Latest / The Stephan Hogan Podcast / Music Finance Expert Exposes Why Artists Give Up Too Much Too Early

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Music Finance Expert Exposes Why Artists Give Up Too Much Too Early · The Stephan Hogan Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I know a guy, the writer that we work with extensively.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Over 80% of his royalties come from one song he wrote in the 70s.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, he got a 50 multiple, he'd be losing money.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was 50 years ago.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so ownership is important and key.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean by self-delusion?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the best.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like the ego side.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Over-delusion on the negative side would be that here are these massive multiples of what catalogs are worth.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: If someone offers them a sum of money and they're like, I can get so much from my catalog and I'll just write it all again.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, that over-enthusiasm is a good thing.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because success is defined by.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Alex Heike is the founder of Sound Royalties, the company he started in 2014 after seeing a gap in how creators access capital.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Since then, Sound Royalties has provided upfront funding from$5,000 to tens of millions for songwriters, artists, and producers based on their future royalty earnings without taking ownership of their copyrights or requiring personal guarantees.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: The company now serves creatives in 30 countries, has worked with names like Pitbull, DJ Khaled, Lil Wayne, and closed$135 million in funded contracts.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: The bigger story, though, is that Alex seems less interested in hype than in helping creatives build careers that actually last.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Alex, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually really excited to be here.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I I love what you're doing.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love how it goes with the people first and the creative first and your creative forward.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I was looking forward to coming today.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like you are very much that way as well.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm excited to talk to you.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And you I think that you maybe are the biggest man of mystery ever on the podcast.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you have a degree in criminal justice.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you're here in Nashville and you're in finance and you're working with creatives.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's funny how that works out.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think I I think I'm not out of the norm.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of us go to college, not sure what we're gonna do.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I actually thought I was gonna be a lawyer.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I was in uh mock trial uh class, and and one day the professor came in and was like, anybody that's in in in this to be a be a lawyer and thinks you're gonna make money, the average lawyer makes, and I think he said something like$30,000 a year or something astronomically.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, really?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the the professor kind of did a disservice because in reality, um, you can really help people and do a lot of things.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he focused it around the money.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of I was already in the software space while I was in college, and so I gravitated to that for that and many reasons.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: What was that tech space that you were in?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it started off with software for petrochemical, chemical, and nuclear power plants, and then evolved into testing and debugging tools and uh grew from there.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then eventually I found my way into specialty finance, and then eventually I found my way back to music where I wanted to be.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it took a while to figure out where I wanted what I wanted to study in college, and it took a while in my career to figure out where I really wanted to be and what I wanted to be part of.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Was there pressure on you at a young age to feel like you had to figure out what you were doing?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're going deep fast in this conversation.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you just jump you jump from things to things to things.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the lies that we tell ourselves is I'm too old to start over or whatever it is.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you started over and tried a bunch of different things, which is inspiring.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: I just like to go there real quick.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, I, you know, growing up, my father was older.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: He had me in his 40s.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think something we have in common.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um, he was extremely bright.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: He had he had four advanced degrees, two PhDs, two master's degrees, an aeronautical engineer, electrical engineer, a mathematician, and a physicist.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And my brother is extremely bright.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to ride my bike and get my hands on any instrument and play it that I could get my hands on.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was told growing up that I was gonna be a failure, that unless I I focused on the books, unless I focused more on school.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I had good people skills.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I had lots of friends and I really enjoyed spending time with them and collaborating and doing things together.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I was told that was wrong.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: What was right was the books, and that I I really didn't have that I would fail.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And he he loved me.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: He was he he was a great man and I love him very much, but he grew up during World War II.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: He was 15 and 16 by the end of the war and really lost everything.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: Their house was bombed, and and so he lived a life where you could fall back on your education, but nothing nothing else would really help you.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because he was a first generation immigrant.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, he was.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: He he grew up in Germany um and was recruited by the US government to be a scientist for the Navy.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he he really had a hard life because he grew up during a time where they really had nothing.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean um a c a family in California w started being a pen pal with his father, and they sent one year uh a box that had oranges uh two oranges in it, one for him and his brother, and that was his first orange when he was 12, 13, or 14.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And he would always remember that.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, they grew up with very little, and anything they did had they lost.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like this isn't a common theme amongst the first generation immigrants to the states, is that they're so hardworking because of probably multiple factors, but I've also heard stats on the children of first generation immigrants being successful as well.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think the pressure's there.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I think I've I've heard I've read that as well, that the first generation immigrant is comes over and they know they're gonna have to build from scratch, and they know they're gonna have to start, and they instill that in their kids, and their life is tough because it's no there's no overnight success story.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Every overnight success story is at least 10 years in the making.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And they instill that in their kids, and then their kids do well, and then the next generation does a little bit less well because there isn't as much pressure, and then the next generation really doesn't do well, and it's kind of starts the cycle over again.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you were in the perfect spot in theory, in the perfect spot.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you sit in a rare position where you get to see ambition, fear, talent, and money all collide.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: What have you learned about human nature from watching creators when they are under pressure?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Creators are constantly under pressure, and what they do is very difficult, but they're able to redirect that into something that's beautiful.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're able to say uh things that I wish I could say or put words to or put melodies together that I could never dream of and and then evoke emotions from me.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: All that within the pressure of, hey, I can't just be a songwriter.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I need to be a songwriter.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: I should also be a producer, I should also uh, you know, be a tour manager and and juggle all these different things in order to do what I love most.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I I constantly look at creators as, you know, they have for the most part a thankless job, but they focus on doing what they want to feel that their heart is telling them to do and what they're passionate about.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if we all did that, this world would be a completely much better place.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you did that as well, just to tie in as we talk about kind of what you do now versus where you've been.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we were just talking about how you were gonna be a lawyer.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then can you tell me those other ones again?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: I switched to switched to software, and then I got into specialty.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then I in 2013 I had the realization that I really wanted to be something in the music industry, part of of the music industry, one cog in the wheel or a small piece of that cog.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I traveled to Nashville, and I didn't understand how the business worked, how publishers worked and publishing and how the sound recording worked.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I I knew finance, so I started to visit the entertainment bankers here in the industry.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And as I spoke to the entertainment bankers, I realized that they were turning away upwards of 85% of the people that walk through their door.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And those are people that you walk into a bank and you apply when you think you qualify.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and so I saw a need there.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when I started to formulate the idea of sound royalties, you know, a creator-friendly solution that could provide funding and access to financing and funds on their works today without having to give up ownership in the future.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And let me explain that.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: The industry as I saw it in 2013 and 2014 when Sound Royalties was actually founded, uh, was an industry where you gave up a percentage of your futures in order to get money.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: You signed a pub deal, you signed a label deal.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you gave a percentage if you couldn't afford to pay your attorney or a manager, you you gave them percentages.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And those percentages could grow into enormous amounts.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like percentages of intellectual property, percentage of ownership of your IP, and also a percentage of your income and your royalties coming forward.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um all because you're in a desperate, like, I need the money now, so I'm gonna make a bad decision that might affect me down the road.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: But right now I need the money, and that's what's gonna get me through.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not really thinking about what the future me is gonna say to the this decision.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're making a short-term decision with a long-term asset.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, ramifications.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and you you have that viral moment, you have that big sink, and all of a sudden that short-term decision is a lot bigger than you thought it was.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and I want to be clear labels play a very important part.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Publishers play a very important part.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're needed.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And as you reach this, that level where you can use their services, you want to be part of that wheel.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: But making a decision about a percentage of ownership in order to get those services is a different story.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it should be at the right time when when you when it's not out of desperation, but it's really out of collaboration.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: If there was like an elevator pitch for what you do exactly as town royalties, what would it be?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we're a media finance company that funds music, film and TV, YouTube content.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: We provide financing under a few core principles.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna go beyond the elevator space for a minute and say we're creative friendly, creator-friendly financing solution.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not just gonna say that, I'm gonna back it up.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna give you five things that really outlialties is creator-friendly.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: One, we're not taking a percentage of ownership.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you're financing them out and we say, okay, well, pay us back$10, that number is$10.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: You have that viral moment, you have you explode.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: You don't you have a billion streams, you still only pay$10.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's no personal guarantees, there's no late fees, you know, there's no risk.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Secondly, there's no right of first refusal.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna give you our first and best solution over and over again.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's a revolving door.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: You can come back again and again and again.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of companies put in their contracts these right of first refusals where they say, Oh, go out and if you can find something better that's better for you, come back.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: We can match it.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, whoever you work with should give you their best solution first.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Beyond that, you're working with real people.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: You won't need$5,000, you need$20 million.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're working with real people before, during, and after.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can pick up the phone and speak to a live person.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: You can send an email and get a same day, next business day response or within two hours normally.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: But if you hit us after the end of the day, it'll be the next business day.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Four, it's not a hundred percent recoupement.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: The deals that I saw in 2014 were yes, we'll give you an advance, but you don't see a penny until you recoup.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's changed.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I like to think that we had a part and sound royalty's had a part in that change, in the sense that um if you pay us$10, how about we spread it out over five years?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's$2 a year for the next five years.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Anything more than that is yours.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Anything less, don't worry, we'll take the risk.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's no late fees, no penalties, we're not gonna go against your other royalty streams or your other assets or you personally.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that really makes us creator friendly.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then that last fifth pillar that I'll bring in is that we don't replace what you're already doing or want to do.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning we're not a publisher, we don't do publishing, we're not a label or distributor, we don't do that.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're purely finance.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: You should work with the companies that are great at what they do with that and find the best fit for you.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if you piece those five things together and I tell them in different orders each time, but you piece it all together, that is as creative-friendly a solution that I can and we can as a team think of at Sound Royalties.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: It is such a solution.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems like you probably back to doing tech, you probably saw a um opening in the marketplace.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you had talked about you probably like when you were doing the nuclear whatever, I don't know, there was probably an opening in the the market for that tech or whatever you you have been doing throughout your life and career, and you came here and and you got involved in music, but you saw like the need for something like this.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, you're giving people an advance now is and it's predicated on future earnings.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like um VC money where it's like this is a creator, we're gonna invest in them because we see that they have a bright future ahead of them, versus this person just had a number one song.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: We know roughly that they're gonna get paid X amount, but they won't get that money for the until like over a year from now.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna be able to fund them that money now that they would get a year from now, so they can get their future earnings.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and and that history of what they've created can be extremely small.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: If you think about the minimum, is$5,000 a year from any one stream.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's$400 and something dollars a month.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and the reason we wanted to make that as low as possible, put that bar as low as possible to give them white glove service and to talk to them and walk them through and develop custom solutions for them.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that bar is really low.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: It can't get much lower than that because think about an old house.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: You go in there and you turn on the tap.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: What does the water do?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of sputters until it flows.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that was kind of the threshold point where, okay, at that point we can safely predict to some degree what someone's gonna earn in the future and enable them to tap into that to get the financing they need today, with us taking the risk of whether it's really gonna play out.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of it's predicated on you're just doing a projection.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you've ever wondered why you see that little Frenchie in every episode of my podcast, it's there for a reason.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: What I care about here is real conversation, real people, and real human connection.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's why partnering with Studio Bank made sense to me.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Their mission is to empower creators, and they say that that little Frenchie is more than just a logo, it's smart, active, adaptable, and a natural companion.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sophisticated but not pompous, rare and one of a kind.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: That felt like a real fit for this podcast and this show and what I'm all about.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're around Music Row, you've probably heard of Studio Bank or know someone that banks with them, and there's a reason for that.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: They set out to rethink the typical experience, put people at the center of it, infuse innovative technology with genuine hospitality.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Their whole idea is to be uncommonly modern and surprisingly human.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big part of why I'm proud to partner with them.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: They do not make you feel like a number.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: You get real people, real support, and a team that actually cares about what you're building, whether that's your business, your family, or your future.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: They also offer immediate ATM fee reversal at any ATM machine in the entire world.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's why a lot of my friends that are on the road bank with them, visit studiobank.com or call 615-338-9998.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Let them know Stefan Hogan sent you and see how Studio Bank can serve you today.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Studio Bank member FDIC Equal Housing Lender.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sound realties, the analysts sit down and they'll look at what historically has happened and project into the future.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's about a dozen factors that we use to do that projection.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, every genre has a different uh curve.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Country for the longest time has a very slow rise to get a song to the top of the charts and a long tail behind it.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Other genres, they'll pop overnight, you'll be at the top of the charts, and next week you won't hear that that work again.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, the age of a catalog, the depth of the catalog, how much of it is synced, that's non-repeatable income.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, all this goes into play.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and we've got over a decade now of experience in building those models to project them out.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And back to your VC point, you know, when a VC or a private equity firm invests in you, they want to make a return on their money.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: They want to make 15% plus on their money typically.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: So what do they have to put the money, what does that company have to put the money out for?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we're not backed by by VCs or private equity firms, and as some of the finance companies are, and unfortunately, that means they have to charge a lot more.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: And our pricing, uh it's important for sound royalties that the pricing be fair, be transparent, uh, and be as as equivalent to asset-based lending from a bank.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious because as we read in that intro, there's some big names like Pitbull.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm the my first thought was why would Pitbull need to get an advance?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's just a question I asked myself because I was like, he probably has quite a bit in assets.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: He probably has a great team that's like financial management for him and advisors or however that works.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Why would a pitbull or a DJ Khaled need the advance?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you're right.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: You look at Pitbull extra and DJ Khaled, they're extremely smart businessmen and they have teams that and and and they have assets to back it out, back that up.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they've built that because of their savvy.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's take those people out of it and talk why would someone at that level want financing?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: For lots of reasons.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you leverage your assets to grow even more.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, whether it's to fund a project that others don't want to fund, are you going to tap into cash reserves or is it better for you to finance?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, fund a project, uh, tour production, uh, buy a house.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, whether you're buying a$200,000 house or a$20 million house, the same approach of how do I finance that comes comes into play.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: So so they're leveraging that success in a safe and creative way to finance their future.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Without touching liquidity or investment.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody at all levels, if if they're savvy business people, understand the value of leverage.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting because when you get into savvy business people, it's very, and this is not to be controversial, but it's very against the uh Dave Ramsey principle of finance that a lot of people go to for advice, which I think probably he gives a lot of great advice.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also the ultra, ultra wealthy.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And for them to be ultra wealthy, they couldn't really do it the Dave Ramsey way.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, like uh the people that use leverage to be able to increase their portfolio, they have to use leverage in order to do that.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes sense to be able to do that.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and sometimes they don't have to, right?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: They they want to fund this project and they need$10 million to do it.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And they realize that, hey, this project is a slam dunk.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to bring on investors that are going to take the ownership of it to provide the cash, or do I want to finance it from here?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give you an easier example.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say you bought a car two, three years ago, and they offered you 0% financing for five years.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, 0% financing.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Now you have the cash for that in your bank account.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And because interest rates shot up, you're getting a 3 or 4% return in your savings account or money market account for that.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Don't use that money necessarily to pay off that 0% loan while you're getting 3% on that money.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just draw the payments from there for that.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Same theory.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're actually making money because of that smart decision.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we are creatives, right?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: You work with these creative people.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the further along in the creative journey and the more that you make, the more you have to learn the financial and the fiscal side of the business, whatever that is for you.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I think many people go from is moving to Nashville Young, let's just say Nashville, moving to Nashville Young, blind optimism to all the way over here where it's like a superstar level.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: You have millions or hundreds of millions of dollars.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And along that path, there's all these financial decisions.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's this influx of cash.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's paying out the label.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say if you're in music, the publishers, the management, the touring, all of the things, um, the recoupments.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have what what you have left over that maybe you're investing in in real estate uh or physical assets or are those called hard assets?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Let's call them tangible assets.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Tangible assets.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know the financial logo.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Hard assets, real assets, yeah.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: But what are because man, I'll just be uh frank with you, and I think when I say this, it other people are gonna feel what I'm feeling is the world of finance seems very overwhelming.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it almost feels like a foreign language.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not taught how to even manage money, much less do anything else with it when we're growing up in school, if we're in a public school system like myself or my wife, or probably you.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you want to be out riding your bike playing guitar.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: I taught I was as a kid, you know.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and um, it's you don't you're not being taught about money, you're not even thinking about money because you're just not at that point in life.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: But then you get older, and then all of a sudden you're like, man, I need money skills, but I have none and I don't know where to start.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there's like a hundred different people saying a hundred different things about what I should do with money on TikTok.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I am overwhelmed, confused, and I feel like I need someone in finance that understands all this stuff.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I got to the point where Haley and I, what was the class we took?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the accounting?
• 24:58
  unknown: Yeah, accounting.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we did like the Harvard online business school, like um, but they have a program that's for accounting.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: But both me and her, it was like so over our heads and it moved so fast that it was like uh like I think it was like balance sheets and stuff like that.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, dude, I'm a creator, and I did terrible.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: I fail I dropped out of high school.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: I went to junior college and got my associate's degree.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: My mom was a teacher, made her very proud.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and so it was like I had to close that chapter of my life so I didn't feel like a failure, but all that just to thing we have in common.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh dude, Alex, I might be in finance someday.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean, I I get where I'm coming from.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, man, where and I hear this term EBITDA.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the term?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like as I go in business and life, the older I get, the more I realize how much I don't know and how overwhelming things get for everybody, I think.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so can you maybe walk us through some like money for dummies?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, where to start?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Where to start?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'll make it real simple.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I I applaud how deep you guys went and you know, into accounting and everything else, and and that's that's awesome.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but for me, if I went to that, some of it would be over my head and be like, how do I apply this?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're, you know, when people call into Sound Royalties and talk to some of our royalty specialists, the first part is separate the money decision from the rest of the decision.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because quite often when you go buy that car, how much of a monthly payment do you want?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: They build the conversation around the monthly payment rather than what you're truly paying for the car, right?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: When you sign that label deal, when you sign that distribution deal, when you uh, you know, separate the two.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Had an artist.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um What does that mean?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Can you yeah, I'm gonna give you an example.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: So had an artist that uh we work with that and it this is a huge example, but it works at all levels.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he had a$35 million distribution offer for a 10-year distribution deal.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: A$35 million distribution offer for a 10-year distribution deal.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: So here's$35 million, sign this agreement, and we'll do your distribution for the next 10 years.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the rub was he came and asked us what we thought, and we looked at it and said, look, they're charging you an 18% distribution rate.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Revisit the conversation and ask what you will pay if you don't take in advance.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And act, and and we provide you the financing.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if you look at the money by itself, and he looked at the money by itself with us, looked at his new distribution deal, and said, okay, if I don't take the money, I'm month to month, but I like these people, I want to stay with them.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And to this day, he's still with years later with that entity, and they're a great entity.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: But he's saving a million dollars a year because he separated the two.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: So whenever you make a money decision, signing a distribution deal, signing a publishing deal, you know, signing that tour uh live nation contract and they're giving you an advance.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Separate the two and really weigh them, the cost of the money by itself and what you're trying to accomplish and the money that's being offered with it.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: And if you compare the two, you can figure out which is better for you.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's better to take that advance.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Great, do it.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it it all boils down to starting with separating it and just looking at it by itself.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: You have lots of financial decisions that you're making, whether it's your home and your mortgage and whether you should make that extra payment.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: But you have other debt.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have credit card debt?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a car loan?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but I have this cash.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Should I pay this off?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, Dames R Dave Ramsey has some great points in the sense that you should have a rainy day fund.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then from there, look at your most expensive debt.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And is it worth keeping it as opposed to applying money somewhere else, or should you pay it down?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: So what's step two after uh separating the debt or the financial side from what was it, the word that you used?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Separating it from the actual decision of what you're trying to approach.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: The decision of what you're hungry.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: So like goal over here, money over here, kind of a thing.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I got you.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can really weigh the two out and and decide.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm over here now, you've got the money, and over here you've got the decision.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I want to do this project.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the money.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: I can take the money with the project, and this is what I'm giving up.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, quite often it's it's a short-term decision that could have long-term ramifications.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: I can ask you a question within this publishing deals, draws.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is this one of those things that could be sure?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, so the less money I take on the draw, the less I take on the draw, the more ownership I have over my publishing.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that's separating the two.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: So then is it one of those things where on the financial side, you guys could look at, okay, this is what you're gonna get paid.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it like with a draw, it's not necessarily guaranteed that you're gonna recoup that money.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: So then it's really risky because some people will be signed for three years, they'll never get that number one, they'll never recoup.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then they're there for much longer than they wanted to be.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or you know, it's that's is that a circumstance in which the sound royalties structure would work, or is it more on a guaranteed return?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, it that would we would look at if they're offering you a publishing deal, you have some publishing or some royalties coming in on the writer's side, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're saying, look, we're gonna give you a co-pub deal, 50-50, and we're gonna give you this amount of money.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: That may be the best deal and the right deal for you.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, say, okay, well, what if I don't take that money?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I want, I don't want necessarily an admin deal.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want more.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: I want your creative services.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: I want, you know, you to pitch me for sync, and I want you uh to help me set up rights and get cuts for me.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't want money.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: What does that deal look like?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that percentage and that that lockup term might be shorter.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then, okay, over here, sound royalties, this is what I'm making or what I've made.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what do you see me making in the future based off of this?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And what can I access?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then make a decision.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: What's the best for you?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's going to be different.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sometimes that pub deal makes sense, or that label deal, distribution deal makes sense to take the money with the deal, but focus on the deal itself and separate the money.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: I get that.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense to me, separating the two.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I probably will take this from this conversation and start applying it to my life and starting to think about money and finance in terms of the money side and then what you're actually accomplishing or doing and how that they're two separate things.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's a cool framework.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's pretty easy to understand, and it's detaching yourself from the money and looking at it a little more macro.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Correct?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, exactly.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: You got it.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, what would be your next piece of advice for someone that's trying to learn about money?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Look at where your money's going.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, overall, look at all the flow of money that's coming in and where it's going out.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: And are you servicing debt that's higher cost?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Are you spending a lot more than you realized on subscriptions or you know, whatever it may be?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And are how do you live today with a little bit less stress?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, balance it all out.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and you can stop by Studio Bank and and and talk to some of the advisors there, or call Sound Royalties and talk to some of the advisors there and and have lay out your picture of your situation and and see it.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: They'll have a one-on-one conversation whether you want a transaction or not, and and try to help help give you the best they can.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've done it with them before.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've sat down with Ron and Carrie, and they've been awesome.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is an artist question that I'm interested in.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Does money usually free artists or does it expose who they already were?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you talk about too much money, I think it just it it puts an accent on who someone really is.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: It accentuates who they really are.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, I I I know a lot of people that have a significant amount of money that one, you wouldn't even know about it, so they're humble, and two, they're caring.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they live by the mantra.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Dalai Lama once said, and I I live by this, I love it, is help people.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can't help them, don't hurt 'em.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Simple as that.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Try and help people.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I I can't help everybody.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: You can't help everybody.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: But the ones we can't help, don't hurt them.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great quote.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: Say it again.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Help people.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can't help them, don't hurt them.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: So on the other side of that, what does self-delusion look up or look like up closed and creative people?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that you experience?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: What do you mean by self-delusion?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and in like those projections um of future earnings and stuff like that, of or of or their career.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm the best, I'm going to make, I'm going to be the next, whatever.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like the ego side.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's two sides to that that I would I I'd touch on.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, does that enter the financial side, I guess?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, because you know, there's there's two sides to that.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think one, and oh over-delusion on the negative side would be that here are these massive multiples of what catalogs are worth.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: If someone offers them a sum of money and and they're like, you know what, I can get so much from my catalog, and I'll just write it all again.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know a guy, a writer that we work with extensively, and he over 80% of his war his royalties come from one song he wrote in the 70s.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: He still writes today.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And had he sold that for whatever amount of money, 10, 20, 30 multiple, unless he got a 50 multiple, he'd be losing money.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was 50 years ago, right?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so ownership is important and key.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Don't lose sight of that as no matter how great you're doing, owning that asset has a lot of value, especially in today with the bundling issue and and catalogs uh feeling uh some of the impact of that as investors come in.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Which we see a ton of IP being bought up.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: I had this conversation recently, but just like IP being acquired by the big three labels.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then buying up publishing companies and catalogs seems like a massive consolidation of IP.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a safe investment.
• 37:31
  unknown: Yeah.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and and so a lot of money is flowing into the music industry.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and and don't lose sight of the true value of what your works are are worth.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, I want I that over-enthusiasm is a good thing.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because success is defined, in my opinion, by enduring failure after failure without losing enthusiasm.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: You keep having that failure.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: But if you have that enthusiasm and you have that initial enthusiasm when you first had this idea, but you keep going at it, something will work.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Something will click.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's that's a beautiful thing that a lot of creatives had.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they write song after song after song that goes nowhere, but they love it and they keep doing it and don't lose that enthusiasm until that success comes.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the only way you'll get that success if if you don't quit and you keep trying.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have to believe in yourself for others to believe in you.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there's um, I think in my own life, there's a level of delusion, self-admittedly, that I have, where I've had to bet on myself to be able to go after something, and it's really difficult, and there's this part of the you start the something, the idea feels great, and you're like, hmm, this is great, and then you start it, and then you end up in the valley of despair where you're like, What am I doing?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in debt, we're in the red, blah blah blah blah.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm losing sleep and grinding my teeth at night, everything, the world's falling apart.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then I mean, psychologists have studied this whole valley of despair idea that after that the there's like a hockey stick effect, and that's where most people quit, is in that part where it gets so difficult that they give up.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: And what you just said was so important because it's the people that don't quit.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: You said don't lose that enthusiasm.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: They had when they first dove into it.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: When they first dove into it, they knew 100% this was the right thing to do, it was the right way to approach it.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't care what level you are.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: You all we all have that despair and that self-quit, you know, we talk about negative core beliefs, right?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Fear of failure.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's a huge one on mine.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I my father, as I mentioned, instilled that in me.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: And to this day, that I continue to work, work, work, work, work because I feel like failure is just around the corner.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Unless I keep moving the needle and keep pushing forward and keep trying, that's one of my native core beliefs that failure is just right around the corner.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I have those dark moments and I do grind my teeth.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: My Haley will tell you, my wife, you know, but what does failure look like for you?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean when you say failure?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think it's a little different for everybody.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I'll put the two together, success and failure, right?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think failure from a tangible money asset is is is is is not being able to do the support my family the way that I want to support my family, right?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the positive side one is enough enough.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: And enough is enough when more doesn't make your life better, it just makes it bigger.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and so failure on the other side, the non-tangible, the the personal side is not focusing and having the attention to be present in the moment with family, with my relationships, with my faith.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and and on the positive side, it's it's success is making sure I'm aligned in in in in family and relationships and and giving that the the position it deserves in my mind and in my time and my faith.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like that you've had to uh live an unbalanced life to live a balanced life?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, because of that negative core belief of failure.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm constantly fearing failure and justifying diving into the work and you know going back to it again and again and again.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's something that I I struggle with and I comfort myself in thinking that most of us do, you know, and and really have to check themselves.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Has there ever been a moment where you you felt good enough?
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have moments where we stop and we're like, wow.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'll give you an example Sound Royalties, right?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was an idea just came out of my head.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I I put it down on a napkin and then it started to grow from there.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: And in each moment along the way, it felt like things weren't moving forward.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it's kind of like planting a tree, right?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: You look at it, you see nothing, and you check it periodically, you see nothing.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: But if you come back every year, the growth is there and it's undeniable.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the same thing happens with sound royalties.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: We do this wrap at the end of every year of what we did in that year, and it's always like, oh my God.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's incredible.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: The the growth is there and undeniable.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when you feel really good.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then you go back into it again and start all over.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you're 12 years into this business?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: Founded in 2014.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Was there a dip before a climb?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: And when you started this business, did you have investors that you you started it with?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm just curious about how that works.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's the right way to start a business?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I can't tell you the right way to start a business because for everybody it's different.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: What I can tell you is I I quite think often uh of coming to Nashville very early on and before Sound Royalties was even formed, and I talked to you about visiting entertainment bankers.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: One of them who's a very close friend to this day, and we joke about it now, he he I told him what I wanted to do with Sound Royalties before it was formed.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, it'll never work.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: I said, I want to build this company that provides advances and financing to creatives where we don't buy the copyrights, we're not 100% recoupment, and you know, we're working with them in a in a creative way to secure that funding so that they can continue to grow.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, there's not enough demand for that.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a market for that.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we pioneered, Sound Royalties pioneered that and went for it anyway.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that was before it started.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Then it started.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: And as it started, I remember coming to Nashville and people, it felt to me like people put me in the corner of, oh, this is, you know, this is going to be a uh payday lender or whatever.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it took years of being part of the community, learning from the community, collaborating and and building trust and over time to be able to form that end understanding of that we are creative friendly and we are here to do the right things.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, it it it it took a long time.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And there's that growth, you know, in the moment felt like we're getting nowhere for years, but each year, wow.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: What year was the turning point where you looked at it and you felt like the winds were really like starting to pick up in your sales?
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: Probably each year I saw growth, but I and and and significant growth.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it really 2016, 2017, 2018, it really started to get traction and we really started to get recognized um for being creative friendly.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: So two, three, four years into the business, yeah.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're starting to see the momentum.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: But those first two years are just grinding it out, taking.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think I uh I I read that you basically took coffee meetings with anybody and everybody.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I s to this day I'll I'll have uh Or you don't drink caffeine, but I I take coffee meetings, have lunch meetings, I'll meet with creatives, whether it's on Zoom or because I'm in awe of what they can do.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in awe of all all creators.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh as I mentioned before, to be able to say the things that I want to say.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I played instruments, I could and can condition myself to play just about anything.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's my first love, but it's not my first language.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: I can't speak it.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: That solo is someone else's solo.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Those that melod the those words are things that I wanted to say.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm starting a little bit now in creative writing and trying uh writing lyrics and stuff, but it'll never be what I'm in awe of those true creators.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is there somebody you believed in early where you walked away thinking this person is different?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: Ashley McBride.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um got a call from her manager at the time saying, hey, she's coming down to play a festival in West Palm Beach.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um you have an office there, um, you know, could you help?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: And love the music.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so we we sponsored her through, put a little money on it, and she stopped and played for uh for the staff.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: And to see where she's come all this time is just incredible.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and to feel like just to be able to touch a moment.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and every time I see her, she's always she's she's an artist that has grown, and that success has accentuated the great, humble, kind person that she is.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um we had another artist, I think it was around 2018.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: Brent Fayez was in town, and I didn't even know the name, and most of us didn't in 2018.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: And uh someone from the office said, Hey, we're talking to a manager, his artist's in town.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: We meet him for coffee.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, you know what?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't we do breakfast at Marsh House?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so we met at Marsh House and they sat down and had breakfast, and he was a great guy.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, you know, I'm I'm I'm doing a show tonight at Cannery Row.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: Would you stop by?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I'd love to.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I stopped by and I think he was in the mill.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so he's playing for about 400 people.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what he was doing.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and we we Sound Royalties provided financing to him, and to not to the tune of millions, but to the tune of thousands, and those thousands helped him grow.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he had credits that it it helped him grow, that by 2020, he was on the cover of Billboard magazine and doing arena tours.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: He went from two, three, four hundred person venue, and to see that growth and to be part of it, it that's awesome.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: That is awesome, man.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: Seems like uh there's a level of success one can achieve through virality, through YouTube being online, even through organically uh, you know, just releasing music that might just pick up and go viral.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: So there's like that side of things of like luck almost.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also a very calculated side to creativity that needs money.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like getting a song to the top of the charts needs the funding in radio promo, because you mentioned earlier that it could it could take a year on that that song climbing, slowly climbing until it gets to a number one spot.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or they could decide like it's like falling back, but then they decide to make a push and then they get it there.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: But it requires money.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times I wonder, like, even with what we do here, I'm like, if we had X amount of money, we could do this, this, and this, we could scale faster, and the business would be able to grow exponentially in a very short period of time.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: However, we don't have the funding.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: So then I'm like kind of the person that's just doing it the, you know, I'm digging it out of the clubs as if a musician would, just by reps and gigs, just by episodes, you know.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when you guys are able to lend money to someone like that scenario, where you can go from a 400-person room to arenas and the cover of Billboard magazine.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think money's such an important component in being able to be fuel in what's already working.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: What are the emerging markets that you're seeing that are starting to get that fuel behind them?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's interesting.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think also how you get that money we talked about.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so to be able to get thousands that didn't tie up the percentage of the futures in that example to Arena Tours really made a huge difference.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing to keep in mind is if you take an advance from someone, they don't want to see you typically until you recoup.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, with us, it's a revolving door.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: Take this today.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you need more, come back tomorrow, you know, and we'll work with you.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's constantly want to talk with you and work around, work with you.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of the emerging markets, it's you got to look at the adoption of streaming.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: This whole industry has shifted.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, like it or not, there's some several pivotal things that have happened that have shifted the industry one and in into streaming.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have to look at the adoption of streaming.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, initially it was in the US um and it expanded into Latin America much faster than other parts of the world.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it's expanded heavily now into Europe, and the adoption of streaming is there.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and so those decisions, and that's why we now have we have uh people in in the UK and Germany and and Colombia, and that those markets are really growing and looking at those early stage decisions uh like we were 10 years ago as we had hit our well, 12 years ago, 2014, we'd the industry had hit its lowest moment in 15 years in terms of global music recorded revenues.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Year after year after 1999, total global music recorded revenues dropped.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: Lower and lower and lower.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: And 2014 was the pivotal moment when it shifted, and each year we've continued to grow.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that growth is some of those emerging markets.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: What about um I think uh I had read you like YouTube.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is one big one.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: Where people are now monetizing their YouTube channels if they're getting millions of views and subscribers and that kind of thing.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: Are you guys working with YouTubers and influencers?
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: We are.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we do YouTube financing.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, we started two years ago.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't announce it.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was sort of like Sound Royalties.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sound royalties, the initial uh financing that we provided and still provide to this day, the first year was really about fine-tuning and tweaking and not in a rush to grow the company.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: And YouTube was the same way.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: In the first year, we did, you know, a couple dozen uh deals and transactions with YouTube creators.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: Then last year, we formally announced it because we really had it fine-tuned.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: And now we see creators coming through the door that we're able to help that are YouTube creators, similar to the way we help the music industry.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: What are the YouTube creators?
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I would put myself in that category or like, you know, you having a podcast that you're growing.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: What are they looking for?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the same kind of idea in terms of like projected fine like revenue?
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think YouTube creators, that whole market is at an earlier stage.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: But as they grow, they're realizing they need a team.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not as common as in the music industry.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I need a manager, oh, okay, I need a business manager, oh, I need a lawyer, right?
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: YouTube creators are defining their teams and they come at us and their teams are different sometimes, but they're starting to see that, hey, I can go to a certain level by myself.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: And we all have that belief that we can do everything ourselves best.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: But if you really want to grow, you've got to find people that can do those things better than you can and entrust in them to do it.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're building teams and they need to pay those teams and they're creating more content and they need to fund the creation of those content.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and so when they're having those money decisions, very few people, it's you can't really walk into a bank and expect them to understand YouTube royalties, right?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and so there's so much red tape in in banking.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: And but they can turn to sound royalties, and sound royalties can look at their YouTube content and their YouTube royalties and and show them options that when they need it, this is what's accessible and available to you.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and wake up every day getting to do it is is is a great thing.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Artists, managers, labels.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: Are you looking for high quality, affordable merch item your biggest fans will actually buy?
• 55:42
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• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're an easy way to brand specific tours, albums, or a special project, and not offering them leaves real money on the table at any career level.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: With unbeatable pricing, top-tier quality, fast turnaround times, and hands-on customer service, the graphic guitar guys work with everyone from Stadium X to bands touring in a van.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do yourself or your artist a favor and see what the graphic guitar guys can do for you.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: What is the most dangerous story a creator can tell themselves when they're thought looping?
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think quite often I see creatives tell themselves that this is it, that the war that the catalog that they built isn't going to grow anymore and that they should take this offer and sell it.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: And they're missing so many of the key points.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody's willing to pay that for it, you know, they're not aware of Goldman Sachs, the music in the report that projects between now and 2032 royalties are going to double.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're not aware of the impact of bundling by Spotify and some of the other DSPs is having on their catalog, and that when someone goes to buy their catalog, they're pricing in that uncertainty.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: What is bundling?
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: So bundling in its simplest form is you have a DSP that was charging 10 bucks a month for music.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so like Spotify.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like my membership's 10 bucks a month.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: That kind of thing.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they started charging for books 10 bucks a month.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: And whether those books were really audiobooks were used, whether you really marketed the audiobooks, whether they truly had the value of 10 bucks a month overnight.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: They say we're going to offer our listeners books and music for 10 bucks a month.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, it's a bundle, and we only have to pay the music creators$5 a month of money because that's all that's going to the music creator.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's happening right now.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's going to, uh as we get into the copyright royalty board hearings in this next year, it's going to be litigated.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm confident it's going to be in favor of the creators.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: But right now, there's hundreds of millions of dollars that's not going to the creatives.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, maybe the streams are growing because of the international growth and the emerging growth and other things, but you're not seeing all the growth.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so that negative belief that I have to sell can be wrong.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's not.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe the creator knows that bad news is coming and their catalog is going to disappear for one reason or another.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: But they should make that decision when they're in a good headspace, not in a bad one and out of fear.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: And catalog is a term that you're using that I would say, because I think of songwriters having catalogs, and some people will sell part of their catalog.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: And are you when you say that, are you specifically referring to songwriters or are you referring to other verticals within the business?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: The body of work.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: So anybody's body of work.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's it's masters.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: Your masters, you're publishing, you know, all of it.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: That makes more sense.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that about the litigation side because I was um looking at, you know, who pays the most and who pays the least in terms of royalties, and Amazon's paying out the most per one million streams, and Spotify's paying the least per 1 million streams.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so what you're saying is I don't know if those numbers are based off of when it was$10 for all music, or if it's because of bundling.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or if those numbers are based off of the bundling.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean the million streams of Spotify was 1,000 something, and with Amazon Music, it was 3,000 something.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a big discrepancy.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's the other DSPs in the middle, but that was the high and the low.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: But what you're saying is that the more they bundle, the more music's gonna miss out on revenue that they're already not making because you could have an album cut on a Taylor Swift record, probably.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: And if you were one of four writers, yeah, and it's streaming, but it's not the single, yeah, and it didn't go to radio, you're still not, you might not even be able to recoup off of that.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: Am I far am I far off?
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're not.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and and it it's sad, and it's not just bundling.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the whole there's a whole black box of how do they calculate the royalties they pay out.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's not transparent.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we really, I can't sit down and say, this is why you're paid this from Spotify.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: And this is all the movements of the money and how much of it is selective that the you know, bonus money versus you're definitely going to get paid this for this.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's so complex.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we put on our our website um a document called 50 income streams every creative should know about and where to find them, because there's so many pots of money that creatives don't even know.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: And those pots shift.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: What's the website?
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh www.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: Soundroyalties.com.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: So there's an actual list on there for everybody listening.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_01: 50 income streams every creative should know about and where to find them, right?
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: Soundroyalties.com.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's cool.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you have a great resource.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: That almost is gonna help with my earlier question about just like understanding financial sides a little more.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're gonna provide that that little probably PDF or whatever the download is for people to be able to read that.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's sick.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: What is something that you understand about long-term careers that most of the music business still gets wrong?
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I'm I'm qualified to answer that.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think in terms of the long-term success, it's it's in order to grow, you need to leverage that right label, that right publisher, that right manager, that right team.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you've got to entrust in them.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: Just like in business, right?
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: If I look at Sound Royalties, part of our success is if you look at my business partners, they all bring something to the table and and they specialize in something that they're far better at than I am.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: We all work in each other area, each other's areas together and we collaborate and we, you know, dive into different areas of the business, but we all bring something that we trust the others so much better, what they're doing than I could ever be.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you look at our staff, the staff at Sound Royalties, we have an awesome team that's creative friendly and leads with the heart first.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: And to put that all together, that's how you have long-term success.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about getting that one transaction or that one buck.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: It never has been.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if it was, it would have failed a long time ago.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: So team, teamwork, the right people and the right places to do the right jobs, and they're excellent at it.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and trusting them to do it.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you trust them.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: Follow the direction.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think about this a lot, um, talking with managers and meeting people.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm someone that is a control freak.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to the idea of like teams or someone saying, like, you should do this or this, I think there's some resistance sometimes that people have to someone helping manage their career, and other people blindly go into agreements with someone that's a manager that promises them the world and doesn't deliver.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's so there's two sides of the pendulum.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you talked a little about the YouTube stuff, which I'm gonna apply to any small business.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be YouTube, but how do you know when to bring on a team?
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you know the right team members?
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you vet them?
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because I've always had this like motto like hire slow, fire fast.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: But when you sign a deal with a manager and their sunset clauses, like you're kind of tied to that person for quite some time, even if you let them go.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: So what are you what are your thoughts there on that team building and how to do it the right way and when to do it?
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the the one piece of advice I got a long time ago that kind of stuck with me is as if you can find someone can do the thing that you're looking at or that you're doing 80% as well as you can.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're always gonna think we're better and can do it all ourselves.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: But if you can find someone that can do it 80% as good as you, pass it down, push it down, and keep re-evaluating.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you find they're not doing it 80% as well, yeah, then that's the wrong person.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you still gotta watch.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I've heard Dan Martell say that.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you know who that guy is, I don't.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_00: He's a user.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's where I heard it, but but he yeah, he says the same thing.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know who the originator is.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: But if they can do it 80% as well, it's a win all day long.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: Let it go.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: Push it down because then you can start to focus on things that you haven't even thought about that need attention.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you can grow your business into areas you hadn't even realized you needed to take it.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then about the team.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, let's say you need you feel like you need that next step, like the YouTuber, like I'm gonna use myself again, because why not?
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually talking with my Haley, we both have Haleys, spelled the same, so everybody, they're different Haleys.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyway, I was like, babe, I feel like I need a manager yesterday because I was I there's a there's so much that happens.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, when you make those moves, and it's probably not even a manager, but there's like a level of weight that I want lifted off of me.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_00: But how do I know when to take that step?
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: And is it a fiscal decision?
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is it hundred is it purely made off of there's enough revenue now to be able to bring on this person, to be able to help with this task, to be able to scale this business?
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I just gotta do it myself until then.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is that just the way it is?
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, and I and every situation is different.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: But from the way you phrased it, I would say bringing that manager in, not just is there enough money to support him, what impact is he gonna have on the business that can help support him and continue you to continue to grow?
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the return on investment, yes, bringing in that person.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: What's the return?
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_01: What's the ROI on that?
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and and then does it make sense?
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you know if something makes sense?
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: Got it, you know, i if if if you got a manager and he's gonna eat up 100% of what you're making right now and it's gonna it's gonna take two years to figure out uh uh or receive that return on investment, can you survive that long?
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_01: What if he doesn't pan out?
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: What if it takes longer than you thought?
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because we all believe that it's gonna scale at a certain pace, and quite often it takes a lot more and a lot longer than we thought.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_01: Can you fit that piece into this machine now at what cost?
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if it is successful, what is it gonna mean?
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: But what if it takes longer than we think to make it successful?
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: And is it still worth it?
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned cost.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_00: What has been the one of the most brutal, costly decisions of your life?
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_00: That you could go back and you could say, man, this like was a learning experience, it was costly, but also it grew me at the same time because so many times those hard times make us they we learn from them, we grow from the costly decisions.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I I I I do wish I'd I'd continued on uh uh to law school.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't at the time, I was focused, you know, you have the urgent things, and then you have the important things.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the key is to not let the urgent things drown out the important things.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the urgent things are the decision you make based on responding to that email, that call, that business decision that needs to be made.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do we bring on a manager, whatever it is, right?
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the important things are are your family, your, your, your um faith, and and and and those often get drowned out and your passion for what you're doing, right?
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: Those often get drowned out by the urgent things.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, at the time I had a lot of urgent things happening with the software company that I was focused on and didn't follow my heart at the time to pursue that law degree.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I thought about going back at times and I actually stopped going to college.
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I was mentioning uh but I promised my grandmother that I would finish.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it and it took a little longer than expected, but I did it on the side where I was continuing to grow uh the software company, and and uh I went back and finished my bachelor's degree.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and but I uh I I sometimes regret not continuing on uh and finding a way to make a time for that important thing that I was passionate about rather than focused on the urgent things of businesses and things in front of me at the moment.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think about that so much because we have a three-year-old and I see him growing so fast, and you have kids, and they're uh they're grown now, and I'm sure it just happened like that.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like everyone says, hey, yeah, they just happened so fast, he was just born, and now he's three and like three feet tall and talks like an adult, yeah, you know, and I'm like urgent versus important, that's very interesting because it's another reframe, man.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like uh good thing we should ask ourselves am I just being busy and being doing urgent things, or am I doing the important things?
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And what are the important things and what is my definition of success?
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you said earlier, in a really eloquent way, of success basically being the ability to balance the things that are really important, you know, your faith, your family with the other side, which is being a dude that's driven, that wants to build, that's a builder.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_00: You're a builder, man.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're just a driven dude that wants to build stuff and go get it.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of us are wired that way.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of um I think a lot of musicians are wired that way.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then they are going for this mountaintop, man.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's a goal, there's this mountaintop.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I had I think I have an idea of what this mountaintop is.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: For me, a lot of people I talk to say when they hit the mountaintop, it's either exciting for like a little while, and then there's the downside of the mountain, or you see another mountaintop.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious what one what was one of the first mountaintops that you had in mind that you were climbing towards, and you finally hit the summit and you went up on the peak of that mountain.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_00: What did it feel like?
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_00: What was it?
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so it was the always something, whether it was buying that first car, buying that first house, uh you know, uh, you know, becoming financially self-sufficient, getting moving out of the house, you know.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Posh, P-A-U-S-C-H, uh, posh was a Carnegie Mellon professor that uh ended up having pancreatic cancer and had 30 days left to live.
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And he ended up holding what he called was the last lecture.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_01: And in that he gave a few life principles.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And some of those principles have always stuck with me.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_01: And part of it was was the one you were just talking about.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, chase your, never stop chasing your childhood dreams.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: But remember that it's not achieving those dreams.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's the journey along the way.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: So remember what you're excited about.
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And but it's that journey along the way.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, hey, can I get from three-year-old to five-year-old or whatever the age is so that he'll be in school then?
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be so much easier.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you miss that moment of three to four-year-old or that one to two-year-old, or whatever it is, you know, chase those childhood dreams, but and and never lose sight of them.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's it's the journey along the way.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that he said, since we're we're on the topic that always stuck with me, is be the person that people want to be around.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Your energy, your humility, your presence matter so much more than you think.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Approach the world with that, with that smile, and be the person that people want to be around.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and and things will gravitate towards you and you will achieve those things.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you're born with?
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely not.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I you know, I have to push myself.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_01: People say, you know, Sound Royal Jesus is everywhere.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_01: We see you and we see your team everywhere.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_01: I have to push myself to go out to those things and to go into those networking rooms and those events.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And every single time, I'm I'm I'm happier, just, you know, I'm not happier.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just I'm drawn to huddle up in the house with my wife Haley and and just be there.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_01: I have to push myself to go do those things.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think about it all the time.
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I take on those commitments and I and I go do them, and then I'm happy I did them.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not easy.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you're an extroverted introvert.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I am too.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because I can go and I'm very energized talking to people, but there's nowhere I'd rather be than just at home.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Chilling.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we all have yeah, reading a book or listening to audiobooks of Spotify or whoever DSPs can pay a little less, whatever it is.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_00: I do the audible thing.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm paying for my books.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I can tell you're a reader and that you've been a reader.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the books that you recommend?
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_01: I I I just finished Wish You Were Here by Jody Pacolt a few days ago.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And um it's it's it's going into COVID, and it has a twist at the end that I won't give you, but really talking about your relationships and are you in the right relationship and stuff.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a fiction book and it was fun.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm uh The Bible Simplified is another one that I'm doing right now that I it's really fascinating to see, you know, how the Bible was put together and you know the Old Testament versus New Testament, all those different things.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Haley, my wife, put me onto that.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_01: And at first I was like, I don't know.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then you kind of get pulled into it and you're like, oh wow, yeah, this is cool.
• 1:17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I'm reading a book about Ulysses S.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Grant.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's massive, it's the biggest book I own.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very intimidating.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the first time that I've read something outside of like a self-help business book because I just am obsessed with those.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but it's actually teaching me more or as much as a self-help like uh business book because what I'm learning is the person, like the traits, the character.
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it'll it for me, it it goes back to the business books are are valuable and important, but it goes back to the individual.
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and I, you know, I was told without the education, without those, you know, that I would fail.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I it goes back to being in the right headspace and and being the person um that approaches the world in a way that the world wants to receive it.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So those resonate more with me.
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_00: If there was a a mentor in your life that had the biggest impact, who would that person be?
• 1:18:36
  SPEAKER_01: My father, who who instilled in me work ethic and fear of failure, my mother who taught me, and my wife Haley uh unconditional love.
• 1:18:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think those two things were most important.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then as I I started growing to business, you know, fascinated by Posh, who I mentioned, or Elon Musk, or Warren Buffett, and you know, some of the others, you know, just really taking a little bit from everybody that I can resonate with.
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_01: If I can pick something up and study it, or or read watch something, or read something, and take a small piece and how does that fit in my life and bring it forward.
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Elon says a lot of people think it would be really cool to be me, but he talks about how it actually would suck to be him.
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like they look at his success and think, oh, it would be so cool to have that much success or whatever.
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna butcher it.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know the exact quote, but you know what I'm talking about, I think.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, but essentially being me is not what you see.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's not optics, it's not what you see on social media or what you imagine it to be.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that I'm curious about for you as a CEO of a company.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's it there are good parts and there are bad parts.
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, if you look at Elon, we talk about enduring failure after failure without losing that enthusiasm to achieve that success.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he had success at PayPal, and he dumped all of that into SpaceX and Tesla.
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And SpaceX had two failed launches where they exploded on the rockets exploded, and that third one was going to be the end of SpaceX.
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_01: If that rocket didn't take off, he was done.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_01: He was broke.
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time, Tesla wasn't succeeding.
• 1:20:36
  SPEAKER_01: It was taking much longer to succeed than he thought.
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so he was about to be bankrupt.
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_01: But he never lost the enthusiasm and never listened to the negative points in his head.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and he achieved the success.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think he has new, he still hasn't stopped and he still fear, fears certain things, you know, whether they'll work or not.
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he still sleeps on the couch, he says, you know, all night in his company because he he can't go home because he needs to finish it.
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, or continue to do that thing.
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's partly what it takes to achieve success is keep at it and keep that enthusiasm and that belief.
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we're kind of driven by that little thing in our heads that's like torturing us at the same time.
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's like some of the things in life, maybe your fear of failure because you were the black sheep, positioned you to prove to the younger you that you weren't a failure.
• 1:21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, you were driven your whole life to prove to yourself that you're not a failure, and that's what's made you so successful.
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the very thing that was potentially your biggest core negative belief or your biggest pain point is the very thing that has driven you to be where you are.
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's sometimes we look at those negative core beliefs and we're like, these things suck, but at the same time, I have them and I think mine's that I'm not good enough, yeah, and that I'm a failure.
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of couple them.
• 1:22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_00: But um, and and that comes from childhood stuff, yeah.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that comes from not doing good in school, that comes from not being the popular kid or feeling like I was chubby at the swim party for the little league thing or whatever it was.
• 1:22:28
  SPEAKER_00: But that's also the same thing that drives me to be able to go after something and go all in on it and drag my family through this thing that's stressful when you go all in on something and bet on yourself.
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and and and and and you touched on something there that I have, and I think we all have, it's imposter syndrome, right?
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you're like, well, am I really what they say?
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Am I really capable of doing this that I'm already doing?
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do I fit?
• 1:23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Am I you know and I think you get into any room uh at any level and you start to, do I fit here?
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do I belong here?
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_01: And as you get into those rooms, as they those rooms grow, those people are no different than you and I and and everybody else.
• 1:23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Alex, last question.
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I've never asked this question on this podcast, but I'm gonna ask it.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was with both of my parents when they passed, and I was I remember being with my dad, um, and how at the end of life it's not about the accomplishments.
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't laying there in a hospital bed worried about actually, he was finishing writing a book, but outside of that, it was just about him wanting the people that he loved next to him.
• 1:24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's what it kind of boiled down to as life was coming to an end as in a ahead.
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_00: His whole thing was the relationship side.
• 1:24:14
  SPEAKER_00: It taught me a lot about you know just seeing life from a different perspective.
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_00: But for you, at the end of your life, what do you want to be remembered for?
• 1:24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And who do you want that to be there with you when you go into the next life?
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know I hope that people think of me as someone that was a helper, that I had a positive impact in this world and in people.
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And as you've said before, if if if I helped one person, that's good enough.
• 1:24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if I helped more, great.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I I hope I touched everybody that I touch in a positive way.
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the core principle of sound royalties.
• 1:25:00
  SPEAKER_01: We you know, providing that creative friendly financing.
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I I hope that I'm viewed as having done different things and not what I accomplished, but what those things did for others.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not what you build it's what you help others to do.
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I my family, you know, uh Haley and um my my adult children, the the those you know, your family um would be the ones that I'd want to see.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and and and whether it's slight somebody else, that's if I had that last moment, it's it's those are the people that it are most important, it then resonates out from there.
• 1:25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I hope to look out and see people that will continue on in a positive way and and and be okay.
• 1:26:02
  SPEAKER_01: I want to leave people being okay because I know I'll be okay.
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_01: I know where I'm going and I'm confident in that and excited about that.
• 1:26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:26:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love that too, man.
• 1:26:13
  SPEAKER_00: I have that same hope and that same belief.
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's been a pleasure to to talk to you, man, and to get some insight into what you do.
• 1:26:25
  SPEAKER_00: You you are a wealth of knowledge.
• 1:26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I feel like I could talk to you all day long because I would love to go back and just go into your early days and all that.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_00: But um you have been really cool and said a lot of things that have been extremely educational for me.
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And like I kind of said earlier, it's a little selfish the way I like to ask questions for me, but I think other people will get something out of it.
• 1:26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's cool to talk with someone that is on your side and has done the entrepreneurship thing because I talk to a lot of um writers or artists and creatives, and that's a great thing, and I love it.
• 1:27:07
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really great to be able to talk to someone, and you're just as much a creative, you're just creative in a different field, but to talk to someone who is, I guess, in a different vertical in the business.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I appreciate you taking the time to come on this podcast.
• 1:27:23
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to acknowledge you for the work that you're doing that is kind of leaving that ripple effect that you talked to about, which you're going to be remembered for.
• 1:27:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like the ripple effect of finding the 400-person venue artist that goes into the arena and onto the magazine cover of billboard.
• 1:27:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's a ripple effect.
• 1:27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot of things in life that we do that we have no clue that our little part in life had a ripple effect that carried on to really impact someone else or do something else.
• 1:27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so you've shared a lot of wisdom.
• 1:27:57
  SPEAKER_00: You've been very honest and vulnerable to.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Today and I appreciate that.
• 1:28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been a pleasure meeting you.
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, for people that are interested in learning more, it's soundroyalties.com.
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And what's the best way for folks to connect with you guys?
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Soundroyalties.com.
• 1:28:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're on socials.
• 1:28:19
  SPEAKER_01: So Instagram and soundroyalties.com or AlexHike and you know Facebook and Twitter and all that stuff.
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we're easily accessible.
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn, you can find us and you can reach us, and we're happy to talk.
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_00: So SoundRalties has uh Instagram, AlexHike does as well.
• 1:28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna follow you right after I'll follow you back.
• 1:28:41
  SPEAKER_00: We turn this audio off.
• 1:28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um anything you want to say as we close?
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Really great to be here.
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_01: I I appreciate the opportunity.
• 1:28:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's been a different interview than I've ever done and expected to do, and actually in a good way.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was it it it it touched on things that I've never spoken about, which is kind of interesting and fun.
• 1:29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I appreciate you having me.
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think the one of the points that we touched on is when you're making long-term, short-term immediate decisions to recognize their long-term impact.
• 1:29:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love it, man.
• 1:29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Guys, thanks for listening, watching, tuning in.
• 1:29:24
  SPEAKER_00: About half of you aren't subscribed, so do us a free gift.
• 1:29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if you subscribe, it's the best thing you can do to help the channel grow.
• 1:29:34
  SPEAKER_00: And if you enjoyed today's episode with Alex, please share it and uh tell people about it.
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Share our reels, share our clips on your story, and we'll see y'all next week.
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Peace.