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Essential Skills to Prepare for a Clinic with Steph K Equestrian · Equestrian Tea Time

• 0:01
  Isabeau Solace: Hello everybody, welcome back.
• 0:04
  Isabeau Solace: We're so happy to have you here Today myself, Isabeau Solace and and co-host, emma Jenkinson of Emma Jenkinson Dressage.
• 0:12
  Isabeau Solace: We talk to Steph K Bradshaw.
• 0:14
  Isabeau Solace: Her business is called Steph K Equestrian.
• 0:17
  Isabeau Solace: She's located in Willard, missouri.
• 0:20
  Isabeau Solace: She is a positive, reinforcement and force-free, ethical equestrian coach and trainer.
• 0:26
  Isabeau Solace: Steph is a fantastic presenter, very well-educated and very well-spoken.
• 0:31
  Isabeau Solace: She's a great instructor.
• 0:33
  Isabeau Solace: She also does clinics.
• 0:35
  Isabeau Solace: You can find more information about her programs at skequinecom.
• 0:41
  Isabeau Solace: Steph is a lifelong student of the horse, passionate about elevating industry standards and improving the lives of our equine partners.
• 0:48
  Isabeau Solace: She has a background in neuroscience, numerous professional certifications and experience in wildlife and exotic sanctuaries.
• 0:57
  Isabeau Solace: She brings a real-life perspective while teaching a trauma-informed, force-free and empowering approach to working with animals.
• 1:05
  Isabeau Solace: In her clinics she can teach things like ethical foundations, teaching animals life skills and cooperative care, haltering, leading farrier and vet handling, trailer loading.
• 1:17
  Isabeau Solace: She also teaches riding ethically biomechanics, saddle fit safety and riding that benefits the horse, biomechanics, saddle fit, safety and riding that benefits the horse.
• 1:28
  Isabeau Solace: She teaches ethical performance competing with positive reinforcement, staying ethical in the show ring and alternative competition options.
• 1:33
  Isabeau Solace: She teaches clinics that emphasizes having fun with positive reinforcement, including equine agility, mounted archery, scent work, hiking and enrichment games.
• 1:43
  Isabeau Solace: She also has experience with ethical animal work, balancing partnership and profit in lesson programs, therapy work, tourism, entertainment and ranching, and finally, non-equine positive reinforcement.
• 1:58
  Isabeau Solace: She teaches ethical training for dogs, cats, farm animals, birds, aquatics, ex aquatics, exotics and more so you can find out more about Steph on her website, skequestriancom.
• 2:11
  Isabeau Solace: And here's our conversation.
• 2:12
  Isabeau Solace: Thanks for listening, steph.
• 2:15
  Isabeau Solace: How are things out in your neck of the woods?
• 2:17
  Steph Bradshaw: You know it's going pretty well.
• 2:19
  Steph Bradshaw: Right now it is Missouri, so we could have snow tomorrow, who knows?
• 2:23
  Steph Bradshaw: But I think spring is here, um, and I think we are in for some good weather, for a little bit at least nice.
• 2:32
  Isabeau Solace: I see on your uh, steph K question page that you are what spring 2025 educational outreach.
• 2:39
  Isabeau Solace: Is that a clinic tour?
• 2:40
  Isabeau Solace: Tell us what you're, uh, you're doing.
• 2:43
  Steph Bradshaw: yeah, I went to Colorado and Washington and then I'm working on getting some trips together to Oregon, northern California, and then possibly doing some East Coast.
• 2:57
  Steph Bradshaw: I have some clients sort of scattered throughout there, so we'll see if we can get a big enough group together that we can maybe make something happen over there too.
• 3:06
  Isabeau Solace: that's cool, you big time mover into shaker.
• 3:08
  Isabeau Solace: We had reached out to you after been uh, some talk online of somebody who had had their horse taken back or they were working with it and a rescue had taken it back.
• 3:19
  Isabeau Solace: Since then, there's been opposite problems.
• 3:21
  Isabeau Solace: People have gotten in trouble for, uh, two different people a vet and a cutting horse trader for actually knocking horses to the ground and kicking them in the head.
• 3:30
  Isabeau Solace: Oh my God.
• 3:30
  Isabeau Solace: So it looks like there's trouble all around.
• 3:34
  Isabeau Solace: My initial idea was for us to chat about the difficulties of people who are trying as much as possible to use positive reinforcement or a good balance of educated pressure release.
• 3:46
  Isabeau Solace: You know the criticism we come up against about the fact that we don't get results fast enough, or we don't get enough results, or you know our two-year-olds are not ready for the future like they really ought to be.
• 3:59
  Isabeau Solace: So you've got this nice experience traveling around and stuff With the people you talk to in your clinics.
• 4:05
  Isabeau Solace: What's their opinion and their experience about how fast they get results with positive reinforcement, or what are their expectations?
• 4:14
  Steph Bradshaw: um.
• 4:14
  Steph Bradshaw: So I think really, with positive reinforcement the timeline and efficiency is pretty comparable, if not faster than that of traditional, like negative reinforcement techniques.
• 4:28
  Steph Bradshaw: That said, just like with negative reinforcement techniques, you can cut corners and make it happen super fast, and then you'll probably fall into that trap of you know you get to the wrong place faster.
• 4:43
  Steph Bradshaw: Yes, you do Right, and you can do that with positive reinforcement too.
• 4:50
  Steph Bradshaw: But you can also take your time and go slow and, just like with negative reinforcement, it's really up to the trainer.
• 4:58
  Steph Bradshaw: Some of it has to do with trainer skill.
• 5:01
  Steph Bradshaw: I will say that's a very common thing is that people, you know they start out with a certain amount of traditional negative reinforcement experience and so they're able to accomplish these behavior goals and training milestones fairly efficiently.
• 5:15
  Steph Bradshaw: And then they start to implement positive reinforcement training and they get frustrated when they find that there's a bit of a learning curve.
• 5:22
  Steph Bradshaw: It doesn't every.
• 5:24
  Steph Bradshaw: All those skills don't automatically transfer over.
• 5:26
  Steph Bradshaw: And so you know, if you have a decade or two decade or multiple decades of experience with negative reinforcement, of course you're gonna be able to get things done faster with negative reinforcement than you would be with something that you're just now trying if you only have a week or a month or a year of positive reinforcement experience.
• 5:45
  Steph Bradshaw: So I think that that's something that we run into a lot is that sort of misinterpretation of thinking that you know people thinking that positive reinforcement takes longer because they aren't giving credit to all of the time and experience that went into learning their negative reinforcement skills.
• 6:05
  Steph Bradshaw: So that's a very common thing I run into.
• 6:09
  Steph Bradshaw: That said, when I look at the trainers who are skilled and have experience and have accomplished fluency with positive reinforcement training, I see them get behavior goals that would take traditional negative reinforcement trainers, even the experienced ones, a lot longer to accomplish.
• 6:29
  Steph Bradshaw: It tends to be a lot more efficient.
• 6:30
  Steph Bradshaw: With the exception of things that are conflict behaviors, so things that cause pain or discomfort or fear, things that make the horse uncomfortable or, you know, cause them some sort of pain.
• 6:44
  Steph Bradshaw: Those things are typically a lot easier to accomplish with force-based methods and you run into more setbacks with positive reinforcement because you're giving the horse a voice.
• 6:55
  Steph Bradshaw: You're giving them the option to say no, that doesn't feel good, or no, that scares me, I don't want to do that, whereas with more force-based methods, you know you can force them into doing something a lot faster than you can coerce them into doing something, but what you're probably well, hopefully, already thinking is the same thing I'm thinking, which is we probably shouldn't be doing those things in the first place.
• 7:18
  Steph Bradshaw: Anyway, yes, yeah, I don't really care which method is faster.
• 7:24
  Steph Bradshaw: I vote we use neither.
• 7:25
  Steph Bradshaw: We use neither.
• 7:27
  Isabeau Solace: Yes, yeah, no.
• 7:31
  Isabeau Solace: I agree with pretty much everything there.
• 7:33
  Isabeau Solace: It's very tricky.
• 7:35
  Isabeau Solace: I think there was in the beginning.
• 7:37
  Isabeau Solace: I'm going to have to go back now 20 years ago, when the internet came up, which is when a lot of stuff it seems like a lot of stuff began when the internet began, just because that's when it got disseminated.
• 7:47
  Isabeau Solace: There was definitely a bit of a narrative put out there by people in the early 2000s that positive reinforcement was very forgiving, that you could make mistakes and it would be fine and that you could accomplish things very, very quickly.
• 8:02
  Isabeau Solace: And after time you know, like you said, it's something that it's a tool like any other that requires skill and often requires making a lot of mistakes, which is not, which is not fun until you get good at it.
• 8:17
  Isabeau Solace: I'm such a big fan of the remote learning.
• 8:20
  Isabeau Solace: I've worked with so many people online and done clinics remotely and done educational remotely, and I was actually just cleaning up a video hard drive I have, which has the amount of boring hours of me walking horses around in circles and doing all of this stuff, but it is tremendously educational to video yourself.
• 8:39
  Isabeau Solace: Watch yourself doing that same thing 50 times in a row.
• 8:42
  Isabeau Solace: When you go teach these clinics.
• 8:44
  Isabeau Solace: Do you have a lot of people who are working remotely or are they only getting instruction at clinics?
• 8:51
  Isabeau Solace: Because I find a big divide between people who really only want to have a live instructor in person.
• 8:59
  Isabeau Solace: And if they do it that way, then they're only really getting instruction a few times a year.
• 9:06
  Isabeau Solace: If they're doing a clinic, and then you know, I just find that having the extra person there, really even with instructors that I've been in their program for 20 years, I can't get this done and my instructors really decided we need to work on that.
• 9:19
  Isabeau Solace: So we're automatically in a tight spot.
• 9:23
  Isabeau Solace: That doesn't happen when it's just me and the camera and I can say well, you know, this exercise isn't working.
• 9:30
  Isabeau Solace: We're just not going to do this right now.
• 9:31
  Isabeau Solace: We'll go back a little later.
• 9:33
  Isabeau Solace: So how do you find that divide between the people?
• 9:36
  Isabeau Solace: Or is there a divide between people who do home study or live study?
• 9:42
  Isabeau Solace: And are people resistant?
• 9:44
  Isabeau Solace: My impression is that people are resistant to the possibly painful process of videoing themselves and watching what they're doing.
• 9:52
  Steph Bradshaw: Yes, yes, absolutely.
• 9:55
  Steph Bradshaw: I think you bring up some really, really good points.
• 9:57
  Steph Bradshaw: I would say there is, you know, there might be a bit of a divide.
• 10:02
  Steph Bradshaw: I'd say the majority of the people I work with are doing a combination, where they try to get as much in person as possible but there are limited resources in their area and so that means, you know, coming to clinics and doing like that, in person education when they can, but then also trying to do virtual as much as they can.
• 10:26
  Steph Bradshaw: I have found that with positive reinforcement there's, you know, you have that steep learning curve in the beginning, but once you get the hang of the principles you can really apply it pretty effectively on your own up until you reach something that you just can't figure out the antecedent arrangement on Um, and so a lot of times with my virtual clients I find that we do a lot of education in the beginning, like we're doing hour and a half, two hour, even three hour consults, you know, a few times a week for two or three weeks, and then we go a couple of weeks before they meet with three weeks, and then we go a couple weeks before they meet with me again, and then it might be a month before they meet with me again.
• 11:09
  Steph Bradshaw: And usually I encourage people when they ask you know, when should we rebook?
• 11:14
  Steph Bradshaw: Maybe if I was a better business woman I would be like you need to rebook in three days or a week or something like that.
• 11:21
  Steph Bradshaw: But I usually say go try what I, what we've talked about, you know.
• 11:25
  Steph Bradshaw: We discuss where they're at some exercises and options going forward and I say go, practice it, go give it a shot and book your next visit or your next consult.
• 11:35
  Steph Bradshaw: Whenever, you either accomplish everything and you've run out of things to do you're not sure, like what to do next or you reach that point where it's not working and you can't figure out why and you know before you get frustrated with it, go ahead and book that consult and we can talk it out and come up with some solutions.
• 11:54
  Steph Bradshaw: And I find that early on that's you know they go out to do one session and within 10 minutes they're like I need to call Steph back Gotcha Right.
• 12:06
  Steph Bradshaw: And then after a few consults, we iron out a lot of the details and we fine tune things and it's very individualistic.
• 12:13
  Steph Bradshaw: I mean I have like I have my online course and I want to say it's like 10 or 15 hours of instruction, which is a lot, and I do think it's fairly comprehensive, but I don't think everybody needs all of it.
• 12:28
  Steph Bradshaw: It's usually just a few pieces that we have to put together for the specific horse and the specific human in that specific environment and situation.
• 12:37
  Steph Bradshaw: And once we iron out those details, then they go a few training sessions before they're like, okay, what do I do next?
• 12:45
  Steph Bradshaw: Or they run into something that they're not sure how to address, and that's when they call back.
• 12:50
  Steph Bradshaw: But again, after a few you know, between like 10 to 15 consults, they're usually pretty good on their own and from there I'm usually just getting updates of you know, sending me pictures or videos going look what we did, look what we figured out.
• 13:07
  Steph Bradshaw: Yeah, not really needing the long term follow up, which I think is great.
• 13:14
  Steph Bradshaw: And I think that's where I also see people who do that sort of intensive virtual consults in the beginning and then once they get the hang of things and they get to a comfortable place with their horse, they sort of go off on their own, do their own thing for a while, but they still might try to get to a clinic if there's one in their area.
• 13:31
  Steph Bradshaw: So that's where I see you know those people that don't do a lot of virtual consults.
• 13:36
  Steph Bradshaw: It's usually because they either did a lot in the beginning or maybe they had some hands-on instruction in the beginning, but they already have a handle on things and so now they're sort of on their own and they just do the clinics every now and then, um.
• 13:50
  Steph Bradshaw: But then there are also people that do regular virtual consults, um, and sometimes I'll have trainers that have me out to their barn for a clinic, so I'm working with a group of clients that are all in the same program, um.
• 14:04
  Steph Bradshaw: So that's always a lot of fun, um.
• 14:07
  Steph Bradshaw: And yeah, but I would say I don't know.
• 14:12
  Steph Bradshaw: I don't know that there's a huge divide that I've noticed as far as, like, the virtual versus the hands-on only.
• 14:17
  Steph Bradshaw: But I do think the people that do the intensive virtual training in the beginning or have like a lot of hands-on in the beginning tend to have a much better grasp on all things horsemanship and how to approach and problem solve with their horses, like that's.
• 14:36
  Steph Bradshaw: That's a big difference.
• 14:38
  Steph Bradshaw: When I'm teaching at my clinics, you know the people that have tried to DIY and teach themselves everything and be self taught.
• 14:46
  Steph Bradshaw: They typically have some things down really well, but we find those little pieces where they're really needing professional guidance.
• 14:52
  Steph Bradshaw: But then the people that have done a lot of virtual programs.
• 14:59
  Steph Bradshaw: That's where we tend to be focusing more on some of the like more advanced fun stuff and like applications to really specific you know types of writing or types of you know trick training or things like that, rather than the basics and the mechanics of the clicker training.
• 15:12
  Isabeau Solace: Gotcha All right.
• 15:13
  Isabeau Solace: Thanks for answering that.
• 15:14
  Isabeau Solace: That was very detailed, thank you.
• 15:15
  Isabeau Solace: So more than once saw clinicians walk in, ask a writer or somebody to do ABC and immediately become extremely stuck.
• 15:24
  Isabeau Solace: How do you handle those more difficult?
• 15:26
  Steph Bradshaw: partnerships.
• 15:27
  Steph Bradshaw: I think my best advice for people that are in that situation where they feel like they aren't getting as much out of the clinics or they feel like they aren't yeah, I guess, like they feel like they're not getting as much out of it I would say, at least for me, with my clinic style, you'll get out whatever you put in.
• 15:48
  Steph Bradshaw: And I know that's a bit of a cliche, but for me, when I'm teaching, especially in a large group setting where I have a lot of people that I'm trying to teach in a very short amount of time, even with the weekend clinics, it always goes by so fast and there are so many things we don't get to, and so in that situation, I'm typically focusing on the horse that's in front of me, on the person that's working with the horse, and then whenever other people engage, like the auditors, you know, ask questions or engage, I engage right back.
• 16:22
  Steph Bradshaw: But it is really challenging from the clinician perspective to, you know, take attendance and make sure everybody, you know, engages and interacts.
• 16:33
  Steph Bradshaw: You know there's just never going to be enough time to like share everything.
• 16:39
  Steph Bradshaw: I want, you know, all the knowledge I want to share with the people who are actively engaging and participating, and so I don't typically have time to sort of pause and think you know, okay, this person hasn't said anything, let's see what they want to learn about.
• 16:52
  Steph Bradshaw: Because think you know, okay, this person hasn't said anything, let's see what they want to learn about.
• 16:55
  Steph Bradshaw: Because, again, you know, I'm spending that whole weekend just dumping as much knowledge as I can at everybody who is, you know, asking questions and interacting.
• 17:03
  Steph Bradshaw: So I could definitely see how that that would leave people who aren't as you know, they aren't participating, so they don't have a horse there and they also aren't comfortable asking questions or really engaging.
• 17:18
  Steph Bradshaw: You might not get, you know the answers to your questions or you know the information that applies to your specific situation, if you don't take that first step of you know, giving some information about your situation, asking a question and engaging with the clinician.
• 17:35
  Steph Bradshaw: So that's really the best advice I have for people who are in that situation, for the learners and then for the clinicians.
• 17:44
  Steph Bradshaw: I think that's a really tough situation.
• 17:48
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, we could.
• 17:51
  Steph Bradshaw: That's definitely something I'll think on.
• 17:53
  Steph Bradshaw: As far as trying to engage with everybody who's there, because everybody there did invest in being there.
• 18:00
  Steph Bradshaw: You know they paid, whether it was a participation fee or an auditor fee.
• 18:04
  Steph Bradshaw: So I would love to engage with every single person there, um, but at least in my experience, like I know, I never have enough time to answer every question with as much detail and share all of the you know, techniques and tips and tricks and all the different things that I want to share with people who are asking questions and engaging Um.
• 18:24
  Steph Bradshaw: So it's hard to yeah, it would be very hard to try, and, you know, step back and take from that time that already feels so limited, um, to try and engage if somebody isn't, you know, step back and take from that time that already feels so limited to try and engage if somebody isn't, you know, actively putting themselves out there and asking direct questions.
• 18:38
  Isabeau Solace: How many people?
• 18:39
  Isabeau Solace: When you have a, are you working with everybody?
• 18:42
  Isabeau Solace: Do you do clinics?
• 18:42
  Isabeau Solace: You work with one person at a time?
• 18:44
  Isabeau Solace: Are you working with the whole group at one time?
• 18:46
  Isabeau Solace: How many people?
• 18:48
  Steph Bradshaw: So that is something that I am pretty flexible on and that actually brings up a really good point that I have been sort of slowly trying to address and how I do clinics.
• 18:59
  Steph Bradshaw: I don't think I've found a magic recipe that works well for everyone yet, but I've tried to be really flexible and offer a lot of different options.
• 19:09
  Steph Bradshaw: The traditional clinic format where you know we have a bunch of people and their horses come together at one location and we do big group sessions or even, you know, back-to-back individual sessions, it's not the most horse friendly.
• 19:28
  Steph Bradshaw: If the horses already live at the same facility, that is a huge advantage.
• 19:33
  Steph Bradshaw: But when we're hauling horses to a different facility, you know that whole routine in and of itself.
• 19:40
  Steph Bradshaw: You know loading the horse up on the trailer, having them travel, having them settle into a new environment, having them engage and participate in training or participate in riding.
• 19:51
  Steph Bradshaw: There are so many aspects of their physical fitness that has to be capable of.
• 19:56
  Steph Bradshaw: You know going on a trailer, ride, loading and unloading, settling into a new environment and being physically comfortable, doing whatever the behavior expectations are.
• 20:07
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, if it's groundwork and things like that, it's a little easier.
• 20:10
  Steph Bradshaw: But when we're doing riding activities that where you know they have to be fairly sound and athletic to hold up to all the travel on top of the riding.
• 20:20
  Steph Bradshaw: Um, and that's something that's often overlooked in the traditional world and kind of.
• 20:25
  Steph Bradshaw: You know we use those band-aid solutions of.
• 20:28
  Steph Bradshaw: You know the horse might come off the trailer a little stiff and not want to move forward, so we grab a crop for the clinic.
• 20:33
  Steph Bradshaw: You know the horse might come off the trailer a little stiff and not want to move forward, so we grab a crop for the clinic.
• 20:36
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, and with positive reinforcement we don't do that.
• 20:38
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, if the horse comes off the trailer sore and isn't comfortable riding.
• 20:42
  Steph Bradshaw: I'm not comfortable teaching them under saddle and luckily I haven't run into any issues with anybody being upset about that.
• 20:51
  Steph Bradshaw: So far there have only been a couple times that somebody has wanted to ride and I haven't run into any issues with anybody being upset about that.
• 20:55
  Steph Bradshaw: So far there have only been a couple times that somebody has wanted to ride and I haven't felt comfortable teaching them under saddle because of their horse's physical state.
• 21:03
  Steph Bradshaw: And in those situations the caretaker has always been very, very grateful for the insight about their horse's comfort and all of those were situations where the human genuinely didn't know has always been very, very grateful for the insight about their horse's comfort.
• 21:14
  Steph Bradshaw: Um, and all of those were situations where the human genuinely didn't know, they didn't know how to see those signs of discomfort and they didn't realize that they were asking their horse to do things that were uncomfortable.
• 21:23
  Steph Bradshaw: Um, so that that I've been fortunate enough that I haven't run into issues with them being upset about not being able to ride.
• 21:32
  Steph Bradshaw: But then also there's all of the emotional aspects of, you know, leaving your herd behind, coming to a new situation, the horse having to settle in and, depending on their security as far as socialization needs and herd needs, that can be really stressful on them.
• 21:50
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, there's security with food resources and water resources, like we're changing, how they have access to everything they need, and unless they're really solid and used to that routine of traveling, it's a pretty stressful situation to be in.
• 22:07
  Steph Bradshaw: And then that can be frustrating from the participant perspective.
• 22:12
  Steph Bradshaw: If you're, you know, a participant who typically does like easygoing groundwork or agility, and it's nothing that requires a lot from the horse physically.
• 22:23
  Steph Bradshaw: But if you have a horse that is maybe a rescue or has had some hardship in their lifetime, which unfortunately is most horses nowadays.
• 22:31
  Steph Bradshaw: That's something that you know.
• 22:35
  Steph Bradshaw: If you load them up and take them to a clinic, we might spend the whole clinic time working on, you know, making sure they're comfortable and helping them adjust and like supporting their you know mental and emotional health while they're adjusting to travel and that's not very beneficial from a training perspective.
• 22:52
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, if you're usually training on facility you're not looking to get into a routine of traveling.
• 22:57
  Steph Bradshaw: You know I don't want to say it's a waste because you're still getting good techniques and information out of it, but it's definitely not the most helpful and like most constructive instruction you could get.
• 23:11
  Steph Bradshaw: So you know that approach of you know bringing everybody together, having all the horses travel.
• 23:16
  Steph Bradshaw: It works well if the horses are used to traveling.
• 23:19
  Steph Bradshaw: I've noticed, like my trail clients that go on off property trail rides a lot, their horses are used to traveling, they settle in super well.
• 23:28
  Steph Bradshaw: So we can do the traditional format where everybody travels to one location and all the horses do really well with it.
• 23:37
  Steph Bradshaw: But if that's not your routine, if you're not traveling often to shows or trail rides or whatever it is, then that traditional format probably isn't going to be as beneficial for your learning and your horse's learning.
• 23:49
  Steph Bradshaw: And same goes for group formats.
• 23:52
  Steph Bradshaw: I typically do individual, unless the horses are.
• 23:57
  Steph Bradshaw: Typically the horses and humans typically interact in a group.
• 24:00
  Steph Bradshaw: So you know friends that go out to the barn together and go on rides together.
• 24:05
  Steph Bradshaw: I'll do a group session with them, since their horses are usually all in the arena together, working together in a group.
• 24:13
  Steph Bradshaw: But if that's not the typical format, again, that's a new skill and if your goal isn't to be working in a group setting, then I don't want to take your clinic time to focus on.
• 24:25
  Steph Bradshaw: You know how to work in a group setting with your horse.
• 24:28
  Steph Bradshaw: I would rather focus on whatever your goals are.
• 24:33
  Steph Bradshaw: And so if that's individual, that means we do individual sessions.
• 24:36
  Steph Bradshaw: So, yeah, all of that said.
• 24:40
  Steph Bradshaw: To kind of answer your original question, originally I was booking eight per day, so eight sessions in a day.
• 24:47
  Steph Bradshaw: And so that you know, however that goes, if I had groups I would probably um, like I'd leave a little more time for the group than I would if it were an individual Um, but I will say that was pretty, um, pretty intense, like we were going from the beginning of the day running late into the evening, um, and it was a lot of information for everybody to take in and a lot, of, a lot of teaching on my end.
• 25:17
  Steph Bradshaw: So I've tried to scale it back to doing like six per day if possible, but of course that makes it more cost intensive for everybody.
• 25:27
  Steph Bradshaw: And I like to try and keep everything cost effective where I can.
• 25:32
  Steph Bradshaw: So, all of that said, one of the models that I've been trying to employ a little bit more when I'm booking people, I ask them questions about you know, how often do you travel with your horse?
• 25:45
  Steph Bradshaw: And if they never travel anywhere, I try to book at their facility if I can.
• 25:50
  Steph Bradshaw: So I might only be booking four or five people in a day, but I'm traveling to each of their facilities and doing lessons where they are, rather than everybody coming to one location, and as long as everybody's close enough together that the travel isn't too intensive in between facilities, that's worked really, really well and I found that everybody gets a lot more out of it, the only drawback being that we don't get that community feeling where everybody, all the humans, get to come together in one place.
• 26:26
  Steph Bradshaw: So the model that I'm trying to employ, or that I'm hoping to employ and see how it goes, is getting everybody in the general area together for a human gathering, where all of the people come together and we talk about some of the basics, do some discussion, get everybody connected, and then I do individual or a few different locations where I visit to do lessons with everybody, instead of all the horses coming to one location as well.
• 26:58
  Steph Bradshaw: Does that sort of make sense?
• 27:01
  Isabeau Solace: No, that makes total sense, and thanks for sharing how you've developed that over time.
• 27:04
  Isabeau Solace: That was very interesting to hear how you've altered that and developed that as time has gone on.
• 27:09
  Isabeau Solace: I believe Emma has a question for you.
• 27:13
  Emma Jenkinson: Emma.
• 27:13
  Emma Jenkinson: Oh yes, and I am definitely taking notes as I think about teaching clinics.
• 27:17
  Isabeau Solace: Good for you.
• 27:19
  Emma Jenkinson: Yes, but I was wondering what behaviors would you maybe need to have done from a positive reinforcement perspective to be prepared for a clinic?
• 27:30
  Emma Jenkinson: Isabeau Solace.
• 27:30
  Emma Jenkinson: - Oh, good question.
• 27:31
  Emma Jenkinson: Steph Bradshaw - That's a very good question.
• 27:33
  Emma Jenkinson: So I think the best thing you can do is ask lots of questions about you know, try to get a good idea of what the experience is going to be like because it really does differ clinician to clinician, technician, or talking to the facility manager and getting an idea of you know are.
• 27:58
  Emma Jenkinson: Is my horse going to be staying in a paddock?
• 28:00
  Emma Jenkinson: Are they going to be in a stall?
• 28:01
  Emma Jenkinson: Um, are there going to be, you know, other horses around?
• 28:03
  Emma Jenkinson: Um, is the arena and indoor?
• 28:06
  Emma Jenkinson: Is it a covered arena?
• 28:08
  Emma Jenkinson: Is it outdoor?
• 28:08
  Emma Jenkinson: Um, you know, I'll usually, before I book out a facility, I try to find pictures of you know what does the training space look like, or at least get some clarity on you know what kind of fences there are, there other horses around, and that will give you a good idea of some of the skills that your horse will need once you arrive.
• 28:32
  Emma Jenkinson: Trailering is a huge one, um, trailering is a huge one, um.
• 28:41
  Emma Jenkinson: If you are going to a facility, um, and you're traveling there, working with your horse on loading on the trailer, going on trips in the trailer, that's something that takes um a lot out of their body physically.
• 28:50
  Emma Jenkinson: We don't really think about the physicality of riding in a trailer, um, but horses aren't used to having the ground move underneath their feet.
• 28:58
  Emma Jenkinson: They are typically on pretty solid ground, and so that's something that really uses a lot of those little stabilizing muscles and tendons.
• 29:07
  Emma Jenkinson: So that's something that gradual approximations are really important.
• 29:13
  Emma Jenkinson: You know, not loading them up and going for several hours all at once, but you know, load up and take a lap around the property or go down the road and back, and then do you know a 20 or 30 minute drive and gradually get to that longer duration, um, and then you'll also get feedback from your horse.
• 29:32
  Emma Jenkinson: You know, if you, maybe you load them up and they do fine, but then you take them on a short ride, they do okay, and then you'll also get feedback from your horse.
• 29:37
  Emma Jenkinson: You know, if you, maybe you load them up and they do fine, but then you take them on a short ride, they do OK, and then you go on a you know an hour long trip and the next time they don't want to load in the trailer.
• 29:43
  Emma Jenkinson: That's a pretty good indicator that that trip that they took was not comfortable for them substantially enough that they no longer want to go on the cookie box where they get all the cookies for loading up.
• 29:54
  Emma Jenkinson: You know, absolutely, they no longer want to go on the cookie box where they get all the cookies for loading up.
• 29:59
  Emma Jenkinson: You know Absolutely.
• 30:03
  Emma Jenkinson: Yeah, so getting that feedback as far as how comfortable they are with longer durations in the trailer, working with them to make sure they're comfortable with that and then making it a good routine too, usually, the first few times they travel somewhere, we get to that other location, we unload and I just want them to eat a bucket of feed and then we get back in the trailer and we head home and that's all we do.
• 30:24
  Emma Jenkinson: Is we just?
• 30:24
  Emma Jenkinson: You know, look, we went to this cool place that had a bucket of food and you got to eat it.
• 30:26
  Emma Jenkinson: It was so much fun.
• 30:26
  Emma Jenkinson: Let's go home.
• 30:27
  Emma Jenkinson: But there aren't any behavior expectations, there are no opportunities to get frustrated or confused or anxious, because it's just a very good, pleasant experience.
• 30:37
  Emma Jenkinson: And once we do that a few times, we start to introduce a little more.
• 30:41
  Emma Jenkinson: You know, let's go explore, let's go for a little walk, let's do some training, but only once they're more comfortable with that routine of load up, travel, unload and everything is good in the world.
• 30:53
  Emma Jenkinson: We don't need to be anxious.
• 30:54
  Emma Jenkinson: We don't need to be scared, we don't need to be confused, um, so traveling is a huge one, um, and then from there, depending on the facility, um, you know, being able to work with your horse with the halter and lead attached, um, not every facility has super secure fencing.
• 31:12
  Emma Jenkinson: So if your horse is used to working completely at Liberty especially certain, you know, like rescue horses that are a little more nervous with the halter and rope, that can end up really changing how they interact if they always work at Liberty.
• 31:26
  Emma Jenkinson: But then, because of the facility limitations, we have to keep a halter and rope on Working with them with other people around.
• 31:35
  Emma Jenkinson: That can be a big difference too.
• 31:38
  Emma Jenkinson: You know, having a group of spectators can be really intimidating for some horses, all of those little eyes watching them as they're doing things.
• 31:46
  Emma Jenkinson: If the clinician uses a microphone and a speaker, that can be absolutely terrifying to some horses.
• 31:53
  Emma Jenkinson: So getting them used to, you know, absolutely terrifying to some horses.
• 31:57
  Emma Jenkinson: So getting them used to, you know, put a music player up in the arena.
• 31:58
  Emma Jenkinson: Or, you know, get a little one of those little karaoke things or a little speaker set so that you can use a speaker and get them used to it.
• 32:05
  Emma Jenkinson: Those are all things that can be super helpful.
• 32:07
  Emma Jenkinson: And then, lastly, stationing it's one of the most versatile behaviors, but knowing that you can just plop your horse in a spot and say, wait here while I go do something, you know, anytime you're at any sort of event, there's probably going to be times where your horse just needs to wait patiently and you don't have the opportunity to, you know, turn them out into a beautifully enriched environment so that they can go wait in peace in their little paddock paradise.
• 32:35
  Emma Jenkinson: So, however you do that whether it's teaching them to target something you know, a mat or a cone, or teaching them to stand on a bucket or at a hay net, anything like that but being able to have them just patiently wait their turn is another really good one.
• 32:50
  Emma Jenkinson: Excellent advice.
• 32:51
  Emma Jenkinson: I hadn't thought of some of those.
• 32:53
  Emma Jenkinson: So yeah, it sounds like doing research and just making sure we're prepared especially to trailer, tie or stand at a stationary target.
• 33:07
  Emma Jenkinson: Awesome, thank you so much, I will.
• 33:13
  Isabeau Solace: All right, awesome, thank you.
• 33:14
  Isabeau Solace: That was thank you, steph.
• 33:15
  Isabeau Solace: That was excellent information.
• 33:17
  Isabeau Solace: So I'll bring us back to the thing that was my original question about our best friend and our worst enemy, the big bad internet.
• 33:25
  Isabeau Solace: That's such a good way to put it.
• 33:29
  Isabeau Solace: Yes, our best friend and our biggest enemy.
• 33:31
  Isabeau Solace: You know I see people having problems all the way from.
• 33:35
  Isabeau Solace: I'm a pony provider and my summer camp kids paint the pony with totally safe water-based paints and I got a bunch of hate because people think that that is abuse All the way up to you know completely, absolutely unquestional abuse of somebody being aggressive with a whip or spurs or kicking a horse, and most events are somewhere in between.
• 33:56
  Isabeau Solace: But at this point in time, how much do you take that feedback from the general public about the horse industry?
• 34:06
  Isabeau Solace: Do you let it influence you?
• 34:08
  Isabeau Solace: Do you keep track of it?
• 34:10
  Isabeau Solace: Are you just completely ignoring it?
• 34:12
  Isabeau Solace: I know there's people who are high enough on the food chain.
• 34:14
  Isabeau Solace: They just don't have time to scroll through Facebook more and more.
• 34:17
  Isabeau Solace: It doesn't matter who you are.
• 34:19
  Isabeau Solace: Somebody can be out there videoing you and deciding that what you're doing is wrong.
• 34:24
  Isabeau Solace: Even you know horses shouldn't travel on trailers.
• 34:28
  Isabeau Solace: It's bad, you know.
• 34:29
  Isabeau Solace: Um so where?
• 34:31
  Isabeau Solace: What's your current relationship with social media and all the nonsense and all the good or bad that goes on there?
• 34:38
  Isabeau Solace: That's fair.
• 34:39
  Steph Bradshaw: I am, you know, both glad and, you know, troubled by the fact that I have a pretty hypercritical lens on most things in the world.
• 34:51
  Steph Bradshaw: I like to really examine things and consider different perspectives and I try to be very intentional in everything that I do, and I find that the internet can be a very, very good source of differing opinions.
• 35:10
  Isabeau Solace: That's such a positive way of putting it.
• 35:12
  Isabeau Solace: Very good yeah.
• 35:15
  Steph Bradshaw: It really is, though, and I think it's important to acknowledge.
• 35:19
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, especially with social media.
• 35:21
  Steph Bradshaw: You know how social media works, that the algorithm wants engagement.
• 35:26
  Steph Bradshaw: It wants people to.
• 35:28
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, glance at something and then get sucked in, and one of the easiest ways to make that happen is to be controversial, because, whether the person agrees with it or disagrees, it's going to grab their attention and make them want to, you know, figure out what's going on in that situation, and I've also noticed with social media a lot of times.
• 35:51
  Steph Bradshaw: You know the original the, the original content creator that put an opinion out there, will have one opinion, and originally there was a bit more of this echo chamber type situation, and I've noticed that recently it's shifted to where there's usually a pretty decent contrast between the original opinion and what's going on in the comment section, and that's really beneficial for the algorithm, because when somebody sees a post, if they agree with it, they go oh wow, I really agree with that.
• 36:23
  Steph Bradshaw: That resonates with me, that's awesome, and they engage, and if they disagree with it, they go to the comment section, and so it's sort of a way that everybody can get their confirmation bias confirmed.
• 36:38
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, everybody can find their people.
• 36:42
  Steph Bradshaw: If there's those two, you know polar opinions linked to every piece of content.
• 36:48
  Steph Bradshaw: So, you know, taking that into consideration is important.
• 36:52
  Steph Bradshaw: Knowing that.
• 36:53
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, social media can become an echo chamber.
• 36:57
  Steph Bradshaw: It can also become that sort of polarized.
• 37:00
  Steph Bradshaw: You're going to put one opinion, you're going to say the sky's blue and you're going to get a bunch of people arguing that it's red and so that's that's just kind of the nature of it.
• 37:10
  Steph Bradshaw: So acknowledging that, being aware of that, I think makes it a lot easier to put your opinions out there and to interact on social media.
• 37:19
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, trying not to take it personally, even though that's very challenging, especially with, you know, deeply emotional investments, like our relationships with horses and our work with horses.
• 37:30
  Steph Bradshaw: Horses, you know, equestrians are very, very passionate and we feel very deeply and we have a lot of deep emotions when it comes to our horses and I think that that's super important.
• 37:43
  Steph Bradshaw: It works against us a lot when we get into arguments and discussions about, you know, welfare and ethics, but in the end, I think that empathy and that emotional investment is for the benefit of the horse and, uh, tends to work in the horse's favor, even if it takes a little while to get there critical lens, which I really appreciate because I try to be very intentional and I have a very, very much like do no harm approach to everything in life, and social media gives you those different perspectives.
• 38:27
  Steph Bradshaw: So for me, I like to consider all of the perspectives.
• 38:30
  Steph Bradshaw: It's not always the best thing to do, especially some of my posts end up with, you know, hundreds or thousands of comments.
• 38:39
  Isabeau Solace: And so that's.
• 38:40
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, it's not going to be healthy for me to go through and like deeply consider all you know, thousand opinions that are being thrown out there, so I do have to balance, um, you know, I don't always, unfortunately, I don't always have time to engage with every single one of them, but I do try to, you know, take as much time as I can to read through those different opinions, understand where they're coming from, Because there's usually a little piece of something helpful.
• 39:09
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, understanding why people feel the way they do.
• 39:13
  Steph Bradshaw: Um, there have been plenty of times that I have been proven wrong and I've had some really good things pointed out to me that I'm very grateful for, and if I had just been defensive and closed off, I wouldn't have had those opportunities to grow, Um.
• 39:29
  Steph Bradshaw: And then there have also been lots of times that I read something and I just think to myself I am so sorry for everything that this person must have gone through to have that opinion and approach to uh, you know, whatever it is.
• 39:42
  Steph Bradshaw: So, um, you know.
• 39:44
  Steph Bradshaw: Regardless, though, there's um, I think there's stuff to learn, and so it's worth engaging as much as you can, Um, and as much as is healthy for you and your situation.
• 39:55
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, not getting sucked down that rabbit hole.
• 40:02
  Steph Bradshaw: You know, don't neglect everything else in your life and be sure you disconnect from the screen pretty frequently.
• 40:06
  Steph Bradshaw: But I think if we can engage with an open mind and an open heart, then that can.
• 40:10
  Steph Bradshaw: That can help some really great learning happen and help people get connected and understand each other a little better.
• 40:21
  Isabeau Solace: Gotcha, that is excellent advice.
• 40:23
  Isabeau Solace: Thank you All right, I appreciate you coming to talk with us.
• 40:26
  Isabeau Solace: You're so well-spoken, steph.
• 40:28
  Isabeau Solace: I'm so jealous of your speaking ability.
• 40:31
  Isabeau Solace: You're a great presenter, I appreciate that Educator the internet thing.
• 40:35
  Isabeau Solace: I just often, often find myself my writing instructor is very good at putting you in a position to where right on the edge, so that you can see the answer.
• 40:44
  Isabeau Solace: That's really where she tries to position you, and I have this fantasy that there's some way you can engage with people online and, you know, get the same thing to happen, cause even the people who are proponents for welfare and stuff a lot of them are on a power trip, by which I mean they're trying to get other people to change the way they do things, and just going at anybody with that kind of out mindset is gonna they're going to put up a wall.
• 41:10
  Isabeau Solace: You know if you have the best intentions in the world, people know if your goal is to make them change.
• 41:15
  Isabeau Solace: You know if you have the best intentions in the world, people know if your goal is to make them change.
• 41:17
  Isabeau Solace: You know if you've judged them you're not doing is not good enough and you need to change, a lot of people are just going to stop you right there.
• 41:24
  Isabeau Solace: Yeah, I keep thinking there's some way to phrase things so that you're more inviting people to see what's in front of them as opposed to trying insist that they see what you want them to do.
• 41:39
  Isabeau Solace: Yes, yeah, I just be.
• 41:41
  Isabeau Solace: I'm hopping around for that I.
• 41:43
  Isabeau Solace: I don't know if it exists, it might just be a fantasy I think there's.
• 41:48
  Steph Bradshaw: I think there's definitely a reality in there.
• 41:50
  Steph Bradshaw: I don't think that's a fantasy at all.
• 41:52
  Steph Bradshaw: Um, I think you know, opening people to like critical thinking skills, asking them to examine things critically, you know, inviting them to, you know, take a lap around the situation and look at it from all the different perspectives, is definitely a more constructive approach versus asking them to, you know, stand exactly where you are and see things from your perspective, because you're right that that that typically just leads to conflict and defensiveness, and sometimes that's unavoidable.
• 42:26
  Steph Bradshaw: There's, there are going to be people out there that, for whatever reason, just cannot accept certain perspectives or certain ideas.
• 42:35
  Steph Bradshaw: And acknowledging, too, that there's.
• 42:38
  Steph Bradshaw: You know there are so many different things in this world and so many things that people go through, and you know all behavior is communication and all behavior has a reason, and so even those people that are very defensive or, you know, engage in conflict rather than discussion, there's usually a reason for that too, and so when we step back and acknowledge that, rather than being hurt by it, that can also help a ton, you know, respecting their, their situation and their perspective and just inviting them to hopefully, you know, consider some other perspectives whenever they're comfortable and in a safe place where they feel like they can do that.
• 43:22
  Isabeau Solace: That's fabulous.
• 43:23
  Isabeau Solace: That is what I will put at the top of the episode notes Alrighty, awesome, all right.
• 43:28
  Isabeau Solace: Thank you very much, steph.
• 43:30
  Isabeau Solace: I appreciate you for talking with me again.
• 43:36
  Emma Jenkinson: Yes, thank you.
• 43:36
  Emma Jenkinson: It was great talking with you guys.
• 43:38
  Steph Bradshaw: All right, take care, ladies.
• 43:39
  Steph Bradshaw: Have a good day you too.
• 43:41
  Isabeau Solace: Bye-bye, bye.