Latest / Walk Talk: Faith in Motion / Is Judas in Heaven?
Transcript
- Pj Verdin: Judas Iscariot, the disciple who betrayed Jesus and then went and hung himself. Now, most Christians would agree that that sounds like a one-way ticket to hell. Well, we're going to talk about how they could be wrong and a whole lot more on today's episode of The Walk Talk. man, brother. Randy: Wow, what a topic. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Man, so you know, it it's funny because this is a conversation that I've had that that kind of started in in in other places. so you know it started off in in a more sensitive topic of of of suicide. you Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: know, I have someone who I go to church with that I'm pretty close with and man he had a a a huge a huge gang of friends in in high school, they all graduated. You know, like seven, eight of them or something like that. And and and within a couple of years of graduation, he said like five of them had ultimately took their own lives and and you know, Randy: wow. Pj Verdin: and and and and being in the area that we're from, you know, which is heavily Catholic, you know, their doctrine teaches that if you commit suicide, you go straight to hell. and and Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: and I think that that that's mainly rooted in their belief of you're not able to do the final rites if you take your own life or something like that. But anyways, I do know that that's widely what they're they teach. And and and and because of that, I think that there's a lot of other denominations who would agree, like, yep, if you commit suicide, you're going to hell. And so he and I were having this conversation and I was like, well, you know, from the Bible that I read, it says that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. So I I would say that there, you know, there there may be some hope there for for your your friends, you know, just easing his comfort. and then I guess that topic, God is talking about Judas. And and and I'll be honest, initially I was leaning more towards, you know, the goodness of God and in his character that I see. I I I was, you know, leaning more towards, you know what, I think that Even though Judas betrayed Jesus, had he not taken his own life, that he could have repented, asked for forgiveness, and been granted salvation. Like that's that's the the position that that I I I held. Well, I ended up having a conversation, oddly enough, with mom, and she was like, W wait a minute. She was like, We we kind of breeze over Matthew twenty seven. Right? Is it I I I believe that's the verse. Let me let me pull that up. And she she was like, you know, she said that ultimately she was having a conversation with somebody else and they were talking about this same thing. And so that right there let me know, like, man, maybe we should kind of look into this. You know what I mean? Because apparently, you know, Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: people are talking about it in the in these, you know, in in these little conversations, which is great. Randy: Yeah, it it is great. It's a it it's and we serve a big, you know, gracious, merciful God. So I think it's it's a good, you know, conversation for us to have. before we get into it too much though, I just want to let you know that you know, this past week has been just a week full of blessings for me and for my company, Forge Pj Verdin: Amen. Randy: Point. And I just wanna, you know, just give a big shout out and thank you to the Lord for for all that he's doing. you know, for those of you who who you know who know, you know, I have my own consulting company. I do lean and leadership, continuous improvement, Six Sigma, training, coaching, workshop facilitation, and just got a pretty good contract with a customer that I think is gonna keep me Pj Verdin: Amen. Randy: pretty busy for a while. and so just it's just a big blessing and just a big praise report there that I just wanted to share with you and with all of our listeners, man. because, you know, outside of this, we both got a lot going on in our lives and you know, I think it's important for us to recognize and actually count our blessings as we get them and you know, be thankful for all that the Lord is doing. So Pj Verdin: Absolutely, man. God is good and and glory to him, man. That's that's awesome, man. I'm I'm proud of you. That's that's great news, man. Heck yeah. I love hearing it. Randy: Yeah, yeah, thank you. And so, you know, I I'm I it's, you know, one of the privileges of being independent and out of the corporate world is, you know, more time to do things like this. you know, working with you on this podcast frees me up to, you know, work with, you know, other religious organizations, churches, hospitals, groups that I thought I would never have been able to work with. and now I got a new manufacturing company that I'm working with as well. And so, you know, it's just it's just been really good. It's been good. It's been less than a year that I've been in business for myself. And I've just done so many things that I never thought I would do or had the time to do. And it's just been all just the Lord opening doors, the opening doors and and just helping me to connect with the right people to build the relationships that I need. And so, you know, I just wanted to give them a big shout out and and a praise report there. So Pj Verdin: Come on. Come on man, for I know the plans that I have for you. Plans to prosper you. Come on, I love it. Awesome. Good good stuff. Randy: That's that's right. That's right. And so, I mean, God has been very gracious to me. And so, you know, I'm I know he's a God of grace. I know he's a god God of mercy. he has shown me so many times throughout my life as I've been fired in the past, laid off in the past. you know, and you know, he's moved us across the country as different opportunities has has come up. And looking back, I always see the hand of God in my life. And there's been some instances where I've actually been able to see it real time. And that's always a little bit harder to be present in the moment and actually, you know, have faith and trust what God's doing in the moment. It's it's usually, you know, we look backwards and we see it and we're like, man, I I didn't even know what was happening, but now I could see it. It's even more awesome when you're able to recognize it in the moment. And so, you Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy: know, it it's it's it's just one of those things, man, where you know, God God is moving and and you know, I try to stay moving with him as much as possible and and and do the things that he's put on my heart to do and and You know, like like like this podcast and this conversation that we're gonna have today, which is definitely high up on that list. Pj Verdin: Absolutely, man. And and that's what I like. Whenever you're able to keep your your eyes focused on him and and be heavenly minded even in those valleys, that's when that's where the growth actually happens. You know, it whenever you make it to the mountaintop, you rarely see a bunch of trees up there. You know what I mean? All the growth growth happens in the valley. So that's that's awesome stuff. And and and getting back to Randy: Yeah, hundred percent. Pj Verdin: getting back to Judas, man, you know, I I I feel like one of the the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation is because, you know, you hear You you hear Judas get used as a catalyst for non believers trying to say, well, if God is so good, why would he just create Judas just to send him to hell? Or why would he harden Pharaoh's heart or you know, these things. And it's like, well, Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: hold up, man. You know, like you're you you're you're talking about something that you might not fully be aware of. And and and look, I mean, again, you know, it we whenever you're you're talking about Jesus, it's like you know, it's almost synonymous that Judas gets brought up because you have to have an antagonist, right? You have to have a villain. And that's who Randy: Sure, sure. Pj Verdin: ultimately Judas was. But then, you know, whenever whenever you you have this new heart that that loves everybody and wants, you know, kind of like you know, God, like I don't necessarily find comfort in in in knowing that anybody's going to hell. I mean, yeah, some some people's Actions you can say, well, he deserved it. Like, well, we kind of all deserved it. He might have been the one who betrayed him, but we all killed him, I think. You know what I mean? Randy: Yeah, i exactly. And at the end of the day, God doesn't just choose hell for anyone. We choose hell. First of Pj Verdin: Right. Right, right. Randy: all, we all deserve hell because all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Second, by not choosing God, we are effectively choosing our own will and choosing to make our own selves Lord of our own lives and and the God of our own worlds. And by doing that, like the by default, you know. We would it heaven would be hell for us if we were to go to heaven then and have to submit ourselves to an authority that we spent our whole lives rebelling against, that would be Pj Verdin: Avoid it, yeah. Randy: hell effectively for us. So, you know, it there's a lot of different ways to look at this thing. I definitely don't subscribe to the mentality that God just creates people like Judas for wrath and for destruction. I definitely think he uses their own inclinations and the actions that they were already going to do. For his purposes though, like directing the flow Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy: of a river versus just creating, you know, the flow of the river. Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Cool. So if you if you don't mind, I'm gonna jump into this. So this is Matthew twenty-seven. this is starting in verse one in the New King James Version. so it says, When morning came, all the chief priests and elders of the people plotted against Jesus to put him to death, and when they had bound him, they led him away and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. Then Judas, his betrayer, seeing that he had been condemned, was remorseful. And brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, I have sinned by betraying innocent blood. And they said, What is this to us? You see it, you see to it. Excuse me. He then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed and went and hanged himself. So that's that's basically as quick as that goes, right? So now Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: what what mom and I were discussing here was, mind you, Jesus was just taken into custody. So what that tells me in the context is that the old covenant is still in play. We're, I mean, we're in the fading moments of it, but the old covenant is still in play. So according to the old covenant, Judas went to the high priests who were the ones who you had to go and and make, you know, bring your your atonement to, and and and he brought back 30 pieces of silver. And he he throws it at them and they they're like, what is this to us? You know, he's like, I I just realize that I've I've betrayed innocent blood. And and so Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: from my perspective, you know, that acknowledgement means that he believed that Jesus was innocent of what they were accusing him of, right? Now they were their their accusation was this dude's a blasphemer. He's saying he's the son of God. That's what he's guilty of, according to to the priest. And and Judas is saying, No, he he's innocent. I've I've betrayed innocent blood. And so he goes give him back their their silver and they say you see to it. And so what does he do next? Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: He goes and hangs himself, which we know, right? In order for there to be forgiveness, there has to be a sacrifice. So he was like, Well, if y'all are not going to help me atone for what I just admitted that I did, I'm repenting to you. I'm I'm seeking atonement. Y'all are saying There's no you're not gonna sacrifice anything to forgive me of this sin. I'm gonna go and hang myself. And so I was like, Whoa, man, to me, I I kinda see an evidence in alignment with the way they believed and and and what needed to happen in the old covenant, for there to at least be a potential that one day you you may see old Judas in in in heaven. What are your thoughts? Randy: Wow, that's a pretty interesting theory, man. That that that is. So I think, you know, most Christians, and like you alluded to earlier, I think a lot of it has to do with the Catholic tradition and the Catholic view on suicide. you know, most Christians would probably say the opposite, that he is most certainly in you know, in hell. and not just because of the suicide, but that's more like the icing on the cake. More more so because he betrayed Jesus, right? And the Bible does say it would be better for that person to not have been born, right? so yeah, I don't know. I I I I don't know. Pj Verdin: Right, so so that that that reference that you just gave, so that's Matthew twenty six, twenty four. and this is the ESV it's it says Randy: Okay. Do you have it pulled up? Can you share share your screen as you're reading it? Pj Verdin: Sure. So like I said, this is the ESV version. Right. Randy: All right, so Matthew twenty six, twenty four, okay. Pj Verdin: It says the son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe, which we know is like basically like a curse, but woe to that man by whom the son of man is betrayed. It would have been better for that man if he had not been born. Right? So now that's Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: that's one of those verses that that kind of, you know, has most people leaning towards like, well, okay, then he It it would been better for him to not have been born. But it it it's funny to me because it's like i is this a euphemism? Like, is this a way of saying, like, man, s somebody to mess up that that bad, it would have been better for you to not have been born. That's like saying, you know, I'm gonna slap you so hard your kids are gonna feel it. You know what I mean? Like, I I I think about it on Randy: It it very well yeah, it could be. I mean, i i why is it why is it better? Why would it be better? Is it because he's gonna be spinning eternity in hell or because he's gonna be seen for all eternity as the person who betrayed, you know, Jesus? Like it could be multiple reasons. Pj Verdin: Right. Yeah, you multiple Yeah, you have to wear that title. And then look, I'll I'll real quick I'll shift to the other verse that a lot of people notate as far as evidence of why Judas was going to hell, which is John seventeen twelve, and this is in the NIV. this is Jesus speaking. It says While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by the name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction, so that the scripture would be fulfilled. So now Randy: I still see Matthew Pj Verdin: Mm. Randy: I still see Matthew twenty six on the screen. Pj Verdin: I'm I I I apologize. It it it must not have whenever I switched screens it stayed on on the screen that I was on. I'm sorry. Let me see. Randy: That's all right. Just we'll cut that part out. Just just read it over. Pj Verdin: Okay. So this is the other verse that that kind of points people in the direction of of Judas definitely going to hell. So this is in the NIV version. This is John 17, 12, and this is Jesus speaking. He says, While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by the name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction, so that the scripture would be fulfilled. And again, that's the NIV version. So Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: so those are the two main verses that that I've kind of come across where where people are like, well this is clearly telling us that that Judas went to hell. Now one thing that I would like to to just remind people is if you if you look in in the scriptures in in the gospels, whenever it's talking about the Last Supper, right? It it it makes it clear that Satan enters Judas, at which point Jesus tells him, Go and do what you're gonna do quickly, right? Wait until Randy: A at which point at which point Satan gives Jesus gives Satan permission. Yeah. Pj Verdin: Permission, like like echoing Job, right? And that's that's a that's another good conversation for for maybe another episode. But but you're a hundred percent right. But but I think it's important to to to notice who's more often referred to as as the son of perdition? Satan, right? Who Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: who was the the one that's that's ultimately doomed? Satan. So now is this is this basically God speaking about the one. inhabiting Judas whenever this transgression occurred, or is he talking about Judas directly, specifically. I I mean I I I don't know. Randy: I th I yeah, I I I could see the argument there. I mean I I definitely think we're leaning more towards Judas. I definitely think the the overall context to me implies we're talking about Judas. Satan goes without saying he's already doomed to destruction, but I Pj Verdin: Right. Well well but that but that's what I'm saying. Basically whenever Judas d committed this betrayal, he he was in fact inhabited by Satan, right? And Randy: And and the devil made me do it has been a the excuse of murderers and rapists and all sorts of criminals ever since. Pj Verdin: And and this yeah, this is this might have been the first account of that being, you know, the case and and might be the only factual. You know what I mean? Because I mean scripture does tell us that that Satan entered Judas whenever he went and and did this thing. And and Randy: Right. Right. Pj Verdin: and what's crazy to me is it what it what it sounds like to me is okay, Satan leaves and then here goes Judas and he's my goodness, what did I do? Let me go repent and make Randy: Yeah. Well Pj Verdin: atonement for this thing. Randy: Well, I definitely would say so my my thoughts are twofold. first off, I definitely don't think Judas is in hell. Judas is not in hell. And the reason I would say that well what did you say? Pj Verdin: Right. Not currently in hell. I said not currently in hell. Randy: Yeah, I would say, well, you added the word curtainly, but I Pj Verdin: Ha ha. Randy: definitely would say he is not in hell. And the reason why I would say he is not in hell is because I would say nobody is in hell. just like I would say that nobody is in heaven, at least not in heaven the way we generally think of it. And this is going all the way back to when we had the conversation about the about heaven and the kingdom of heaven. I honestly believe that everyone who has passed away, including Judas. Are all asleep waiting for the day of resurrection when they'll be judged. and that's the the the plight of all of us when we we die is we, you know, one second we're here, then the next second we are at the judgment. Because for the person it seems instantaneous, even though time moves on, and for us, in time it seems like it's been thousands of years, which it has. But I totally believe that you know, there's gonna be a great judgment, everyone's gonna be resurrected. And then some are gonna be, you know, they're gonna be, they're gonna be doomed to perish. And others are gonna be you know, given everlasting life. Not because they are given it in that moment, but because they already had it, because they died with it, because they received the Holy Spirit of God during their life. So they have eternal life. So I would say I'm pretty confident he's not in hell. Pj Verdin: Well, and you know, it was interesting and and I remember telling you like I whenever we kind of talked about it and that was your response, I was like, hmm. So, you know, I I sat there and I I I thought about that for a minute and I'm like, you know, it heaven and hell is one of those things like that, you know, we we we've talked about it before. We have a lot of knowledge about or there's a lot of things said about it, but we have I think little knowledge, right? And and I think that there's a pretty Clear cut, like doesn't matter w if you believe in God or not or what denomination, like people think, you die, you're either going to heaven or hell right then. Like you're you're gonna as soon as your eyes are closed, you're in one or the other. And and and you know, it it's it's crazy because you know, whenever you said that I'm I I thought about it and I'm I'm looking into my Bible and and then, you know, it it does talk about how even whenever the rapture happens or the catching away happens, that that the The dead are gonna rise first, right? So then I was like, Okay, well, like so i is that like saying, they're in heaven, then God sends them back down and says, Hey, go yeah, yeah, yeah, go down there and come back up. Randy: Sends them back to rise. Yeah, that that wouldn't make any sense. Pj Verdin: Like so I I was like, Man, so that and and that that opened up a whole nother like just I was like, Man, hold up, you know, it 'cause it's one of those things whenever you realize Go a go ahead. Randy: Yeah. And and and also Yeah. Well and I was gonna say, and also you got the stu the story of King Saul you know, talking to what's her name? I forget yeah, I he goes to the medium, Pj Verdin: Right. No no no Samuel, Samuel. Yeah. Whenever he goes to the medium, I forgot yeah Randy: I forgot her name, and she brings Samuel back. From where? From heaven or from Abraham's Pj Verdin: Right. Right, right, yeah. Randy: bosom, or was it just that he was asleep, like Lazarus? And got Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: resurrected for a minute, his spirit at least was resurrected for him to talk Pj Verdin: And and and like we we Randy: to. Yeah. Pj Verdin: yeah, like we talked about, like that that makes more sense, right? That that this medium she I I doubt she had the power to pull Samuel out of heaven. Now, if he was asleep, Randy: Right, right. Pj Verdin: you know what I mean? Yeah, she may have been able to awake his consciousness and you know what I mean? And and look, I know that that's another one of those things that people debate. Was it really Samuel or was it, you know, this, that, the other? And and and I mean that that is what it Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Pj Verdin: is. But I all I would say Is that if it really was Samuel, it would make more sense that he was asleep and she was basically able to wake him up than to pull him from heaven, you know? Randy: It it it makes sense to me. Yeah, I mean it makes sense to me. It aligns with the way I interpret those verses about the resurrection and the judgment. And and look, this goes back, you know, you know, pre Christianity. This is the way even, you know, the first century, you know, second temple Judaism looked at things. I mean, I know you had the whole, you know, split between the scribes and the Pharisees over whether or not there was gonna be a resurrection, they they debated that. But I don't think either one of them debated that there was going to be like a day of judgment. And so, you know, they the the the great and terrible day of the Lord, the day that the Lord comes down to judge, you know, the heavens and the earth. And so it's like, and one group basically looked at it and said, Yeah, and then we're all gonna be resurrected. The dead are gonna be resurrected too, to be judged. Everyone's gonna be judged, the living and the dead. And Pj Verdin: Right. Right. Randy: you know, you had other people who said, there is no resurrection. Well, obviously, we know there is resurrection now because Jesus proved it. so therefore we know that that's a thing, and therefore that makes the most logical sense according to other verses we read in the Bible, that that's when you know the judgment happens, is you know, there's a resurrection, there's a judgment, and that's where those, you know, that fork in the road happens. And you either, you know, find yourself in one place or the other, you know, and who knows what that really looks like. I know there's so many debates around this topic, Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: because then you get it down the the rabbit hole of well is hell eternal suffering or is it like you eventually eventually like you just cease to exist? You know, what what does that actually mean? And, you know, here we are. Pj Verdin: Right, right, yeah. And and I I like I don't remember who exactly it was who's who said it. I remember it was as some old old pastor that I I've watched a clip of and and he was like, Man, he's like, you know, sometimes it's best you you you you have to let the Bible e explain itself. But he's like, use the verses that are more clear to explain the ones that are not so clear. You know what mean? And and that's Randy: Mm. Yes, yes. Pj Verdin: like I I I see that and and and I was like, Man, that's that's so true because there are I mean, y what is it like something like sixty three different Correlating parts of the Bible, like across it, and and it just, you know, it all shows the that the divinity of the word. But it's like, man, Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Pj Verdin: there's a lot in there that is is is repetitive because God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. So you see the consistency in his his nature. but you can use those things to to figure out, like, man, this is this looks crazy over here. Well, if I already know it was clearly explained here, how does that translate to over here? Is are are these things in alignment with each other or they they kind of, you know, not because if we're Randy: Right. Right. Pj Verdin: if we're using where it's clear to understand the the not so clear part, then it'll kinda give you a better direction. Randy: Well and and the clear part to me in the whole in the whole conversation is the fact that yeah, there's gonna be a resurrection and a judgment, and until then nobody is at either place because neither place exists yet. Because the hell, at least the way it's described, doesn't exist, at least in my opinion, yet. and same thing with heaven. I I do believe that there is going to be a whole just like there's a transformation that happens with us to where we go from, you know, being You know, sinners to be in saints, and there's a renewal process. I do believe that you know this earth is going to go through a renewal process to where we're back to the state that God originally created this earth. And so that hasn't happened yet. So therefore, heaven doesn't exist yet in my mind. And so therefore hell doesn't exist yet. To me, I just see it as everyone's asleep waiting the judgment, and then you're gonna be on one of two trains: the train of destruction away from God, or the train of renewal. in life, you know, moving towards Pj Verdin: Well, I I Randy: God. Pj Verdin: I would say I believe that heaven exists already currently because of, you know, the g Genesis and creation and and, you know, scriptures saying that Jesus is currently seated on the throne in heaven at the right hand of the Father. Like so I mean but but I think it's the the idea like, you know, for for the longest time I thought hell was, you know, the Randy: Well, well, that's a good point. Let me jump in real quick because that's a good point. So I I'm I'm referring to heaven in terms of like an afterlife for humans, right? Because I agree with Pj Verdin: Right. Okay. Randy: you. There are, you know, the Bible talks about different levels of heaven, right? And there's definitely the the the domain of God where God is right now. Pj Verdin: Right, right. Randy: but I see, you know, in Revelations a new heaven and a new earth, which some interpret as like the old one. Of both of those are destroyed completely and they're totally remade. I see it more as a renewal. Pj Verdin: Yes. Randy: and that's why it's new. And that's where we're gonna be. We're essentially our heaven is gonna be on this new earth. So I agree with you that yeah, there is there is a heaven that exists now where God and Jesus is, and and there's a whole host of spiritual beings there. But I think in in terms of what most people think of in in terms of heaven as like the afterlife destination of humans, that I don't believe exists yet. That's that's Pj Verdin: Right r right, right, yeah, yeah. Randy: what I meant. Let me be s just to be specific. Pj Verdin: Well I I'm I'm thank you for clarifying that, brother, because you know, I think that on a very surface level we think of it very black and white, like heaven is a forever good place Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: with with God and hell is a forever bad place for for sinners. But it it's funny Randy: Well and let me in in i real quick too, that whole concept is like a pagan concept too. I don't know if you're aware of that. That black and white afterlife destination. Pj Verdin: Yeah, yeah. I hundred percent. Well, but the the funny thing that I was I was just gonna say is like even with that concept of hell being like the the final it's like, well no, because Revelation talks about how hell itself is gonna be picked up and thrown into the lake of fire. So it's like, wait a minute, that's you know, it's like something that's able it's like think of it like a big cage, you know what I It's it's just a it's just a crazy concept. But you know, you have to get in there Randy: Well, even in even in that conversation, even in those scriptures where it talks about like death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire, like even there, like you know, the word Hades, right? That's like a a Greek word, right? That that that was used and and translated into Septuagint. What is the original word that was scry written down or what was the original intent? I I I know I'm not smart enough to to know, but I do think that even in just using that word, there was connotations. And there was culture behind it from the pagans that, you know, pe had people thinking in a certain mindset. And then you have like, you know, works of fiction like Dante's Inferno and things like that that popular popularize like these notions that have like a lot of pagan background to them. And it's so funny because, you know, you have works of fiction like you know, like books and literature and also movies that have influenced people's view of heaven and hell quite a bit. Pj Verdin: Right. Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, I I I think i it's crazy because, you know I guess you you can say from the outside looking in, you know, people have more More spirituality, more biblical undertones than they realize going on in their everyday lives. And and and then, you know, it's like whenever you you don't realize that that those are all seeds that are kinda planted and then whenever you decide like, Hey, you know what, I wanna look into this God thing, you're coming over with a lot of preconceived notions and baggage of things that are not even actually in the Bible, but people tie them to it all the Randy: Right, right. Pj Verdin: time. That's why you get a bunch of these things that that people think the Bible says that it does it doesn't, you know what I mean? And and I think we've Randy: Hundred percent. Pj Verdin: We've discussed a lot of that stuff. but but yeah, man, I and I I think that for the most part, it's like, you know, even there there's so many people, man, that that, you know, are you know, it's like I I we we've talked about how we've seen this big influx and and what seems to be a revival and and so many people coming to God and and you know, people Randy: Hey, Justin Bieber at the World Cup, man. Sing sink Pj Verdin: Right. See I Randy: singing about Jesus at the World Cup. And who else? There was someone Pj Verdin: I Randy: else that just came out recently telling everyone that they were baptized and now they're saved. Who was it? Another Pj Verdin: Well Randy: like celebrity. Pj Verdin: well and see Justin Bieber's he's been he's been on his journey for I think a couple of years now, man, and and glory to God for that. But but the the point I'm I'm getting to is is is that's great, but there's so many people that that I I know there there's I'll say there's a few people that I know personally who who have come to the Lord and I'm like, Man, praise God, that's that's awesome. And then, you know, they'll reach out and we'll we'll get into these conversations and and you know they're I I I I I love having the conversations. You know, whether it it it's in front of a camera or not. But you know, one one consistent thing that I've I've noticed in having these conversations is you know, they're they have all these questions which I don't mind answering, but then I'm like, Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: I'm like, where are you at in your Bible? And they're like, well, I haven't read my Bible. And I'm like, Bro, Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: what are you doing? Like, how how you know, they're like, But you know, I I talk to God and and he he talks back to me and I'm like, How do you know? You don't even know what he says or what he has said. Like, how do you know that that's God talking to you? You know, and I'm like, that's a dangerous place to be. I'm like, your discernment is Randy: That's a good point. You gotta you gotta be in the word so you could know when it's actually God because it's consistent what's in the word. Pj Verdin: A hundred percent. You and that's that's what you weigh everything else against. And and you know, he he did use the the big biblical word discernment. I use my discernment, I'm like, H how? How you know what I mean? Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: It's like you you you you have to check that against the word, and if you're not in it, then you don't know that that's in alignment with the word. And and I told him I'm like, Man, you know how many people the devil blesses, and I know that probably sounds crazy, and they think it's from God, you know what I mean? Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: And and it's in it's in order to distract them or make them comfortable in the situation so they stop seeking. It's like, man, just give everything they want, you know what I mean? And and make f think think Randy: Yeah, yeah. Pj Verdin: that, i it it's God. You know what I mean? And it's like, well, okay, is this in alignment with the word or not? You know what I mean? Randy: Yep. Yep. So so back to Judas and where Judas is. So he he can't be in hell right now. We both pretty much agree to that, but where is he headed? So you're saying that from what you read, he followed old covenant processes and procedure that showed repentance. And therefore, it sounds like you're saying you lean on the side of he's actually saved. Pj Verdin: I honestly I I would f align myself with smack dab in the middle. Like I I I can see both sides, but Randy: You're gonna sit on the fence. Pj Verdin: well well and and and here's why because ultimately I mean it's not for us to say who goes to heaven or hell. We know that. But but at the end of the Randy: Absolutely. Pj Verdin: at the end of the day, no matter what, I think the the the louder point of of no matter which way you know, God decides to to judge him and and and send you know, h he goes. I think that the latter point is is just to to show that, you know what, I I think that it's possible, even for somebody who betrayed Jesus like Judas, because of how good our God is, it it it's at least a possibility. And I think that that's something that people need to know because there's, you know, I've also talked to a lot of people who think that they're too far gone like, man, God would never. And I'm like, you don't you don't know that. So I mean whenever you can you can kind of say, hey look, man, we can't even definitively say. And and and I'd I maybe that's fair to say, maybe it's not. Maybe somebody would be like, no, you're crazy. Those other points don't even make sense. I know that I think a lot of theologians align more with the the the idea that like no, he's definitely in hell. And and look, that's that that may be true. But I I just, you know, I think that it there there At least there's a chance. And and I think that that's a good that's a good thing. Randy: I think that's an interesting take, and I think you're right. I think that there are a lot of people who think, Well, you know, I've committed too many sins. I'm too far gone. I can't be forgiven at this point. I've rejected God for too long and done too much. And you know, if there were any good arguments that someone like Judas himself who portr who portrayed Jesus could potentially have been saved, then that does you know, seem to to to Give hope to people who think they're too far gone. and I would say, you know, my perspective is I I'm with you that I don't judge either way. I would probably say I lean more on the side of the evidence to me, shows that he died without believing in Jesus Christ, without having placed his faith in God. so therefore I I don't think he was saved, but I definitely could see the argument that he did seem Like he was remorseful, if nothing else, over having betrayed Jesus. I mean, like you mentioned, he he gave the money back, right? He tried to give the money back. And then and then it tells us in Acts that you know apparently the money, you know, he tried to give back wasn't received by the by the by the Pharisees, by the priest. so he used it to buy a field, right? so yeah, I mean, so he didn't take the money for his own personal gain, regardless of the fact that they wouldn't take it back. So it does seem like there was some element of remorse or repentance there. Is that enough? Is that enough to save him? my opinion, no, only faith could save him. you know, I think Hebrews makes it pretty clear that prior to the crucifixion. you know, people under the old covenant were saved in the same way that we are saved today, which is through faith in Jesus Christ. Now they didn't have the name Jesus, because Jesus hadn't lived yet, but they had faith in, you know, the messiah that was to come. And they just had faith going forward that there was going to be a messiah. We have faith going backwards that there was a messiah and and there is Pj Verdin: Wasn't or is a messiah, yeah. Randy: a messiah. Judas lived at that moment and rejected the messiah. So to me, he falls in the same place as the chief. priests and the f the scribes and Pharisees who also were contemporaries, you know, relying on the system that they had and rejected the Messiah. So therefore to me I I think, you know, he's was not saved because he rejected the Messiah. Pj Verdin: Yeah, I and and you know, I I kinda I kinda wish that there was maybe a a couple more details to the story. I know I I think we you and I may have had the the conversation before and I wanna say it's in maybe Luke, whenever it's talking about the the Last Supper and and Jesus is like, you know, one of y'all is gonna betray me and like all Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: all the other disciples are like, Lord, Lord, is it me? And then Judas is like, you know, rabbi Is it I? And he's You said it. And it's like, you know, but but the the this the the distinction there was that the other eleven disciples called him Lord and Judas called him Rabbi, which means that the other eleven accepted Jesus as their Lord and he only looked at him as a teacher. And so like I with that distinction, seeing Randy: Interesting. Pj Verdin: seeing that there, like I, you know, like maybe, yeah, you may he could have he could have maybe done himself a favor if if he was like, you know what? I not only did I I betray innocent blood, but I betrayed my Lord and I was wrong or something. Now a Randy: Well, and so and so let me just say something there. Cause earlier you said that you know, you kind of interpreted him saying he betrayed innocent blood. And correct me if I got this wrong, but I the way I heard you say it was you took him saying that he betrayed innocent blood as he believed that Jesus wasn't a blasphemer, therefore he was the Christ, the the the Messiah. Is that is that true? Pj Verdin: Well I I I yeah, I I think that that's the closest that we can see, like be because he he bas he does say I I'd I've betrayed innocent blood. And so like i in in my train of of thinking, I'm like, this is the only like this is this is one of the the biggest pieces that makes me feel like maybe he he did acknowledge that Jesus was who he said he was because that's the whole reason why Jesus was, you know, Randy: Okay, so he was charged and arrested and crucified for claiming to be God, therefore for blasphemy. And so you're saying you you kind of see him saying, Hey, he's innocent of that stuff. I betrayed an innocent person. Well Well well Okay, so Pj Verdin: Yeah, he's innocent. Yeah. Yeah. I betrayed it because he is who he said he is. You know what I mean? Like Randy: and that's and that's one possible way of interpreting it. Here's how I would kind of look at it, you know, just a slightly different spit on it. A person could be innocent, they could be found not guilty by reasons of insanity as well. And I don't know if you've ever heard this argument. You probably have, but people, you know, say that you know, when you're looking when you're trying to answer the question, you know, who do you say I am? Which is what Jesus asked his disciples, right? First, he asked, What do people who do people say I am? And then he said, 'Who do you say I am?' Really, you could only answer that one of three ways, right? Liar, Lord, or lunatic, right? So he either was who he said he was, he's Lord, he's he's God in the flesh, he's a total liar, therefore, he'd be guilty of blasphemy. He's a lunatic, he really don't know what he's saying. He's a crazy person, therefore, he can't be guilty because he's crazy. So, to me, I very well could see Judas as saying, Man, this guy, he's he's definitely not Lord, but I don't think he's just lying. He's maybe he's a crazy person. So I would say that my the my my my thought would be: yes, it could very well be that G Judas was saying that he portrayed innocent blood because he believed Jesus was Lord. But it equally could be that he just believed that Jesus was just a crazy person. Pj Verdin: And I don't think that because like I just said, he referred to him a if nothing else, not as Lord, but as teacher, rabbi, right? So why would he be learning from a lunatic? He's seen what Jesus was able to do and was capable of doing. And and I would say this, you know, one of my favorite stories, which is the thief on the cross, there's equally as much evidence, well not not equally, let me take that back. But I mean, whenever the the thief on the cross never says, Hey, I believe that you're Jesus, I believe that you're the Messiah, he just says, Hey, remember me and Jesus says, You can come. Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: So he it's not right, Randy: He he showed faith in that statement. Pj Verdin: right, right. But but I mean that's the only like if the only thing we wouldn't have known that that was an act of true faith because Jesus' response to him was because Jesus knew his heart. We don't know, but he but there's Randy: Right, right. Pj Verdin: not there there was no like there's no detail saying, what and that showed that he had faith and Jesus said, You can come. Like you know what I mean? So it's like just just because Jesus wasn't present to affirm like, wow, he he he believes that I I'm innocent, then he can come too. You know what I mean? Like there's still it it's like there you still have to kind of like read what's going on in the in the background kind of. Randy: Yeah, a hundred a hundred percent. And you're right. Only Jesus knows a person's heart. And that's why the thief on the cross, you know, he he told him you'll be with me in paradise because he could see his heart. And even though he might not have like, you know, followed the process and procedure and, you know, all that, he he showed that he was, you know, he believed in him through what he said in in those moments. And Jesus knew that he was genuine because he knew his heart. and you're right, we don't get that kind of commentary for Judas. I I just, you know, I think it's it's equally possible that Judas, you know, was was repentful, he was remorseful, and he actually in those final moments somehow came to believe that Jesus was Lord and he had but you know made the most gravest mistake in betraying God. I also think it's equally possible that, you know, this person he kind of you know had questions about and early on he thought. Maybe there was something to him, but the more he followed him, the less he believed and eventually came to this conclusion that, yeah, this guy is, you know, he he's not right. And he's following him around at this point because either it's gonna gain him, he's waiting to see how it's gonna pan out. He was in charge of the money. So maybe he's thinking, maybe I'll make some money off of this thing, or maybe he's just waiting for the right time to exit. and and then he sees his opportunity to just betray this guy and and make some profit off of it. Not thinking like, you know, at the at the time that he was gonna be, you know, sentencing an innocent person to death, but just thinking like this is my way out. This guy is crazy and I'm not following him anymore. And and you know, they want it they're gonna get him no matter what. So I might as well just assist in the process. I I don't know. I I just I th I just could kind of see the possibilities there, you know, Pj Verdin: for sure. Randy: you know, being being either one. Pj Verdin: Yeah. And you know, after oddly enough, you know, after we did our little series on on these church mega pastors, I would say, if nothing else, take this story of of Judas as as a warning and and as maybe, you know, a a little glimmer of hope that followers of of Jesus who are currently and actively betraying him right now by preaching doctrines that are, you know, bringing people in the wrong direction that, you know, hey look, you know what? you can you can be forgiven no matter what as long as you you actually do go through the process you know what i mean you do repent and you do you know i i accept and and and all the things like man you know i i i think that if nothing else like you know learn from that example because no matter what i i would say it and and so we we we can't know definitively but but i guess just humor me in in and answering this question which is the initial stance that I that I held on this. I mean, would would you say, even with those those scriptures about the son of perdition and you know he wish he was never born and and and those things, do you think that if Judas would have not hung himself and you know, he sees, you know, he he's a he's an outcast, whatever, you know, all the things And he sees Peter and the other apostles and maybe even sees Jesus come back himself and is like, I was I was so wrong. I I mean, do you believe that he could have achieved salvation if if he would have not have hung himself? Randy: Well, yeah, so I would say absolutely. I definitely believe, like I said earlier, God is a God of mercy and grace and forgiveness. Pj Verdin: Hundred percent, yeah. Randy: And, you know, no one is beyond saving. If if if if he had lived long enough to really repent and, you know, see the resurrected Christ and, you know, fall down, you know, maybe do like Thomas did and feel the holes in his hand and say, you know, my Lord and my God, you know, I was wrong. Would God would God have forgiven him and saved him? Yeah, I I believe so. Absolutely. so you know, I I definitely think that, you know, our God is big enough and gracious enough. And and I think that's why we get the examples we get, you know, from the Old Testament. I think that's why we get examples like David, someone who's in a murderer and an adulterer, and and you know, someone like Abraham who, you know, cheats on his wife to try to fulfill the promise of God through through the Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: flesh. I'm like, God gives us those examples. If for nothing else to show us that none of us could outsend his grace, none of us are beyond his forgiveness. Pj Verdin: Amen. Yeah, and and I mean I think that that's that's ultimately the biggest point for like I said, people who are like, well, look, you know, God I I you know, I I think that, you know, again, Judas regardless, right? We we don't know, but I I think that if Judas would have used his God given free will to hang around, then there was redemption for him. Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Pj Verdin: So that goes to show you, like you said, the goodness of God and and like I mentioned earlier, the the idea of you know, another another person people use a as like a a scapegoater or try to ask you the questions about well if God is so whatever dumb stuff they want to have follow that. i they use Pharaoh, right? So a cool thing that I I I learned about Pharaoh is is that the three times that it mentions that that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. there's three different words there used and They all have different meanings, but basically the it this is not God controlling Pharaoh. This is God allowing Pharaoh to be more of who he's choosing to be. It's it's kind of like in I believe it's Romans, is it, where it says God gives them up to their reprobate mind. Like that's basically what Randy: Yeah. Yep. Pj Verdin: he did with Pharaoh. So he was he didn't force Pharaoh to be like, Nope, you're gonna say no, so I could punish you. That's not what happened there. Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: so you know, I again this is And a lot of this also came from a conversation where a guy told me he was like, well, you know, somebody asked me, Well, i i if if God is so good, why does he allow bad things to happen to people? You know, and and I was like, Man, that's that's a tale as old as time. And I was like, you know, the the the funniest thing is is I I heard a really good explanation to that. And and so I I heard a guy saying that that basically, you know, Christians believe that that God is all good and all powerful. And they're like, well, you know, with all the bad stuff happened, either he's not all good or he's not all powerful. And so, you know, the the rebuttal to that was like, well, you know, if if you're you're asking, you know, why does God allow evil, then you're acknowledging that there's some kind of moral law. And if there's a moral law, Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: then there's a moral law giver, right? That Randy: Right. Right. Pj Verdin: that's what distinguishes good and evil. Otherwise you wouldn't know what day is if if there was not night or or or vice versa. And he was like, So if there's no moral law giver, then there's no moral law. And if there's no moral law, then there's no evil at all. And so if there's no evil at all, what's your question? And I was like, Pfft, that's pretty spot on. Randy: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that is the logical argument for the existence of God. To take it though to what you had said previously, you know, either you know God's not good or he's not all powerful. Then people, you know, get mad at God and they just think he's not a good God because he did and they say, Well, obviously he's got the power, but he must not be good because he allowed things to happen. And those are questions that I think everybody asks at some point in their life. And I think honestly. I think it's the wrong question because usually what people ask is they ask, Well, you know, why do you know God's a good God and He's all powerful, then why do good, you know, bad things happen to good people? And and and and even by answering that question, you're giving validity to it because first of all, there are no good people. So there are no bad things happening to good people Pj Verdin: Right. No such thing. Yeah. Randy: because the Bible says none are good, not even you know, none, not even one. Only one that's Pj Verdin: None, none. Yeah. Randy: good is God. So therefore, like that question is is it's a it's a logical fallacy to begin with. The question we should really be asking is why do any why does anything good happen at all? That's really the question because Pj Verdin: Right. Well Randy: you know my observation and you know my four you know decades of being on this planet, my observation is that life only exists through pain and suffering and nothing could exist without the pain and suffering of other forms of life. Whether you're talking at the smallest levels of bacteria or you're talking about human beings, we only exist because we eat and devour other living things. And there's not a single living thing that we know of that doesn't only exist because it eats and devours and consumes other living things at all levels of the food chain. So what we should really be asking is in a physical world where it seems that pain and suffering is sort of Built in just to have a physical existence, why would there be anything good happening at all? Right? I mean, even God, when He took human form, He wasn't He didn't exist without pain and suffering. I mean, you could argue he said he suffered more pain and suffering than pretty much anyone, if not anyone who has ever lived. So it's like part of our human existence, but yet we still find you know meaning in the suffering, we still find pleasure in the pain, we still find hope in the struggle. And it's really only through God that we find anything positive at all. Pj Verdin: And yeah, exactly. And and what I think is kind of ironic, right? Is how many people wanna blame whatever they got going on on God? Why why would you do this, God? But at the same time, God's looking at you and saying, Hey, I don't blame you for anything. I forgive you of everything. You have nothing but grace and love and mercy from me. And and I think that that might be Randy: Right, right. Pj Verdin: part of the reason why hearing that message of total forgiveness is is so hard. And and and then Also, you know, for somebody who, you know, maybe even in the faith, who would say, why does God let let bad things happen to to quote unquote good people? I would say, have you ever read the story of Joseph? You know what I mean? Here was a man who got thrown into a hole by his own brothers, sold into slavery, falsely accused of a sexual assault, put into prison, and you would say, Dang, look at all these bad things happening to Joseph. But guess what? If Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: those if those situations wouldn't have transpired and he wouldn't have been in the prison and interpreted a dream, he would not have been the second in command of Israel. I mean Egypt, excuse me. So that Randy: Right. Right. Pj Verdin: that that goes to show you like it that God put him where he needed to be, even if it looked like a struggle, it was growing him and grooming him for a the the biggest blessing that you can get. He he was able to to sin, you know, as a Jew. To the second highest in command. And mind you, at this time, these pharaohs thought that they were gods, capital lowercase G's, excuse me, incarnate, like they were gods. And then he he says, Nope. Hey, you see this dude that I pulled out of prison, this little Jewish guy? Yeah, he's he's the man, by the way. You know what I mean? But i i if if Randy: Yep. Yep. Pj Verdin: Joseph would have would have been like, woe is me, why am I, you know, and and and not just faithfully just said, you know what, God has me where he needs me. And and he prospered in all those those positions because he was faithful. And and yeah, God needed him to be in prison so he could interpret the dream that ultimately it was his ticket out and and his ticket to be blessed and and be number two. So so yeah, man, you know, so we we you know, if if like so many people do who who have a a firm understanding of the new covenant and and keeping that the focus focal point in the lens in which we view everything, you know. it I I I still would say that that, you know, old scripture, old testament, old covenant stories like that are are still things that we could look to as just examples of of people, men of God, men and women of God. You know what I mean? And and and not necessarily, you know, the law that was in effect, but but the the feats that that the they accomplished and you know the the trials that they went through as far as just being a part of the human experience, you know what I mean? So but but Randy: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. Pj Verdin: only only that context, you know. Randy: Right. I always get you know, you mentioned Joseph and it made me think right away. I always get in in my social media feed, I always get these clips of Pastor Josh, I forget how to say his last name, Howard and I think. is that is how you say his last name, Howardin. Pj Verdin: Howarton. Yeah. Howarton. Randy: Yeah, it always pops up and it says when when when God wanted to make Joseph a leader, he made him a s first he made him a slave or something like that. And it's like, yeah, it's like that's exactly how God works. And and like I said earlier, it's like in my opinion, this is not God. Creating the stream, this is him directing the stream. It's it's him using the envy and hatred of his brothers, you know, to to work out, you know, miracles later on. It's it's he didn't Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy: force those guys to to to sell him into slavery, you know. He just used what they were already gonna do and directed it. He didn't create the slave trade, he didn't make the people who bought Joseph and sold him to Egypt, you know, Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: slave traders. But That was what they chose to do, and he used it and he directed it all the way up through through him, you know, making it to, you know, Pharaoh and and every step in along the way, it was it was the same thing. It was God just using what people were already gonna do, what they normally would do in their own self-interest, in their own sin, in their own flesh to, you know, make his, you know, miracles happen and and and you know, use them for his own purposes. I mean, that's all it is. I mean, it's Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: like, you know, if you if you If you build a turbine and that creates electricity, you're just using the wind that's already going to blow to power your house. Like you didn't make the wind blow, but you used Pj Verdin: Well but but Randy: it. Pj Verdin: but see, you know, people want the glory without the story, right? It's like you you gotta go Randy: Ha ha. Pj Verdin: through the thing, man. Like, you know, whenever God made David a king, he didn't give him a crown, he gave him a giant. You know what I mean? Then he gave him a Yeah. Like yeah, a hundred Randy: That's that's the other one that comes up all the time, which yeah, yeah. Pj Verdin: but there 'cause there's there's multiple examples of like God God showing Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: you like, hey, this is how I operate. Don't you know, it's like there's a song that I I like That says, how's it go? i i in in the a storm in in a field of doubt, plant a seed of faith and I'll bring the rain. And I'm like, that's Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: that's how that goes, man. In a field of doubt, plant a seed of faith and I'll bring Randy: Yeah. Well Pj Verdin: the rain. And all the rain's gonna do is water it and grow it and cultivate it, and there you go. Randy: Right. Well, and and it's also like, you know, they they say be careful what you wish for, right? It's like you should also be be careful what you pray for. Because if you're gonna pray for patience, you know what you're gonna get. You're gonna get a lot of opportunities where you're gonna need to practice patience, right? And the same Pj Verdin: To be patient. Yep. Yeah. Randy: thing, you want to pray that you you know, you want to pray for a crown, then you might get a giant, you might become a slave before you become a leader, you might find yourself in all sorts of situations because you don't know what the path for what you asked for looks like, right? You want to be you want to be a millionaire. Well, maybe you need to become an entrepreneur first. And to be an entrepreneur first, you might have to get fired first, right? Sound familiar? Pj Verdin: Right, right, right. Randy: Like those kind of things, those logical chain of events like do happen, you know, because a person, you know, praise and and they ask for something or they truly desire some sort of outcome. And there's only, you know, so many roads to get there. And a lot for for a lot of people, those roads are too. Too hard to walk. They don't really want to walk them. They just want the outcome. Like you said a second ago. what did you say? What was the phrase that you said or Pj Verdin: Yep. I I said they want they want the glory without the story. Randy: They want the the glory without the story. That's that's beautiful. That's a that's the best way I've ever heard it said. Pj Verdin: Mm-hmm. Randy: They want the glory without the story. Cause yeah, at the end of the day, you're gonna have some stories. It's it's that's gonna be puttiest stories. Pj Verdin: Right. A and and yeah, and that's that's testimony which i goes to the glory of God, not not you. Like if you just get the thing then you're like, Pfft, yeah, that's you know, the look Randy: That's it. Pj Verdin: yeah, you know what I mean? I I mean going back to David, you know, you look at his his brothers, they're like, I got this because I'm I'm that guy. Everybody tells me I'm that guy and they're like, What you picking David? Why? He's the little runt, he's out there with the sheep. We didn't Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: even we didn't even invite him to they said they said Samuel was coming to the house, we didn't even tell him. He's like, Well, I'm a wait till y'all go get him You know, and it's like bam. So yeah. Randy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But he had but he he's another example because he already had the story. What was his story? He was like, Man, he's like, I know that my God's so big that when lions or bears or whatever attack, like he's gonna protect me and my sheep, and I've taken them out with you know with God's help. He already had the story, and then the story Pj Verdin: Yeah. Yeah. Randy: just kept growing from there and and and God gets all the glory. So at the end of the Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy: day, man, look, I th neither one of us know where where Judas is. Well, we know he's asleep. We know he's not we know where he's not, but we neither one of us know where he's going. But yeah, he's just waiting. Pj Verdin: Yeah. He's waiting with the folks. Yeah, he's waiting with the rest of the folks. Randy: Ne neither one of us know where he's going. We're not gonna be the one to judge him, but we at least we both agree that, you know, our God is big enough to save even a Judas. And you Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Randy: know what? If he is in heaven, I won't be surprised because I think there's gonna be a lot of people that we're gonna see that we will be surprised. and a lot of people who maybe we don't see that that will be surprising. and so, you know, all we could say at the end of the day is, you know, no one knows no one knows the heart except for God and he knows who he's given a new heart to. He knows who he's, you know, indwelt with his spirit, and who he hasn't. And and we won't find that out until judgment day. Pj Verdin: Absolutely. And and and if nothing else, I hope that this is an encouragement to anybody feeling like they're too far gone. Just know that God does love you and He does forgive you and He doesn't see your sin. and and another encouragement, man, get in your Bible and find the cool little things like wait a minute, I've read that story, but I kind of breezed over that. You know what I mean? Those there's so many of those little nuances, you know, each time, like we've s said before, each time you read the Bible, that just kind of get louder, they stick out more, and you're like, wait a minute, let me let me look into these things and and and it's awesome. It's just that all that is is getting to know your father, you know what I mean, more intimately, you know what I mean? And and letting him grow you and mature you and show you things and just in in my opinion makes his voice a little bit louder. So Randy: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, all right, man. Well what do you think? Think that just about does it. Pj Verdin: Yeah, I agree. Randy: All right. Well, hey, I think that's it for this episode of the Walk Talk. Thank you all so much for listening. If you haven't already, please like, subscribe, follow the show, do all that stuff. It really helps out these little channels and podcasts like us. And don't forget, before you go, let us know what you think in the comments down below. God bless. Pj Verdin: God bless.