Latest / Where We Rise / 32 | "Fight Back" | Reclaiming Her Voice

Transcript

32 | "Fight Back" | Reclaiming Her Voice · Where We Rise

• 0:00
  Khalila McCoy: Hey, I'm Clay McCoy, and this is the show that brings you to conversations that matter.
• 0:07
  Khalila McCoy: It's where we arrive.
• 0:12
  Khalila McCoy: Hey there, so good to have you here with me today.
• 0:16
  Khalila McCoy: Today's conversation is an important and emotional one, the kind that reminds us why sharing our stories matter.
• 0:23
  Khalila McCoy: I am honored to be talking to Esther Collis.
• 0:27
  Khalila McCoy: The first time I connected with Esther was through Facebook Messenger, and we talked a lot before and after this recording session.
• 0:34
  Khalila McCoy: She was truly wonderful.
• 0:36
  Khalila McCoy: Thoughtful, kind, funny.
• 0:38
  Khalila McCoy: We talked about the places she lived and her jobs and her hobbies, and I was pretty impressed.
• 0:43
  Khalila McCoy: In this conversation, Esther shares that her life looks very different from what she once expected.
• 0:49
  Khalila McCoy: Everything changed one evening when she was sexually assaulted by someone she trusted.
• 0:56
  Khalila McCoy: What she shares today is brave and honest, and I'm very grateful that she chose to share it here with us.
• 1:05
  Khalila McCoy: Unfortunately, sexual assault is something people of all backgrounds around the world have suffered and are still navigating.
• 1:12
  Khalila McCoy: We know this happens to children, teens, adults, to men and women alike.
• 1:18
  Khalila McCoy: Today we hear a woman openly share her reality and everything that comes with surviving something so deeply violating.
• 1:27
  Khalila McCoy: As you listen, I encourage you to slow down and really hear her.
• 1:32
  Khalila McCoy: Not just the facts, but the courage behind her words, the pauses, the honesty, the parts she had to fight to reclaim.
• 1:41
  Khalila McCoy: Stories like Esther's deserve more than passive listening.
• 1:45
  Khalila McCoy: They deserve our full attention, our empathy, and our willingness to understand what survivors carry long after the moment has passed.
• 1:58
  Khalila McCoy: Hey Esther, welcome to the show.
• 2:00
  Khalila McCoy: I am looking at the beautiful background that you have behind you for our listeners.
• 2:06
  Khalila McCoy: Tell them where you are.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_04: I um I've just moved to Australia, so I'm currently on the Gold Coast of Australia.
• 2:15
  Khalila McCoy: Nice.
• 2:15
  Khalila McCoy: Now, where did you live before?
• 2:16
  Khalila McCoy: Because I know you had just moved.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_04: I was in New Zealand for 10 years.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_04: I was in Auckland for 10 years, and then prior to that, England.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_04: Oh wow.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_04: Just a little bit moving.
• 2:29
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 2:29
  Khalila McCoy: Where are all the different places you've lived?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_04: I was mainly in Auckland when I was in New Zealand.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I did two winter seasons in Slovakia.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_04: So I spent like seven months of two for two years in Slovakia over the winter, which was amazing.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um so I've kind of I've always been a mover.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_04: I like lived in London for six years, Manchester, in Scotland for eight weeks on a job, and just I like to move.
• 3:00
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 3:01
  Khalila McCoy: Is it always you're moving for a job, or is it just like I need a change of scenery?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I think when I moved to New Zealand, it's because I just wanted to like run away.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_04: I I just wanted to I don't know, you do you know when you just think something's gonna be greener and all your problems will get solved somewhere else.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I just got to the point in the UK where I was not in a good headspace.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: So I was just like, it was the last time I could get a visa for New Zealand, and I just I just ran hoping it would like make everything better, and it did eventually.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, but it it after I faced a lot of um things I did not want to face.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um and this move is a little bit different.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's the first time I've ever moved somewhere, not because I'm running away from something, but because I'm moving towards something new.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I love that.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_04: Feels different.
• 4:06
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 4:07
  Khalila McCoy: How does it feel?
• 4:08
  Khalila McCoy: Tell us what that feeling is like for you.
• 4:10
  Khalila McCoy: I see the big smile on your face when you said that.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_04: It feels it's just like I'm finally kind of back in my own body and making the decisions not out of this fear, but out of more of an excitement.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um it just feels it's like the heaviness is gone.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry, it's just it's a good feeling, and it's a stunning place, and I get to walk to work along the beach every day or walk back along the beach, so I cannot complain.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: It's a very nice way to live.
• 4:47
  Khalila McCoy: I know.
• 4:48
  Khalila McCoy: I'm in Ohio, and Ohio is just like a lot of corn growing, a lot of like farms, and I love the beach, I love the ocean, so I'm very jealous of where you are and that you get to walk along the beach to work.
• 5:04
  Khalila McCoy: I I don't know, I just drive on the highway and see a lot of trees, and not in like beautiful like main country either.
• 5:13
  Khalila McCoy: It's just like random trees and construction.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_04: We have a lot of construction as well.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so that's looking at construction as well.
• 5:22
  Khalila McCoy: Okay, that's just like a global issue.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_04: The orange tone is everywhere.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 5:30
  Khalila McCoy: Well, today we are gonna talk about a very serious topic.
• 5:34
  Khalila McCoy: We're gonna have a conversation about sexual assault.
• 5:37
  Khalila McCoy: And you and I have talked already a little bit um in our messaging, and you know, it just breaks my heart that this is something you've personally experienced.
• 5:45
  Khalila McCoy: And we know that it affects millions of people around the world, unfortunately.
• 5:50
  Khalila McCoy: And when you and I first talked, you kind of said that you wanted to tell your story, you wanted to share it, you want it to have an impact and you know, help people who have a loved one who's gone through it.
• 6:03
  Khalila McCoy: And my first question to you is just how did you get to the point where you felt ready to have this conversation?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it took a long time.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_04: And it kind of happened in stages.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_04: So I never spoke up about it.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_04: No one knew what happened to me.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't very few.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_04: I very rarely told anyone.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: And I just, as my therapist said, my ability to disassociate was my superpower, and I just pushed it all away until the day I just couldn't anymore.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's when I kind of I spent a long time, like five months in therapy, two sessions a week, just trying to kind of get get it all out, and then I had to tell people, and I I write, and I'd written blogs for a while since moving to New Zealand, just to kind of do the whole hey, I've moved and this is life, this is this is what's so amazing about it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_04: And then I kind of I used it for the first time to kind of speak up about something, and I just told the entire story on that blog of what happened to me, the impact it had on me.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: And I always, always expected this huge amount of judgment from people.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I didn't get that.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_04: I actually got a lot of support and I got a lot of a lot of people came forward and said that happened to me.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_04: And came forward and said, I'm actually gonna speak to someone about it now because they'd seen that I'd done that.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_04: And so in it wasn't an outcome I expected, but I kind of got to that point and eventually down the line I pressed charges, but I couldn't, I still couldn't really speak about it.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_04: I could write about it because I had this the protection of a computer, like no one could see me, it wasn't my voice that was being used, so I could do that, and so I ended up doing a a speaking course because I was like, I need to learn how to speak, like how to get this story out.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_04: And I did this speaking course, and I ended up being called onto the like we did it, and then we do it in front of our instructors, and they were like, they tell you how to like change it and do things, right?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I did it in front of one instructor, and she was she then messaged me and was like, Hey, do you want to do it on the main stage?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, Do I want now?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_04: And she's like, Do you want to?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um, will you?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_04: If if Lisa asks you, will you do it on the main stage?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_04: It was over Zoom, but I would be on the big screen.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_04: And there was like, I think 500 people in the area because I think it was in like LA.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_04: So there was like 500 people in there, and then there was about another 300 on Zoom, 400.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like participating in Zoom.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's a big audience, yeah.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_04: And I was they were like, Would you do it?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, sure.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_04: She was like, she may not call you.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, oh great.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_04: And then she's like, so Esther, and I'm like, so there is my face up on this big screen.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_04: I was terrified.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_04: But once I did that, and I got this, so many people messaged me.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: I got this like kind of standing ovation.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_04: People, my friends in the audience were taking pictures of me, and they sent it to me, and I got a lot of good feedback from it.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I realized that speaking about it would help.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_04: It that course helped me be able to stand in a courtroom and do what I needed to do.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_04: It gave me the confidence in my voice to be able to say it.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: It was much, much harder in in the courtroom because there was no support in the courtroom.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_04: That was just horrific.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: In some ways, that the experience of being in the courtroom was worse than the assault.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_04: Because it was like this prolonged attack on you.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: Me.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_04: And it was on everything, it was on my choices, it was on my character, they like anything they could attack me on to make me be the one who was in the wrong.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_04: They called me a liar on the stand.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_04: And that's was my worst nightmare realized when I was called a liar on the stand.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_04: Because you don't speak up because you think you won't be believed.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_04: And then for it to for that to be said in a court of law in the name of justice is just it kinda it took me a moment.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_04: Like that, that I walked out of that courtroom that day.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_04: And I was I just was completely zoned out.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_04: My friends were there, they looked at me and they're like, You okay?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_04: Because I wouldn't have them in the courtroom.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, I can't do it if you're there.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_04: And so they waited for me.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I was just they just basically got me and moved me and just kept moving me.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_04: They were like, Come on, we're gonna go this way.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_04: And they basically took me, sat me down in this bar, gave me a glass of wine, well I just like just let's breathe.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_04: Just it.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_04: Take a moment, we're here, it's okay.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_04: And it took me, it took me a moment to just like come back and just to be able to like speak to them, and then they I had to go in again the next day to do it all over again, and it's it's the most in these cases, it's like as the victim I do hate that word, but as as the person who was sexually assaulted, you are the one that's on trail.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_04: Because I know they asked him the next day how he felt when he found out that I'd been that I'd pressed charges.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't remember them ever asking me how I felt.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_04: They just asked me if I misremembered.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, why does he get to express the impact of pressing charges and him realising that but I don't get to express the impact of what his actions did to me.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it's just this really messed up system, and this was back in London.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_04: But the reality is you can take my court case and put it in any system in the world.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, unfortunately, you're right.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_04: It's the same treatment.
• 13:30
  Khalila McCoy: Well, that's why they say most people don't report it, is because they are asked all these questions about what their choices were and why they allowed it to happen to them.
• 13:41
  Khalila McCoy: Which is ridiculous.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's it's just insanity, and it's just they just go about your character, and they were like, Well, you went back to being friends with him, so obviously it didn't happen.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_04: And it's they use rape myths as a way to defend, right?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_04: And and it's like you can't every so many victims of sexual assault go back to being friends or being seeing their perpetrator because they can't admit to it, it's easier to you just want to put it out of your mind.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_04: You want to just put it anywhere that makes it not real.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_04: Because especially when it's someone that you're friends with or someone you're close with, you there's still that part of you that just cannot believe it actually happened.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 14:34
  Khalila McCoy: That that's you would never assume they would cross that line or break that trust.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: You would you just thought you were safe.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_04: And then you weren't.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_04: And it's that's a really hard thing to go through.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_04: And I always talk, I was I learned young when I was 13 that don't fight back because that can make it so much worse.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_04: And then because I didn't scream, I didn't shout, I cannot remember if I kicked him out of my house, like that whole weekend.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_04: Because uh Yeah, I don't remember.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if I rem I remember just looking over my shoulder and going, What are you doing?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_04: And him stopping.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_04: And I was just like, just go back to sleep.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_04: And then I put my head back on the pillow, and I'm pretty sure I just my body was just like, We're out.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_04: It was just like no, and I just do not remember the next morning.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if he'd already left, or if I asked him to leave, I just no recollection of that.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I've never like 15 years later, I still don't know.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_04: I might never know.
• 15:58
  Khalila McCoy: Did you ever confront him about that night?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_04: I messaged him the next day.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_04: I remember being in my bed still just kind of in shock, and I messaged and I was like, Why did you do that?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's like well, I thought that was what you wanted.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: But I was asleep.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_04: Why did you think I wanted that?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like as soon as he was like, I'm sorry, but I thought that was what you wanted, it's like it then puts it all back on you.
• 16:32
  Khalila McCoy: And so then now you're probably questioning yourself.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_04: Everything.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, well, why would he think that?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_04: What did I do to make it?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_04: What did I do?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_04: What did I say?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_04: What did I say?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: What didn't I say?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_04: What didn't I do?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_04: What it was it's this this game and it's this this shame that just plays on you completely and it just it sits on you and it like it wrapped itself completely around.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_04: And it was ten years later when I spoke up and I I did the blog, my stepmom actually was like, This explains so much.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, Why?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_04: She's like, You have this impenetrable armor that nobody can get through.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: Because I was so good at disassociating from the pain of the event.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_04: I think could I still can if I really want, I can completely disassociate from any emotion.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_04: But the problem is when you do that for so long, you disassociate from all emotions.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_04: Like you just don't you you can't decide you just don't want to feel the pain and be able to feel the joy.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_04: You just I you just become numb to everything.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like you're always waiting for this shoe to drop, this okay, I'm happy, but it's all gonna go wrong.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_04: And it's just this, you can't be in the moment because you've just pulled yourself out of so many moments.
• 18:03
  Khalila McCoy: And it's Did you did you consciously understand that about yourself that you were guarded, or did you not really know that you had started to separate yourself in all situations?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_04: And it was after the fact.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_04: It was after the the therapy and the conversations with people after I spoke up that I kind of could see what I'd done.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_04: Cause in my head, I was like, no, I'm so happy.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_04: But then I would also find myself sometimes, I'd be in these rooms with all my friends, and I I remember this one instance, I was surrounded by my friends, and it's just this I burst out laughing, and there was a part of me was just like I didn't recognize the person who was laughing.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_04: I was just like it just I I felt so alone, but I'm there laughing, and it was like I'd been split.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_04: And there was this person that everyone saw, and this person behind who was just like, Who the hell is she?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know that person, and it was just this not fakeness, but it was just like the happiness could come so far, but it couldn't it couldn't go deep.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_04: That was too god deep to let it feel.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_04: If that makes any sense.
• 19:31
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah, it's like you're in this just survival mode and you're just kind of walking through life and things kind of bounce off of you as you move through.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I was I was in survival for a long time.
• 19:45
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 19:46
  Khalila McCoy: How old were you when this happened?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: I was 28.
• 19:51
  Khalila McCoy: Okay.
• 19:52
  Khalila McCoy: So then when you said it took time for you to what did you say?
• 19:58
  Khalila McCoy: What was it five months that you had mentioned before you even spoke about it to someone?
• 20:05
  Khalila McCoy: Well, it was 10 years.
• 20:06
  Khalila McCoy: 10 years, okay.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_04: It was after five years of therapy.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: Five months of therapy after that.
• 20:12
  Khalila McCoy: Yes, okay.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_04: Like that I did mention it a f I think a few times it came up and I was just like, oh, this happened.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_04: And it was just like it was nothing.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_04: I would not let myself feel anything.
• 20:26
  Khalila McCoy: I was like, Who did you tell that to?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh one of my friends back home.
• 20:33
  Khalila McCoy: How did they react?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_04: She was just like, Oh, that happened to me too.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_04: And then we both just went, next subject, then.
• 20:44
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 20:44
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 20:45
  Khalila McCoy: Oh.
• 20:47
  Khalila McCoy: When you told her that and you heard it happen to her too, was there a moment where you were like, let's talk about this.
• 20:56
  Khalila McCoy: Like, I'm not alone, we need to do something, or do you even have that connection?
• 21:01
  Khalila McCoy: You're still just like uh no.
• 21:03
  Khalila McCoy: I was like, it's just like, no, we're gonna have done my fine.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: Neither of us was fine about it.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_04: But it's so much easier to just be like, I'm fine.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: Than it is to actually face that part of yourself and admit that you're not fine, and also to admit that yes, the event happened.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_04: It breaks you in a way that you can never go back to.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_04: But then I had to learn to take some responsibility as well because that event happened, but I also carried a lot.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_04: I allowed that event to take all of my power, I allowed that event to impact so much of my life.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_04: And so I had to learn to take acceptance that for my my part in how I moved forward afterwards.
• 22:14
  Khalila McCoy: So what did that look like for you, that moving forward?
• 22:19
  Khalila McCoy: Well, a lot of therapy.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of um it was more after the court case actually than anything else.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_04: Because during the the lead up to the court case, I was still it was still this, it was four years basically from pressing charges to the court case, to the day in court.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_04: So it was a lot of it was always there in the background, always waiting, always blooming, and it was a big part, and I'd made I'd made what happened to me part of my identity, and I was very much I was speaking up and I was talking about what was going on and I was saying things and I was doing that speaking course and people wanted me to continue to do speaking and things because of the impact, and but I I'd made it part of who I was, and just after the court case, every conversation was coming back to it.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_04: It it became this it was part of it was that I have to do this, I have to do this because if I do this, it means and I kept saying ever uh I'm grateful that this happened because now it's given me the ability to do this.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I was called out on it by my ex.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_04: And he was just like, You're grateful that you were assaulted, and I was like, Yeah, because but it was my way of keep protecting myself and still kind of it was like if I'm grateful for it, because you see so many of these influences and people, and they're like, be grateful for everything that's ever happened to you because that's why you're here now.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I kept saying it, but it it never quite sat, but I wanted to believe it really badly.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_04: I needed to believe it to like keep putting one step in front of another after the court case and the verdict, and I just I needed to just believe that.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_04: And then eventually it just all crumbled, and I was just I had to accept that I'm never gonna be grateful for that event.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_04: Not once, not ever.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_04: Neither do I need to be.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm not where I am now because of that event.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_04: I'm where I am now because I've found the ability to own my choices, to own what I did, and to accept that yes, I hurt a lot of people because I was angry and I was hiding all my emotions.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um people tried to love me, they would quickly shoved out the door because I wasn't worthy of being loved.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_04: It was this deep, deep belief I had.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_04: So I would push anyone away that got close because it's this fundamental belief when something happens to you like that, that it doesn't happen to people worthy of being in my mind.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_04: It was like this wouldn't happen.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_04: If I was worthy of being loved, this wouldn't have happened to me.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_04: I was worthy of good things, this wouldn't have happened to me.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_04: So it was obviously something wrong with me.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_04: And so I had to get to the place where I realized that it was nothing to do with me.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_04: It was nothing to do with me.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_04: He made his choice, he put his wants and his needs above my concerns.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_04: It's as simple as that.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's that's all there is to it.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_04: But I made it mean so much about me.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I had to unlearn.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_04: Not unlearn, but I had to go back, face certain parts of myself, and realize that none of that was true.
• 26:46
  Khalila McCoy: What would you say to somebody since you've been through that, someone who might be listening to this and say, I hear you, but I still feel it was me.
• 26:55
  Khalila McCoy: What were some of the things that either you told yourself or that you walked through to help you get to the other side?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_04: One thing was I did I was doing this coaching course, and there was this one exercise, and this one exercise was just everything we do is because of choice.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_04: So I can't remember it quite clearly, but there was something in it that just clicked in my brain, and it was where basically you write things down, it's like I'm not exercising because, and it's part of it is like, and I was like, I'm not letting this go because I don't know who I am without it, right?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_04: And it was just this eck thing, and I had to learn, and I'd spent so long I'd realized in that moment that I'd spent 15 years wanting to get back to the person I was prior to that night.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_04: Right only I had to grieve for the person I was before that night because I was never getting better.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like something fundamental changes in you when this happens, right?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_04: And you can't get back to the person you were, you have to I had to learn how to grieve for myself for that version of me, and to kind of love her and let her go and figure out who I wanted to be.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_04: But I had to, I was doing loads of podcasts, but I had to stop.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, why am I doing it?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_04: Am I doing this because I feel I should do it?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_04: Or I was doing it to escape being in my body.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_04: So I also, for me, the ocean has been one of my biggest healers.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_04: It's surfing or sailing, it's getting in, and it just they pull you into your body.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_04: You do not have time to be letting your mind go where it wants.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_04: Because if you're not playing with Lincoln, that wave is going to crack you outside.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_04: So you kind of for me, it was finding the things that I love to do for me, and then figuring if I still wanted to speak out, if I still wanted to do this, and not because I felt like I should, but because I felt like I could.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas I think when I first started talking about it, it was more of an escape to prove to myself that I could move past this.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_04: And whereas now I think now that I physically am more in my body, and I'm like, I'm okay.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_04: I I can feel sometimes I can still feel if I go back to the event and think about it, I can feel it in my body, and it's heavy and it sits there, and it's like these last bits of emotions that have not yet worked themselves through.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, they may always be there.
• 30:07
  unknown: Right.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_04: And that's okay.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: I'm never gonna look back at that event and smile and go, yay, this happened.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_04: So it's okay if I go back to that event and I feel it, but I've learned that rather than pushing that away, I can sit with it, and then I I almost have to tell myself, it's like I will sit there and I'm like, you are safe.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_04: Everything is okay.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_04: We're not in that moment anymore.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_04: We're safe.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_04: And then my body is like, oh, okay.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_04: And then I can kind of carry on.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_04: But before I can, I I've been guilty of sitting in it and just dwelling and not being able to pull myself out, and it taking a long time to like like bordering depression and uh very much like you need to take medication, and I'm very much like, no, thank you.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um so I've kind of learned to listen more to my body and to like just accept sometimes the um when I talk about it, if I go into the event and the detail of either the night or a court case, it is going to have an effect.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_04: My body's gonna react, my mind's gonna react, and that's okay.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_04: But I kind of I think for anyone who is still blaming themselves, you have to learn to just love yourself as you are right now.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's the only thing you can do.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_04: And the hardest thing to do when you really don't like yourself is to love yourself, right?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_04: But it's taking that one step, find that one thing that brings you joy.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_04: For me, it's the ocean, for other people, it's hiking trees.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_04: But it's for me, it's getting out in nature, it's just doing something that will pull you into your body, whatever that is, for any person.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_04: Some people it could be jigsawing, it could be but anything that just makes you present, and all you have to do is one moment at a time.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_04: Don't worry about next week, next month, next year, just one day at a time.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_04: Just one tiny moment at a time, and it just pulls you back into the present, and meditation has been a big help.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_04: Because my mind will just go.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_04: So I do need to sometimes just yeah, bring it back.
• 32:46
  Khalila McCoy: What can the people who are watching someone go through this, right?
• 32:52
  Khalila McCoy: What could a role be for that person?
• 32:54
  Khalila McCoy: Because, like you talked about, you were kind of inside yourself, you wouldn't allow yourself to experience joy and happiness.
• 33:00
  Khalila McCoy: So I'm sure there were some people who you know were trying to make you happy, but you just weren't in the space for that.
• 33:08
  Khalila McCoy: What would you say to those people?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_04: It's a it's a hard thing to do because on the outside, nobody would have known that I wasn't happy.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: If that makes sense.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_04: On the inside, I was breaking.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_04: On the outside, nobody really had a clue.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_04: There may have been moments they were like, what?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_04: But nobody knew what was happening inside.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_04: But I would say if someone has spoken up, you don't don't try and fix them.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_04: They don't need to be fixed.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_04: The only thing, the only thing I ever needed was for someone to just hold me and tell me it was gonna be okay.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like they will push you away, they will not believe you, they will be angry at you, they will displace all kinds of emotional way that are not intended for you, and it doesn't make it okay.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_04: I hurt a lot of people because I couldn't vocalize how I was feeling during the lead up to the trial and everything else.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_04: I just didn't know how to I I didn't know how to let myself be angry.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_04: And I just kind of I didn't I didn't want to be angry.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_04: And but it it ended up it ends up coming out in other other ways at other people.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_04: And I did hurt a lot of people and what is that saying, hurt people, hurt other people, and right there are times and it's like yes, they are gonna say things and they are gonna do things that you probably wanna throttle them for and scream and shout at them and tell them they're being our souls because they will be being our souls.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_04: But they're in so much pain that they may not have the ability to express.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_04: So it's just if you can just be there to listen, to slow them and don't become their punching bag because that is not okay.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_04: Do not become their emotional punching bag, but help them find someone to talk to.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_04: Help them find a therapist to talk to so they have somewhere to go to vent all of that.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_04: And then you can be the person and just ask what they want.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_04: Don't ask, don't assume you know what they want.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_04: Ask what they want.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_04: They may want to talk about it, they may not want to talk about it, they may want you to distract them and make them laugh, they may want to watch a rom-com movie and cry their eyes out.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_04: It could be anything, but it's just they may just want space just to be on their own, and it doesn't mean anything about anything else.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_04: But the only way you're gonna know what someone needs is to ask.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_04: And if they say they don't know, figure it out together.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_04: Don't be don't allow yourself to be the emotional punching bag.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_04: Because as much pain as they're in, and I speak for my own, it doesn't give anyone the right to take it out on other people.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's they need to find a way to work through that.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_04: And if that's on their own and you're just there for moral support, great.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_04: If that's with you, great.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's but ask them.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_04: It's the only way you're ever gonna know.
• 36:44
  Khalila McCoy: You shared that you said that you hurt a lot of people since you've kind of been able to heal.
• 36:52
  Khalila McCoy: Were you able to go back and talk to those people and rekindle some of that relationship or you know, take back as much as you can, things that you might have said?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I've I've amended, not amended, but like I've fixed some relationships to a point whether we ever get back to where we were is a different is a different question.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_04: It's not for me to answer it.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_04: I've kind of I made my apologies and I wore my side of things, and but then I've also I'm not the same person that I was.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes that does mean you are gonna end up losing people as well.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_04: And it could be because of the way I was and how I've hurt people, and they may just not be able to forgive me, and I have to accept that that's a consequence of my inability to express how I was feeling without this like latent anger coming up and like going to them because you feel safe to be angry at someone you love.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, you do don't always feel safe to be angry at an event or something else, and it's strange.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_04: You can really love someone, and then you can be pissed off about something else, not tell the person you're pissed off with, but you will take it out on the person you love because you feel like it's safe to be angry with them, and it's just figuring out the balance where you're like, I'm angry, but not at you, but this is how I'm feeling.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it's but we all do it, we all get put our anger, we just displace our anger onto someone else.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, you're right.
• 38:43
  Khalila McCoy: That we love, it's not healthy, good, but we ask for forgiveness and hope that they will.
• 38:54
  Khalila McCoy: All right, I forget.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: I apologize.
• 39:03
  Khalila McCoy: You were holding a lot inside this, like the trauma, the experience, and even like coming out of that and having to, like you said, grieve who you were, think about what you want to do moving forward.
• 39:18
  Khalila McCoy: Like that's a lot.
• 39:20
  Khalila McCoy: Um, I just feel like the physical and the emotional wear on yourself.
• 39:26
  Khalila McCoy: So, what do you do to kind of keep yourself moving forward when you think back on that and how heavy that is?
• 39:35
  Khalila McCoy: Is there something now that you just think of that I know you talked about like the ocean bringing you joy and things like that?
• 39:41
  Khalila McCoy: Is that a lot of the suggestions and stuff you get through therapy that helped you through that, or is some of it you were able to kind of just realize on your own?
• 39:53
  Khalila McCoy: I think therapy did help.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but there was a lot you kind of have to realize as well on your own.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_04: And I just had to I had to learn how to kind of get back into my body because I knew that I was I I'm someone who goes into my mind a lot, and I can and I realized when I started to kind of almost listen to the thoughts I was having, I was catastrophizing everything.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_04: Everything was worst-case scenario, right?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: And I was in desperate need of validation, is that I was only worthy if someone else decided I was worthy, and so there was a lot that meditation helped me, and a lot of just journaling has been a big big help.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_04: I've always written, so I've always journaled, and I went through a phase where I stopped journaling and I could almost feel that I was not was not doing so great.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, because it was all just sitting inside.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_04: So I then I've got back into journaling, and it's amazing when you just keep writing the things that come up and you're like that comes out, yeah.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, I see.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_04: And then you you kind of also I started realizing like that things link back to like way before the event, and everything is correlated, and if you look for a certain outcome, you're always gonna find it.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm, okay.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_04: So if you keep expecting the worst to happen, then the worst is gonna happen because it's what you're looking for, and it's what your behavior then skews it towards.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_04: And so then the worst is gonna end up happening, and it's the same if you if you just believe that you know what, it's all gonna work out.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_04: It kind of does, it it will work out.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_04: You don't know how, it may not work out exactly how you want it to work out, but it will always work out.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I've had to teach myself to kind of catch those negative thoughts and be like, okay, accept them and just kind of be like, okay, that's not really true anymore, so that's fine.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_04: And just kind of almost change the narrative in my own mind and be like, okay, it's not the case.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_04: And when I moved to Australia, like I wanted to do it, I really wanted to move.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_04: But I kept being like, oh no, I can't move until I've got this amount of money and I can't move.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um, what if I move and I can't get a job?
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_04: Dah da.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, in the end, I don't know what something hit me, and it was just like, just do it.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_04: You will always, always find an excuse not to do something.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_04: So I was like, you know what?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just gonna do it.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_04: So I handed in, I spoke to my landlord and was like, look, I'm gonna move out in a month's time.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna just gonna go for it and see what happens.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just gonna fly over and that'll be it.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_04: And about as soon as I did that and I just let go and I was like, I have no idea what's gonna happen, but I'm gonna, I just I know I'm gonna be okay.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_04: I've always been okay.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_04: And as soon as I kind of did that, all of a sudden I got I what used to work in film and I got a load of work in film in New Zealand.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_04: And it was like up until the dates I was planning to leave, so I was like, oh great.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_04: So I ended up getting a load of money, which was helpful for the move.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_04: And then a job came up, and I was like, oh, that looks I I'd enjoy that job.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_04: And it was on the Gold Coast.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_04: So I applied for the job.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_04: 12 days after applying, they offered me the job.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_04: A week later, I was leaving New Zealand.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: Flying to the Gold Coast.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I had work to come to, I had a house to come to.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_04: And it all just worked out as soon as I just kind of went, you know what, stop looking for the worse and what could go wrong and instead start thinking about what could go right.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_04: And then it all just fell into place.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, okay.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_04: And so it's it's a lot about mind frame.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_04: And just it's learning how to provide safety for yourself.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_04: Because no one else can give it you.
• 44:41
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 44:43
  Khalila McCoy: So thinking about the mind frame, let's say there's someone listening and they're like, okay, I do want to come forward, I do want to speak out.
• 44:50
  Khalila McCoy: Um, but you know, I'm nervous about how people will react to me.
• 44:53
  Khalila McCoy: I'm nervous of having a similar experience that you've had in core.
• 44:57
  Khalila McCoy: What can what type of mind frame can they kind of go into or what can they say to themselves during that time so they don't start to fall back and say, never mind, I'm just gonna keep this to myself.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's a hard one because I did not have a great mind frame through all of that.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but and I won't lie, it's horrific, it's horrible, it is not pleasant.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_04: The admitting it is not pleasant, the core is on another level altogether.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_04: That core experience is something else.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_04: And it's not easy.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_04: And you're gonna hate moments and you're gonna wish you hadn't done it.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_04: You're gonna wanna pull out and say, never mind, I don't want to do this, it's not worth it.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_04: But when I left that courtroom, the one thing that none of that could take away from me is that shame that I'd been holding on to for so long that I left it in the courtroom.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_04: I left it with him because it was never my shame to carry.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_04: I did not do anything wrong in that moment.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_04: It was never my shame.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_04: He's the one that should have been ashamed of his actions.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_04: So in that moment in the courtroom, I left it.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I just I walked out and I left that there because it will never be mine to pick up again.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I would go through it all again for that one moment.
• 46:42
  Khalila McCoy: Yes.
• 46:45
  Khalila McCoy: Thinking about like our system, like I earlier you said how they were treating you and being, you know, making you seem like you were the one who did something wrong, and you said, all in the name of justice.
• 46:58
  Khalila McCoy: I thought that was a really interesting phrase that you said.
• 47:02
  Khalila McCoy: How do you feel like our systems should change and should treat?
• 47:08
  Khalila McCoy: And I know you said you don't like the word victims, the person who has been assaulted.
• 47:13
  Khalila McCoy: How should that play out?
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_04: Well, for one, I don't think it should be.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_04: I don't necessarily agree that these should be done by a jury.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_04: Because sexual assault is so especially historical, it's so nuanced.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_04: And it's I know that the courts went through with the jury all of these rape myths.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_04: But then they used rape myths in his defense.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like, why are you telling the jury about them and then using them in the defense?
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_04: It's like it just the two don't go together.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, we the reality is our society is we've been brought up from a very, very young age to believe that it is the woman's fault or the victim's fault.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_04: I will use that word in this case, but we do have been brought up to believe it is their fault.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_04: You mean it's when you think about high schools, girls are not allowed to wear strappy tops.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_04: Because it shows too much body and it's distracting for the boys.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_04: So in that moment, boys are taught that they're not responsible for their what they're feeling and thinking, but the girls are responsible for how the boys react to them.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_04: And so you're taught from a very young age that it's not the men's fault, it's not the boys' fault, it's the girls' because it's what she's wearing.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_04: Because she's acting in a certain way.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_04: We've all said those words.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_04: She's asking for it.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_04: No one is ever asking for it.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_04: I can walk down the street naked.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_04: Doesn't mean I'm asking for it.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean right, yeah.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'll get it rested for indecent exposure, but it doesn't mean I'm asking anyone to lay a finger on me.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_04: What I choose to wear is not consent for someone else's actions.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_04: And we've all said that we've been in bars where you're out and there's a group of guys, and then they have this one friend who is a creep, says awful things, and then it's like, oh, he doesn't mean anything by it, it's just Joe or whatever his name is.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like they just make excuses for his behavior rather than going Joe, that's not okay.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_04: They'll make excuses for the behavior.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_04: So for me in the courtroom to have a society where it's built on it's the victim's fault.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_04: You even hear about child cases and they're like, well, they blame the child.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's yeah, it's horrible.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's like in a society where the peers have been where we are all taught it's the victim's fault, you can't then have twelve members of that same society in there making the choice because all these biases that they don't even realise they have are there.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_04: And it should be a specialized panel.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_04: You can have twelve people, but they should be specialized people who do it, who make the choice.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_04: And they shouldn't allow the victim's choices before and after to determine the guilt of the moment.
• 50:46
  Khalila McCoy: Right.
• 50:47
  Khalila McCoy: But they do I mean there's more than enough research out there that talks about, like you said, why a victim would still be friends with someone or why a victim wouldn't come forward right away.
• 50:58
  Khalila McCoy: So it's not like we don't know these things.
• 51:00
  Khalila McCoy: It's not like this is the first time they've ever heard of this.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 51:04
  Khalila McCoy: So that it makes me even more upset to hear how you were treated in the courtroom.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_04: Hmm.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_04: And it's this it's just a standard way of how it's done.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_04: And it's the system is so broken.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_04: It's so broken, it's still based on like if someone robbed my house and I went in, had to go and be witness, they wouldn't say, Oh, well, you don't have locks on your door yet, you haven't reinforced your door, so therefore.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, obviously, it didn't really happen.
• 51:41
  Khalila McCoy: Why did you have that TV in there?
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you had a TV.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_04: Were you expecting you thought someone would?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_04: It's like they don't do it in other cases, but in sexual assault, all of a sudden, well, this happened after, so therefore, didn't really happen, did it?
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_04: You're making you're a liar.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, and it's just the most backward system, and I think it's really unfair to get 12 people and then to throw a load of but completely biased rape myths at them in the name of defense, and then expect their biases not to kick in.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_04: Everything they've ever been taught not to kick in.
• 52:27
  Khalila McCoy: Mm-hmm.
• 52:28
  Khalila McCoy: Have you done some work as far as like advocating for a change in the system or helping others who are going through this process?
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_04: Not really.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like I because I went to court in 20, end of 20, July 24.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_04: And I just I needed last year to me.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: I understand.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_04: I needed a yeah to get away.
• 52:57
  Khalila McCoy: Is that something you would like to do, or is it more just like more advocating and talking with the people who experienced it than getting into the legal part of it?
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I would like to advocate for changes because the reality is I can I can speak out and I can talk to the people going through it, but they're still gonna keep having the same experience that I had.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_04: Because it's it's what it is, it's how it works.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like you said, it's more of a change.
• 53:32
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah, more into the change in society and a change in the system, yeah.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but it is like change in society, and it is getting it's getting men to participate.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_04: Because it's all well and good that we say as as women that how we're treated isn't okay.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_04: But until and I can be out and I can call a guy for his behaviour, but if his friend calls him, there's a very different impact.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_04: And it's just for me, it's like if you see your friend doing something and speaking to a girl in a certain way, and you're like, it's fine, just imagine that somewhere else down the street is a woman you love, is it your sister, your daughter, your wife, your anyone, and imagine someone is doing to her what he's doing, is would that be okay?
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_04: And if the answer is no, then that girl you're looking at is someone else's sister, is someone else's daughter.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_04: And it's just like just until until the men start calling out other men, it's not gonna change.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_04: It just won't.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_04: It it hasn't so far.
• 54:53
  Khalila McCoy: So yeah, and unfortunately, like you said, it's not a location, it's everywhere, right?
• 54:59
  Khalila McCoy: Like we're in different countries and we're having this conversation.
• 55:02
  Khalila McCoy: You know, we know this is happening in the states, we know this is happening in other countries, so it's yeah, the whole world.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it's just they it's sometimes they make it as if it's okay.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_04: They still there's a lot of people who still believe a woman's body is their right.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_04: And that's unfortunate.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_04: But the w the people who feel the consequence of that, they're the ones that their life completely changes and it gets destroyed.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_04: The people who do it, they just carry on.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_04: It's no impact for them, it means nothing.
• 55:43
  Khalila McCoy: Oh yeah, they have told themselves a different version of the story, right?
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_04: Very different version.
• 55:52
  Khalila McCoy: Very different version.
• 55:55
  Khalila McCoy: So thinking about everything that you've shared with us today, everything you've gone through, and even looking forward to your future, what is the main thing that you are hoping that our listeners take away from your conversation?
• 56:09
  Khalila McCoy: And how can they rise from hearing what you've shared?
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_04: I say the best, the thing I would like most people to take away is just is the learning how to accept.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_04: That acceptance for me was the biggest key and accepting accepting that things happened.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_04: You can't go back in time.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_04: We can't change what happened, but we can change how we deal with it.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_04: We can change how we allow it to make us feel.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_04: We still have to feel it.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_04: We have to feel all the awful, awful things.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_04: But until you actually allow yourself to feel it and move through it and open up and talk about it, it's always gonna hold power over you.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_04: And whoever it was that did it does not deserve to have that hour.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_04: And so it is a case of acceptance.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_04: You do not have to forgive them.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_04: You can ignore all that crap.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_04: But you do have to forgive yourself.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_04: The only person you ever have to forgive is yourself.
• 57:33
  Khalila McCoy: So thinking about what you said earlier, as far as you gr grieving the girl who you once were, moving forward, becoming happy, becoming who you are now, and not wanting to just be, you know, the girl who was sexually assaulted.
• 57:50
  Khalila McCoy: You are so much more.
• 57:51
  Khalila McCoy: Tell us who you are.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_04: There's a question.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_04: I um I'm someone who loves to write.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_04: I get great pleasure out of it.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_04: I am someone who will spend all day in the ocean if I could, like happily say all the seven seas.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um I'm someone who loves rom-coms and cheesy movies.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm someone who really loves her friends and her family and is finally able to receive love in return, which is a whole new feeling for me.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 58:41
  Khalila McCoy: Well, I love that.
• 58:42
  Khalila McCoy: I'm so happy that you were able to get to this wonderful book.
• 58:46
  Khalila McCoy: You sound amazing.
• 58:47
  Khalila McCoy: I want to hang out with you.
• 58:49
  Khalila McCoy: We have a lot of things in common.
• 58:51
  Khalila McCoy: The cheesy rom-coms, the ocean.
• 58:54
  Khalila McCoy: I don't know how to surf, but it is on my bucket list of has to do with dreams.
• 59:01
  Khalila McCoy: It looks amazing.
• 59:02
  Khalila McCoy: So, yes.
• 59:04
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah, I could sit by on the beach all day if I if I was able to.
• 59:09
  Khalila McCoy: So yeah, I want to thank you, Esther, for your bravery of sharing this and what you're doing to help other people.
• 59:17
  Khalila McCoy: Um, I know there's someone out there who's gonna really connect with what you said and you know, kind of wake them up as well.
• 59:24
  Khalila McCoy: I know you mentioned before too that you're working on a book.
• 59:29
  Khalila McCoy: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a co-authored book and it's called Stories of Resilience.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_04: Are you sure?
• 59:44
  Khalila McCoy: No, I'm not.
• 59:48
  Khalila McCoy: So I'm guessing we're in the early stages.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not entirely certain.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_04: We'll just go with you're ready in a book or something.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so it's basically a co-chapter.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_04: So it's um it's multiple, multiple authors or multiple people coming in and writing, and I'm doing one chapter, and it's about my story and using my voice to kind of find my power.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's the chapter I'm working on at the moment, which I have to get in today.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_04: So I've got a little bit of writing to do for the rest of my day.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it's I'm actually really excited for it to come out because it was meant to come out at the end of last year, so I wrote a chapter for it, but I'm not in the same place anymore.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_04: So the chapter I wrote doesn't feel like so what uh hence I'm kind of rewriting it from a different, a different viewpoint, a different vantage from where I am now to kind of be like, you can it's all gonna be okay.
• 1:01:00
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 1:01:02
  Khalila McCoy: Do you ever go back and look at some of your older writings?
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:01:07
  Khalila McCoy: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:07
  Khalila McCoy: Yeah.
• 1:01:08
  Khalila McCoy: How does that make you feel?
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes it's I go back and I'm like, whoa, you can I can just I can just feel the pain in the words and it's and the hiding because I can also look back and go see it because it was me.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's just it's it's quite eye-opening, and I'm like, whoa, I don't, I just don't I'm not that person anymore.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_04: Which is it's really nice to be able to kind of speak out about what happened without it having to be all encompassing and being the only thing anyone knows about me.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_04: Now, majority of people that have met me in Australia have no idea.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_04: And they'll find out eventually, and I'll when I start writing and I start putting like the books out there, because I do I have two Instagram accounts.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_04: I have my own personal one, and I have one called Changing Currents, which is what I'm gonna be doing and putting the books and things on, and everything to do with speaking out and that side of life because I felt like I needed them to be separate.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't want my personal one to be all about that as well.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_04: There'll be crossover on occasion, but so I'm kind of gonna spend some time building that and just having a little bit more and speaking out a little bit more on that and just answering questions that people have and going into depth if people need it.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_04: So that's kind of the plan.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:02:51
  Khalila McCoy: Have you ever walked somebody who's been through what you've been through?
• 1:02:55
  Khalila McCoy: Have you ever walked them through the process of healing or you know, just had a deep conversation with them about your experience to kind of help them?
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um not not fully.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_04: Like I have spoken to there's a few people who've come and they've they've spoken out and they've told me.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I've always said, look, if you ever need to talk, like I am, I am here and I will be there for you and go through it.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_04: And they have I've had a lot of people open up to me and tell me for the first time what happened to them.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like I'm never gonna force anyone to to say it out loud if they don't want to, and if someone really doesn't want to report it, it's kind of their journey and they have to choose the way, but I will always be there to support someone in any way, shape, or form if they need it, because I do get it, I understand it.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I understand why someone wouldn't want to do it as well.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_04: I get that.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_04: And they don't have to do it if they can still find a way to give that shame back.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_04: They don't have to stand in a court to do it.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_04: I did, but they don't have to.
• 1:04:14
  Khalila McCoy: I like that.
• 1:04:15
  Khalila McCoy: That's like a perspective.
• 1:04:19
  Khalila McCoy: If someone listening wanted to connect with you, where would they find you?
• 1:04:23
  Khalila McCoy: I know you talked about the changing currents Instagram.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_04: Are you are you other places on social media or mainly just that to be fair at the moment?
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_04: It's where I spend most of my time.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_04: But I would it's just changingcurrents.co is my Instagram angle.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_04: So and that's where I will link the book to when I when that's ready to go, when I finish writing the chaplain.
• 1:04:50
  Khalila McCoy: Well, I will definitely follow and look forward to seeing your book.
• 1:04:54
  Khalila McCoy: All right, Esther.
• 1:04:55
  Khalila McCoy: Well, thank you again so much.
• 1:04:57
  Khalila McCoy: It was a pleasure talking to you.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_04: No, thank you for having me.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_04: I really enjoyed it.
• 1:05:04
  Khalila McCoy: This conversation with Esther gives us each so much to think about.
• 1:05:09
  Khalila McCoy: I hope you take some time to reflect on what your own personal takeaways are and share those thoughts and emotions with someone you trust.
• 1:05:16
  Khalila McCoy: I wrote a lot of things down that I want to remember, but the one thing that I want to share with you is this fight back.
• 1:05:24
  Khalila McCoy: Esther shared that as a 13-year-old, she was taught don't fight back when being attacked.
• 1:05:30
  Khalila McCoy: What I want to encourage this community to do is fight back.
• 1:05:34
  Khalila McCoy: Not in the physical sense, but in the ways that protect, uplift, and defend one another.
• 1:05:40
  Khalila McCoy: Fight back by speaking up when you know something is wrong.
• 1:05:45
  Khalila McCoy: Fight back by challenging unjust systems and biased ideas.
• 1:05:50
  Khalila McCoy: Fight back by standing beside the person who has gone through the unspeakable.
• 1:05:55
  Khalila McCoy: And fight back for yourself if you are that person in pain.
• 1:06:00
  Khalila McCoy: If you are someone carrying hurt, please hear this.
• 1:06:04
  Khalila McCoy: You are worthy of love, joy, safety, and healing.
• 1:06:09
  Khalila McCoy: Even if you don't feel it yet, even if you're still numb, even if you're still trying to make sense of what happened.
• 1:06:15
  Khalila McCoy: And if you're not there yet, remember what Esther said.
• 1:06:18
  Khalila McCoy: Take things one moment at a time.
• 1:06:21
  Khalila McCoy: One breath, one step, one small act of care towards yourself.
• 1:06:27
  Khalila McCoy: You don't have to rush your healing, you don't have to pretend you're okay, and you don't have to carry it alone.
• 1:06:33
  Khalila McCoy: You'll find your way slowly and at your own time.
• 1:06:36
  Khalila McCoy: And until then, this community is here to remind you that you are not broken and you are not alone and you are not beyond hope.
• 1:06:44
  Khalila McCoy: You are still rising.
• 1:06:47
  Khalila McCoy: I know this topic is a difficult one, but I still encourage you to share this episode with others.
• 1:06:52
  Khalila McCoy: Conversations like this matter.
• 1:06:54
  Khalila McCoy: They create awareness and break silence, and they open doors for healing.
• 1:06:59
  Khalila McCoy: If we ever hope to see real change, we have to be willing to talk about what so many people are still caring alone.
• 1:07:07
  Khalila McCoy: Thank you so much, Esther, for sharing today.
• 1:07:10
  Khalila McCoy: Thank you for your bravery and your honesty.
• 1:07:13
  Khalila McCoy: I am truly honored to have your voice on the show.
• 1:07:16
  Khalila McCoy: And to you, my wonderful listener, I hope you enjoy the rest of your day and take a moment to reflect on where compassion is needed most in your world.
• 1:07:25
  Khalila McCoy: Maybe it's towards someone you love, maybe it's towards someone who's hurting, or maybe today it's towards yourself.
• 1:07:32
  Khalila McCoy: Reach out and let me know how you felt about today's episode.
• 1:07:37
  Khalila McCoy: I can't wait to talk to you.
• 1:07:39
  Khalila McCoy: I'll meet you back here next time.
• 1:07:42
  Khalila McCoy: Goodbye.