Latest / Healing Octopus Radio / Wise Traditions Recap: Food, Farming, and Friends, with Katie Kiss

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Wise Traditions Recap: Food, Farming, and Friends, with Katie Kiss · Healing Octopus Radio

• David: Welcome to Healing Octopus Radio. I'm David Barbarisi. On today's episode, I had a conversation with my friend Katie Kiss about the recent Wise Traditions conference. I met Katie a few years ago online through the WayFord platform. We've been in group calls, and since then we've met in person at events and hung out. And we were most recently at the Wise Traditions Conference. this conference is About food, farming, and the healing arts. And it's put on by the Weston A. Price Foundation, which is pretty much the first health group that I got into as I was making lifestyle changes. So in this conversation, we talk about the conference, our experiences there. This is my seventh wise traditions and her first. we talk about the speakers, the food, the vendors, the hanging out with friends. All that stuff, plus a whole lot of tangents on seemingly everything. So there's a lot of that. So please enjoy the conversation. Hi Katie. Good. So Katie Kiss: Hey David, how are you? Glad to hear it. David: yes. How are you? Katie Kiss: Well, coming what is what is it, a week and a half after the Weston A Price Conference? Yeah, we had a good David: Yep. Yeah. Katie Kiss: time there. David: Yeah. so that was what I wanted to talk about was sort of the summary or the review of the conference. I go to a lot of events and it's been kind of a thing to now tell people about them so that they can come later and get excited about it. So yeah, that's what this is about. this is your first one, right? Yep. Katie Kiss: Yeah, it was. In fact I d I just completed the survey that they sent out that they emailed. So David: Nice. Katie Kiss: I got some of the speakers fresh on my mind. I'm sure I'll forget them in the moment, but I gave my feedback and told them how much I enjoyed it except for the last meal. David: I've heard some things about the last meal. I missed it, but yeah. Interesting. Katie Kiss: Yeah. I think Nora and I agreed on the last, yeah. David: Yeah, I I think a handful of others have too, but that was the one that I skipped. yeah, it's interesting. usually well lately with events I've been going to see friends and not going to as many talks. This one I went to more talks. yeah, so that's fascinating. I think I was I wanted less. People maybe? I don't know. but yeah, Katie Kiss: this was my first Wise Traditions conference, but I've been going to conferences pretty much steadily since twenty twenty two, just trying to trying to, you know, find my footing. And actually after all these years of going to speakers, I'm there for the people more than the talks. Absolutely. David: Mm hmm. Yep, definitely. Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: how did you find out about the foundation? Katie Kiss: That's so funny. I met you through David: Ha ha ha. Katie Kiss: the Way Forward community. It is because I met you through the Way Forward community, and I think just simply in conversations in the Way Forward on calls. I know a bunch of chapter leaders. I had never heard of it before. and then I became a member and It was on the East Coast. That always helps with these things being on the East Coast for us. So I just decided David: Yes. Katie Kiss: to come. I mean, I'm not like a massive carnivore. I was a vegetarian for fourteen years, but now I'm kinda straddling that fence of what I should or shouldn't do, right? Yeah. David: Yes. let's get in a diet conversation. We'll really get everybody fired up. yeah. Katie Kiss: Everybody will be sending us hate mail. David: Yes, exactly. yeah, it's funny. I found so when I learned about the foundation back in twenty eighteen or yeah, twenty eighteen or so, I was Eating ramen noodles, lean cuisines, and beer was my diet at the time. So, you know, pretty solid there. Bar food. And so when I changed diets, like I felt so much better. And so I was very convinced that like this is the diet everybody needs to be eating. And so I was very preachy and righteous for a number of years. and then it wasn't, yeah, I guess after the twenty twenty times meeting more people who were doing different things and kind of going, Well, this doesn't fit my existing worldview. So I guess I gotta change my mind and maybe lighten up a little bit on that. but yeah, I I do really like their Dietary principles. So I don't really even call it a diet because they have 11 principles and it includes all kinds of stuff. So it's like the soaking, sprouting, fermenting of grains, nuts, and seeds, the fermented vegetables, the raw dairy, The other ones that I should know by now because I've been involved for a really long time. But yeah, like it's kind of like you can mix and match. And yeah, they're not they're not carnivore either. Katie Kiss: Right. David: so like it's kind of inclusive of all things. so that's what I I really like about it. I think it's a good like foundational baseline. But yeah, Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: otherwise I've seen vegans, vegetarians, fructarians, frugivores, raw meat people, all the things, the whole spectrum, both doing well and not doing well. And so I just kind of throw my hands up and go, I don't know. I still Katie Kiss: Yeah. Basically all we can do. I I do know that when I did the vegetarian thing for all those years, it was because I had attended a Thanksgiving for the Turkeys event at farm sanctuary in Watkins Glen with my friend Carrie and watching the relationship people have with the turkeys. I don't think I've eaten turkey since. And I I d I do struggle with, the shoulds and and all of that, but I I thankfully all those years of being vegetarian I was never righteous about it. I can say that. I there's just no time for that nonsense for me because everyone's so different and I don't even know that it necessarily helped me. It was more it was more a heart led diet than anything physical. David: Mm-hmm. Cool. I generally only meet the angry versions of all the different diet people. So it's good to hear, that there are even handed ones where we're just chill about it. Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: because yeah, that that's that's fun and interesting. Katie Kiss: Right. David: yeah. So so yeah, the conference. you mostly hung out with people. there was there was at least one the way forward person who found me and didn't find you. So we need to get you shirts and stickers and stuff because it's easy for people to find me. Atlas, Katie Kiss: Right. Who who was the way forward one? Atlas? David: yeah. You missed it. Katie Kiss: We had we had been texting and everything and it just didn't work out. Yep. Yep. David: Yeah, yeah. So we'll we'll do that better next time. I don't have to do Katie Kiss: Yeah, for sure. David: anything because people just find me. Katie Kiss: But I have sparkles in my hair. you'd think that would help. David: True. all right. so yeah, the let's see. I enjoyed the food. I missed the last meal. That was fine. I like not having to prepare food. So I'm just like, it's really good it's sourced well, it's mostly prepared well. I don't have to deal with it. And I don't eat three meals a day normally, but I do when I'm there. yeah. So for me, seeing a lot of old friends, well, one thing actually that happened, and I think this is an important lesson, or or could be, one of my friends who I met the first time I went in 2019, and my friend Joy, and we would see each other every year that she was at the conference. and so I was kind of lined up and expecting to see her there. And it turned out that she had passed like a week before. And Katie Kiss: goodness. David: yeah. And we had been in touch for a long time for a couple of years, like very frequently, long phone calls. And Katie Kiss: Yeah. I'm sorry, David. David: thank you. yeah. And we had kind of dropped off in the last few years, not for any reason, but just, you know, it happens. Yep. So, Katie Kiss: Life is lifing. Yeah. David: so yeah, that that was a thing. Katie Kiss: Yeah, really. I wanna get real back to the meals real fast before I forget. You know, only David: yeah. Yeah. Katie Kiss: because you said you did three meals a day. I basically did the two meals a day. I did the lunch and the dinner. The David: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: breakfast you could pay and go to David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: break what was the breakfast? What did it involve? I didn't do one of those. David: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't yeah, actually I didn't do the breakfast this year. So I only did two. Katie Kiss: you didn't. Okay. David: the first bunch of years, also when I had a corporate job, so that changed the math a bit, but I would buy everything, the recordings, every single meal, like everything I possibly could. And then, you know, now I'm a little more frugal on that. In the past, the the breakfast, so it was to support the farm to consumer legal defense fund, which is an organization that when farmers can join, and when the agents and inspectors and the whoever shows up to intimidate them, they can call up this defense team to help them with their legal stuff. So yeah. Katie Kiss: that's nice. Yeah. David: so the paying for the breakfast would donate to that. the breakfast would be like hard boiled eggs, sausage, oatmeal, bone broth, that kind of stuff. bacon, yeah. So along nothing Katie Kiss: do yeah, I don't do breakfast normally, so I was fine not doing it at all. I would have liked to donate David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: to that, I'm sure I still can, but I didn't realize what that was all about. David: Yeah, that's what that is. so yeah, nothing incredibly creative or anything, but yeah, just kind of your standard sort of standard breakfast. Love the car alarm. I can Katie Kiss: goodness you could hear that when it's on it's so funny, when it's on Zoom, you can't Zoom somehow has some audio, David: Yes. Katie Kiss: filtering and nobody can ever hear stuff. So I'm like thinking, good, I'm glad he can't hear that, but apparently David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: he can. David: Yep. yeah, Zoom does some magic. Okay. Yes. Katie Kiss: I live in a war zone. No, I don't. Yeah, yeah, they do. They do. David: Yeah. so yeah, now that you mentioned it, I probably had two meals a day, plus all the snacking in the exhibit hall, or some of the snacking there. Katie Kiss: my goodness. I didn't even know what. Like the first day I was just like raw milk, every other stand, incredible cheeses, meats, fermented stuff, beet something, like oysters, one David: Kavas. Katie Kiss: What was that? What I don't know. David: Kavas, is that the word? Beat Kavas. you said beat, so I was thinking beat cavas. Like Katie Kiss: I did say beet, but I'd never heard of the word kibass and it was it David: okay. Katie Kiss: was a nutrient thing. It was like a liquid David: Okay. Katie Kiss: you do a shot a day and it was made from beets and but there were there were women David: Are they Katie Kiss: what go ahead. David: are they fermented? Katie Kiss: That's a very good question. I got the paperwork. I should I have everything on my bed right now. David: Did it? Okay. So okay. Katie Kiss: I was just like staring at all the swag I came back with and how much is gonna go in the garbage. I have so many papers. David: Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of papers. but yes. So yeah, the the tangent is there's a drink called Beet Kavas, and it's you do beets and I think salt, and you know, you let it all hang out and you get a fermented drink. And, you know, it has all the like probiotic benefits and things. So that's what I thought of. Maybe. Yeah. Yep. Katie Kiss: Maybe that was it. Maybe that was it. It could have been. They had they had women there shucking oysters so you always David: yeah. Katie Kiss: could go and have oysters. And then there was that organ powder for people who don't like David: Yes. Katie Kiss: to eat the organ pluck, I think they're called. what's the David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: Black Lotus Sheila Jee, their way forward David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: members, and I went and saw and spent some time with them. There was a there was a like a two thousand dollar EMF protection blanket and I was I was wow, that's a very, David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: very pricey blanket. But people swear by it, right? David: Yep. Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: Yeah. Lots of stuff in the exhibit halls, lots. David: Yeah. yeah, I was gonna say about Pluck. a few years ago they had a contest where you win a year of it, like 12 pouches, and I won Katie Kiss: Hmm. Yep. David: the contest. And it did last me Katie Kiss: Yeah! David: a year, so I was really impressed because I get heavy-handed on that stuff. Katie Kiss: Nora loves pluck. David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: And you said you used it for a year. I bought at the very last day they had a big ol' sale and I bought three different flavors. And I was gonna text her and say, how the heck do you use this? I mean it could be so simple and I'm overthinking it, but I'm really curious how you used it. David: Hmm. You just snort it. No. put it yeah, yeah. Katie Kiss: There's the David humor I love. David: Put it on whatever you want. I would put it in eggs, like I do scrambled eggs. I I mean you could use it wherever you would use the seasoning, like you got the flavored stuff. So usually I'll put, you know, like I'm very I'm a very simple person. So like, you know, I'll put salt and pepper and pluck in something. And then I I I can fix all the vegetarian meals, so if I have a salad, then I can add animals on top of it. Yeah. Katie Kiss: Right, exactly. He had animals on top of it. Okay, so keeping keeping in the food thread, but a David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: bit of a segue, I I liked the Omni. I mean it was fine. It served the the conference well. Has it been there before? Number one and number two, they have the best in-room cheeseburger I have ever had in my life. David: Ha ha. Katie Kiss: I'm like ready and and I told you I struggle with eating meat, right? It's not my David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: go to. And I am ready to drive to DC, spend a night, and order a cheeseburger just to have it again. It was that good. Yeah. David: Awesome. they have n yeah. they move the conference around, so I don't think they've been at the Omni before. I don't remember when they've been in DC. When I f Katie Kiss: Another note? sorry, go on. I'll tell you something else about it when you're done. David: Okay. when I first learned about them in twenty eighteen, the conference was in Baltimore. Which was funny. Katie Kiss: perfect for you. David: It it would have yeah, it was, except I was not convinced that they like I thought they were crazy at the time. So I didn't go. I was in DC, the conference was in Baltimore, I knew about it. It was coming up like in a few months or whatever. And I was starting to read their stuff, cause this is like At the time, I was in functional medicine and biohacking and that kind of stuff. Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: And so like their views seemed extreme to even that kind of stuff. And I was like, Katie Kiss: Got it. Got it. David: I don't, I don't know. They seem kind of crazy. I don't think, you know, like I was still kind of having that identity crisis. That Owen going the 43-year identity crisis, but that it was flaring up during that time. and so. Katie Kiss: Wow, you thought they were crazy. That's fantastic. my god, I used David: Yes. Katie Kiss: to think all shit all sorts of shit was crazy and now I'm open for all of it. my goodness. David: Yep. Yep. so yeah, I didn't go. I bought the recordings and then I watched like every talk and I was like, Okay, I need to go. So I went in twenty nineteen in Dallas. Yeah. Yeah. Katie Kiss: And wow, and you haven't stopped since. yeah, I'm definitely gonna go. what is it, Cincinnati? David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: Yeah, I'm definitely going to that. my mom might even want to join me for that one. She is a carnivore all day long. David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: it feels very it's nice to hear about these 11 principles. I had no idea about that. David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: None whatsoever. I did no homework on this thing. None. I just showed up. But yeah, I might I but they feel very l carnivore leaning to me, which is fine, which is fine. David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: but I did back to the hotel really fast. I valeted my car because as you know, I drove from Buffalo. I valeted my car and I have not been able to get whatever the hell dripped all over my car from whatever trees. off of my car. My car is in the shop right now getting some detail or or or body work right now and he promised me he would take care of it but that stuff was like would survive a nuclear holocaust. So which isn't real, but whatever, you know what I mean. David: Right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that's funny. Like what? Katie Kiss: Isn't that funny? It was so gross. I'm like, is this bird droppings? Did they just hover over my car and just take crap after crap on my car? But it's I even wrote to them when I filled out the survey and everything, and I said, What did you park my car under? Like this is disgusting. David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: And my silver car shows everything up. Everything. David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: and so th speaking of farmers and Weston A price and everything. I can't remember. Please forgive me because I see you everywhere now. Were you at Elementals with me or not? Okay. David: No, I wasn't. Katie Kiss: Okay. Because Chris Winters, who was on Alex Way Forward podcast and has the Fertile Current, the Electroculture Farm and everything, I was like, I wonder if he'd be a good guy for a West and A Price conference. 'Cause I I just I love him so much. And Elementals David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: was fantastic. I'm definitely going to that again. So yeah. David: Nice. Yeah, I didn't make that one. No, because it was right after Confluence too. yeah. Katie Kiss: Yeah, I know. I was the lunatic who drove home to Buffalo from Texas, dropped my mom off, and then drove all the way back to Missouri for elementals. David: Of course. Yeah. Yeah. I Yeah, I definitely have to recharge in between. I think the only I did do one year, I did Confluence and then I went straight to Wise Traditions. And so it was Texas to Missouri. But I f I think I flew. And I like I stayed with someone. with a yeah, maybe with a confluence friend or the way forward friend. for a week or something. So like I I definitely have time limits and people limits. And so like I don't know Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: how you could do it for, you know, multiple weeks or anything. But I'm working my way up to that. Katie Kiss: Confluence was a lot for me David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: this year. It was so much bigger than last year. and David: Really? Katie Kiss: of course, I thought, yeah, for yeah, it was, you know, it was 750 in 2025, and I think it was over 1200 in 2026. And yeah, David: okay. Yeah. Katie Kiss: so starting with confluence. Then elementals, I have been road tripping to conferences ever since. And as I drove from Buffalo to Seattle in August for another conference all the way across the country. Like what was I thinking? But you know, David: Ha ha ha. Katie Kiss: that's kinda how what that kind of recharges me. David: Nice. Yeah, I remembered rema The I was thinking about how I'm a connector for different resources and things. And I think for you, you're such a connector with people. And so like I was whenever I'm talking to someone and they're, you know, and they're like looking for different people or whatever, like I I want to send them your way. 'cause you're you have all the connections in different communities, probably more so than me. yeah. Katie Kiss: The people connections maybe. The info connections you excel at. I send a David: Thank you. Yeah. Katie Kiss: yeah, you really do. I send a lot of people to you for tech stuff too. and David: Nice, thank you. Katie Kiss: terrain stuff as well. I send terrain people to you, to Bigglesons, to Mari, to undercover Virologist and to Lev. Yeah, you guys are my terrain crew. David: Mm-hmm. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Yep. what was I? I think it was like logistical things. That's why I wanted to throw the whole organizing events onto you. because I don't like doing that stuff. Like the coordinating us all gathering and everything. Katie Kiss: I didn't do a great job. it was weird though, because I should have had an extra night at the Omni, but I because of where I was and it in D C and where you and Sam were, it was David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: an hour to ruse either way. So if I had gotten you guys, it would have been, you know, an entire day's worth of driving. So it wasn't it didn't work out so great. But we had a few really nice times hanging out for sure. But you guys would have loved going to ruse. Yeah. David: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's sort of it's like funny the way it kind of works out is because like everybody's in the hotel or most people are. And so like I try to stick around there and hang out because like just people show up and then you know things just kinda happen. and it's interesting the different hotel layouts for the different conferences, how that what's supportive and not supportive of that. this one felt a little less supportive because of being multiple floors and the exhibit hall was off to the side and all of that. and was an actual parking garage. and you know, whereas other times it was kind of like laid out more flat and like the connections were more Katie Kiss: Seamless. David: yes. Yeah, exactly. So it's interesting how that all plays out. but yeah, otherwise I just try to hang out as long as I can and then wait for people to show up and things to happen. So very passive about it. Katie Kiss: Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. That's I think that's probably the way to be. You're being in flow and you're allowing it to come whatever comes to you, come to you. David: I'll go with that. Yeah. because otherwise I like to plan and then I like to get mad when none of the plans work. Katie Kiss: So funny, David. David: So like yeah, generally I I I'm more of a planner. like I want details and things. Katie Kiss: So of all the conferences we've done this year, what are your fai what's your favorite so far? Unless you're done for the year. I feel like I'm done for the year. Yeah. David: Hmm. I I am. I actually I had a ticket for Exit and Build, which is coming up next week. And then I I sold that off. I was like, no, I'm I can't buy a plane ticket and do the lodging and all that. so Katie Kiss: Well I could talk off I could talk off camera about that. David: Okay. Okay. Yeah. and and my focus is changing because I'm just that's a whole side conversation of where my focus is going, not as much in the freedom and health stuff, more into the getting my financial life stable and so forth. And unfortunately those two things haven't been as supportive of each other as I would have liked. but that's a whole other conversation. Could be interesting too. But Katie Kiss: I know. Yeah. David: anyway, back to the actual question. yeah, I went to Confluence, I went to the new biology experience, I went to and then wise traditions. Is that all I went to? This is a pretty slow year. if it's only been three. yeah, I think Confluence probably. one thing I, I did my first workshop, so that's a milestone. Katie Kiss: Yep. Yep. David: and then I did get to hang out with a lot of the terrain people, that I'm my teachers and my friends. And so there was that. yes, it felt very packed. Katie Kiss: Are you doing a workshop this year? David: I'm working on my applications. I have maybe Katie Kiss: Okay. Okay. David: three or four ideas. thanks. I'll take requests if you Katie Kiss: Lovely. Yeah, definitely. David: got anything. but yeah. One I was thinking either doing the same thing that I have been doing, or not do a repeat of what I did, but you know, more refined. Katie Kiss: What did you do? I didn't attend any workshops. I I went to one talk. I went to Venita and I I barely did the main stage. Yeah. David: Okay. Yeah. rewriting your health stories. And I told my own health experience growing up, all of my challenges and then how I changed and realized all those things are nonsense, and here's why. yeah, so I have a recording so everyone can go watch it. I'll put the link in the thing and whatever. Katie Kiss: Do the thing with the thing. I know, right? Hype this video. the link is in the description, man. David: Whatever the kids say, yeah, yeah. Where where you get your links and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Subscribe and leave a like and click the thumbs up and yeah. Katie Kiss: I adored new biology with with David: yes. Katie Kiss: yeah, you and Sam. I loved it. I thought it David: yeah. Katie Kiss: was fantastic. And the the icing on the cake for me was the Walter Russell Museum tour with you and Sam David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: and a bunch of others and where we got this. And I found it! David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: I found it! Isn't that the best? David: Yep. Yes. Katie Kiss: And this. But just learning about Walter Russell and just how prolific David: Mm. Katie Kiss: he was. That was that was game changer, man. Over my head lots David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: of it, but also I don't really care. I just think he was amazing and his wife was amazing and Margaret was David: Yep. Katie Kiss: amazing. David: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Well yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Katie Kiss: Yeah, but we can get back to wise traditions if you want. I'm I'm going all over the place. David: yeah, so probably Confluence would have been the top. yeah, so wise traditions, yeah, there's thinking about the talks now. So I love the the farmer stuff. so One example, there was Alejandro, Korea. I think I probably totally said that wrong. but he restored thirty thousand acres of land in Mexico from desert, like nothing to pasture by putting animals on the land, didn't plant any seeds, and he gets more rain than his neighbors do. Like He has changed the ecosystem. So, we want to talk about weather manipulation. there you go. so he talked about that. it was awesome. I learned about him from the Biggelson brothers because they, you know, they relate, you know, what happens in the soil, what happens in nature on the land to what happens in our bodies. And so yeah, to be able to restore land like that in I think it was 40 years. so within our lifetimes, you know, once we're actually observing the land and you know, working with it and supporting it, it doesn't take long for it to come back. Katie Kiss: That reminds me of a really scaled down version of Joel Salatin's story and right? he was he was keynote at the fundraiser dinner or the or the banquet dinner or the last night clo closing night, closing. David: The c closing closing keynote, yeah. Katie Kiss: But he was, you know, New Biology as you know was on his farm, but I remember so vividly him speaking about changing the land, which was just basically covered in shale and just David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: like what you say Alejandro had desert and just this rocky terrain. And he turned it into this glorious farm. Just wonderful. David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. He so that's who you saw, you saw him speak at Wise Traditions? David: Yeah. Yep. yeah, Joel's story is very, very similar. And, you know, so I love hearing those things. No. Yeah. Right. Katie Kiss: Yeah. Not not thirty thousand acres. David: yeah. And and I mean it it's just kind of that this is something visible we can observe. It's not like theoretical. It's not, you know, I need an expert to tell me this. We can go. Here's sand, here's grass, these are different. Katie Kiss: Yeah. Yep. David: and yeah, like it's very, it's very direct and in our face. you know, the change. Whereas sometimes within our bodies and you know, within our own stuff, because we're in it, it's very hard to observe those changes. Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: and you know, we do we we can tend to outsource to people who supposed experts who would like see you know whatever things we make up so like I I having the you know more empirical observations and evidence of like here are the changes Katie Kiss: I know you do. David: yeah yes yes yeah Katie Kiss: I know you do. I do not. I just know what I feel. Yeah. David: I I've seen people go weird ways with that, so that's why I have the the skepticism on there. Katie Kiss: Ain't going no weird way, don't you worry about me. Middle way, that's the only way for me, thanks. David: yeah. Yep. so yeah, those kinds of stories, those are great. you know, and you know, it ties in with the Bigglesons stuff. I loved in their talk when they so this is new material for them or a new way that they presented it is they brought in the farming aspect and they go, you know, you have a garden or a farm and you have a problem here. What do you do? The first part, do you spray paint it green? And they had a cartoon of spray painting it green. Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: or do you observe and investigate? And so, like, okay, you observe, what do you observe? And then people, they would ask people like, the water, the soil, the microbes, the animals, the you know, the different like they go went down the list and then they related those things, what you would observe in the soil. to what you would observe in the body and how you would handle both things in the same way. and that we're not different there. yeah. Katie Kiss: really well done. That was very clever as well. It ties into the whole conference really beautifully. I I put David: Yes. Katie Kiss: down that I think that theirs in Danola's, you know, got a shout out to my way forward people, but that I David: True. Katie Kiss: love the Bagelson's presentation. Yeah. David: Mm-hmm. yeah, that that was a new part, so that was great. everything else I've probably heard a few dozen times at point, but I always get new things out of it. you know, I do feel like they they have puzzle pieces that I don't hear from a lot of the other terrain people. or when I do, they learned it from them. Katie Kiss: Right. The holographic blood is amazing. David: As far as I know. So. Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: That's like what? David: I yes, I still forget that it's like magic to most people, especially when they're hearing it for the first time. Cause you know when like you you like live in this stuff and you're just like, yeah, blindfold vision, stick the fork to the wall, like whatever, you know, like we're just kind of youth. Telepathy. it just kind of like, yeah, this is like magic stuff that most people don't get to see. Katie Kiss: Right. David: but yeah, the holographic blood. Adam was showing someone some of the images on his phone and they're like their mind is blown and I'm like, yeah, I forgot that that's what it was like the first time. Yeah, it's Katie Kiss: Very cool. David: it's yeah. Yeah. Katie Kiss: It's like and it reminded me of Veda Austin's work with the water. David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: When you talk to the water or you show the water a picture or whatever, what presents in you know the frozen crystals is undeniable. That felt to me very David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: similar to what they see in the blood. And so, David: Right. Katie Kiss: like I told you, I think I'm gonna sign up for that. doing the blood the David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: I just haven't yet. it it's been years I've been talking David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: about doing it and haven't done it, so we'll see. We'll see. David: Yeah. That's been the that's the pattern I've been seeing. no. Katie Kiss: It's not even the cost. It's just it's it's like anything with me. It's gotta come David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: from an inspiration instead of an a need or you know, David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: the ego, you gotta do this. It's gotta come from like an excitement from doing it. I should have sat there with Adam and just done it, signed up on the spot. Maybe they should do that, right? Like sit at table David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: and say, Here, let me take your credit card right here. David: That's true. That's a good idea. They could always use more business advice. yeah. Katie Kiss: I know. They're they're very lovely about it too. Like they know. They know. David: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. yeah, that's been one thing I've I've been working on is like in these spaces, like I think there's the importance of experience, working with people. where, you know, like I I personally have a lot of information and like there's just been a lot of knowledge that I've gained over the years, but I don't really have the direct experience aside from my own. I haven't really worked with people or anything. And so that's been something for me of like, okay, what how do I, you know, get into space in a sort of honest and trustworthy way. 'cause, you know, there's a lot of people out there who are like, I'm a coach and you know, they just kinda did a weekend thing or a couple hours or so. Yeah. I yeah, Katie Kiss: Everyone's life coach. Everyone's a friggin' life coach. David: exactly. And so yeah, that's with them where I I'm you know telling people about the blood and referring people and then looking to gain experience learning through how they work with people. And so I've been doing that for a little while, but haven't had much success or anything. so Katie Kiss: Have you gone to Mexico? David: no I haven't. Katie Kiss: Yeah, you should go hang out with him for a month or so. David: They do retreats in California now. So that's Katie Kiss: nice. David: the thing. Yeah. Katie Kiss: Yeah, I think I saw that. A place David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: starts with an O. What the heck? They don't do Hi. What do they do? David: I don't know, I can't think of it now. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. But yeah, they have one coming up in a couple of weeks. Katie Kiss: I can't remember. Yeah, I can't think of it either. Sorry, yeah. And more retreats. Retreats, retreats, retreats. David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: That's it, that's I'm sorry, I'm not making fun of them. I'm making fun of the amount of retreats you could do. It's like David: I know. Yes. Katie Kiss: everyone's a life coach and everyone offers a retreat. I'm just like, yeah, I'm retreated out, thanks. David: Yes. Katie Kiss: Thanks. David: Yeah. I'm retreating from retreats. Katie Kiss: I retreated from retreat! David: I don't know. It's funny, we talk about the language pieces, and I think about how funny it is what words get to don't get as much scrutiny. And retreat is one of those. wait, that's not exactly what I want to be doing. Katie Kiss: Right. David: It's like retreating from my life. yeah. That that and surrender. Surrender is another one of like, I get what you're saying, but also it means this other thing too. Katie Kiss: Right, right. let's instead of going to a retreat, let's go to a progress. Let's go to a victory, right? Let's go to a win. I'm David: Yeah. Yes, yeah. Katie Kiss: attending a win. David: Yes. At the end of this the two of us are gonna announce our win that we're gonna have people at. Yeah. Join us. Katie Kiss: David Barbarese and Katie Kiss join us health life coaches on our win in sunny David: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Katie Kiss: Belize or or Mexico or right or somewhere unaffordable. David: Yes. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I I could go on and on. I've been through the business stuff and it's th this has been one of the I think reason or one of the things I've been stepping away from it for is this the everything is everybody has a course. master class is one of my other favorites. Katie Kiss: don't even I must do it because it's a master class. Sign me up because of the word master. David: Yes. Yes. Yes. Within one hour you will have a transformation. I will, yes. I am a master and I will teach you how to be a master. And Yes. Yeah. I know. I know. I understand. I'm just Katie Kiss: goodness gracious. Everyone's just trying to stay alive out here, man. Me too. I'm not saying that to chat school you. I'm just saying David: Right. Katie Kiss: sometimes with the price tags on all this stuff, like I know everyone has to make money and and survive David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: and and all of this stuff, but sometimes I'm like, okay, we're just trying to stay alive. David: Yes. Yep. That's why I'm getting a job. Yeah. Yeah. Katie Kiss: I know you said that. I'm sorry, but I hope it's also aligned and helps with the whatever you need. David: Yep. I'm going for thank you. I'm going for at least neutral. Neutral. but yeah. No, it's not right. Katie Kiss: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And it doesn't have to be forever too, right? you're absolutely madly skilled and you know things are changing fast on the geopolitical landscape. Sorry to say politics. But David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: I mean lots of things are changing and shifting. You know me. I'm I'm way out there with my beliefs, David. We won't. David: Yeah. Yes. yeah. I have yeah, there's plenty more things on the entrepreneurial landscape and the business stuff. But yeah, it's it's just kinda like gotten really laughable and weird to me. So there's that and yeah. I don't know a segue back to the conference now. Katie Kiss: Okay, I could give you one. what did you think David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: of Thomas Massey? David: Yeah, so this is one of my Katie Kiss: Wait David: so Katie Kiss: You did attend that one, right? Yeah, okay, okay. David: I did. Yes, I did. Here's my nuanced view that's probably gonna take an hour. as people know or I've announced before, I'm a voluntarist. So I am not about having rulers and I am not about ruling over other people. So I on principle, I cannot vote for people to rule violently rule over other people. just can't do it. So I'm not a fan of Katie Kiss: Withdrew voter registration altogether. David: Sorry. Katie Kiss: Withdrew my voter registration altogether. I withdrew it. I am no longer registered. Yeah, yeah. I thought you'd get a David: nice. Cool. Katie Kiss: kick out of that. Sorry to interrupt. David: Thanks. Yeah, no problem. Awesome. I just yeah, I didn't do anything with it. So just like whatever. yeah, I haven't gotten far into the like withdrawing from everything. Katie Kiss: to get off the phone lists, I wanted to get off the mail list, I wanted to I didn't want my energy to be in something I completely do not believe in. That's all. That's all it was energetic for me. Yeah. Mostly. Yeah. David: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: Yeah. that's on my to-do list. The So given all of that, Thomas Massey is hilarious. which I don't know, I guess hilarious means in my mind means it's okay if you violently rule over others. no, but He, he is libertarian leaning, or would I guess would call himself a libertarian. he understands, he's been in it. And I do love during the talk, he's like, this is how absurd this is. Like he's literally telling you this is how crazy that all is, the political landscape. Like it's just a bunch of children with who wanna like. rule over other people and whatever, who want power and fame and all that stuff. And they don't care about you. They don't care about any of us. Like all of that. They kind like maybe they did in the beginning, whatever. But like he's literally telling you that in the form of comedy. And so awesome. I love that part. You know, like I think humor is kind of the way to get some of these messages through. at the end, he gave three pieces of advice. One was just talk to your two two senators or one congressperson whenever you like want something. Don't go talking to everybody else. And he told you how to like strategies for how to reach those people. from a pragmatic point of view, I'm cool with that. I don't personally do that, but. If there's an issue you passionately care about and you want a stopgap or a shortcut for making this work for now, awesome. Do that. That's fine. you know, it still does reify the idea that they have power over us and that Katie Kiss: Exactly. David: they are rulers and whatever. So if you go ask people for permission to put certain food in your mouth, you are admitting that somebody else has the power to tell you what food you can put in your mouth. Katie Kiss: Yep. David: so that's principle. from the practical level, I am taking advantage of herd share of a herd share to get raw milk. So, you know, I am benefiting from the people who fought to get that allowed. so and Katie Kiss: For sure, but that's their thing, not our thing. David: Right, right. Katie Kiss: Right. David: I I'm just saying I'm benefiting from their work. So I still do appreciate to some degree Katie Kiss: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm agreeing. Yeah. David: what they do. Yeah. so there's that. So that was one thing he said. Like, okay, if that's that's your jam, then sure. Maybe. the second thing yeah, the second thing was non compliance. All about that. I'm about strategic noncompliance, not just being belligerent and like trying to fight everything, and you know, like because then you know you're giving all your energy to that. so being very yeah, strategic about it. You know, I like I'm not gonna fight everything. I'm gonna some things again, it's the pragmatic thing, and I don't like this, but you know, I have done it, where It makes sense to comply because I don't want to deal with the trouble I'm gonna get, or I need to, get on a plane or whatever. So yes, I have complied in times where I didn't want to necessarily. there's also a lot of programming behind that for me, for everyone of you know, we grew up with this religion of statism. So, you know, people in uniforms still kind of. I still kinda get nervous about that. Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: you know, I don't I don't personally I I'm calling it start trouble, but I, you know, like I've been brought up to avoid conflict. And so that's been a new thing for me in the past bunch of years of you know, stating disagreement or, you know, whatever. Like it's been baby steps. Katie Kiss: Yep. Yep. Yep. David: and so like that's I think that's part of it too. Of like, yeah, a lot of us were not brought up in in non-compliance. So it's Katie Kiss: Well, David: Kinda scary. Katie Kiss: speaking to knowing you these years and the way forward and watching you in the chats, you're really working that skill very well. And I do not mean belligerent. David: Take Katie Kiss: I mean you have a strength in your response when it comes to disagreements. They're informed. They're thoughtful, you make people think. Your comments in some of the chats are game changers for me. I'm like, I didn't think of it like that. So you're doing really well, even though we've all been programmed not to be confrontational and to silence our words, swallow our words and our emotions and our feelings about and our disagreement and our discomfort with confrontation. You do it in a non-confront. Confrontational very funny way, but it does come across, just so David: Thank you. Wow. thanks. Yeah. I I put a lot of effort into it. The angry message and I type it that like there's the first draft that's like the the rage message. And then Katie Kiss: Yep. David: it goes through a whole lot of reviews. usually. And yeah, and I mean in these communities I feel much more comfortable. Katie Kiss: Mm. David: although I do still disagree with a lot of things. but yeah, when I'm in mainstream society. you know that's that's been much more of a challenge. of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you were wearing Katie Kiss: God for all of us, David. holy shit a nightmare. David: if you were wearing a funny uniform and it had a piece of metal and a gun, you know, like I'd be like, whatever you want to do kind of thing. So you know that that's yeah, that's the next level of difficulty. And and like the main you know, the interesting place where that where that shows as like a growth place is in the airports with the TSA. Katie Kiss: Yep. David: because it was only well, I don't know. I didn't really know about the radiation thing of the scanners for a while anyway, but only more recent you know, six years ago or something when I was like, I wanna opt out of the scanner. And that felt like you know, I don't want to draw attention to myself, I don't want to deal with whatever. So that was a thing. And, you know, it's interesting because you would hear people and they're like, it's not a big deal. You know, like nobody like sometimes they'll make you wait or they'll ask you questions or whatever, but like, you know, it's not it's not a huge confrontation. but mentally I'm like, I don't know, I don't want to start trouble. I don't want to blah blah blah. there's a whole lot of stories around it. and then I was doing it in the 2020 times, so I couldn't see anybody's faces, and we were doing that whole thing. and this was in Reagan airport, where those TSA people take their jobs way more seriously than a lot of the other airports. So It was extra intimidating. I would get Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: multiple pat downs. They'd like look all in my hair and like they were very thorough about it. Whereas whenever I do that in other airports, it's like significantly less of a big deal. Yeah. It's like, hey, Katie Kiss: Relaxed. Yeah. David: how's it going? Where are you going? You know, like making small talk and stuff. it's so funny Katie Kiss: Yeah. Yeah. David: like where that difference is. But yeah, so that and then, you know, now we're having the conversations of how people bring raw milk and food and other stuff across, you know, without right, yeah, all that stuff. Katie Kiss: And structured medical water. Yep. Yep. David: and without it getting X-rayed and to just like have those conversations and things. I haven't reached I haven't reached that level yet. I'm also kind of like I don't even want like I don't know. I don't need it that strongly. but yeah trying out those different those things with noncompliance, telling the person I don't want my photo taken, doing all that, getting comfortable there. So yeah, TSA is a great practice point for non-compliance with so-called authority figures. Katie Kiss: It sure is. It sure is. It's why I haven't flown in over three years, probably. It's why David: Wow. Yeah. Katie Kiss: I'll drive to Seattle. I've done it when I've flown since I had my awakening. I absolutely David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: like, yeah, no thank you. I'm not walking through that thing. No thank you. And they make you wait, but I just make David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: give myself such a wide berth of time that I don't give a shit if they try to punitively put me in a corner. I will wait. to not do it. And again, I'm I think I'm similar to you. I just I think if if I were pushed through it, you know, I don't I don't David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: I think I'm stronger than any of that stuff. I think I'm fine. Yeah. David: Yeah, exactly. yes. So that'll be my next my next goal is the the food and the medical water and the medical milk or something. Can bring Katie Kiss: Mm. Right? David: my doctor's note and all that. Katie Kiss: Amanda Vallmer was the first one I saw do that successfully David: huh. Katie Kiss: and and gleefully. David: Yes. Katie Kiss: right. And then just actually this morning I saw Kayla Betts. He was also on the way forward with Alec and he is I think I am Kaylor Betts on Instagram, but he had gone through the airport and at every point he just said no thank you. No thank you. David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: No thank you. And it got through everything without having to do any of the nonsense. I think that's I think it's becoming so much more common that ultimately sure. And yeah, David: Yeah. And we're talking about it. Yeah. Katie Kiss: and it's just becoming it's gonna be the norm. Like because none of David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: that stuff, you know, you know the background of all of it, and you know, most of it's just control and fear. Yeah. David: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think talking about it and seeing people. I think especially if you bring so I had one time where a friend well it was actually coming back from the Wise Traditions conference and they were like, I'm just gonna do the scanner because of whatever. And I was in front of her and then I did the opt-out, and then because the person was there, she kind of piggybacked off of me. It's like, yeah, I'd like to do that too. And then she had a great experience and was friends with the pat down person. And I'm like, I haven't Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: had that one yet. I was like, did you just make friends? Like what? because Katie Kiss: Right. David: I'm still a little bit like I'm just kind of shutting off. Like, I'll be friendly, but I'm not like I'm not trying to have a you know, deep connection with people in the airport. Katie Kiss: No, I know, I got you. David: yeah, but yeah, and you know. People like Amanda and some others, they get joy out of doing that stuff. you know, Massey is like that too, of like where it's just fun for them to kind of I'm gonna say antagonize people or, you know, maybe push against things just to see what they can do. Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: and and that had been something he had done in his career of, you know, he was always bending the rules and, you know, he said he was the most hated man in DC because every group hated him. all of that. So, like that stuff, it's fun and exciting for me to hear that kind of stuff. Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: and it does inspire me to get a little bit more rebellious. but also I'm like, I it it depletes my energy. so yeah, so that was the the second lesson from or the takeaway from the talk that he gave. the third one was get outside the system. And so he's talking about getting out the different ways. like he's off grid, like he built his house and all this stuff is off grid. so I think about those things, you know, using other forms of currency, you know, our different private organizations and different ways of exchanging with each other. I love that kind of stuff. So, like, I Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: don't care as much about the fighting. I just want to go. I'm gonna build my thing over here. I'm gonna talk to farmers, know where my food is coming from. I'm gonna know my health practitioners. I hang out with them. They're my friends. Katie Kiss: Yeah. Yep. David: all of that, you know, when it comes time for kids, you know, I'm just gonna do my own thing and, you know, find teachers and do unschooling and all that stuff. And so I I think my place. is to build the outside the system solutions. And I do think a lot of in kind of like we were saying earlier, a lot of people will play inside the system. And I think a lot of that is needed too. Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: if you can handle it, if it doesn't Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: suck out your soul, then do it. Because you know the people doing that are the the first step for helping everybody else. Katie Kiss: Absolutely. Absolutely. David: Yeah. Just Katie Kiss: Which is funny. You're not going to exit and build. David: That's true. Yeah, I know. yeah. Katie Kiss: Well that's okay. It just seems like it's like you you sound that it's something that really excites you. David: Yes. Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: It just doesn't pay my rent right now. Katie Kiss: Yeah. Got it. Got it. Okay. David: so yeah, that's where I mean, and you know, there is a little bit of guilt of like, I'm going back in the system, I'm getting a corporate job and you know, that kind of stuff. But you know, I'm working through that and it's fine. Katie Kiss: Yeah, it's fine. David: yeah, and I mean that's how that's how we bring more money into our communities. 'Cause right now it feels Katie Kiss: Absolutely, absolutely. David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: My my friend Gareth, who I do my show on YouTube with, he tells me all the time that what I had my mother do with our money transforms the energy from where it came from. Because my father was a big pharma clinical research scientist all of his career. And so we all of our abundance, finances, wealth, whatever you want to call it. Came from the very industry that she and I have nothing to do with anymore. Eighty-two years David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: old, fifty-six years old, no medications, no doctor visits, no preemptive testing, none of their nonsense. But we've taken the money he made and and for for his family, and we've gotten it 100% out of the system, 100% out David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: of where it came from. And in a very functional in the background system. So we're transforming it. But the money did come from that initially. David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: Just like with you with a corporate career, you will get your paycheck or your money or your abundance from it and do fantastic new way of thinking, new earth, you know, practices and what have you with your body and your life that transforms that money right there. Yeah. Yep. David: Mm-hmm. Yes. Katie Kiss: Yep. David: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's I don't know about the only way. I'm kinda gonna say the only way to go right now because it's that has been a thing of I I haven't been Katie Kiss: we're straddling two worlds. So you're straddling David: Right. Katie Kiss: two worlds. What you want and what is so passionate about isn't sustaining you right now. So you gotta dip David: Right. Katie Kiss: your toe into the other world to make that other world come up and blossom for you. Absolutely. Sorry to interrupt, but I just got all excited about telling you that. You're you're using the system David: Yep. Yep. No. Thank you. Yes. Katie Kiss: to break the system, David. There's nothing wrong David: Thank you. Katie Kiss: with what you're doing. David: Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it. I'm gonna Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David: have that. I need that recording as the daily alarm clock thing to reprogram me into really believing. Yeah, exactly. Katie Kiss: I will send you a voice memo. David: yeah. My other thing is so I'm looking for my wife, and so I'm feeling a little less attractive right now if I don't have all the providership you know, settled up. So like that needs to that needs to come together in order for me to attract yeah. Katie Kiss: anybody looking a mate, I know. I I sorry to interrupt again. I I I don't envy anybody looking for their partner, life partner. I I have I have resigned to not having one. I'm okay if I don't, but I I feel for you guys. The dating the dating I don't know landscape has to absolutely suck right now. God bless you. David: Thanks. Yeah. Not gonna save that. Thank you. Not gonna save that part as the affirmation. Katie Kiss: Yeah, yeah. No, you're gonna do it. You're gonna be fine. Yeah. David: Not yeah, not as encouraging. yeah, but in in any case, she's not gonna want a guy who isn't bringing in the the cash. ideally. Katie Kiss: Got you. David: so that's kind of the game plan there. But yeah, anyway, bringing it back to Massey's talk. So yeah, those three things. So I'm like good with two out of three of them, and the the first one I'm I'm okay with. What like if that's Katie Kiss: It's fine, yeah. David: what people want to do. my thing that comes up is then I don't remember what specifically the questions were, but then he gets to the QA and then I feel like people just kind of locked back into the like, how can we vote to do the thing? You know. Yes. Katie Kiss: I know! I felt that too. I'm like, I stood up and left. The he was like, Woo, on point. This is David: Yep. Katie Kiss: great and then everybody, Massy for president. I'm like, did you hear any of this? David: No right. Yeah. Yeah. It really it it just doesn't lock in. It's it's fascinating. That actually happened so a couple years ago. yeah, I would have been in Florida, during the closing ceremony, Tom Cowan went on a whole voluntarism thing, which Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: was awesome. I was cracking up so much because they like never talk about that stuff. Katie Kiss: He's wonderful. David: So and Katie Kiss: Right. David: it was the year be it was yeah, I guess it was like a month before whatever the election was then. And so everybody was all like RFK and this and you know, like all of that. And so Tom gets on the mic and he starts out with something. what's the scenario of like, would it be is it morally okay for you to rob your neighbor or something like that? Like he starts out with that, and I was like cracking up because I knew exactly where he was going. I'm like, yes, please do this one. And so, he expands it out. okay, is it morally okay if you and another neighbor vote to rob your other neighbor? when does it, when does it not become okay? I wish I had that whole thing thought out so that I could say it, but I'll have to practice that. Katie Kiss: Is it recorded somewhere? David: I it might be. I think it is, but I'd have to buy the recordings. I might buy just that one. All right. Katie Kiss: If you find a link, send it to me and I'll share it with you. David: All right. so yeah, he went through the whole thing with voluntarism, like the a lot of the Larkin Rose stuff. And I mean Larkin is where I know most of this from. and people were like offended. And then it gets to the QA and they're, you know, they're like they can't even process it. Like their minds are blown. they like you know, they start asking different questions that like, but do you pay taxes? And he like he was like, I'm not gonna answer that, because of course you know, he does he just doesn't answer questions he doesn't want to answer. But you know, like just the idea of you can't even understand the difference between you know getting robbed by the mafia. versus happily giving them money and believing that's legitimate. yeah, if the mafia shows up and wants to rob me, I'm gonna give them the money, but I'm not gonna be happy about it. And I'm not gonna believe that they're totally entitled to that. And so people can't see that that's the difference. The difference is somehow they've legitimized government even though it's exactly the same as the mafia. yeah, that whole thing. That that stuff, yeah. Katie Kiss: That's wild. Literally they're mafia. Literally they're mafia. Yeah. Yep. David: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Organized crime. They're robbing and killing people and kidnapping people. But we say it's okay because Katie Kiss: All day long. David: we give them a name and some magic rituals and they wear Katie Kiss: Ha ha David: it's literal like yeah, it's literally religion. Like they're wearing funny Katie Kiss: Yep. David: clothes and we like give them some rituals and some sheets of paper and like, but now it's okay to rob and kill people because Everybody else in the neighborhood said it was okay, so now it's morally okay. yeah, and people just can't see it. so anyway, yes, that that bugged me about Massey. Joel does a little bit about that too. Like he kind of has a similar situation, Joel Saladin, where Katie Kiss: Yep. David: he's he is a libertarian. he does you know get politically involved. And I think that has been helpful for people. while also realizing that, like, hey, this isn't the answer. We want less government involvement, or they want less government involvement. I want people to stop believing in government. yeah. Government doesn't Katie Kiss: Period. Yep. Yep. David: exist. We just believe in it hard enough. Yeah. And Katie Kiss: We just ble exactly. Yep. David: you know, the people get guns and badges and they think they're allowed to kill people now. And you know, everybody else agreed with it. but yeah, that yep. Katie Kiss: I know. We did it to ourselves. Yep. David: so that but yeah, that really bugged me about that talk, but you know, that wasn't his fault. He was trying to communicate it Katie Kiss: No. Yep. David: really well. And yeah, and I mean that's there's a little bit of like So the foundation is very into the political activism. And, you know, it is another piece of like, yes, that's great. You know, 47 states can you can get raw milk. and they've had other a lot of other great food laws, medical freedom laws and things. And so it's made it easier for people to some degree. But then I also don't want people to rest on that of like, now it's a law, so they're protecting us from fluoride or whatever. no no no Katie Kiss: Laws David: no, yeah. It can be changed at any moment. you know, and Katie Kiss: Exactly. David: the reason that fluoride or whatever else was allowed was because they had exceptions from government. Like, if you personally tried if you Katie Kiss personally tried to poison some people, you would face consequences. your reputation would be destroyed. You wouldn't make money if that was your business was poisoning people. you know, you might be ostracized and kicked out of the village, like whatever. Katie Kiss: Yep. David: there are consequences, but the reason that big companies get to get away with it is because we believe in government. Katie Kiss: Yeah, absolutely. I mean on a totally separate level, but not really. street signs and street lights and road laws and seatbelt and helmet law, you know, everything to do with transportation. I'm just like these laws are stupid. And David: Ha ha ha. Katie Kiss: and we shouldn't need streetlights. And and I know that sounds crazy. Hold David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: on a minute. Mm I rem I think of the and it might have even been Christoph. What's his name? Like a Jason Christoph. It it David: Jason Cr okay. Katie Kiss: might have been a video that he shared in Planet Mind Control of India, this incredibly trafficked area of India where traffic is coming from every single angle. But because there are no lights, no street signs, everyone just intuitively drives well. And it appears to be chaotic to our organized and law abiding ways, programming rather, David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: but it works. I view street signs and lights and laws as utter control, mind control fuckery, and d separating us from our divinity and our intuition and our power in knowing. So it's not the same thing, but laws in general only exist because we agree to them. There it David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: I I'm pretty sure I'm where you are with all that stuff, but I don't David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: know. Yeah. David: So are you gonna admit that you run all the red lights? This is being recorded. No no yeah. Katie Kiss: Ha Actually I know, right? I can actually feel I can feel the programming when I get to a light or I get to a stop sign David: Yeah. Yeah. Katie Kiss: or or or whatever. I can feel David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: the programming. Yeah. David: Yeah, it's that that one's interesting to me because yeah, I do still I still have hangups on that one. Mainly, so one thing I don't drive, and I don't mean that in the legal way, I mean that in like I actually physically don't drive a car because of my eyesight. Katie Kiss: Sure. David: so I'm opinionated as a pedestrian that people follow something while I'm crossing the street. And not hit me. Katie Kiss: So I think they should just not hit you. I don't think they need to be told David: Yeah. Let's Katie Kiss: there's a person, yield. I don't think David: Right. Katie Kiss: I I think we're programmed and steered and corralled into all of these ways. Now, don't David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: get me wrong, as a pedestrian in Manhattan or Boston, Mass or DC, whatever, Buffalo for crying out loud, I'm with you. David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: Like, dude, right. David: Yeah. Yeah. It's just really like I mean it's really hard for especially with me not driving, it's hard for me to tell when the like safe times to cross are. You know, like because I can't really judge how far away the car is and how fast it's moving, without experience. So there is a little bit of like, yeah, I wanna know when the streets actually clear. so I I don't know. and I did have, yeah, I had a similar conversation at Wise Traditions with some people about this because they're like, no, you know, like in Mexico or elsewhere, like people just go through. And then I'm like, wait, what if everybody's just doing the just go through? And like, no, they see each other and one of them stops. so I don't know, that one's still hard for me to wrap my head around. Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: yeah, so I don't have the full like voluntarism thing, which I don't think anyone has it fully figured out. but yeah. Katie Kiss: Got it. No, uh-uh, no, no, no. I say this in in in practice and theory, but who knows what I'm gonna say in in actual life, right? So David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: back to wise traditions, w did you do the survey and what was your did you have a favorite talk? David: I haven't done the survey yet. I need to, because I wanna get the Bigglesons back. And so we gotta get them invited again. Katie Kiss: Yeah. I totally said that. I said that in my survey. Yep. David: Awesome. Katie Kiss: Yep. David: Yeah. I think they have r yeah, they have r really inspiring talks once they get there. But sometimes it's hard to get them invited to things. Mari as well, like she has really empowering good. Katie Kiss: Yeah, I put her down too. I put Bigglesons, I put you, I put Liev, I put Mari, I put Alex Zek. David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: I can't remember who else I put. 'Cause they ask for who you'd like to see there. David: Yeah. okay. Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: Yeah. that was the thing. They didn't do there wasn't much no virus this time, which I thought was I think was good at this point. Sally did a contagion myth talk, but that was it. Yeah. good. Katie Kiss: you're right. Uh-huh. Yes, she did. And the and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. I left early, but I left everything early. When I I I got David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: twenty minutes into almost everything and said, Okay, good, I'm good, and left. David: Yes. so that was interesting. But yeah, Alec has spoken a few years ago. in Kansas City. It was Katie Kiss: Okay. Mm-hmm. David: actually at the convention center that we got kicked out of at Health Freedom for Humanity a couple years before. Yeah. So it's really Yeah. Katie Kiss: excellent. Isn't that fitting? Look at that take care of itself. David: Yes. so yeah, so he's done it once. I don't think Mari has spoken yet, so we we need to get her Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: more in there. yeah, I haven't written anything, I haven't thought about it a lot. Biggleson's farmers, there was another farmer, Alan Williams, who was supposed to talk, but I don't think he was there and Will Winter spoke instead of him. So I like the direct experience stuff, the farming, the the practical with the food. although I I get less into that too, because I'm just lazy. yeah, there there's some that get out there, either get out there or get very far into the the science, in air quotes. And like I'm at the point where I really need to know the foundations of like all the claims that they're making. And so Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: I can't really It's hard for me to get into the topic if I am already skeptical of the foundation. And so I'm a little bit like for me, I want less of that because I don't want more stories to believe. You know, again, that I can't observe myself or Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: that is, you know, reductionistic or overly simplified or something. I don't think we need all of that. that being said, I think the foundation is great for beginners, people just getting into it. And so I'm trying to personally think of like what are the things that those people need. I don't want them to walk into the fear stuff. So I don't love that. And I don't want the fear stuff either. I don't want to overwhelm or scare them. I do want actionable things for them. Because I try to think of okay, when you first got into this stuff, and a lot of these are parents with kids. They're like, my God, I did everything wrong with my kids, and all these things are killing us, and microplastics Katie Kiss: Uh-huh. David: and EMFs, and that, you know, and it's like, okay, yep. Katie Kiss: I've been there. Yep. David: so like Well, maybe that's the question or that's a question for you of like, how do we provide a more gentle, welcoming introduction? Katie Kiss: Mm. David: Maybe that's a whole episode on its Katie Kiss: Well David: own. Katie Kiss: well, I've I've long just lamented that my awakening was years after my son after I raised my son. the best thing I could say is I breastfed for four years and didn't circumcise him. But he's vaccinated and he's pretty woke and you know, not to put it all on politics, but I would consider myself a recovering liberal. David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: And I don't know about the gentle. I I don't I don't know. David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: I I mean we're not we're not terribly close right now because I'm we just believe so differently about everything. And I'm not pushy or in his face, but it's it's clear what I believe, and I'm not gonna hide what I believe anymore. So we just don't tippy toe around it, we just don't spend time together. That's the case with almost my entire family except my mother. The gentle way. I don't know. I don't I I think the truth is coming and it's not gonna be so gentle and it's gonna be chaotic out there and people are gonna catch up David: Mm. Katie Kiss: just organically and naturally. I don't think there's any other way. And we don't have to do a thing. We don't have to do a thing. David: Interesting. Yeah. Katie Kiss: I have no interest David: True. Katie Kiss: in doing a thing. David: Yeah, me neither. yeah. Yeah, I I yeah, I I don't know. I I guess that's where I you know, when I'm thinking about giving feedback and like what I am more into and less into the you know, is this for me still or is this for you know someone else who hasn't Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. David: been through it yet? 'cause yeah, some you know, some of the topics, you know, like I've I've seen them over and over. So I'm like, you know, this is great for new people, but it's not, you know, it's not new for me. Katie Kiss: Yeah, yeah. It's hard to separate from where you are to where they are and keep David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: an open heart and the capacity to hold all these wildly different perspectives. You know, the truth doesn't give a shit what any single one of us thinks. The truth is the truth. David: Whatever that is. Katie Kiss: Right, but there is an there is an absolute. we just don't know it in this human David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: experience. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy, trippy existence. David: But then no the I I know I run into the circular part of like, wait, but saying that there's an absolute truth, that would be a truth that we would claim to know. Katie Kiss: it's a truth that I claim to believe. It's a truth I absolutely claim to believe. And I'm open to it being wrong. I'm open to all the crazy David: Yes. Katie Kiss: shit I believe being wrong. There's no other way to be. Yeah. yeah. David: Yeah. True. yeah. So yeah, that's probably Katie Kiss: Yeah. I d yeah. I believe in an absolute reality. I and I think it's coming for all of us. David: Hmm. Interesting. Katie Kiss: Yeah. Yeah. David: man, we're gonna have to we're gonna have to have more episodes on these things. Yeah. Katie Kiss: I'm happy to do that. I am happy to do that. David: Yep. so yeah, so that's what I'm thinking about the the conference. or what my my feedback is. but yeah, otherwise I spend a lot of time hanging out with people, staying out late, chatting. Katie Kiss: Mm-hmm. Hmm. I did not stay out late once. I'm such a big baby. David: No. I do it all the time at these things. I just like run myself into the ground and like figure it out later when I get home. Compensate for it. Katie Kiss: wow. I'm I'm up at six AM. There's no way I can stay up late. Like every day. David: Wow. I think I did that too. okay. Katie Kiss: Every day since since my awakening. I c I used to be able to sleep until noon. I used to be able to take naps whenever I needed to. Then twenty twenty one had an awakening overnight. I haven't been able to sleep in since. Very, very interesting. Yeah, exactly. David: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I yeah, I think Sunday night. the farm tour. Sunday night I went to sleep at like 11 o'clock and I had to get up at five for the 6 30 Katie Kiss: Yep. David: bus. And so I did all that. The farm tour is great. So that's the one thing. You want to get out of the convention center. Farm tours the next day. We went to three farms. they were all awesome. We ate at an Amish farm, had Amish ice cream and apple pie and plus lunch. Katie Kiss: Shef. David: saw the animals, lots of cool stuff there. And yeah, it's such a great contrast from being in the convention center every day. Katie Kiss: Wonderful. David: so highly recommend that part every time. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Katie Kiss: Wonderful. Okay, next year. Next year for sure. I'm all over it. David: Do it. so yeah, so that's yeah, what I think about the conference mostly for the friends, the s the food samples, the farm tour, yeah. Katie Kiss: Same. my god, yeah. Yeah. It was good. I'm definitely doing it again. Yeah. David: Awesome. Well see you then. I'll see you sooner, but you know, then too. Yeah. Yep. Katie Kiss: Cool. You will. You absolutely will. That is the truth I know. David: Yes. All right. Katie Kiss: All right. David: seems like a good stopping point before we go forever. Katie Kiss: I know. Very natural closure at an hour and a half. That's brilliant. Yeah. Thank you, David. I'm so happy David: Yeah. Perfect. yes. Katie Kiss: you asked me. David: Thank you, Katie. Yeah. it's perfect. anything for you to promote or to tell people about? People to find you. Katie Kiss: I made the mistake of not putting my handle in my name when it has you put I've never been on Riverside before, right? But everywhere David: Yeah. Katie Kiss: I go I put my handle. So I am on Instagram and YouTube and I have videos galore up there, but it's at K the number eight underscore IS underscore awake. So I have noticed Kate is awake. Instagram and YouTube and I have a lot of fun at both places. And today is ten years to the day that my dad died. So it's yeah and it's I'm feeling feeling myself well up. So I just did a a beautiful post for him with 20 images over the years and yeah it 10 years feels feels like nothing. But David: Mm. Katie Kiss: It's lovely that I'm doing this with you and I decided to wear bright, cheerful colors just for dad. Yeah. Yeah. David: Nice. It's awesome. Katie Kiss: So thank you for asking if I wanted to promote that. Come follow me David: Mm-hmm. Katie Kiss: on YouTube, please. And come hang out on Instagram, please. David: Yes. And if you need people connections, talk to her. Talk to Katie. she's yes. Yeah. Katie Kiss: Yeah. yes, and I work for the way forward now part time. I forgot about that. I work for Alexeck part time, and that's wonderful. And I'll be at Confluence and yeah, I'm always connecting people over there, and you can reach me at community at the wayforward.com. And that's the way FWRD.com. David: Yes. I have an affiliate link somewhere. Katie Kiss: So thank you, David. I know, right? I have it somewhere too. I th I made money when my mom signed up with her own account. That's when I made money. David: Awesome. You've yeah, you you've surpassed me, my success with it then. Katie Kiss: Yeah. David: Yep. So everyone, yeah, go join the way forward. they have Katie Kiss: Thanks. David: business directory, practitioners, farmers, all that fun stuff. I love connecting people with different resources because I do believe that there's more than enough of us to do whatever it is we think we need to be doing. I think a lot of the what is missing is the connections. you know, there I I do think that's part of the the programming or the beliefs of like, there's no one around and they don't whatever. And, you know, within the past bunch of years, I've met tons of people, including Katie, and made all these connections with friends, practitioners, food, all the resources. I know a bunch of stuff. I connect people. I'm a bridge. Katie's a bridge. So please, please, please, for the love of God, don't feel, you know, isolated or like you can't find the things or you can't do the things. Katie Kiss: We're out here. David: yeah, we're out here. it's I feel like it's rewarding to connect people with things. I've been given referrals. I help people. get business. I apparently can't help myself get business, but I've helped others. yeah, it is. Katie Kiss: It's comin' for you, David, don't you worry. David: Thank you. and so yeah, that is a really important piece. And so like I think that's awesome. You're doing the community stuff. And Katie Kiss: Thank you. David: that, you know, you and you've met people in real life too. So like you have a little bit of a you're you're like the Yelp of people, I guess. Where, you know, Katie Kiss: Yeah. Yep. David: I'll say the last thing. someone was looking for a a person connection for like a ride or or something that required some trust. And it's like, you know, I don't really feel comfortable just posting on a forum asking, because some people are crazy, not in the good way. And I was like, go talk to Katie because she's actually met the people and spent time with them. And so she recommends someone. Katie Kiss: Thank you. David: I feel like she's you know, it's it's better than a random stranger, you know, offering their ride or their house or something. so Katie Kiss: Thank you. Yeah. David: yeah. Of course assumes that I trust you in that way. So my own judgment could be poor, but you know, that's what everybody has to figure out on their own. Katie Kiss: I think you're spot on. I trust you equally. David: Thank you. so yes, that's that's my call to action. Katie Kiss: All right. David: Go follow Katie on all the things and watch all her stuff and comment and connect and go do all the subscribe. and subscribe and click the bell and the thumb and the and the leave the comments and leave the good reviews and everything else. All right. Cool. Thanks everyone. Thanks, Katie. Alright. Bye. Katie Kiss: Thank you. Alright. Thank you. Bye. David: Thanks for listening. Please like and subscribe and share and leave reviews and all the stuff for the podcast in your favorite podcast platform. This is Healing Octopus Radio. also see HealingOctopus.com for all my other links. I have a Substack, a Telegram group, an email list. I do terrain consulting and some tech work and have lots of opinions and ideas on all kinds of other things. So please follow along and reach out if you want. And yeah, until then, take care.