Latest / Books4Guys / How to Give Better Feedback: Leadership Lessons Every Manager Needs | Katie O'Brien Ceccarini

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How to Give Better Feedback: Leadership Lessons Every Manager Needs | Katie O'Brien Ceccarini · Books4Guys

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I didn't I don't know why I didn't catch this before, but I saw like the very first line on your about me page says that you wanted to be in the FBI or a marine biologist.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Those are two totally different things.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: What what what made you want to be that growing up?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man, I think it was maybe fifth grade or something, a school field trip or whatever to Washington, DC.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we got to tour the FBI building and see all the like confiscated things.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, that's cool.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think I can do that.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then secondly, I have always loved whales.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought of, oh, okay, well, then I can study whales and all of that.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I get seasick.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that really didn't pan out so great.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really funny.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm uh I'm a big water guy myself, but I do get seasick.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, okay, I'll just stick to like the three foot deep part of the ocean.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the lake or the pool.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's so funny you say that about touring the FBI building.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I have a friend, and I don't know what he's a part of, FBI, CIA something, but I went to visit him one time in DC while I was there.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it was so cool.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: We like drove by the White House and he called a guy that was like guarding the White House.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I I saw him like talking on the phone to him because he was trying to get me a tour.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was just kind of last second, so it didn't happen.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I was like, man, that was pretty cool.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like that he just called that guy who's standing there in front of the White House gate.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, you know people.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so a lot of cool stuff there.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think anyone who uh as a young kid I could see were like wanting to do that, if you get to experience it would be pretty cool.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: But no, Katie, you've done some amazing things in a totally different direction, though.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of leadership that kind of organically happened, it seemed.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: I saw two, I didn't realize this, but you were the first account manager for Yelp, which I mean, massive company.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: I I was looking at Yelp like yesterday, actually, going through a lot of that yeah, for a review or something I was looking for.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: But uh No, and then now you you've got your book out, Fearless Feedback.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Everything managers have never been taught about feedback.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh very unique and uh I think a needed book.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of people, and I was looking through it, and yeah, one of the the things you talk about are people get, you know, they get promoted or pushed into leadership, and a lot of people don't get proper training, especially around communication with people that they're managing and how to give feedback, deliver it, some things that can come up, and just people don't know how to do it.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone's kind of like learning on the fly, even though we have like decades and decades of years of leadership.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: No one really seems to have a great training model for it or implements it anyway.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: But but Katie, share your story.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Where you know, your career, some of the progression behind it, and and you know, maybe why a lot of the roles you had, you ended up becoming a leader, and then just what led you to say, hey, I've got I've got something I need to share, and this is some feedback that needs to be put out there.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: My career actually started out in early education.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I was running tutoring centers for kids pre-K through 10th grade, and I did that for four years, and I was like, what am I doing?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: I studied marketing and history.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what am I doing in after school education?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, err, pivot.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and I joined Yelp.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was the, as you as you said, of the first account manager that was hired in.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I was doing all post-sales support.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: And within a couple of months, I had, you know, proof of concept of account managers retain business better than sales reps who also have a sales quota.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so that kicked off 10 years at Yelp, where I was first the account manager and then came to me and said, Well, Katie, do you know how to teach people?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Can you now train all the account managers we're about to hire?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that then is how I then transitioned into more of the training and enablement component.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I was there for 10 years leading global training for all of what became customer success.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then I wanted to get back to building.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I joined a real estate tech startup uh called Open Door in San Francisco, and I was the head of learning and development there and really focused on management and leadership development.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: But the the thread through all of my work has always been of no matter how busy I was, do not take one-on-one people development off my plate.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that then is what got me to start my own business, endurance management coaching.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So for the last six years, I work half of my time one-on-one with managers and leaders, and then the other half in in group sessions.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh what I came to realize was that more often than not, companies were coming to me with hey, help us have a high-performing culture, help us create a feedback culture, help us help uh get people to receive feedback better, which punchline there, you need also people to deliver it better, not just receive it better.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so many of my one-on-one clients, the bulk of our sessions would be, gosh, I've got to have this performance conversation.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: I need to give this feedback.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: How do I do that?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: So now, you know, years and years of doing it in practice, you know, two decades doing it in practice, then in my own business, said, you know what?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: There is not a book out there that gives you the how to.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Every other book is here's why feedback is important, here's why you need to do it.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not where people get stuck.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: They stuck with, this is gonna suck, this is gonna change our relationship, I don't want to do it.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Or how do I even broach the conversation?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm on a mission to make feedback less daunting and more effective.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I decided to write a book that's really focused on the how-to so it can be practical, flip it open, get what you need, have the conversation, and be like, Dane, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you've got me, you had me thinking about, you know, I've had a couple of roles where I've been a leader and I've had people I've managed.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think back to some conversations.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like I feel like I'm pretty easygoing, feel like I can communicate with anybody.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember certain conversations where all of a sudden, like, my heart's going 90 miles an hour, I kind of stumble and forget what I'm trying to say, and I had it all planned out where I thought it was gonna go perfect, and then I'm like, well, I did not deliver that good at all.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what the heck happened?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it is something that everyone's gotta practice and learn.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, it's not really a natural thing that a lot of people have.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that you wrote a book too, because you were talking about you do so much one-on-one coaching or maybe small group coaching.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's only so much of that you can do with your time.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're one person.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: But how cool is it that you have a book out there now that maybe different teams can can work through together cultures and like you can have an impact on so many more people now that you've got that out there, more so than just and people obviously can still work with you, but just you you're able to reach more people with this now, which is a really I don't think a lot of people think about that, but it you're able you've got something now that expands your reach in a in a great way.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and you know what's super cool is three weeks ago, I met with a team of managers that they all read it together.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: So they would break it up in chunks, so read, you know, three chapters, and then on a Friday morning, they would talk about those three chapters.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then when they finished the book, I joined them for a QA.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: My God.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: So now you have this team of managers that now has a shared language, a shared approach to having performance and development conversations and a new way to be engaging their people.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, of you know, I set out, I I set out to be on my own and run my own business so that I could impact more than just folks in the walls of one organization.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: So now to be able to have this book where now I have teams of managers that are like, you know what, none of us feel great with this.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: How about we do this together?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's incredibly rewarding.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad you brought that example up too, because I was literally talking with someone about this yesterday on like books as teams read together, how cool it is because sometimes I may interpret something a little bit different than someone else may, but having that conversation together of, hey, here's kind of how I learned from here, just how it opens up that, oh, that's okay, that actually sounds good.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's actually the proper what she was trying to portray there, or the lesson she's kind of or the approach she's wanted us to take.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: But like being able to talk things out with others is such a good thing, especially like when you're reading something as a team.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I can imagine those managers are talking amongst themselves, and then they got you to come in to say, like, well, actually, yeah, that's what I meant.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'm sure there's even moments maybe where they were asking questions and you were like, oh, interesting.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really like I wasn't really thinking that when I wrote that or put that in there, but I'm so glad you brought that up.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great take.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that that absolutely happened.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, so one I there are two questions that stood out from them.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: One was uh talking about, you know, because I my fearless feedback framework is you can say anything and preserve the relationship when you're operating at the intersection of a strong mindset, intentional and strong relationship that's trust and safety is there.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then your delivery.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is that mostly everyone only thinks about the delivery.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: What am I going to say?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: But they don't start with the what am I thinking?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're walking on eggshells into a conversation, you're not going to be communicating with conviction and confidence versus you go into a conversation saying, Okay, I have an observation that's going to help this person be their best.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now all of a sudden your delivery is better.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the first questions I got with that team of managers was, Well, what do you do when your mindset, like when you're having a hard time, like how do you practice strengthening your mindset?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I spoke a bit about it being a practice.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: You have to practice it, that you may not control your first reaction, but you are now a choice of how long you live in that reaction and how quickly you pivot to a new perspective.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a question that they brought up that was like, oh, okay, well, maybe second edition, maybe, maybe I can, you know, speak more to how do you make it a practice and a choice?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then another question was around the what do you do when they're not implementing your feedback?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a whole chapter on that.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: So for listeners of don't worry, there's a chapter on that.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: But then he was like, you know what?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like, you know, I I did what what a lot of what you have suggested.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And is there a time and a place where you just say what's up?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I was like, Yeah.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: But the problem is that most people are afraid of that confrontation and they're afraid or view it as a confrontation and then never do the hey, you know what?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I am so invested in you that I just gotta say, what's up?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: You're not implementing feedback, you know?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, so yes, be able to speak with groups of managers and have them poke uh poke a little bit more, but also more than anything, just of covered all covered all the things that they've never been taught and really receiving it as they're really grateful for the depth and the nuance that I covered.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's so this is so good because again, I'm thinking back to myself and I'm like, wow, yeah, if I would have just had like a stronger mindset of like, hey, this conversation is to make us all better, we're all in this together, like, you know, just dive into it.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I like when people do that with me too.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that more than like a roundabout where I'm like, hey, just get to the point, you know.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: But but yeah, you go in and you're kind of worried about like how they'll feel or what they how they're gonna take it instead of just saying, like, hey, here's the thing, this is you know, and going through it with a strong mindset, like you say, and everyone appreciates that.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that you brought that example to the table because that's like the number one thing I was thinking of.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, man, I was really strong until I actually got to the conversation and then it all fell apart.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and then then people default to what they've been taught.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: So about two weeks ago, I think it was, I was in Chicago.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So two independent insurance agencies put together a leadership conference and brought me in to do a workshop on managers as coaches.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you can't talk about coaching your people without feedback in the equation.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And one person said, Well, hold on, I was taught to give a compliment and then give the feedback and then give a compliment.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, someone taught you the poop sandwich.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about why that's not going to be most effective and helping someone feel engaged with your feedback, feel developed by your feedback, and feel like your feedback is helping their performance.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it was, it was an eye-opening moment for him when I realized or helped him come to the conclusion that poop sandwich doesn't work.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, I agree.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you brought that up too.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Katie, talk a little bit about, and I've I'm pulling up some of the stuff here because you talked about the fearless feedback model, but you've got some other things too: the HOA framework, headline observation ask.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then you've got the three types of feedback, the here framework.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like you've got different actionable things that people can like take notes on, think about for each situation.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Can you dive into just a couple of those and talk more about just like how you specifically designed each of those and what they're for?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna go in a little bit of a different order of where of the three that you mentioned.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, first is identifying the type of feedback, so the purpose of the conversation.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that is forcing you to pause and say, Am I addressing an instance, a pattern, or a role fit?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Most managers and leaders bypass that step.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: They don't pause to consider, well, hold on.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Am I just addressing something that happened?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Am I addressing something that actually is a pattern of performance or behavior?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: So then therefore that's actually a little bit more urgent.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Or is this now in the category of I'm not sure this person is a fit for the role?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: So your first step, so that's the first framework, and it's shaped as a pyramid intentionally, because most of your feedback should be this instance level, this base where you are just in real time addressing instances of performance behavior that you're like, you know, it'd be better if it wasn't that way.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: So and then it elevates your performance, and then your role fit conversation should be few and far between, frankly.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the first step.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Once you identify what is the purpose of what you're trying to address, is then putting into headline observation ask.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the delivery of your message.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: So the headline, so I'll just model what headline observation ask might sound like.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if I said to you of, hey, Chris, you know what?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm seeing an opportunity to set you up for more success in your role.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And topic I want to want to chat about is stakeholder management.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I can't help but notice a pattern when you're working with stakeholders that you're more passive than you tend to be.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not serving you and being an authority with these stakeholders.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to chat through what it would look like for you to step into your authority a bit more so that you're not as passive with these stakeholders that granted are more senior than you, yet you are their partner.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Are you down to look at that with me?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds great.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that that is headline observation ask.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So the headline is let me position it in a way that is highlighting your self-interest.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not leading with, hey, Chris, I need you to be less passive, or I need you to be better, or the business needs you.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's what most people get wrong.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not, I need to be speaking to your self-interest.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then I am asking permission and I'm coming with good intent.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: So you can feel like, dang, okay, she's here for me.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a headline.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Then the observation, a neutral description of what you have observed.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is there's no beating around the bush.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is you are direct with care.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then the ask is focused on now get to the action.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: This is where you put on your coaching hat and say, okay, let's talk about what would that look like?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: What do you notice when you're passive?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: What gets in the way?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: What would it look like for you to increase your authority and empowerment 10%?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: What would you do differently?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So the point being with the ask is that feedback without action is simply criticism.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you give feedback and you don't help people with a pathway on how to do it differently, all you've done is criticize them.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what headline observation ask is is all about.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'll pause there on those two frameworks for any follow-up.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, and I was thinking this is an odd way to think, but like as a former athlete, I was just thinking of coaches and how they deliver things and like how you receive that.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking of examples too, of just like how good, you know, like I played safety and I remember like a coach being like, Chris, you're strong, you're fast, you're not running through the guy with the ball hard enough.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can you can do this better.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can we work on, you know, in a way of like, can you allow me to help you get there?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because you can do this, and I want to coach you up and get you to that point.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, dude, yeah, like look at it.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, give it to me.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and leaders in in the workplace too, who've had the same approach, like, hey, you're you're a bulldog.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let me kind of can I help you fine-tune this because this is gonna help you so much more, and you're gonna see like this X of difference if you'll, you know, maybe try this.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, let me have it.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do I need to try?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so like those approaches are so impactful.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's why.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: So 2008, Google did it's uh Google Project Oxygen.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: So they set out to identify what are the top qualities of a good manager.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Number one quality manager is a good coach.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if there's nothing else we help managers and leaders do, it's to be that coach, right?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I had so the same group in Chicago a couple weeks ago, they were like, Well, how do I coach people that are better than me?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then I go to I'm like, let's talk about Michael Jordan, Phil Jackson, shall we?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like Serena Williams has a coach, like Michael Jordan, Aaron J, like name the top players in the world, they have a coach.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because the coach is invested in them, sees something else in them, helps them identify nuance, and then helps them identify what are the actions they can take.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So if that's what the best athletes in the world do, why aren't we doing that on an everyday basis with managers and leaders?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my mission.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that leads me to a good question because again, I this is so cool.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was having this conversation yesterday.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was talking about this.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, of all I've had so many amazing guests on this podcast over the last year, a lot of high-level leaders, founders, coaches.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And like the one thing they they all have in common is they're all still trying to get better.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, even though they have this book out or they've accomplished this, they're like, hey man, like I'm so glad you think I'm so great, but like I'm still learning.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm just sharing, you know, what I've learned.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it helps other people, but like by no means do I consider myself the end-all be-all of this.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I have a coach that works with me on this, this, and this.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm continuously reading and learning.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so those are but those are all the like all these people who are successful seem to have that same approach.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: I still need to learn, I still need to improve.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: The people there's the group that you kind of get to, and you probably see this in management, you know, specifically with your teaching and coaching, of sometimes you think you know it all, you've been there, done that, and that's where things get a little bit unstable.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Which leads me to my question for you.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when companies reach out and want you to come in and work at a corporate level and work with the group of managers, do you from time to time have to face that type of like uh confrontation with certain managers or leaders who are like just not receptive to what you have to say because they're like, hey, I've been doing this for 20 years, like I can get anyone to do what I want.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: But like, how do you approach that yourself through your work?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And like, how do you get that conversation over the hump to where you actually have some progress and they kind of see the light bulb of like, okay, I really appreciate what you're teaching me.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: I can see that now.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's that whole process and dynamic like for you in those situations?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the first thing is when I have clients that want to make the trainings required, I tell them not to.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't want someone who was there only because they were required to be there.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is that when it's not required, you get to see the cream rise to the top because it's the people who understand that it is an arrogant way to be managing and leading to think I've seen it all, done it all.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: No, you haven't.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: None of us have.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: And also, and that's then now going to the flip side is it will periodically have organizations say, Okay, well, we want to split split out the groups, right?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: The you know, senior leaders over here and the new leaders over here.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And depending on the topic, I will say, Hey, something to consider is to actually keep it a mixed group because it is fascinating how every time I have a mixed group, the more senior folks, yes, they will chime in with, oh, here's what's worked for me and here's what my experience has been, and beautiful.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's helping the more junior folks.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: But the more junior folks will ask pretty basic questions.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: That the senior folks are so disconnected and they have forgotten of, yeah.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like almost every time that I have a mixed group, everyone walks out being like, that was a good reminder.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I had forgotten about that.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've gotten so comfortable in my ways that I didn't even consider that.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I will say fortunately, I I have had few and far between where I've had people just, oh I will say that, and I'm thinking of one particular gentleman that I can vi visualize him right now.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: I won him over by the end.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I'm not your enemy, dude.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm here to make your life easier.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if you genuinely don't think what I'm offering is going to make your life easier, then cool.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: But give me 15 minutes.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I tend to win the over.
• 22:52
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Kate, Katie, from just your personal, this is kind of just like a personal question of just like your just what's been something that's so like the most rewarding of this.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I can see like obviously getting through to someone like that light bulb moment.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: You're, I'm sure that's like, ah, that's exactly what I'm trying to get you to.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like such a such a cool thing.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: But like work-related, family related, like what's been some of the highlights for you as you've built out your coaching and teaching and in this book that's come out?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: What are some things that you're just, I don't know, just super proud of?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I people don't get to like brag enough sometimes.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love for you to share, like, like obviously, you took a chance to create something.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: You left, you know, a safe corporate position.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I love talking about this too, because I think a lot of people, they're nervous to to take a step and leap, even though that's where like the greatest things are for a lot of people personally.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are some things that have meant a lot to you and that you're proud of throughout this process and journey?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think first I will say these are actually, I'm not gonna go in any particular order.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: So let me just go where my brain goes.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: First, I wanna I would say of the relationships.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: So the folks that I I got an email yesterday from she was probably one of my first five clients six years ago, and to still hear from clients and that, so how many of them have really turned into friends and and people that are just on on my kind of internal board of directors, so to speak.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the relationships have been really, really incredible.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: The what I'm able to model for my son.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we now he's almost eight.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really, really working on this motto with him of we are people who do hard things.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And for him to see the struggle that, you know, it's not always sunshine and roses, and it is really hard work.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I texted two of my sisters yesterday.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, the hustle is real, of you know, not hustle culture because I don't, I don't work, you know, a gabillion hours, but from the standpoint of daring to do hard things and modeling that and being really proud to show that for my son.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then being able to put on women's leadership retreats is you know, bringing like-minded women together and being able to talk and see in one another and be championed by one another and doing that in person in Boulder, Colorado, you know, definitely a career highlight.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say those are those are the ones that that kind of stand out of what feels really important and what I'm proud of with this work.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: I love the the do hard things.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I have a a buddy of mine, he's created like a whole company around that.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh in in a world of all this automation, there's still no replacement of just like good old-fashioned hard work and learning.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: And there's not a better feeling either when you do actually learn what you're trying to learn and you put in the time.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I talk about this like even with this podcast.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: I learned how to like you just simply recording and talking and then editing and how like how do I put it out there?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: How do I put it on the website?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like all this stuff I'm learning, and now I'm able to, when someone asks, I'm like, oh yeah, this is how you do it.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's still so much I don't know, but it's it's that diving in and figuring it out and just trying things.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just but again, those are the people that end up being most successful because they're not afraid to fail, they're willing to try, they just they jump in and they know it's hard, but hey, the alternative is nothing changes.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you can either stay stagnant or if you if you want something, you gotta go put in the work to get it.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: And well, and that that speaks to mindset back to mindset, right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Of like, when I started my business, you know, my husband, fair enough, was like, you know, effectively, you know, what what if it doesn't work?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: What if it what if it doesn't go go well?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And without missing a beat, I said, well, I don't fail.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, it's not that I don't struggle.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's that my definition of failure is quitting, is throwing in the towel prematurely.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: But what I have done, and the reason why I've never failed is because I pivot, I change course, I reevaluate, I learn, I stumble, I get up again.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And none of that is failure.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, same with going into feedback conversations of if your mindset is I'm gonna fail at this, well, you've already just signed the check on what's gonna happen.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it all has to start with how are you thinking about it?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then give you the tools to then do it.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: But with the tools without a healthy mindset around it, you're gonna be lost.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you've got me thinking of something.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: We've and we've gone off in a totally different direction.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: But something that I think is important because I I that's part of this podcast is people sharing their stories, you know, what it takes to get there, you know, as much as their work we spotlight, it's also the just the stuff you got to go through to get there.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I saw this yesterday and I was pulling it up on my phone.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: It says, if you knew you were a hundred rejection rejections away from your dream, think how excited you would be every time someone told you no.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: It just totally you were talking about like mind shift and how to think about things too, and people get a little nervous of doing things and even confrontation, you know.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, what if you could you could spin it different ways, but it just changes things where you're like not afraid to have things go south for a little bit because you're like, I'm one step closer to that becoming what I'm trying to get to.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's really cool to see your journey, uh just your career journey to where it is now.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a very cool and exciting thing to spotlight and highlight for for everyone who watches and listens to this.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: But Katie, I got one more question for you.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Please do.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: This has been fantastic, and this is a question I ask everybody.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Always curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally, and what is a book or two that you love to recommend to other people?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to recommend two professional books.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: So one is Daniel Coyle's The Culture Code.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if I could wave a magic wand and have every people manager and leader, if that could be their first book, incredible, because really sets the stage for how important creating safety and vulnerability within teams is, and particularly within um, you know, a stereotypically male audience of those feel like gushy words, but like, oh man, the way Daniel Coyle talks about like the Greg Popovich of the San Antonio Spurs, and that's one of the stories he covers in the book of no, this isn't fluffy stuff.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: This is what actually gets people to work as a team.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: So Daniel Coyle's the culture code.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: The second one is lesser known, but written by Julie Winkle Giulioni, and it's called Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that book is very practical.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: When I read it, I was like, oh, finally, finally, a book that really captures how to have career conversations with people in a way that is not this kind of like annual New Year's Eve-esque type of statement conversation, but like, no, this is the practical stuff you should be doing day in, day out to have really great, meaningful career conversations.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: So help them grow or watch them go.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Highly recommend as well.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great recommendations.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I no one's recommended either of those books before.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: So hey, happy to be a first.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Two new ones.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: But uh no, Katie, this has been this has been amazing.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for taking the time to do this.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, we're so proud to spotlight your work and uh everywhere else that we can.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: But no, excited to see everything you continue to do.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Love that we've met now.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and just keep doing what you're doing.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And there's thank you.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely no shortage of need for what you're what you're coaching and teaching.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: So wish you nothing but the best and and very much success.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Chris.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Such a pleasure to be here today.