5: the meantime, the king returned home and realized how he
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: had been deceived. Consequently, he set out accompanied by a
• 10:05
  Speaker 5: single servant to look for his wife. After a long journey,
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  Speaker 5: he lost his way one night in the same forest
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  Speaker 5: in which the queen was living. However, he didn't know
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  Speaker 5: that the queen was so close.
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  Speaker 7: Over there. Over there.
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  Speaker 5: His servant said.
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  Speaker 6: There's a little light glimmering in the house. Thank God
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  Speaker 6: we can rest. Not at all, responded the king. I
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  Speaker 6: don't want to rest very long. I want to continue
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  Speaker 6: to search for my wife before I can take any rest.
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  Speaker 6: But the servant pleaded and complained so much about being
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  Speaker 6: tired that the king agreed out of compassion. When they
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  Speaker 6: arrived at the house.
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  Speaker 5: The moon was shining, and they saw the queen standing
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  Speaker 5: at the window.
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  Speaker 6: Goodness, that must be our queen. She resembles her very much.
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  Speaker 6: But I realize that she cannot be the queen, because
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  Speaker 6: this woman has hands. The servant requested lodging for the night,
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  Speaker 6: but she refused because he didn't ask for God's sake. So,
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  Speaker 6: He wanted to move on and look for another place
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  Speaker 6: to spend the night. Then the king himself stepped forward
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  Speaker 6: and cried out, For God's sake, let me enter. I
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  Speaker 6: can't let you enter till you ask me three times
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  Speaker 6: for God's sake. And after the king asked another two
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  Speaker 6: times for God's sake, she opened the door.
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  Speaker 5: Then his little son... came skipping toward him and led
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  Speaker 5: the king to his mother and he recognized her immediately
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  Speaker 5: as his beloved wife. The next morning, just as they
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  Speaker 5: left the house and began traveling together to return to
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  Speaker 5: their country, the house vanished right behind them.
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  Speaker 2: And before we begin discussing this really rich, complicated tale...
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: We're going to take just a minute to tell you
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: about our Patreon.
• 12:21
  Speaker 7: Hello, listeners.
• 12:22
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• 12:26
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  Speaker 7: So check that out.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: You can access our Patreon by going to our website, thisjungianlife.com. Well,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: this is such an important fairy tale. It's been important
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: to many women, especially. And it's been written about many
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: times by Jungian authors. And there are also versions of
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  Speaker 2: this tale in many different cultures. So there's something very
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  Speaker 2: universal and archetypal about it. And I suppose Jungian You know,
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  Speaker 2: one way of understanding it at sort of a high
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  Speaker 2: level before we kind of get into the details is
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  Speaker 2: it's really about the father wound in the psyche of
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  Speaker 2: a daughter. It's one of these stories where the father
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  Speaker 2: sacrifices the daughter to meet his own ends. We also
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  Speaker 2: see that in Psyche and Eros and Beauty and the
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  Speaker 2: Beast and in the story of Iphigenia. And it's very
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  Speaker 2: kind of cruel and unthinkable. And yet, psychologically, it happens
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  Speaker 2: all the time. Daughters are sacrificed. I mean, sons are too,
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  Speaker 2: but that's a different fairy tale.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: There is the theme that I would say is going
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  Speaker 4: on here is the undervaluation of the young or elemental feminine,
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  Speaker 4: that it can be sacrificed. seemingly in a justifiable way,
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  Speaker 4: by the father. I mean, Beauty and Beauty and the
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  Speaker 4: Beast does the same thing that the young woman in
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  Speaker 4: this tale does. She says, oh, that's okay. Don't mind me.
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  Speaker 4: Do whatever you need to do. You're more important. Chop
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  Speaker 4: off my hands. That's okay. Send me into the forest
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  Speaker 4: to live with the beast. I don't mind. That there
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  Speaker 4: is this kind of dynamic in the psyche. That's what's
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  Speaker 4: important to remember, that it's in the psyche, portrayed as
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  Speaker 4: father and daughter, but that the masculine is willing to accept,
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  Speaker 4: in this tale especially, a particularly gruesome sacrifice of hands,
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  Speaker 4: of agency.
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  Speaker 8: Right.
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  Speaker 2: And I thought of another example, which is the Inuit
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: myth of Sedna, of which there are many different versions,
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  Speaker 2: but one of them features the father chopping off the
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  Speaker 2: tips of the daughter's fingers to save himself.
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  Speaker 7: And you're right, Deb.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I think this is one of those fairy
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  Speaker 2: tales that can kind of work on this kind of
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  Speaker 2: cultural and personal level and intrapsychic level. Like there are
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: these ways that sometimes fathers sacrifice daughters, and then that
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: can be an intrapsychic symbolic process where the father which
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  Speaker 2: might symbolize the kind of dominant cultural values and the
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: way those impinge upon, as you said, Deb, the kind
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: of young elemental feminine in the psyche of either a
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  Speaker 2: man or a woman, for that matter.
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  Speaker 3: I've heard that term a few times in our conversation.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: There are ways that a father will sacrifice a daughter
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: in a cultural interpretation. Could you give an example or
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: two of what that might mean? What does that look
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: like in a lived environment?
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  Speaker 2: Well, on a personal example, just to kind of come
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  Speaker 2: up with a hypothetical, it might be a father who
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: is very kind of career and achievement oriented. And perhaps
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  Speaker 2: he has a very talented daughter who's more interested in,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: for example, the arts. But he really imposes his will
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: on her that, you know, she's no, no, she's going
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: to go to business school or she's going to go
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: to law school. And there isn't a there isn't a
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: seeing of the daughter. It isn't I see you and
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  Speaker 2: all of your fullness and what you want and what
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  Speaker 2: you value. It's more how can you carry, you know,
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  Speaker 2: live out my desires or how can what you do
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  Speaker 2: reflect well on me or somehow the choices that you
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: make can affirm choices I've made for myself. So that's
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: just a kind of personal example. But I think in terms,
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  Speaker 2: if we think about it more kind of intrapsychically or symbolically,
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  Speaker 2: you know, some, I mean, especially the king, right? But
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  Speaker 2: I think the father too can kind of carry, these
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: are the dominant values in the culture. And if the
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: dominant values in the culture kind of don't, they may
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  Speaker 2: impinge upon us. We might live in a culture, for example,
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  Speaker 2: that is, as we do, that is very extractive and
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: very interested in material possessions and in distraction. And that
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  Speaker 2: kind of maiden part of us might want to just
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: let some moss grow out in nature or something like that.
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  Speaker 2: But there's a way that these dominant values can inflict
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: harm on other kinds of impulses in the psyche.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, that makes sense to me. And we could take
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: any number of perspectives with a fairy tale. We could
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: imagine that this is a dream, for instance, that's happening
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: in a man's psyche, a dream that's happening in a
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: woman's psyche. And then we would parse out what the
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: various images might represent, anonymous, wise old man, et cetera.
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  Speaker 3: One of the things that I was resonating with is
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  Speaker 3: how In the face of achieving wealth, what might a
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: man sacrifice in his own psyche? And if the apple tree,
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  Speaker 3: which then anthropomorphically becomes the young feminine, how many men
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  Speaker 3: have to silence their anima, have to silence their young soul,
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  Speaker 3: chop its hands off in order to tie themselves to
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  Speaker 3: a corporate job?
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, I like that, Joseph, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: The quest for wealth. What has to be silenced, given away,
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  Speaker 3: sacrificed to mammon, so to speak, in order to achieve wealth?
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  Speaker 4: I'm taking a step back in the story to the father,
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  Speaker 4: first of all, not recognizing the devil. And secondly, the
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: first sacrifice, which is, hey, I'm willing to chop down
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: that apple tree in the back.
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  Speaker 7: So we.
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  Speaker 4: there's a kind of willful ignorance of, uh, this, this
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: deal is a little too good to be true that
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: all of a sudden out of nowhere, some guy appears
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  Speaker 4: and says, Hey, look, mister, have I got a deal
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  Speaker 4: for you? All you gotta do is, you know, give
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: me what's in the back. I mean, most of us,
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: I think would sort of step back and say, Hey,
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: wait a minute. Um, who are you, where'd you come from,
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: let's think about this. But our greedy, dominant male figure
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: of the father can only hear, this is great, and
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: all I have to do is chop down the tree,
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: which is a huge symbol of life. Trees are archetypal.
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: Roots go down into the depths, the branches reach up
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: to the spiritual heights. Trees are huge religious symbols. This
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: is a tree that bears fruit, and so the ground
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: is laid for the rest of the tale to unfold
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: and for the father to then accede all too readily
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: to chopping off his daughter's hands.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point, Deb, and it's underscored by
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: the fact that his wife says, what were you thinking?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: That was the devil.
• 20:29
  Speaker 7: She knows right away.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: Right, exactly.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: So that's a great motif here in this fairy tale, this,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: like you said, this kind of willful ignorance.
• 20:38
  Speaker 7: Like, oh, get rich quick. That sounds great.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Let me not interrogate that too much and just go
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: with it and not think about what I'm going to
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: have to give up to do that.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: Or at least in the beginning, he thinks it's going
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: to just be an old apple tree in the backyard
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: and that's an easy sacrifice. Go ahead. You want my
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: apple tree?
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: Go for it.
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  Speaker 3: It is strange, but of course, fairy tales happen in
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: some other universe where if a stranger came up to
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: you and said, I'll make you wealthy, that we would
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: believe them. Oh, sure. That sounds perfectly credible, and I'm
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: sure you'll do that.
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: And God knows it happens all the time. The scamming
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: industries make money.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: But I do like what you had said, Deb, about
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: the sacrifice of the tree perhaps being more significant. And
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: if we take the opening context of the tale, which is,
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: this is a miller, He has his mill, nothing else.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: He's maybe even destitute. The tree is the only generative
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: thing around him in the opening of the fairy tale.
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: At least you've got something that's giving you fruit that
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: you can eat and survive on. It gives you sustenance.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: And it is interesting that the tree is there at
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: the beginning of the tale and the tree is there
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: at the end. The bargain around the tree costs.
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: The maiden her hands.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: And the tree in the end restores her hands to her.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Well, and it's also in the middle because she eats
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: the apples in the king's garden. So it winds up
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: being a really important symbol throughout the tale. And the tree,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, if we think about what the tree means archetypally,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: it's often associated with the mother, but it's a symbol
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: that can be either masculine or feminine because it's also
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: this A kind.
• 22:34
  Speaker 7: Of axis mundi.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: But then, like you said, Deb, it goes down into
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: the depths. And, of course, apples have a very storied, archetypal,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: mythic history.
• 22:45
  Speaker 6: Yep.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: So, certainly, there's this lovely symmetry in this version of
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: the tale that the tree is there three times.
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: That the tree is also the generative tree of life.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: And it's the thing in the backyard.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: It's not right out front.
• 23:05
  Speaker 7: It's a little subtle.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: It's in the back. We take it for granted. And Joseph,
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: you know about, you know, in the Kabbalah, the tree
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: of life. It's just disregarded as just an old apple tree,
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: when in fact, it's very important.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: And one's children are the fruit of the generative tree.
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: So giving... The apple and the apple tree, in a sense,
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: is foreshadowing the fruit of his union with his wife
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: as well.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: We actually say the apple doesn't fall far from the
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: tree when we're talking about a child. And it also
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: makes me think of that odd book that everyone gives
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: to kids, right?
• 23:49
  Speaker 7: The Giving Tree.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: Oh, God, I hate that book. It's just so beautiful.
• 23:56
  Speaker 8: Awful i know i don't understand why it's like of
• 23:59
  Speaker 8: course i got the obligatory copy when i think when
• 24:01
  Speaker 8: i was pregnant but but you know i mean i
• 24:04
  Speaker 8: did read it to my kids which maybe i shouldn't
• 24:06
  Speaker 8: have but but but i do when i think about
• 24:08
  Speaker 8: i would sort of be like this is what does
• 24:10
  Speaker 8: the book actually mean.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: But i think it is something related to what we're
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: talking about right because the tree is this sort of
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: um uh image of maybe a transpersonal connection with a
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: transpersonal let's say And then the story, the tree is
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: just taken for granted and taken for granted and taken
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: for granted, which I think you point out, Deb, you know,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: that that's happening in this story too. So, yeah, so
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: the tree's doing a lot of work, a lot of
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: work in this story.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: So the opening scene also reminds me of that story
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: from the Gospels where Jesus goes out into the wilderness.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: The father goes out into the forest and the devil says,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: bow down to me and I'll give you everything. Anything,
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: everything you want, all the riches of the world, but
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: if you just submit to me. And here we have
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: this morality tale that what if Jesus had said yes?
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: How would that have played out in one way or another?
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the answer is it's an injury to the soul.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. And it's a story also, if the maiden represents
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: the soul, that even assaulted in such a shocking way,
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: the soul sustains, that the soul remains intact even when
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: it is subject to terrible circumstances.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: You know, now might be a good time for us
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: to take just a quick break and mention our Dream
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: School program. We have a 12-month online dream school that
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: teaches you how to work with your dreams the same
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: way we work with dreams on the podcast. And it's
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: a rich community and lots of opportunity to spend time
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: with us in live events that occur every month. And
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: we hope that maybe you'll check it out. And you
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: can go learn more by going to our website, thisunionlife.com.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: And you'll see a tab there for dream school.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: We would love to see you there. Returning to the
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: fairy tale the next. somewhat magical thing that happens is
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: somehow the girl knows that drawing a circle around her
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: can help and we had in a recent episode talked
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: about the power of the mandala the power of the
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: circle and so one way we might interpret that is
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: the maiden is connected with to knowledge of the self
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: of the transcendent that instinctively she knows that that invoking
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: the self can help her, and it does, in fact,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: help her. This idea of drawing a magic circle is
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: part of every magical tradition I've come across in my reading.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: There's something so powerful about drawing the circle around us
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: that it's universal and mysterious.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: And then when she can't manage to draw a circle,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: her tears are cleansing and sacralizing.
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: And that's such a truth, I think, about tears, that
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: they are cleansing. They do wash away difficult emotions. That's
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: why if we let ourselves kind of finish crying, we
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: often feel better and may have a sense of clarity.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: So the fairy tale is picking up on that truth
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: When we have tears, it's a motif in other fairy tales,
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: certainly in the New Testament and the Bible, that that
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: is when the transcendent occurs, that we sink into the
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: depths of our grief. We feel the pain, the heartfelt pain.
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: We leave the story behind. And simply have a reunion
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: with our heart and its sorrow. And that is transformative.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: The tears are the element of change when we can
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: simply let ourselves feel of this is what has happened.
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: She's grieving. And it is simply sad. And that is
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: the redemptive moment, the magic, as it were, of tears.
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: So the tears are connected to the idea of purity.
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: And so it brings up a question, what does purity mean?
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: Because it is so central to this magical protection from
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: what the devil represents. One way that I think of
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: her purity is that she remains in contact with the self,
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: that her relationship to the center of her being remains
• 29:09
  Speaker 5: intact and is not contaminated by the promises of the
• 29:14
  Speaker 5: devil or other kinds of intrusions. So whatever quote-unquote soil,
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: whatever outside influences might have gotten onto her hands in
• 29:26
  Speaker 5: the beginning of the tale, her tears are able to
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: keep restoring her to that primary connection. The access mundi
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: is one symbol of it, the ego self-access. her intuitive
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: knowledge about drawing the circle. The self is present to
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: her over and over and over again, and it protects
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: her from being contaminated by something that is not intrinsic
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: to her. And this is what individuation is.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Joseph, I really, I like that. And I
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: think it comes up again in a very, one of
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: the next scenes where she's eating the apples, even though
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: she has no hands. So the apple can be an
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: image of the self. It's round, it's red, it's glowing.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: Sometimes apples in fairy tales are golden, but not these.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: But it can be a self symbol as well.
• 30:21
  Speaker 7: And it's sweet.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: And she eats the apple. She has unmediated access to
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: the apple. She doesn't need her hands to eat the apple.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: So I think you're really onto something there. But let's
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: take for a second the image of hands and what
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: it means to lose your hands. Because I think that
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: that's a very, very important symbol. And Deb, you already
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: mentioned this keyword, agency.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we have. I think we know about hands just
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: in all of the expressions that we have about hands of,
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: you know, let me give you a hand. Somebody gives
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: someone a hand up. You know, somebody has a hand
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: in it. We have hand shakes. We have the eye-hand connection.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: The list goes on and on of how important hands
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: are as our way of operating in the world. And
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: I've always been amazed that our big reference that we've
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: mentioned so many times, the Book of Symbols, and here
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: it is, always right at hand, has on its cover
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: a hand, and it is 700 and some pages long.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: Of all the symbols that this book deals with, the
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: hand is on the cover. It's intrinsic to our sense
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: of self.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: It reminds me of the cave paintings.
• 32:00
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: That's some of the earliest cave paintings are these images
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: of hands and relief.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: There are tens of thousands of years old. And of course,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: our hands are how we manipulate things. And manipulate, the
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Latin root of that is the word for hand. So
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: it's how we manipulate in the sense, not in the
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: devious sense, but in the sense of, you know, I
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: can manipulate the coffee creamer to put cream in my
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: coffee and I can manipulate the steering wheel to drive
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: my car. It's kind of essential to just about everything
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: we do. So to lose one's hands is a real
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: loss of coming back to that word agency, our ability
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: to be instrumental in the world.
• 32:46
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: Now there's this interesting symbolic event that happens is she
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: has said, no, I don't want you to take care
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: of me with all of this wealth. I want you
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: to tie my hands behind my back and I shall
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: go out into the world and depend upon kindness to
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: care for me. That feels so complicated. There's so many
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: levels to that image. She already is missing her hands
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: and Why does she need to have her arms bound
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: behind her as well as the loss of hands and
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: reject any support from her family to cast herself out
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: into the great chance of life? What do you guys
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: make of that? How do we translate that into a
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: psychological metaphor?
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Well, on a feeling level, I mean, if your dad
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: is like that darkly abusive, it's like, I am out
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: of here.
• 33:45
  Speaker 7: I don't care if you offer me a lot of money.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: But it resonates with the tale because the father was
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: willing to sell his soul to the devil, literally. And
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: she's not. She's like, I'm not going to stay here
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: just for money and comfort. So I think it goes
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: to the point you've been making, Joseph, about her continued
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: access to the self, that it would be too compromising
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: in a way to stay there. Now, she doesn't say
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: anything like that, but there's a feeling tone to that
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: part of the tale for me.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: And I think a big theme in this tale is,
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: as in other fairy tales, is that for the development
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: of the feminine, she has to go out and be independent,
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: be on her own. Snow White gets sent off into
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: the woods, theoretically, to be killed, but is not. Snow
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: White dares to go to the ball. Psyche, in the
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: tale of Psyche and Eros, finds herself alone in the
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: wilderness after her glass palace collapses. There's many a theme
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: of the feminine needing to be alone and without the
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: support and connection in order to develop herself. And I
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: see very much of this, especially to jump ahead, of
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: those seven years in the forest, often a symbol for
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: the unconscious, without hands, without anyone except her child, that
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: you have to do it alone. That time alone in
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: solitude is also where you discover yourself.
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: I take that initiatic impulse that she could stay and
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: be dependent upon her father having been reduced to tremendous
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: dependency upon him and the devil's wealth, for that matter,
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: and the mother. And she decides that she is still
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: going to be dependent, but she's going to depend on fate,
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: depend on the kindness of the world. And she makes
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: herself even more vulnerable by strapping her arms behind her
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: so that even what she might be able to act
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: on with her forearms or in some other creative way
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: even that she takes away from herself to go out
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: into the unconscious, to go out into the forest, to
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: wander and see what kindness will bring to her. And
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: there is a danger that perhaps there is no kindness
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: in the world and that she will fail and falter
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: and pass away for lack of kindness in the world.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: So I wonder if there's some statement about presenting one's
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: vulnerability in all its fullness, and does that perhaps conjure
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: kindness from the collective or kindness from the unconscious?
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Well, there's this fundamental kind of trust in the self, right?
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, in a way, she's throwing herself, you know,
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: she's commending herself to fate, as it were, and really
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: opening herself up to the to go back to your theme, Joseph,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: the influence of the self, you know, let, let me,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: let me trust that my needs will be met. Let
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: me trust the transpersonal in a sense.
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: But before that, she has a stopping off place, uh,
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: where she is in, uh, the, the palace, uh, property
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: of a king and the prince falls in love with
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: her and they get married. Um, You know, I often
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: think about something like this as, like, if you're going
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: to climb Mount Everest, you climb up halfway to the
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: base camp and you get used to the altitude and
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: have a recovery period and a preparation period for the
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: final ascent on the summit. And so she has that
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: in this kingdom where, of course... there is going to
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: be a symbol of the masculine in the form of
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: the prince who will fall in love with her. And,
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: of course, she will get pregnant. So here's the intermediate
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: stage before getting ready and having preparation for going off
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: alone into the woods.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: You know, in some versions of the tale, the king
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: makes her these silver hands.
• 38:52
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: And that's not in the version that we read today.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: But that idea, Deb, I like your idea of base camp.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: I think it's Marie-Louise von Franz who calls the silver
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: hands a provisional adaptation. And I think that her time
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: with the king is just that. It's like the wound
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: has not been healed yet. But it's sort of an
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: intermediary place. It's a kind of provisional adaptation. And we
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: can relate to that in our own lives. You know,
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: when we're on our life quest, there may be times
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: that we can look back and we think i didn't
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: have the answers then i was still struggling with something
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: but at least that was a kind of a respite
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: yes it allowed something maybe to move underneath the surface
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: of the waters a little bit in preparation for the
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: next leg of the journey.
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I'm also thinking of this as kind of a
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: doubling of that you have to leave these provisional adaptations.
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: First of all, she has to leave home. You know,
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: we can imagine that after this horrendous amputation, she says,
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm done, I'm out of here. But that
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: first family of origin and home, is a provisional adaptation, preparatory,
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: we hope, for adulthood, independence, going out into the world.
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: And she has a second provisional adaptation in the courtyard
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: or palace of the king and in her marriage and
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: union with the prince and having a child. But eventually,
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: she needs to do the rest of her individuation journey
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: on her own. Silver hands are not good enough. Maybe
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: better than having no hands at all, but they don't move,
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: they're hard, they really don't do the job. Eventually... Whatever
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: we do, we have to do with ourselves, by ourselves.
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: What do you think that the prince represents? The prince
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: is able to recognize value.
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: In the young woman.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: The king finds her easy to dismiss, perhaps even punish.
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: But it's the prince that rather quickly can see into
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: what's happening here and eventually falls in love with her
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: and chooses her as his mate. But the king is
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: unable to see that initially.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is another kind of part of
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: the tale where there are different versions because sometimes it's
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: the prince's mother who doesn't like her and there's a
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: kind of like mother-in-law theme. But, yeah, certainly the prince
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: is able to, I like what you said, Joseph kind
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: of recognized her value. He's an image of the positive
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: animus that really catalyzes sort of the beginning of the
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: healing process. You know, there's a fertility to their marriage.
• 42:26
  Speaker 7: You know, she has a child.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: But he is also easily duped, isn't he? A little
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: bit like her father. You know, the devil comes along.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: The devil is still flitting around. There has not been
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: a permanent solution to this devil problem. It's still bedeviling her.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: And the devil is able to, you know, convince the
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: court and the prince that she's, you know, she's a monster, basically,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: or that she's given birth to a monster. So, you know,
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: he's a little bit too easily taken in, just as
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: her father was.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: I feel like in this version, It seems like, at
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: least initially, the young king does trust himself because he
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: gets this letter about the changeling, and his response is
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: a demand that she and the child should be protected.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: What I'm noticing is that in the first iteration, at least,
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: there is the slander is sent. Something inside the king pauses.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: you know the queen and a changeling and there's some
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: threat here but his first response is to write and
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: insist that the young feminine and his child be protected
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: until his return and what i would imagine is that's
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: a kind of healthy response that he wants to evaluate
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: what's true himself and not depend on this bizarre letter
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: the devil then interferes again trying to stop this protective
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: right um declaration from reaching.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: The court but an interesting way to possibly think about
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: it is that the devil represents um doubt and ambivalence
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: and that the switching of the letters i mean it's
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: maybe a bit of a reach but i think it
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: could be interesting to say yeah on the surface the
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: young king is like protect my wife and child but
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: really you know he's he's you know, there's some whispering
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: in his ear, like, really?
• 44:39
  Speaker 7: You know?
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: And that the switching of the letters might represent his
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: ambivalence toward the situation as well.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: And the letter banishes her. So we have this repetition
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: of this young, vulnerable feminine, and now her child, being
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: returned to the forest, being returned to the unconscious. That
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: that were she to remain in the kingdom and he
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: came home, ostensibly her hands would never have grown back.
• 45:09
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: She might have had a quality of life, but the
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: actual healing process requires her to go back to the woods,
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: go back into the deep unconscious and encounter what can
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: regenerate her and not just keep her afloat, which goes
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: to what you had said earlier about this cultural compensation
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: can kind of keep you afloat. But that's different from healing.
• 45:37
  Speaker 7: Joseph, I love that.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: That's really important, I think, that she has to go
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: back to the wilderness of the unconscious. And what she
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: meets there is the archetypal wise old man. And that's
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: the healing function. So we started off with this father wound,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: this father who's kind of in league with the devil.
• 45:57
  Speaker 7: There was the positive.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: Animus in the form of the prince, even though there
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: was still a kind of negative father in the king.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: But the ultimate healing comes from this deeply transpersonal figure,
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: the wise old man, who tells her to seek healing
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: from the tree, and there we are back at the tree.
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: And it seems that the opportunity for the tree happens
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: when she asks for mercy, and particularly, will you help
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: my child reach my breast?
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: There's something about that image that then conjures the opportunity
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: to go and wrap the arms around the tree, which
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: also means that she has to have her arms unbound
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: to be able to take this action, where in the
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: first trip into the forest, she wouldn't have been able
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: to put her arms around the tree because that was
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: pinned against her.
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: She leaves her identity as a daughter and all of
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: that dutiful sort of assent or exceeding to masculine authority.
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: She then becomes a mate and exceeds again to relationship
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: and its duties and its natural outcome in the form
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: of a baby. And then she meets the wise old man,
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: which is the transpersonal force within her that goes beyond
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: the mate and the daughter to a true self.
• 47:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: And I want to bring up here, this is a
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: story that I wrote about in my book, Motherhood. And
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: in some ways, this is sort of the keystone chapter
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: of the book and the keystone story in it because
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: there are different endings. The Italian ending is very similar
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: to this one. She has twins. They're strapped onto her back.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: She goes out into the wilderness. She comes to a
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: pool and by the pool is the archetypal wise old woman.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: And she says, would you help me? Would you lift
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: the babies off my back so that I can reach
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: down and drink or Would you get me a cup
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: so that I can drink? And if I lean into
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: the water, the babies are going to tumble into the water.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: And the woman says, do it yourself. She reaches down
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: and she's drinking from the pool. And indeed, her children
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: topple off her back and into the pool. And she says,
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: help me, help me. My babies are going to drown.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: And the wise old woman says, plunge in your stumps.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: And she does, and that's the moment her hands grow back. So, Joseph,
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: to your point about somehow the growth is potentiated by
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: her holding the baby to the breast, I think the
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: Italian version is even a little bit more explicit that it's, well,
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: the way I discuss it in my book, there's lots
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: of ways to understand it. But in motherhood, I talk about, like,
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: sometimes when we're wounded, we can't sort of do something
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: for ourselves, right? But when we have kids, suddenly we
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: reclaim the agency. we heal those wounds to protect them.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: So that's always been a very, very moving version of
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: the story for me.
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: And that really, I think you're landing on it because
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: she is submitting to so many different things. It's like,
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: you know, She says, you know, I didn't come here
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: to be queen. If you want to banish me, fine.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: I don't have any luck. I haven't asked for anything.
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: Send me out into the forest again. The father says,
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: let me take care of you. She goes, no, bind
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: my arms. I'll just go into the forest and see
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: what happens. But you're absolutely right that the directness that
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: this is the time she actually looks at someone and
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: she makes a request.
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: That's very definitive. Please show me some mercy.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: And as I'm scanning through the rest of the dream,
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: I don't think she makes a request.
• 50:14
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 50:15
  Speaker 7: Right. She never asks for anything else.
• 50:18
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:18
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: So I think you're quite right that being called to
• 50:23
  Speaker 5: tend this new life is, gives her permission to want
• 50:28
  Speaker 5: things and permission to ask for things.
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: And everything changes after that.
• 50:35
  Speaker 7: Absolutely. That's a great point.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: And of course, the baby could be symbolic of a
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: new creative venture or a new attitude. It doesn't have
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: to be an actual child. But in my experience, You know,
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: even in my personal experience, there were things, and women
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: I worked with too, there were things I didn't figure
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: out how to do for myself that when my kids
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: came along, I was like, I'm going to figure this out.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: So I think it works on that level as well.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: I also wanted to just talk about the servant for
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: a second at the end, because he's a very interesting
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: shadow figure, isn't he? He kind of knows where to go.
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: He is the first one that says, huh, there's something
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: very familiar about this woman that's in the window over there.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: When they arrive at the house, the moon is shining,
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: and they saw the queen standing in the window. So
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: there's something about the archetype of the moon that in
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: dreams or art, where the moon is figural, we know
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: that the unconscious is highly present, that we are in
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: the realm of the unconscious. And being made visible by
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: the moon, because ostensibly she wouldn't be seen otherwise, that
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: there is some cosmic activation that allows the queen to
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: be seen. Because without that, they might have easily passed
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: and not seen her at all. It's like it shines
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: a spotlight on her as she is framed so specifically.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: So there is this fateful alignment of the cosmos to
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: make sure that she is seen and visible. There's something
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: also that she's able to integrate from the wise old man,
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: who may be a symbol of the self, just as
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: the circle was a symbol of the self. He gives
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: her instructions on how to vet the things that come
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: to her, because that's something that the father can't teach her.
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: because whoever shows up, he'll cut a deal and.
• 52:46
  Speaker 5: Not know what's going on, that there is a lot
• 52:49
  Speaker 5: of lack of discrimination that's happening earlier in the tale.
• 52:55
  Speaker 5: So one of the things that the self provides, as
• 52:57
  Speaker 5: well as telling her where to go to be healed,
• 53:01
  Speaker 5: is he gives her some really good advice. Don't let
• 53:05
  Speaker 5: people access you unless you see these signals. And here,
• 53:11
  Speaker 5: relative to this idea of godliness and not being part
• 53:16
  Speaker 5: of the world of the devil, there is this invocation that,
• 53:20
  Speaker 5: for God's sake, in the name of God, allow me
• 53:25
  Speaker 5: to enter, allow me access to you. And so this
• 53:30
  Speaker 5: decisive quality of sanctification, of consecration, and that she's introduced
• 53:38
  Speaker 5: to that being the criteria that must be met before
• 53:41
  Speaker 5: you allow someone to access you. That seems like very
• 53:45
  Speaker 5: specific advice. Another way of saying that is, don't get
• 53:51
  Speaker 5: involved with people that don't have a relationship to the self.
• 53:55
  Speaker 5: Like if they can't speak the language of the self,
• 53:58
  Speaker 5: if they can't signal to you that the self is
• 54:01
  Speaker 5: important to them. In the name of the self, will
• 54:04
  Speaker 5: you allow me to access you, to enter? Because she
• 54:09
  Speaker 5: has earned, through great suffering and also her own intrinsic nature,
• 54:15
  Speaker 5: this relationship to the self. And someone who is equally
• 54:20
  Speaker 5: yoked to the self is a reliable partner.
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: I think that is the.
• 54:28
  Speaker 4: Sort of the essential or central psychic fact of fairy
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: tales in general, that a coming into consciousness and a
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: realization of the reality and the centrality of the self,
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: the coming into greater wholeness and recognition that there is
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: something greater in us running through us, available to us
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: that we really need to honor.
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: What do you guys make of that last scene where
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: the little boy, the son, goes to the king, the
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: young king, takes his hand, and then connects him back
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: with the queen, with his wife? What do you think
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: the son represents such that he is inserted into that reunion?
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's I mean, he's played this important
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: role that we just talked about, about somehow kind of
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: he he is the thing that kindles the renewal and
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: the healing and that that she has been changed by that. And,
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: you know, the king, the young king or prince or
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: whoever he is, is going to meet her now as
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: as a changed person and the new standing king. and
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: a kind of new orientation to things because she has
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: been able to be generative in that way.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: I also think that the anima and the animus are
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: linking functions. That the ego, whether it's a male or
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: female ego, the ego can't interact with the collective unconscious safely.
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: And so we need these intermediary functions that we then
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: imagistically call the anima animus. now has given birth to
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: this young animus that is intimately hers. I mean, it
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: comes from her. It's not a borrowed animus of the
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: father or even the prince.
• 56:35
  Speaker 7: Or the king.
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: This is part of her. And this healthy, skipping, happy,
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: whole little animus, or we might even think of it
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: as an image of the cherub or eros, but the
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: animus shows up, takes, the dad and the mom or
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: the masculine and the feminine and puts them together in
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: that linking function, that he is required, so to speak,
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: to find her and for them to be reunited.
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: So if we think of the child as Eros or Cupid,
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: which is this god of relatedness, that is also part
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: of the healing process which allows them then To move
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: on to the next part of their life journey.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: Well, or to live happily ever after, which is what
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: they tend to do. You know, just to sum up,
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: before we move to the dream, I just want to
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: read this really great quote from Marie-Louise von Franz. She says,
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: that hundreds of tales and thousands of repetitions with a
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: musician's variations are needed until this fact is delivered into consciousness.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: And even then, the theme is not exhausted. And that
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: fact is the psychological reality of our essential potential for wholeness.
• 58:13
  Speaker 7: The self.
• 58:14
  Speaker 5: The self.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: And with that, maybe we can see if we can
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: find the self in a dream.
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: Which makes me think for a moment that Finding the
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: self can also happen in dream school. Dreams are always
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: tapping us, gently ringing, pointing, providing maps, giving us compasses,
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: beckoning to us, telling us where to go to find
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: the self. In the busyness of the outer world, it
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: can be very difficult to discriminate these signposts from the self.
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: Our dreams every night are doing that. So joining us
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: in dream school is a way of cordoning off an area,
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: or like the handlers made them, going into the forest
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: to find the thing that's necessary.
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: And your dreams.
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: Are the thing that can lead you correctly.
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: Our dreamer this week is a woman who's 31, and
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: she's a filmmaker, and she has entitled her dream Wave Danger.
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: Here's the dream. It's a nice gray day, and I'm
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: on the beach talking to my mother, who sits relaxed
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: in a beach chair. I walk away, then I'm in
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: a house, seemingly my house, near the shore. I close
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: the sliding glass door and look to my husband, who's
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: sitting on the couch turned away from me. In the dream,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 4: my husband is represented by a friend of mine whom
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: I haven't spoken to.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 7: In over a year.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: While looking at the back of his head, a wave
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: crashes on our back porch and a bit of water
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: gets inside the house. I giggle, saying, oops, and attempt
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: to close the door again, which bounces open a few inches.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: each time I try to shut it and lock it.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: More waves are crashing, getting bigger. I'm confused, thinking, what
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: the heck, as I keep attempting to keep the door closed.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: I keep looking to my husband, who is lost in
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: focused thought, never making eye contact with me. Then a
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: huge wave comes up, and as I'm holding the door closed,
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: I remember my mother is outside on the shore, and
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: I start to panic. I want my husband to go
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: and save her. I yell his name, but he still
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: doesn't look at me. I yell again, nothing. Then, finally,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 4: a third time I yell his name as the wave
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: soars by our window, seemingly never ending. I wake up,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: my heart pounding. For context, she says, I am pregnant,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: due in about three months. My husband and I are
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: both freelancers. I've been the breadwinner for the past couple
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: of years and we're getting nervous about him being able
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: to work enough so I can take time off to
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: be with the baby. We are also finally getting some
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: momentum with directing our own feature films and I feel
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 4: both excited and stressed at the timing, wondering if I'll
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: be able to enjoy or even physically handle the thing
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: I typically love because I also do want to dedicate myself.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: to the baby girl. The main feelings in the dream,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: she says, at first lighthearted, easygoing, peaceful, then a sudden
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 4: panic when I realized my mom is in danger. For
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: additional context, she says, the person who visually represents my
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: husband in the dream was my closest friend before meeting
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: my husband. He was my neighbor and we've known each
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: other for years. I'd spend nearly every day at his
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: house either working, meditating together, or watching movies. It was
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: never romantic, but he always felt like a significant figure
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: in my life. I admired his shameless selfishness. He always
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: shows his own desires and drives over everything. My mother
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 4: and I have made it over the hump of a long,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: rough patch, but our relationship still isn't terribly deep, though
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: I've made peace with that.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 7: She was a.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: Very loving mom in many ways, and I care about her,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: though there are things I want to do differently. I
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: love the beach and swimming in the ocean. It's always
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: brought me centeredness and peace. So this is a real,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 4: this dream has a real arc, right? It starts off
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: with this kind of, it's interesting, she says it's a
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 4: nice gray day, because usually we don't think of gray
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 4: days as nice, so I noticed that right away. So
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: there's a little bit of a hint maybe that not
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 4: everything's so great, but there she is on the beach
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: and she's, you know, talking to her mom.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 7: And then it just builds with this crescendo.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, if we look at the dramatic structure of
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: the dream, right, there's this development and then it comes
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: up to this crisis and there is no resolution. There's
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: no license. There's just this sense of kind of catastrophe,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: but that's not even really verified. But I think that
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: one of the themes in this dream, and there are several,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: but one of the themes in the dream is being
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: afraid of losing the mother. And I think that, you know,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: it might relate to her mother complex, her actual mother.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: But I think in this sense, it might relate to
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: her fears.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 7: Very normal.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: This is sort of a normal pregnancy dream in a way.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: A fear of not being in contact with a mother
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: archetype once the baby comes. Like, is she she's obviously
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: thinking a lot about what kind of mother she wants
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: to be, how the baby's going to fit into her life,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: all very normal things when you're pregnant. And there's a fear.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: In a sense, the dream is an expression of a
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: fear that she's going to lose the tether to the
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: sort of mother archetype which is constellating in her in
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: this pregnancy. And there are different ways to look at that,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: but that's one way maybe.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 4: You know, in a way, I wonder if this dream
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 4: kind of echoes the fairy tale that we were talking about.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: that our dream ego here winds up really on her own. First,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: she's with her mother on the beach, relaxed, talking. And
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: then our dream ego, our heroine, is in the house
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 4: being inundated by the great unconscious of the ocean. the
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: great generative and destructive sea, that at first is not
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 4: a big deal, just a little bit of water gets inside,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: and then it gets to be more and more and more.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: And then she yells to her husband. She wants him
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: to go out and find her mother and save the mother.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: She shouts three times. And then she wakes up. But
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: there she is in the house. Maybe this is a reach,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: but analogous to that hut that the handless maiden was
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 4: in in the forest. She is alone in the house
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: with the ocean outside. Her mother is off somewhere. Her
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 4: husband is off somewhere. It's you in your dwelling alone
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: with your pregnancy and all of the inundation that impending
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: motherhood brings with it. It is a huge initiation in
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 4: the final analysis of not just the real world considerations,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 4: as she mentions, of will we be able to make
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: it as freelancers? Will there be enough money? Can my
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: husband support us? Can I be with the baby? But
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 4: how huge it is to know that you're about to
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 4: be a mother and this child is in your care,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: in your body as a nursing infant, an utterly dependent
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: human being, and in some way you are in it alone.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: This is yours to do.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 3: I think that really sums it up perfectly, Deb. I
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: think of the ocean being like The pregnancy, and like
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: the experience of being a new mother, particularly with the
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: first child, there's so much fantasy material leading up to
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: the birth of the first child, all of it's generally idealized.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: But the forces, archetypal and biological, that are activated are unstoppable.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: And there's no kind of polite knocking at the door,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: you know, hello, pregnancy here, you know, like, You know,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: that doors fling open and water crashes in and that
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: everything is getting rearranged and whatever you thought it was
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: going to be like, there's a force far greater than you.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: It's going to make that decision for you. What I
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: think also of the, quote unquote, the biological mother perhaps
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: being swept away, although we don't know that, is that
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: until she has her first child, she is still the
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: daughter of someone.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: And so the mother ostensibly being swept away really captures
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: that feeling that she is now the mother and her
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: role as being the daughter to someone is fading fast,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 3: if not being swept right out to sea. Because she's
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: got to carry all of it, just as you were saying, Deb.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: This is for you. And to submit to this enormous, churning,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: process that is ancient and unstoppable.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: You know, if I can just kind of return to
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: my thesis for a second, because I want to build
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: it out a bit more, that somehow the dream is
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: personifying this conflict about what's it going to be like
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: to be a mother? Will I be able to stay
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: in touch with the mother archetype as a mother? It's
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: interesting because in the dream version of her life, she
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: has married selfishness. Now, I like the fact that she
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: has a friend who's selfish and that she can look
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: to him and say, huh, Look at how he's making
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: his decisions, you know, because I think, you know, as
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: Edinger said, a lot of us have to learn how
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: to be constructively selfish. And so this feels important to
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: me that she's done this thinking about this figure. But
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: I wonder if the dream expresses some anxiety about, hey,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: if I'm too selfish, then maybe everything will just get
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: swept out to sea. For example, if the baby comes
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: and I can't make any time for the baby, And
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: I'm so busy doing this other thing that I like.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: That might really be a dangerous kind of situation. I mean,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: she's asking him for help and he's sitting on the
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: couch like he hasn't even heard her. So it's about
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: having a kind of right relationship with selfishness. And new
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: motherhood certainly challenges that. Because if there's ever a time
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: in your life when you pretty much have to set
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: aside your own needs, boy, it's those first few months.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: Because I think that in her context, when she says
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: that she's been the breadwinner in the family and she
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: would like the husband to become more of her provider,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: but is unsure that transition will happen, it also captures
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: some of the urgency in the dream where she's crying
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: out his name and needs him to take an action.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: In the outer world, the action might be get a
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: high-paying job or take some of these financial responsibilities off
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: my shoulders. And he's not able to, or at least
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 3: the dream figure is not able to respond or is
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: caught in something else. So again, it's all in her hands.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: But I think the impending birth ends whether or not
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: the husband is able to respond in the way that
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: she is hoping. is left very uncertain, which brings us
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: again back to Deb's observation, like this is.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 5: In your hands.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 4: It really is.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: And maybe the husband will do what you hope, but
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: maybe not.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: And maybe your mom will be helpful or maybe not.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: But the thing that's sure is that ocean's on the way.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 4: It's initiatory. Yeah, this impending childbirth is initiatory. And we
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 4: would like to feel that our husband is there to
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 4: support us, that our mother is there to support us.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 4: And in the dream, you know, mom is off somewhere.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 4: We don't know quite what's happened to her. The dream
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: figure of the husband who looks like this friend is
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 4: also not responsive. And it does really represent and show
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 4: the truth of this is going to be your experience.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 4: You are the one who is going to give birth
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 4: to this baby. And I want to say, you can.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 4: Many millions and millions of women have found something of
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 4: themselves always in the experience of childbirth. That will be
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 4: yours to have lived and to know soon.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: And we certainly wish this dreamer the best with her
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: upcoming initiation.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 4: We really do.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. To submit a dream, suggest an episode topic,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: or join our mailing list, visit our website, thisjungianlife.com.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 7: Thank you.