Latest / The SEANC View / Running on Empty: Inside North Carolina's Prison Staffing Crisis

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Running on Empty: Inside North Carolina's Prison Staffing Crisis · The SEANC View

0:00
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Scenic View podcast.
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We've got a special episode today. I think I say that every week.
0:06
We do have special episodes every week, but this is even more special.
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We've had a string of special episodes.
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That was Artis Watkins, by the way, Executive Director of Scenic.
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I'm Jonathan Owens, the Communications Director.
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We have Sammy Klein in here producing the podcast.
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We are at the Department of Adult Correction headquarters this week to speak
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with the Secretary of DAC, Leslie Cooley Dismukes.
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She's gracious enough to give us some time, so let's jump right into grilling her with questions.
0:46
Artis, do you want to start? Well, first of all, I want to say I really like
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the Sanford you put on her last name, Dismukes, instead of Dismukes, which, of course, it is.
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But I do appreciate the Sanford all the time on the podcast.
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But I'd be happy to start. So, Secretary Dismukes, welcome.
1:03
For listeners who may not know you well yet, can you share a bit about your
1:07
background and what led you ultimately to this role?
1:10
Sure. So, I'm a lawyer by trade, or I guess by training.
1:13
Not by trade anymore, by training. And I started my career at the Mecklenburg
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County District Attorney's Office as a prosecutor.
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Spent several years there before going to the U.S. Attorney's Office here in
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Raleigh. I was a federal prosecutor and the criminal chief there.
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And then went to work at NCDOJ for Attorney General Stein, then Attorney General
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Stein, as the criminal bureau chief over at DOJ.
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And broadened my area of practice there. The special prosecutors reported to
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me, but I also did other things like appellate work,
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Medicaid investigations, and notably, as it relates to this job,
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the public safety section over there reported to me, which does all of the legal
1:48
work for our department here and for DPS.
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So this is old hat in a way, but a totally new adventure in another.
1:55
That's right. I give it a new spin on some previously understood issues. Awesome.
2:00
So maybe beyond your job, just tell us a little bit about where you come from
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and your background in general.
2:06
Sure. So we are sitting in my conference room and I will direct you to my,
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which the listeners can't see,
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but my bookshelves here are covered with my University of North Carolina.
2:14
Oh, so beautiful. It is a beautiful room. It wasn't beautiful last night that
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we lost last night. Well, you know, it's because I wasn't able to watch.
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So when I tune in, I watched the Duke game. So that was important. Yeah.
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But I actually grew up on the eastern shore of Maryland. where my father was
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a small business owner there, and he had moved back after going to Carolina
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to take over the company from my grandfather.
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And so my mom, he met my mom here in North Carolina. They moved back.
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I grew up in Maryland, but always knew I would go to Carolina. Yeah.
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Came down to Carolina and never left. And so most of my family is still here
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in North Carolina. We actually own a farm outside of Wilson.
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My grandmother still lives on. Yeah. And so even though I grew up in Maryland,
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I still consider myself a Carolina girl. My wife is from Wilson.
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Oh, there you go, Wilson. You got it. You got it. That's right.
3:02
So when you accepted this position, what were some of the challenges maybe you
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thought you were going to see?
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And then what have you encountered since being on the job?
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So, you know, supervising the legal work for a department.
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You get a pretty good view into what some of the challenges the agency faces.
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And so I don't think that anything I have encountered in the past year has really been a surprise.
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I knew that staffing would be a huge issue for us, and it has continued to be
3:28
the number one challenge that we face as an agency.
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And we've been talking about that a lot, I mean, for the last 10 years.
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I mean, yeah, it's been a terrible issue for that long across state government.
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But honestly, obviously, your employees face some of the greatest danger in
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all the state government.
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And to that point, at a recent joint legislative oversight committee meeting,
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you told lawmakers, quote, our staffing situation is dire and is dangerous,
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dangerous to my staff, dangerous to the people in my custody and dangerous to
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the people of North Carolina.
3:59
So where is the overall vacancy rate in our prisons today? And is it improving? Yeah.
4:04
So slightly, which is the good news, right? So we as an agency were in January of 25 when I came in.
4:12
We were at just a little bit over 24% vacancy rate, and now we're just a little
4:16
bit over 23%. So we've made less than a percent increase in staffing in the past year.
4:23
So we're trending in the right direction. But for context, what I think is more
4:26
powerful is to think about how our recruiting went last year.
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We recruited and hired more than 2,600 people into the department last year,
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which I think is amazing.
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But we lost more than 2,400. They don't stay, do they? They do not.
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And so the Delta there is, I think it was 164, right? So we made a difference by 164 folks last year.
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So we are trying and we are moving in the right direction, but we've got a lot more work to do.
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Obviously, we've talked a lot about why they're not staying,
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but let's hear it from you, from the head honcho here. What are the reasons people aren't staying?
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I think there are a couple of them. And the first has to do with money, right?
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I mean, money is not everything at any agency, but it certainly helps make some
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of the other things that people have to endure easier when they are adequately
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compensated for the hard work that they're doing.
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And we are just not doing that. We are not able to.
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We do not have the money in our budget to pay people what they deserve to be
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paid and have not received raises in quite some time. And so we are unable statutorily
5:20
to give our correctional officers in particular the raises that they need.
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And so money obviously is going to help us improve recruitment because,
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let's be honest, when we're looking for new jobs, we want to know what we pay.
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And I think that our pool of applicants these days want to know the hourly rate,
5:37
which is not great when you tell them it's roughly $18 an hour.
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And then the staff that have been here for some time want to be compensated
5:43
for that, but also want to see a forward trajectory in being able to continue
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to be compensated and continue to be paid for their years of service.
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So we need money desperately.
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Yeah, it always amazed me over the years whenever legislators have asked me,
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hey, other than money, what would make your folks happy? And I'm like, I don't know.
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Other than money, what would make the power company happy or the food lion? Really?
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Nothing other than the money. They want. So, you know, you got to have it.
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I do. But I do think there are other things that we can do. Sure.
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You know, money might make them come, but culture might make them stay. I like that.
6:15
I think that we can continue to look at what we can do as an agency culturally
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to make people want to stay even through the hard times.
6:23
So lapsed salary is a hot topic right now.
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And Auditor Bullock put out a report saying that state agencies had just an
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enormous amount of positions where lapsed salary meant money that was supposed
6:35
to go to salaries was just sitting in agencies.
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He didn't use the term sitting in agencies. That is my paraphrasing.
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But it made agencies look like they're not trying to hire people.
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I mean, there's legislators who are saying things out loud, indicating that's
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what they're getting as the gist of this report. What are you doing with lapse salary?
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So for us, lapse salary, and we have had this conversation with the auditor's
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office and have been transparent with the legislature, we use every single bit
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of lapse salary from the positions that we cannot fill, even though we want
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to, to put back into our operational budget.
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We were $82 million over budget just in medical last year.
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We started the fiscal year that much in the hole with our operational budget.
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Our base budget has not kept up with the needs of our agency year over year.
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And so every single bit of lap salary goes back into the operational budget and we use it all.
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Now, the challenge is going to be when we get staffed up, as I mentioned earlier.
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We need 9,000 and some change just to run safe prisons, and we are at 4,000
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and some change. So we need those other 5,000 bodies.
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When we get even half that many, we are going to then not have that additional
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lapse to put back into our operational budget to keep the lights on, to pay for food.
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Okay, wait a minute. So just today in the Government Efficiency Committee on the House side...
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And legislators were saying, look, if they don't have enough money to meet their
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bills, they need to let us know.
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Have y'all not let the General Assembly know you need more just to operate?
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Yes, we have had these discussions. And I think that looking at my testimony
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in JPS Oversight a couple of weeks ago also will show that.
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I talked about how much money we were in the hole at the beginning of this fiscal
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year and the fact that we are using every single bit of our laps to cover our
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operational budget. We have let them know what we need and in what areas we need it.
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Yeah. So when we talk about truth in budgeting and all the things that Auditor
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Bullock says, you know, was their goal as the agency, the auditor's office in
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this, you kind of want that, too, it sounds like. We do.
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You want truth in budgeting. We do. We absolutely.
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And we said this in our response letter to the auditor. We said that we absolutely
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agree that we want to true up our budget.
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We need an operational budget that is able to account for all of our agency's
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needs because they've changed, just like everything does with the cost of living
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and the cost of goods and services as they rise.
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The cost of running our agency has changed and we need to true that up because
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we need to staff up and then we won't have the lapse to put to paying all of
9:03
our various vendors that need us to pay them.
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So, did your, you know, today we were also hearing in the testimony of the legislature
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that some of these agencies just were very blatant that we don't even,
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we're never going to hire in that particular position. We're just going to leave it open.
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Did you do that with any positions or did you abolish any positions?
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So, we're in a bit of a different position than many agencies in that we have
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continuous postings for many of our most critical because we can always use
9:29
more COs, PPOs, that kind of thing, nurses.
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But we do have a large number of positions that have been vacant for a long
9:35
time because of our inability to staff them, because of our inability to pay them.
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And so we have recently abolished a number of positions, roughly 1,500, here in our agency.
9:45
But when I say abolish, I want to be really clear that what we did is abolish
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those positions to take the money from those positions and the laps that they
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were generating and put them into our operational base budget.
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So we can fund things like the overtime that our staff is working,
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the cost of medical, the cost of food, the cost of our facility improvements,
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all of which comes out of our operating budget.
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So it basically makes it a stable source of money in our base budget when our
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base budget has not changed by abolishing those positions.
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To be clear, we left plenty, thousands of positions vacant because we need to
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fill those and we want to fill those and hope that when we get these raises, we can fill those.
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So we still have the positions that are vacant that need to be filled when we
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can get the money to fill them.
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I think there's just tremendous confusion by a lot of members of the legislature
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over this because I get it. I've talked to enough agency heads at this point. It's pretty clear.
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Y'all are having to get rid of things you need.
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Because you're not being given what you need. And then people are pointing at
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you and saying, see, you didn't need that. And we have been very transparent.
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You know, we have been asked by the legislature to provide fund codes for where
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our money is going from lap salary. And we have done that because we have to.
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We will run out of money before the end of this fiscal year.
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We will not be able to pay our bills that we have to pay. I mean,
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we talk about government efficiency.
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This sounds like the least efficient manner to handle things,
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not by y'all's end as the agency, but as a state. We just need to fund things,
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not have this perpetual cycle of people leaving and then we have to retrain
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them and then the counties hire them away.
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It's just, that's the least efficient thing I can think of, as opposed to just
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asking you what you need and seeing if we can meet that.
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I agree. We have tried to be as transparent as possible and provide as much information and data.
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We're a very data-driven agency, and we will provide whatever data the legislature
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needs so that we can move the needle. I love that.
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So I've told my staff that 2026 is the year of retention.
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You know, if you think about losing 2,400 folks last year, what if we had only
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lost half of that? Where would we be in the staffing of our prisons?
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One of the things that comes up is the high cost of turnover.
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And so if you're not keeping folks, that's really expensive.
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In addition to being inefficient and even a safety issue, not to have enough
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people who've been there a while and know what's going on. It's expensive. It is.
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You know, we have looked at other states and where they have been successful.
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And I think Florida in particular is a good example of this.
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But when you can get someone to hang on past the second year,
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when you can just get that delta to be slightly longer.
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The return on investment is actually so much larger in terms of both the retention
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of other staff, even if you lose people after two years, but also in the investments
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you're making into people.
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And so we're looking at how we can get people to stay just a little bit longer,
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and then hopefully that will translate into much longer. I didn't know that. That's interesting.
12:36
So in 2024, our prison population grew, while the number of correctional officers actually declined.
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What's that mean for daily operation and the safety inside the facilities? Sure.
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I think it's simple numbers, right? You think of more people who need to be
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supervised and fewer people to do the supervision.
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And that just means the sheer ratio of people is not even man to man or I mean,
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you're completely in zone defense at that point.
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And it is very difficult to manage when something gets out of hand.
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And that doesn't happen every day, but that is a great concern that we have.
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And so we're trying to do more with less. You know, one of the things that I
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told the legislature about was we look at staffing or we look at vacancy rates
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in a couple of different ways.
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But I think the most telling vacancy rate, we have our overall staff vacancy
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rate, which is based on FTEs.
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But the most telling is when we look at what the post chart should be.
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So what the assignments should be for the prison and where we are based on how
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many people we have and the delta between those two.
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And so when we look at our post chart right now, agency-wide for all 55 facilities,
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we should be somewhere in the 9,000s for staffing.
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And we are staffed somewhere in the 4,000s for staffing.
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We are running at basically a 49% vacancy rate.
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We are roughly 300 people just above the baseline of what would be the critical
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number of people we have to run prisons.
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And the critical number over the years?
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Has changed. Oh, my goodness. You know, 25 years ago, saying one officer for
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50 offenders in the institution would be considered far too little.
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And that just blows my mind to think back about that.
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And now what we're hearing from a lot of people...
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Is they're oftentimes told you're going home because we're letting you at the
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end of the day. I haven't heard it from our staff, but it's not surprising.
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I mean, it is, we often talk about whether or not we should talk about our vacancy
14:28
rates publicly because whether or not that poses a danger to our staff.
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And I think that it could, but I think that also if we don't speak about it,
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look, the people who could potentially cause the danger know the vacancy rates. They do.
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They live it every single day. So they already know that the danger is already
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there, which was my point to the legislature. The danger exists. It is there.
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It is just a matter of time. And so we have to talk about it publicly because
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we have to raise awareness.
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So let's go back to, you know, getting someone in the door.
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The starting salary for correctional officers is $37,600 a year.
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And the average throughout the South is $45,000 and the national average is $52,000.
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Do you think we'll ever be at that level? And what do we do to make that happen?
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So, and as I told JPS Oversight a couple of weeks ago, we need their help.
15:21
That's what we need. We need help from the legislature to recognize the value
15:25
of the work that our folks do and what we provide to public safety in North
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Carolina. And I think we can get there. I really do.
15:31
If you look at the governor's proposed budget from this year,
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from this cycle, the Senate and the House, all of them included raises for correctional
15:40
officers, probation parole officers, and then also included the compression
15:43
raises for our senior staff on top of that.
15:46
So I think there was an acknowledgment, even though we didn't get a budget,
15:49
there was an acknowledgment of the need in the budgets that were proposed.
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And my sincere hope is that when we can get a budget, that acknowledgment will remain.
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And frankly, because of the way we have been able to raise attention to the
16:02
issue and to what the need is, I hope that it will be more in the ultimate budget
16:06
than what we saw last time.
16:07
Yeah, it's a struggle every year, but it's especially frustrating with DAC because
16:13
legislators across the board will tell you, yeah, these are some of our best
16:18
law enforcement, which,
16:20
number one, they aren't counted as law enforcement in every way,
16:23
but they seem to get it, but we don't get that number moved enough for y'all to be able to compete.
16:29
What really struck me, though, is the inability to compete even in-state. Right.
16:32
I mean, and we looked at a comparison of our agency to every other detention
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facility, so all of the sheriffs, and we really aren't competitive with them
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either in almost all cases. We have got to make significant strides so that
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we are at least competitive with the local sheriff's offices and their detention staff.
16:47
For our staff, or we are never going to get past those thresholds.
16:51
So they just let you train them.
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I would. If I ran a detention facility for a local government,
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I would let you train them and then poach them.
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And then, because I would be doing my job for my local government,
17:02
but it's got to be wildly frustrating.
17:03
So you said beyond salaries, there are some things that could make a difference.
17:07
And what do you think, beyond salaries, what kind of critical needs do you have
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in terms of equipment, body cameras, any other facility repairs or renovations.
17:17
What needs to happen so that your agency has enough money to do the job?
17:21
Sure. So I think it really, in my mind, our critical needs fall into three big buckets.
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Our safety, our medical, and then our facilities.
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And those are things that we have been working on, things that we have made
17:31
requests for additional funding for.
17:34
When it comes to safety, up until now, our probation and parole officers have not had body cams.
17:40
That has become in law enforcement the standard, the standard of care, if you will, right?
17:45
You have to have body cams for safety, period, full stop.
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But for us, it also allows us to utilize that to improve the staff experience.
17:53
You know, the transcription features on the body cams will allow us ultimately
17:57
to make case management easier for our folks so that they can spend more time
18:00
with the people that they're supervising.
18:01
It will make their jobs easier and better because they have these body cams.
18:06
So we have paid for the body cams and they are coming.
18:09
They will be online by the end of March, fully deployed to all of our probation
18:12
parole officers and all of our high-risk prison transport folks.
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And that, to me, is just a critical need that we have funded the first part
18:20
of, but are going to need help for the rest of that package as the years progress
18:24
and as we maintain the body cams moving forward.
18:27
But other safety issues, too, you know, including the cameras and drone detection,
18:32
things that help us reduce contraband and facilities.
18:34
You know, we have done a really good job in the past year of reducing overdose deaths in our prison.
18:39
Our staff is really responsive when we have an offender who has an episode,
18:42
but we also have had a lot of staff exposures in that time.
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And so reducing the contraband into our facilities improves the safety.
18:49
But we need help with funding for things like drone detection and our mail scan.
18:53
That's crazy to me, all the creative ways people get things over the fences. Yes.
18:59
It's just wild. And drones are a real thing. They are here to stay.
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So we have got to have drone detection.
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And, you know, I think that the FAA has recognized that. The federal government
19:07
has recognized that. and we as a state are moving in that direction, but we need funding.
19:11
So, you know, safety is critically important to our staff. And then medical
19:16
is an area where our population is aging.
19:19
In the past 10 years, we have had a 300% increase in the number of people in
19:23
our custody over 70 years old.
19:25
And what that requires then is being able to pay for all of those medications
19:29
that these folks are on, some of which even the single dose is very, very expensive.
19:32
So increased pharmaceutical costs, but also because we are unable to recruit
19:36
and retain our nursing staff and our provider staff, we have a large number
19:41
of outside medical trips that we are paying for.
19:44
And so our medical costs, as they are throughout the country and not just in
19:47
corrections, have skyrocketed. So we need help there.
19:50
And then with our facilities, our newest prison is 20 years old.
19:54
And so our deferred maintenance is $1.4 billion to fix what is ailing at each of our facilities.
20:01
And being able to do that improves staff experience because you don't want to
20:05
go to work somewhere where the paint is peeling or where you don't have adequate
20:08
facilities to do the things that you need to do.
20:10
You know, you want to. Do we finally have air conditioning everywhere?
20:13
Not quite. We're projected to be finished in 2027, but we are very close.
20:16
We are at 80 something percent, which is on our website.
20:20
So it's a huge improvement. So, you know, facilities are in dire need of additional
20:26
money to just repair basic things,
20:28
but also to move into the future in the spaces that we utilize for staff and
20:33
for the folks in our custody so that we can better discharge our mission.
20:37
And we need money to help complete that project, whether it's actually fixing
20:41
the problems or completing our facility condition assessment that we started
20:44
back in 2023. Does it make sense to look at maybe building a large new prison
20:49
rather than the small little?
20:52
So I think that correctional experts everywhere disagree.
20:56
Okay. What is the best footprint, right? And I think that you have just to look
21:00
at the 50 states to know that there's really no one theory.
21:03
But what I will say is increasing our ability to handle in-house medical and
21:08
expanding our ability to have either regional infirmaries or additional facilities.
21:12
Prison medical facilities across the state will be absolutely critical to moving
21:17
forward so that we can handle these things in-house.
21:19
And so we do need to very much consider whether we build new or whether we buy
21:23
a hospital and renovate. But of course, all of that takes money.
21:26
Yeah. And I mean, I know there's consternation any times we talk about building
21:31
a new facility like the Dean Dome or something like that. But I have thoughts on that too. Okay.
21:36
We want to know those later. But if you think about it, like, you're right.
21:40
Someone wouldn't want to go to work in a place without air conditioning that's run down.
21:45
And if you had a new, nice facility, it'd probably be pretty easy to attract
21:48
them. But over my career, we have shut down prisons like it's our job.
21:52
And that's a great, you know, nobody wants a state full of prisons and full of imprisoned people.
21:58
But what's been fascinating is to watch the move towards, let's have less prisons,
22:03
let's have less justice reinvestment and all that stuff, and let's have more
22:08
people dealt with outside of the prison system.
22:11
And then you get the backlash of, hey, we've got people on the street that have
22:15
done something they shouldn't have.
22:18
And somebody's always looking for somebody to blame.
22:21
Sometimes the prison system ends up getting blamed. But I've wondered about
22:26
the dramatic number of prisons we've closed.
22:28
In the last few decades. We've heard from members that that's making it tough.
22:33
So our footprint right now is about 38,000 beds, and we're nowhere close to
22:38
needing that many beds right now.
22:39
We have increased over the past years, as you mentioned, fairly significantly
22:43
and probably will increase a little bit more.
22:45
But with our current footprint, we have enough beds to house theoretically where
22:51
we might go with our criminal justice population.
22:53
If we are doing our job as an agency and as a state supporting our agency,
22:58
we are going to run the type of programming while people are in our custody
23:02
and also on supervision that will enable us to bring the prison population down
23:07
because people will not come back to see us.
23:09
To bring it down the right way. That's right. And that is the ideal,
23:13
I think, is to control the prison population by rehabilitation and reentry and
23:18
making sure that people have successful supports in the community.
23:21
None of which we can do, however, without staff to run safe prisons.
23:25
You have to fund it. You do. So you talked about nurses, and I see a graphic
23:30
here, I think from your website that says North Carolina compared to the,
23:35
I guess this is the Southeast,
23:37
our nurses make about $58,800 a year.
23:41
Whereas, I mean, the rest, West Virginia, surprised me, $84,000 for their nurses.
23:48
Tennessee, $83,000. We are severely lagging behind, even behind Kentucky,
23:53
$59,000. So how do you compete for nurses in this situation? I mean—
24:00
Obviously, there's hospitals everywhere that probably pay more than this, right?
24:04
Short answer is we don't compete. Yeah. That's the problem. That is why our
24:07
nurse vacancy rate is so huge.
24:09
And we've tried to tackle the problem by bringing on some nurses through Temporary Solutions.
24:14
But, of course, those are non-benefit positions, right? Right.
24:17
And then a great number of our nurses have been brought on through contract companies.
24:21
And with the contract companies, we are paying a third of that cost in overhead
24:26
just to bring on the contract nurses.
24:28
You know, we've talked to some contract nurses and said, what could we do to
24:32
get you to come on board in our agency as staff and as opposed to a contractor?
24:37
And it's largely the pay differential. The contract companies are able to pay
24:41
more than we are able to pay.
24:42
The nurses that stay with us stay with us because they believe in the mission.
24:46
And we are grateful for that. But we need to be able to pay them more so that we are competitive.
24:51
DHHS is facing the same thing, right? We are as a state non-competitive in the
24:55
nursing arena. And that is the problem that we need to fix across the board.
24:58
Well, you know, when you were speaking to the legislature a few weeks ago,
25:03
you got everybody's attention, which was great. I mean, I think for the folks
25:06
that work in the adult corrections area.
25:09
Think they felt somebody was speaking for them in such a public way,
25:14
for real. And that's a lot.
25:16
You know, they need to know somebody's fighting for them. And I think you made that clear.
25:19
But you also got the attention of the legislature on some very specific things.
25:23
One of them was fire safety.
25:24
Why do you think that one got so much attention? I think the visual on that is horrible.
25:30
It's horrific to think about the fact that we have prisons that are concrete
25:33
and bars, and we do not have a way to adequately keep people safe,
25:36
staff and the folks in our custody inside prison.
25:39
And we've got to fix that as a basic safety need.
25:42
I mean, do you want to come to work every day at a place where someone is walking
25:46
around on fire watch instead of to say that there's a fire because we don't
25:49
have the ventilation systems to draw out the smoke and the CO2?
25:53
I mean, no one wants to work in those conditions. No one wants to live in those
25:56
conditions either. And so we've got to fix that.
25:58
I think that part of the challenge has been over the years, because the agency
26:03
has been separate and then together and then separate, is that in budgeting
26:07
and in trying to figure out priorities for budgeting, there's a big category called life safety.
26:12
And, you know, these are all life safety things, but so is HVAC and so are some
26:15
other things that, you know, tend to get lumped in.
26:17
But the thing that is literally critical is our fire safety.
26:21
And so this year, what we did is pull it out and draw that to the legislature's
26:26
specific attention because it has the possibility of being catastrophic.
26:29
And there's a huge liability for the state there too, right?
26:32
It is. Yeah. It is going to cost us way more than $23 million if we have a big event.
26:37
So we can put the $23 million on it and fix the problem.
26:40
And, I mean, just all of these issues seem to compound each other, like the vacancy rate.
26:46
I remember 2017 at the attack at Pasquotank.
26:50
I mean, a fire was a big part of that, right? There was a fire there as well.
26:55
That was the diversion, yeah. Everything that happened that year was so terrible.
26:59
It happened within the span of six months.
27:01
And the legislature was a bit passionate and motivated after that to take some
27:05
steps, and they did, that were very good and corrective.
27:08
But, you know, it's like anything else. It only keeps momentum, but for so long.
27:13
And after that, it was just kind of lost. So how real do you think the possibility?
27:19
We have said as an organization, and you correct us publicly if we're wrong,
27:22
we have said something similar to what you said in committee that day,
27:25
which is this is not a matter, as far as our members tell us,
27:28
it's not if, it's when something like that could happen again in a very real
27:33
possibility way, not a far-fetched idea. No, it's not theoretical.
27:37
It is very much real every single day. And I honestly don't know how we have
27:41
avoided it thus far. I don't know. It's luck.
27:44
It is. It is. And I hope that it continues until we can get it fixed.
27:47
But it is very challenging to think about every single day. You know, we look at our numbers.
27:51
So interestingly, our suicides and our homicides and our accidental deaths,
27:56
which includes our overdoses, were down last year, last calendar year, which is good.
28:00
Which means that, you know, we're doing something right inside the facilities
28:04
to cause those to go down But you look at our assaults and 2020 was a high so
28:09
we don't really we start in 23 We're down from 2020,
28:12
but we are up from 23 in every category of assaultive behavior assaults on staff
28:17
offender on offender assaults We are up
28:19
which is the same as it's a national trend, but is not surprising given our staffing levels.
28:23
And so as those numbers continue to rise, we are going to continue to see bad
28:28
things happen. And so we have got to get out ahead of it.
28:30
Well, your department is not only prisons. You also have a community supervision department.
28:34
We have lots of members who are in that department. What are some of the challenges they face?
28:39
So, you know, our probation parole officers are often out doing supervision
28:43
visits to people's homes and are out in the community. and they're not just
28:48
in the office meeting with people.
28:50
And one of the big reasons why I wanted to get the safety package on board is
28:54
because they don't often get to go with a big group to these locations.
28:58
Some of them are very remote.
28:59
You know, Post-Helene, I went out and visited some of our Western offices.
29:02
And those guys in some cases had to get on ATVs to get out to their supervisees, right?
29:06
And so it is a challenging job
29:08
that we have to make sure that they are supported and they are kept safe.
29:12
And so bringing on the safety package was huge. and then also making sure that
29:16
we got all of our Viper radios sorted out so that we have that fully deployed
29:20
across the agency, I think was a really big deal for them.
29:22
But then the other thing that they're asked to do is really work on community
29:26
supports for all the people that they supervise.
29:29
They are the nexus from custody to supervision, then the transition back into the community.
29:34
So they also perform a lot of social work functions that require them to have
29:39
a lot of soft skills and make community connections so that they can look for
29:44
housing and programming for
29:46
the people that they supervise. So they really have to wear a lot of hats.
29:49
And how hard is it to recruit people for those jobs?
29:51
We have done a better job with that. I think one reason could be the benefits, right?
29:57
Our probation parole officers do get the special separation allowance that law
30:00
enforcement officers get.
30:01
Yeah, they finally got it a few years ago. That's right. And so our vacancy
30:05
rate is slightly better for PPOs than it is for COs.
30:10
But I also credit a lot to our recruitment teams on that front,
30:14
too. We are out and about.
30:15
And also in the communities, you know, correction officers go to work at a facility
30:20
and they do God's work at the facility.
30:22
But PPOs are out in the community. And so the visibility in the community,
30:25
I think, helps with that.
30:26
And so we are trying to do a better job of raising awareness about what the
30:30
folks do in our facilities so that we can draw people to that job and those roles.
30:35
Because there are so many different roles inside our facilities.
30:37
And it seems like a lot, you were talking about nurses who stay early or being
30:41
just kind of committed to the cause.
30:43
And I think that's how it has struck me with some of our members who are PPO,
30:47
that they are very, they're dedicated to serving their community in that way.
30:50
And so they're hanging out, staying in the job, upset, you know,
30:55
and want to see things be better, but it's hard for them to drag themselves
30:58
away from this job that means so much to them to serve their community.
31:02
So I'm not sure what the answer is with them either. I know that.
31:06
Some of the folks felt like the further up you go on the rung,
31:10
sometimes of the ladder, there used to be a disincentive because you wouldn't
31:14
get certain bonuses or things like that. Right, like you can't work overtime
31:16
once you have a certain level of supervision.
31:18
That's right. And so I think that y'all made progress, it seems like, on some of those fronts.
31:22
We have. We have. We have changed the rules recently to allow more staff to
31:27
take advantage of overtime. That's big. It is.
31:29
And we are, you know, our critical staffing levels in prisons has also allowed
31:33
us to potentially open up some overtime opportunities for probation parole officers
31:37
in doing some transport, which is something that they are qualified to do and
31:41
would help on the institution side. Gosh, yes.
31:43
But would also allow opportunities for some overtime.
31:46
Some folks do want and need to work overtime and the availability of some of
31:50
that voluntary overtime, I think, will help with some of that.
31:53
But we certainly need races for our probation parole officers, too.
31:55
And that also was in all three budgets last year, and we hope it will remain.
31:59
And when we win, we do get a budget in 27, I am hopeful.
32:03
Oh, we're going to get one in 27. That's right. 27. Hopefully 26.
32:07
I'm sorry, 26. We're going to get one in 26.
32:09
From your lips to God's ears. No, it's going to happen. It's happening.
32:12
Well, I mean, we've kept you way longer than we said we would.
32:16
We could talk correction.
32:18
Should I say corrections there? So, interestingly, in the industry,
32:20
we say corrections, right?
32:22
Okay. The industry is corrections, but when we were named, we were the Department of Adult Correction.
32:28
Okay. I think we were the only singular nationwide. It is a really, it's awkward to say it.
32:33
It is. Yeah. Do you need a technical corrections? Right, exactly.
32:36
Technical corrections.
32:37
Well, then we would have to pay all this money to redo all of our posters and everything else.
32:43
So, we, you know, we thank you very much for being willing to do this podcast,
32:47
but really, we thank you for the passionate way you've been speaking.
32:50
I mean, you've been speaking out the whole time, but I know that—
32:53
you got a lot more media attention after that passionate speech at the legislature,
32:57
and I hope that'll help. I hope it will, too.
33:00
That was the design. I mean, I, you know, perhaps I was a bit transparent in
33:04
my desire to make sure that everyone understands what we need.
33:07
Well, you know, I think the most striking piece of data I've ever seen about
33:11
prisons is that folks who work there die at age 59, as opposed to the national average of 75.
33:18
To me, that's kind of an end of story, like as to why these positions particularly
33:23
are so very difficult to fill because of the emotional, physical,
33:27
mental toll they take on a person.
33:29
So, I think the passion was appropriate, and we really thank you.
33:34
Sure thing. I hope that it will work. We're not going to let you escape without
33:38
giving you the question of the week.
33:47
I think since we're downtown Raleigh, we don't usually get down here much.
33:51
And maybe our question will be, what is your favorite thing in downtown Raleigh?
33:56
You want to go first? No, no. You go. Okay. You go. Well, I'm going to take
33:59
a cop out, I guess, and say the dinosaur in the history museum. The acro. Yeah.
34:06
I took my son there about 12 years ago, and it was like the highlight of his
34:11
life to see that dinosaur. It's an awesome dinosaur.
34:14
I always thought it was funny that it overlooks the legislature,
34:17
too. You know, like it's looking right at the legislature.
34:20
So what about you, Secretary? My favorite thing about downtown Raleigh is historic Oakwood.
34:26
Oh, OK. It is a beautiful place. A lot of really old homes with a beautiful
34:30
cemetery with a lot of history.
34:31
I think if you haven't given a walk through historic Oakwood,
34:34
everybody should do it. Where is that?
34:36
That way? Near Krispy Kreme. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. That's right. You got it.
34:42
What about you, Artis? I bet it's Broughton High School, right?
34:46
Well, that's not really downtown. Okay. That's close. Yeah, Broughton High School's
34:50
pretty amazing. Thanks for the plug for Broughton High School.
34:52
You know, it's memories with my kids, so it's either the Big Globe that gets
34:57
them excited outside the Museum of Natural Science when they would go there,
35:01
or just the Museum of History, which is not open right now because it's being
35:06
renovated still. Oh, I didn't know that.
35:08
Oh, it's been in renovation for over a year, I think.
35:11
They have a Dale Earnhardt car right in the... They have a really cool statue of Fred A.
35:16
Olds outside, who there's an elementary school near here named for. Oh, my gosh.
35:21
Guess what else they have at that history museum? Lots of NASCAR.
35:24
You're right. And Owen's pottery. No way. Yeah.
35:28
John's family's pottery. Yeah. So we make family makes pottery and we have some
35:32
in the history museum. You haven't plugged your family's pottery in months.
35:35
Three or four months, right? I bet they're upset. You were worried. There it is.
35:39
What about you, Sammy? Well, I was going to say my Pilates studio right down the street.
35:44
But I got to go with Red Hat. I love my concerts. So I go over to Red Hat a lot.
35:49
Yeah. I used to go to the Lincoln Theater for concerts. Is it still there?
35:53
I don't know. You know, it was last time I drove by. See, I'm lame and old now. No, no.
35:58
Yes. Well, it has been many years since I have gone to the Lincoln. Okay.
36:03
Yes. Good shows there. Good shows. Yeah. Well, great. Thanks for joining us and have a good week.