Latest / Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast / Belle Gibson: The Search for Instagram's Worst Con Artist Recap COLLAB with Your Bish Therapist

Transcript

Belle Gibson: The Search for Instagram's Worst Con Artist Recap COLLAB with Your Bish Therapist · Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey everybody, Hi Melissa.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Hi Amy. I'm so happy to be here with you today.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Me too. You guys were doing a collab. I am
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: here with Melissa Reich, your bish therapist and Melissa.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Everybody, Yes, and I'm here with the fabulous, the one
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: and only miss Amy Phillips from Drama don.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I had to add in my own little sound effect
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: to pump us up. What so cool to be here
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: with you, Melissa. We have a lot of work to do,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: and dare I say, You're going to be doing the
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: lion's share of this and I will be like a
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: fan in the front row seats, just cheering you on
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: as you talk about what we're going to discuss. So
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: we've all we've done our work. Hopefully you guys have
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: heard about this, and if you haven't, buckle up because
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: we're going to take you on a real ride telling
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: the story and giving professional insights from your bish therapist
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: and clownish insights from your drama darling bitch wife. We're
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: talking about Bell Gibson. We're covering the documentary, which is
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: what Melissa.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: It is the search for Instagram's Worst con Artist, which
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: is the documentary on Bell Gibson. But you also watched
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: something called Apple Cider Vinegar, Yeah, which was the it
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: was what would they call that? Not a documentary, a very.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Lose dramatization, and it's a series. It's a you know,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: it's a drama series. And it was over on I
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: believe Netflix. Where am I watching it? Yeah? I think
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: it's Netflix, Yeah, I think so. And it's like an
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: eight part series, which, like, I mean, that's why I
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: was like, wells, like we pushed another hour because I
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: hadn't even finished a get because it was so good
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: and it really but it is not It is based
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: on Bell Gibson and other influencers, health influencers in that
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: and other things like so it's not a strictly it
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: is not a true story factually. So just know that
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: going in.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Right, because I know so I watched. I took notes
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: on the Instagram's Worst con Artist because I felt that
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: was for me where the breadth of clinical information would lie.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: But you know, you watched I've heard you know, Apple
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Cider Vinegar was so interesting and fascinating and it kind
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: of took Bell Gibson and Escamandon an amalgamation of all
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: of these scam artists, which I'm just like as a
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: two time cancer survivor and a sassy bish therapist, I
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: cannot wait to read these people for filth today. I'm
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: so excited.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, what a perfect person to be talking about
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: this from completely from two huge angles. As you said,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: you're a cancer survivor and you're also a licensed therapist.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: So by the way, I did watch the documentary of course,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: obviously to get my bearings, and then I was just
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: so interested to do some other and I ran out
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: of time to like I wanted to do even more
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: deep dive on Bell Gibson and watch more videos and
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: all those things. So but why don't we we start
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: obviously with you know, you probably have a beginning point
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: as to how you want to begin this, So Melissa
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: take us there, sure.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: So for those of you who haven't watched the series,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: I will just kind of describe briefly what it is
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: that we watched. It was actually only two episodes, but
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: those two episodes were so rich with so much knowledge.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: So what they did was throughout the episode they had
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: a variety of journalists, friends and community members who were
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: scammed by Belle friends from growing up. They had neurosurgeons,
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: they had a really wonderful. I believe she was a psychologist,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: and it was like a symphony of all of these
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: people coming together.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: And her brother, oh my gosh, yes.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: And her brother and her stepdad.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, her stepdad.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Yes. So her mom unfortunately passed away, but the brother
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: and the stepdad, who I would argue are her harshest critics.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, everyone was interviewed.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: And it gave puzzle pieces to this bigger picture of
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: what is this about? Because so Amy and I talked
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: off air about you know, you've talked about Scamanda with
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Emily and some other Darling and so this we wanted
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: to stick to Bell Gibson, but I also did an
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: episode where I talked about a woman she as a
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: writer for Grey's Anatomy, Elizabeth Finch, who also fake answered.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: We talked about that over on Drama Darling as well.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, all right, And so what's fascinating to me,
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: and what I'm going to start with is just that
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: each of these people, so specifically Scamanda, Belle Gibson, and
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Elizabeth Finch, they're all so different in what I believe
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: is the under lying pieces to maybe why they did
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: what they did. And so I'm really interested to talk
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: about Belle because I think out of Scamanda and out
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: of Elizabeth Finch, I personally believe that those two people
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: are more antisocial. So, and let me be clear, I'm
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: not diagnosing anyone. I've never met these people. I have
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: no idea who they are. That would be irresponsible and inappropriate.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: But what I'm going to do is take the behavior
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: and talk, because really what we're talking about here is
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: we're talking about a couple of psychological pieces, which is
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: lack of empathy, anti social behaviors, right, narcissism, and where
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: does narcissism fall into a personality disorder? Then there's the
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: old we used to call it Munchausen syndrome. It's no
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: longer called that is now called factitious disorder and just
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: fun fact because I'm a nerd like this. The only
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: reason it's called something different is because Munchausen was this
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: guy in like, you know, nineteen hundreds Germany who was
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: like a tall tail teller, and so in terms of psychology,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: it's just wasn't really a super accurate name.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: It was she sounds like a troll that lives under
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: a bridge, you know. I mean, it's a very sure,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: it's like a fa like he's spinning gold, you know,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: on a wheel. That's what it sounds like. So yes,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: in fact, you know what's so funny is that I
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: was talking to my therapist, Oh, Munchausen, it's now called
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: factitious disorder, and she was like, well, look at you.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: You know, She's like, how'd you know that? I'm like, yeah,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: she's like, dare I even ask? You know, because yeah,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: I know you watch all that stuff, but so fascinating.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: And yes, that that is they're getting away from naming
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: conditions and diseases or what have you after people and
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: putting more of an accurate description to what it is.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: And that's a perfect example. So I love that you
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: pointed that out.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean with psychology, you know, it's a growing science.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: We're always growing and learning, and so you know, you
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: just do better once you know better. Because he gives
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: a oot about Baron Munchausen, which was his name, and
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: it does give credence to he was living under a bridge,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: spinning gold or something like what a name. But anyway,
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: so it is now just called factitious disorder or factitious
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: disorder imposed on another. So the case for example of
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: like Gypsy Rose. That would have been factitious disorder imposed
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: upon another. And so I it's a symphony for me
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: in terms of figuring out what parts of all of
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: these disorders or tendencies led to such a significant con
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: because Belle Gibson arguably was the biggest con Probably I
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: don't know, Elizabeth Finch that was pretty huge too. But
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Belle Gibson, like she had an app with the Apple,
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: she worked with Apple. It was like on the Apple Watch,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: and it was all completely like based on a.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Lie most financial gain perhaps, ye.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: I believe so, because at the end of the episode,
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: I did right here. So there was a civil lawsuit
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: for her fraudulent claims of giving to charity when she
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: really did, and she was fined four hundred and fifteen
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars, which of course she refused to pay that fine,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: of course, And there's been no consequences whatsoever.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: Right, and she's not in jail, No, she is not.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: You know, they haven't taken her like I think. There
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: was a trial where then she had to pay this amount,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: but she did not get legal consequences for what she
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: did because of these charities she was saying she was
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: raising money for different charities and then they never received
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: the money obviously.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Right, but what so and Belle Gibson is from Australia, right,
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: and so with these different cases. One of the reasons
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: I think that so Scamanda she got like five years
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: of jail time and Elizabeth Finch didn't. She had some trouble,
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't She's also kind of just like walking
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: around free. What I find fascinating is that I don't
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: know how things work in Australia, but I think that
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: because Belle Gibson she defrauded human beings, and with Scamanda,
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: she defrauded the government. And if you defraud the government
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: in the United States, oh, they're going to come packing
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: and they don't care if it's five dollars or five
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars, They're going to take you down. And I
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: think Australia must be different. And I don't think she
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: messed with a government.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Mmmmmmm yeah, because she wasn't even her She wasn't even
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: like licensed. I mean, she didn't even have an actual
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: charitable organization set up to even defraud. So, like the
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: money didn't even go into an actual company that's a
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: charitable organization. So maybe there was some some loophole in
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: there where they couldn't quite get her. Seems worse almost,
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: But anyway, Oh.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: It does seem worse because you're taking money from real
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: peace people who you know, needed help and aid and charity,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: like people who were really struggling. So I guess you
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: know how I'll lay this out is for me, I
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: also understood watching this some things that maybe other people
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: don't because I am very fully integrated with the cancer community,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: and the cancer community it's a large community of people
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: who are very vulnerable, who are always looking for how
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: can I make my life better? What can I do
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: to extend my life or decrease chances of you know,
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: having a relapse or reoccurrence. And so what I understand
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: about this that maybe some people don't that I wanted
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: to share initially is that she Bell Gibson was able
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: to take such control because she was so tapped into
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: the cancer community. And that for me and for so
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: many other people is I think one of the major
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: issues is that what Bell Gibson did. And believe me,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: this grift is not new because it's actually I will
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: share a personal story I was. I fell victim to
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: a grift like this. Yeah, I didn't even tell you
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: the same because I wanted it to be a little surprised.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: So when I was first diagnosed, so I had ovarian
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: cancer when I was seventeen. That was stage three C.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: I was not expected to survive. There were hospitals that
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: wouldn't even treat me. They recommended hospice, and so that
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: my parents took me to chop because I was seventeen.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: And then when they found out that it was ovarian cancer,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: they took me to University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, and
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: they saved my life. I survived, I wasn't supposed to.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: And then when I was thirty five four now, I
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: was diagnosed with a chronic lymphasidic leukemia, which is a
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: chronic cancer that I will live with and there is
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: no cure at this point. But medical technology has been
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: great up until this point, if you know, there's no
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: interruptions to that. But and so when I first got diagnosed,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: it's you know, cl is a slow growing cancer, and
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: you know it's by the way, it's a common thing.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: I think Scamanda initially said that she had some sort
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: of non Hodgkin's lymphoma, and the reason why people will
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: do that is because look at me, I look great.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I have great hair, I look you know, my skin
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: looks great.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: You know what are You're fabulous? You're you're yeah, you're
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: you got charisma, you're popping and locking. So people tend
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: to use that diagnosis because you can't visibly see it. Yes, correct, okay.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: And and there are some cases with lymphos that are
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: more aggressive and they are quicker growing like mine is
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: a chronic more indolent, but there are some that are
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: more aggressive. And so the point is is that indolent people,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: it just means slow growing over time, like it's not
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: going to kill you quick, it's just going to like
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: you know, like get your real slow. Yeah. And so
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: so when I was first diagnosed I having cancer for
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: the second time, my PTSD was out of control and
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: at that point I was not with a good therapist
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: who could really help me. And so what happens with
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: cancer survivors is you think that there's something you can
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: do to control your cancer. And I'm I'm going to
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: be the first one to say that you can't. You
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: can't because if you could control your cancer with food,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: nobody would have cancer. And so I think that I
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: fell for I don't know if I should say the
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: name of like he's still like out there? Oh really, yeah,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I should say Amy.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Well, have they been outed?
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: No, he's just still doing his thing, you know, maintain.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: So Okay, I'll say it, and then if we need to,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Why not, how about don't say it?
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Okay?
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: And then you can you know, how about go the reverse?
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Don't say it? And then if we if you decide
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: you want to talk about it, you can name them
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: in the description fair enough, name them they also, like
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, if they're doing damage, I mean, why aren't
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: they in trouble?
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Well? And and this is why. So this is a
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: person who had a stage one cancer, which, listen, stage
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: one cancer is still cancer. I'm not I'm not this
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: is I'm not stepping on that. But having a stage
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: one cancer is vastly different from having an end stage cancer.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: And so and also sometimes it doesn't matter what stage
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: the cancer is. The type of cancer really matters. For example,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: blood cancers, lymphomas, they are very hard to get into
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: a prolonged remission because the cancers and the blood, the
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: bone marrow, and the nodes and you can't remove that, right,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: and so it's it's very, very tricky. And so my
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: point is is I've learned a lot about these grifters,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: and I fell for one in terms of this. You know,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: this guy was like, you know, I just got the
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: surgery to get this removed. And then I started eating
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: well and I cured my own cancer, and I was like, huh, okay,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: well maybe I can do that too. And what ended
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: up happening was I ended up with an eating disorder
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: because I listened to the bullshit it and I thought, well,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: if I just ate vegan or plant based, or cut
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: out sugar or did all these other things, that I
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: would prolong my life and I wouldn't have to do
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: treatment and all of these other things. And so the
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: time came, you know, things progressed despite the fact that
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: I did all the right things. I didn't drink alcohol.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: I drank nothing but water. I'm telling you, like I did.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: I followed like a Bell Gibson playbook, right, yeah, because
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: that's what these grifters do. They give you. They look
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: at these meals and they say, well, this is anti
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: inflammatory and blah blah blah. But and I realized that
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: it was a whole bag of bullshit that I had
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: been served on a plate, and I felt foolish for
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: being taken advantage of. I really felt I felt foolish
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: and I felt very just vulnerable. And so what ended
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: up happening was I got in with a wonderful fair
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: who I see now, and she got me in with
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: a nutritionist and we just had to break through all
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: of that misinformation about you know, like our bodies. For example,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: when you eat a donut versus when you eat like pasta,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: your body doesn't like, you know, calculate like meat more.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: This is pasta and this is a don't. It's like
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: your body breaks stuff down into sugars, fats, carbs. You know.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: It's like when you look at the science behind it,
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: you kind of take away that mysticism. But so for me,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: this is really personal because I did feel duped and
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: I did feel I was really mussed up for a
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: long time because I had convinced myself that I can't
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: eat certain things. And so I'm here to tell people
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: if you are listening to this and you have cancer,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: your cancer survivor, eat the doughnut, eat the cookie, eat
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: whatever it is you want all things in moderation, and
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: there is not one right thing for every single person.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Individuals are unique as snowflakes physically, mentally, emotionally, and so
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: it's finding what works for you. But I what sometimes
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: happens is people get discouraged by you know, Bell Gibson
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: was saying, well, I don't drink alcohol, which was a
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: lie she did. I you know, I had stage four
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: brain cancer. That's what Bell Gibson said that she had.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: So just to be clear, she said she had a
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: stage four brain cancer. She was diagnosed that she had
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: four months to live, and all of a sudden she
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: started eating healthy and you look at her and she's
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: the picture of health. Looked much like me, right, I mean,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: you know, picture of health. She looks very fit, she
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: looks you know, and so everyone would look at her
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: and think, wow, look at what this woman's doing. So
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: what she did was she played with cancer people with
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: cancer their emotional experiences to say you need to just
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: work harder, buy this app, make this meal. You're not
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: working hard enough. And the fact is that cancer is
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: a very formidable force. It doesn't give us shit what
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: you eat. I mean, food is medicine, right, that it
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: does matter, but cancer does not care.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: And the whole Pantry idea, which by the way, started
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: I believe this was around twenty thirteen that she started
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: posting right on Instagram. And now correct me if I'm wrong,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: but it seemed like, you know, the if you want
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: to call it an addiction, it looks like an addiction
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: to attention that she had been trying to get her
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: whole life with a lot of these you know, cry
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: wolf health situations, and she found a platform where she
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: could start getting the attention that she needed. And the
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Whole Pantry was a product that was a step further
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: from her just being on Instagram and sharing her story
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: and getting a lot of likes and a lot of
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: love for that and the attention that she wanted. But
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: then she monetized that into an enormous, huge thing which
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: became her brand, which we know she started another brand
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: before that and that didn't work, and so then she
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: this almost seemed like a business plan that matched up
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: with who she was as a fraud that's been bubbling
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: underneath the surface from the get go.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, it was like it, you know the Big Bang
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: that you know, the theory and science is that the
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: Big Bang started the universe, and I would argue it
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: was circumstances similar to The Big Bang, where it was
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: just like she had morphed into having the right look,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: because you know, to be a good cancer patient you
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: have to be thin. God forbid you have any weight
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: on you, which is also bullshit. You know, thin privilege
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: is very real. She had blonde hair, she had hazel eyes,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: she had you know, she was by all accounts of
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: tract and that does make a difference as well, right
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: when you're buying a health and wellness app. She reminds
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: me of like Gwyneth Paltrow a little bit. She had
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: that Gwyneth Paltrow Goop sort of shtick going on, and
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: I think that it did. It just caught fire so immediately,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: because what's wild here is that she seemed like she
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: was just a good business person, Like, yeah, she.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Could have left the lies.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: Her pictures were gorgeous, the Instagram was gorgeous, The app
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: was amazing. It was preloaded onto the Apple Watch in
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: twenty fourteen. Like she couldn't just let that go. She
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: couldn't even let it go and say I'm a survivor
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: of cancer. She had to continually say at once.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Double said, my god, it spread.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Not only doubled down, but said.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Liver, I mean, are you kidding me?
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: Let me tell you, as someone who's had cancer twice,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: spleen cancer is not a thing. It's like, that's what's
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: so crazy too about Belle. It's like if you had
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: stage four malignant brain tumor, which, by the way, there
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: are tons of different types of brain tumors. There are
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: some that are cancers, there are some that are non cancerous.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: The neurosurgeon that was featured on this episode, her name
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: was Professor Kate Drummond, and she was very very smart,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: and she basically called out how insanely ridiculous it is
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: to claim like Scamanda, she was smarter about how like
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: she claimed, you know, certain things were happening that maybe
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: could have happened.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: But what Belle has had a lot of redungeon to detail.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Scamanda really went in on the detail. She was very
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: detail oriented, you know, with everything that she was putting
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: out there and showing everybody everything, whereas Bell was not.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Right. And so for me, I feel like with Belle
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: there is a mental health component here that I don't
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: think Scamanda or Elizabeth Finch have it all. I think
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: they're both antisocial. I think they're both people who, you know,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: theoretically speaking, again, I don't know them. I think that
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: women are so frequently like written off as the gentler
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: sex or like, especially if a woman is attractive and thin,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: it's like, oh, well, you couldn't be evil. Women are
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: just as evil as men. The difference is they get
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: away with it because society doesn't like to hold pretty
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: women accountable. They don't. And so I think that with
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Belle Gibson, this neurosurgeon said there was a particular word
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: that really stuck with me and said that if if
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: she was saying all these things that were happening, she
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: would be moribund, which is a clinical term for in
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: the state of dying. And when like I've been dying before,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: I know what that feels like, and so you wouldn't
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: be like, you know, having this glossy, glorious hair, and
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: you know when people have brain tumors and it impacts
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: like the way that their eyes move and things like it.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: It just impacts so much. And so it was just
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: really apparent that she was lying. But then she doubled
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: and tripled down with the most absurd claims on the planet,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: like spleen cancer isn't that's not a thing, and uterine
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: cancer would be called something like uterine cancer. Was it cervical?
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: Was it uterine? Was it? You know? Like so there's
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: just these things when you're in with the cancer community
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: you have a really good understanding of. And I think
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: that's why people got so angry. It's because people could
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: have died from what Bell did. I'll give you another example.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: My parents when I was seventeen, they took me to
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: a reiki specialist because you know, things were really bad,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: and the reiki specialists suggested, I don't do chemotherapy, I
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: just do reiki.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: And thankfully, you know, my parents they have a lot
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: of faults, but this wasn't one. They were like, you're
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: out of your mind, we're not doing that. Do your
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: reiki and then we're gonna go well and we're gonna
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: go get her treatment.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Wow. And there people like that are everywhere. I think
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: on that type of level, you experienced it. What is
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: surprising is that no one, at least that I know of,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: I haven't read. I could be wrong, are suing Belle
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: a person who downloaded the app and were their Apple lawsuits.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: You know, people who decided to quit their chemo, the
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: radiation and just fully follow this diet plan. But like
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: how long you know, I'm not sure maybe you know this.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: How long was the app up?
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Was it just like a couple of weeks? Was it
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: a couple months?
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: No?
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: How long this was?
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: From? Okay, so I'm twenty thirteen, Apple awarded Bell Gibson
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: with the best new Food and Drink app, which gave
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: her credibility. That was in twenty thirteen. And the civil lawsuits,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: So there were lawsuits with Bell Gibson, but they were
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: all civil and that went until twenty fifteen. So the
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: window when the app started to when the downfall came
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: was two years about okay, from twenty thirteen to like
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: late twenty fifteen. Is why you twenty.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: People tried to suit App tried to suit Apple. Don't
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: you have Oh?
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: I would absolutely like that is rabital?
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: I feel like we should go Oh I'm sure hell out. Yeah.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: It was like no one with this woman did their
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: due diligence.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Even just nuts to me, right. Yeah, that's so that's
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: from from the standpoint of she never showed her medical
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: records never proved that she had cancer. Penguin, which by
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: the way.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: She said she didn't want to do that because they
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: brought up negative energy. And then I and I thought
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: to myself when she said that, I was like, well,
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: then I have boxes of negative negative energy in my basement.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's why my luck has been burn medical records.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: That's the thing, Like people who are faking stuff, they'll always,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: like Brooks, you know, real right, they always will find
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: something like if people were like, hey, Melissa, we think
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: you're faking this, I could produce records like boxes within
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: four point two seconds. And so that's always to me
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: just like a little red flag that I wanted to
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: point out. But please continue.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: You're you're absolutely right. I mean, And the fact that
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Penguin Books, who publish her book, and Apple both you know,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: and obviously they go hand in hand, because I'm sure
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: at that point I think Penguin was second in line. Yes, yeah,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: they probably will like well, I mean, Apple, like they
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: gave her an entire app that's preloaded onto your watch
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: and your phone or whatever. So if they that is
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: such a gross error. I can't even imagine how that works.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: How Apple such a big corporation were to have dropped
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: the ball like that, but perhaps they they got they
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: had a loophole because maybe the app didn't say anything
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: about her fighting cancer in the description. That's possible. Maybe
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: the story was out there, but maybe they didn't include
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: that in that all though. You know with her book
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: that was part of the big story is that she
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: did fight cancer.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: With the book. I know for sure is that what
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: I saw when I was watching this I watched it
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: of course a couple of times, is that Penguin at
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: the end they knew something was off, but they had
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: too much into it and they went ahead with it anyway.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, I mean.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: And I think you know. And so for me, this
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: is one of those things where cancer patients need to
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: understand that corporations don't give a shit. They don't. If
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: you want a corporation to care, they care about making money.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: They don't care about us. They don't. They just don't.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: And so I think that's the problem is sometimes people
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: look for these like ethical corporations, and in my opinion,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: they do not exist.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: And so I mention that the downfall of both Scamanda
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: and Belle Gibson was the whoever, whomever investigated was the fraud,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: like that was the only way they could take them down,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: because you can't accuse someone of faking cancer unless you
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: see their medical records, and in both cases they wouldn't
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: show it. So in this Scamanda situation, they got her
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: on fraud for you know, getting money from the church,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: getting money from people, and that's how they took her down.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: And the same with Belle Gibson that it was the charities.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: That's how they get her. Because even still, you can't
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: even if you've got a million people screaming and including
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: family members, you don't have cancer and you're faking it,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: there's nothing anyone can do about it because you can't
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: get their medical records, which is amazing and also terrifying
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: because you know that, yeah, yeah.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: It's like how you know, I see how this happens
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: because and that's the other thing, you know, whenever I
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: tell people I have cancer, you know, I kind of
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: get like the head tilt and the sad little face,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: and people are afraid to confront confront it, you know.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: And so it's like people knew that what Belle Gibson
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: was saying, she had a friend who was there were
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: a couple people in this specific docu series. Her name
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: was Chanelle, and Chanelle was a friend and a community
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: member of Bell. And Chanelle was the first person to say,
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: wait a second, this doesn't add up. Something isn't right here.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: But you're right to your point unless you do something
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: where you know, it's not illegal to lie. Number one,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: it's not illegal to misrepresent yourself. The laws around this
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: are very murky and until you do something to like
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: mess with someone's money, which unfortunately that's not the only
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: thing that matters, but that's sometimes the only thing that
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: can get people held accountable. But Chanelle, you know, I
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: give people credit for looking at this and saying, wait,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: this doesn't make sense. In fact, the friend noticed that
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: when Bell, there was a like a couple month period
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: where she insisted that she she was in remission and
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: then she claimed that everything was back and it was
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: like her child. I found this so fascinating, and I
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: just wanted to mention it was her child's birthday party,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Bell's own child, and she faked a seizure, yeah, at
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: the child's birthday party. And then when someone said, hey,
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: we need to call an ambulance, she like came out
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: of it. And she was like, no, I'm straight.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Let's have some ca right, I'm straight. She now was like,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: what's that.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: That's definitely not how this is supposed to worry. It's like,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: but the thing is so like, no, please go ahead.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to disrupt the flow. I do
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: want to I do want to ask you about how
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: shocking it was for me to find out that she
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: actually had a son. And I also want to talk
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: about her mom and her upbringing, because the only thing
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: that I found really interesting about the dramatization of this
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: story that was inspired by and in Apple Cid or Vinegar,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: was that by the end of it, they really made
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: it look like, you know, it started in her childhood obviously,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: and her mother was a terrible, neglectful mother, and she
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: did not give her the proper care and attention, and
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: that Belle kept making up these big things to get
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: her attention, and her mother didn't care even when she
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: was like, Mom, I just had a heart attacker, like
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: I just went to the hospital, and you know, because
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: and her mom was like you look fine to me,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, so for it. Do you think
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: that it came from that not having the attention from
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: her mom, and it just became part of who she is,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: and it just came became and merged in with an occupation.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, because she was very young when she did
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: all this. By the way, she was like twenty six
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: right when she did this, app I mean that's like
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: you're still that's very very young, and you're ripe to
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: pull a scam. You know, you got all the energy
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: in the world, right, you can tackle anything when you're young, right,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: So she was at the peak of her scam time.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: But so if it's not derailing us, I'd love for
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: you to talk about how it connects with her childhood
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: and what you know about that.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's such a great point because
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: for me, I think in my personal practice, our early
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: childhood experiences, our attachments are you know, our family of
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: origin is the first precipice that kind of can lead
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: us to other harmful things in our life. Right, And
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: so that again, that's one difference between Scamanda and Elizabeth Finch.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: I think that they again were just more criminal, they
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: were more anti social, more scammers. But Belle, I feel
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: to your point, it came from a very inconsistent childhood
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: where she wasn't given the attention she needs and deserves.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: And so what happens is people, at all, human beings,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: we need love, we need attention, we need support. I mean,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: there are really few things we need in this world
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: outside of like connectedness, love and support, like those are
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: our main and safety, right, those are our main needs,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: especially when we're children. And so what children do is
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: they learn to get their needs met and then it
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: becomes I think for Bell it became what I would
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: call a maladaptive method of coping. So she tried everything
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: she could to get the attention from the one person
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: in the world who she's supposed to get that attention from.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Our parents are the only people in the known universe
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: who are the only people responsible for giving us unconditional
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: love and positive regard. And so when we don't get
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: that from our parents, that's where the maladaptive coping comes
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: in in terms of telling these little lies and then ooh,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: maybe it gave her a bump of attention, maybe someone said,
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, we're so sorry, Are you okay? And
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: I think for Belle it did to your your very
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: good question. It started the seed was planted very early,
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: and then she just you know, I talk about epigenetics
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: a lot. Where epigenetics is where our genetics meets our environment.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: And there are certain things now that we know scientifically
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: where we may be born with a predisposition to a
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: certain gene for you know, drugging, alcohol, addiction, or you know,
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: criminality or what have you, but the environment turns that
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: gene on. And so it really is a complex symphony.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: I keep using that word, but to me, that's the
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: best word to describe how this happens. It's a complex
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: symphony of all the right things to create this human
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: being who's so desperate for love, support and attention that
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: she keeps looking for it in the wrong rooms. Right.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's the really, really devastating part of having
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: a mental health condition is that you know, it started
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: somewhere for the most part, I don't know, maybe not everywhere,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: but that it starts from abuse, neglect, all the terrible things.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: And that's where you know, I come in and I'm like,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: you know, I want to have compassion for this person,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: you know, but like, and I do, deep down, but
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: it's awful what they ended up doing. So so having
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: the seed planted there and then having her repeating the
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: cycle of now she has a son, and now he's
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: watching all of this, and she knows what a horrible
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: upbringing she had, and yet here she is. You know,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: her son is terrified. You know his mother fell on
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: the ground and had a seizure at his birthday party.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: And you know, and so but so back to that
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: point is that look at the circumstances of that, right,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: So Belle is in such a desperate need for attention
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: that when her own child is getting the attention that
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: she so desperately wants, she can't handle it. And so
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: what I think happened with Belle is that what the
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: psychologist in this docuseries said. She described pathological lying so well,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: where it starts off as a need. You're trying to
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: get your needs met right, for attention and love, and
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: then you it just like snowballs, because the thing is
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: like one lie leads to another lie leads to another lie.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: And make no mistake, I mean Bell Gibson, there is
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: pathological lying for sure that I think just snowball. And
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: I think that she didn't know how to stop it.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: And the problem is is that any regular grifter would say, Okay,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: so I got away with it. People think that I'm
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: a cancer survivor. I have this app, I have all this.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Let me just go ahead and run with that narrative.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: But just like leave while you're ahead. But like a
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: gambling addict, you're not gonna leave the casino with all
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: the money you just won.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Correct, And that was for me. Where Belle Gibson, like
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: Scamanda and Elizabeth Finch, I'm gonna be frank. I want
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: to punch them both in the face, like so hard.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: If I just I would never but like I really do,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: just want to just give them one good punch. Belle.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: I feel sad for I do feel this sense of
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: like she is not mentally well, even the way that
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: she talks.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to ask you about that, like the
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: interviews and that all the stuff that's online when you're
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: watching her, Melissa, Well, actually, you know what, this is
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: actually a great time to take a break, so hold on.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: When we come back, we're going to talk more about
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Belle Gibson. And this is an amazing collab with your
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: Vish therapist and Drava Darling. So we'll be right back.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. We are back. Thank you for
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: listening to the ads. You know, because of these ads,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: we are able to do what we do. So thank
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: you for supporting our shows. Okay, so Melissa, thank you.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: When you are watching the interviews, the sixty minute interview,
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw the practice interview that
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: she had with her with the Penguin people, all that stuff.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: What are you looking at? How do you size that up?
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: So she has this way of speaking that one of
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: the journalists used the term, and I'm going to use
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: it because it's it's a big word, but it's so
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: descriptive for what she's doing. It's called obfu skating. And
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: to obfuskate means to take a question and to muddy
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: it around because you don't want to give a direct answer.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: You don't know how to give a direct answer, you
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: don't know what, you have no relationship with the truth.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: Belle would do this obfuskating thing where she would talk
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: about something else and she would ramble and just go
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: on and on and on and so I actually, you know,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: in psychology, when you're doing assessments on people, there's something
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: called affect, and our affect refers to the outward expression
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: of emotion as observed by others, And so there's different
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: categories of affect, and so Bell Gibson had an affect
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: that I believed was inappropriate. And inappropriate affect means that
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: there's a disconnect between like an emotional and a psychological experience.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: And I could tell that she had a very I
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: don't know if I would call it inappropriate or I
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: would call it a laybile affect as another descriptor for when,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: like for people with bipolar disorder, when they're kind of
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: up and down, that's kind of known as labile or
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: kind of you know, shifting in and out of moods.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: And so I noticed a lot of very odd affect
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: from her, and the way that she spoke gave me
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: it just I'm going to be honest, It reminded me
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: of doing interviews with people who had psychosis. I don't
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: believe that Bell necessarily had psychosis, but she talked in
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: this way that was so bizarre, and you know, just
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: run on sentences, no beginning, middle and end to thoughts,
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: no punctuation, just you know, kind of round and round
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: she goes. So I think part of that was her
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: need to hide things because she was a liar, but
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: I think part of it also was as her mental health,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, for example, when people start using drugs,
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: you start with a little bit, and then by the
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: time you're addicted, you're using an insane amount that would
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: kill a horse. Right. I feel like with Belle it's
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: the same thing, but just like instead of drugs, it
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: was like mental health. I feel like I watched her
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: mental health just deteriorate, and as the attention got bigger
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: and as the lies got bigger, she I just got
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: the sense that it was like she was like being
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: taken under by the waves of like reality. She didn't
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: know how to manage reality.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: And you know, when you're young like that, you do
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: think you know everything and you can do anything. And
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: so you add that on to everything that you just said,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: and it's explosive. And when she's really getting essentially busted,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: you know, by these interviewers the practice interview, she realized,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: like the jig is up, you know, I mean everything,
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: the jig was up. She knew that, but she still
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: managed to push through with tears with like you said,
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: obfus skating. She even said in the practice interview, She's like, oh,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: I can just deflict. I'll just difflict that and it's like,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: so she knows what she's doing deliberately and that they're
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: in on it kind of thing like a wink wink.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: And then also her ability to cry is also really
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: a phenomenal thing because I think to myself, is she
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: crying because she's busted? Or is she crying because it
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: looks very real? Is she crying Melissa because she's busted?
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Or is she crying because she really believes these lies? Like,
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: so does she believe did she believe that she had
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: brain cancer? And did she believe that it spread? Like
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: where when you're a pathological liar, are you believing for
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: real that this you're convincing yourself? How does that work?
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a good question. Pathological lying. What can
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: end up happening is as people lose touch with reality
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: because the more you lie, the further you become from
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: being able to touch reality. That's just how it is.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: And I think that it's My answer is both. I
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: think it's both that she was being asked hard questions
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: that she couldn't deflect from number one, and I think
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: that freaked her out because she was always able to
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: shuck and jive, she was always able to get away
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: from it. So I think she felt profoundly wounded, truly
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: by the fact that like she could no longer off
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: you skate and get out of this. But I do
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: there is a part of me that also believed that
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: she had lost such touch with reality that she believed
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: like I wonder, I wondered this amy if you gave
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: her a lie detector test, if you believe the lie,
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: that's all you need to pass a lie detector test.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: Do you believe the lie?
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: In fact, people who are con artists, they will, That's
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: how they are able to pass lie detectors. Do you
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: believe the lie? Because if you do, then it's not
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: a lie to you, that's right. And so I think
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: she developed this very tenuous relationship with the truth. And
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: I do think in that interview, the sixty minutes interview
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: with that very hard hitting a journalist, I think she
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: felt like, no, I really I did think that I
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: was sick and I thought I was trying to do
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: a good thing. I do think there's a kernel of
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: truth in that for her.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: And she probably also is hurt because she thinks that
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: she's helped people, and you know, I'm sure that people
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: probably really enjoyed the recipes and enjoyed healthy eating, and
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: that's why it was so popular. I mean, the pictures
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: were amazing and all, you know, but but how much
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: more did it hurt than help? And it's all a
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: complete lie at the expense of Like you said, if
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: she would have just taken all the momentum that she
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: has and all the brilliance that it took to get
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: to where she got without the lies, but she wouldn't
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: have been able. I wonder if she would have even
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: been able to get there because there's nothing driving it.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: The stakes are so low that you know, what's the purpose?
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: You know when you say, so what okay? You said,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: when you're watching your talk, it kind of look like psychosis. Okay,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: So I want to kind of try to ask you
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: a couple questions about that. So when when I'm watching
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: her and I see her eyes like they look like,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: you know, they're getting shifty, they're getting real shifty, and
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: she's starting but you can see a kind of gloss
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: over like she's not really there. And so is that
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: what you mean? Because I don't understand what it means
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: to look at psychosis?
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: So what I mean by what you're describing, that's called dissociation.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: So dissociation is where you take a real life experience
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: that you're feeling and because of Usually a dissociation is
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: something that forms as a result of trauma, and usually
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: as a result of intense trauma. And I will share
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: that's something that I have experienced myself in my PTSD journey.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: And what happens is when people are extremely traumatized and
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: they are immediately for their mental health, they're able to
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: switch off. They're able to almost like shut it down,
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: shut your brain, your body down, and you are all
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: of a sudden feeling nothing. You are not in reality,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: You are in your own world of nothing that's real.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: But it does, it happens, And I think that there's
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: a part of her that dissociates. It's a little bit
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: more than deflection. There's just like a piece of her.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: You're right, The eyes tell such a story where something
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: will click and then it'll just be like she goes
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: from hurt to just being numb. And so I think
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: that Belle, from what I've saw from the interview with
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: her brother and from hearing about the things that happened
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: with her mother before she died, I think that there
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: were real needs there that she learned to shut off,
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: and then when she turned them on, she just looked
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: in the wrong spaces for those needs to be met.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: If that makes sense, It does make sense. It makes
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of sense. Dissociating is a very big trending
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: thing now. I don't know if you've noticed it. A
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: lot of people are using it, and they're saying it wrong.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: Everyone's saying I'm disassociating, you know, they're saying disassociate. And
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: so I just find it interesting when these types of
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: you know, terms become like get in the hands of
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: the people and they misuse them and also mispronounce them.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: I just think it's interesting.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: I know, the tiktokification of like therapy terms has just
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: become so wild. Everyone thinks that they're dissociating, and it's like, no,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: you're not, you're just stressed about and you're having trouble
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: focusing on things. Not everybody is autistic, not everybody has ADHD,
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: not everybody dissociates. So yeah, I think that's the tiktokification
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: of all of that does really irritate me because it
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: leads people to self pathologize, and that's the opposite of
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: what we should be doing. But you know that's well.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Speaking of autism, she accused her brother of having autism.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: And he's in the interview and his eyes are very
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: back and forth. I noticed there's something about him that's
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: going on that I can't quite put my finger on it.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: We're not diagnosing diagnosing anything, but I did feel very
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: bad for him because he said that she used to
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: call him a lot of really cruel names, and that's awful.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: Do you think that her mom it says that her
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: mom died in twenty seventeen and from MS, So do
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: you think that that's a lie allegedly?
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: No. So the one thing I did do a deep
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: dive on is the fact that her mom and the
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: stepdad confirmed this in the interview. So the mom did
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: have MS growing up, when she was growing up, and
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: she did have to do some caretaking. And I believe
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: that this is where that seed was sprouted, right because
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: you know, like Scamanda, when you're around these people, when
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: you're you know, nanning for this kid who has cancer
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: in the case of Scamanda, or you know, all of
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: these people, the one thing they have in common is
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: they've all come up against like a blueprint of how
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: to do this in their real lives, all of them.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: That's one thing they all have in common. And so
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: I think that Bell said that thing about her brother,
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: I believe to get more attention because it's not just
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: about her health issues. She wanted to talk about these
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: other people's health issues. But I do think that her mom,
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: the stepdad, said that MS wasn't as bad as Belle
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: made it seem. However, I do think there was some
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: real damage done there in terms of her little psyche learning, like, oh, well,
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: when you're sick, people bring you food. Well, when you're sick,
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: people give you attention, which I just have to say
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: side note here, The thing probably that makes me the
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: most angry watching all of these is that I got
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: zero attention. No one gives toots, no one brings me meals,
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: no one has given me a dollar, which by the way,
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't want it, right like if people are asking
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: for money, that's also kind of a red flag. But like,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: no one has ever done anything like any of this
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: for me, and I'm like that, And that's what I
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: think also GIRs cancer survivors is that most of us
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: don't ever receive this level of soviety and when you receive,
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: and that really is the currency that matters most to us.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: It's not money, it's support and love. And so when
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: these people are getting so much and we get like nothing,
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: it's like, what the hell is that fair?
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's not balanced. It doesn't make sense. No,
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: And also the people who really have all Right, I'm
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: gonna send you some factor meals with my code drama.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: I love that. Love that.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: No, you want a castrole, you know, I mean, you're
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: like Vicky Gun but you just want a for Brooks'
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: fake cancer but you're actually a real person. Oh da interesting.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But so I think that Belle definitely learned at
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: an early age that if you want to get needs met,
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: it has to be through sickness. Because the other thing
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: with Belle is that when one of the journalists did
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: a deep dive into her, they found out in two
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: thousand and nine she was on this skateboard forum and
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: for people listening to us, unless you're our age, you're
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: not going to understand. Though crazy early aughts like internet
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: whatever it was, it was such a wild West, bizarre time,
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: and she was on the skate forum. It was called Skateroo,
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: and one of her former friends on the skate forum
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: developed a brain tumor, the same one that she went
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: on to claim that she had.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Oh and so right, right, right right? I forgot about that, yes.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: But look here's my point, So, Belle, when on these
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: skate forums after and by the way, this the friend died,
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: because when you really have a brain tumor that's stage four,
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: you don't survive it. There's no surviving. And so her
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: friend died. And then in mid two thousand and nine,
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: after the friend died, she started posting crazy stories about
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: needing open heart surgery. And there was something just so
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: little that stuck out of my brain. She would ride
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: on this forum to the skater guys about if you
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: don't send me flowers, you're dead.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: WHOA really?
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And here's what I'm pointing out about this is like,
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you know anything about the skater community,
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: but like they're not who you go to for support
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: for health issues.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: How dare you categorize skaters as being cold hearted? Oh, Melissa, no, no, no, no, listen.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: I hung out with skaters in high school. But what
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: I mean is that they're not the most they're not
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: emotionally sororidetive group of folks, is my point.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: They want to shred, Okay, leave them alone.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: They want to smoke weed, they want to drink their forties,
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: they want to shred, They want to you know whatever,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: God bless, do your thing. Who cares. But my point
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: is is that Belle kept finding herselves in rooms quite
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: literally where she didn't belong and then she find she
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: just happens to stumble upon this app and then I
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: just think it gave her her whole life what she
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: was looking for. But also the skater part. Did you
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: see pictures from her back then?
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: She was like a totally dack hair and yeah.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she looked like, you know, an early aughts emo
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: skater chick, like black hair, you know, the blunt bangs
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: and like, you know, party, you know that sort of thing.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: And so I what I gathered from that too, which
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: was so interesting, is just that she's been trying on
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: persona is because Belle doesn't know who Belle is. She
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: really has some serious identity issues. Because anyone who can
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: kind of go in and out of identities like that
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: is looking for something usually and listen, teenage years, that's a.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Total for what you do absolutely, yeah, but if you.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: Carrying that Mallard right and right, and so this is
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: where a tendency kind of turns into disorder when it
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: becomes like this maladaptive pattern that it kind of worsens
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: over time. So that's where like a narcissistic trait or
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: tendency or like antisocial traits maybe will cross into disorder.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: That's kind of the defining characteristic.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: And this is another great time to take a quick break.
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: These cancer scammers thrive off of ye, thrive off of
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: your fears and your anxieties and the fact that we
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: have no control in our lives, and humans hate that.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: Everything human beings do basically is to gain some sort
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: of sense of control. That's what eating disorders are all about.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: I'm going to control what I put in my body.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: I'm going to control what I don't put in my body.
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: So I think that the worst thing that this does
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: is it takes advantage of vulnerable population of humans who
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: are just desperate to try to gain some control over
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: some really challenging stuff.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: One of the things that was in the dramatization about
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: Bell Gibson was a whole other aspect of how this
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: industry of what you just talked about takes advantage their
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: vampires and how they take advantage of people who are vulnerable,
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: not even just with cancer, but with emotional you know,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: situations and and so. And they're around every corner because
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: we're always looking to better ourselves, looking for another alternative
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: way to heal ourselves physically or mentally and emotionally. And
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: you you know, you open up your phone, you're gonna
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: it'll be right there in front of your face. You
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: turn the corner, it'll be right there. It'll be at
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: the bookstore, anywhere. And if you are vulnerable to that,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: it will find you, and you will find it. And
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: it really is terrifying. And that's why I think when
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: we look at what these scam artists have done, it's
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: you feel so horrible for the people that have been
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: hurt because they didn't ask for that. You know, they're
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: just looking for answers, they're looking for healing, and it's
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: like you know, wolves and sheep's clothing, you know, and
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: it's just that's exactly right, terrifying.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: And and that's why I'm glad I have a very
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: loud voice and a platform, because I want people to
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: know that I was one of those people who was fooled.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: I was one of those people who was harmed, and
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: I have committed my life to making sure that I
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: advocate for myself and others so that never ever happens again.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: I want everyone listening to this to know you're you know,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: you can't eat your way out of this, you can't
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: juice your way out of this. It's you know, I
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: just want people to try to be their best selves
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: and not fall prey to this. But it really is
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: so easy when you're so vulnerable. And so if anything too,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: sharing my story it just helps to validate maybe some
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: things that some people are going through. People look at
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: me and they think, oh, well, you're really smart. Well
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: I felt for it too, and I am smart. I
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: taken microbiology.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: I know it has nothing to do with intelligence, you know, No,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: it really doesn't, because everybody's looking for the thing that
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: you were, and what everyone looks for is right an answer.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: And that's right a way to just like and not
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: just people who have cancer, people who are healthy, like,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: how do I prevent this? How do I age gracefully
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: and you know keep you know, my health and the
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: health of my family, And so it's such a an
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: area that is so rife for scammers it just makes
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: me crazy. And so for me, red flags are if
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: people are asking something of you. I think that's really
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: important to note red flags, Like if all of a sudden,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: I went on my podcast and I was like, hey,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: contribute to this, or hey do this or whatever, like
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: I'm giving information for free because I actually want to
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: help people. When you you know, you go on Instagram
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: and you see these therapists or these coaches that are like,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: well buy this, and it's like, I mean, okay, listen,
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: we all have to make a living. But I think
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: what I'm telling people is you have to be so
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: thoughtful and check run it by somebody. That's the other
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: thing is because this happened to me because I was
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: isolated and alone and I didn't want to share with
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: anybody my fears and my stressors. If you share with someone, hey,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: this is what I'm afraid of, and this is what
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: I've been doing. People Like, if you're stuck in like
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: a little area of being blinded by something, people outside
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: can see and help pluck you out of it. And
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: that's why it's so important to have supports for things
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: like cults too, right, to have people to say yeah.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: Immediately thought that yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: I think if you have good trusted friends, loved ones,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: people who you can really trust to say hey, here's
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: what I'm thinking, and then they can say, you know what,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: that's a little wacky. We got to look at this. Yah.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: I think that's really really important. But one thing I
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: wanted to point out too, is that one of the
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: main indicators between like I know, we talked about Bell
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: Gibson more framed as like a mental health issue versus
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: like Scamanda, who was more like criminal. One of the
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: major differences in what is like a mental health issue,
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: which is versus what's like psychopathy. Psychopathy is a term
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: for like sociopaths, psychopath that you know, those are like
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: kind of things that regular like the tiktokification has made
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: really popular, but essentially psychopathy. The one thing you have
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: to have with psychopathy is lack of empathy. And I
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: think that Belle definitely had a lack of empathy for
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: other people because she was so self focused. Like her
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: narcissistic traits and tendencies, I think took it to another
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: level and she stopped caring, like even about her son
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: and his special day and like it was all about her.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: And I think the same thing with Scamanda, which which
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: is like first command, I mean, the clear and persistent
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: pattern of just like absolutely no empathy some of the
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: other just like a couple of other things that I
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: just wanted to put out there is so typical psychopathic
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: traits are like manipulating, exploiting, or violating rights of others,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: lack of concern, guilt, or remorse for their actions, and
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: that's definitely something I feel like I noticed with Bell
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: like all of them for sure, but with Belle too,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: there was like this very stubborn I'm not you know,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: like she didn't want to no irresponsible behavior and disregard
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: for typical social behavior, relationship difficulties, and repeatedly breaking the law.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: Those are kind of like the main characteristics for excuse me,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: for psychopathy. And when you look at all the all
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: that definition, it's like, wow, that kind of describes them
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: all in a lot of ways, doesn't it.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: It does, And you had kind of separated them in
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: that you feel like Scamanda and Elizabeth Finch are more well,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: you did say that they're more of a criminal as
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: opposed I think.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: They were more devious, yeah, more criminally devious. I think
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: they were more more well aware of their actions and
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: they were more behaving like true criminals. Whereas Bell, I
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: think she has all of these same criteria, but I
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: think hers comes more from a place of I don't
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: want to say trauma, but just like what we had
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: talked about with her upbringing and listen, I'm sure if
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: we looked into Scamanda and if we looked into Elizabeth
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: Finch their childhood, I guarantee there would be stuff there
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: like this does not crop out of nowhere, right, But
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying that I think that Bell there's more
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: of a mental health component, whereas the other two. I
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: just get the sense that the other two were just like,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: I know what I'm doing, I don't care. I need
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: the money for this, I need the attention for that,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: I need the career and whatever. It was much more
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: self serving, where I think Belle really thought she was
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: helping people and she just couldn't, Like she just couldn't
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: reconcile the fact that no, you're actually hurting people. She
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: was like, no, not me.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, interesting, I wouldn't have seen that had you not
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: pointed that out.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: And listen. I could be wrong. That's just my interpretation.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: That's what I've observed. I would love to hear what
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: other people think.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: That just makes sense. It completely makes sense. Gosh, it's
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: so uh, it's it's horrifying, and it's also really really sad.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: You know, it's sad to see someone just straight up busted,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: you know, and then trying to wiggle their way out
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: of it. It's so ungomfortable. But you're like, also, you
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: did this, you need to be held accountable, and I
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: mean you have to, you know. But when she's in
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: these interviews and she's talking and as you described earlier,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: how she never finishes a sentence and it's kind of
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: silicle and she's obfuscating. Well, how I have to guess
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: that the reason why no one ever saw that before
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: is just because all the relationships around her were really
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: professional and the ones that actually knew her didn't believe her,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: and she was really, as you said, very isolated from everyone,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: with the exception of her partner, who was the person
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: that was really raising her child. So like that person,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: you know, we didn't really get into that. That person
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: has their own story on this dramatization. But so I
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: don't really know the real story. But it's like no
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: one ever really knew her, knew her. You were just
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: getting her stick and her.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: Right, you know, Socause put it in the But I
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: think that I think that was because Belle didn't know Belle,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: Like you can't know someone who doesn't know themselves, and
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: so but amy one thing we forgot to mention that.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: I just thank god. I look through my notes, remember
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: when Belle had like aggressive and volatile fights with her
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: mom and she moved, yeah out and she is thirteen
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: years old to live with some old man down the road, right, yeah.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: And I remember the brother being like, what on earth
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: is this about? Number one? And number two? It was like,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: was nobody worried about why an older man would have
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: wanted a thirteen year old child living with him? And
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: it makes me wonder that as someone who was so
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: desperate for attention and love, it does make me wonder
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: what happened behind the closed doors in that house.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: It's just absolutely absolutely and she he had a mother
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: and a stepfather at that time.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: Right, It's like, so you have a mom, a stepdad,
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: and a brother, why on earth are you moving down
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: the street at age thirteen to live with an old
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: man and everyone is just okay with us. I will
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: never underna in my.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: Life, So why didn't they call the police? You know,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, at the very least.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: Thank you. So it's like I think that the point too,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: is that there's always so much that we don't know,
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: even in situations where we think we know, where there's documentaries,
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: it's like, what happened in her childhood, what happened in
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: that home? What happened to make her leave her own
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: home to live with that older man. I just think
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: it all creates such a rich tapestry for exactly what
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: happened to happen. It sure does, because imagine if she
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: had a mother who was like, listen, I know we're
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: not getting along, but I love you. We're going to
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: work this out. Let's go to therapy. Let's you know,
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: you can't just move down the street to live with
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: some gross old man, right who runs a thirteen year
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: old living with him? That's not like his relative. That's
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: so odd. But also I really do wonder for the
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: people listening to this in Australia, like, yeah, what what
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: what would people have made of that in the neighborhood,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: Like if that happened here. I feel like people would
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: be protesting, people would call the police. I I you know,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: I just don't understand how that was allowed to happen.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: But well, obviously, you know in their neighborhood that people
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: clearly didn't have neighborly relations. They probably didn't really even
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: know each other, didn't care, and nobody knew.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah, maybe that's true. And then at
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: the end of this I also read in my notes
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: she popped up pretending she was an Ethiopian community member.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I did not believe that. Yes, okay, okay, okay,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Rachel. Yeah, And that really sealed it all
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: in a perfect little That was the bow and the
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: cherry on the top of all this, because it just
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: shows you, as you said, I mean, it's so what
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: is that? I mean, is that an identity crisis? She
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: doesn't know who she is? Is she like what would
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: you call that? She was a completely different person after
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: all this went away, you guys, She's moved on with
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: her life and and there's footage of her talking to
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: somebody about raising awareness for the Ethiopian community and speaking Ethiopian,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: and she's in their traditional garb and it's like the
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: Belle Gibson Whole Pantry Book. Everything you would know her
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: to be is completely a RaSE. And this is a
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: totally different persona. So what is that is that? That's
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: not multiple personalities? Because that's so what do you call that?
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, not that we're diagnosing, but if you were
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: to make a guess, so.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: I call that a mix of She has no identity whatsoever.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: And her whole shtick was just like taking over like
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: the identities of you. I called it cosplaying right, So
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: at first she cause played like a skater chick, and
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: then she cause played like Weaneth Paltrow, and then she
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: cause played and evey open community member, which like, as
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: a white woman, are you out of your mind? That
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: is so freaking offensive, It's ridiculous. And but you know,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: I look at it as two things. I look at
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: it as she is just so desperate for a sense
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: of belonging, a sense of community and a sense of belonging.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: Also that makes her feel in some sort of sense
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: of identity. Yes, yes, And but there there's another part
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: of it that you know is criminal, in that she
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: knows she's not Ethiopian. Ethiopian, I mean, you just made
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: your fortune on being a basic white woman, so it's
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: like she didn't forget. So to me, this is where
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: the weird amalgamation of Bell Gibson comes in, where it's
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: like part attention seeking, identity crisis, and then part psychopathology
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: a little bit, I would say, or I mean, you
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: can't have a little bit of psychopathology. It's like being
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: a little bit pregnant. But yeah, I'm trying to be
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: cautious with my words.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand, Yeah.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: I think to be honest, it's it's just a combination
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: of both. And it did remind me of Rachel Dolizol,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: who I watched her. Are you familiar with that woman?
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, I watched her documentary and it was interesting and
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: the only the only parallels all draw here is that
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: Rachel Dolizol truly believes like she's a white woman from Utah,
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: but she believed that she was transracial. That's what she said.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: Like and being transracial that's not right now a construct
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: that is widely accepted in any way, shape or form
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: in the communities of just like education, that's not an
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: accepted theory. But I think, yeah, okay, but I think
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: that when it's like Rachel and Belle, they both have
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: this odd thing of like, no, you can't tell me,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: like this is how I feel, this is how I
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: feel inside. I don't know. It's just it's also bizarre.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: It actually makes me want to go back and maybe
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: do something about Rachel dolis all. But yeah, Belle, I
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: think it was a mix of things, some narcissism, some psychopathy,
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: and for sure some trauma and need for attention. Kids
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: don't care what attention they get if it's negative or positive.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: Like if a kid is not getting love and they're
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: going to act out because they don't care if it's
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: positive or negative attention. And I think Belle sometimes I
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: think it's the same thing. I don't know that she
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: cares if it's positive or negative in any way, shape
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: or form.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: Well why don't we you know, let's give last thoughts.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: And I mean, I think you've done an unbelievable job
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: at this. I just I also don't want to leave
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: any anything off the table that you want to, you know,
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: to bring to it. You did do a wonderful job
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: at explaining some red flags, which is a great way
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: to wrap that up as well. Is there anything else
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: that you want to point out from the documentary or
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: from what you've discovered about Belle Gibson.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: I think I think that you know. Just what I'll
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: say is that all human beings, we all have our stuff,
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: and we all have the capability to be a Bell Gibson.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: If I'm being honest, it's just a matter of what
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: do we do with our needs and our desires. Like,
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: for example, growing up, I didn't get you know, lover attention,
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: and I chose not to be a Bell Gibson. I
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: don't know if I chose it or I just was resilient,
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: or I have no idea, but I think the message
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: is that if you're engaging with somebody and it just
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: doesn't feel right, please listen.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: To your gut. Because the great advice.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: The people in this scenario who extricated themselves were people
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: who started to feel something's odd here, and then they
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: listened to that gut. I felt like something was off,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: but I was too afraid to listen to and so
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: I think that our intuition when we're centered is never wrong.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: Now listen trauma. Trauma can affect our intuition right, It
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: can screw things up, and that's how this happens too.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: But like, if you just feel weird about something that
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: you're in, whether it's a community group, a Facebook group,
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: a food group, like whatever it is, just please listen,
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: honor that and at least talk to somebody you love
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: and you trust about Hey, I'm having some of these concerns,
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: whether it be for myself or with this group. Can
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: I ask your opinion? What do you think? Because secrets
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: keep us sick. And I think that's the thing too,
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: is like if we're trying to get heal, if we're
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: trying to heal and get well, do it out loud
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: where people can say, hey, I noticed this, or hey,
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: maybe you're missing this or you know. I think those
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: would be my final thoughts for this whole thing.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: Wow, secrets keep us sick. That's a great way to
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: end it. Melissa Reich, Amy Phillips to the table. I'm kidding,
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: what a journey this was. Thank you so much to
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: your listeners, to my listeners who were listening, and obviously
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: you can find me over anywhere you get your podcasts
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: twice a week, usually Tuesdays and Thursdays. Sometimes I pop
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: Monday and Wednesday in there. And then of course over
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: on patreon dot com, slash Drama Darling and then Drama
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: Darling on Instagram. Melissa.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So you can watch the full video of this
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: on my patreon if you would like to not just
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: listen to Amy and I, if you would like to
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: see our beautiful faces, which Amy, your light is always
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: much better than mine. I'm well, I like light pretty much.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: I've got a you know, I've got a light structure
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: going on here.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: I know, and I every time I think I get
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: my light where I look at you and I'm like, no,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: back to the drawing boards.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: I'll send you what I have if you're interested.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, so please check this out on Patreon. Also, this
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: podcast will be coming out on Tuesday, and you can
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: find me everywhere on social media. You're a bish therapist.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: Please check me out, especially Patreon. We have a lot Amy,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: you and I, We have a lot of Darling bish cross. Yes,
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: people really love when we do this. But you know, Amy,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: can I ask you one last question?
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, I am lying about everything. I am not a
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: podcaster and I am not a comedian and I'm kidding.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: Guess wouldn't that be wild? No? I mean about yeah, yeah, right,
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: being fabulous you're not lying about that. With the search
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: for Instagram's worst con artists versus you watched Apple Cider Vinegar,
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: I really didn't watch that. For people listen, would you
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: recommend like one over the other?
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, absolutely, watch the documentary, I mean, because you're
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: going to get the facts. Yeah, you got to go
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: with the documentary, absolutely.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: But you still liked Apple Cidervener Girl is is That's something.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: It just is an incredibly well done series, and it
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: is really sad and heartbreaking and very very difficult to watch.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: I will say that, and a trigger warning for anyone
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: who is a cancer survivor. I almost don't know. I mean,
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know how you did this, Melissa, Like I
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: would find it extremely difficult to talk about this if
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: I was in your shoes or anyone who has struggled
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: with their health, because to watch it unfold, to hear it,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: it's really disgusting. And then when you have had that,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's very difficult, and especially the dramatization,
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: because it does such a great job though at telling
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: the story about real cancer and what people deal with,
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: and I mean to the level of which they're able to,
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: you know, on Netflix, you know, and they have different
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: angles throughout the entire story, really different the you know,
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: the father is completely against what you know, one of
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: the daughters doing by going to this Hirsh Institute with
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: you know, and and of course you get all the
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: different aspects completely dramatized, and it's great and the acting
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: is phenomenal. It's really really well done. So from that perspective,
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: I would say yes, but I wouldn't just go to
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: that and not watch the documentary because the documentary is
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: also like only two episodes and it's pretty phenomenal. Yeah.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm so I'm you had a flawless wrap
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: up going, but I just had to ask you that
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: one last question because I was just so curious to
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: see if I should watch it. And also, I know
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: people appreciate a trigger warning, so fellow cancer thrivers, use
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: your best judgment if you're going to watch that.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, Well, thank you, Amy, I'm so happy to have
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: done this. You what I