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June Questions and Answers Service by Hiram Kemp and Neal Pollard · Cumberland Trace Church of Christ (Formerly Lehman Ave Church of Christ)

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Well it's time once again for our monthly Q&A session. For the benefits of visitors
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or those watching online or watching online at a later date, Cumberland Trace once a month
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has the tradition of doing a Q&A session where they request for members to submit any questions
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they have about scriptural related topics. We've got the benefit of the resource, the
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great resource of the minds of Hiram and Neil to answer those questions. It reminds me of
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Paul Harvey quote from the old radio broadcast, but now it's time for the rest of the story.
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I guess I'm young, but I know stuff. I believe our first question tonight will be for Hiram, and that
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question is, what does 1st Corinthians chapters 12 through 14 teach us about the spiritual
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gifts in the first century and how does it apply today? Alright, if you have your Bible
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you can turn to 1st Corinthians chapter 12. Chapters 12 through 14 is a threefold section
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that must be studied together. It's the most extensive section on spiritual gifts in this
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letter and most likely in all of the New Testament where Paul is dealing with spiritual gifts.
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In chapter 1 in verse 7, Paul said the Corinthians weren't lacking in any spiritual gifts, so
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whatever spiritual gifts were available in the first century church, the church at Corinth
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had them in totality. In chapters 12, 13, and 14, Paul's dealing with spiritual gifts from
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three different vantage points. In chapter 12, the primary focus on the spiritual gifts
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is that there are various gifts offered, but each person has something to contribute and
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though they have different gifts, they all work together for the unification of the body.
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That's 1st Corinthians 12, 1 through 11. In 1st Corinthians 12, 12 through 24, Paul says
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that none of these individuals had the right, due to their different gifts, to look down
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on another. In fact, he says we should esteem those of lower value, at least as it relates
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to visibility, because our more presentable parts have no need of that. So in 1st Corinthians
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12, the argument about spiritual gifts, whether it's miracles, tongues, supernatural knowledge,
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is that the various Christians in Corinth had gifts, but nothing about their value or
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worth in the eyes of God was diminished or exalted based on their spiritual gift. In
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chapter 13, Paul says, in fact, the greatest gift is love, and whatever gifts that the
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Corinthians might have had, in 1st Corinthians 13, 1 through 3, Paul says if you have all
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of those things, but you don't have love, the spiritual gifts are of no value. In chapters
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13, verses 8 through 10, Paul says love never fails, prophecies will fail, knowledge will,
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tongues will vanish away, but we know in part for a time, but when the perfect is come,
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that which is in part will vanish away. And so in chapter 13, love is the supreme gift
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that should be pursued above tongues and prophecy, because love will outlast all of the gifts.
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And then finally, in chapter 14, Paul gets to the heart of his discussion that it seems
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the Corinthians were battling over, and that is, which gift is more profitable or better
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for the church, prophecy or tongues? And in 1st Corinthians 14, 1 through 5, Paul says
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tongues are assigned for unbelievers, but prophecy builds up the church. And he concludes
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his argument, really, in verse 39, where he says, I wish that you all spoke in tongues,
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but especially that you prophesied, because prophecy, as it was used in the first century
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church, was for the building up and the edifying of the body. In the use of their spiritual
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gifts, he says in verse 33, God's not the author of confusion, and they need to exercise
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their spiritual gifts one at a time, because God wants things done decently and in order.
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That's chapter 14 in verse 40. And so the gifts, that's how Paul describes them in 1 Corinthians
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12 through 14. What's the bearing on us today? I would say several things. It's clear from
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the text and from the rest of the New Testament that what Paul is describing in relation to
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spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 through 14 was limited to a special situation with
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Christians in the first century church. The miraculous gifts discussed there do not persist
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today for several reasons. Number one, in 1 Corinthians 13 and verse 10, Paul says when
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that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will be done away with. Most likely,
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that's a reference to once we have the completed canon of scripture, there would be no longer
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a need for those miracles to confirm the message that was given and authenticated by those
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gifts. But secondly, in the New Testament, the giving of spiritual gifts, the passing
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on of that miraculous power was done by the laying on of the apostles' hands. Acts chapter
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6, Neal talked about it this morning, the apostles laid hands on those seven men. And
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in Acts chapter 8, verses 18 through 24, when the Samaritans hear the gospel, Peter and
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John go down to Samaria so that they can lay hands on those individuals and they'd have
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that miraculous power. They had previously laid hands on Philip, but he wasn't able to
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transfer the power. Second Timothy 1 and verse 6, Paul said he laid hands on Timothy
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and Timothy was able to use those gifts. And so the miraculous age ceased when the last
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person died on whom the apostles had laid their hands. And so the miraculous age doesn't
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continue. And you can add to that Hebrews 2, 1 through 4, which says the miraculous
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gifts were given to confirm the word. But once we have it confirmed, there's no longer
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a need for the gifts. It's like scaffolding on a building. Once the building goes up,
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that which was for a temporary time is removed. But there's still something to be learned
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for us concerning the gifts, though we don't possess miraculous gifts. That is number one,
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each of us has a talent and an ability, albeit non-miraculous, that God expects us to use
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for his glory and we shouldn't diminish ourselves based on what we have or exalt ourselves.
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Number two, whatever we have and whatever we use, God wants us to do it decently and
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in order. If anything's apparent from these three chapters, it is everybody has talent
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in the kingdom of God, but worship is not a talent show. Sometimes people say, well,
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I've got this talent. Surely God would want me to use it. First Corinthians 12 through
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14, Paul is emphatic. Everybody has talent, but worship is not a talent show where everybody
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does whatever they can do for God. He says in chapter 14, verse 16 and chapter 14 and
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verse 23, if you do this, worship turns into a circus and it'll turn off unbelievers. And
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last but not least, whatever gift we have is for the building up of the body and not
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for the building up of ourselves. First Corinthians 14 and verse 12. Whatever God's given us to
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do is to benefit and bless the church and not to make a name for ourselves, but to lift
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up and exalt his name.
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Neil, anything you'd like to add?
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That's good.
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That sums it up pretty well. Okay, Neil, I believe this is your question. What exactly
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is the gift of the Holy Spirit?
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This is a great tie and we didn't put these in any particular order, but it goes well
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with just what was said from First Corinthians 12 through 14. If you want to look in Acts
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2.38, it's a very familiar passage to us and it seems so often when we're teaching in evangelism
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or appealing in an invitation, we will look at the first part of Acts 2.38 and we sometimes
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either omit or we don't certainly explain the second part of that passage. This is where
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the folks on Pentecost have heard Jesus preached. He is declared Lord and Christ and the people
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are convicted by the message and they ask what they must do. What is said there in Acts
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2.38 is repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the
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forgiveness of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This gives rise
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to the question, what is that gift of the Holy Spirit? As far as I can see it, there
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are two major thoughts, especially among us regarding that, that either this was a promise
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of a miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit or it is the gift of the Holy Spirit himself
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on everyone who comes into Christ. I don't believe that the former is the right answer
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and a lot of that was for the reasons that were just explained by Hiram and in tandem
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with verse 39, that is that the apostles were laying hands on individuals who were already
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Christians like the Samaritans in Acts 8.14 and following that allowed them to have the
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miraculous gifts. They didn't have it before Peter and John came from Jerusalem and so
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it wouldn't make sense, especially with what Peter says next. In verse 39 he says, and
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by the way this is a promise not a command, you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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For the promise is unto you, the folks who are present there on Pentecost and unto your
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children, seemingly the Jews, and unto them that are far off, that would be the Gentile
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world where the gospel is going to go in the first century, even as many as the Lord our
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God shall call. So what we're looking for is a promise that's going to be fulfilled
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to everybody who answers the call of the gospel to become a Christian. And so the gift of
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the Holy Spirit is the gift of the Holy Spirit. And to help us to have confidence in this
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there are a variety of passages in the New Testament if you want notation of this that
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says explicitly that the Spirit of God is in you, in Christians. Romans 8 verse 9 and
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verse 11, Paul in the great comfort of that chapter says that very thing. He speaks to
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the church at Corinth in 1 Corinthians 3 and verse 14 and says the Holy Spirit is in you
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all. And then in chapter 6 and verse 19 your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is
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in you, who you have of God and you're not your own. He's going to write to other churches
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in Galatians 4 and verse 6, this is a cause for your great comfort to know that we can
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cry out, the Spirit of God that is in us, we can cry out Abba Father. Ephesians 1 verse
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13 tells us part of the reason why. It's a seal of our redemption, a down payment on
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what's to be given at the last day, Ephesians 1 and verse 13. You might write down 2 Timothy
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chapter 1 and verse 14 where we're told that the Spirit of God dwells within us. Jesus
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promised this in John 14 and verse 17 that the Spirit of God will dwell with you and
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will be in you. And so that's a blessing to have a gift like that, that God's Spirit dwells
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within us. Ephesians 3 verse 16 says that we are strengthened in our inner man by God's
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Spirit who is in us. Romans 8 verse 26, though I don't know exactly how that plays out, he
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makes intercession for our prayers. And so, very simply, the gift of the Holy Spirit which
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comes to all of us who answer the call of the Gospel is the indwelling of God's Spirit
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within us. It's our redemption.
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Hiram, anything to add?
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I can't believe our next question is for you. If God already knows everything, isn't our
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life already predestined and predetermined? And does it matter what we do?
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A lot of people sometimes have this question in mind even if they don't vocalize it concerning
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God's omniscience and what God knows. The Bible does teach that God knows everything,
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that God knows the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46 and verse 10. Psalm 139, David is
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speaking about God's omnipresence, God's kindness and his omnibenevolence, but also his omniscience.
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And David says in Psalm 139 and verse 2, you know my thoughts are far off. And then
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he describes the inescapability of God. He says, if I ascend to heaven, you're there.
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If I make my bed in Sheol, you're there. Darkness is his light to you, there's no way around
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you. Psalm 139, 7 through 11. But what we need to see is wherever the Bible talks about
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God knowing everything, God's omniscience, it's always held up as something that's a
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comfort to God's people and not as something that makes life meaningless or void or empty.
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God does know everything, but that's a comfort to us that God is present and that that knowledge
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should cause us to trust in him and live for him. So Hebrews 4 and verse 13, the Hebrew
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writer says, all things are naked and open before the eyes of him to whom we must give
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an account. God knows everything. And yet that doesn't mean that our lives are predestined
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or predetermined. The God of scriptures described as knowing the end from the beginning. And
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yet we're given free will and God holds out in the Bible that you and I get to choose
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and just think about some of the passages you already know that emphasize human choice.
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Joshua 24, 15, choose you this day. Now God knows all of the choices and God even knows
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what people will choose, but he doesn't intervene and prevent people from choosing or force
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people to go in a certain way. He told ancient Israel, I've set before you death and life,
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choose life that you might live. Deuteronomy 30 in verse 15, Deuteronomy 30 in verse 19.
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So God knows everything, but he doesn't intervene in our lives in such a way that we have to
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go in a certain direction and choose no matter what we decide. God's omniscience doesn't
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mean that all of our life is predetermined, that our choices already played out. This
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question is where to specifically, if God already knows everything, but we don't already
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know everything. The Bible does speak of predestination in the sense of a collective group of people
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that obey the gospel have been predetermined by God to be saved. Ephesians one, four through
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five and Romans eight in verse 29, but your life and my life is not a movie that's already
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been played out that God's simply watching back. Instead, we're living it out, making
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daily choices and decisions, which God allows us to make, hoping and trusting that with
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his providence, his Bible passages, his people, that we would choose rightly and well. And
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at the same time, scripture holds out that absolutely nothing surprises him because he
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knows everything. There are areas in our lives where we know a great deal about how things
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are going to play out before they ever do. And none of that diminishes our love, our
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depth of relationship or our desire to be involved. So if you have children of any age,
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the day your children were born, you knew that moment that they weren't going to stay
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that age forever. You knew that when they were 10 and 15 and into their twenties. And
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though, you know, predetermined, this isn't a surprise. It doesn't develop for you over
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time, though you knew that entering that relationship, you're still able to love full fledged and
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you're not able to, it doesn't mean that this relationship doesn't mean anything because
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one day it'll terminate or it'll change or to transform. If anything, it enhances your
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desire to do so. If you're married, logically, you know that at one point or at some point
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in life, you and your spouse would depart from each other in death, or if not then, then
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certainly in the resurrection when Jesus returns. And yet that doesn't mean, well, because I
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know this relationship in and of itself as it presently stands is never lasting.
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You know that already. That foreknowledge doesn't make that relationship worthless or
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meaningless. Again, if anything, it enhances it. The omniscience of God as it's held out
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in scripture doesn't mean what we do doesn't matter. It means we serve a God who knows
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the past, who knows the present, who knows the future and whatever's coming, whether
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it be good or bad, indifferent or ugly, we serve a God who's already there and he's on
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our side. And that's how Jesus ends the book of Matthew in Matthew 28 in verse 20, behold,
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I'm with you always, even until the end of the age. So the omniscience of God doesn't
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mean everything's already predetermined, there's nothing we can do. God's given us
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choices and options, nothing surprises our God, and that's ultimately good news for us.
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Neil, anything to add?
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As always, he nails it down.
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Tough act to follow. Neil, this question is yours. Can you explain 2 Thessalonians chapter
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2, verses 8 through 12?
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We'll see. What we'll do though is we're going to expand that out. If you have your Bibles,
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I think it's worthwhile for us to look at 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 beginning at verse
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1. We're going to read that paragraph that talks about what we often refer to or who
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we often refer to as the man of sin or the man of lawlessness. Now, the original question
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was very involved and had several elements, and so I hope that by looking at this that
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we'll answer the variety of questions and then come away with what it means to us today.
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Just by way of an outline or the way I would outline 2 Thessalonians 2, 1 through 12, is
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that these new Christians, and they're very new Christians, the church is established
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in Acts 17 at Thessalonica, and after just a few weeks, Paul and the missionaries are
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forced to leave, and so they're worried about how this young church is doing. So not long
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after, Paul's going to write two letters back-to-back, 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians, and in
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both of those letters, these new Christians are wondering about the second coming of Christ.
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There was a lot of misinformation, so I would say verses 1 through 3 is they had received
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some disturbing information about the day of the Lord. They needed, number 2, divine
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information about the day of the Lord. That'd be verse 3 through verse 10, and they faced
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some deluding influences about the day of the Lord, and that would be verse 11 and 12.
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But let's look at it. Let's see, perhaps, if we can understand or formulate some theories
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about who this might be, and then what the takeaway would be for us today. Paul says,
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Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to
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Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit
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or a spoken word or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the
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Lord has come. They're concerned that Christ has come again, and they have missed it. Let
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no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first,
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and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts
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himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the
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temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still
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with you, I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now, so that
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he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he
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who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will
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be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of His mouth and bring to
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nothing by the appearance of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity
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of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for
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those who are perishing because they refuse to love the truth, and so be saved. Therefore
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God sends them a strong delusion so that they may believe what is false, in order that all
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may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." So obviously
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whatever this is, it's very disturbing to these new Christians. It's a matter of spiritual
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life and death for them. And there are some elements that Paul points out that are notable
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for us. First of all, Paul says, I think it's in verse 5 that we just saw, that he had told
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them these things already. So he gave them some information about whoever or whatever
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this was that they knew, that they could recall, but which is not revealed to us in Scripture.
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So it was something they needed in light of what he was about to tell them that has not
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been preserved for us. There are two ways that I think that are plausible to look at
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who, if you, I'm going to put that somewhat in quotes, the man of lawlessness is, and
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I think both of these are acceptable possible explanations. There is an idea here that that
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which was developing, it hadn't fully happened, that if we're recalling from the book of Acts
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that the Jews were opposing the Christians, and they were fighting them. The Roman Empire
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is looking at the Jews and the Christians, and they're seeing a couple of groups that
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are not in line with the rest of the empire religiously. And as long as those Jews are
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still existent, then the Romans aren't focusing only on the Christians. We can look at history
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and see that there's not a general persecution against the church yet. And that influence
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that's going to be taken out of the way is going to happen in A.D. 70, not long after
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this is written, when the Jews are destroyed. And then the Romans have one apostate people
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in their minds, and that would be Christians. And they could focus on them, and we certainly
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do see a lot of persecution focusing on the Christians after A.D. 70. And so we could
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go through and look at some of what Paul is warning them about and saying, this is already
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happening, this process is happening, and very soon the Jews are going to be destroyed
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and scattered at A.D. 70 by the Romans, and then Christ is going to come in judgment of
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those Jews at that time, that coming of Christ at A.D. 70 against them, that will then make
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you will know that Christ's coming is not going to be before then. There are others
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who would say that this is describing the general apostasy that happens in the church.
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That there, in some of the language, like you go back and you say verse 3, that day
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will not come unless the rebellion comes first, the man of lawlessness revealed, the son of
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destruction who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god, an object of
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worship, somebody who equates himself with God and takes his place in the temple of God,
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proclaiming himself to be God. That that man of lawlessness would lead to the apostasy.
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Paul's going to elsewhere talk about a coming departure from the truth that would result
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in a group of people who would be, would result in a different religious group than the New
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Testament church. And that being the case, then Paul is telling them that that's going
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to continue to be the case in our world until Christ comes in the final judgment again.
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So the apostate church and of course protestant groups that have come out of that, some would
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say this is what Paul is saying, this hasn't happened yet. There's seeds, we're moving
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in that direction but it hasn't occurred yet. And so don't worry, Christ's second coming
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has not been missed. Those are plausible possibilities. The second one might have more bearing on
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us today but I would suggest what matters the most is what Paul says in verse 11 and
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verse 12 because it's not just something that's limited to being a part of apostasy or being
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a Christian in a Jewish world or in the Roman Empire. It's something that we face today.
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Look at what he says in verse 11. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion so that they
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may believe what is false. That can still happen in a variety of ways to us today. The
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true gospel is not nearly as popular as that which would be easier to follow an alternative.
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And those who go into this have their eyes wide open. They don't want the truth. They
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want something that's easier. He says they take pleasure in unrighteousness. Paul near
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the end of his life is going to say that some are going to turn away their ears from the
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truth and be turned unto fables. So as I make application of this in my life, I need to
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value the truth of God's word like the Thessalonians did. 1 Thessalonians 2 and verse 13 and believe
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the truth and even if something sounds better, easier, and appeals to me more, I need to
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reject it if it is at odds with the truth. Now whoever that man of sin or lawlessness
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may be, that's a principle that all of us need to hold on to. And that may be something
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Hiram you might want to comment on and clarify. No, I think Neil did a great job. Everything
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he said is, I agree with, especially the last part. And I will just say this, passages
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like this, the man of lawlessness or the antichrist mentioned plural in 1 John and 2 John. There
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are all kinds of people, and you can go to any bookstore and find this, that become what
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I'll just call end time fanatics. And their whole thrust of their spirituality and their
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theology is to identify these people and who they were and when these things happened.
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But if you just read the text that Neil broke down, Paul's main point is not the identification
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of this person, but instead he will be destroyed with the breath of Jesus' mouth, the ultimate
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victory in Jesus, and the need for Christians to love truth and be godly. So whenever we
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approach texts like this, or you can think about various individuals identified throughout
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the book of Revelation, I don't think there's anything wrong with studying those things
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out and trying to land on an interpretation for our own purposes. But at the end of the
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day, the so what of these passages is ultimately what the biblical authors were driving at.
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Because if it mattered indefinitely that we identify who this person was so that we
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could properly understand this passage without fail, God would have told us. And since he
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didn't, evidently the Thessalonians knew, and Neil gives some great historical information
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and some plausible interpretations. But at the end of the day, we won't be swept up with
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whoever the man of lawlessness is. The strong delusion will evade us if we love truth and
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just really press toward the goal. So I just want to echo what Neil said, but just broaden
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that out to all end-time ideas. People that start watching for those signs and obsessing
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over it often find themselves falling into the very delusion that the Bible's warning
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against. And so instead of trying to identify individuals, God's often saying, prioritize
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your virtue, develop the fruit of the spirit, love truth, and whoever it is, whatever it
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is, and whenever it is, you'll be on the side of God and truth, and it won't matter.
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Hiram, I believe this next one is for you. Can Satan hear our thoughts and prayers?
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I think there are several answers to this. I would have to say first, I believe that
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the answer to that is yes, because at least in part, people in the world, individuals
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can hear our prayers when we pray out loud. Satan can hear our prayers, sinners can hear
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our prayers, and so people in the world can hear our prayers. It's interesting as you
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read throughout the Psalms especially, though, how often the psalmist highlights that God's
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the one listening to his prayers. So just think about passages like Psalm 6, verses
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8 and 9, or Psalm 40 and verse 1, or Psalm 66 and verse 19, or Psalm 116 and verse 1.
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The psalmist is often highlighting and emphasizing the fact that no matter who else hears and
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whatever else may be going on, that God's listening to his prayers, and that's the main
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thing that matters. So 1 John 5 and verse 14, John says this is the confidence we have
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in him. If we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that we
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have the petitions that we've asked of him, whatever those are, then we know we have the
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confidence to pray to him. So can Satan hear our prayers? The first part of that answer
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is yes in part, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that he can thwart, intercept,
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or change our prayers or their delivery to God whatsoever. Job says at the end of that
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book in Job 42 and verse 2, now I know you're God and nothing can thwart your purposes. So
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you don't have to whisper as if Satan's going to hear it and change it or divert anything
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that you're asking God. But another aspect of can Satan hear our thoughts and prayers
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would have to be in part no, because sometimes a lot of Christians pray internally or silently,
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and Satan can't read or hear our thoughts. Throughout scripture, one of the attributes
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that is held up as belonging to God that makes him God, and this is in part something we talked
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about earlier with God's omniscience, but one of the virtues or capabilities that God has
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that sets him apart from everybody else and everything else is that God knows the heart
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and he knows everything we're thinking about. If Satan has that too, then that's no longer a
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divine virtue. It's just open to the spiritual world at large, but the Bible holds it up as
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something that's divine and not demonic. And so he tells Samuel when he goes to the household
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of Jesse in 1 Samuel 16, 7, the Lord looks on the heart and only the Lord can do that. Or Jeremiah
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17 in verse 10, I the Lord searched the heart and I tried the reins to see and report, repay every
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man according to his work. Revelation 2 in verse 23, Jesus tells the church at Thyatira, I'm the
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one that searches the hearts and the mind and Satan, he can't do that. Satan can't read our minds
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and know what we're saying internally, only God can do that. And so we should trust that Satan
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can't hear our thoughts and our prayers and intercept them and do anything different. What
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John says in 1 John 4 in verse 4 is greater is the one who is in you than the one who's
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ultimately in the world. And so we pray to God through the person of Jesus Christ with the help
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of the spirit and whatever Satan hears, he can't stop that, but he doesn't hear everything. And one
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more thing along these lines concerning our thoughts and our prayers is keep in mind that
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Satan does not know everything. I think sometimes we sort of put God on one side, Satan on the other
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with equal power, one's just good and one's just bad, but the Bible is clear, Satan doesn't know
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everything. Satan didn't know that Job would stay faithful no matter what, Job 1, 6 through 12, Job
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2, 1 through 4, he threw the kitchen sink at Job, he says Job's going to curse God, Satan didn't know
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that but God knew. Satan didn't know that the death of Jesus was ultimately not a part of defeat
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but a part of the will of God that was going to bring salvation to the masses or he would have
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never had Jesus crucified. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2, 6 through 8 concerning the crucifixion
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of Jesus, which none of the princes of the world knew. Had they known it, they would not have
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crucified the Lord of glory. So just as detrimental as not ascribing any power to Satan whatsoever,
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which is a problem, thinking that the devil can't do any harm, I think equally and maybe even more so
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is giving too much power to the devil and thinking he knows our thoughts, he reads our minds, he can
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hear our prayers, he knows what we want and so he tempts us in certain ways. That's just not true.
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I've said this before but the devil is a lot more like Amazon than he is the Almighty.
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Amazon suggests things for you to buy, you to try, you to engage in based on things you previously
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purchased and they look at your history and they say, hey this probably is for you. The devil does
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the same thing. He sees us stumble and fall and we give him the intel and he says based on your
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temperament, based on your temptation track record, these things probably are for you. But he
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doesn't know everything, he can't hear our prayers, and he can't stop what God wants to do in answering
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those prayers and his involvement in our lives. Neil, next question. How do we reconcile Proverbs 6
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verse 17 with God's command to Saul and his men to kill child and infant in 1 Samuel 15 verse 3?
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Does this go against Ezekiel 18 verse 20? Was he testing them like he did with Abraham and Isaac?
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So in answer to that, Proverbs 6 17 is a list is that passage I guess it's 6 16 through 19 is
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what we often call the seven deadly sins and one of those things that God hates that are an
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abomination to him is hands that shed innocent blood. If you'll look at that list, that proud
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look, the lying tongue, that entire list, these are unjust, ungodly, self-serving sins that men
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commit against other men. There's no bent or rationale for considering anything outside of
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what somebody wants to do. So this is unrighteous, ungodly behavior of intemperate people. So we lay
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that aside and look at that and then deal with, by contrast, what God is telling men to do. And I
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would suggest that it's not just with the Amalekites in 1 Samuel chapter 15, but if you
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want to lay one aside alongside of that, do you remember when God sends the Israelites to
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destroy Jericho in Joshua chapter 6? A very similar instruction is given and in the instructions in
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1 Samuel 15 and I believe it's verse 10 or 11 where Samuel wants to know what God's ruling is
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on Saul's disobedience. Here's what God says to Saul and the people, that they were to go and they
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were to destroy the Amalekites. And among that which they were to destroy was not just livestock
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and not just men and women, but children and infants. And so somebody goes, now why is it that
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God would say that it's wrong for man to do this and then God turn around and command a king or
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anyone for that matter to go and to do that very thing. Two things with regard to the divine here.
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We have a divine judgment and we have a divine punishment. Here is God acting in judgment and He
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tells in both situations in 1 Samuel 15 and Joshua chapter 6 that they were to go in and they were to
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utterly destroy. They were devoted to destruction. And this was God's judgment on the Amalekites
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because of what they had done to the Israelites in Exodus chapter 17 verse 8. They have left Egypt,
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they're going toward the promised land and on the way the Amalekites assault them and they harass
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them and they sin against the people of God and the violence that they do to them. God has taken
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note of this. By the way, He has given them 400 years to repent. They have not done so and so God
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in a patient and merciful forbearance now says, Saul, this is the work I want you to do.
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I want you to go in, but I want you to destroy everything. The Hebrew word of concept is
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It's the idea of devoted, it's sacred to God, it's set apart. And so you'll notice in both cases the Israelites
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could not take of any of the spoil. This was a judgment that's gone, it's done, you can't do
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anything with it. This is why there's sin on the part of both Saul and in the Israelite army.
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Achan went in and he took of the spoil and took it for himself and what does God do? God exercises
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divine judgment on Achan and his house because they disobeyed what God said. This is a judgment,
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God has the right to judge in any way He chooses. He's sovereign, we're not. If He says this is how I'm
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going to handle the sin of these folks and by the way there's some mercy in that. Those infants and
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those children weren't given the opportunity to grow up and by the law of averages
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live an immoral life and die lost eternally. But with regard to what happens in Saul's case,
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Saul saves the king, Agag, and the people take the spoil and they save it, quote, to offer it
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to the Lord. They had their own rationale, they're going to do it their own way and God is displeased.
34:48
He takes the kingship from Saul because it's rebellion against God's judgment and God's
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justice and God's punishment. Ezekiel 1820 says that with regard to the sins that the
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father does, those are not going to be imputed on the son. The son doesn't have to pay the penalty
35:08
of the crime that the father does, but God's judgment is not subject to our
35:16
discrutability or our calling into question. God is acting in judgment as He will do someday
35:23
ultimately and that's the difference between what God's doing there, He's not testing them,
35:28
He's saying you're my instruments of judgment, go and do the work that I've told you to do,
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but He also adds in there this is holy and devoted to me.
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I'll just say I don't know how this happened, we divided up the questions evenly,
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Neil's got the hardest questions tonight, two times in a row and I think question number six
35:47
that's on the screen is probably one of the hardest questions in the Old Testament, so
35:51
Neil, I think you did a great job answering that and if you know anybody, whoever struggles with
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what they call the wrath of God in the Old Testament or the anger of God, this will come up,
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God's character will be put on trial by these individuals and I think what Neil just gave was
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an awesome answer as best as you can say given the conditions of killing and infants and children,
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but it is a challenging question. Here's what I'll say, nothing to add to what Neil's already
36:14
covered, if we take this question and we say I don't see how God could or why would God do this
36:19
or that, we do have to step back and say where did we get those attributes from, this idea of right
36:24
and wrong and justice and goodness, we should tread lightly and using God's own attributes to
36:30
then sit in judgment on who God is and tell God what's right versus what's wrong because any sense
36:36
of rightness and oughtness that we've derived, it's merely borrowed virtue from God and so we
36:41
can't exalt ourselves in our own opinions and say if I were God, if I knew what was right or wrong,
36:46
I wouldn't do x, y, and z. God is sovereign, he's all good, all holy, but he's also just and whatever
36:51
he does is right. Ezekiel 18 and verse 20, those passages do speak about condemnation and I think
36:58
Neil is right that those children that would have been killed in this punishment, they are suffering
37:03
consequences based on their forefather's sins but they wouldn't be receiving eternal condemnation
37:09
and I think there's a difference. So we can suffer consequences because of the sins of our parents
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but that doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to be receiving their guilt or their
37:19
condemnation and this plays out and you can think about physical ways that this is true,
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economical ways in which this is true even today, you can suffer consequences for things done in
37:29
previous generations but that in no way means you inherit or receive guilt and I think that's
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the heart of Ezekiel 18 and verse 20, you can't impugn God and say I'm suffering in this way
37:39
ultimately and being condemned because I'm borrowing guilt from my parents. But again,
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probably the hardest question tonight, one of the most difficult ones in the Old Testament,
37:47
but God's righteousness and holiness needs to be held up and that's what I think Neil did in
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answering that and so great job and I don't know how he got all the hard questions but
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I'm glad he took it on and did great.
38:00
Okay, the next question for Hiram, had Jesus always been God's son?
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The proper name for this belief or this doctrine and maybe you haven't heard of it in these terms
38:11
but it's referred to as eternal sonship and it's the idea that Jesus has always been God's son
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and the way I'm going to answer this question is no, Jesus has not always been God's son.
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Jesus has always been God, Jesus has always been divine, Jesus is co-equal, creator,
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eternal with God the Father and with God the Holy Spirit but the position or the title of son
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is something that's attributed to Jesus once he reaches earth as a part of his physical
38:42
appearance here and his incarnation as a human being and if you read the gospel accounts,
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for example, Luke chapter 1 when Gabriel is speaking to Mary, he says you'll be given
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birth to a son and he'll be called the son of God most high, Luke 1 33 through 35.
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Peter says in Caesarea Philippi Matthew 16 and verse 16 that Jesus is the Christ,
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the son of the living God. Throughout the New Testament, the title son of God is just that,
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it's a title, it's about Jesus' messianic role as the Messiah and it's a physical description
39:13
placed on Jesus during his earthly advent into the world to describe his relationship to God
39:18
but if you just go back into eternity, there is no father, son and spirit hierarchy, that's a part
39:24
of the language God uses to communicate Jesus' role to us on earth today. Go to Genesis 1 and
39:30
verse 26, God simply says let us make man in our image. When the prophets speak about the coming
39:36
of Jesus in Isaiah 40, it says John the Baptist will prepare the way for Yahweh which is God and
39:42
when Jesus shows up, that's exactly who John was preparing the way for. So in Genesis, let's just
39:47
say chapter 0 before humanity's created or anything like that, Jesus is not viewed as the son of God,
39:53
it's a spiritual title to represent his messianic position but eternal sonship, that the fact that
39:59
Jesus has always been God, I don't believe the Bible teaches it and you might think well this
40:03
doctrine doesn't really matter whichever way you fall but there is a sense in which it does.
40:07
If eternal sonship is a thing, if Jesus has always been God's son, it at least opens the door
40:13
for a sort of hierarchy in the Godhead and is Jesus as eternal as God and what about his position
40:19
if he's begotten of God but the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible says he's eternal, he created
40:24
everything and that he's equal with God and that he takes on the title of son as his title on earth.
40:30
Jesus is his earthly name meaning God is salvation, Christ or son of God or Messiah are all descriptions
40:37
of who he is and you could see the one chapters for this, Colossians 1, 15 through 17, John 1, 1
40:44
through 5 and Hebrews 1, 1 through 5 for Jesus' eternality. One last thing you might be thinking
40:50
well sometimes you read the Old Testament and it says that Jesus is the son of God or there are
40:55
these passages about the son and I would just say that those passages are looking ahead to what Jesus
41:00
is going to become as far as his earthly advent or looking back with that same idea. You might say
41:05
this today, President Abraham Lincoln was born in this place. Well when you go back to when Abraham
41:10
Lincoln was born he wasn't president at that time, you're just taking something you know about him
41:15
and attributing it back to this time period. You might say Michael Jordan, the NBA all-star was
41:20
born in this place but when he was born he wasn't that. You're just looking at what you know now
41:25
and pointing backwards in that same way and I think the Old Testament does this about Jesus
41:29
as the son all the time. He's son in the relationship to God now but that's not what
41:34
he's always been referred to as. Just really quick I think what can cause some confusion and
41:41
that's obviously very thorough and right there. Galatians 4, 4 says when the fullness of
41:46
time had come God sent forth his son made of a woman made under the law to redeem those who are under
41:52
the curse of the law and then in John 3, 17 Jesus said God sent not his son into the world to condemn
41:57
the world but the world through him might be saved. We go well see that's sonship before he came to
42:02
earth but that's the same principle that Aaron was talking about in the Old Testament. You now
42:06
have writers who are writing after the fact and are looking at what was the time before he came
42:11
to this earth in the role that he assumed by coming to this earth and so they're referring
42:15
back to him in that way. Not that he was that before he came to this earth by way of his
42:22
relationship there. So that's all I would say is when you see those passages it still harmonizes
42:26
perfectly with what was said. All right Neil question eight at what point age in a child's life
42:34
is a parent no longer held spiritually accountable for those choices their child makes that are not
42:40
in line with scripture? So I believe that they're the longer question says is this as long as they're
42:47
at home or for the rest of their lives and especially with that contrast what I would say
42:51
is that it seems that totality of scripture shows the responsibility that we have that's special
42:57
and unique when our children are at home and practicality tells us that when our children
43:03
graduate from the home they graduate from that greater sphere of influence that we have over
43:08
them as long as they're at home. There are there's order in the home that God gives that each
43:15
person in the home has to fulfill their role. Ephesians 6 1 through 3 tells children
43:23
to obey their parents. This seems to be in line with the training that God's given the parents
43:29
for the children to train up their children the way they should go Proverbs 22 6 or to make sure
43:33
that the child when they're growing up is told what who God is and what their relationship is
43:40
to be to him like is in the Shema and Deuteronomy 6 4 through 6 and so we're training, we're
43:46
influencing, we're modeling, we have that period of time that they're in our home to try to prepare
43:51
them and to help them to live independent of our home with their faith. There are some principles
43:58
that tell us that that relationship changes when they leave home. For example, when one wants to
44:03
be married Genesis 2 24 which Jesus echoes says that a man is to leave father and mother and to
44:10
be joined unto his wife and the two shall become one flesh. They'll leave and cleave and be one
44:15
flesh. That's a change of that relationship. So God foresees a time in which a child is going
44:20
to grow independent of the home and that will no longer be a sphere of influence for the parent.
44:27
Now there's a continuing influence that we can have. We can exert godliness, an example, encourage,
44:34
find loving and wise ways to help them but they're going to grow independent. They're free
44:41
moral agents and once they are adults we we lose that direct ability. Now a child is then to honor
44:48
but it's no longer to obey their parents Ephesians chapter 6 and verse 3. Does that mean that a child
44:56
can't hurt their parent once they're grown? We know the answer to that. And does it mean
45:02
that a parent won't feel guilt over the imperfect way that we all inevitably parent? We certainly
45:10
are going to to wrestle with that and when our adult children are maybe saying or thinking or
45:16
feeling or living in ways that are inconsistent with scripture we can't endorse and validate
45:21
that behavior or that idea any more than we could with anyone else. First Timothy 3 4 was part of
45:29
the question that's not up on the board here that was asked. What about for an elder? How long is an
45:33
elder responsible for a child? And I think it really helps with the other information that we've been
45:38
saying. Paul leaves a man accountable for the children in his home. He is to manage his household
45:45
well. His children are to be in submission to him but those elders children grow up and their free
45:53
moral agents are going to make their own decisions. A child can be raised right and then go wrong.
46:00
That's not the elder's responsibility once that child has reached an age of maturity
46:04
and is making their own decisions. So all of that would point me to the thought that a parent
46:10
is responsible for the spiritually accountable for the choices of their child while they're in
46:16
the home and then after that that child is certainly completely and there's a graduation
46:21
of that where a child is growing greater in responsibility maturity. That's why some of our
46:26
children are baptized while they're still at home. There's a growing awareness they're
46:29
building their own relationship but there's a change in that when they leave the home.
46:37
Oh I guess all right well I would just say Neil didn't mention guilt and I would say
46:42
Isaiah chapter 1 God says I've nourished and brought up children and they rebelled against
46:46
me and in Isaiah 5 God speaks of Israel like a garden and he invites everybody to come and
46:51
check out this garden and he says I did everything for this garden that I could do and I thought it
46:55
would bring forth beautiful grapes but it's brought forth wild and stinky grapes in its place
47:00
and I think the point of that passage when you think about parenting at least I would say to
47:04
those of us in my position kids still downloading still at home give it everything we've got.
47:09
For those in the category where you would say well you no longer have the direct influence
47:14
and you may wonder about the spiritual accountability God's the best parent I know
47:18
and all of God's parents aren't always walking upright and God says can anybody just point it
47:23
out to me where did I go wrong he did everything for Israel and yet Israel went its own way and
47:27
sometimes sadly that happens and that doesn't necessarily bring comfort but I think it does
47:32
help us to harmonize this idea that if God's children can go astray with the perfect parent
47:37
then it doesn't always mean that a parent had to have failed or done something wrong or
47:42
missed the mark somewhere if free will people choose to go in opposite direction.
47:46
This is our final question for the night Hiram. Who is the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament
47:53
and is he the same as every other angel we read about in scripture?
47:58
The angel of the Lord is sometimes referred to in the Old Testament and sometimes it just means
48:02
an angel that belongs to God but occasionally that title the angel of the Lord deals with a
48:07
unique angel I'll say found in the Old Testament and this angel of the Lord figure in the Old
48:13
Testament sometimes receives worship sometimes uses his name interchangeably with God and it
48:19
leads me to see it as an individual that's separate from the other angels most likely a
48:23
pre-incarnate Jesus Christ before he actually came in the flesh and I'll just give you quickly a few
48:28
passages but when Abraham is about to offer up Isaac in Genesis 22 15 through 16 the angel
48:35
identifies himself as Yahweh and he interrupts what Abraham is about to do. In Exodus chapter
48:40
three Moses is at the burning bush talking to the Lord and then it says the angel of the
48:46
Lord appears and Moses is told to take off his shoes because he's standing on holy ground so
48:51
the context of wherever you find angel of the Lord in the Old Testament you just have to read
48:55
through and see is this an irregular angel who just happens to belong to the Lord or is this a
49:00
capital A angel of the Lord with some divine attributes and throughout the Old Testament I
49:04
think it's apparent that there is an individual that embodies this presence of the angel of the
49:09
Lord that's in a different category than the other angels and I'm not going to go through all
49:13
the verses but Exodus 3 would be one place Judges 13 21 and 22 where Samson's parents worship this
49:20
angel of the Lord and he receives it you can think about passages like Hosea 12 4 through 5 where
49:26
Jacob is said to have wrestled with the angel of the Lord and in the next verse Hosea says he was
49:31
wrestling with God in Genesis 31 11 and 13 the angel of the Lord says to Jacob I'm God who spoke
49:39
to you at Bethel and then in the very next hand he's the angel of the Lord so sometimes the angel
49:44
of the Lord I believe is a representation of Jesus in the spirit before he comes fully in the flesh
49:51
and he's a unique angel above the others that ultimately receives worship refers to himself
49:56
as Yahweh God and is different from the other angels that's the way I would answer that Neil
50:02
do you have anything to add along those lines well this is a great place for us to stop it's our last
50:07
question of the night but this idea of Jesus or the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament
50:11
I think a way to summarize this is to go to Hebrews 1 and just notice
50:14
in Hebrews 1 God spoke in various times and in various ways by the prophets through angels
50:20
through messengers but in the final analysis he speaks to us through his son not an angelic
50:25
appearance not in the spiritual appearance but in his embodied human form as the word becomes
50:29
flesh and dwells among us John 1 and verse 14 and what he says to us in and through his son must be
50:35
obeyed for us to enjoy and have salvation Jesus says he's the way the truth and the life and no
50:40
man comes to the father but through him and Jesus dies in our place as we talked about this morning
50:45
and when we turn from sin based on that belief and Jesus has the messiah confess him as the son of
50:50
God and allow our bodies to be immersed in water we receive what Neil mentioned earlier and that is
50:54
the gift of the Holy Spirit along with the forgiveness of sins God adds us to the church
50:59
and he'll bless our lives for the remainder of it and we'll have questions until we meet him
51:03
but the blessing is he'll be with us he'll be present and one day we will see him not in an
51:08
angelic form and a theophany but ultimately face to face revelation 22 and verse 4 and so tonight
51:14
if anybody needs to do that obey the gospel and view of who Jesus is with the hope of seeing him
51:19
face to face in peace we'd be happy to assist you in doing that if you've already done that
51:23
and we can pray with you or pray for you