Latest / The Future Herd / 41: The Logistics of Turning Food Waste Into Economic Value with Jessica Regan

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41: The Logistics of Turning Food Waste Into Economic Value with Jessica Regan · The Future Herd

0:01
Jesse Hirsh: Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsch.
0:03
Welcome to the Future Herd.
0:18
Food waste is one of those open scandals that our food system, on the one hand
0:25
kind of has as a necessity, but on the other is an obvious source of shame.
0:32
Uh, an example of an inefficiency that up to this point, markets have fundamentally,
0:38
not only not corrected, but kind of tolerated in a way that defies logic.
0:47
But as regular listeners to the show know, things are changing.
0:51
The industry as a whole has changed its attitude towards food waste.
0:56
And there's not only opportunities for innovation, there's
1:00
opportunities for new businesses.
1:03
And at the heart of that is an emerging infrastructure that kind of regards
1:09
food waste, not so much as waste, but as opportunity a, as, uh, uh, value
1:15
that other people may not perceive.
1:18
And that's where our guest today, Jessica and her organisation, food
1:23
Mesh, really is transforming not just how we think about food waste, but
1:29
the entire food system as a whole.
1:32
And it speaks to why the word AgriFood is more than just agriculture.
1:37
It's more than food.
1:39
And in this case includes food waste, which doesn't need to be wasted, which
1:45
can be processed, redirected, repurposed.
1:50
And that's where markets actually have an opportunity in making our food system
1:56
more efficient in creating opportunities for new businesses while at the same
2:01
time addressing food insecurity.
2:05
This is one of those interviews that left me thinking about all sorts of
2:09
different follow and, and perhaps we'll talk about this in the conclusion,
2:14
but it emphasises why our food system prospers, thrives, uh, uh, innovates
2:21
when we have, uh, diverse minds as Jessica who apply these problems in, in a
2:27
really innovative and revolutionary way.
2:31
Alright, enough hype, let's tune in.
2:36
Jessica, welcome to the Future Herd.
2:38
Jessica Regan: Thanks, Jesse.
2:39
It's good to be here.
2:40
Jesse Hirsh: Now I am absolutely, uh, uh, uh, overjoyed to talk about some of the
2:46
subjects we're gonna talk about today.
2:48
These are, uh, passion subjects of mine, let alone for yourself.
2:52
Uh, but I always start with the same question, uh uh,
2:55
which is kind of an abstract.
2:57
Go wherever you wish.
2:59
What does the future mean to you?
3:04
Jessica Regan: Yeah, that's a great opening question and obviously quite,
3:07
uh, quite expansive I think as it relates to the work that we do.
3:10
You know, I, I think that a future where we have a really
3:14
connected food system where food is not waste, similar to nature.
3:18
We value our food and we find systems where it goes to where it needs to go,
3:22
and it really doesn't happen in landfill.
3:24
I think to start there, that's, that's the starting point.
3:28
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and I, I always like following it up with like an
3:31
origin question or a lure question, but, but to your point, I, I have to
3:36
admit, I'm pretty new to having the awareness that food waste is what it is.
3:43
Where were you when you first had that aha moment like this?
3:48
I'd love for you to describe kinda how you went from where most people
3:54
are, which is oblivion to really understanding, you know, the extent
3:59
to which there is so much food waste.
4:03
Jessica Regan: Yeah, I, I recall the, the moment, actually
4:06
it was, uh, September, 2015.
4:08
A friend of mine, uh, who owns a compost company, sent me some photos
4:12
of, uh, a couple trailer loads.
4:14
Uh, one was of avocados and one was of onions.
4:17
And they were too ripe for retail, so they ended up on his dock.
4:20
Um, and unfortunately, they had the stickers that were
4:23
going to clog this machine.
4:24
So we ended up rejecting the avocados, which ended up
4:27
further down the, the hierarchy.
4:28
So that was one of those inconvenient truths that really stuck with me.
4:32
and I, I slowly, uh, became obsessed with the problem.
4:36
As I got more, more and more interested and informed on the problem of food waste,
4:40
it just became more and more absurd.
4:42
Um, and as someone who grew up in a large family where we used everything,
4:45
we grew up on a farm, uh, this was kind of a very weird and uncomfortable truth.
4:49
So from there, uh, that began the investigation and I realised that we
4:53
really don't have a food shortage problem.
4:54
We have a connection and distribution problem when things don't go to plan.
4:58
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and give me a sense of those kind of early motivations.
5:01
'cause a, a lot of people would've reacted differently.
5:05
You know, granted knowledge is both power, but also a kind of
5:08
responsibility that once you learn something, it, it can change you.
5:13
But a lot of other people might have put their heads up and go,
5:16
this is too big a problem for me.
5:18
Th th this is something maybe someone else should deal with.
5:21
But you kind of had the opposite reaction.
5:24
Tell me a little bit more as to why.
5:27
Jessica Regan: yeah.
5:27
No, that's a great question.
5:28
Most, I think, uh, rational are saying, people would probably just
5:30
say, oh, this is, this is crazy.
5:32
But, um, and indeed I did look for other people to maybe like to support,
5:35
to start this business, and I realised that if this is a problem that's going
5:38
to, um, have a serious, you know, go at it, I, I need to step into the ring.
5:43
So, um, it took me another six months to like figure it out and
5:46
realise that I was, I was all in.
5:48
Uh, and so we started our company in March, 2016.
5:50
So, yeah, I mean, it's been a long journey and, you know, 10 years in, 10 and a half
5:55
years in, I look back and, you know, I still feel like we're getting started.
5:58
We've made a lot of head, um, a lot of ground, um, made a lot of ground,
6:01
but, uh, there's still a lot of work to do and, you know, the, the
6:04
numbers are still quite staggering.
6:06
Uh, but even though there's, the, the space has evolved so much in that time,
6:11
uh, in, in a very positive direction.
6:13
There's still a lot of work to do for
6:14
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and you know, staying on the big picture side.
6:17
Tell me a bit about how you've seen that awareness or you've seen that
6:22
perception change over those 10 years.
6:25
Because I'm assuming 10 years ago most people were certainly,
6:29
I was totally oblivious.
6:31
And I assume as you've been educating people, as you've been kinda engaging
6:36
different institutions, different people throughout the supply chain, how have they
6:43
changed over this period, both in terms of your success, but also in terms of
6:48
the larger kind of culture around food?
6:52
I'm assuming you've seen that change a little bit as well.
6:55
Hopefully, at least around food waste.
7:00
Jessica Regan: Certainly.
7:00
Yeah, for sure.
7:01
I mean, I think about the early conversations, especially with the food
7:04
waste generators along supply chain, you know, growers pack our shippers,
7:08
manufacturers and retailers, and a lot of them, you know, had the same response
7:12
to me that they don't really have a food waste problem, that they're very
7:15
efficient and, you know, they're, they're doing everything they possibly could
7:18
to, um, uh, you know, reduce the waste.
7:22
But as we started to look into it, the decision makers, um, are not always
7:26
the ones that back in the warehouse, um, that are actually throwing
7:29
out the food looking at the food.
7:30
And the, the audits that they have are once a year, and it's
7:33
a little snapshot on time.
7:34
So it wasn't a realistic picture.
7:37
And also what we realised is that they have an acceptable
7:39
tolerance of, you know, 5% shrink.
7:42
That's just what we, and it's part of their, their margin
7:44
and, and their cost of goods.
7:45
So what we've realised is that that food is not waste.
7:48
It is actually can be rescued and it still has value.
7:51
And for you, they need to just actually understand that there is
7:53
a problem to accept it and know that there's solutions out there.
7:56
So it's been quite a journey.
7:58
There's been a lot of education, a lot of conversations, uh, but you really need
8:01
that tenacity and just not giving up.
8:03
Um, and then that snowball effect, once you get one big customer says, yes,
8:07
we're gonna give you, give it a shot, and then you continue to just earn, earn
8:11
more business, um, do a good job, do it reliably, safely, um, and then, you know,
8:16
more people wanna do the right thing.
8:18
I think a lot of businesses, it's not that they don't want to do any
8:20
a good thing, it's just when it's, when it's hard or it's cost, um, uh,
8:24
prohibitive, that's when they just default to the conventional mechanisms,
8:28
which are not really always that great.
8:30
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and kind of unpack within that un unpack what I
8:34
would describe as the culture of value.
8:37
And I say that 'cause it kind of applies to two sides.
8:40
On the one hand, you're arguing that there's value to what some
8:44
people see as waste, right?
8:46
And, and you're trying to help them understand that value.
8:49
But on the other hand, you're offering the value of what you
8:52
as an organisation are doing.
8:55
I, I would love, again, as part of how that's evolved over the years, how you've
9:00
been able to either refine the messaging or help people see what you see when
9:06
it comes to the, the, the value in, in, in adjusting and adapting, either
9:11
to reducing waste or to your point, reallocating, you know, what may be waste
9:17
to someone but is feed to someone else.
9:20
Jessica Regan: It's a great question.
9:22
The, the, the topic of value and where we put our values, uh, and at the
9:27
end of the day when something can't be sold because they think it's, um,
9:30
past the best before, so it's unsafe.
9:33
Um, one thing we've done is education around just because it's best.
9:36
Um, best before doesn't mean bad after.
9:38
Um, and so that there is still value in something, even if
9:40
it's further down the hierarchy.
9:42
So if you think about the food waste hierarchy, um, or wasted food
9:45
hierarchy, it's like you try to sell it or discount it, donate it to humans,
9:50
send it to animals, and then compost.
9:52
But some people just go right to landfill that the values are not necessarily there.
9:56
And oftentimes it's not someone's job to find alternative outlets
10:00
for the food that they can't sell.
10:01
Their job is to sell it for a premium.
10:03
And if it's off grade or cosmetically defect or all the dozens of reasons
10:07
why food is, has a lesser value than it really merits, um, you know, uh,
10:12
it, it quickly goes to the bottom.
10:14
Um, and then it, the other aspect is the value of the people who are picking it up.
10:18
There is an enormous ecosystem, often invisible, operating in
10:22
every community across the country.
10:24
Um, where there I, we like to call 'em the solution providers.
10:28
So the, there's, there's the soup kitchens, the food banks, the food rescue
10:31
agencies that are picking up that food.
10:33
oftentimes they're not always valued in the way that I think that they merit.
10:37
They, they're not, they're not seen, um, and they're not given as much as they can.
10:42
Um, and, and so that's a big part of our work that we're doing is to
10:46
provide visibility and to provide value for the work that they're doing
10:49
because they're a big part of the solution space and we, we want them
10:52
to, the people to see it as such.
10:55
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
10:55
I, I mean, let, let's go deeper onto that because again,
10:58
Jessica Regan: Okay.
10:59
Jesse Hirsh: you know, if, if part of your mo motivation came from, okay, we got
11:03
this waste problem, what do we do with it?
11:05
It, it sounds like this is a, a fantastic byproduct of that, that you
11:10
end up being connected to this kind of social infrastructure and then
11:14
empower that social infrastructure.
11:17
I, I'd love for you to elaborate that both on the empowerment side, how all
11:22
of a sudden, uh, again, what is waste to someone or imperfection to someone
11:27
is absolutely indispensable to someone else, but then what that enables, right?
11:32
What that then allows them to be doing even further, uh, uh, beyond that.
11:38
Jessica Regan: Yeah, exactly.
11:38
And I think of just, you know, stepping back a bit, I mean,
11:40
that is the nature of our work.
11:41
So with food mesh, we are a digital, um, platform to help connect, um,
11:47
you know, uh, food, food surplus with those, can use it at that time.
11:51
So effectively we just do really three things.
11:54
We're, we're a matchmaker.
11:56
We help ma manage it to make sure that the matches are made in compliance
12:00
with the law, reliable and safe.
12:02
And then we measure it.
12:03
We have a data piece too, so that we can, uh, have great traceability and
12:07
it's harmonised across all of the, the service locations that we work with.
12:11
So the value of matching and that, the, the, um, the, the delicate art
12:16
of that because typically, um, you know, not all matches are, are made.
12:21
Sometimes the, the, they're not always so easy.
12:24
So for example, a food bank might be picking up something, but they can't
12:27
take everything or they don't wanna be do, dumped on, you know, and they
12:30
don't wanna say no to their donor.
12:31
So there's a lot of pressure for food banks to take stuff
12:34
that isn't a great fit for them.
12:35
So our job is to build out a directory of different types of outlets on, you
12:39
know, what's their capacity, what do they want, um, and, and then to create
12:43
more smart and more intelligent matches.
12:46
Um, and it's not just with food banks, it also, we help, um, you know, if there's
12:50
someone who wants to buy the product up, up cyclers, which is a whole other topic
12:54
I'd love to kind of get into because this is a growing, um, industry that needs a
12:59
lot of support and provides a lot of value to the, the, the, the solution space.
13:03
Um, and so really I think that the main thing is finding who can
13:07
take that food in a way that's a harmonious match, where it's, it's
13:10
not a, it's not a compromise for them.
13:12
It actually helps give them that boost.
13:13
So that's the, that's the work that we do here at Foodish.
13:16
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and one of the things I, I said a mention
13:19
before we started recording that I wanted to tease out is this notion of
13:23
infrastructure for a circular economy.
13:26
And you alluded to it there.
13:28
And that, and again, I'd love for us to zero in on that, in that when I was
13:31
doing the research, uh, and anticipating this episode, I was fascinated by the,
13:36
the concept of a surplus marketplace.
13:39
That, to your point, there's this kind of middle ground where, you know,
13:43
there's the grade A, the what people buy, and then there's the waste.
13:48
But in between, there's all sorts of other opportunities to
13:51
get value outta these products.
13:53
You just described it or alluded to it with upcycling.
13:57
Please unpack that.
13:58
Give me a sense of how the broader food industry is able to make money, is able
14:04
to still get value out of stuff that would've otherwise gone to waste and
14:09
the markets, the opportunities that then, that it then fosters or creates.
14:16
Jessica Regan: Yeah, absolutely.
14:17
So, uh, I would say first of all, so the surplus marketplace is,
14:20
like I said, an opportunity for people who with purchasing power.
14:23
And that includes, like I said, liquidators, discount grocery.
14:27
Even food banks, a lot of them do have an ability to purchase.
14:30
Uh, they don't necessarily wanna buy it the full market value, but if they know
14:34
that they can clear that out within a couple of days, uh, that before the best
14:37
before, and they can get a 50% on that, that is absolutely a value to them.
14:41
And of course, the, the folks that have the surplus right now throwing out that
14:45
food as a cost driver, they have to pay the hauling, the tipping the equipment.
14:49
It's very expensive.
14:50
And those costs are going up year over year as more organic
14:53
bylaws are, are coming to place.
14:55
So there is a driving and increasing need for those
14:58
businesses to do the right thing.
14:59
But to find that match and do all the coordination with all these
15:02
onesie two Z one-offs is a lot of work and it's not worth their time.
15:05
So it's just easier and cheaper to throw it out.
15:07
So the work that we're trying to do is make it faster and easier and, to, to,
15:11
for those matches to occur, um, and, uh, reduce the friction in the transaction.
15:18
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and uh, again, where I see the potential here is, you
15:22
know, let's say I, I am in Vancouver or Toronto and I'm running a ghost
15:27
kitchen where I'm producing food for takeout, I'm producing food for catering.
15:33
It doesn't matter how the food looks, it matters how it tastes.
15:37
And if there are emerging markets where you're not only getting discounts,
15:41
but you're helping someone else at the same, like, that's a win-win.
15:45
I, again, I'd love for you, I've, I'm, I've made the mistake as
15:50
host of assuming our listeners know what a circular economy is.
15:54
So I kind of breezed by the subject without getting you to unpack that.
15:58
So let's take a step back.
16:00
When did you, uh, learn about the concept of the circular economy?
16:04
And why don't you unpack it a bit for people who may just be
16:07
hearing it for the first time.
16:10
Jessica Regan: Certainly.
16:11
Yeah.
16:11
So I mean, there's, there's quite a few elements to a circular economy.
16:14
Uh, if we think about circular food system, it's where nothing goes to waste.
16:18
It's the, right now we're operating a very linear take, make waste, uh,
16:22
infrastructure or, uh, um, system.
16:25
Uh, a true circular economy is whereas there, there is no waste.
16:28
So think about nature and biomimicry, like nature does not waste.
16:31
There's all, all the outputs, uh, and the byproducts are used as
16:34
an input for another organism.
16:36
So a perfect system is where whatever is not being used for the primary
16:40
purpose has other outlets for that product so that there is no lost value.
16:45
So what we're trying to do at Food Mesh is to be that connected food system.
16:48
So we know we're like a giant switchboard.
16:50
Okay, what do you have?
16:51
Who needs what?
16:52
How do we create those, those matches?
16:53
And it is very difficult and the surplus is very volatile.
16:57
It's sometimes unpredictable.
16:58
Um, you know, we get calls almost on a daily basis where we get truckloads of
17:02
product because it's a slightly off spec.
17:05
Um, and our team has a mandate to try and find that match within an hour.
17:08
That's a very difficult, um, mandate.
17:10
Um, but it is, it is what we strive for here at Food Mesh.
17:13
Um, in terms of going back to what a, uh, like a circular economy, um,
17:18
one of the big things that I think is often overlooked is the economic
17:21
model of the circular economy.
17:22
We expect that food banks to do this work for free, um, and they rely on
17:28
grants and they compete with each other.
17:30
Uh, and that's a problem that we, we, we have, I think with the system is we keep
17:36
talking about circular food economy, uh, but if we're not valuing the, the value,
17:41
um, you know, added providers, I guess, uh, we, we've got a flaw in the system.
17:46
And so the work at Food Mesh, and, you know, my background historically, this
17:51
is, um, you know, I'm an entrepreneur.
17:52
I've had many businesses, and one of the big things that's important to us
17:56
is this, uh, social impact business.
17:59
So we w we're, we wanted, you know, have a, a, a healthy business, but
18:03
also making sure that the stakeholders that we work with are also benefiting.
18:07
So we do a revenue share with those, um, food banks.
18:11
So every time that they pick up and track that they picked up on their
18:13
scheduled day, provide a data stipend.
18:16
And that has added up.
18:18
So to the tune of where some of our partners are getting, you know,
18:21
several thousand dollars a month, uh, that allows them to reduce the
18:25
reliance on the grants and to become higher people, to show up every day
18:30
and to train them and get food safe.
18:32
So we're changing the system and adding more rigour professionality, and we're
18:36
creating a true economic model that is predictable that people can plan on
18:40
rather than this random, you know, uh, can I, did I get this grant or not?
18:44
No, we didn't.
18:45
We have to close our door.
18:45
So that's the problem.
18:46
How are we supposed to build a system, uh, based on that.
18:50
Jesse Hirsh: And I assume part of that is because you're identifying value, you're
18:55
identifying cost or the inverse potential for savings where other people ignored it.
19:01
And, and, and that's where, if I heard you correctly, was the point about the
19:05
haulage and the tipping fees, that if you're diverting some of the heaviest
19:10
and wettest elements from people's waste, there's tremendous savings there for them.
19:16
And that's where they then see the kind of broader kind of ROI, for
19:22
lack of a better phrase, on the services that you're providing.
19:25
Is that correct?
19:27
Jessica Regan: yeah, yeah.
19:28
It, you know, it took me a very long time to realise that I've always tried to sell
19:32
base on the right thing to do and trying to talk to CFO or an operator, you know,
19:36
they're like, okay, that's really nice.
19:38
But no, like, at the end of the day, cost, cost is king and you really do
19:42
have to look at the economics and then the operational viability of it all.
19:45
So, yes, uh, waste is expensive or it's becoming increasing expense.
19:49
I still think that it's, it's, um, it doesn't include all
19:52
the environmental factors.
19:53
I actually think sending land food to a landfill is, doesn't, is still too low
19:58
in my opinion, but there is a cost for these businesses, and by diverting it,
20:03
there could be some cost savings for sure.
20:06
Um, and that is kind of where we are able to find our customers.
20:10
See, realising that if you can save money and do the right
20:12
thing, it becomes a no brainer.
20:15
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and tell me more about the expertise that you
20:18
guys have acquired along the way.
20:20
'cause you know, on the one hand there's the, the chutzpah or, or the foolishness
20:27
to tackle such a crazy problem and, and be the, the kind of pioneer of vanguard.
20:33
But the benefit is the knowledge that, that you develop a kind of expertise
20:38
that is novel on certain levels that allows you to create the kind of
20:42
markets and infrastructure you do.
20:45
I, I, how does that apply?
20:48
And, and I guess part of me is leading to the question of the work you do
20:51
with municipalities and, and the work you do kind of with governments, but
20:57
you also do kind of campaign work and, and, and kind of market education work.
21:02
So before we get into the application, give me a sense of the kind of
21:06
expertise, 'cause you've been alluding to it throughout our
21:09
conversation, but you also seem to be applying it in really smart ways.
21:17
Was that intentional or is that just a byproduct of trying to address
21:20
the larger fundamental problem?
21:25
Jessica Regan: Yeah, that's a great question.
21:26
So at the end of the day, you gotta start small and you gotta, you, you
21:29
gotta build on strong foundations.
21:31
So, you know, we started with the surplus marketplace.
21:33
We, we've done a lot of pivots, we've never forgotten our North Star, but
21:36
in order to get there, it's a bit of a, you know, trying to figure out
21:39
what are the best things to build on, and that, and where's the market at.
21:42
So for the last eight years, we've really focused on grocery retail
21:45
because, uh, there's surplus every single day, and that's fresh food.
21:50
So that is a really great mix for, um, you know, there's grocery stores in
21:54
all pockets, every community across the country, and there's food banks also.
21:57
So our job is to create, um, really great matches, make sure that all
22:02
of the food banks in the area have access, um, and do scheduled days,
22:05
and they're all tracking the same.
22:07
And so we became a really, we became very proficient and really understood that.
22:12
And we, we, we rolled that out and then we continue to build on that.
22:15
And as our understanding of the problem continues, we then bring on more services.
22:19
So by working in these communities, we can now realise that there is a very complex
22:24
and thriving ecosystem that's not just the charities, it's also farmers Eco,
22:27
um, upcycles, like I said, there's all these, uh, this myriad of, of people and
22:31
organisations that can do great stuff.
22:34
They just can't create those connections.
22:36
So that is the role that we've become the expert in and working with these
22:39
municipalities, because we're looking at this more of a macro level.
22:43
We're not the experts on the ground.
22:44
We partner with them and we listen to them.
22:47
We are, uh, the connector, the digital connector, I suppose.
22:51
And so our benefit at our, our vantage point is the fact that work with all of
22:55
these different types of like, uh, siloed groups, I guess, cur, uh, currently,
23:01
and realise what are the things that, um, you know, how do they operate?
23:04
What do they need?
23:05
What are their limitations?
23:06
And then we start to look at the policy level.
23:07
That is my background.
23:09
Um, you know, I've got, uh, that, um, I would say some training in that space.
23:13
Uh, and, uh, I would say that my interest is be away from the policy and
23:18
work with practical applications and, um, work with businesses to make it
23:23
so that it's an operationally viable.
23:25
It's not just in the policy or in the advocacy.
23:28
It's actually in the doing and the proving that gets people, more people involved.
23:34
Jesse Hirsh: If this was not the focused podcast that I try to, uh, uh, make it,
23:40
we would at this point digress and talk about China and trade policy and some
23:45
of the stuff that, you know, you did, uh, in undergrad and graduate school.
23:50
But we are gonna stay focused today, uh, on food mesh.
23:53
And, and I do want to talk about policy, uh, in a moment, but I, I want to talk
23:58
about municipalities there and, and I say that 'cause this is a curiosity I have.
24:03
It, it it, it was easy for me to wrap my head around kind of the grocery store
24:08
and the haulage and the tipping fees and kind of how that fits together.
24:13
The municipal level is a whole other layer of complexity.
24:17
And at the same time opportunity because especially rural municipalities, they're
24:25
ostensibly managing a lot of waste even though often they're outsourcing it.
24:30
Or here in Ontario it's become provincial now.
24:33
But, but tell me about how you approach that, because again, on the one hand
24:37
this strikes me like you're, you're trying to tackle these crazy problems,
24:42
Jessica Regan: I,
24:43
Jesse Hirsh: but on the other hand, lots of opportunity if you do so.
24:47
I'd, again, I'd love to hear about that interaction that
24:50
you've had with municipalities.
24:51
'cause they're, that's where the, a lot of the waste stuff
24:54
really literally hits the road.
24:58
Jessica Regan: Certainly, yeah.
24:58
It's a, it's, you know, uh, I think about a conversation I had about nine
25:02
years ago where I presented to a very large regional district, and I pitched
25:05
them on this regional food recovery network, and they just stared at me and
25:09
they're like, what is she talking about?
25:11
What is, what is this?
25:11
And, you know, it took about another four or five years for them to like
25:14
percolate and then get to an RFP where, uh, to build out this thing
25:19
that I was pitching many years ago.
25:21
And so it wasn't really on the radar.
25:23
It wasn't even an accepted term.
25:24
So things, things have changed, uh, to the point where there's many, um,
25:28
municipalities doing these types of RFPs for someone to create a connected, uh,
25:32
system within their own jurisdiction.
25:34
And the reason why is because, uh, there are these mandates that exist
25:38
at the, uh, municipal and the regional level on zero waste food goals.
25:42
But the issue is that they are really only in control of households.
25:46
Whereas the ICNI, the, um, the business sector, they are often with private
25:52
contracts and they don't really have, uh, either necessarily the authority or the,
25:57
the capacity to go and work with all of these different businesses, especially
26:01
when each business along the supply chain has its own unique needs, um, and
26:05
issues that, uh, need to be curated.
26:08
There's no way that, uh, city staff have that capacity and the time
26:12
to become an expert in this space.
26:14
And so what we were proposing to them and say, look like this work is hard.
26:18
It requires, uh, education, matchmaking, tracking, supporting, we can do
26:24
this for you because our unique role is that we're not just a binary.
26:28
We help find donations.
26:29
We look across the board and we have a very kind of diverse, our,
26:33
our, I guess our strength is in the diversity in which we offer.
26:36
So it we're a unique bird, a rare bird, I'd say in the block.
26:40
Um, and that is an attraction to a lot of these regional governments that
26:45
not only know, need businesses to be supported, tracking what's happening.
26:50
So I'll give an example.
26:51
We have a little surplus hotline.
26:53
So the municipalities will pay for us to have this hotline.
26:56
So any businesses can call us if they stuck, if they're stuck with surplus
27:00
and don't know what to do with it.
27:01
And we will find an appropriate match for them, um, for free.
27:04
Uh, and that way we're, you're removing the barriers for businesses to do the
27:08
right thing and the cities get the credit for helping the businesses.
27:12
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
27:13
And, and I would also point out it, it, it, while it may be obvious otherwise,
27:17
that the systems literacy and, and even if you want to call it the systems
27:22
imagination that you guys have is a huge, from my perspective, driver of both your
27:30
success, but also I, I think what allows your clients to believe, to trust, to,
27:36
to buy in, to, to the value proposition, to the concepts that you're offering.
27:42
Because again, I think a lot of people, maybe less so hopefully don't
27:47
understand the systems of waste, like they just put their garbage
27:50
out and then it disappears without realising that there are consequences.
27:55
And to your argument that there are options, that there are
27:58
better ways of doing things.
28:01
How has, and again, you, you kind of touched upon it a little, but how has
28:08
your thinking around systems evolved as you've learned more about how
28:13
companies, municipalities, regional systems, deal with food waste?
28:19
Again, it strikes me that you've had a very unique perspective to see different
28:25
touch points within the system that may be self-evident to you now, but for
28:31
me, I, I'm kind of sitting here going, wow, and I'm fascinated by it all.
28:37
What has it been like stitching that together or has it just always been
28:41
self-evident to you because maybe your, you, you system's intuition
28:46
is just so fantastic that you kind of see how this stuff's connect.
28:52
Help me out here.
28:52
I'm, I'm kind of babbling.
28:54
Jessica Regan: I, I would say naturally I'm probably, you know, a systems
28:57
thinker and I bring on parts of my team are also a systems thinker.
29:01
But in order to get there, you have to break the systems into a component parts.
29:04
So think about an org, uh, an organisation, uh, complex, uh, enterprise.
29:09
So you're gonna have a lot of different stakeholders that all have
29:12
their own fears and concerns and, and motivations for being part of that.
29:15
So to go and talk to a multinational retailer, for example, you need to
29:20
talk to the sustainability person, the operator, the like, and so that's
29:23
just one, uh, node in the network.
29:25
Then you gotta go on the recipient side and you, so it is extremely complex, but
29:30
once you understand its component parts, and then you see that there's a lot of
29:33
synergies, you can start to just match it and then, and then, like I said, get that
29:37
in place and then build onto the next one.
29:38
And then, and then you get that flywheel effect where things start flowing a
29:42
little bit easier, but it doesn't start that way, and you have to be really, it's
29:45
a sequence, um, the rollout I suppose.
29:47
So I, I don't know if there's necessarily an art or science specifically, but
29:51
it is about being very intuitive, listening to the feedback loops,
29:54
and then building on accordingly.
29:56
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and I guess I bring that up because I wanted to surface
29:59
where the kind of trust or or where the, the, the leap of faith, for lack of a
30:06
better word, that I have to imagine.
30:08
Some companies and, and some, you know, uh, uh, public institutions have to take,
30:14
'cause again, this is self-evident to you.
30:16
You kind of see the problem and you see the solution and you start
30:20
figuring out kind of how to get there.
30:23
But there must be, you must encounter some fear.
30:26
You, you must encounter some ignorance, you must encounter some
30:29
prejudice when it comes to, you know, the resistance some people have.
30:35
How do you manage that?
30:37
How do you deal that?
30:37
How do you get people to either become infected with the enthusiasm
30:43
and optimism that clearly you bring to this particular issue?
30:47
Or maybe just around the legal liability stuff, because I imagine that alone
30:52
may make some people anxious or nervous to be dealing with food waste,
30:56
uh, uh, in, in the broader context.
31:02
Jessica Regan: Yeah, I mean, there's so many layers of complexity.
31:03
I don't even know where it's like peeling the onion.
31:05
So for example, you know, when I first started this up, I actually didn't
31:07
have a background in food systems.
31:09
I have a very different background.
31:10
Uh, and you know, I was also trying to get my first customer
31:15
and raise, do a bit of a raise.
31:16
'cause we're, we are a business, I was pregnant at the time, so I had a lot of
31:20
question marks about are my, my commitment and my capa my ability to pull this off.
31:25
Uh, and so there's a lot of, uh, doubt.
31:28
There's a lot of like, people trying to second guess or ask me to, you know,
31:32
and, and you just, at the end of the day, you always have to check in yourself,
31:34
is this problem worth fighting for?
31:36
Is this worth the, the, the complexity to just continue to solve the rubus cube?
31:40
And it is, and it still is.
31:41
Um, and you surround yourself with also very smart people.
31:45
You can't be good at all things.
31:46
So the people that are, uh, are on my team, they are pieces of that
31:50
puzzle to help us unlock, uh, every complexity as we, and as we grow
31:54
and we, we evolve into new services.
31:57
Um, you know, it's just another set of problems that you have to work through.
32:00
So it's an un it's, it keeps it interesting.
32:03
Um, but the problem is, is worthy enough of the, the effort I would say.
32:08
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and to your, earlier to where you started with that.
32:11
You know, as a, a kind of digression question, I often try to argue that
32:18
the food sector, the AgriFood sector is on some levels the most accessible
32:23
that anyone could, for example, get a job in, you know, service
32:28
in retail in elements of AgriFood.
32:30
And, and do you think that part of your success lies in your fresh perspective?
32:38
Where a again, to go back to kind of where we started, some people accepted
32:43
food waste as just an element of the system versus I think you rightly
32:48
questioned that and said, now wait a minute, why have you experienced that
32:53
with people you bring into your company?
32:55
Do, do you experience that in terms of the education work that you guys do?
33:01
Jessica Regan: Yeah, I, I would say, you know, it's one of the big attractants
33:04
to work with our organisation.
33:05
Like we, we are hiring right now and some of them are getting 700 applicants for
33:09
a, you know, an entry level position.
33:11
So it's the fact that a lot of people really wanna, uh, feel connected to
33:14
the work that you do, uh, especially younger generations, right?
33:18
This is important, uh, where, where's the value that they want?
33:21
It's a value exchange.
33:22
What are the, what's the value that they're creating
33:24
and are they valued for that?
33:25
Um, and at the end of the day, food is a very visceral, feeling that
33:30
every single human, no matter what, you know, socioeconomic or political
33:34
leaning, whatever, you know, all the variations that differentiate
33:37
us, it is a very unifying topic.
33:39
Food waste is a dumb problem that, uh, hurts everybody.
33:44
So that is what the one thing that we have going for us, is that it's a very
33:48
unifying topic and it's, um, and also not to forget about the environmental
33:53
and the economic, the social, I mean, we have growing food insecurity.
33:57
Um, it is, uh, it's a huge concern and there are people who have full-time
34:02
jobs that still lack the predictable and safe access to nutritious food.
34:06
This is not acceptable in our country, and we refuse to give up.
34:09
So that is the one thing that our entire team doesn't matter if you're a
34:13
software engineer or customer support, we all have that one thing in common.
34:17
Jesse Hirsh: So I, I have two questions colliding in my head at the same time,
34:22
and rather than pick, I'm gonna mash them up with, with the knowledge that, that
34:27
there is like an onion much to unpack.
34:30
Uh, on the one hand, I'm curious about the geographic elements of what we described,
34:34
because I'm assuming the way that culture varies across the country, perhaps food
34:40
waste practises vary across the country.
34:43
And I'm curious how you may have noticed that or how, as you've
34:47
started to enter into new aspects of the country, whether your practises
34:52
or your messaging has changed.
34:54
But on the flip side, the data element of what you are, uh, gathering and what
35:00
you're operating, does that give you unique insights into food insecurity?
35:05
Like, does it all of a sudden say, Hey, you know, maybe this part
35:08
of the country or this part of a city is hurting more than others.
35:12
Again, I'm assuming you get weird sorts of early warning signals because
35:17
of your place in, in, in the food ecosystem, in the broader value chain.
35:24
Jessica Regan: Yeah, certainly.
35:24
So for sure.
35:25
I mean, no, no place is unique.
35:27
I, we do some work, uh, called Love Food Hate Waste, where we work with
35:30
a lot of municipalities on education and prevention at the household level.
35:33
So it's a part of our prevention.
35:34
We're getting to prevention space, not just diversion.
35:37
And one thing that's really clear is different citizens in different markets
35:40
are at different stages in their journey.
35:42
And so what's happening in metro Vancouver, the, the education and
35:45
all of that we do there is very different than in the prairies
35:48
where they're just starting that.
35:49
So treating, matching people where they're at on that journey, um, is really
35:55
important to bring them along, right?
35:56
It's you, not everybody's starts out as an expert.
35:59
So working with people with where they're at is part of that process, I would say.
36:03
Uh, and absolutely rural, urban, so at the urban level, there's a lot of composting.
36:08
It's often obligated.
36:09
So more businesses are up to speed on that, but they just think
36:12
that, oh, I sent it to compost.
36:14
We're good.
36:14
We're compliance, like, well, hold on a second.
36:16
You've got soup kitchens that are, you know, desperate for that food
36:20
that, that, that perfectly good produce that you're discarding.
36:23
So what's going on there?
36:24
So, uh, and at the rural level, you know, a lot of businesses are like, well,
36:28
there's no compost facility, so we're just gonna throw it out in the landfill.
36:30
And it's, and it's really cheap because we just get Bob's pickup truck to pick,
36:34
drop it off at the local landfill.
36:35
It's like, yeah, well there's farmers.
36:37
So we have, you know, a quarter million farmers in our, um, in our country.
36:41
And if you start to look at that level, like we can, if you wanna
36:44
dive in there, you know, we have, I think it's like 260,000 farmers,
36:48
uh, operators in the country.
36:50
We're losing one to 3000 a year because of some major problems.
36:54
And a lot of that, like, one of them is, uh, the, the operating costs.
36:58
So feed is one of the largest variable costs for a farmer.
37:01
It's gone up 50% since pre COVID, and it's growing five, 5% year over year.
37:07
There is a huge amount of nutritional biomass that's go 11 million times a
37:12
year that is going to our landfills that could be feeding those farmers.
37:15
And if you look at the conventional, uh, feed, um, oftentimes it lacks the
37:20
macronutrients that we could be finding in the surplus that we're throwing out.
37:24
So there is no excuse to throw food out to landfills.
37:27
There are solution providers, but we have to do the work and investigate
37:31
who in that area, pr within local, those like hyper-local areas that can
37:36
take that food at, at the right time.
37:38
Uh, and that's really where we focus.
37:41
Um, and the whole farmer's piece piece is really interesting.
37:43
And it's, it's growing a momentum.
37:45
There's a, you know, a few years ago there were some retailers that were like, there
37:49
is no way sending our surplus to farmers.
37:53
Uh, they're worried about risk and liability and all these things.
37:56
But as you start to really unpack that and you look at the liability
37:59
and you teach them, uh, then we're able to get a little bit more headway.
38:03
But it's, it's not for lack of effort.
38:05
I'll leave it at that.
38:06
It's you, you gotta, you gotta stay in it
38:08
Jesse Hirsh: Well, to that point, you, you kind of alluded to the
38:11
difference on the household level.
38:13
Is there a difference on the corporate level?
38:15
Like are there, are there, is the industry in some part of the country
38:19
more aligned with the kind of values that we're describing compared to
38:24
others who are earlier on in the journey to use your diplomatic language?
38:30
Jessica Regan: So in terms of like, are businesses more like, are, sorry.
38:34
Jesse Hirsh: Like industry awareness, for lack of a better phrase.
38:37
'cause to your point, I would assume if you went to a chef in downtown
38:40
Vancouver, he'd be like, absolutely.
38:42
Right?
38:42
Like they would instantly be into the programme versus is there
38:47
parts of the country on an industry level, on a commercial level, we
38:51
need to be doing more messaging.
38:53
We need to be doing more education and literacy work.
38:56
'cause what, if I'm hearing you correctly, it benefits their bottom line.
39:00
Like it's, it's, if anything it's, it's the lack of awareness that
39:05
prevents them from better optimising their waste management strategy
39:10
versus, I'm hypothesising that there may be people who just are not aware
39:14
and therefore do not necessarily see where they fit into this circular
39:19
food economy that we're describing.
39:22
Jessica Regan: Yeah, absolutely.
39:23
I mean, at the end of the day, uh, I would say a lot of the larger
39:27
corporations typically have a sustainability, uh, person who, uh,
39:32
has, it's their job to go and find what's the most sustainable thing.
39:35
And food waste is often one of the pillars in of, of a programme.
39:38
The, the smaller players and more regional or, um, don't typically have it.
39:42
I mean, it's hard to be a business.
39:43
The, the
39:44
Jesse Hirsh: Yeah.
39:44
Jessica Regan: margins are so tight in food businesses that we really
39:46
have to, like, we can't impose a lot of restrictions and make it really
39:49
hard for them to stay in business.
39:51
So we have to keep that in mind.
39:52
But, um, yeah, I think letting them know that doing the right thing can save money
39:57
and it can improve, like employee morale.
39:59
Like the connections that we're creating are, you know, it's, it's very hard for
40:04
a, a staff member to be throwing food out and then having to go and visit the
40:07
food bank after that absolutely exists.
40:11
Uh, and that is just painful.
40:14
So at the industry level, I would say that there's not one single
40:18
bucket or a couple buckets.
40:19
It's every business is different.
40:21
And then let's say the champion of that person, they leave.
40:23
Oftentimes they're, they're, you know, there's such this dynamic and moving
40:28
and it's just this constant effort to keep people like caring and informed
40:32
and, and then showing that, you know, that we can do this work reliably and
40:36
it becomes part of the systems work.
40:37
It's just, it's, it's just an ongoing thing, but it is getting
40:40
easier as we continue to prove it out, that it is a viable economic,
40:45
and operationally viable solution.
40:48
I'd say.
40:48
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and there's a, a brilliant insight there that
40:51
the larger enterprises often have the resources to capitalise on
40:56
these types of initiatives, right?
40:58
Because they'll have a sustainability officer, they'll
41:01
have that internal expertise.
41:03
I, I to pivot to talk about policy, you know, I is there and the obvious
41:09
is on, on the municipal level, but perhaps on provincial levels.
41:13
Is there a way to make it easier for small and medium sized enterprises within
41:18
the larger sector to engage in these types of initiatives easier and even be
41:25
incentivized and rewarded for doing so?
41:28
Right.
41:29
Because to your point, they're the ones who tend to not have the
41:32
capacity to change their operations or adjust the way they do things
41:37
without a little assistance, without a little helping hand to do so.
41:42
Jessica Regan: Yeah, absolutely.
41:43
I mean, I'm a, you know, I'm a big fan of both the carrot and the
41:46
stick for, for change management.
41:49
know, sometimes you need a bit of both, and it, I don't find it necessarily
41:52
super helpful when there's all these like, regional unique bylaws.
41:56
Like it's a great start that municipalities are like, if you're
41:58
gonna be operating our space, you gotta, you gotta do this.
42:01
But it can be confusing.
42:02
And, and I don't think that there's a lot of businesses that are totally aware that
42:05
they're not in compliance with the law.
42:07
Um, and, and so I would say having more macro policy that's consistent across the
42:14
board, um, would certainly be a good step.
42:16
There's, there's precedent for this in other countries.
42:18
Even in the states, there's statewide laws that are mandating the, uh, diversion
42:23
of the food, um, and the tracking.
42:25
And I know that we glossed back on, or forgot on the data side,
42:28
I think we should go back to that because this is a big part of this.
42:30
So one of the big problems is the lack of sufficient data
42:34
on where this food is going.
42:36
It's a lot of like snapshot research, like one and done survey after the fact.
42:40
What we've done with our work is that we collect, I think we do about 80,000
42:44
scheduled pickups a year, uh, roughly.
42:47
Um, and that's growing as we grow, uh, and we work every single pickup,
42:51
we track exactly what's picked up.
42:53
Uh, and so over time we can start to see some of the trends.
42:57
And it's all being har it's, it's, it's harmonised.
42:59
So we can start to see where the hotspots are and once we start to understand the
43:02
story and where the problems are, um, we, that can help inform policy too.
43:08
Uh, and so this, this, this data is, and it's really high fidelity data.
43:13
And what we're also doing with some of the municipalities, just to kind of
43:15
go back a couple questions, is we're also working with other intermediaries
43:19
like the discount apps and, and other pieces of the puzzle to show like a
43:24
data aggregator to show what's happening in an area, not just our data, but
43:28
like all the players in the space.
43:30
And then we can see is the policy that's been in place for 10 years, is it even
43:34
effective effecti, are people actually doing what they, so it's a really
43:37
good lens into, into the behaviour.
43:40
Um, and it can also show where the areas where they need more help.
43:43
So I, I know we glossed over that.
43:44
I wanted to mention that this is a big, um, big lever, I
43:47
would say in change management.
43:49
Um, and then going back to on the, on the carrot side of things, we definitely
43:53
need to incentivize businesses, uh, and help them out where possible.
43:56
I don't know.
43:57
Um, you know, there's different, different ideas.
43:59
Like you have this circular waste, uh, it's not very, um, but like a circular
44:05
waste tax where if you're throwing food out to landfill, there should be
44:08
a, I believe, like a, um, uh, a, uh, a fee there that then goes to offset the
44:14
people who are actually the circular solution providers and help give
44:17
them a boost to do the right thing.
44:18
So there's ways that we can design things, but it is a big undertaking.
44:22
And I think we gotta do, think about one step at a time with
44:24
our overhauling the whole system.
44:26
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and I agree on, on the tax side, because you
44:29
need to have some kind of penalty when the alternatives are abundant.
44:33
Like it's not as if they don't have other choices and, and the cost of limited
44:39
landfill space is also another factor.
44:42
But to come back to something you said about what, in my head I kind
44:46
of imagined like a dashboard or the vision that you're able to provide
44:50
policy makers, do they appreciate that?
44:53
Like, I appreciate kind of what you're describing and in my head I, I'm, I'm
44:58
kind of having my synapses fire in terms of the, the perspective that you are
45:03
able to provide these policy makers, you know, to your earlier point of it took
45:08
like five years from you presenting to the regional area for them to finally
45:13
wrap their head and start moving on it.
45:15
Do people understand the value and the potential of what you're offering to them?
45:19
Or are they still wrapping their heads around, uh, around what
45:22
this enables and makes possible?
45:27
Jessica Regan: I would say that there's definitely headway.
45:29
You know, I, I talk to a lot of different, uh, ministries at the federal, provincial.
45:33
I'm, I'm constantly speaking to different, you know, bureaucrats
45:36
and, and, and then there's also the revolving door too, right?
45:39
So it's this endless, you know, but I, I definitely think that
45:42
there is, there is value there.
45:43
We have a kind of a unique position because we're, we're the mesh.
45:46
Like, we're the connector, right?
45:47
So if we can, we can start to stitch together the different
45:50
pieces of the puzzle and show what's happening, that there's definitely
45:52
value there, but we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle yet.
45:55
Um, so it's still becoming a picture, not totally in full focus, but we're,
46:00
we're definitely getting there.
46:01
Um, so yeah, I mean, we're, but we're just one solution provider.
46:05
There's a whole bunch of them.
46:06
And, and as there should be, you don't want a monolithic solution, a
46:09
true, just like in nature, uh, a, a healthy solution is one that is, uh,
46:13
robust and resilient and diverse.
46:16
Um, and really what our role is evolving to be, it's not just a
46:18
service provider, but the stitching together of all the different service
46:21
providers to show that macro picture.
46:23
And I think that's the next evolution of this work is to, to, to get in
46:28
that direction, to help inform the policy on where does policy need to
46:32
and where is it effective and not.
46:34
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and I wanna come back to policy, but, but on
46:37
this level of data and, and the value of the data that you guys are, are
46:42
collecting and aggregating and amassing.
46:45
I mean, for myself, I, I've always been critical of marketing and marketing
46:50
claims 'cause they're one sided.
46:52
Like for me to believe something, I, I want to hear the positive and the
46:56
negative and then make up my own mind.
46:59
And yet, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there's a lot of value in knowing
47:04
what people are not buying and knowing what products are being thrown out or
47:09
what, what, like, like I'm assuming a lot of loose leaf lettuce, a lot of lettuce
47:13
or packaged lettuce has, uh, not been purchased in the wake of some of the food
47:18
safety scandals in the United States.
47:21
Am I correct in thinking that there's a commercial application to the data
47:26
that you guys are, are collecting even if it has to be connected to
47:30
other data to kind of close the loop on consumer habits and trends?
47:34
Jessica Regan: it, yeah, absolutely.
47:37
So if you think about the work that we're doing, so we're picking up,
47:40
uh, what's ended up as shrink, so we don't know that what's purchased.
47:44
So there's a gap there.
47:44
So we do now what's called a food loss and waste audit once a year with many of our
47:48
customers, which looks at the total amount of shrink and where, where it all goes.
47:53
So you can start to close the pitch and figure out, well, what's not selling and
47:56
where are the anomalies and why is this happening in some markets and not others?
47:59
So for sure we're getting into that work.
48:01
Um, and, uh, but, but that's a big undertaking.
48:06
Um, and we are doing with organisation one at a time.
48:09
To do that at macro levels is, is very tricky.
48:12
Um, but yeah, there's, I mean the, the amount of waste and,
48:17
and where it's happening, it's just, it's just so mind boggling.
48:19
Like we talked to some growers, uh, greenhouse growers through hundreds of
48:22
thousands of pounds a month surplus.
48:27
you have to ask the question, well, why, why are you growing that much?
48:29
It's like, well then they have to grow that much because they need to make sure
48:33
that there's enough for the customer.
48:34
So there's a lot of reasons why there's manufactured waste actually in our system.
48:38
So that's, that is another conversation, um, that is very problematic.
48:42
The work that we focus on is diversion.
48:44
So we're very much down the pecking order, um, of like, okay, well what do you have?
48:47
Let's make the best of a bad situation.
48:49
Let's just at least recover as much, but you wanna get academic and look
48:53
further up and why we're having system, systematic design of surplus food.
48:58
Um, I mean that's, that's a whole other ball of yarn, I guess you could say.
49:02
So.
49:03
Jesse Hirsh: Well, well, and, and you know, certainly for this conversation kind
49:07
of gets to a, a, a level of abstraction that, that we may lose the audience
49:12
because one thing we haven't talked about, but, but that you've alluded
49:16
to certainly on the software level, is the logistics of all this, right?
49:21
That at a certain point there, there is still kind of moving
49:24
food or at least getting people to know that food is available.
49:28
You've talked about the human side in terms of having a, a
49:31
phone number, people can call.
49:33
You've talked about the, the digital technology side, and we've
49:36
talked about the marketplace.
49:39
And this question I'm asking both as logistics and both as policy.
49:43
'cause I, I don't want to get away from the policy conversation,
49:47
but how do we move all this food?
49:48
How do you guys move all this food?
49:51
How do we make sure that the food that is going to be rotten tomorrow
49:55
gets where it needs to get today?
49:57
I, that's a difficult element to this, that again, we've
50:01
been kind of jumping around.
50:03
Help me understand how that, that element of this problem gets addressed.
50:10
Jessica Regan: Yeah, I mean that, that is a big question.
50:12
And again, there's no single solution.
50:14
So with grocery, for example, because it's daily, uh, and there's typically,
50:19
uh, folks that already, uh, within around us a grocery store, we do scheduled
50:23
pickups so that the, it's it's, they go to the, the food waste generator
50:28
site to pick up on a scheduled basis.
50:30
And we coordinate that and it's, it's kind of a fixed schedule type thing
50:33
with some turn, uh, some churn as people's lives change and so forth.
50:37
So, uh, for the ad hoc unplanned surplus, that's a bit trickier.
50:41
You do need to coordinate.
50:42
Sometimes there is three pl sometimes.
50:44
So we, we take those on a case by case basis, um, to coordinate that.
50:48
There's times where we're sending product across the country and we have
50:51
to work with back hauls because if you think about how it works, a lot of the
50:54
major manufacturers are in Ontario, Quebec, they haul it out west, there's
50:59
empty trucks and trains going back.
51:01
Let's coordinate that.
51:02
So I know the food bank systems and there's a lot of other
51:05
organisations working on this problem.
51:06
Um, and it's about connecting the dots because a lot of these
51:08
things are happening in silos.
51:10
So again, picking pieces of the onion or there's the onion logistics is a big on
51:15
that, but the easiest is find a hyperlocal partner that can pick up in that time.
51:20
And then, um, and that's kind of where we find the most success.
51:24
Easiest lift, I'd say.
51:26
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and that back hauling insight again just kind of blew my mind.
51:30
And, and I'm wondering if there's a policy opportunity there.
51:34
'cause on the, the one hand there's kind of the marketplace of it that,
51:37
you know, people price that capacity so that someone else could get it.
51:42
But this kind of reminds me of the surplus marketplace.
51:45
Is there a surplus in transportation or logistics that is, uh, an
51:50
element to this infrastructure that we're, we're describing today?
51:56
Jessica Regan: Yeah, definitely.
51:57
I would say instead of a policy, it's more market forces.
51:59
It's very painful to have fleets on the road with empty trucks, you know, so
52:03
I would say this is where the market economy can really come in and, uh,
52:07
but again, it's finding how do you make it as easy as possible for people
52:10
to save money, do the right thing.
52:11
Um, and yeah, that's, that's another, and there's a lot of
52:14
other smart people working on this, like in, in the fleet management.
52:17
And, and, and I think that as we get more sophisticated in our, you know,
52:21
with AI and our digital, like things are, people are realising that there's
52:24
underutilised assets that could be better, better if, if they're connected
52:28
to, you know, a new opportunity.
52:30
So that's, that's an area that, um, I think could definitely
52:35
use some further exploration.
52:36
And I think there's people who are doing that at a national level.
52:39
We really focus on, like I said, who can pick up.
52:42
That's where we focus because it's just a lot easier.
52:45
And that way we're able to service the, um, more locations, I'd say.
52:50
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and we're almost out of time and I do want to kind of ask
52:54
you the real big blue sky question, but the, the, the follow up to that one,
52:59
and this kind of goes into my trend of like what you've seen change over the
53:02
last 10 years, are food banks changing as a consequence of this practise?
53:09
And I say this because I have to assume, and maybe there are still some today,
53:14
that there are food banks who don't make use of food waste, who only go
53:19
through like donations and donated goods.
53:23
Are you seeing food banks take more advantage of this kind a
53:28
emerging circular food system?
53:30
And are they becoming more resilient as a consequence?
53:33
You mentioned some of the funding benefits.
53:36
Is this helping that part of the sector be stronger and be more
53:41
capable and have greater capacity?
53:44
Jessica Regan: I would say without a doubt, absolutely.
53:47
Uh, I have seen a huge shift in the food banking systems.
53:51
Um, a lot of them are doing perishable food recovery.
53:55
When we started this many years ago, uh, a lot of them didn't have
53:57
the infrastructure to do that.
53:59
So there's been a lot of grants, um, to get the refrigeration, to get the trucks,
54:03
um, and then also the connections with the grocery stores before a lot of them,
54:06
like there one particular food bank here that's been trying to do food recovery for
54:11
many years, they're only getting bakery.
54:13
They couldn't get, unlock more food because the corporations are like,
54:16
no, like, we're gonna get sued.
54:17
It's like, no, you won't.
54:18
There's all this legislation if you do things correctly, yada, yada, yada.
54:21
So, um, yes, they're, they are participating more.
54:25
Another really positive benefit is that there's more sharing.
54:28
Uh, we found that typically a lot of the food banks and food rescue agencies
54:32
were a bit more, uh, territorial and, and, and more restrictive.
54:36
But as we're able to unlock more food, if they can coordinate different days
54:40
and provide a full service to the donor, they're gonna lock the full meal deal.
54:43
So, um, we find a very positive shift there.
54:46
Of course, not all food banks, uh, want to do that, nor can
54:49
they, and that's fine too.
54:51
It has to be the element of choice on what's right for your organisation.
54:55
our job is to support those food banks to make sure that, you know,
54:58
they're not stuck with food that they can't use and they're not stuck with
55:01
a bill, uh, to, to throw that out.
55:04
So that's really where our work comes in, is, is, you know, do they need more
55:07
agencies to take this, you know, they go and pick up everything so that the,
55:10
the grocery store doesn't have five food banks picking up and onesie twosies.
55:14
That doesn't work for them.
55:15
So we just try to like, streamline things and make sure, uh, it's just a bit
55:19
better, uh, flow, I guess you could say.
55:21
Um, but yes, absolutely trending in the right direction, I would say.
55:26
Um, but not, not, not all choose that path.
55:29
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
55:29
Well, and, and let's project that into the future.
55:32
I mean, we don't have to get so radical as to say 0% food waste, but what would
55:39
it take to get it into the single digits?
55:41
Like what is the kinda ecosystem or the infrastructure or the policy environment
55:49
that, that you, I suspect you could imagine that, that you envision as
55:54
enabling the kinda a, a radical reduction that I, that I, I hope you, you think
56:01
is at least theoretically possible.
56:05
Jessica Regan: Oh my goodness.
56:06
Yeah, I would say, I said, if you were to break it into like the, the, the
56:10
growers for example, like obviously with droughts and floods and fires and all
56:14
the variability, but with, with what is, what is left over, working with people
56:18
who can dehydrate and value add, like having really great matches for the, uh,
56:23
the surplus and, uh, so they know where to go, that would be really great if the,
56:27
that, if those are, those are in place.
56:30
Um, and know, I, I think in terms of with the food banks, like obviously food banks
56:36
were intended to be a temporary solution.
56:38
We are always gonna have surplus food no matter what because of just the
56:41
way how perishable and how the, the systems work Right now, my hope is
56:45
that people aren't not going to the food banks because out of a need.
56:49
I, I'm seeing, I don't know if you know about like with thrifting,
56:51
like it's a very hipster thing.
56:53
People don't do it necessarily a need because it, they do
56:55
it more of on a value base.
56:56
That would be great if the same is food true for food?
56:59
People buy upcycle food because it aligns to their values, not because they
57:02
don't have enough money to buy full.
57:04
Like, I'm hoping that it's, we're always going to be recovering food, but I'm
57:07
hoping it's based out of more of a value space, not because of a need base.
57:11
Um, and that, that would be a really great feature in my view.
57:14
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
57:15
Fantastic.
57:16
And so the last question, uh, that we always end on is the shoutouts.
57:20
You know, who are the people that you look up to?
57:23
Who are the people that inspire you, that you think the rest of
57:27
us should be looking forward to?
57:28
And this is where I have to qualify and say that this isn't like thanking people
57:33
at the Academy Awards, just 1, 2, 3 names.
57:35
Not a long list of people who have allowed you to get to the
57:40
inspiring position you're now in.
57:44
Jessica Regan: Yeah, I mean, I, first, I, I immediately think of
57:47
my team because they're the ones doing a lot of the heavy lifting.
57:49
But I, I would say it's the people who have the be and the bonnet that don't
57:52
give up the ones in every organisation who are the change makers, and they're
57:57
flagging it to the, the decision makers.
57:59
Those are the change.
58:00
Those are the people that we love and we wanna support and, and give them the
58:05
information they need to change their, the, their organisation, whether on
58:08
the supply side or the recipient side.
58:10
I love those people.
58:11
The, the rebel, the change makers.
58:13
I have a huge in, um, debt and gratitude to tho those folks because they're the
58:18
ones that are making things change.
58:21
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
58:21
Fantastic.
58:22
And, and thank you Jessica.
58:24
This has been, uh, not only an inspiring conversation, but an
58:28
incredibly intelligent conversation.
58:31
'cause I went into this thinking that I understood kind of the nature of the food
58:36
waste problem, but I've left it, uh, uh, feeling as if I've just had a masterclass
58:42
that leaves me incredibly optimistic about the opportunities that can happen.
58:47
So thank you so much.
58:56
Sometimes when I finish an interview, uh, for the future herd, I want to just
59:01
get it done, put it out there, kind of get it behind me, not so much 'cause I
59:06
had any problems with it, but because the knowledge was fresh and easy to integrate.
59:12
This episode was different and it was different for a bunch of reasons, and it,
59:17
it partly explains why it's been a couple of weeks since we've put out, uh, uh, our
59:21
last episode as an aside end of summer.
59:25
And the weather was just right.
59:27
So I spent a lot of time away from the computer.
59:31
But I really felt that this episode, uh, had all sorts of layers and depths, not
59:37
just on the issue of food waste, but on the issue of food production, of the food
59:41
value chain, of the broader food industry, from the farmer all the way to the eater.
59:48
And I really wanted to unpack it.
59:50
I wanted to let it sit and kind of ferment, uh, with the other ideas
59:54
that are always banging in my head.
59:57
And, and that's where I am absolutely grateful for Jessica, her time,
1:00:02
her expertise, and the efforts that she's making in our system in Canada
1:00:08
to create new infrastructure, new cultures, new opportunities when it
1:00:13
comes to how we think about food.
1:00:16
One of the takeaways, of course, is the regulatory environment.
1:00:20
It, it is, I think, remarkable and admirable that entrepreneurs like Jessica
1:00:26
are able to navigate the municipal world, the, the regulatory world, the combination
1:00:34
of entrepreneurial and policy, and at the same time just doing good things.
1:00:41
That's not easy work, obviously.
1:00:44
It's what makes someone a leader, but it also makes me a
1:00:49
quote unquote shit disturber.
1:00:51
Think about how we could advance some of these regulatory conversations
1:00:56
to make it easier for entrepreneurs to make more stuff, whether food,
1:01:02
whether pet food, animal food, even compost using food waste.
1:01:08
I kind of feel there's a real opportunity here to use this as a regulatory lab
1:01:14
to think about ways in which we could be doing things better, to not only
1:01:19
empower food mesh to empower people like Jessica, but to help create and expand
1:01:25
the sector as a whole, whether it's, uh, food upcycling, food diversion.
1:01:31
I'm rambling as I tend to do, but I really love this episode and,
1:01:36
and really thought it touched upon some things that we will explore in
1:01:40
future episodes of the Future herd.
1:01:43
Uh, so give us a listen the future herd.ca.
1:01:46
Share this episode with friends.
1:01:49
Uh, tell us how much you hate us on social media and we'll be back with more,
1:01:54
uh, interesting analysis, understanding and exploration of our food system and
1:02:01
how we're able to nourish ourselves.
1:02:04
Alright, take care.
1:02:05
See you soon.