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Music · Formed

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Formed.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: This will be our fifth episode, but our third looking specifically at corporate worship.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we want to do this fall.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's our formational focus this fall, looking at corporate worship, which is one of the ways God commonly shows us more of himself.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we want.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because as God shows us more of himself, our hearts respond to that with a growing love and affection and desire for him.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's the engine for it all.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we're exploring corporate worship.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm Eric, Eric Reeves.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm uh I'm on staff here as a pastor.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: My role is Christian Formation, and I'm joined by a special guest.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Eric.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: You recognize that voice?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Special.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Rex Gorman, who's our director of worship and liturgy.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um music and liturgy.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, that actually is a really important distinction.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: It gets slipped a lot, but yeah, it's music and liturgy.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and we might get into that distinction here in a little bit on this podcast.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: So music and liturgy, and our topic is music.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: So who better to have on than Rex?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: And Rex, I you are so thoughtful with this.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you have thought a lot about this already.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: How many years have you spent like in this field?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, if you count what happened in high school, uh if I don't know if I can count that as music, but it was pretty close.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that's been it's been 20 years, 21 years, almost 22 years, me being somehow involved in making music at church.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like leading music at church.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: I did choir a little bit before that, but like in terms of being a part of planning music, whether it's poorly or well or whatever.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, almost uh almost 22 years.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: So and you so you've been exposed uh to music in the church life in different settings, different cultures, different places um in the country.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe let's just start with this.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Could you give me just a brief history on like your involvement in with music, even just growing up, um, and maybe how you were engaged with it or didn't engage with it?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I grew up in Memphis, Tennessee, which is the southwest corner of Tennessee.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the pretty side, but all the good food is there.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I grew up going to a really big church, and so music was a big well-to-do, it was a big production, not the way that you think today, like with like screens and guitar solos and fog machines.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was like um the whole like special music thing, and there was uh and like during the offering or something.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, during the offering, there was some kind of sandy patty thing going on usually.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And uh there was a there was an orchestra, there was like an orchestra director.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a choir as well.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Choir was huge at our church at the time.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so music was a was a big deal at the church.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I was you know, I got in I we always sang.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I knew like singing was a part of it.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: My mom sang at home a lot as well, and we listened to music a lot as a family.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of it was Christian music, some of it wasn't, but most of it was.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Stephen Curtis Chapman is the real deal, uh, according to my dad.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: So saddle up your horses.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: We got a trail to blaze, man.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, so music was always present, and I I saw it as a thing.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: I knew it was a thing that we did when we went to what we called big church.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you when you sat in church, there was music.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Some of it was comprehensible, some of it was um, well, this is a little strange, and some of it was instrumental, you know, there was always the same sort of um same sort of uh post-lude music played by the orchestra as everybody left.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, I knew that meant it was time to leave, and I was like, sweet, we can go to lunch.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, mus music and some kind of music was always going on there.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um I kind of identified with it more starting in youth group when it was a bit more simple.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it was less, you know, I didn't know how to play a violin, I didn't know how to play cello.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there was a bassoon player, which do you know any bassoon players right now?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: If there's a bassoon player in our church, I beg you come talk to me.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Let's make this happen.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, there was so there was there was all kinds of orchestral arrangement, big productions like around Easter and Christmas and all that kind of stuff.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: So really big deal musically.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: But when it was more like stripped back, um, you know, with uh one of the youth interns playing acoustic guitar and singing with um the the female acoustic, the female not acoustic intern, youth intern, um, I was like, oh, this is something.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is different.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was a different kind of thing, but it was the same kind of deal.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're singing songs that were maybe simpler.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have put language to this.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: We were singing songs that were maybe simpler, um, that were more singable, where the lyrics maybe made more sense to me.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um more accessible?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: More accessible.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think more accessible is probably the right way to put it, yeah.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I liked that.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that was cool.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I had been musical as a as a kid.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't you wouldn't I wouldn't have been put that way, but I remember doing um in fifth grade at the school we were at, we did like a an aptitude test before you went to um the middle school.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So in lower school you did that.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it one part of it was for music.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like, hey, how you know what are you gonna play?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um are you gonna be in the band?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be in the choir, or should you do something else?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, should you you go do art or whatever?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I scored really high on all that again without really any kind of formal training at all.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just we sang and I sang at home and it was it was fun.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so when we got to uh I got to middle school, started playing, I wanted to play saxophone.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because saxophone is cool.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Did you know that's what I played?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: I did, yeah.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: You told me that because there's there's one in the corner up there.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at it.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um there was a clarinet, but in order to start with saxophone, you had to play saxophone, you had to start with clarinet.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And clarinet is not nearly as cool of an instrument.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you know that.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's like if you it's like it's like I don't know, it's like decaf coffee, if that makes sense.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Which, you know, is hard to make good.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um, so clarinet.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I'll play, I'll I can do that for a year.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I played clarinet for a year, and uh then I asked the band to teacher if I could play saxophone, and they said, Well, why don't you play clarinet for another year?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: I said, This is a ripoff, and got out of there, started to inquire, um, started playing guitar around that time too, just picked it up with some friends, and uh at some point in there uh the the high schoolers that were ahead of us, um, there wasn't anybody to to lead music for the high school.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, none of the high schoolers wanted to do it because some people graduated.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And me and some friends were like, well, we could probably do that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um someone asked me if I could uh play bass guitar, and I I said, I could probably do it.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I never touched a bass guitar in my life, and um ended up playing bass a lot.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, we that was kind of the first intro to music in that way in the church and making music, and we didn't know what we were doing, we were just doing what we wanted, and it was kind of fun, and it was really bad.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was uh but yeah, I'm really grateful for the opportunity we had for that, and then from there it's just sort of been stepping stones of like I would kind of disengage from church music for a while and then kind of get sucked back in, not in in a bad way, it would it'd be cool.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um ended up filling in post-college for someone leading worship uh at a college ministry, and um yeah, the college pastor came up to me afterwards, like, hey, can you come back next week?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that was kind of the first for me, like, okay, week to week, consistently leading music with with people, and that was um, yeah, so got God kind of opened a door there.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: I had kind of known ministry was gonna be something, but I I do remember after one of those nights at college sitting, I'm pretty sure we were we were married at this point, so it was but it was early in marriage if so, sitting with uh at with Kinse at a at a Perkins.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I remember Perkins.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Perkins, yeah.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was a terrible omelette.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: They used American cheese instead of cheddar without asking, and it was it was not good.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so um we were sitting there, and I remember looking at her and being like, I think this is what I'm supposed to do.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so not being really sure what the steps forward with that were or what that looked like.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and yeah, and then from there, um ended up following a call up to Seattle to help plant a church uh or help a church plant that was already going.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of became the second guy, so I was worship and whatever else uh needed to happen.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh from there, um went on staff at a church as the um worship and communications guy uh for you know seven seven years.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then now here I am.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of been weird, leapfroggy.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've sort of like backed into all of it.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: I it's not like I set out, I didn't get like a degree in music, I didn't do any of that kind of stuff.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I uh yeah, I it I was just kind of in in a spot and said, well, I could probably do that, and and now here we are years later.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm great, really grateful you're doing it.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's been a gift.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Just to say it's been a gift to be here.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um I kind of thought we were putting worship away.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just with a transition at our our last church, I kind of stepped into a role like yours, and it was mostly, I mean, looking back, it was mostly because it was what was available.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: We were kind of decentralizing stuff, and I was I had a hand in that, training up worship leaders and making that happen.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it kind of felt it didn't feel right, I guess.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: It felt less like moving into a new chapter and kind of more like burying a gift in the backyard and sitting on it.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, so I'm I'm grateful to be here to keep doing this.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is wild.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it I I do want to mention this real quick.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Your title does not have worship in your title, it doesn't, no.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Can't can you tell me the significance of that?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um well there's a there's an oft-repeated phrase, and that's that all of life is worship.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And in a sense, that is true.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh in a sense, all of life is worship.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would rather say though, like your life is a life of worship of something.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um worship is kind of our default setting.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a a guy, um, he is not a Christian.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: He he attempted at one point, David Foster Wallace uh is a writer from uh a little while ago, and he has a uh a little parable, a little speech called What is Water, where he talks about two fish that are swimming along the ocean floor, and another older fish swims by him and says, Hey boys, how's the water today?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they keep swimming on, and one of them looks at the other and says, What on earth is water?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think worship is sort of that.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Worship is um giving ultimate value to something.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it is it is the what our hearts desire most, and our life is going to be oriented around that.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: So worship is directing worship towards God, um, our worshiping hearts towards God is the goal of the Christian life, growing in love for God.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's the goal of the Christian life in general.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: That is intentional, that happens intentionally.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Music is a part of that.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um as the church, we have been singing for really since the beginning.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the faith that we came out of, the the Jewish faith, um was a singing faith as well.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at at scripture, um you read quit it pretty quickly in like Genesis 5 about someone, Jubal, who um kind of made he figured out how to make instruments, first of all.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: You don't get any any context of singing or anything like that.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: The first actual song in the Bible is Exodus 15.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's the song of Moses.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And funny enough, the last song in the Bible is Revelation 15, and it is also the song of Moses.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, interesting.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're different.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit different, different emphases, but it says that they join in the great song of Moses at the end.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of bookended.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: The story of Israel, the story of them coming into the promised land is bookended, and and you know, our eternal promised land essentially is bookended by by singing.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then singing is all over the rest of the Bible as well.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So singing is a big part of our faith for a a long time and for a lot of reasons.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: So um worship is not a part of your title, in part to communicate that what when we sing, that is not just what we mean by worship.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, it's something bigger, and music is an essential part of that that has been a part of our faith since the very beginning, like like you just described.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um So maybe just let me ask you this question.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh why why do you think that we do do music in our gatherings?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on that?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's there's a lot to that question.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think in singing um we uh we're joining something that's happening.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it the Zephaniah three describes our God as a God who sings, as a God who sings over us.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um He rejoices over us in song, is what it says specifically.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's uh talk in Revelation and other places of angels singing as well.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something about like what we're doing here that is that is uh you know, you've you've heard somebody say like practice for eternity, but there is there's a sense in which we're joining something going on.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Way bigger than just you.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Way bigger than just way bigger than just you.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um But really the reason that we sing in in a gathering, um, part of it's just because we're told to.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we get very little instruction on what a a New Testament church gathering should look like, but singing is mentioned pretty regularly in them.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at Ephesians, I think it's Ephesians 5 and then in Colossians 3 as well.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um they both talk about letting the word of God dwell richly as you sing, and they say singing songs, him spiritual and spiritual songs to one another with gratitude in your hearts.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um so singing is is prescribed there.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's also sing commands to sing all over scripture.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think fear not is the most commanded thing.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's like kind of an old devotional fact, but sing is right there.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Commands to sing, descriptions of singing, um, invitations to sing, if not direct commands, make up a huge portion of scripture.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: They're all over the Psalms, obviously.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then in other places they're they're there as well.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: So there's actually an invitation for us to sing, and I think we sing the reason we sing is is um well, I I usually I list a few things on Sunday mornings often.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: One is to hide God's word in our hearts.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um our God has has made our minds a certain way and knows um knows how they work.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it uh I often say Vince is a great preacher, you're a great preacher, Brock is is uh preached recently, and he's also a great preacher.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you're probably not repeating the points of his sermon to yourself over and over again as you fold laundry uh sometime that week.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um if we sing His Mercy Is More, or if we sing Um God is for Us, something like that, then you might find yourself humming that or singing that just to yourself.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's something about the way God made our minds that like the multi-sensory engagement of um music uh hides truth in our hearts in a in a very special way.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: This morning, uh to and to hammer your point even more.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: This morning I was reading Psalm eight to the kids, and the first line is, Oh Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name and all the earth.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And they just start singing the song that we sing here on Sunday mornings, to your point.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I I think part of it is to hide God's word in your your own heart.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: The other part of it though is to is to corporately confess things together.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we um we are a we would have what's called like a low church liturgy, and there's high church liturgy that it that is a lot more formal.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: We have liturgy, but well, we we would say that we just point out the liturgy that's there.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's a it's it's not high church, it's not very formal, it's a pretty informal liturgy.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: But in in a lot of high churches, what they would do is what they'll do is they'll confess a creed together at the beginning of a service.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there might be the Apostles' Creed, it might be the Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed, which is just truths about about what we believe in the Christian faith.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we we don't do that.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of like low churches don't do that, but we are are at least five times a week corporately confessing something together in song.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: So some of it is like to remind ourselves what we believe.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: But this is the cool part.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think a bigger part, and and this is one of the reasons why there's a lot of moments when I'm leading worship where it is instruments go away and it's just voices.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're actually here to encourage one another in the truth, not just to sing it, not just to hide it in our hearts, but to hear other people sing it as well.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's something about um well, I don't know.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's there are times when when a song is being sung, and maybe you have a hard time actually embodying that.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think like anything about singing with joy, you know, right now we just introduced a song called God is for us, um, and talks about singing with joy.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's hard for you.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what's going on, but but maybe there's someone in the congregation near you whose story you know, who maybe should have a hard time singing that, who's singing that with joy.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe, maybe it's even just hearing other voices around you singing things that that you might be struggling with or whatever.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: But hey, actually, this this almost becomes more true.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: This becomes more embodied, this becomes more convincing as you sing it.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because like you could, you know, you could go read um 1 Corinthians 15, and it's moving, talking about the resurrection.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like it really is.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: But at Easter, um, we very intentionally sing the last verse of In Christ Alone, you know, no guilt in life, no fear in death.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is the power of Christ in me.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: From life's first cry to final breath, Jesus commands my destiny.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: No power of hell, no scheme of man could ever pluck me from his hand till he returns or calls me home.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Here in the power of Christ I'll stand.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hearing the voices of the saints all say that together, all corporately say that together, um, undistracted by music, undistracted by anything like that, is really moving.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's really powerful.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Incredibly encouraging.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I've I've had that several times on Sunday mornings where I'm thinking through something, I'm wrestling with something, I'll just stop singing and listen to the people around me.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: It I I've I have definitely experienced the encouragement of that.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot it does.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think it hides God's word in our heart.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: It it encourages us in the truth.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: It helps us encourage other people in the truth, lets us speak truth over others.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think part of it is the Hebrews 3 thing where it says, like, encourage one another daily, as long as it's called today, so that you won't be uh ensnared by the deceitfulness of sin.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something to that even.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's there's a there's a corporate um edification that happens as we sing, as we help each other um remember God, remember God's presence among us, remember God's movement among us, the truth around that.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um the other part of that is I think it's just a joyful thing.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it engages, um, it engages us in ways that reading a good theology book won't.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying good theology books are are bad.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's some great ones out there.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's some out there that are moving in ways that are amazing.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I remember reading um, you know, Gentle and Lowly is one that we've got out there.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Reading that the first time, and he just hammers into your head over and over again something that you need to hear, and by about the third chapter you get it, and it is moving.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: But there's something about um the way our bodies work and respond to music as a purely emotional experience.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: It touches something different.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: It touches something different.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And some people will say that's bad, some people say, well, it's just emotionalism.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's wrong.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I think um it's a vehicle more than anything, and where you choose to take that is very important.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's one of the reasons we we really screen and really pay attention to what we sing.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is it actually beautiful?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is it are the lyrics good?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do they stand alone?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Are they edifying?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we we do that kind of thing because we know music is powerful.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: We know music is is a is a vehicle for change, it's a vehicle for you know, feel people feeling like like something is happening.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so we want to do that because God made music that way.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: We want to do that around truth.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, there's something, there's a part of you that it touches, whether you think you're kind of an emotional person or a musical person or not, there's there are there are things that you uh may hear um said from the pulpit or or said you know, we read in scripture or uh or read in a theology book that will they may they may hit in in good ways from those things, but it's gonna touch part of you in a way that that maybe is unexpected when it's set to music.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so music is in these various ways doing something for lack of a better with for us.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is an odd this probably I'm gonna phrase this awkwardly, but what does it do for God?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not the best way to say that.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, I know what you mean.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know what you mean, yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think well uh God has has made it clear, like if you read scripture, if you read what he's done, even like just the Psalm of Moses, uh the song of Moses at the beginning, he's talking about rejoicing in what God has done.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: He's delivered people, he's defeated his enemies, you know, he's thrown horse and rider into the city, into the sea.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Praise the Lord, the mighty warrior, you know, that kind of thing.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um so there's something about us aligning our hearts to who God actually is that pleases God.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like where hey, we're gonna say true, we're gonna say true, real things about God, we're gonna declare his glory.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Psalm 95, uh, it's talking about declare his or no Psalm 96, talks about declaring his glory among the nations.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's something about like the the public, out loud, embodied version of that that is pleasing to God.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Brings God pleasure.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: It brings God pleasure, yeah.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's kind of hard to wrap your mind around a little bit.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, God hears our songs, he's he's commanded us to sing, but he also hears our songs and he delights in them.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so what we sing is powerful, and you mentioned a little bit ago there is some responsibility and weight then in choosing what we sing and what we choose not to sing.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: There is, yeah.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um can you describe that a little bit, your process for that and why we sing certain songs, why we don't sing other ones?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I actually there's a document on our website um that talks a little bit about this.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have it pulled up, so I'm gonna go.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Off of memory as much as I can.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: How can somebody find it?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you go to the ministries page and then go to worship, it's actually there.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you can find it under, I think it's under the FAQs.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's a link you can get to.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you can't find it, just email me and I'll send it to you.org.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: But we focus on um there's three things.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: These were embodied very early on that that were kind of called like trend the transcendental virtues.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the the the true, the good, and the beautiful.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that was that was coming from um an understanding that God controls the world and is you know over all things, all truth is God's truth, that kind of thing.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I decided that that's a good paradigm to think through how we're gonna pick songs.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um I go true, beautiful, good.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so true, that one's it's pretty obvious.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, is this a true thing about God?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, can we root what we're singing in scripture?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh is there like very literally, like, can I find verses that embody what this is talking about?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be word for word.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, God there's something about in in in scripture, God tells us to sing a new song.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's cool.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like God wants us to say, hey, you know this truth.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Say it as many ways as you can.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's great.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't have to be like we are only gonna sing a song that is literally line for line, like scripture.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are traditions that do that, and that's in its own right very beautiful.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a guy in our church who actually grew up in one of those traditions, and he said he hated it as a kid, and he's so grateful for it now.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because they got that scripture in his head.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's there are some traditions that only do psalms set to music, word-for-word psalms set to music, which is cool.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyway, so we do true.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and from that is okay, is it is it true?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Is it rooted in in reality?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is it rooted in what God has revealed about himself?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is it precise?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is the other part.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one one thing in this on the document you'll you'll read, like we aren't in search.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: There are no perfect songs.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: If there were, we would only sing that over and over.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we like to ask questions of songs.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say perfect, I don't mean like there's no song that's gonna get at every aspect of who God is all at once.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we want a song to be precise enough that it is distinctly Christian.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if it could be sung at a Mormon um ward meeting, if it could be sung at um, you know, by uh a Buddhist or it'd be sung by a Muslim just because it's so vague about who God is or or what it is, then we don't we're gonna be really careful about about that song because we want we want very specifically to talk about who God is.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Part of that is like, is it Trinitarian?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big question.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, is this a song that um only addresses one aspect of God's work, or is it only addressing God the Father?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Is it only addressing the Son?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is it only addressing the Spirit?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Again, there's there's good in each of those, but we want to make sure that as we build out what songs we sing, there's a good diet across where people understand, hey, this God that we serve is actually triune.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's he's one in substance, but he he um is father, son, and spirit at the same time.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And there's something about the community of God in the God that we serve that's important to emphasize.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's other questions like that there on on like, is this true?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because we really, again, the music is a vehicle.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: We want to be careful with that.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: We want to get truth good, I always say I want to get good theology stuck in people's heads, and part of that is truth.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, beautiful is is the next category, and under that there's there's a bunch of headings, but the whole idea is is this music gonna stand on its own?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is it um is it singable?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's a lot of good songs that you have to be like a once-in-a-lifetime vocalist to sing along with.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and some of them, like there's some good Christian music, I'd say, that you could be encouraged by, but it is not really that singable for the average person.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um is it a a melody that is gonna get lodged in your head in a good way?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, are there musical aspects of it that are pleasing to listen to?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just like a um, you know, it's not a hay wagon delivering truth.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, actually, this is a a beautiful experience along the way.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: What does a hay wagon delivering truth mean?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, like a hay wagon, so you can have a song that is incredibly densely packed with truth that is clunky and hard to sing.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you've ever ridden on a hay wagon.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: You're from Iowa, so I imagine you have.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it is not a comfortable ride.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's not a suspension there.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's very bumpy.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's so when when I say that, that's me just kind of playing with words to say, like, we want we want a song, we want a song that's high truth to also be uh digestible because it's set to good music.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let me ask you, interrupt you real quick, and ask you a question related to this.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: There are some choruses that repeat the same thing over and over and over and over and over again, and some folks hate that, like on the opposite end of the spectrum.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: And yet at times we incorporate some of that.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: We do.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Before you go on, could you address that real quick?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, I would use a phrase, his steadfast love endures forever.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you there's two psalms in particular where that is actually repeated a lot.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's one where it's every other line.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have used that at the night of Thanksgiving in years past.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so we we following that model, understand that that there are some things that are worth repeating.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: There are some things that are empty repetition.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what Paul warns about.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, he's talking about prayer.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, Jesus, Jesus talks about in in in prayer.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um but then there's also things like, oh, actually, this is a good thing to repeat.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Some of that, too, um comes from I probably should have said this from the front.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: The way when I think about like what we're singing on a Sunday morning, like those five or six songs that we sing on a Sunday morning, I kind of use like a food pyramid idea.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like you want a good diet of everything.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: You want to look as a whole, let's look at all this.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Are we getting a good idea of who God is?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Are we getting a good idea of who we are, of what the gospel is, of of what our response to it should be?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so from that, but there's the other side of that is like, okay, well, if we're only singing songs that are just dense and wordy, then there's no room for us really to digest what we're singing.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like more like, hey, we're out of breath at the end of the song, then we're edified.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there are songs where both happen, and those are amazing.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: But there are some songs, one of my favorites, um we haven't we don't do here, it's called Come Behold the Wondrous Mystery.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a hymn by Matt Boswell and Matt Papa, but like uh it is just the story of the Bible, the story of scripture told beautifully, but it is so densely wordy um that whenever I would lead it at our old church, I would always follow it with something repetitive.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason is I wanted it to sink in.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to um, I didn't want to just do that and then move on to the next to where like we're sprinting through every song.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's like eating um eating kale every meal.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the kale is good for you, there's no doubt, but there's also other things that are also haven't have nutrients, maybe not as dense as kale, but they're also pleasing and they're also easier to di.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, mashed potatoes, oh my gosh, mashed potatoes are amazing.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Mashed potatoes are proof that God's steadfast love endures.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um no, so yeah, I I think repetition is a is a tool, just like other parts of music are a tool, um, and they need to be used well.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I I I do think we have precedent for that.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: If it's vain, if it's silly, then I'd say let's let's let's really think about what we're doing.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: But when it's something like his steadfast love endures forever, man.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the Hebrews never got tired of saying that, you know.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's let's not get tired of saying that either.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it kind of depends on what we're repeating, but also there's precedent for it.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Also, it's a tool um for for helping you grasp something.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay, I'll go back to the gentle and lowly book.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: His premise is the same for every chapter.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's that God's heart in Christ is gentle and lowly for you.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: You read that the first chapter, you're like, okay, cool, I get it.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you read that the second chapter, you're like, okay, man, fine.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then by the third or fourth chapter, you're like, you know what?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think God loves me a lot.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something about hearing, hearing something, hearing yourself say something, reminding yourself over and over again.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Again, the the psalmist thought it was important, so we can we can read back on that.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Which band is that, Rex?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about, I think, briefly.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: I really like them, but their songs repeat the same phrases over and over and over and over again.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember their name.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: They even came and toured here with Josh Gerrells years ago.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and their rationale that he said, this is this was novel to me at the time.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: He said, We repeat the same thing over and over again because I we need that repetition, like you're saying, to like convince myself again of what's true, like to get it into my bones.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first time I started appreciating the repetition.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know what band that is, but I I think I would agree with that.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's there's a certain amount of steeping.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you just take a tea bag and like you like tea, if you just dip it in hot water for a second, it's it's it's still water.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but leaving it in there for a while, letting it ruminate, letting it marinate, not marinate, but you know what I mean, letting it soak in there um changes it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's the same thing for us.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's but again, it's a tool.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's things we can repeat.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: There are some worship songs that um me and my old you know co-workers pastors would would send like over and over a line from Intext Best, just because it's kind of funny, and it's like this isn't doing a whole lot.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it does depend on the song and what's going on there.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you for letting me interrupt you.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: So truth, beauty.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and then goodness.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think goodness has more to do with looking at where our church is, looking at what our church needs, looking at our musicians, our our context, and asking, hey, what's gonna what's gonna work here?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think a good song um is a song that we could that will work in a like highly uh highly orchestrated, highly uh produced, if you want to use that word, environment, but can also strip down to like, hey, it's it's an acoustic guitar and and some voices.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think I think goodness in that is like, hey, how do we actually this is pedal to the metal stuff.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is less theory.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is more like, what are we doing on Sunday?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Does this actually work?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Can our can our people learn this well?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um is it um is it something that is versatile, like I said, that can be used in a lot of different because we have different instrumentation on stage week to week.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: So is it something that works there?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Does it have to have this kind of thing?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Does it fit our church in this season?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: A big thing I ask is does this song say something that one of our current songs says better?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Does it say it better than another song?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I see.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's some stuff where like I a song will come out and it it's um it's a similar concept to something else, and it's fine, but is it is it worth setting aside another song and and and teaching a congregation this so that so that this song can do some work?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yep.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I think truth, yeah, truth, beauty, and goodness.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: That those are the kinds there's a lot of questions on there, and again, the hope there is not to find perfect songs and throw away anything that doesn't meet the perfect criteria.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: The hope there is to really think about what we're singing.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, is like is this is this substantive, is this truthful?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is this beautiful?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a singable melody?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is it good?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Does it actually meet our church's needs right now?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or is this is this something that's more fun to play than it is to sing along with?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I my guess, I love all of thought intentionality for good reason, because like you said, music is powerful, it shapes us, what we're singing shape us, what we allow in our heads and our hearts and out of our mouth, all shapes us.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And my guess is that um a lot of people don't realize a sort of thought and intentionality that goes into the songs that we sing and don't sing.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: So really appreciate it.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: That said, like just FYI, I think there's a common misconception that that people who are in charge of music, worship, liturgy are are get tired of of asking people asking about songs.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: I really don't.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I enjoy it.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: I enjoy being edified by music.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's some stuff that I will listen to on the car on the way to church, um, but won't ever be sung from stage.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's fine.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, but I I think I think it's cool to explore, cool to listen, cool to consider in those ways.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: I found the band I was trying to think of.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: What was it?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to listen, the band, their name is Loud Harp.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, Loud Harp.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: I like Loud Harp.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've come to really appreciate it.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, here's here's another question.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what are some ways to engage with music on a Sunday morning that may be beyond just singing or not singing?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm thinking specifically like in the corporate worship.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: In the corporate worship.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I mean I think the main way is singing.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: I know so I know you ask other than singing.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think the main way is singing.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, there's there's uh there's a few unfortunately, I think sometimes singing gets put in in the category of, hey, this is for people who are especially spiritual or who are especially talented, um, or for who this is a fun thing.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe a little bit more emotional, maybe exactly, exactly.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I I think it's important that that we sing.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like honestly, that that's a way to engage, it's a way to embody it.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we can get stuck in our minds so much.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's actually something about physically like using your body to sing, because it requires a lot.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: It requires you to to breathe well, to support well, and it requires you to um to project well or or to to pay attention to those around you, even.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's something about actually the the discipline, the purpose of literally singing um that that it that works.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's something about joining in in one voice with people.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about this already, but I think that's a great way to engage.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you think you can sing well or not, exactly.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you, like, one of my favorite things on a Sunday morning is when I hear people who can't really sing all that well, but they're belt.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, I hear them all.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, you you being up front.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think it's you know, it is funny.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: We are told to sing a lot.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's a verse that comes up a lot, and it's make a joyful noise.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't I don't think yeah, I don't want singing to be put into this category of this is a thing that you have to be good at to do.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, I don't that there's nothing in that in the Bible.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're we're we're told, we're invited to sing, we're invited to rejoice.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think in in doing something with songs, and we you can we can get into this, doing something with songs or with musical worship other than that, it's just pondering, that's fine, but I do think you miss something by not singing.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: So again, my first non-answer to your question is really sing like as a norm, like as a norm.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's the general as a norm, sing.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I also encourage you to like think about it as we're singing it.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: If there's a phrase that sticks or that you trip over or that you're not sure what it means, investigate that.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like I'm happy to be a resource there, but a lot of these you can you can chew on, you can marinate, you can find in scripture.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, what what is this what does that actually mean?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I sing um, you know, you sing uh I'm trying to think of a good example right now.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's a song that talks about um Jesus being worthy to open the scroll, the root of David.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot there, yeah.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much there that probably is unfamiliar to a lot of people.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I but I would say like that's the kind of thing where if you don't understand something, like lean in or come ask, like, hey, where is that in the Bible?
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or there's so many good tools now um to find like, hey, what is this, what is like the lyrics, where does that come from?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I would encourage you like lean in and consider what it is we're singing to.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um don't let that detract from from um from singing, from from enjoyment, but like think through like okay, what does that what does that actually mean when I when I say that?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think of like here I raise my Ebenezer from the song Come Thou Found, the whole hymn, Come Thou Found.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a that's not a word we use.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: We don't use the word like is that Ebenezer Scrooge?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: Am I supposed to like read a Christmas carol right now?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: But like um, you know, doing some digging, you can find out like, well, an Ebenezer is actually a Hebrew word, and it means stone of remembrance.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's like what Jacob put up when he met God.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's what the Israelites put up when they cross uh the Jordan into the promised land.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something about like, okay, well, um, I'm raising, I'm I'm going back to this time when I encountered God.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's beautiful, but like that's not right there on the surface.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the other part is I think to engage critically, not in a in a not with a critical spirit, but to engage critically, thinking like, what am I actually saying?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: What am I confessing?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: What is this stuff?
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I think another way, and this isn't on a Sunday morning, but is to engage in the songs that we're singing, the songs that we have called ours as a church, um, not just on Sunday morning.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have some playlists available, Spotify.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think someone made one for Apple Music.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: I need to find, but if you're on Apple Music, you should probably just get Spotify instead.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we have uh that was a joke, but we have uh we have those songs available out there for for for you, for you to get more familiar with, for you to be able to embody and sing uh along with, if that makes sense.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: As you as I'm listening, I've never really thought about this way, I don't think.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um we have a number of people who uh are probably just don't enjoy the musical part of our gathering.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: They're probably there, like, give me the sermon, give me kind of the more didactic like part of the gathering.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: But if if what we're saying is true, I believe it is, this is rooted scripturally, that when we sing, the music part it doesn't only bring God pleasure, which is yeah, like the highest end, but it's also shaping us.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: And there's something about wanting to then be shaped in the right ways by the music that we're singing, which means engaging in the music that we're singing.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because otherwise you're leaving a gift on the table in a way.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that's I think that's that's what the language I would use.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're just you're you're ignoring something on the buffet.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um, like there's a good thing here for you.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and part of me, part of me, like with somebody that's like, hey, eat your vegetables, like that's important, you know.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: The other part is like, hey, there's potatoes are there for a reason.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I keep going to potatoes.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so sorry.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: I do love potatoes.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think you love burritos.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: I like I like both.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: I there's room in my heart for both.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but no, I I think that's just it.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's a good gift here.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's a I I don't want people to to willingly shut themselves off from a way that God has said he's going to shape them or speak through them.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um like Paul, you know, I go back to Colossians 3 a lot.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Paul talks about in our gatherings, like that's one of the ways that we let the word of Christ dwell richly in our hearts is by singing to one another.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um we think of that often.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: We think of like, okay, I'm gonna like focus intently on the word.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: We think, okay, I've got a Bible open, I've got a concordance open, I've got a commentary open, or I'm listening and I'm taking notes with with Vince's or Eric's sermons, and that's true.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's part of it.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: But you're actually you're missing a part of what what Paul has said, and I think what um what the the the Hebrews would say as well, of like you're missing a part of of being together, of of joining together in worship.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's less of an this might sound too harsh, but it's really not an optional piece of our corporate gathering.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so I think it's like anything.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um optional is a weird way to put it.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: It it is, it is, we're invited in.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's parts where script where scripture says, sing, like sing to the Lord.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um But I think you're actually like You're missing out, is what I would say.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a better way to put it.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're missing out on something.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think of man, um I think of Psalm 103.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Psalm 103, it's like, bless the Lord, oh my soul, and forget not his benefits.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's but that that that refrain is there, like, bless the Lord, oh my soul.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't feel like singing.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: But he knew, like, hey, actually, it's good for my soul to bless the Lord.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: And funny enough, David turns that into a song, but like, there's something there like in speaking to yourself.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, we're actually you're missing out on something by not engaging here.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that that's where my mind goes.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I'd say.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say you're you're missing a really good gift.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um in saying, like, hey, this isn't my aptitude, this isn't my I I think you're closing yourself off to something that is good that God has for you.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: I want to read this question that was sent in to us.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um We may have already answered this, but I want to read it and see if there's anything else that you'd want to say to this, Rex.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the question.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to hear more about the theology of worship and how to have a solid foundation for a good theology of worship and liturgy and what that looks like in a corporate setting as well as in personal devotional time uh and day-to-day life.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else that you'd want to mention in answering that question, Rex?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think again, assuming when they say like a theology of worship, they're talking about more like a theology of praise, like of music, of musical worship.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think either way, my answer's largely the same.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we'll talk more about this soon, but there's um there's a certain flywheel effect in continuity of worship that that comes from contextual worship.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd say we worship um one God.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard I can't remember where I got this.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's some like paradigm.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like one, two, three, worship one, two, three, worship one God and two audience, and two two contexts for three audiences.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: So one God, we worship God, obviously, two contexts gathered, scattered.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: The three context, the three audiences, obviously, God.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: God is we're is the one that we are praising.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um other people in the church as well are actually an audience, and then the watching world isn't is the third audience.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something there.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: For the contextual thing, though, um I think it's really important that we we have rhythms of devotion, rhythms of uh worship, of praise.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I think singing can be part of that.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think Um, and I'll talk more about that in just a second.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that if if you're only worshiping once a week, if you're only coming on Sundays, and this is the only time that you're expecting to hear from God, what that does, that actually that makes you picky.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: It makes you kind of uh kind of like squinty, squint uh squint-eyed about things like, well, this wasn't exactly what I wanted.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or man, I wish we had done a different song.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or man, I wish this person over here who can't, you know, carry a tune in a bucket um would would be quiet because I'm I'm trying to worship.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um versus if we are worshiping day to day, if we're feasting on God's word, um, if we are you know meeting him in prayer, and and if we're even like praising him with music every day, I think it becomes a feast.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like think about like Thanksgiving.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanksgiving is usually a giant feast, but you eat more than Thanksgiving.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you didn't, you'd be at Thanksgiving, you'd probably die.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: But if you were just eating once a week, even, um, you'd be probably like elbowing people to get to the mashed potatoes.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: We're there again.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, versus if if you are eating every day, then a feast is just for enjoyment.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's there for you.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, man, we're gonna we're gonna imbibe on good things.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's you know, the church is more than that.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: The church gathered is more than that.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I think worshiping um day to day, week to week, uh as you go, actually prepares your heart for worship more when we're together.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, similarly, I think that's also the reason why we gather, because if you never gather, then you're also gonna kind of go off onto your own thing.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's something about all the the plural words that are used.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when Paul says, Let the word of God dwell richly in your heart, he doesn't say your heart, he says your hearts, and that's the the Greek word for y'all.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's the the plural you.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: He's saying like there's something about being together where we correct one another, where we encourage one another, where we spur one another on to good works.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's all over his writing.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if we if we don't ever um gather corporately, in the same way, we're kind of elevating our preferences.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something about that that actually is a flywheel that helps us grow um, yeah, helps us grow better.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, worshipping scattered, worshipping gathered is really important.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: As far as what that looks like, I think that can be a lot of things.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, you can certainly use song in devotion.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if there's a necessarily a right or wrong way to do that.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say like if if there's something, if there's a song that is is saying something better than you can in in your own words and are in prayer, that man, sing that loud.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: Go for that.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: We um we have a pattern of family worship at in the Gorman home where we uh we sing nightly.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we we do it's a pattern, it's from uh a book we read a long time ago.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just read, pray, sing.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's also in the preparing for worship website, but read, pray, sing.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we will read a part of scripture, we'll pray, and then we we have hymnals at home and we just open them and we'll turn to the next hymn that we know and we we sing it for a week and then we move on.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something there though, I think in that again, just as there's something there for uh for you in um in the corporate gathering with uh emotional connection, with um ease of repetition of that kind of thing, there's something there for you individually as well.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if I have good notes other than like, hey, I think it's I think it's good to do.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think it's good to listen to music that will edify you.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: That could be in the car on the way to work, that could be by yourself in the morning, that will um again spur you onto good good works that will hide God's word in your heart, that will remind you that you are part of the body of Christ.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's beautiful.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: So related, you mentioned this really briefly, a resource that you have put together weekly to help prepare for worship here is like the songs we're going to sing in some of the passages.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: How how does somebody access that?
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: So if you go to our website, um, I think it is just right under resources.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: One of the first ones is preparing for worship.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's also at the bottom of the top three things every week.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you can find the link there.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and what it'll have, it'll have the scripture for the week uh in full.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you can read that uh without having to open a Bible.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just right there.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: I copy and paste it.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's a prayer.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's usually a prayer that's based on a few pieces of scripture.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this week, uh particular week that we're recording this, it's around uh John chapter one and Psalm 119, talking about God is light and the light that that that um that comes as God's word is opened.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then after that at the bottom, there's a list of the songs that we're gonna sing.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and the point there is so that um you can consider them more, so that you can kind of embody them more if that makes sense.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um we want we want to worship in spirit and in truth.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there's part of it where it's uh, you know, there is an emotional part of hearing it live, of singing it live, of singing it with people.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also there's a chance for you there to ponder music ahead of time, to get familiar even so that you can sing more.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: All right, I want to hit some questions that I suspect people may be thinking but have not actually voiced.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, here's it.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're just gonna kind of run right through these.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: Here's here here's the first question.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: What if I really don't feel like singing on a particular Sunday morning?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: How can I approach the music then?
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think I mean part of that is um you know, I mentioned Psalm 103 earlier.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think there's there's something where uh I'm not gonna say you have to.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm never gonna say that, but I am gonna say that it's good for you even when you don't feel like it.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's something about um about the the practice of of saying true things about God, of of embodying those true things about God by singing them, um of of of confessing them corporately that is helpful.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, there there are times again where like I I don't feel like drinking water and I don't feel like eating a meal, but I know it's gonna be good for me.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are times when I come in and uh you know, if there's an upbeat song that's about the goodness of God and the joy of God, and I come in dejected, sad, uh tragedies happen like that.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's still true, regardless of what I'm feeling.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying to set your feelings aside, but I am saying it could be good for you to remind yourself, like, okay, God is good even when I am not engaged, God is good even when I am not feeling it.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, God is good and close even when he feels distant.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think yeah, looking at it as a gift as a gift to be grabbed, as a gift to be taken, um and not like an obligation, kind of changes it changes my attitude about it.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it does for other people, but if someone didn't didn't feel like singing a certain day, I I would I'd encourage him to do it anyway.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um Yeah, there there's something about about that repetition again that we talked about, like okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna put reps in with his steadfast love endures forever and eventually it'll break through.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I think it's something even similar to when we don't feel like let's say reading God's word.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's not justification to not read God's word because the very thing that you need is to do that in that moment regularly because that shapes your heart and your affections.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so with music, let's say I come on a Sunday morning, I don't feel like singing because, yeah, like you said, dejected, something tragedy in my life, um, stressed out, whatever it is.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's another aspect of this too, and it's not simply to ignore what you're feeling and just try to shove it to the side so that I can engage in worship, but to interrogate that.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think there's something about recognizing what you're feeling, asking the question, why am I feeling that way?
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is it that's going down in my heart?
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then bringing that to God on a Sunday morning in the worship because that that likely is the very thing that He's desiring you to notice and to bring to Him there.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than avoidance or ignorance, like, yeah, okay, you don't feel like singing.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's true, that's reality right now.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's bring that, let's bring that to God and still in the worship, worship gathering.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: It may look a little different.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you may do more listening that morning than singing, yeah, but that's very different than not engaging.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's it's good to invite, again, the the the church gathered, gathers um not just because we picked a day and this is the right thing, but it but it gathers for the use of gifts as well.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think other people are a gift to themselves.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: So even just like bringing other people into that.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, I'm having a hard time singing this morning.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm not sure.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, will you will you pray with me if you're if you're interrogating that, if you're wanting to know why, um, and I think you should, then then I'd say that that's a gift as well.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I my my main thing is that, like, hey, let this is a gift for you.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's figure out how to not leave that on the table, you know?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: Here's another question.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I can't sing well.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's not a question.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: I guess that's more of a statement.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: Sing anyway.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I love it.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: Belt it out.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: Both of us, yeah, both of us have said, and I and um I mean everyone, everyone on on our, not everyone, but a lot of people like on our staff, especially among the pastoral team, like we hear people who who are just way off and sing so loud, and it is glorious.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm one of them half the time.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: I actually apologize sometimes to the people in front of me.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, that's what you could sit up front.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, I'm just kidding.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, no, no, um, I I agree.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think like God is is is pleased with that.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: God's not looking for like quality, he's not looking for a certain key, he's not looking for a certain whatever, he's looking for like our hearts, yeah, you know, and and I think you can do that regardless of if you have a quote unquote good voice or not.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think most people sing better than they want to admit.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that's also the reason that it's not a solo for you.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're doing this together, we're all singing.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I I assure you, it it probably if you can't sing, it's probably bothering you more than other people.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I would encourage you to sing loud.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: Just go for it.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: Here's another question.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: How do I worship successfully when we're singing?
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do I know that I've done it right, so to speak?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think a lot of that is gonna be I don't know, a lot of that's gonna be more subjective than uh objective.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I can't look at you and say, like, you worshiped well, you get a gold star today.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: Here's some mashed potatoes.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're I I th I think in general the the questions I would have, and the again, these aren't necessarily um saying you you've done a bad job, because I think worship is going to do something.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: But let's say, let's say you um I don't know, I what it where where where's your mind, where's your heart as this is going on?
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um is this is it on lunch?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um is it on, well let's get through to the sermon.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd say that there's probably like if if that's the case, if you're if you're not in if you're distracted, you're probably not engaged.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I would call that again, success is a weird word.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I'd say like um that's probably not ideal.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's different if you're distracted by, you know, we talked earlier.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: Are you distracted by tragedy?
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: Are you distracted by um some heartbreak?
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is something weighing on you from God's word, from the sermon?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think it's unsuccessful for you to um have your mind on that as you're as you're singing, as that's going on.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: For me, like, yeah, I can't point to one thing like this was the success.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think engagement though looks like looks like focus.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: It looks like, okay, are you are you are you are you not just reading words, but are are you are you uh taking these words and and offering them to God as as the truth that they are?
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean hopefully in our context I would say like we've we've added stuff, but are you taking these words and and and doing them?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like yeah, so the gauge isn't necessarily am I feeling a certain way?
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or you know, did I sing, did I hit the high note?
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: Did we yeah, whatever.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: And did I like sing every word?
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: And though those aren't the gauges.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: But more of a heart, heart posture.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: Are you are we ascribing to God the worthiness of who he is?
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: Even with different emotions and different challenges we might have.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm gonna ask you one more question, Rex, before we wrap this up.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: I worship God more readily.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the question.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: I worship God more readily in different ways than through music.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's through study, maybe it's through something else.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: So what about me?
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean Does that mean you only worship God through study?
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: I gravitate that way, I'd rather let's say I'd rather do that every time.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just gonna kind of get through the music part.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in that specific case, I would I would I would ask why.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is it because you're by yourself?
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is it because it's it's more in your control?
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is it because uh yeah, you can pick it up and put it down as you want to?
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean that to be mean, but but there is something about there's something giving and coming and singing and worshiping together.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: So in that specific case, I I might I might press there, be like, well, is is there a reason for that?
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the other part of that is like it's not it's not binary, it's not on switch on, switch off.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think, yeah, that you can you can worship in a lot of ways, but singing is one of them.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Singing is one that we're actually called to do.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the one that we're invited into, it's one that we're told to do as we gather and worship.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: So part of it is like, okay, that's fine.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're you're allowed to have preferences, you're allowed to enjoy other things, you're allowed to have other aptitudes.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: No one is saying this has to be your favorite thing on earth.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: But what we are saying is that, hey, there's something offered here that isn't offered when you open a commentary, when you open a a um, when you open a Bible study, or when you're when you're out in nature um like looking at beautiful creation.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: No one is saying that isn't a worshipful experience.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what we are saying is like, hey, there's a very contextual, intentional worship experience that we get to take part in together.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of it is laying aside preference, aptitude, whether that is, you know, I am bent this way or hey, I sing really well or I don't sing well.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is an opportunity for us to kind of lay that aside, and we're gonna all in one voice uh worship God, our Creator.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I um yeah, I would say again, you're leaving stuff on the table.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: And back to the purpose of worship.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: One one place I often go, I didn't hear, is Psalm 95 and Psalm 96.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: Psalm 95 and Psalm 96, I don't know if I have time to read them right now, but they're they're very similar in a lot of ways.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh let me pull up just the first part real quick.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: Psalm 96, Psalm 95 is, Oh, come, let us sing to the Lord, let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation, let us come into his presence with thanksgiving, let us make joyful noise to him with songs of praise.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: For the Lord is great and great above all gods.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at Psalm 96, similar, oh sing to the Lord a new song, sing to the Lord all the earth, sing to the Lord, bless his name, tell of his salvation from day to day.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: So they're very similar in those ways.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: But there's actually very purposeful reasons that we come to worship.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: One is to remember.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: Psalm 95 starts very triumphantly in that way, like worship the Lord, but it very quickly turns and it ends very dark.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: It says, Um, for he is our God, he we are the people of his pasture, the sheep of his hand, but then it says, Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as at Meribah.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um for there it's like it's kind of a weird, hard, hard end of a very joyous song.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: But what God, what what the psalmist is saying is like, hey, remember.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: Remember who God is, remember who you are.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to do with preference there.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like remember why you're here.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the reasons that we're here, he's he's referencing uh when Moses struck the rock twice instead of speaking to it.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: A rebellious time, a rebellious generation, a rebellious prophet, even.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, they were serving a real good God, um, but they were not faithful because it's because they forgot what he had done, they forgot his works.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: So part of it is to come together and sing and experience who God is.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: The other part, Psalm 95, uh 96, says, declare his glory among the nations.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: Say among the nations, the Lord reigns.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, the world is established, it shall never be moved.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: Let the heavens be glad, let the earth rejoice.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: So he's talking here about like, hey, he's we're worshiping actually not just to remember, but also to be equipped for mission and to actually display who God is to the world who's watching.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I I agree, like, there are aptitudes, there are things that are worshipful.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's amazing.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_00: Suns sunrises and sunsets um out in nature, out in the mountains, are one of the most glorious things ever.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_00: But they do not specifically tell you to remember who God is.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: They do not specifically to tell you to remember um what he has done.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: They don't specifically display his glory to the nations directly.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: They do in a way, but they're not word for word saying this is the God who made this.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: They communicate something, but nothing.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: But we this I think gathering and again, singing is part of it.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: Worship is a big thing, but like singing is part of it.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: We sing to remember, and we sing to witness as well.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: And there's there's stuff you you can do that other places, but this is this is a a prescribed thing for us that we we come together, we let God's word in our heart dwell richly as we sing, and it's for our benefit, and it's for the benefit of the watching world.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's just not replicatable other places.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: You might get an emotional I mean, there there are times like when you're again you're reading you're reading scripture, something hits you a new way, it is an emotional, it can be an emotional experience, but it doesn't have the same um holistic thing that coming together in corporate worship does.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: So for those of us who prefer to worship or more readily worship through study, great, yeah, that would connect, keep going.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we have those.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think, but what I'm trying to communicate, so that was a long ramble.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm trying to communicate is that there's something specific here that is also really good that we're called to that other things cannot accomplish.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense?
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: So still engage.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_01: May not be your favorite.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: Still engage.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: May not be your favorite.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: Kale's not my favorite.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: But mashed potatoes are mashed potatoes are great.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me, Rex.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, man.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: That was I thoroughly enjoy that.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: I hope our listener does.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: My hope is that it raises some appreciation for what happens on a Sunday morning.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um and even some engagement.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: And one last thing, I have been described as uh rabidly extroverted.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have questions about this, I'm happy to love to engage with them.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to engage with them.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: Rex at the townchurch.org.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: Next week we're going to look at some more questions and topics sent in.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to look at Sabbath, um, women in ministry, uh personal value around what we do or who we are.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna engage in some great things next week.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hope you can join us.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.