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Fiction Author Troy Lambert on Using Plottr to Improve Your Storytelling · The Daily Writer

0:06
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Writer Starter Kit, visit DailyWriterLife.com.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: No matter what type of books or content you write, you are a storyteller.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Fiction, memoir, business books, blog posts, podcasts, kids books, you name it, they all require great storytelling.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm really excited today to bring you this conversation with Troy Lambert, the education lead of Plotter, which is software to improve your storytelling.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Now I had heard of Plotter a while back, and I've been curious about it for some time, so it's a privilege to interview one of the members of their team to find out exactly how this incredible tool works.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Troy is a freelance writer, author, and editor, and he's written over 30 novels and several works of nonfiction.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Troy is also a huge fan of the Big Lebowski, and he's known to some people as the plot dude.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: So if you've seen the Big Lebowski, you'll understand what that reference means.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: In this conversation, you'll learn about the main features of Plotter and how it can make your writing more fun and effective.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: We also dig into how to use it for a variety of writing genres and styles, including nonfiction.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: And if by the end of the conversation you're inclined to give plotter a try, they have a free trial with a 30-day money-back guarantee.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: You can check it out at plotter.com.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: That's P-L-O-T-T-R.com.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: And you can find out more about Troy and his writing at Troylambertwrites.com.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: And as always, there will be links to those in the show notes.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: So let's get right to the conversation with Troy Lambert on using plotter to improve your storytelling.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Here we go.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Troy, it's great to have you here on the show.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: Appreciate you guys from Plotter Connecting, and I'm so excited to have this conversation today.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: It's wonderful to be here, and thanks for having me.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: I remember uh a little while back, somebody from your team, I don't remember if it was you or somebody else, reached out and I had heard of Plotter, but I had not had the opportunity to talk to anybody from the actual team about this.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: So I'm really glad to do this because as somebody who is a working writer myself and also uh I was a college professor for a long time.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: So I'm very much in the teaching vein.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: Uh as somebody who works with writers a lot now, I'm really excited to dive into this super cool resource that people just kind of keep it keeps popping up all over the place.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: In fact, somebody, this has been just a couple weeks ago, somebody said, Hey, have you heard of this thing called Plotter for writers?
2:43
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yep, I'm talking to them in a couple of weeks on my podcast.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: So that was kind of fun.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: So um, so let's maybe start here.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: Give us an overview of what exactly plotter is and how it can benefit writers.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: So there's really two aspects to plotter that are probably the most important things.
3:02
SPEAKER_01: There's all kinds of detailed features and stuff that go with each one.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: But the first one is primarily it's a visual outlining tool.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: So think of like a corkboard or a whiteboard, but on steroids and digitally.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Um you can organize things with tags and um basically lay out the order and the priority of the scenes in your novel.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: You can add in all kinds of details.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: There's all kinds of really cool things you can do, but primarily it's a visual outlining software.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: Um that's the first feature.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: The second one is it also acts as a series bible um software.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: So you can house all your characters, your settings, the description of all of those things in your in one plotter file.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: So you can contain your entire entire series there, um, which saves you tons and tons of time and effort.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, I know writers that have paid people to go back and create a series bible of their series because it's that important.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: Um because you don't remember in book one what color were Susie's eyes.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: Well, I have no idea.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, I've written four books since then.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: So instead, you can just go back and look.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: And so if she suddenly pops up in book four, you have a reference for what she looks like, what was her personality like, what role did she play in that book?
4:16
SPEAKER_01: What role does she play in this book?
4:17
SPEAKER_01: How does that differ?
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Um so that series bible, the planning process, and then the series bible are probably the two biggest features that are the most important.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: Now, how would somebody move away from or should they move away from?
4:32
SPEAKER_00: Let's say if they're create if they're crafting their books in Google Docs or Scrivener or something else, is this something where you're going to basically transfer everything into plotter or just the outline and the visual component?
4:45
SPEAKER_01: Just the outline and the visual component.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: So for me, like I use Scrivener for the writing process.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: So I actually export my plotter outline that I planned initially into Scrivener.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then now there's a feature where you can import back into Plotter from Scribner.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: So if I change things during the writing process, I'd be sure I change the summary over on those little index cards in Scribner.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: And if you're a Scrivener user, you know what I'm talking about.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: And if you don't, you know, you don't know what I'm talking about, it doesn't matter.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, if I change those summaries and I import that back into plotter, I can see what did I intend to write, what did I actually write, and how do those two things stack up?
5:25
SPEAKER_01: So I'm checking my homework basically.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: How did I do?
5:28
SPEAKER_01: How did I do with my writing process?
5:30
SPEAKER_00: So so what does maybe this is kind of a dumb question on the surface, but but maybe it's not so dumb.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: Is what what problems are what what are the main writing problems that plotter is actually solving for writers?
5:46
SPEAKER_00: Does it mostly have to do with efficiency and processes getting in the way?
5:50
SPEAKER_00: And this is just eliminating those barriers.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a part of it.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: Another part of it is by seeing things visually.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: So I use plotter with my editing clients too, because the thing that I can do is I pull their plot apart, I put it on a plot line, and then I point to somewhere and I say that is a plot hole.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: And because it's visual, they can't go, well, you know what I meant to say there was this and that or whatever, because it's visual, it's in a summary format.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: So I say, No, that is a plot hole.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Or why is this scene here?
6:21
SPEAKER_01: There's no goal, motivation, conflict, there's no really reason for this scene to be here.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: And because they can visually see that summary in conjunction with other parts of their story, they can go, oh, I get it.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: It's hard to deny when it's visual right there in front of you.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Um so there are features in plot or like the outline feature.
6:40
SPEAKER_01: We can filter by plot line and just look at one plot line at a time in kind of an outline format.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: And by going through that, I can plot spot hole plot plot holes before they happen.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, so before I even write it, I can see, oh, that's gonna be a problem there.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: I didn't really make that connection.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Or there's a clue there as a mystery writer, there's a clue there that I never resolved.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: I need to resolve that at some point.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's partly about that efficiency, but it's also about just solving issues of like writer's block, what do I write next?
7:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, I've already got a plan.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, where's a plot hole here that and where how can I fix that?
7:19
SPEAKER_01: And you can visually see that and determine what you're gonna do beforehand.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: Sounds like anything that we can do to take away those obstacles to making the process more fun and efficient is really a good thing, for sure.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: Because I tell people, you know, even so writers have two different kinds of ideas.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: You'll hear writers all the time say, I have enough ideas that I can write for the rest of my life, right?
7:42
SPEAKER_01: And I do too.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm never gonna finish all of them.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: If you want some ideas, come tell me, I'll give you some of mine because I'm not gonna have time to write them, right?
7:50
SPEAKER_01: But there's a difference between those big ideas, those concept ideas of a book, and the small ideas, which is what happens in the next chapter.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: And so part of what plotter does is helps you think of not just the big concept, but the small ideas.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: What happens next?
8:05
SPEAKER_01: And that's where writer's block a lot of times comes from.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: Is go, well, oh now I've written myself into this corner and I don't know where I'm going.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: And plotter can help you decide this is where I need to go from here.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: So, how would people use this with other types of writing not that that aren't just fiction-based?
8:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, so I'm a ghostwriter, I do a lot of nonfiction business and personal development books, narrative nonfiction, those kinds of things.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, could plotter be a useful tool for those kinds of people, also?
8:34
SPEAKER_01: Oh, for sure.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: So I do a lot of ghostwriting too, and there's there's basically two types that I do.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: And what some of it is that narrative memoir, I have a story, an incredible story of these things that happened to me, and I'm gonna write that story.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: So that's a story.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: Clearly, that's a story.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: And within that story, there are characters and there are settings, just like there are with any fiction story, right?
8:55
SPEAKER_01: You kind of have to stick it in some ways, it's harder because you have to stick to reality.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: I can't just make something up that happened next.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, I kind of have to stick to what actually happened in this person's life.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: But in as far as business books and things like that, really, a business book most of the time is a hero's journey, and your reader is the hero.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: You're taking them on a journey from the problem they have or whatever issue it is that you're presenting that you can solve, and you're presenting that problem until about the midpoint of the book, and then you're saying, by the way, here's the solution, and this is the journey you take to solve the issues that you have.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: And so it's a it's still an outline, it's still a hero's journey, it's still a plot, per se.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: It's just the the hero is the person reading the book.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, that's the journey you want to take them on.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: And so you can use plotter to identify those concepts, identify that story arc and say, okay, am I actually because often when you read a business book and it kind of falls flat, and what really falls flat is you never really presented what problem this was solving.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, you you gave me some cool advice, but you didn't really identify at the beginning what the problem was, right?
10:07
SPEAKER_01: And when we clearly identify that in the beginning, then what if at the end, if we reach a satisfy satisfactory conclusion, it's because we've taken them through this journey to a solution to that specific problem or set of problems, whatever that may be.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: So in my mind, almost no matter what book it is, it's a story, it's just a matter of the kind of construction of that story.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: That that totally makes sense.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: And I love that way of looking at a business book, too.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: And you're exactly right.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times the reason that nonfiction books don't work as well as they could is because the author hasn't identified a core problem that they're solving.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: And really, I I guess every story on some level is a um every story concerns a problem that has to be solved in some way, whether that has to do with finding a lost love or reuniting with somebody or you know, defusing the bomb or defeating uh you know the Sith Lord or or whatever it is.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm I'll give you an example.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm ghostwriting, like when I ghostwrite a memoir, what I always tell people is you have to have a story, right?
11:16
SPEAKER_01: If it's just a series of events that happen in your life, honestly, in the end, your kids don't even really care that much about that.
11:22
unknown: Right.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: They're gonna read it once and put that on a shelf, right?
11:25
SPEAKER_01: But it has to be a story, so you have to have a core thing that this is the key, this is your goal as a character for this period of time.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: And usually it doesn't involve your whole life.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: You didn't have that goal at birth necessarily, or that challenge at birth.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: And you're your life is spent overcoming that.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: And hopefully, by the end of your memoir, we've come up with a satisfactory conclusion, right?
11:46
SPEAKER_01: And there's a journey along the way.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: You've tried things that you failed, and we need to include those in your book.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: We just can't talk about you going from victory to victory because it's not that's not entertaining, that's not the type of story that people want to hear.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: So it's it is a challenge because you do want to create an actual story with nonfiction.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: It's not about just relating a series of events or giving a series of bullet points advice.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: It's about creating that story, and it's really, really important.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Those are the most successful memoirs and books out there, really.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's this is that's a really good uh that's a really good point.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: I'd never thought of it in those terms before, that really every type of book is somebody's story.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: So, like if you are writing fiction, you're telling a fiction story of that character or that character.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, if you are writing a memoir, you're telling your story.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: You are the hero in your own story versus you're making up a hero in their story.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: If you're writing um like business non-fiction, you're really telling the reader's story because they're the ones that's taking that hero's journey.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: So, really, you can apply that hero's journey concept to basically everything.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: It just the type of genre that it is determines on who the hero is and what your role as the author is, I suppose.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things we have in plotter is we have plot templates, story structure templates.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: But the more you study story structure, so the more I study story structure, and I'm a total story structure nerd.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: If you come out with a story structure book, I'm gonna read it.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: Even if it's terrible, I'm gonna read it and figure out what what your take on story structure is.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: But what we find is that all those story structures have more in common than they have that are different.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: The differences between them is usually the language that's used that fits with the mindset of the writer writing that genre.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: So if we look at the three-act structure and the hero's journey and romancing the beat, they all have essentially the same beats within them.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: It's just that some of the beats in romancing the beat is geared more towards a romance writer.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: Like what kind of language do they use and understand that I can make them understand a three-ac structure?
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Even though it says it's a four-act structure, it's not.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: It's a three-ac structure with act two split in half.
14:04
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, that's another that's another digression, right?
14:06
SPEAKER_01: But it's set it's set up for romance writers in the language and the terminology and the tropes that they understand, right?
14:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: But if you step back and high-level view analyze it, it's a three-ac structure.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that really does make a lot of sense.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: Totally makes sense.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm curious if we can hear a little bit of your backstory.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: Speaking of uh the journeys of heroes, um what is your journey into being really interested in story structure and also being a writer yourself?
14:39
SPEAKER_00: And how did all that lead you to get involved with plotter?
14:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm always very, I mean, I'm interested in writing resources and tools and apps and all that stuff, but I'm also really interested in how do people get involved with certain things and what what's the journey that led you there?
14:54
SPEAKER_01: That's really interesting because I was one of those kids that I wanted to be a writer from the time I was a kid.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: I knew I wanted to be a writer, but all of the experts of my high school counselors, all of those people were like, that's really nice and that's a cute dream, but it's impossible, you're never gonna make it.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: And so I believed them because, of course, they were experts, right?
15:13
SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, experts.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's why I get really when people discourage people's dreams, I get really, like, really excited, really upset about it.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: Because um, I basically tell people I wasted, you know, three decades of hairnets and name tags and various careers.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: And then at some point I just was like, I have to figure out this writing thing, or I don't know what I'm gonna do with the rest of my life.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: Nothing else is is filling that hole and satisfying that.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so if you're one of those people that you can't help but write, just you just gotta figure it out.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's just the way that it works.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I started writing, um, and I I had some advantageous things that happened with my freelance writing career and stuff like that that enabled me to move forward in ways that other people didn't.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, my first few fiction novels were relatively successful.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, so and part of that was because I'd spent 30 years writing really crappy stuff.
16:07
SPEAKER_01: And um, so I started along this writing journey, and initially I was a pantster, I just wrote, you know, I would have an idea and I'd just start writing.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, but as I got further into my career, I'd be like, well, you know what would make this book writing process faster is if I knew how this book ended.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: So I would plot out the last part of the book, and then I move forward and I'd plot out more of the book, and then I started reading books on story structure.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: I was like, wow, this makes a lot of sense.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: And it makes my stories better, and it makes my first draft better, and makes it faster for me to write and more efficient.
16:37
SPEAKER_01: And since I wanted to do this for a living, and the more I progressed in the right in my writing career, also, the faster it became that you needed to write books.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: You know, um, it publishing has always been about what have you done for me lately, but that went from like, what have you done in the last two years to what have you done in the last six months over the last several years?
17:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, so it's like, what do you you're it's it's just this constant churn.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, well, if I want to do this for a living, I need to learn to do this better.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, but when I saw Plotter, I was using Scrivener and I was using a bunch of other planning methods, but I I didn't like planning in Scrivener, it just didn't work for me very well.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: So I was using cork boards and I tried mind mapping software and all this other stuff.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: And I was at a writer's conference, and a friend of mine came out of the dealer room and said, You got to buy this software.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I do because I'm not really good at doing what you tell me to do, you know.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: So it was like, so I walked in, I looked at it.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: Under 10 minutes, I bought it.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, so I was one of like the first hundred or so users in the country because like this the guy that developed it, it just like he developed it for himself and his friends, and then his friends said, You should sell this.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: So he'd just gone to a writer's conference and said, Maybe I'm gonna sell this.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Okay, I'm in.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: And so the next day he emailed me and said, Hey, what would you like to see in the software?
17:54
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, here's a list of what I would like to see in the software that would really help me out.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: And um, we kind of continued that relationship.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: And then when Plotter, that was in like 2017-ish, something like that.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: And then when Plotter did a re launch in 2020, Ryan Z, who's of book sweeps and stuff like that, came on board and really started to ramp up the marketing.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: And he came to me and he said, Hey, you do lots of stuff for plotter.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Yeah, because I like it.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: And he says, Well, how would you like to be our education lead?
18:22
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Sure, having no idea where that would go from that tiny little thing it was then to what it is now.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that's how I got involved with plotter because I was already I was studying story structure, I was already interested.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: So, I'm like, how can we incorporate this into this cool little software to make my life easier?
18:41
SPEAKER_01: And it so it was really a selfish pursuit initially that turned into like now I'm teaching writers everywhere, all kinds of stuff about plot structure, um, through the vehicle in part of plotter.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: So it's not that I just teach people, you know, here's how you use this software, but I'm like, instead, I want to go.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: This is why story structure matters.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: This is how these things can help you be a better writer and write faster more efficiently and have more fun, and that which is really what it's all about for me.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: See, I love that because uh it's it's really cool that you started out as just a fan of Plotter and an actual user who was just involved with the creators, and then you got involved, you know, like in a career capacity after that.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: I just think that's really exciting.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it's been really fortunate in that like I didn't plan this.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Like, people like, how did you?
19:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I didn't this was not on my job career plan.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: This was not, you know, the direction I was headed.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I was teaching writers more, but not in this way.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: But what it's enabled me to do as as a writer is just develop a more robust way to show people like this is how this works.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: And I do it through using a software that I happen to love.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: But it's it's more about that educational piece of going, no matter what software you use, you can still listen to this and and determine this is how story structure works and how it might help me.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: And if you want to do that in Word or an Excel file, god forbid, then you know I can't even imagine I know people that do it.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, you know, if if that's the way you need to do it, that's great.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, the primary thing is learn to do these things and make your life better as a writer.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned before I hit record on this.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh, did I hit record on this?
20:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I did.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: I just had a moment of panic.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: I thought, oh my gosh, did I freaking hit record?
20:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh I've done that before.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: It's not a that's not a pretty thing.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, you mentioned before I hit record on this, Troy, that you actually use plotter for schedule planning.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: And I'm interested to hear all about that and how you use it for schedule planning.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: So um what I initially started to do was I I looked at it and I'm like, I've used other project management software like Asana and stuff like that.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: But I thought, you know what?
20:56
SPEAKER_01: My headings, instead of being chapters, could be the month of the year.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: And then down my plot lines are basically the type of like email campaign that I'm doing that month, whatever.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: And so I used it to plan out my marketing.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, okay, that's that's kind of interesting.
21:14
SPEAKER_01: And so I used to start planning other things about my schedule.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, well, this month I'm gonna be at this conference for this week, so I can go, okay, so I'm gonna have to adjust my writing goals and my word count because you know, when I'm in Vegas for a week, I'm there's no way I'm making daily word counts in in that particular time or whatever the case may be.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: So I started to use it to not only track my marketing schedule, but track some of my other speaking schedules and things like that as well, just to keep to have a quick place where I could reference and go, oh yeah, this is what I'm doing this month and and this is what I need to do.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: So I don't keep like my daily calendar.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: I have my daily calendar and stuff, but I use it to track kind of a bigger picture thing.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Because I can look at it again, visually, all in one place and go, okay, this is what's happening.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: And then what I've done with marketing too is then I have a note section.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: I use the note section in plotter to track my ROI and say, was this something I would do again or something I wouldn't do again?
22:17
SPEAKER_01: Was this worth it?
22:18
SPEAKER_01: Was it not worth it?
22:20
SPEAKER_01: You know, if I paid a hundred bucks for this promotional thing, how much did I actually make?
22:24
SPEAKER_01: Like when did this make sense?
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Um and so it helps me to go back when I'm doing future planning and go, no, not that one.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes, this one, that type of thing.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:35
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22:38
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22:56
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23:00
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23:03
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23:06
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23:13
SPEAKER_00: What is the what are some of the craziest suggestions that you've heard for features and plotter?
23:18
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm sure being on the you know the product side of things, you probably get all kinds of feedback.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: Some of it's useful, some of it's not.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: And I imagine some of it is just downright bizarre.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, we don't get a whole lot of bizarre stuff, but we do get some stuff that's just like like it's really like people go, well, I would love to be able to import my outline from Word after I've written my book.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, okay, so what part of that would import into Plotter?
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, because it would import, it seems feels like unless it was in certain format, it would just import the whole thing.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, and also like Microsoft, for whatever reason, isn't real friendly with their API for little software like us.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, we're not big enough fish for them to go, yes, here's the keys to the Microsoft Kingdom.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: So um, that's one of the things that's that's kind of interesting.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: If people would like to be able to import and export from all kinds of software, and I'm like, well, you know, I don't do the coding, but I do know that from a coding aspect that when you say that to the code developers, they get that funny face that's like, yeah, you know, like, how do you expect me to do that?
24:26
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
24:27
SPEAKER_01: So there's there's kind of that aspect of it.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: But for the most part, people make some pretty interesting suggestions that I'm like, I never would have thought of that myself.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: But as a writer, I can see how that would be useful to someone.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's just it's interesting that people like they want a lot of advanced things, and we're like, we have to develop one thing at a time.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: We would love to just I would love to just solve the world's problems and all the writing problems in one swoop.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: But also, um I will say that there's a lot of advanced features in plotter, and sometimes for people it gets intimidating.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, if it's just something that you don't need, then just don't use it.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: It's okay, just because the advanced features there, you don't have to use it.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: Like you do this with Word all the time.
25:15
SPEAKER_01: There's all kinds of advanced features in Word.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you don't ever touch, you don't even really think about them being there.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: So do the same thing with Plotter.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Use what you need.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: The stuff you don't need, don't worry about it.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: It's there for those people that really want to dive deep, but don't even worry about it.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: So so for for readers who are interested in learning more about story structures or listeners, not readers, this is a podcast, not a book.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't even know my own content, apparently.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: I have like a thousand episodes of this show.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Apparently, I don't even know what I'm talking about.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: Don't even know what you're talking about.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: What's happening?
25:44
SPEAKER_00: What day is it?
25:45
SPEAKER_00: What are we doing?
25:45
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what year this is half the time.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: So for those who who want to learn more about story structure, are there any any particular books or resources that have been really helpful to you in learning about how to tell a better story and how stories are structured, hero's journey, those kinds of things?
26:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so what I first started with was Larry Brooks.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: I think it's called Story, Story Engineering or something like that.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: That's the Orange Book, right?
26:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the Orange Book.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's called Story Engineering, something like that.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, but another one of my favorites is Save the Cat.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: Save the Cat.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Started with the original Save the Cat, Blake Snyder, um, that was for screenwriters, really.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: But I was like, well, this totally makes sense.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, but then Save the Cat writes a novel came along, and I was like, okay, and the thing I like about that, and like some of the other things that I'm that I'm working with right now, is this data driven.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Like we have all this big data about stories, right, that we've collected over the years.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, so why do stories work?
26:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, we have data about all these best-selling stories.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, what was what kind of hero did they have?
26:52
SPEAKER_01: What kind of inciting incidents did they have?
26:54
SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
26:55
SPEAKER_01: And so um Blake Snyder, and even Blake Snyder, but now Save the Cat writes a novel, is based on studying novels, like lots of different novels, and going, what works?
27:05
SPEAKER_01: So um, a part of that is I love story structure, but I also don't want it to become restrictive to writers, right?
27:14
SPEAKER_01: So I tell you, read these books, but take what they say.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: If you like romance, read um, you know, Romancing a beat by I think it's Gwen Hayes, right?
27:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, read that book, study that book.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: It's great, right?
27:26
SPEAKER_01: But don't do math.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: Don't say, well, my romance has 72,000 words, so by word number 7,213, I have to do this particular thing.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: No, all of those things when you study those story structures are like a range of percentages and a range of word count.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: So there's there's a lot of different books.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: Some of them are based on your genre, but things like um that are kind of timeless, Million Dollar Outlines by Dave Harland.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's another one.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: That's just it's a short book, really easy to read, really easy to understand.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: But he basically says these are outlines that work and that sell.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I also tell people any story structure that you decide I really like this, go study it.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Don't just go off like the beats, even in plotter or whatever.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: We have little summaries of what the beats are supposed to be there, but that's not the in-depth learning that you probably need to really grasp like where did the story structure come from and why does it work?
28:25
SPEAKER_01: Why does it matter?
28:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know, don't be afraid to dive in deep, but you can play around with some story structures, you know, before you necessarily have you don't have to be like me and like read everything on the planet about stories.
28:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, for most people, that's probably not healthy.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: And you're probably not writing at that time.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: You know, you're just spending lots of time reading about writing, um, which is one of our favorite procrastination tools.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, yeah.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, or like I tell people plot procrastination, which means I'm outlining my book for six months um because, you know, or a year because I'm not actually gonna write it.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: I just want to write the outline.
29:04
SPEAKER_01: Like, no, no, no, no, no.
29:06
SPEAKER_01: At some point, the outline's done.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: It's time to write, you know, let's go.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or to listen to a podcast about writing.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Like this one.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: Listening to podcasts like every day.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: You can listen to one every day or more than literally.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean, literally, this is literally a show.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: So I feel like I'm enabling people's bad behavior by podcasts.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that's all right.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: I am curious about your own writing habits, Troy.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, what what are some things that have been helpful to you as a writer?
29:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, do you have a particular word camp that you shoot for on a regular basis?
29:39
SPEAKER_00: Do you get up at a certain time?
29:40
SPEAKER_00: Do you use any kind of certain tools, or what's been really helpful to you as a writer?
29:46
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's kind of interesting because I've developed a very specific process of like the way that I write books and also just kind of a scheduling process.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: So my best time is early in the morning.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, and part of that was accidental.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: Like I used to be a night owl when I was when I was younger.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: Then I went in the army, and for some reason they didn't embrace that whole night owl philosophy.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they didn't really.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: And they had these things called orders and you know, bugle calls.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, um, so you know, they were getting us up really early in the morning.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: And then when I started to write full time, I had kids at home and I had a day job.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like many people do.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: So I knew that my kids, if I stayed up late, they might come into my office and go, Dad, why can't we stay up?
30:32
SPEAKER_01: If you stay up, I want a glass of water, want a glass of milk.
30:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, my kids would not get up at 4:30 a.m.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: for something they wanted to do, let alone to bug their dad when he was writing.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: So I wrote my first novel was written in this tiny little office under our stairs that used to be a closet.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I made it into kind of an office.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: And from 4:30 to 7:30 every morning, I wrote.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: Um so now that I write full time, I don't quite have to be that restrictive, but I usually do write early in the morning.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it when it comes to planning a novel, like I have a planning process and I say, okay, this part of the process is done.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: I I have planned everything I'm gonna plan, which essentially for me is in plotter, I go through using a plot template, but I create writing prompts for what I'm gonna write every day that day.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: So there's really short little scene cards.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: I export that to Scrivener.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then as I'm writing in Scrivener, after I finish that day, I go back into Plotter and I write a summary of what I actually wrote that day.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: So I have two lines in plotter.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: This is what I plan to write, this is what I actually wrote.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Then when it comes down to the revision process, I add a plot template back in and I can basically check my work and see this is what I plan to write, this is what I actually wrote.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: This is about where the inciting incident should be.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: Am I in that neighborhood or am I way off in left field?
31:52
SPEAKER_01: Did I go way off in left field on my plan here and totally just abandon my whole plot line, or did I stick with it?
32:00
SPEAKER_01: Did I do what I was what I was planning to do?
32:02
SPEAKER_01: And so it's kind of a and then so in the revision process, then I use plotter again to just double check my work as I'm going along.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: And as I color each, you can change the color of the scene card boxes.
32:14
SPEAKER_01: I change them to green when I'm done editing each one.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: When I've edited everything across the timeline and it's all green, it's ready to go to my editor, and I just stop at that point.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not going back to edit that anymore.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: That goes off to my editor and I move on to the next project.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's cool.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: I love that process.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: Do you think sometimes part of where we get hung up as writers is that we we hear all kinds of different people talk about their processes, just like you're doing now.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: And everybody has their own process.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we get stuck because we haven't we haven't decided just to forge through the confusion that we have about how we want things to be.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: And we just kind of get hung up in the mud sometimes, rather than pushing forward and just we're just gonna keep on barreling, even though we're not quite sure we don't have our process totally down.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: It's really easy to get stuck as a writer.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: It's really easy to get stuck and to allow yourself to get stuck.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: So I tell people really the the whole goal is to get the first draft done.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: So anything in your process that makes you want to stop writing, don't do that.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: Like just don't do it.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: Do it later, whatever, figure out a way to do it in the revision process, but just don't do it.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Now it's really simple for me to say, and it's way, way harder to apply that process, right?
33:35
SPEAKER_01: But I'll have people go, oh, well, that sounds like a really cool process.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: Can I copy your process?
33:39
SPEAKER_01: I say, sure, because you're not gonna copy my process.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: You're going to, at some point, you're gonna adapt it somehow to make it your process.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: You can start with my process, certainly.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't own it, it's not that big of a deal to me.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: But eventually, what's gonna happen is you have what I call the and then moment is you say, I started with this plot structure, or I started with Troy's process, and then you say, and then.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: And that's the moment when you tell me how you took that process and made it your process.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: And that process is constantly improving.
34:12
SPEAKER_01: When I switched from writing in Word to writing in Scrivener, my process changed and improved.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: When I added plotter on top of that, my process changed and improved.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'm constantly making little process changes.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: And the longer you write, the more you're gonna do the exact same thing.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: Like you're gonna develop a process that works for you.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: Right?
34:35
SPEAKER_01: So that's really what matters is that making that process your own.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: I really wish I could get more writers to not be so intimidated about Scrivener in particular.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: I've used Scrivener for many, many years and I love it.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but universally, and I'm sure you hear this too, people just seem to feel intimidated by it a lot.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: So I almost wish they would make kind of like a Scrivener Lite or something like that.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: They're they're here's what I'll say about their user interface is pretty old at this point.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: Um and so it's not what people are used to when they look at a writing software.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: And also they have again, they have a lot of advanced features, but those advanced features for them are very much in your face.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: In Word, there's a lot of advanced features, but they're kind of just in the background, unless you know to which menu to go dig for them in, right?
35:28
SPEAKER_01: They're not really like pushing at you.
35:30
SPEAKER_01: In Scribner, they're really pushing at you.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you want to um you know uh compile this?
35:36
SPEAKER_01: Right?
35:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, most people like now I don't use that compile feature very often.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't use that.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm creating ebooks in a totally different software, right?
35:46
SPEAKER_01: So when I'm formatting, I'm not you I used to when it when that was the thing, but there be there become other easier options.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: So I don't use nearly all the features in Scribner, not even close.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: I use it for writing fiction because for me it's a psychological thing.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: I write, I do a lot of technical writing, I do a lot of editing, I do that in Word.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: So when I open Scribner, the only thing I do in there is write fiction, and my brain goes, okay, okay, now it's time to write fiction, right?
36:15
SPEAKER_01: But that also involves me going the two things, features I'm going to use the most in Scribner is the typewriter thing so that the cursor stays in the middle of my screen.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: And then I'm going to use the focus mode so that I so it kind of shuts everything else off, and I'm focused on my writing process.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: So usually during the writing process, I have plotter open on one side, one screen in case I need to reference my notes or my characters or whatever.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: And I have Scribner open on the other, and so I don't even scroll down to the character section of Scrivener because that takes me out of that writing space.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: I stay in that writing space, use plotter on the other screen to reference settings, characters, something in my plot I need to look at, whatever the case may be.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't ever leave that writing focused area while I'm in the writing process.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, it works for me.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: For some people use other software, other different things tool.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: It's whatever works for you is really what's important.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: Um but Scrivener is a is a great tool and it's cheap, but you do have to kind of get over that feature fear type thing that's always just hanging right there.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: I think there's a market for somebody to just do a like a here's a 10-minute course on Scrivener.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: You know, here's like the the three features you're gonna really get the most out of, um, you know, instead of all the stuff that it can do.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: Because it's kind of like the Cadillac of you know, of writing apps and for what it does.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: But man, I I don't know how I would ever not use Scrivener, it's just so darn useful.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've been using like I have my eye on other software that's developing, but I'm like, it's all of it is just not quite Scrivener there.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know what I mean?
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm and part of that is I've been using Scribner a long time, kind of like you have.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, I it's familiar, it's like a familiar friend.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: And so you you're really gonna have to do something that wows me to get me to go, maybe I don't need Scrivener anymore.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
38:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's gonna have to be something that's a pretty significant change.
38:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm I'm hopeful for some software, but I'm not making any changes until I'm pretty confident.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and you know, when we think about how it was like maybe 30 years ago, things are so much easier.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what what did you know what did people have back in?
38:37
SPEAKER_00: I just threw out 30 years, you know, in 1993, if you wanted to write a book, what were you doing?
38:41
SPEAKER_00: Um you were either using a typewriter or a really early version of a of a PC, probably or a word processor.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: I had some kind of word processor.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: I had a brother thing that was it was basically a typewriter keyboard with one of those monochrome green screens.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: I had one of those screens.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: It was green or blue, it was green or blue, I don't remember exactly, but all it did was word processing, and that thing was expensive at the time for what it actually did.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I and I mean I started typing on a royal when I was eight.
39:12
SPEAKER_01: Um so and because I've used all these clunky keyboards, and I took typing too in c in high school because I had nothing else to take my senior year, um, I type about 120 words a minute if I'm really in the zone, which is pretty good for a guy.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: Um there, I mean, there's some gamers out there that are faster than me, and that's cool, whatever, you know.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: Um but uh but like yeah, I mean, there's just like when I started out even, even just before Scrivener, like we're plunking around in Word.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: Um when I was in college, it was like Word Perfect 5 or something like that.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: I don't think you can even do that anymore.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard that word perfect, is like people are like, What is that?
39:54
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Yeah, don't even worry about it because you don't want to go there, like you don't even want to know.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, it was like ancient times, you know.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, so and like my first PC was just super slow, I had very little memory, you know, it takes you two discs to write a novel, you know, things like that.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's it's just wild how far technology has come.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I just you know, I'm one of those that I'm gonna continue to embrace that technology so I can write better and faster until the day I die.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just never gonna quit doing this.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: There's no such thing as retirement when you're a writer.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, Troy, this has been an absolute blast.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate your insights into plotter and your story and writing habits, story structure.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: This has been a really wide-ranging conversation, and I'm so glad that we've connected.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, how can listeners find out more about plotter, but also about your writing as well?
40:50
SPEAKER_01: So um for plotter, basically just go to www.ww.plotter.com, plotter without the e.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's uh it's really that's the easiest way to connect and to um, you know, we have a 14-day free trial.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh you can sign up, look at all the different features of the software.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: There's also all kinds of documentation.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, the two other places I tell people to go is go to our YouTube channel.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: We have tons and tons of videos um that show you not only how to use plotter, but how other people use plotter, where I've done interviews with authors and things like that about how they use plotter.
41:23
SPEAKER_01: So you can see somebody else's idea of like, so it's not just me talking.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: And then um also we have a really robust Facebook group.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: So if you're on Facebook, um you can go in there and ask pretty much any question you can imagine, and if somebody will answer it, there's somebody, some expert in that group that will answer it for you.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: I love it, I love it.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: And how about your novels if people want to check those out?
41:47
SPEAKER_01: And then for my stuff, yeah, um, my website, Troilambertrights.com, um, or just Google me.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, if I don't come up when you Google me, uh your internet is down.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, so talk to your internet service provider, and when you get it back up, my face will probably appear when you Google my name.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: So um, I'm kind of all over the place.
42:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh so you can find me, you know, Amazon, all the socials, all the places.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: All the places.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for making time to do this.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: It's been a pleasure, and um, I'm excited to hear reports on how listeners uh dig into plotter and start using it.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: So thanks again.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: Appreciate your time.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you very much for having me.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: Wasn't that a fun conversation with Troy?
42:31
SPEAKER_00: I really loved hearing more about Plotter and how it can help writers of every kind.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: So no matter if you write nonfiction or short stories or novels, or if you're working on a screenplay or if you're working on a speech, whatever you're working on, this can definitely help you.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: So give it a try.
42:47
SPEAKER_00: It's really, really fun software.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: So you can do that by going to plotter.com.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: And also, as I mentioned in the intro to this episode, make sure you check out Troy's website.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: It's really cool.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: He's got some great resources for writers.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: And you can find out more about his novels and his writing as well.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: You can do that by going to Troilambertwrites.com.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: And again, there's links to both of those in the show notes.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: As always, thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.