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What Story Are You Telling at the Threshold? · Romancing the Threshold

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Romancing the Threshold.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Vanessa Couto,
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: and today we're entering a kind of chained library,
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: one where ancient wisdom requires the right key to unlock.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: My guest,
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Ingrid Kincaid,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: recently stood in an actual chain library in Hereford Cathedral,
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: where medieval manuscripts were literally locked to the shelves,
• 0:31
  accessible only to those willing to sit and receive their medicine slowly.
• 0:36
  It's the perfect metaphor for the kind of wisdom Ingrid carries as a room
• 0:41
  reader,
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: author,
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: and self-described irreverent wise woman.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is personal for me.
• 0:49
  The things Ingrid said right after my mother died a year ago still resonate,
• 0:54
  still unfurl.
• 0:56
  Her medicine takes time,
• 0:58
  it percolates and reveals itself when you're ready.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: She's just released her third book,
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Women of the Always,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Rooted in Wisdom,
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Sourced from the Dark.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: And when a 16-year-old boy saw the cover,
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: an abstract portal in reds and maroons,
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: he looked at her and said simply,
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 1:21
  That's Ingrid,
• 1:22
  profound wisdom that crosses generations without explanation.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: In this conversation,
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: we explore what the runes teach about being in transition,
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: not just passing through.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: We unpack why romance,
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: the old word for storytelling,
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: might be the key to navigating these times of massive change.
• 1:45
  and ingrid shares something i've been sitting with how do we as gen xers and
• 1:50
  beyond
• 1:51
  learn to elder not step aside for the young to fix everything but step forward
• 1:57
  with
• 1:57
  thewisdomonlytimecanbringsosettleinthisismedicinethattakestimeto
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: unfurl so ingrid how are you doing
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm doing really well.
• 2:13
  IjustcamebackfromamonthintheUKandalwaystakesmeaboutaweektosettle
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: into time change when you're gone that long.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm always fed when I travel.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's for me.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't go as a tourist to be rushing around looking at touristy things.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: I actually like to walk and feel.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's, you know, where my ancestors come from.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's my, you know, the UK and Scandinavia are my homeland.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: So that for me is traveling there is always feeding me.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can hear that.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: I feel the same way when I travel, especially to the UK.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: I feel very much like my soul goes.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: What park?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: I was in Scotland for a while.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: I was in England and then just took about four days on the border,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: the edge of Wales and England in a town called Hay-on-Wye,
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: which is like very famous for all.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: It has 20 plus bookstores in this one little village.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a wonderful,
• 3:29
  youcouldn'tevengotoallthestoresbecauseI'dgetstuckinoneandjust
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: looking at books.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: And then I never made it to the next one kind of thing.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: And that sits right on the border of Wales and England.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds like a dream to me, a town with bookstores.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it was for me.
• 3:53
  And I also went in,
• 3:54
  there's a town,
• 3:56
  Hereford,
• 3:57
  and it has a really enormous cathedral.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: In there,
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: they have the,
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: like the original library of these ancient,
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: ancient manuscripts that are chained.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: These chained libraries,
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: they used to pull the,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: hook them not on the spine,
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: because that made them hard to take out them.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: The pages faced you and they were chained.
• 4:26
  Andtheonlywaythatyoucouldtakeitofftheshelfwouldbethattheyhadto
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: open it up with a lock.
• 4:32
  And then the book could be taken off the shelf and laid in front of you and read.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: But you couldn't steal it.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: You couldn't take it away.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:41
  And so that was I'd never been inside a library that had that old style and some
• 4:47
  of
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: these manuscripts from like the 1400s,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: really,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: on vellum,
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: not on paper,
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: but on animal skins.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so there was a woman in there that was a librarian and she said,
• 5:00
  I think we could probably use this in our libraries to keep people from
• 5:04
  stealing
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: the books.
• 5:06
  But this is these heavy wooden shelves and then these long chains coming down
• 5:11
  from
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_03: the from the books that are through big rings.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then they.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: You get to sit with these little,
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: these slanted desks and students would go in or still,
• 5:22
  Ithinkthatthere'ssomeofthethingsarestillbeingabletobeorareableto
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: be accessed.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: So for somebody who loves to read and loves to write, it was like candy.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now just, you know, I'm just here.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm there, transported, just as you described, you know.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: As you're saying to me,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking when I've been to the library at Dublin University,
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have the chains, but those books.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: Did you see the Book of Kells?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: I saw that a couple of years ago.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: I was in Dublin and had the privilege of looking upon,
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: casting my gaze upon such a magical,
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: these beautiful,
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: illustrated,
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: gilded books that are not throwaway and they're certainly not...
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: What were they used to call them in Victorian England?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: Penny Dreadfuls?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the Penny Dreadfuls.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: What a great name for a book.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: I do love that.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, before, I mean, we started talking before I started recording.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: But since we're talking about books, you've just released the book.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to just jump ahead completely here.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Go right ahead.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do it.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I ordered it and it finally arrived this week.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just was going through it and reading parts.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a deep book that invites us to...
• 7:00
  likeromanceitinawayit'snottobeidon'tfeellikeit'sabookthatwejust
• 7:04
  sitandreadyouknowbeginningtoendwesitwithittherearesomanythingsso
• 7:10
  many different topics you cover can you tell us a little bit about this book
• 7:15
  yeah
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: would you like to hold it up and show it or do you
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is good.
• 7:20
  This is actually just going to be audio,
• 7:22
  but I will put it on the show notes.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: The title of the book is Women of the All Ways.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then the subtitle is Rooted in Wisdom Sourced from the Dark.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: And.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: As many,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: many people know me as the Rune Woman,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: because I work with Nordic Animism and Rune Wisdom.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not really deviation from the work I do.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's actually that the Rune Wisdom informed this book.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: And.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: Probably,
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: what,
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: 20 years ago,
• 8:00
  I developed this year-long course that followed the phases of the moon
• 8:08
  througha
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: lunar year.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: So there are 13 full moons and 13 dark moons in a lunar year.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: So the book is...
• 8:19
  are organized around 26 individual topics and each topic stands alone and
• 8:25
  each
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: topic feeds the other.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: So it can be used actually as a book, um,
• 8:33
  Similartothewaythattheartist'swaywassetupinthe12chapterswiththe
• 8:38
  topicsandthatyoucouldworkwithitonyourownandoryoucouldgatherwith
• 8:43
  other women and actually meet regularly and take the topics and talk about
• 8:48
  them
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: because there's the book is full of questions and exercises and quotes.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I intentionally it's a larger format.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_03: I intentionally left lots of space in it.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: There's bigger margins.
• 9:03
  There's it's not just dense text all the way across the pages as so often the
• 9:10
  books are.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: And there's no for me, that kind of a book.
• 9:13
  Thiskindofabookallowsforyoutobreathewhenyouasyouaskforyouto
• 9:18
  breathe and pause because it's not just a continuation of on and on and on and
• 9:23
  on
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: and on.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: And the topics range from.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: blood and crossroads and silence and darkness and triple.
• 9:34
  So there's just a whole variety of interesting things that are specific to
• 9:39
  women,
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: but also valuable and important to men.
• 9:46
  And the reason I say that is very straightforward that every person alive or
• 9:53
  dead
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: male or female, lived inside the body of a woman.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's where life started for you.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: And that because of that,
• 10:02
  there's a necessity for men to have different relationship with women
• 10:09
  because
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: that's the place from which they were birthed.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I really hold that as I don't think it's just a book for women.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: Any person,
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: any man that's listening to this,
• 10:22
  you need to read some of these things because what I believe we are struggling
• 10:27
  with
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: today is an imbalance.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about one better, somebody taking over.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's about we're completely out of balance with regard to these things.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: And the other part, I've had a couple of comments.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's an original painting.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: The cover of the book,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: Front and Back,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: is part of an original painting by an amazing artist,
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: Kate Jacobson,
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: who lives in Minneapolis.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: I said to myself when I went to print it,
• 10:54
  Icannotputthepictureofawomanonthisbookbecauseyoucannotmakethat
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: decision.
• 11:01
  Like no matter whose picture or what stylized representation,
• 11:05
  it would exclude.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: Is it old?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is it young?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: Is she fat?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: Is she thin?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: Does she have dark skin, light skin?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: There would be an exclusion.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: So the representation,
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: the stylized representation of this original work of art,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: which is all done in reds and pinks and maroons,
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: it's like a portal,
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: but it's a vaginal opening.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: When you look at it,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: in fact,
• 11:31
  lastnighttherewasayoungmanherewithhismomwhotheycamebytopickmeup
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: to take me out out to dinner.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: And he looked at the book and he this is a boy that just turned 16.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: And he looked at the book and he looked at me and he said, oh, I get it.
• 11:50
  And it was just there was just this moment that was really precious in that,
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: that it's recognizable.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I am very excited to have it out.
• 12:00
  There'ssomuchofwhat'sintherethathasbeenyou'llrecognizesomeofthe
• 12:05
  things I talk about because I talk about them in my other two books that are
• 12:09
  about
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: the rooms.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: So you don't you know, there's not really a separation.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's a seamless separation.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: combining for me,
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: weaving of the nature of the work that I do,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: the wisdom that I share,
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: and what the ancestors have given me.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I do say very passionately, I am an elder.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm in I'm not in my middle 70s anymore.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm in my late 70s.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: I consider myself an elder.
• 12:44
  And there's not a lot out there there that when you look across the Internet,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: not that there's anything wrong with the youth,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: but.
• 12:53
  We need more elders to come forward and and to share wisdom from an older,
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: deeper place,
• 13:01
  because even though the world is moving very fast and we have a lot of stuff
• 13:05
  that
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: is different.
• 13:08
  The thing that those of us who have lived through a lot of different times,
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: we can bring that wisdom forward and put it into modern day happenings.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not outdated.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's not old fashioned.
• 13:22
  It's just basic truth that we I think we have forgotten that we we need a
• 13:27
  culture
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: that don't have elders.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad you said that because.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I have lots of conversations with friends.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of my friends are Gen Xers.
• 13:42
  And there's this sense that I pick up from at least the people I'm talking to
• 13:49
  where it's like...
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: As if Gen X is like we're removing ourselves.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let the millennials and the boomers, you know, hash it out.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And part of me is like, no, no, no.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: If anything, I do feel we need we need elders.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: We need to learn to elder because you can't go through these times of.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of a heightened transformation,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: because I think human nature is always going through something.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: But this this feels pretty heightened because,
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: now we have 24 seven things coming at us.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel the need for the elders.
• 14:30
  And I feel then to a certain degree that at least the generation I'm coming
• 14:35
  from,
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we have to help her.
• 14:38
  We can't just sort of step aside,
• 14:41
  you know,
• 14:43
  and turn to the youth and be like,
• 14:44
  here it is.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: You guys are awesome.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Go at it.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm like, you're awesome.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: You have new ideas.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's an and both that needs to happen.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really glad you mentioned that.
• 14:57
  And also just the feeling of your book,
• 15:00
  because I have the other books as well.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Just a little bit that I was able to read.
• 15:07
  I felt that it was the image that came to my mind is like a really well cooked
• 15:14
  soup.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the ingredients really were slow cooked.
• 15:20
  And so now that I'm eating it,
• 15:22
  as I'm reading it,
• 15:23
  if you will,
• 15:24
  it feels really nourishing.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like it's well melted together.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel that elders bring that kind of wisdom that gets to be,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: if you will,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: boiled down,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: melted.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: In a way that when delivered feels very nourishing for quite a while.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I've said to you before we started recording,
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: because I've worked with you before,
• 15:49
  I feel like what the wisdom you bring to your sessions with clients is that
• 15:54
  kindof
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: nourishing.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a time, some time to unfurl.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so I really appreciate that.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's not a quick fix.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I also think,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:10
  bless whoever these young people are saying we're just going to we don't like
• 16:15
  what
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: you did or.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: But you know what?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: Just walk up to them and take their phone away.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because this is a whole generation.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: There's a whole group of young people that can't function.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: They really can't function in the world without their technology.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: They don't even know where the sun comes up.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: They don't know how to find their way on a map.
• 16:38
  And that it's nice to set us aside and say,
• 16:41
  oh,
• 16:41
  we'll leave you to your mess.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: But like I said, you can't have it both ways.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: You can't just criticize and still live the benefit.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe there's problems that exist because of things that were done.
• 16:55
  But there's also all the benefits that everybody takes advantage of that
• 17:01
  wouldn't
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: be there if it hadn't been for the generations before.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:07
  And that to me is like you just it's short sighted and there's a level of I can
• 17:15
  say
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: ignorance,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: but naivety to really,
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: we're going to we don't like the past or we're going to erase it.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: But you don't you don't live in the vacuum.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: You don't get to you don't get to have that.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:32
  Here we are on a Zoom call in different parts of the city or different parts of
• 17:37
  the
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: world or different,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: that makes it possible to do what we do.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that didn't that didn't happen by itself.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: So that's also from I would say as an elder and what I you know,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: I call myself an irreverent wise woman.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: So irreverence to me is like I'm willing to just call it out.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: I don't care.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: You get to a certain point, you get to a certain age.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you don't really care anymore.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: You can do all the flapping around about what's going on.
• 18:13
  But there's always been change and there's always been trauma and there's
• 18:18
  always
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: been fighting and war.
• 18:20
  And the way and I love what you shared as we were talking earlier about the.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: How how do we live it?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: How do we live day to day?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: How do we navigate things without making everything awful?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 18:40
  Yeah,
• 18:40
  because we were talking about why did I call this podcast romancing the
• 18:45
  threshold?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Where did the idea come from?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's why when I was thinking about the podcast and I thought,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: who would I like to bring?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: You were on my list largely because of the kind of work you do.
• 18:59
  And I thought somebody who was right there was an elder who understands these
• 19:03
  the
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: threshold,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: the crossroads of life.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I was also thinking about.
• 19:10
  Yes,
• 19:10
  we're going through a lot of things in the world,
• 19:12
  but how can we approach?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Change is happening.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's happening.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Things are dying and being born.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: How can we engage with it,
• 19:21
  relate to it with the curiosity of lovers and not just bracing for impact?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I feel that the constant way we're delivered information,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: which is very different than wisdom,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: is like a barrage just coming and coming and coming.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no time.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's no time to just breathe, let it cook, you know.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so I kept thinking...
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: that I wanted to create a space where I could talk to different people,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: healers,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: elders,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: authors of romance novels,
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: creatives,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: where we are all,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: in a way,
• 20:04
  working with helping ourselves and others navigate this liminal space
• 20:09
  that'sgoing
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: on,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: very pronounced,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: but how to deal with the curiosity of lovers.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:17
  Sosothatthat'sagoodsegueintosomeofthekindofmeditativestateIwent
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: into before the call,
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: because before any time that.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: before meeting with anyone,
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: whether in person or online,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: I like to spend just silence,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: usually in a little bit,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: usually in the hours when there's not a lot of light,
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: dawn or dusk,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: that I do that.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I love words, as many people know I do.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I went to the, first I went to the word romance.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: And romance as a word originally was an adverb.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very interesting because it had to do with storytelling.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: It had to do with ballads that were chivalrous and about lovers.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: And it was considered...
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: In the vernacular,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: it was considered less than important in relationship to the Latin text,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: the written text that were in Latin.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: So this this romance also came from a lot of these ballads.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: were written in French.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: Then we began following that word.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: We began to move into the romance languages,
• 21:44
  which were the languages that originated from Latin but became kind of in and
• 21:49
  of
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: themselves.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't until,
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: the late 1800s that it began to be applied to the novels,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: these romance novels.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: So what I thought,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: because it had so much to do with storytelling,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: and I thought,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: this is a perfect,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: beautiful word,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: because what's the invitation in that word is things happen.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: What kind of story do we tell about it?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because I made up the word or used the word awfulize.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: that we hear things and we awfulize them and we make them so terrible.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: And in that,
• 22:32
  thenwechoosehowwe'regoingtorelatetoitandhowwe'regoingtolivewith
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: that information and what we're going to talk about.
• 22:39
  So you bringing in this beautiful word with the history of a chivalrous love
• 22:47
  poem,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: Could we use that word to ask ourselves,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: what's the story that I'm telling myself about things that are happening?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: So that was where I began,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: was like this,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: as a storyteller,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: what we say,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: when we attach a meaning,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: it affects how we respond.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: Then I went to the word threshold,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: and I kind of like worked around with threshold,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: liminal,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: and also crossroads.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like what's the difference with these words?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that crossroads are coming together of different paths,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: and it requires at that meeting place –
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: To make a decision, there's a choice that has to be made.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: And there may be only two roads,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: two roads coming into the road you're on,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: or there might be more.
• 23:51
  I think about the roundabouts in England or in Paris where you've got like 12
• 23:56
  roads
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: coming all together.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody knows what to do, but somehow they do it.
• 24:00
  And when they have a roundabout inside the,
• 24:03
  you know,
• 24:05
  almost inside the other roundabout.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, most definitely.
• 24:09
  So here's this crossroads coming to a place where you decide what what
• 24:13
  direction
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: you're going to go.
• 24:16
  And you can continue on the road you've been on unless it's a T intersection.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: You have to make a choice.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: You can also turn around and go back.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: But it's never the same because you're not the same.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then I brought that into threshold.
• 24:33
  And I thought,
• 24:33
  well,
• 24:34
  with regard to a threshold,
• 24:36
  we also have to make a choice.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you think thresh had to do with stomping,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: beating,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: dancing on grain that separated the grain from the chaff,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 24:54
  Andtheholdhadtodowiththeimaginedorrealbarrierthatstoodbetweenthe
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: floor where you weren't threshing the grain and the floor where you were.
• 25:10
  Andnowweuseitasadescriptionoftheplacethatyouhavetostepacrossin
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: order to leave one place to go to another.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's still a decision.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I look at my front door and I think,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: OK,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: I can open the door and I have to ask myself the question.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: And by the way,
• 25:32
  IdiscussedthisinthenewbookinthechapteroncrossroadsthatIhaveto
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: decide,
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: am I going to stay inside or am I going to go outside?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: And in order to do that, I must step across the threshold.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: But I can also ask myself,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: am I leaving,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:53
  am I leaving the inside to go to the outside or am I leaving the outside to come
• 25:59
  to
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: the inside?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because this is a two way passage.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: And that then says to me, there's always a sacrifice.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: There's always an offering.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: Because when you make a decision, you leave something behind.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that if we go through life that way,
• 26:22
  knowing that no matter where we step or where we go or what we do or don't do,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: we're making a choice for
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: We may not have choice about what comes to us,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: but we get to choose the story we make up,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: how we're going to deal with it.
• 26:40
  And in order to go outside,
• 26:42
  I have to leave behind the inside or vice versa.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
• 26:48
  Andwhenwelookatthatthenaswhatareyouwillingtoofferupinorderforyou
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: to have movement in your life?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's not possible.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's also not possible to not to not move.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: There's always change day by every day.
• 27:06
  But if we approach it from this romance of a story of,
• 27:11
  oh,
• 27:12
  I love being inside.
• 27:13
  However,
• 27:14
  if I'm going to go plant in my garden,
• 27:16
  I can't do it in my house.
• 27:18
  Ihavetogiveuptheheaterthat'sonorthecomfortofmyhouseslipperstogo
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: outside to work in the garden.
• 27:28
  And so it's an offering,
• 27:31
  but am I wishing I was still inside when I'm outside?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of times people do that.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: They make up a story about how much they miss something,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: but it's not possible to have what's next unless you let something go.
• 27:48
  So that was,
• 27:50
  for me,
• 27:51
  really exciting to play with those words and put them together.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then I'm just going to keep talking a little bit.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: But I got also to the liminal space, which...
• 28:03
  isn't always it isn't explored a lot the liminal space and and in order for
• 28:10
  there
• 28:10
  to be the space in between there has to be the duality there has to be the edges
• 28:17
  we
• 28:18
  cangoallasdarkasdarkandaslightaslightorasyouknowitlet'ssayinthe
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: seasons but
• 28:28
  But in order for something to exist in the middle,
• 28:30
  there has to be the edges.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: Otherwise, it isn't a middle.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: And even in this,
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: people saying,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: non-duality and non-binary,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: that doesn't exist in nature.
• 28:43
  And that's where I say the runes inform us is that the runes show us that the
• 28:49
  gift
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: of the duality or the gift of the binary is the gift of the in-between.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: Because it allows for us to,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: here's the darkest night,
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: here's the brightest day.
• 29:05
  And then all the beauty that exists between those two exists in the middle.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 29:13
  thesunriseandsunsetandthehighnoonandthemiddleofthenightandyoucan
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: see the stars and you can't see the stars.
• 29:21
  Or you can apply that even to sexuality is that there is a binary that has to
• 29:28
  exist
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: in the genetics because there's either...
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: The person that can impregnate and the person that can be impregnated.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: So that's just the simplicity of the biology of the way humans reproduce.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: But because there's those edges,
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: that end point,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: it allows for all the different expressions in between.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't discount them.
• 29:55
  It's not possible to leave that space because everything that's in between
• 30:00
  exists
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: there because of the extremes.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so that to me then is like thinking of this liminal.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: What if we thought of the threshold as,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: As a space that's very big.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: That isn't just this cross point.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: That we allow for this place of...
• 30:21
  difference this place of movement this place of change to be able to be like
• 30:27
  it's
• 30:28
  breathing so it can get big and it can get small and it's the smallest of the
• 30:33
  small
• 30:34
  andtheandthenitgoesallthewayouttotheedgesandandthattomeisalso
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: about telling a story
• 30:43
  yes where it's not it's having that those extremes doesn't mean we all we have
• 30:50
  to
• 30:51
  choose between one or the other means that they exist separate and distinct
• 30:57
  inthe
• 30:58
  fact that they allow everything that's happening in the middle and to me
• 31:02
  that's
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: also making the story and that's where i believe that the
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: in all the years I work with the runes and the ancestors is that
• 31:18
  Each rune stave,
• 31:20
  each rune marking represents a being that holds a body of wisdom.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: And that each rune holds both extremes of anything that it represents.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: If it's a rune about life, it has to hold death.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: Because you can't have life without death.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: You can't have death without life.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: If it's a rune about the mother...
• 31:47
  It's a rune of birth,
• 31:50
  but when she gives birth,
• 31:51
  the things she gives birth to will die.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: So the birth rune is also a rune of life and death.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: Or if it's a Feu,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: for instance,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: the rune that is about movable wealth and things coming from the land.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's the one aspect of it.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: And everything that comes from the land returns to the land.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the other end of it.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so to me, change is if you...
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: If you resist it,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: if you complain about it,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: if you try to pretend it isn't there,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_03: you've actually lost the experience of being alive.
• 32:37
  Even though you're still living,
• 32:38
  you're not really living because you've shut down.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: You've closed the romance.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have the curiosity about it anymore.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 32:51
  this is actually one of the names I thought about was Romancing the Liminal,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: but I ended up going for the Threshold because it felt more.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: I like the sound of it.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's tangible also.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think for me, the Liminal is almost in the middle.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: Threshold is too, but there's a tangible.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: I like the word because it has a firmness to it.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: To me, it's the dot that exists in the middle.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: That is that one place where you have to make the choice.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: Are you going to be here?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: Are you going to be there?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: Are you going to go in or out?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's beautiful.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: When you invited me to be part of it and said the name,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: it was very exciting for me to say,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: this is these are not words we usually put together.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Also, thank you.
• 33:39
  You know,
• 33:39
  there's a invitation,
• 33:41
  a curiosity just in the way you put the words together.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, so much more.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for kind of really distilling all that for me.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's good for, it's good for the branding I'm going to use though.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: But a few images came to me when you were talking about that.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: One was when I was a kid,
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: my mother,
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: I would be running in and out of the,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: the apartment to play.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And my mother's like, are you going in?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Are you staying in or are you staying outside?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Make a choice.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: She did not like me just going back and forth.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: I had to pick.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: I had to pick a choice.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: So right there, you know, make a choice.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that I was thinking,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: about romancing the threshold,
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: the liminal,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: one is I've always felt that the liminal has its own geography.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's a landscape.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that image came to me years ago when my father died.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I was...
• 34:43
  And all of a sudden I kind of had this sense,
• 34:46
  oh,
• 34:47
  I'm traversing a landscape.
• 34:51
  And in this landscape that was very liminal,
• 34:53
  I was meeting different characters,
• 34:56
  you know.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so at that time I started thinking, OK, who am I meeting?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: How can I approach this with less tension?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of the origin story,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: if you will,
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: with my real interest in liminality and the thresholds.
• 35:16
  Being an immigrant,
• 35:17
  I feel like you're already kind of already always on that threshold.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're always kind of there.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:25
  But the other thing I started thinking about in terms of what I saw with
• 35:29
  clients,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: coaching people around challenges and anxieties about life.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the moment we are living now,
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: especially in this decade that I have called the courageous decade,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: because this is all hands on deck feels to me.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: This decade is very liminal.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 35:51
  There's definitely a before times and an after,
• 35:53
  and we're in the thick of the middle.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I started noticing not just the fear-mongering,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: because the algorithm gods apparently really like that,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: but it's more the sense that when we're going through change,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: me personally too,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: we may cross the threshold,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: and then we're immediately like,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get to the other side.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Get me out of this middle.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: The middle...
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: can bring a lot of anxieties, but it's also highly creative.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I started to try to focus for my own journeys,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: but also in thinking,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: how can we elevate that part?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: not just focus on the challenge.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes the threshold dwellers,
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: those gods we meet at the threshold,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: they're challenging ones.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: They're like big bouncers at a nightclub.
• 36:51
  But how do we engage with it in a way that feels more relational rather than
• 37:00
  it's
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: happening to me,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the victim,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm beneath this or I'm too small.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: I can't, you know, you know, does that make sense?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: It does.
• 37:12
  Well,
• 37:13
  and,
• 37:13
  and what happens,
• 37:14
  it's like the example that you gave about your mom.
• 37:18
  It was disruptive to her,
• 37:20
  apparently to have you coming and going for no judgment with that.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: It just was perhaps disruptive and we're, we're pretty conditioned.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: You need to, you need to pick one or the other.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:34
  However,
• 37:35
  I sense the innate curiosity of a child is,
• 37:39
  why do I have to pick?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: Because I can constantly be.
• 37:43
  They live much more liminally in that space of being in motion and
• 37:50
  understanding
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: that there doesn't have to be a decision.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: Because in truth, you couldn't be...
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: Inside and outside at the same time,
• 38:01
  you had to be in the in the in between in order to be moving back and forth.
• 38:06
  AndsowhatIfindwithpeopleisthatthere'sthisresistancetothechange
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: because it's frightening.
• 38:16
  You know,
• 38:17
  set aside,
• 38:17
  okay,
• 38:18
  there's danger or something's bad going to happen.
• 38:22
  I'm just,
• 38:23
  in general,
• 38:23
  we get afraid of things that are new until we get used to them.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so that fear mongering keeps us agitated, keeps us off balance.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then it's easier sometimes,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 38:38
  to be power over it or abused by those who are more powerful or louder than we
• 38:47
  are.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: And that just keeps us in that space of constant disorientation.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: And that if we open up the threshold or go back to the crossroads,
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: even if we go to the crossroads where we have to make a choice,
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: something is happening.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's not always being done to us.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's just happening.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: And we are here.
• 39:18
  Wait at the crossroads a little bit and allow it to get bigger and see who's
• 39:23
  there,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: which is what you just described,
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: is that if we,
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: depending on our belief system,
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: If we really do believe that there are the seen and the unseen,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: if we believe that the dead are our ancestors are around us,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: can we make that space bigger so that when we're having that experience,
• 39:45
  wecanseeorfeelorsensehowoccupieditisthatthatlittlepointofthe
• 39:54
  crossroads or that threshold that we step back and forth across is a whole
• 39:59
  realm
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: all by itself.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: filled with the ancestors,
• 40:04
  filled with all the beings that exist that we don't see with the human eye,
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: then it's not just something happening to you,
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: it's actually experiential and it's connected.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know that there's you're not there by you're not by yourself.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: You always meet yourself at the crossroads.
• 40:27
  You always you're always present when you choose to go back and forth across
• 40:32
  the threshold.
• 40:34
  I think Rumi even has a poem about that that I put in the book that don't the door
• 40:40
  is open.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: Don't go back to sleep.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: Mm hmm.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it's this really magical words to think,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: if I allow myself to stay here,
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: what else is here?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just about something being done to me and then making it.
• 40:58
  This is that everything is like so tragic,
• 41:02
  but we forget the place of work.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: Life and death,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 41:07
  thatwecan'twecan'texperiencethecheetahisalwaysgoingtohuntdownthe
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: gazelle.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: The shark is always going to kill something in order to live.
• 41:21
  What what happens with us as humans is maybe we forget that part that that's
• 41:27
  what's
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: that's nature.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: Earthquakes erupt.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, earthquakes happen.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_03: Volcanoes erupt.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: Tsunamis happen.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_03: There's always going to be destruction and devastation.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: So how do things come out of that and things come out of that?
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like the Hawaiian Islands, right?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: Iceland, you know.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: Iceland, yes, yes.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just this beautiful...
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: And the romance is a beautiful word to use.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's like,
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: can we,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: in spite of what happens,
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: can we hold a place in our heart where we make love to life?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: And in doing that,
• 42:08
  thenwedon'tshutourselvesdownandwedon'tparticipateinalltheanxiety
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: ridden things.
• 42:19
  stuff that's out there we begin to pay attention to each other to our
• 42:24
  neighborsto
• 42:25
  how we care about the people that are around us in our neighborhoods in our
• 42:29
  little
• 42:30
  in our cities and and focus on that what kind of a what beautiful story can i
• 42:36
  tell
• 42:37
  that is is going to connect me with someone else who has a beautiful story yeah
• 42:42
  and
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: When you were talking earlier,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: about the,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: this in between,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: the image that I had,
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it was Bede who said it,
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: or some medieval thinker,
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: we're kind of like a bird.
• 43:01
  We're flying through the window inside the castle hall or the church,
• 43:06
  and then we fly out.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I kept thinking about the image.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: We come in and then we go out.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know what's happening outside.
• 43:17
  But in that moment when the bird is on the inside,
• 43:20
  flying inside,
• 43:23
  it's kind of like our lives.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: What are we going to make about this?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the whole of life is this great in between.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: We live in it.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then there are smaller ones.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are phases of life like perimenopause, adolescence.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's a longer period.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: phase or elderly, but then there are shorter ones.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: You change your job, you move cities.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're short ones.
• 43:47
  The other image I thought when you were talking about that is when we travel,
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: like you started saying in the very beginning,
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: traveling.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like when we travel to another place, we are in a liminal space.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: We are in a space that is not our ordinary world.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it calls to different parts of us.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: We have to pay different attention.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know our way around.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just drive mindlessly.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: You have to really pay closer attention.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what's so,
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: for an example,
• 44:19
  onewaytoengagewiththelimitisnoticehowyouengagewhenyoutraveltoa
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: different place.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: How do you deal with those changes?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: How do you romance that, you know, time away?
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:34
  Yeah,
• 44:35
  or do you go as the ugly American tourist that wants everything to be the same?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: When you're going out of the country,
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: you expect them to behave a certain way because that's the best way.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:48
  Well,
• 44:48
  also when we travel,
• 44:49
  I think on the physicality level is that we eat the food there.
• 44:58
  Andthatfoodnourishesourbodyandallthemineralsandstuffthat'sinthe
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: ground that grew the food that we're eating feeds us.
• 45:08
  And when we come back home,
• 45:10
  we bring some of that with us in the form of our physical body.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: So this maybe is happening more frequently because of ease of travel now.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: But in the past, not all people traveled.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: There are people that never left home.
• 45:26
  Thevillageneverleftthecityandthatorthemovementwassoslowandtook
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_03: months or years to get to someplace.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_03: We just have this experience of flying so quickly and easily.
• 45:40
  And and then we forget that,
• 45:43
  you know,
• 45:43
  I just spent an entire month someplace and.
• 45:47
  IbroughtthatlandbackwithmeandItooksomeofmylandwhereIlivenowwith
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: me when I went over there.
• 45:56
  So that's also like a mixing together of this space that we that's the action.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's real.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's literal.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: And in a culture that I feel is unromantic, we have now jet lag.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: But in a way,
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: the jet lag is how we reenter back or enter into,
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: because when we fly to Europe,
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: we get the jet lag,
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: too.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's kind of interesting, this sort of.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: We are I feel in our culture,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: we're very much rushed through,
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: cross the threshold,
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: get to the other part.
• 46:42
  You know,
• 46:43
  we don't have a lot of time or told we or feel like we shouldn't.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I even myself suffer with that.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes like we were talking before we recorded,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: I had a session with you and you said,
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: you're filling up your basket.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: And there are moments when I'm like, well, is this basket full or not?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: I need, I need to get to the other side.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have to remember, no, no, no, calm down, you know?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I think in our culture,
• 47:14
  we have to counter that because a lot of the messages we have is you got to,
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's okay to cross,
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: but do it quickly.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, make a decision, make a choice.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: And there's this clock, the clock is ticking.
• 47:30
  And I think jet lag,
• 47:32
  for instance,
• 47:34
  gives us the reminder that the clock doesn't mean anything.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's an arbitrary, artificial way of measuring time that doesn't relate.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because we as humans, our bodies sync up with...
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: the light and the dark.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: if we just fly quickly someplace that's nine,
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: 10,
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: 11 hours difference,
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: it takes us a while to catch up.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: We call that jet lag, but it's really our body.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: There's a confusion in the body with regard to the light and the dark.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: And when I should be hungry and when I should be sleeping and that it's,
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: it's not a,
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: yes,
• 48:23
  it's a thing that we've labeled and diagnosed or you're suffering from jet
• 48:27
  lag,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: but more accurately,
• 48:30
  your body is confused because it's went so fast into another experience that
• 48:40
  it
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: didn't have time to,
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: it has to integrate when you get there.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking here when we go through a psychological change.
• 48:53
  We're going through,
• 48:53
  you know,
• 48:54
  let's say you move cities,
• 48:55
  you know,
• 48:56
  move to a different city.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's something you wanted to do.
• 48:59
  It was the thing you wanted to do,
• 49:00
  even when it's so-called,
• 49:02
  you know,
• 49:02
  good.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: You go.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: But there's still,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: if you are a psychological jet lag,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: your psyche,
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: your body is being like,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: whoa,
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: what's happening?
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you might feel or experience things that you didn't expect.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the sense I have is as challenging as it is,
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: and I think this is where a lot of the anxiety probably shows up,
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: is when we try to squash it down.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, this is not the way.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: But if you were to be like, what are these symptoms about?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as Jung would say, you know, the gods become diseases.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so part of me is how do we romance with these gods?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: Then how do we relate to what is it trying to show me?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: What can I show it?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 50:02
  And I sense that this is also...
• 50:05
  I'm going to bring a rune into the conversation.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a rune that's called Jira.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's spelled J-E-R-A.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: So some people might say Jira.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: And it comes in two different forms.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 50:27
  So one form is a single vertical line and it has two like little thorns
• 50:34
  pointing
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_03: out from the greater than,
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_03: less than symbols,
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_03: but they're pointing away from on each side,
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_03: away from the single line.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then the other form of jira is that it's these two greater than,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: less than symbols that aren't touching each other,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: but they're kind of stuck together,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: facing away from each other,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: but kind of,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: yes,
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_03: like inside each other.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: And for me,
• 51:06
  the one form where they're attached to the vertical line is that it's the
• 51:12
  turning
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: of the wheel of an entire season of an entire year of seasons.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_03: So that let's say you.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I use that example, actually, in the writing of one of my books.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_03: So my father died in the fall in in the fall of a year,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: and I decided to walk every day to remember his death.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I do it every year.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, every season of the year.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I walked every day through the winter.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: That was the first winter without my father.
• 51:53
  I walked every day through the spring,
• 51:56
  summer,
• 51:56
  fall,
• 51:57
  came back around to the time that he died.
• 51:59
  So I had actually experienced the turning of that wheel for an entire year
• 52:06
  through
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: all the seasons.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: After that, I did that.
• 52:10
  Then it's like that that rune form separates from the east of the single
• 52:16
  vertical line.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: And these two shapes,
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: lesser than,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: greater than,
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: started moving around kind of on their own like a gyroscope.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: They're still turning and they're still moving because the next winter.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_03: was the I still didn't have my father.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_03: My father had died.
• 52:36
  So it was a winter without my father,
• 52:38
  but it was not the first winter without my father.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_03: We can only have the first winter without your mother or your father.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_03: You can only have that once.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: And then every every year afterward is still a year without your parents.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: but it's not the first year.
• 52:58
  And so the form of that rune gives that opportunity to consider that
• 53:06
  experiencein
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_03: a different way.
• 53:08
  AndthereasonI'mbringingitupisthatsoofteninoursocietyofwantingto
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_03: rush through,
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: go out,
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: come in,
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: step across the door,
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: get over it,
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: whatever.
• 53:19
  We jump sometimes to one experience from one experience to the other without
• 53:25
  giving
• 53:25
  ourselves the opportunity to go through an entire literal year of all the
• 53:32
  seasons
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: and all the changes and to see what it feels like.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say you ended a relationship.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: What does it actually feel like for you to go through an entire year,
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_03: the winter,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: the spring,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: the summer,
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_03: the fall without a partner?
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because very often I'll end this relationship.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: Well, then two weeks later, I'm into another one and I end that.
• 53:54
  Andtheninsixweeksortwomonthsandwedon'tgiveourselvesthisthegiftof
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_03: actually having the experience.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: We just jump into the next thing.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like that there's an incompletion,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: incomplete there,
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: that gives us this feeling of loss.
• 54:18
  Andwethinkthatwecansatisfythelossbyjumpingtothenextandthenextand
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_03: the next,
• 54:24
  rather than giving ourselves the time to experience the wisdom of the
• 54:29
  turningof
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_03: the wheel of the seasons.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_03: We live on the earth.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: We're fed by the earth.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_03: We return to the earth.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_03: We are synced up with the rhythm of the earth, and it isn't fast.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's slow.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_03: It has a rhythm.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_03: It does.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: It does.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: It has a rhythm.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: That would be one of the questions you'd ask before the...
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: before our call was like,
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_03: how do the runes,
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_03: what do they teach about these liminal spaces or thresholds or change?
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I would use a rune like that as it's not a teaching,
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_03: it's not a law,
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: it's just giving you the reminder that
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_03: Of how the earth works,
• 55:14
  becausethatformeishowthewhattherunesshowusoverandoveragainisthat
• 55:19
  they are universal wisdom that carries an energy that applies in to all
• 55:27
  peoplein
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: all places in all time.
• 55:30
  The earth still turns a certain way and there's still the change of the
• 55:34
  season,
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_03: some places more drastic than the others.
• 55:38
  But when we create the imbalance in our lives or we ignore something,
• 55:45
  so imbalance is there.
• 55:47
  like we're always agitated and we're always worried and we're always
• 55:51
  afraid,
• 55:53
  then there's no way that we can be in harmony with the seasons and the cycles.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: Because nothing on the earth is always the same.
• 56:05
  We can count on the cycle,
• 56:08
  but every time that it comes around,
• 56:10
  it's different.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's the same and different.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting,
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: a few things you mentioned there,
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking one,
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: it's actually been now a year,
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: a little over a year now since my mother died.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I've gone through all the seasons with that.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: And when my father died, I remember walking a lot too.
• 56:38
  Maybe not,
• 56:38
  I didn't have the intention as you had,
• 56:40
  but I did a lot of walking and noticing.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing that I remember that really helped me was,
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: because that was the first death that I had that really was pronounced.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: Grandparents didn't affect me as much, but my father was the first one.
• 57:01
  Even though as a kid,
• 57:02
  I remember other deaths in the family,
• 57:04
  but I saw I got to see him die.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the stages of grief didn't work for me.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: It made me anxious until I realized I was in this landscape.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized that it was, I called them the three goddesses to me.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: It was lady deaths.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: Lady Grief, I used to call her Lady Grievana.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: And in my mind, she looks like Helen Mirren.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: I just like her to look like Helen Mirren.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was Lady Joy.
• 57:41
  And I remember that once I understood that I couldn't drive through this
• 57:45
  landscape,
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't fly over it,
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: I had to walk it.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of the dreams I've had that are related to that.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can't find a car.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can't fly.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: I have to walk.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:00
  And I'm walking and I would say sometimes to myself or closer friends and say,
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm having tea with Lady Grievana.
• 58:07
  I got to spend time with Lady Grievana,
• 58:09
  have my scones and tea before I can meet Lady Joy.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so once I kind of that lives in my imagination,
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: Lady Death,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: Lady Grief,
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: Lady Joy,
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: they're sisters.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't go from one.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can't skip it.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it really helped me once I had that.
• 58:29
  I was like,
• 58:29
  oh,
• 58:30
  OK,
• 58:30
  sometimes I'm just having tea and scones with lady grief.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's not formulaic.
• 58:38
  I think sometimes when we get these,
• 58:40
  you know,
• 58:41
  there's certain stages of grief and you need to.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_03: Do this and do this and do this and do this.
• 58:46
  And that's that that's that written in stone kind of imagery that serves well
• 58:52
  for
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: religions that make rules and commandments and regulation.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_03: And life isn't like that.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's like,
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 58:59
  today I'm going to stay home and have tea and scones and tomorrow something
• 59:05
  else.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that's, I think.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's more about relationship.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's about being aware,
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: slowing down,
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: connecting,
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_03: and asking yourself,
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_03: what actually is,
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: what am I called to do today?
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: What do I need to do today?
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_03: Not where should I be in this timeline?
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_03: And how, by living from that place of understanding
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_03: of paying attention,
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_03: it allows for you to have all the experiences,
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_03: but not in a sequential line.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_03: I love about that.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: Some of these spiritual practices, like in the witches community and
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_03: You have to put your candle here and your water here and your incense.
• 59:53
  And I tease and say,
• 59:55
  you know,
• 59:56
  stand on one leg and whistle and spit over your shoulder.
• 59:59
  Somebody made up some real formula and maybe in general it works and maybe
• 1:00:05
  that's lovely.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_03: But if it doesn't, it's not because there's something wrong with you.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's because you just experience things in a different way.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_03: And that's,
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 1:00:16
  the same with like we get caught up in in all the stuff that's happening right
• 1:00:22
  now
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_03: because there is a lot of change.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_03: But there's always a lot of change.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_03: People were afraid of electricity when it was invented.
• 1:00:29
  Peoplewereafraidthattherewasatimewhenwomenweren'tallowedtoride
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_03: bicycles because it was considered to be dangerous.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_03: A bicycle was dangerous to a woman.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:39
  And as we talked earlier,
• 1:00:41
  it's like,
• 1:00:42
  well,
• 1:00:43
  I think we're facing crazy things right now.
• 1:00:45
  But Second World War was horrendous,
• 1:00:49
  horrendous stuff that changed the world.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that we faced nuclear, we faced the dropping of atomic bombs.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_03: And they could have.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_03: it's not that we have to always be comparing,
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_03: but to pay attention to the fact that every every season,
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_03: every generation,
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_03: every decade has something monumental.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_03: that defines it, that we speak to.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: And we really,
• 1:01:24
  we can't say it's worse than anything else or better than anything else
• 1:01:28
  becausewe
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_03: didn't live then.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: And also even how we engage with the change ourselves.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like I felt the grief of my father very differently.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was younger.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was in a different stage in my life.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now I faced,
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've journeyed with grief in a different way,
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: different stage in my life,
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: different relationship,
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: not the same with my parents.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think even the changes within our lives are different.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:02:00
  you can move to a different job or a different place and you have your certain
• 1:02:04
  kind
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: of experience and then you do it again.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: You're a different person.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: What I think about sometimes is,
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: That I guess in a way I worry is not quite the word,
• 1:02:16
  butI'malittleconcernedwhenIseethisisthatwhenwe'regoingthrough
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: collective changes or even personal changes that are more emphasized.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: We are not giving time to see what images are rising.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: We don't pay attention.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: We see the events.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: We see the choppy waves, and we get really perhaps stressed or worried.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: But underneath it, there's something.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: But we're not giving ourselves time to do that.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do feel that because we didn't notice, they come back.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now they're going to come back, perhaps turn up to 11.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like a nightmare.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, I'm trying to send you a message.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: Here it is.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to really knock on your door.
• 1:03:03
  And so sometimes,
• 1:03:05
  and kind of like in fairy tales,
• 1:03:06
  when the monster shows up,
• 1:03:08
  pay attention.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's something to that.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to feel fear, but what is it trying to ask us?
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: That, again, back to the idea of the romance.
• 1:03:18
  It's like,
• 1:03:18
  how do we engage with what's showing up so we don't get caught with the choppy
• 1:03:25
  waves?
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this, this, this, this person did that, this, this, did that.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: But we go underneath and be like, oh, what is really it?
• 1:03:35
  So I tell my friends sometimes,
• 1:03:37
  don't pay attention so much to the name of the criminal.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: Pay attention to the crime.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's where it's at.
• 1:03:45
  And so I feel what's needed now is these stories where we are invited to be
• 1:03:51
  like,
• 1:03:51
  what are the images that are rising and how can we relate to it differently?
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: Don't just show me.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_00: Show me how to relate to it differently.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's my sort of.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: And just one last thing.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: I also think that the world of the in between this liminal space is.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: has different characters, kind of like the other world.
• 1:04:15
  And I also think while perhaps not all of them are really even paying
• 1:04:19
  attentionto
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: us,
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: don't care about us,
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: could be all kinds of things,
• 1:04:23
  Idofeelthatsomeofthemwanttohelpusbecausewhathappensinourworld
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: affects their world and vice versa.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's vice versa.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just us.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think some of them are trying to reach out.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_00: And be like, engage with us.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_00: We can help, like the ancestors, but even beyond that.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's why when the images to me show up,
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_00: kind of like I had the Lady Grievana show up for me,
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was like,
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: now I can be with this space in my life differently.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it will definitely.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_03: it's about moving fast and moving more slowly and not looking,
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_03: not just looking at the surface,
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_03: like you said,
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_03: and go deeper.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it's also this picking sides as to this.
• 1:05:23
  This is bad and this is good,
• 1:05:25
  which doesn't allow for the in-between either.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_03: What's the what's the crime?
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_03: So let's say, take the very controversial issue of abortion.
• 1:05:37
  And you can have women who say I'd never kill my baby and another woman would
• 1:05:41
  say
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_03: if I needed to,
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_03: I would.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_03: Even kill a baby is charged in the way I said it.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_03: I apologize for that.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_03: But to stay pregnant or to terminate a pregnancy.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_03: But what's the crime is when the choice is taken away,
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_03: not whether one woman would or one woman wouldn't.
• 1:06:01
  Because it's the choice to be able to choose whether you would or wouldn't.
• 1:06:09
  That that and we we can come to if we come together on something like that,
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_03: like I've I've given birth to three children and I would say,
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_03: well.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_03: Just sitting here,
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_03: I don't believe I would have ever considered having an abortion,
• 1:06:26
  butthatdoesn'tserveanypurposewhatsoeverbecauseIneverhadtofacethe
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_03: decision.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: That was not a threshold that was.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_03: That you had another woman might say,
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:06:37
  if I didn't want it or it would ruin my career or I thought it was defective,
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_03: I would.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_03: So we can hold very different places.
• 1:06:46
  What what is the crime is that the ability to choose for ourselves what we
• 1:06:52
  wouldor
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_03: wouldn't do has been taken away from us.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_03: The ability to choose.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we still might choose it and put our lives at risk.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_03: But when legislation or whatever comes and says,
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_03: you no longer have the right to choose,
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_03: we're going to choose for you.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so that then could bring us both together.
• 1:07:15
  IfIwanttochoosetohaveitandshewantstochoosenottohaveitorvice
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_03: versa,
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_03: where we can stand together and it's not...
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about how we live our lives.
• 1:07:27
  It's often how the right to be able to make a choice in your life is taken away.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what I think is happening,
• 1:07:36
  where we divide each other and we don't allow for ourselves to be in that
• 1:07:40
  middle
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_03: place.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_03: That I can hear your story and you can hear my story.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_03: And not that we don't have to agree,
• 1:07:51
  butwhatwecanagreeuponistherighttobeabletochooseforourselveshowwe
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_03: want to live our lives.
• 1:08:00
  The sovereignty of how do you engage with whatever choice threshold you have
• 1:08:06
  to cross.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's the romance part.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because there have been, and I've known friends and clients who...
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: They may have had children,
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: but that at some point in their lives they had to choose to terminate.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't black and white.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that it comes back to the idea of sovereignty of self.
• 1:08:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_00: we at the end of the day,
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_00: however things are structured,
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_00: we have one undeniable choice.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_00: How do we relate to what is?
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_00: That is the choice we got, really.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_00: And other choices can be taken away, can be given back.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_00: But how we relate to it, it's where it's at, I think.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that goes back to,
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_03: to me,
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_03: the romance part,
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_03: which is that it originally was about telling a story.
• 1:09:12
  That word originated with having a tale or a story that had to do with chivalry
• 1:09:18
  and
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_03: had to do with love.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: Had to do with love, yeah.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_00: Which comes back to me, to the Venusian principle of relating.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's how do we relate to this?
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we and we can change how we relate.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_00: I can start in a street.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: It could be like the tropes of romance novels.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_00: You could start enemies to lovers.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you start hating it and you love it.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's a forced proximity.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all the tropes kind of work because of that.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: In a way, we're living it that way.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we do.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_03: We are living the penny, the penny dreadful.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_00: I do think,
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_00: and kind of what you said about the troubadours singing those ballads,
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_00: that was sort of,
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: even then,
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: it was respected,
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_00: but kind of poo-pooed because it wasn't what was in the church books.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of still today, we consider these fluff books, fluff shows.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, they're nothing.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_00: They're nothing.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_00: They're guilty pleasures.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel that they carry...
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_00: because they're really tapping to what the zeitgeist is needing.
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're giving the images.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we're the equivalent of the mythologies, of the fairy tales.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I sense is that we learn things through the fairy tales,
• 1:10:44
  and they're pretty consistent throughout time as to the themes of fairy
• 1:10:49
  tales.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:10:51
  in lots of different cultures and that we're not making up new fairy tales,
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_03: but we really are in the romance.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Although my husband is a huge fan of Star Wars.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_00: So he was telling me about the whole expansion of the Star Wars universe.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, wow, they're really creating a massive myth, you know.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: so we keep creating,
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_00: and I wonder how,
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_00: going back to what you mentioned about the choice of what we do,
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_00: terminate or not terminate,
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_00: and that's just one of the heavier choices to make.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think anybody really does that lightly.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's at least the impression I have,
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_00: and also sitting with clients,
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think at least was an easy decision.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's the stories we tell around that.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel that one place that we can,
• 1:11:54
  bringourenergynowtoandishowdoourimaginationisworkingwhatkindof
• 1:12:02
  stories are we allowing to impress upon us what kind of images are we
• 1:12:07
  swallowing
• 1:12:08
  whole and not even thinking about what we're swallowing whole but i do feel
• 1:12:15
  thatwe
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_00: we do have the potential to use better images and better stories
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think,
• 1:12:24
  I hope and I feel people are hungry for that because what is being fed to us,
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of it is not nourishing imagery.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's fast.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's the fast food compared to the fine wine and the aged cheese, right?
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_03: And the sourdough bread that rises slowly.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, well, I guess one... You know, we're coming to the end here.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_00: As you said,
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_00: as an elder now,
• 1:12:58
  how do you find yourself romancing your own thresholds in this phase of life?
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_03: Mainly for me is acceptance.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I would use that word.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_03: Being...
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_03: comfortable with and joyful about what's actually happening to me and the
• 1:13:25
  acceptanceofthati'mnot20or30or40or50or60or70evenandsothethe
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_03: changes that happen in your life um
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Go hand in hand with the wisdom that you gain.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, I love to travel.
• 1:13:44
  I have to make sure that I don't make connections too brief because I can't run
• 1:13:50
  in
• 1:13:50
  the airport type of thing or pack my suitcase too heavy because I can't lift
• 1:13:54
  it.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, those are really practical day-to-day things.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_03: But to...
• 1:14:00
  Embrace and accept how the magic of of my body are all people's bodies as we
• 1:14:08
  age.
• 1:14:08
  And it just like when you had children in each early childhood each year that
• 1:14:15
  you
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_03: can see really rapid difference.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_03: between a one year old and a two year old, that kind of thing.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's happening, the aging process, it happens that way.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_03: It flips and you age as rapidly as you grew into out of childhood.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so I believe instead of focusing on,
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_03: this eternal youth and perpetuating,
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_03: like age defying creams and all the things that everybody's fixated on,
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_03: because nobody wants to admit that they're
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_03: We're in the dying process.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_03: That's the I mean, to me, that's also telling this story.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm in this stage of my life where I'm dying.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's the truth of it.
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_03: And yes,
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_03: you can you can do certain things,
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_03: eat better,
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_03: exercise,
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_03: sleep good,
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_03: all of that.
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_03: And you're dying.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't matter.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_03: If you can do all those things and drop dead at 50, jogging.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_03: So the gift, there's a gift in getting old enough to actually...
• 1:15:28
  slow down because your body's slowing down and your energy that I think is
• 1:15:34
  also
• 1:15:34
  part of what brings the wisdom in because like things are happening and you
• 1:15:39
  justgo
• 1:15:40
  quickly from one thing to the next when you're younger you have more energy
• 1:15:44
  you
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_03: have more stamina maybe you're stronger um
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_03: So for me,
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_03: this growing old in this time of my life is to be slow enough,
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_03: and maybe that's a gift my body gives to me.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_03: My body says, we have to do things differently.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_03: I've served you really well.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_03: you've walked on these feet for a long time,
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_03: and I took you where you wanted to go,
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_03: but today they hurt.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_03: So just sit down.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_03: And in that is the wisdom of being slow,
• 1:16:17
  So today I'm sitting in the hotel room writing about what I saw yesterday when
• 1:16:22
  I
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_03: was walking the streets,
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_03: that kind of thing.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Does that answer it?
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think acceptance is huge.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Once we accept, then we can relate to it differently.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're open now.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't I mean,
• 1:16:36
  why would sometimes you you read you see these like personal ads or whatever,
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_03: men,
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_03: women,
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_03: it's like,
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm 50,
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_03: but I feel 20.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_03: or I look like I'm 20 or I look and feel like I'm 20 and say,
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_03: why the heck would you imagine that you wouldn't change?
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_03: From 20 to 50.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_03: How could I mean, something's really missing here.
• 1:17:03
  If if you if you how do you know what you were supposed to look like when you got
• 1:17:09
  to this?
• 1:17:10
  And if you're telling me that you haven't changed in 20 years or 30 years,
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_03: you're either blind or stupid.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do feel like I'm more worried, like nothing changed.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_00: We have bigger problems here.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_03: We have a bigger problem here.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_00: We need a bigger boat.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_00: We need a bigger boat.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_03: So to me,
• 1:17:31
  that's that place of there's a certain level of denial within our culture
• 1:17:36
  that
• 1:17:37
  SPEAKER_03: anti-aging,
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_03: we're going to do this,
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_03: we're going to do that,
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_03: we're going to pretend like...
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was James Hillman in his book,
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_03: The Force of Character,
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_03: he said that he thought that facelifts should be illegal.
• 1:17:51
  Because the thing is that energetically,
• 1:17:54
  my face tells the story of my life.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_03: And that if I come to you as an old woman, that my face is a lie.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_03: Then there's a disconnect there.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_03: And as in our animal selves, we don't trust it.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's true.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's something happening here that doesn't.
• 1:18:20
  sync up and that's not to say you can't you know i'm not saying don't get
• 1:18:24
  plastic
• 1:18:24
  surgery or don't color your hair or whatever that's that's everybody's
• 1:18:28
  choicebuti
• 1:18:29
  think it's the energy it's the story that you're telling yourself that
• 1:18:34
  there'sa
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_03: pretense or a denial rather than acceptance of of what happens to you
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_03: Everything on earth as it ages, because we don't mature and stop there.
• 1:18:49
  We mature just like an apple on the tree gets ripe and it doesn't get riper and
• 1:18:54
  riper and riper.
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_03: It gets ripe and then it falls off the tree and it starts to rot.
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's what happens to humans.
• 1:19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think, well, one, back to the big fear of death.
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's the real big one.
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Everything to me revolves around that fear.
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Keeping youth,
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_00: not wanting to cross thresholds for change,
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_00: not wanting to see X,
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Y,
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_00: and Z,
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_00: because there's this inherent fear of death.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I think about is...
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_00: If we look to nature and the planet,
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_00: if we were to think of this planet as like a video game,
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_00: it has a certain code of how things work here.
• 1:19:43
  SPEAKER_00: It just is.
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's day and night.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's sun and moon.
• 1:19:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like you were saying, there are the two edges.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_00: The hole in between is a spectrum.
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_00: There are the two edges.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a rhythm.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_00: There are the seasons.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's death.
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Death is inherent.
• 1:20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Death and life go together here.
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes I think...
• 1:20:05
  If we were to just look at how nature has structured things,
• 1:20:08
  that's the program.
• 1:20:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's how the program runs.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's the code, to use the computer jargon.
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_00: We still go back to, we have the choice to how we relate to these.
• 1:20:21
  That's where we can create all these stories and these myths have come from
• 1:20:25
  that,
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_00: the fairy tales and all that.
• 1:20:28
  But I do feel that when we're living in times of intense change,
• 1:20:37
  then we need better stories.
• 1:20:41
  SPEAKER_00: We need to look at, but let's look at the ebb and flow of everything.
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is a core program on this planet.
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's a natural duality to things.
• 1:20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_00: We can't live forever in summer,
• 1:20:54
  which is akin to the people who run companies wanting to have more profits,
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_00: more profits.
• 1:21:00
  SPEAKER_00: It never ends.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_03: There's higher and higher.
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_03: I want a higher wage.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_03: OK.
• 1:21:11
  SPEAKER_03: But if we pay a higher wage, are you willing to pay the higher price?
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I mean, it's just it.
• 1:21:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's like that's that purpose driven.
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_03: You're going towards something rather than you're returning.
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And allowing it for the.
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_00: The return, right?
• 1:21:30
  SPEAKER_00: You can climb the mountain, but you need to rest.
• 1:21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you need to come down the mountain.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's the dance.
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just hoping that we have more people,
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_00: like you said in the beginning,
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_00: more people who step into the elder and really step it up.
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm also wondering more people to bring in different imagery, right?
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_03: Well, right.
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like if we have a foundational piece of this older wisdom,
• 1:22:03
  itprovidesthecontainerfortheyoungonescominginwiththeideasandthe
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_03: creative things.
• 1:22:10
  And that instead of denying or pushing something away,
• 1:22:15
  asking what can we co-create?
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_03: What can we bring in that's different,
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_03: that rests upon the foundation,
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_03: even though,
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_03: maybe the foundation isn't good,
• 1:22:26
  but you can't just destroy that because where you're at exists because of it.
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_03: And then how can we modify or build a different way,
• 1:22:39
  structure something differently because we're recognizing the weakness
• 1:22:44
  orthe
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_03: strength of the foundation piece.
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:22:48
  If we don't have a body of elders,
• 1:22:53
  then it's like a denial of the ancestors.
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the denial of where we're all heading there in some shape or form.
• 1:23:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to go in that direction.
• 1:23:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's a certainty.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_03: we think about ancestors as being the past,
• 1:23:12
  SPEAKER_03: but they actually are our future also because that's where you're headed.
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_03: So this is the cycle to me.
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's like,
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:23:20
  SPEAKER_03: my ancestors are behind me,
• 1:23:22
  but they're also in front of me because I'm moving in the direction of where
• 1:23:26
  they
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_03: are as they are behind me.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the beauty of this non,
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_03: it's not a timeline that's linear,
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_03: but it folds back and becomes itself.
• 1:23:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's also magical.
• 1:23:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, that's also why I think we repeat, but we repeat things.
• 1:23:47
  SPEAKER_03: It looks different, but it's a repeating of the same thing.
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 1:23:52
  it's like we're facing global change and catastrophe and we want to make it
• 1:23:58
  all
• 1:23:58
  SPEAKER_03: about us.
• 1:23:58
  SPEAKER_03: But all we have to do is look at the geology of the Earth.
• 1:24:02
  AndweknowthattherehasbeencataclysmicchangeontheEarthoverandover
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_03: that there have been ice ages and there have been,
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:24:13
  SPEAKER_03: oceans in the middle of Utah type of thing.
• 1:24:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's the Earth has always had.
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_03: Major change.
• 1:24:22
  So it's not a surprise that we're in a cycle of climate change because the
• 1:24:29
  climate
• 1:24:29
  SPEAKER_03: had to change before to have something like that happen.
• 1:24:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's always changing, always changing.
• 1:24:37
  SPEAKER_00: I do think as humans, we're funny.
• 1:24:40
  SPEAKER_00: We both crave change.
• 1:24:42
  We want the adventure and the exploration,
• 1:24:44
  but we also don't want to do it.
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_00: We want to stay put and stay comfortable.
• 1:24:51
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to get old, right?
• 1:24:56
  SPEAKER_00: But then also when we are younger,
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_00: we were like,
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_00: gosh,
• 1:24:59
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to grow up and be able to do the things I want to do.
• 1:25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll have my parents tell me what to do.
• 1:25:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we're a paradox.
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:25:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's what keeps us going.
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_00: It keeps us on the cycle.
• 1:25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:25:12
  SPEAKER_00: So.
• 1:25:13
  SPEAKER_00: And towards now that we're wrapping up,
• 1:25:15
  is there anything you feel like you could share or you would like people to
• 1:25:20
  walk
• 1:25:20
  away with when they are thinking of their own thresholds in their lives or how
• 1:25:26
  to
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_00: navigate these times that call on so much change?
• 1:25:33
  Well,
• 1:25:35
  what I would offer is to remember that time of change is not anything new or
• 1:25:42
  different.
• 1:25:42
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:25:45
  All of us always live in a time of change because everything changes all the
• 1:25:50
  time.
• 1:25:50
  SPEAKER_03: So that.
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I,
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_03: as in my,
• 1:25:54
  SPEAKER_03: the book Lost Teachings,
• 1:25:56
  SPEAKER_03: which I really love to recommend using as kind of like a map for life,
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_03: is that if you get up every day or go to bed each evening and
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_03: And step into this.
• 1:26:08
  Imagine yourself stepping into the middle of your own life and just standing
• 1:26:13
  there
• 1:26:13
  SPEAKER_03: and asking those questions like,
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_03: who am I and what time is it and where am I and what do I really need?
• 1:26:21
  And that's that's just a very simple centering practice of recognizing that
• 1:26:29
  moment
• 1:26:29
  SPEAKER_03: by moment,
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_03: what we need changes.
• 1:26:33
  Based upon where we are and what time it is and which way the wind is blowing.
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_03: And that if we each day remember who we are individually,
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_03: it allows us then to navigate change,
• 1:26:48
  SPEAKER_03: cross the thresholds,
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_03: meet at the crossroads,
• 1:26:51
  SPEAKER_03: all the things we've talked about.
• 1:26:53
  SPEAKER_03: But we always come to that space immediately.
• 1:26:56
  SPEAKER_03: as our self rather than what do people, how do people want me to show up?
• 1:27:01
  WhatdoessomebodyexpectthatIneedtolooklikeorhowIneedtobehaveor
• 1:27:06
  SPEAKER_03: here's a rule to follow?
• 1:27:08
  SPEAKER_03: That each day you come to your own center and
• 1:27:14
  And look around you and ask,
• 1:27:16
  just quickly ask yourself,
• 1:27:19
  what do I actually need today?
• 1:27:21
  SPEAKER_03: Not what do I think I, you know, what am I wanting?
• 1:27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Or how do I hope this is going to happen?
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_03: Or I wish the world was different.
• 1:27:27
  SPEAKER_03: But in this moment...
• 1:27:29
  SPEAKER_03: how can I be myself?
• 1:27:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say that that's a great place to start.
• 1:27:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about a rule.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about a formula.
• 1:27:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about a quick fix for anything.
• 1:27:41
  It's just every single day being with yourself long enough to tap in and feel.
• 1:27:50
  SPEAKER_03: And that's truth telling.
• 1:27:53
  SPEAKER_03: Most of us don't take the time to do that.
• 1:27:55
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 1:27:57
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't have to be some big ritual.
• 1:28:00
  You know,
• 1:28:00
  you don't have to light the candle or hum or sit on a cushion and ring a bell.
• 1:28:07
  You can get up out of bed and stand there for a moment and just ask yourself,
• 1:28:11
  who am I today?
• 1:28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And what do I need?
• 1:28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:28:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:28:16
  And our needs are dependent upon where we are and what time it is,
• 1:28:19
  really.
• 1:28:20
  You know,
• 1:28:20
  like where are you globally,
• 1:28:22
  but also where are you in your life?
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:28:27
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, what time?
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's wintertime.
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_03: No wonder I feel sleepy.
• 1:28:31
  SPEAKER_03: It gets dark early.
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, just stuff like that that's just simple.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_03: So monumental when we learn to live in that space that exists,
• 1:28:43
  SPEAKER_03: that's our space,
• 1:28:44
  SPEAKER_03: that's the in-between.
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_00: We are in it.
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_00: The big in-between.
• 1:28:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is it.
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is it.
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_00: We are that little bird.
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 1:28:55
  SPEAKER_03: That's beautiful.
• 1:28:56
  Good reminder that when you can't,
• 1:28:59
  you're not,
• 1:29:01
  you're flying through the space.
• 1:29:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:29:05
  So I would end with always the question people want to know how to find me.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:29:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, it's very simple because it's my name.
• 1:29:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you my name is my website.
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just IngridKincaid.com.
• 1:29:22
  SPEAKER_03: And if you want to email, send it to Ingrid at IngridKincaid.com.
• 1:29:27
  SPEAKER_03: There's no complexity there.
• 1:29:29
  SPEAKER_03: And on my website,
• 1:29:30
  youcanfindoutaboutmybooksandyoucanfindoutwhatIofferasfaras
• 1:29:35
  one-on-one counseling or spiritual counseling or coaching or any of those
• 1:29:42
  kindsof
• 1:29:43
  SPEAKER_03: things or working with the runes.
• 1:29:46
  And there's a lot of downloadable classes that I've taught in the past that
• 1:29:50
  youcan
• 1:29:53
  SPEAKER_03: buy off my website and have them to listen to.
• 1:29:56
  SPEAKER_03: So that's just as simple as that.
• 1:29:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's just my name.
• 1:30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'll, of course, add that to the show notes.
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And like I've said before,
• 1:30:05
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked with you with the runes before,
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_00: and I highly recommend it because it's very,
• 1:30:10
  SPEAKER_00: it unfurls with time.
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it really seeps in there and it works through you.
• 1:30:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I really recommend it.
• 1:30:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I'll add that to the show notes, of course.
• 1:30:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I highly also recommend people check out the other books as well.
• 1:30:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of my favorite books.
• 1:30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Runebooks, but the latest one that just came out.
• 1:30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:30:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'll add that to Ingrid.
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for crossing this threshold with me.
• 1:30:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:30:42
  SPEAKER_03: Lovely.
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_03: I love your word, the words together.
• 1:30:45
  I love the concept and I'm really,
• 1:30:47
  I appreciate that you invited me to join your podcast.
• 1:30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:30:58
  WhatstayswithmefromthisconversationishowIngridtransformedtheword
• 1:31:01
  SPEAKER_00: romance back to its roots,
• 1:31:04
  SPEAKER_00: storytelling.
• 1:31:06
  SPEAKER_00: The question isn't whether we will face thresholds,
• 1:31:09
  SPEAKER_00: but what story we will tell ourselves about them.
• 1:31:13
  SPEAKER_00: As she reminds us about crossroads and thresholds,
• 1:31:17
  SPEAKER_00: even if we try to go back to where we came from,
• 1:31:20
  SPEAKER_00: we've already been changed by the journey.
• 1:31:23
  SPEAKER_00: The person who returns isn't the same one who left.
• 1:31:28
  We don't get to choose what changes come,
• 1:31:30
  but we do get to choose the story we tell about them.
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Are we awfulizing or are we romancing?
• 1:31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Are we resisting or staying curious?
• 1:31:43
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe, most importantly, are we willing to elder?
• 1:31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Not in the sense of growing old,
• 1:31:49
  but in bringing forward the slow-cooked wisdom that only comes from living
• 1:31:54
  through
• 1:31:55
  SPEAKER_00: many crossings.
• 1:31:57
  SPEAKER_00: As Ingrid says,
• 1:31:58
  wecan'tjuststepasideandletothersfigureitoutwhileweliveoffthe
• 1:32:02
  SPEAKER_00: benefits of what came before.
• 1:32:05
  SPEAKER_00: We need to translate ancient truths for modern times.
• 1:32:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll leave you with this question.
• 1:32:13
  What story are you telling yourself about the threshold you're standing at?
• 1:32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what would it mean to approach it with the curiosity of lovers,
• 1:32:23
  SPEAKER_00: not conquering uncertainty,
• 1:32:26
  SPEAKER_00: but courting it?
• 1:32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, this is Romancing the Threshold.
• 1:32:31
  SPEAKER_00: May your crossings bring you home to yourself changed.