Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 734: Asking Is The Medicine with Dr. Aimie Apigian

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Episode 734: Asking Is The Medicine with Dr. Aimie Apigian · The Trauma Therapist

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Or welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
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My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible cells, to be human,
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to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
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who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
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authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more
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about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com.
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That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started. So five four
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three two and one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast. I
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am very excited to have back doctor Amy at pigion Amy, welcome back.
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Thank you so much excited to have you back. You know, last time
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we spoke, well the first time we spoke, you know, you just
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you just get it. You just you just I just get this feeling like
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this person, you just are on fire. You're passionate, and that's what
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I love about you, and that's why I wanted to bring you back.
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So we'll get into the I don't know, I don't know very many other
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people guy like you and me who love to talk about trauma. I think
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that does make us unique. Well, yeah, maybe that that's what it
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boiled down to. So. Doctor Amy is a board certified preventative medicine physician
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with a master's in biochemistry and a master's in public health. She's an author,
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speaker, and founder of Trauma Healing Accelerated LLC, as well as family
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challenge camps, and host of the bio Optimized Summit. We're gonna talk about
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that. After a few years in a general surgery residency in Portant, Oregon,
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she decided to for forge her career path as a trauma, attachment and
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addiction medic and physician. She believes the healing journey can be accelerated through evidence
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based tools and approaches to rewire the nervous system and the effects of chronic stress
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and trauma on the mind and body. Having both parent to children with effects
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from trauma and attachment issues, and then having her own health challenges from chronic
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stress and traumas, she's intensely invested on finding what actually works practically on how
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to restore the body to its highest potential for health optimizing biology. Welcome back,
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Thank you so much, guy. I'm ready to dive into our topic
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today, all right. Before we do that, remind our listeners where you're
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from originally and where you are now. I grew up in Washington State.
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I was actually born not too far from the Canadian border over on the eastern
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side of Washington, central eastern Washington, and have since located to southern California,
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but also halfway between here and central Mexico, where I've been building a
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home and retreat center. Wow exclamation point. So you're building a home and
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retreat center? How cool is that? Yeah? You want to come?
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Let's yeah? Seriously? Yeah, no, I'm serious? Yeah? Do
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is that going to be up and running? Well? I have started to
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live there when I go down, and so I'm looking at being able to
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host groups and workshops by the end of this year twenty twenty three. Wow.
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Exciting. So well, let's touch on you know, you said you
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you loved talking about trauma and stuff. What is it about it that gets
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you going? If we can use that? So it's so misunderstood and there's
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so much that we can do about it misunderstood. How one of the things
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that happened to me, and I know that this happens to a lot of
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other professionals, is that we get misdiagnosed with being stressed or having chronic stress,
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when it's actually a trauma response in our body. And so we're being
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given the wrong diagnosis, if you want to call that a diagnosis, And
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so we're given the wrong tools. We're told to go manage our stress better
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and thus to do stress management tools, not realizing that that's going to miss
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the mark if we're actually working with a trauma response that continues to play out
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in our body. And so it's so misunderstood because people think of trauma as
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oh, this big event in my life and whether I had it, whether
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I don't, And it's not that like the body will continue to live from
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this place of trauma without us ever knowing it, because we're still focused on
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some event that happened in our past, not realizing that no, like this
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is our present moment experience and our present moment biology. So just to recap
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a little bit clarifying corrept if we're wrong here, So you're saying that many
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times, oftentimes a lot people misdiagnose misdiagnose it because they think it's a singular
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event. But in addition to that, are you also saying that it trauma
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can be viewed on a continuum like stress on one hand all and then on
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the other end of the continum is trauma. Yeah, so trauma actually does
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happen on a very sequential process, So you have to go through the stress
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response to have a trauma response. In fact, the definition of a trauma
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response, if you look at it in what's happening in the body and the
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autonomic nervous system, is that the stress response gets overwhelmed or else the person
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would be able to stay in that stress response and they would be staying in
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a very active place. And so just to walk through that trauma response,
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you initially have a startle. So we always have a startle to whatever is
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happening, even if it's a noise that turns out to be oh, my
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kids drop the toy or whatever. The door slammed unexpected, and we feel
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that little startle. We get this little burst of energy, but it doesn't
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take us all the way into that stress response until we see oh no,
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no, like the kitchen stove is on fire, this is something serious,
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and then we move into full stress response, which is the sympathetic and that
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sympathetic is there to move us to action. And so the way that it
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does that is it sends out this burst of adrenaline rushes through our body.
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We can often feel that surge of energy that comes from that adrenaline rush.
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Our heart races, our breath quickens. It's a full body response to be
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in that stress response. But the whole intent guy, like the whole neurobiology,
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all of the chemicals, everything involved, is for one purpose and one
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purpose only to take action. And so when we are in that high energy
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state, and it is the highest energy state that we have as a human
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body, and this is why some people will intend stress themselves out where they
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may become adrenaline junkies in order to feel most alive, because it is true
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like this is when we feel the most alive. And I've seen people do
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this create stress in their lives. I've worked with a lot of kids who
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have significant attachment trauma and watch them literally create drama. And it's you know,
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it's fascinating to see this stress response can be so familiar to some people
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that they need to create it in order just to feel normal in their day.
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But when that threat or danger, whether it's emotional, psychological, physical,
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it does not matter. There's only one stress response, and there's only
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one trauma response in the body, and anything that for any reason at that
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time in our life overwhelmed our stress response and its ability to take action.
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If it gets overwhelmed, the body goes into a trauma response, and it
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literally takes that adrenaline, which is like having our gas pedal all the way
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to the floor, and it's like throwing on the emergency break. So your
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foot can still be on that gas pedal. It doesn't take away the fact
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that there might still be this adrenaline surging through your blood and your tissues.
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But you have just now thrown on that emergency break. Your car comes screeching
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to a halt, your energy drains, and guess what, like you stop
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taking action. The whole purpose of this frieze response, this trauma response is
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to collapse, is to stop, is to not take action, but instead
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conserve energy so that we can hopefully survive this thing. But we can only
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get into that trauma response going through the stress response, because it's the stress
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response itself that gets overwhelmed, leading a person and their body into this trauma
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response. And so then what happens is that the body without resolution and being
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able to complete that cycle. It now kind of gets stuck in going into
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this freeze response, and then people start developing diseases over time. They start
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noticing that they have low energy all the time, they start noticing that they
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have sleep problems, chronic digestive problems, they have all of these downstream effects
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on their biology from their trauma response still playing out in their body. Well,
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and yeah, a couple of things just quickly came to my mind as
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you were talking. One is, you know, you talked about adrenaline junkies
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and remind me of combat vats who come back and they're like lost, and
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a lot of times they are seeking that not just a chronomy, but the
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the adrenaline of the combat theater in a sense. Wow, what a thank
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you for that really illustrative diagram of what's going on with the trauma response.
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But also also you're talking about all these other kind of downstream effects that people,
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you know, physicians or whomever are looking at and then not being able
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to connect the dots. Give us an example of what that looks like of
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how things are misdiagnosed. Autoimmunity, chronic pain, chronic fatigue, Each of
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those are classic examples of a chronic freeze response in the body. This is
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the dorsal vagel response continuing to play out now over time, usually over years
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and years and years, and eventually it changes the biology of a person,
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causes enough baseline inflammation that it sets into play these diseases. And yet physicians,
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not knowing this lens of trauma, diagnose it as you have an autoimmune
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condition, and here's a medication for it, or if I'm a functional medicine
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posician, here's a diet for it. Here's chronic pain, Well, here's
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some medications. Or if I'm an integrative practitioner, well, then here's some
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meditation and some other practices for chronic pain. And yet we're not really addressing
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what's driving each of these chronic diseases. And yet here we are also with
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the trauma therapists, and they're seeing people for the trauma side of things,
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and sometimes they don't realize that when they see that this person also has autoimmunity,
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also has chronic digestive issues, that that is an expression a manifestation of
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the trauma work and how accumulated the trauma has become in their body, and
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even how more gently they're going to need to do the trauma work for this
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person who has all of these downstream effects in their biology, because it's almost
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like it's become even deeper ingrained in who they are to the degree that affecting
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their physiology, and so to change that whole system takes more time and more
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gentleness. We're not going to be able to dive deep and fast into things
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because we'll actually re traumatize the body and put it back into this overwhelmed,
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Oh my goodness, that was too much, too fast type of state.
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Are you saying that there's a direct relationship causitive relationship between trauma and autommune disease
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or sometimes there's that effect. So what we have seen in the literature,
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and we can go back to the Average Childhood Experiences study, and this was
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the first study that really started to connect adult diseases chronic diseases with childhood trauma
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and autoimmunity became one of the first ones that they saw. The first one
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was actually obesity and being overweight. That was what clued them in to the
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fact that there was that connection. But it opened up their curiosity and they
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started looking at, well, what else might be connected and they found a
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very strong association. Now, in science, we are never going to say
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causation, We're going to say association. But then along the way there's been
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other elements that if you study functional medicine, for example, you know that
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these have to play a role for a person to develop an autoimmunity. One
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of those would be leaky gut and food sensitivities. So you actually have to
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have leaky gut and inflammation in your gut to develop an autoimmune condition. So
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what if you had childhood trauma and for whatever reason that I don't know is
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possible, but you might not have leaky gut, which I think that everybody
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who experiences trauma has leaky gut to a certain degree, and you might not
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develop the autommunity, you might develop the chronic fatigue, you might develop the
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fibromylogia, you might develop something else. And so all of our life experiences
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are epigenetics or genetics. It all comes together into the pot to decide what
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will be your downstream effect of having this nervous system that's driving disease. But
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which disease. Wow, there's a lot of factors that go into which one
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it will be. For you culturally, I mean at the stage of where
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we are, are things changing in terms of professionals, physicians becoming more aware
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of that trauma lens you were talking about. I want to say yes,
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and to a certain degree, I want to say yes. And yet I
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mean doctor Vincent Feletti has been doing this work and put out this first adverse
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to how to Experience the study in nineteen eighty. We are several several decades
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into this and it is still not in conventional medicine. Yet he has shown
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through studies that are very wrong statistically significant, that just by asking a person,
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what were some experiences in your life and do you think that this disease
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or symptom that you have right now has anything to do with something that has
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happened in your life before? Simply by asking Guy, And this was fascinated,
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and I blew my mind right because being a physician, I want to
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do things. I want to fix things. Why I didn't become a therapist
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and the psychiatrist. I don't want to just talk. I want to do
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no offense. Please, Guy. So I saw this study and he's talking
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to me about it, and he says, just by asking, that is
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the treatment, and yet that is not what happens in conventional medicine. Yet,
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and these studies are decades decades old, why aren't they well, because
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what those studies showed was that it decreased the emergency room rate by thirty percent.
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Boy, So imagine the conventional medical system that runs on health insurance,
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that runs on people having emergencies and needing to go to the emergency room like
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this is where are their revenue comes from. Imagine if they actually implemented this
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and people stopped needing to go see the doctor as much and started getting better
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and feeling better simply because they were being heard and they had a space to
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talk about these things that otherwise you just don't talk about these things. It
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decreased the amount of emergency room visits by thirty percent. That's amazing, and
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it's crazy, and it's sad and frightening all of those. Yeah, I
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mean, to what degree also, do you think comes into play the fact
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that just trauma in and of itself is almost like a hot potato in our
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culture. Who no one wants to talk about it except me and you.
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But you know, what is it that traumatize you that wouldn't traumatize me.
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Now where does that come into play too? What I see is that it
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makes people uncomfortable because they haven't dealt with their own right. And so if
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I have stuff that I start feeling bubbling up just by hearing you, oh
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yeah, no, I don't want to hear you. I need to put
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distance between me and you. Let me put something right. But I need
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to protect myself because if this stuff bubbles up, I fall apart. And
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I can't fall apart. I have thirty more patients to see today, and
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then I have a family that I have to go take care of it,
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and then I've got this, and then I've got that, So I can't
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afford to fall apart. And so it makes us so uncomfortable to be around
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people who are letting their stuff surface, because we've got to keep our stuff
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stuffed down. Let me just remind everyone i'm talking with doctor Amy Epigeon.
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Or let's just pause here for a second to thank our sponsors. All right,
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we are back. So Amy, how do you work? Okay?
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So you have all this incredible knowledge in your perspective? What do you do?
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What do I do? Right? What do you do? I so
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appreciate that guy, You've you got me. You understand my need to do
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things and to fix things. What do I do? I take everything that
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I have experienced and everything that I've learned to really develop a pathway that people
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can follow. I can guide them down this pathway to gently start addressing the
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stored trauma in their body. So, even as a medical physician, I
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actually start people with twenty one days of somatic work. This is basic somatic
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work, largely influenced by my training and somatic experiencing with doctor Peter Levine,
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where I then took my training because I did that training to help myself.
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At the time wasn't ever intended to be something that I do with my work.
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But I took that and I applied it to my own life and I
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figured out what what I needed to do from that on a daily basis to
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make this work to see change in my own life, to see change in
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my own health. And so when people come to me now, that's actually
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where I start them, because that somatic work will gently start to create moments
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of safety for them. And we are so used to living in our heads.
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Our heads have been our safe place. We love to read about stuff
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or watch a video about stuff, listen to a podcast about stuff, but
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experience it. No no, no, no, thank you. Let me
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stay in my head. That's our safe space. And so being able to
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come in and say, ah, but I need you in your body like
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I need mind and body actually connected. And how we do that is through
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these basic somatic tools, where your mind is putting its attention on different sensations
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in the body, understanding it, but understanding it with the intention of I
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want to create an experience of safety for you right now. So that's the
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first seven days. The next seven days, I'm teaching them somatic tools to
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create a felt sense of support for themselves. And so much of this process,
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guy, is them being empowered to do this for themselves. Just that
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is helping them get out of the trauma response. I can do something,
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and I can do something for myself. I'm not helpless, I'm not powerless,
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I'm not stuck no matter what's going on. I've got tools right now
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that I can pull out and I can create this safety, this port for
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myself. Let me just say interjective, I made for some So these people
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who are coming to you, who are they? Anyone who's suffered trauma?
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Yes, and actually more and more professionals are coming to me. So professionals
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both in the medical field and in the mental health space, they're coming.
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Some of the professionals want to go into my training program and become a biology
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of trauma professional, and this is the prerequisite for that, is this somatic
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work. But a lot of them recognize, oh, I've got my own
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trauma work to do, and here I am trying to help people, and
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I'm noticing that my body is still reacting to some people, my body is
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getting tired at the end of the day, Like I notice that I'm going
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still into a freezer or a trauma response. With the work that I do,
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it's limiting my ability to help people. Well, I'm also hearing here
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is a kind of reversal of the Western medical paradigm too. Right, we're
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often times not always obviously they're but oftentimes when people go to a physician,
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it's okay, the physician is going to you know, heal the person,
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but you're empowering the the client coming to you. Okay, so continue.
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So you've got the first time that's and that's just such an important point that
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you that you highlighted there. So again like we've given our power away and
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and then you know, we get upset when mistakes are made or or you
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know, we we've put our hopes onto something. And yet being that we
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live with our own body, like we truly can become the experts on our
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body. And I think that every person should become the experts of their own
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body and specifically their nervous system, so that not only do they have the
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understanding of which state of the nervous system? And I am I in right
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now? I am my in stress? Am I in trauma? Am I
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in pairstic? Which of those three states of the nervous system am I in
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at any given moment? And am I okay with being here? Or do
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I want to use some of my tools to shift into a different state?
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But that sense of empowerment is important, So I am clear that my role
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is not to fix you, not to heal you. My role is to
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create the environment in which the transformation could happen when you show up and do
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the work. I show you what work needs to be done, but I
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can't do the work for you. I create the environment in which the transformation
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can happen when you show up and you do the work. How much of
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that perspective was born out of your own experience going through trauma, experiencing trauma,
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everything like that was the one of the hard lessons that I ought to
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learn with my adopted son Miguel, as I went into it expecting that I
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could could be the one to heal him from his pain and his past,
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and I had to learn that that wasn't my job. My job is to
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create the environment. In that case, it's creating the home environment and creating
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the relationship environment that he could choose the healing. But he had to choose
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that. So okay, continue on. So the first seven days, second
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seven days, and what happens after that for people? So the last week,
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that last seven days, I'm teaching them exercises on expansion. And this
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is safe expansion. And that might not be a term that many people are
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used to, but expansion is really the only place where we experience joy,
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where we experience healthy anger, where we can actually process past trauma in a
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healthy way. All of that takes place in this state of expansion rather than
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collapse and restriction. And yet many people thinking that, oh, I want
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to experience more joy in life, they try to just go to expansion first
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without laying that foundation of No, you need to feel safe first, and
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your body needs to feel supported first, and then it can move into expansion.
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I see safety and support as being like the two legs that we stand
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on, and when those are strong and stable, it allows our upper body
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to move, to dance, to move into expansion. But without those foundational
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legs, you're going to actually potentially create another trauma response as your body expands
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and then contracts immediately because it's like, I don't have the support for this,
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I don't have the safety for this, and I need to collapse in
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order to move back into what feels safe to me. And it's fascinating because
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I've started this study the people who go through my twenty one day journey program
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because I was seeing changes. But I being a physician, right like,
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I think in numbers, and I like, I need to be able to
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objectively measure this change. Guy, please don't laugh at me. So I
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started collecting data from them, and we have the data back now. We've
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collected data from two different twenty one day journeys. We're doing a third one
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right now, and drift from the beginning to the end just those twenty one
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days people experience, and these were all statistically significant numbers. Not only do
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they experience a sixty percent increase in felt sense of safety, but then get
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this, because of that twenty six percent decrease in daily physical pain, Wow,
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twenty eight percent decrease in GI symptoms, twenty eight percent decrease in sleep
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issues, thirty percent decrease in anxiety, thirty percent decrease in depression. We
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have these numbers that show that wait a second, what you're doing here that
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you just think are these simple somatic exercises ten minutes a day, They're actually
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changing something in your body that it's actually changing your daily physical pain levels.
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There are people who go through this program that they message me afterwards and they
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say, I don't know what happened, I don't know what you just did
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to me, but I no longer need my pain medications. I just got
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off my arthritis pain medications and I don't need them anymore. We've had other
27:34
people get off their thyroid medications. Why because, like their physiology is now
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coming from this place of safety that they've learned to create for themselves, not
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waiting on other people to do this, not waiting on life to do this
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for them. They are intentional now about no, I create safety in my
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daily life. I create a felt sense of support in my daily life,
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and then our physiology changes as a result of that. So we're literally living
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now from a physiology of safety rather than this physiology of fear, which will
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always drive disease and pain. Now, is this people who've experienced the broad
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range of traumas, Yes, there's okay, we don't and we don't qualify
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that. We say, this is what it is. This is the journey
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that I guide you into. You are more than welcome if you want to
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show up and do the work and see what's possible for you. So as
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not at all based on any specific form of trauma or the fact that they
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think that they've even had trauma, that's not the point. The point is
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you have a body, you have a nervous system. You need to become
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the expert in it. So come on, let's do the work. And
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in terms of intervention, you've mentioned semitic experiencing. Is that the basis of
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what you're doing for this initial phase. Yes, and then once they complete
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that base sick somatic work for the twenty one days. Then we step into
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parts work and biology work. So those are the three components that I integrate
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into the path and the journey that I create for people. I start with
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that somatic work just because again from the data that I'm now seeing as well,
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that kind of proves my point is that is the place to start,
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because if I try to start with biology, then I'm working still from this
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biology of fear, and it's always going to be up and down and all
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over the place to pain on your day depend on how much fear you had
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that day. Whereas if I can stabilize it, if I can help regulate
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your nervous system, that's what stabilizes your biology. And now you've got a
29:45
different baseline. We can come in and we can look at your biology and
29:48
we look at things including attachment, We look at things including neurodevelopment and do
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you have any ner developmental gaps that would actually be feeding the dysregulation of your
30:00
nervous system. So here I have guy grown ass adults professionals around the world
30:04
who are on the floor doing a tummy crawl in order to repair the neurodevelopmental
30:11
gap that they seem to have in their nervous system. It's incredible, and
30:15
for some of them, they're not able to do it at first. Just
30:18
getting down on the floor on their tummy, it starts to just bringing up
30:21
so much stuff, stuff that doesn't have memories, it doesn't even have words.
30:25
They maybe just start crying, and so sometimes it can take some time
30:29
just to be able to get comfortable enough to do that work to be on
30:33
the floor. But we do attachment ner development. We do a lot of
30:37
the gut health, and so we do gut health, which includes grief work.
30:42
We do stress work, so we actually work to empower our stress response,
30:48
not diminish our stress response, but actually strengthen our stress response so that
30:52
we can stay in that stress longer and not go into the trauma response.
30:57
The trauma response is most of the damage comes to our biology, the downstream
31:03
long term effects on our biology and our disease. So once we've worked on
31:08
that freeze response and we work with mitochondria, we work with all of the
31:11
things that are draining our energy. Inflammation is a big one. Neurotransmitters are
31:17
another one. We're all working to regulate the nervous system just through these different
31:22
ways. The biology work, the parts work, and the somatic work,
31:26
integrating all of them for the final net effect of regulating that nervous system,
31:32
because that's what's going to change a person's health, physical health, mental health,
31:36
emotional health more than anything else. You know. The idea of being
31:41
empowered as a trauma survivor is really interesting. I mean, and it's very
31:51
inspiring because it's almost the antithesis right of what someone's experience is. So just
31:59
to you talk about that, it's very inspiring to me. The other thing
32:02
that's very interesting to me is, you know the way you talk, Amy,
32:08
you can feel I can feel your experience moving through almost everything you say.
32:15
And I'm wondering, could you imagine, like when you were going through
32:22
medical school and became a physician, could you imagine hearing yourself now speak?
32:30
Because stereotypically it's very different from a lot of Western physicians. Correct very different,
32:38
and obviously there are exceptions out there, But the different is what is
32:45
that what bridges that gap your experience having experienced trauma. Yeah, and this
32:53
is actually takes me back to the last conversation that I have a doctor gobber
32:59
Matt Tay where he says, both you and I our work is not recognized
33:04
by the convencial medical system because it's just too different, Like they don't even
33:08
know what to do with it. It's so different from their model. It's
33:13
not like, oh, here's a new protocol, here's a new diagnosis,
33:16
let's put this in the DSM five. It's so different that they don't even
33:22
know what to do with it. And so when I was first starting out
33:25
of my medical training, I had no idea that this is where I would
33:30
land. I mean, this is very much the accumulation of my experiences.
33:35
And then yes, I do feel that at a certain point I had this
33:38
calling that I could choose to step into. And I definitely see that I
33:45
am living my purpose and am very much enjoying it. Well, you can
33:52
feel it. I mean you can feel you're living your purpose. I mean
33:54
it's so exciting. My God, are what's the best way for people to
34:00
get in touch with you? As we kind of wind down here before even
34:04
before you answer that, so you have a summit coming up. I know
34:07
it's not coming up to August, but give us tell us a little bit
34:08
about that. Who it's for, what's about where it is? Yeah,
34:13
So this is my third annual Biology of Traumas Summit and have a lot of
34:17
great speakers lined up. Doctor gobber Mate is coming back again, doctor Peter
34:21
Levine and doctor Stephen Poor just doctor Bruce Lipton is another one, doctor Mark
34:25
Hymen. Light Lightweights basically lightweight light lightweights of the field. So I mean
34:34
again, like I just I get so excited that I get to be at
34:37
the center of all of this and bring them all together and make this magic
34:39
happen. So the theme for this year's summit is the trauma disease connection and
34:46
the path to freedom and so being able to look at what are those diseases
34:52
that have that association with trauma that we just haven't had that lens, haven't
34:57
had that eyesight, and then what do we do about it? Right?
34:59
So I always want to share that, hope, I always want to share
35:01
that, And there's so much we can do about this, and so it
35:04
will be including that the path to freedom. So is this online? This
35:08
is all online and free registration August one through seven, and so make I
35:15
would make sure that you're getting my email so that you can get that registration
35:20
link when it opens, because it's going to open the end of July.
35:22
I'm also happy to send that over to you as well, and people can
35:25
subscribe to my newsletter on my website Trauma Healing Accelerated dot com and that would
35:30
be how they will make sure that they get that registration information when it goes
35:36
live end of July. Okay, I'll make sure to have that linked up
35:38
here at the show notes page at the Trauma Theres podcast dot com. Amy.
35:44
Always amazing to speak with you and so freaking inspiring. Really, I
35:50
love it and you're awesome. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you
35:53
so much, guy. It's always wonderful to spend time with you. All
35:57
right, thank you. Care