Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Killers Amongst Us: Teen barista Samantha Koenig kidnapped at gunpoint (Part 4)

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Killers Amongst Us: Teen barista Samantha Koenig kidnapped at gunpoint (Part 4) · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:04
Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here Welcome back to Killers amongst Us,
0:08
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. A major break
0:15
Speaker 1: occurs in the hunt for Samantha Konegg and her kidnapper.
0:20
Speaker 1: Investigators tracking Samantha's debit card across the country. The man
0:25
Speaker 1: we now know as Israel keys in custody, joining us
0:30
Speaker 1: to help crack the case. Investigative reporter Casey grow from
0:34
Speaker 1: Alaska and FBI Special Agent Bobby Chicomb, who's actually in
0:40
Speaker 1: on the FBI investigation to analyze the clues left behind.
0:44
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, and
0:48
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, renowned La psychoanalysts. The FBI now are
0:56
Speaker 1: on the mission not to save Samantha, but to recover
1:01
Speaker 1: her body. We were told by the interrogators that the
1:06
Speaker 1: victim would was dismembered in five distinct parts. Nancy Grace
1:12
Speaker 1: Killers amongst Us. He let the agents know in the
1:19
Speaker 1: interrogation that he had taken her to a lake about
1:24
Speaker 1: forty miles north of Anchorage. Remember this is still the winter,
1:28
Speaker 1: and he went out onto this frozen lake that's used
1:32
Speaker 1: ice fishermen use it all the time. So you see
1:34
Speaker 1: these these tents that are put up by these ice
1:36
Speaker 1: fishermen so they can sit around a fishing hole in
1:39
Speaker 1: the cold and fish. So he got himself one of
1:43
Speaker 1: these tents. He put it up, He drilled a hole
1:46
Speaker 1: through the ice, and he put Samantha's body through that
1:50
Speaker 1: hole to rest on the bottom of that lake. Bobby Chicone,
1:53
Speaker 1: FBI special Agent. All the time you are out there
1:58
Speaker 1: on the ice and you're digging a hole in it,
2:04
Speaker 1: you're pulling her up, Mike, she's a fish. And in
2:06
Speaker 1: parts you gotta be thinking about what Keys tells you.
2:12
Speaker 1: He does with Samantha's bodyless, And the morning after the
2:15
Speaker 1: kidnapping Israel, Keys rolled her body up and stuck it
2:19
Speaker 1: in a box in his shed, and then woke his
2:23
Speaker 1: girlfriend up and his child up, went to New Orleans,
2:27
Speaker 1: boarded a cruise ship, and then came back about two
2:31
Speaker 1: two and a half weeks later. Because of the cold temperatures,
2:36
Speaker 1: she had frozen. And then he thought her out and
2:39
Speaker 1: had to apply makeup to her in order to make
2:43
Speaker 1: her look more lifelike. And also he told the detectives
2:48
Speaker 1: he braided her hair as he had braided his daughter's hair,
2:54
Speaker 1: and taken her photograph to be used in the ransom note,
2:59
Speaker 1: not knowing that she ever wore her hair that way.
3:01
Speaker 1: So you know, going into it, Bobby Chicone that she's
3:04
Speaker 1: cut up into pieces. But we were told not to
3:09
Speaker 1: let anyone know that and keep that very well guarded
3:13
Speaker 1: secret because one of the conditions that Keys put on
3:17
Speaker 1: the interrogators was that he didn't want that particular detail
3:21
Speaker 1: released because he was fearful of what his daughter might
3:25
Speaker 1: think about the dismemberment. You're killing me. Well, I've just
3:28
Speaker 1: got to drink that in for a moment, you know,
3:31
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Every
3:35
Speaker 1: time I think I've heard it all, then I hear
3:37
Speaker 1: something like that Israel Keys. He did not go from
3:42
Speaker 1: zero to undred sixty, just like that was Samantha Koenick. Okay,
3:46
Speaker 1: this ain't his first time at the rodeo, I can
3:48
Speaker 1: guarantee you that. But he's worried. He takes the girl
3:52
Speaker 1: at gunpoint with ski mask, leaving behind his Americano coffee
3:56
Speaker 1: on the counter. He forces her into his car, He
3:59
Speaker 1: puts her the shed, He rapes her over and over
4:02
Speaker 1: in a basically dungeon atmosphere he's created in the shed,
4:07
Speaker 1: turning the music up high and nobody can hear him.
4:09
Speaker 1: He kills her, then he stitches her eyelids open, puts
4:16
Speaker 1: makeup on her to take a ransom, photo freezes her.
4:21
Speaker 1: But he doesn't want anybody to know about the dismemberment
4:24
Speaker 1: because he thinks that might make him look bad. Really, Nancy,
4:28
Speaker 1: this man is more twisted and more evil than most
4:34
Speaker 1: you're ever gonna come across. And again, his methods, his
4:40
Speaker 1: way of thinking are just as twisted. So again he knows,
4:45
Speaker 1: you know, killing somebody whatever, that dismemberment is going to
4:50
Speaker 1: make people see me differently. And he's extremely concerned about
4:54
Speaker 1: the heck, even though, as you said, not only has
4:57
Speaker 1: he done all these horrible things, he lived his life
5:02
Speaker 1: this way. Yeah, I mean, really, Cheryl, He stitches the
5:05
Speaker 1: dead girl's eyes open to her brow and puts makeup
5:10
Speaker 1: on a dead body alah Ted Bundy, But he's worried
5:13
Speaker 1: about what his daughter might think about the dismemberment aspect,
5:16
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, you know, I'm just a trial lawyer.
5:19
Speaker 1: You're the shrink helped me out here. How can he
5:22
Speaker 1: be worried about that? Detail getting out. Remember that sociopaths
5:27
Speaker 1: have a thin veneer of sociability, thin it cracks at
5:33
Speaker 1: the smallest disagreement with them. So what belongs to that? Okay,
5:38
Speaker 1: stop right there, Bethany, what do you mean by a
5:40
Speaker 1: thin veneer of sociability? I see, that's the kind of
5:44
Speaker 1: thing I'd have to dissect and write notes. I'll just
5:46
Speaker 1: figure it out. Have you ever met somebody who's incredibly
5:50
Speaker 1: syrupy suite? They're solicitous. They ask you everything about yourself,
5:54
Speaker 1: They ask I'm in the TV business? Are you kidding?
5:57
Speaker 1: Everything's fake? Okay, so let's use fake instead of okay,
6:02
Speaker 1: beth Bethany, Bethany, Bethany, Bethany. If you read and I
6:06
Speaker 1: can't remember which book it was, I think it was
6:09
Speaker 1: Death on the D List. Okay, there's a character in
6:12
Speaker 1: there which is patterned after a real person with chamillnot name.
6:16
Speaker 1: They change the name of the network from Global News
6:20
Speaker 1: global News and Entertainment. I think I called it to
6:23
Speaker 1: g n E. Okay, and Helly, the star is going
6:29
Speaker 1: and they keep going it's not Global News and Entertainment.
6:31
Speaker 1: Don't say that, and she goes, well, then, what what
6:33
Speaker 1: does g NY stand for? And they go, it stands
6:36
Speaker 1: for nothing. It's just gne that's all. Just go with it.
6:39
Speaker 1: That is actually a true life scenario that happened to me.
6:44
Speaker 1: When they change headline News to h L and I'm like,
6:47
Speaker 1: but why can't I say headline news anymore? And they
6:49
Speaker 1: went just don't say it. I'm like, well, why what
6:52
Speaker 1: does angel Let's stand for? They go and stands for nothing.
6:56
Speaker 1: I'd like to say that I made that up, but sadly,
6:59
Speaker 1: you know it stands for nothing. You know, I remember
7:02
Speaker 1: that moment, but it's yes, of course I've met somebody
7:06
Speaker 1: like that. Really, are you kidding me? Okay, So when
7:08
Speaker 1: Israel Keys is concerned about whether or not his daughter
7:13
Speaker 1: is going to know about the dismemberment and the fact
7:16
Speaker 1: that he put makeup on the victim after she was frozen,
7:20
Speaker 1: and the fact that he stitched her eyes shut, when
7:22
Speaker 1: he does not want his daughter to know those details,
7:25
Speaker 1: it is as meaningless as when the network changed its
7:29
Speaker 1: name from one to the other and there was no
7:32
Speaker 1: underlying meaning to it. It is superficial. He just wants
7:35
Speaker 1: to look good in front of his daughter. There's no
7:37
Speaker 1: deeper meanings. We can search for meanings, but he as
7:40
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCallum said, is a twisted sicko and in some
7:45
Speaker 1: I'm going to use the words, you know, wait a minute, Bethanie.
7:47
Speaker 1: I expect Cheryl and myself to talk like that twisted
7:51
Speaker 1: sicko per freak, but you're supposed to sugarcoat it with
7:55
Speaker 1: fancy psychological names like I don't know, give me one. Okay. Well,
8:00
Speaker 1: when Cheryl talks, had just sounds so important, so I
8:02
Speaker 1: had to repeat her words, but I will use clinical terms.
8:07
Speaker 1: Is real keys. I read the reports. The psychologists who
8:12
Speaker 1: evaluated him said that he had antisocial tendencies. I would
8:17
Speaker 1: say sociopaths, but that's what the psychologist said. This was
8:20
Speaker 1: five and a half hours of testing when he was incarcerated,
8:25
Speaker 1: and so I would say that someone was anti social.
8:29
Speaker 1: There's failure to pay back debts to society. There's impulsivity,
8:33
Speaker 1: there are perversions that the person has very strange sexual interests.
8:38
Speaker 1: But they are also very concerned about what people think
8:41
Speaker 1: about them. They're very grandiose, and it's they're concerned about
8:46
Speaker 1: what other people think about them in the most superficial
8:48
Speaker 1: of ways, like they just want to look good, but
8:51
Speaker 1: they don't care if there's anything to back up the perception.
8:55
Speaker 1: Like I have a husband of a patient of my
8:59
Speaker 1: practice who goes around telling everybody that he graduated from Harvard.
9:03
Speaker 1: He didn't, he graduated from a local city college. In fact,
9:06
Speaker 1: he actually didn't graduate. He just dropped out. He just
9:08
Speaker 1: wants to look good. But he doesn't care that everybody
9:11
Speaker 1: can go on the internet and figure out whether or
9:13
Speaker 1: not he really graduated from Harvard. It's superficial. It just
9:16
Speaker 1: in the moment he wants to look good. He's not
9:19
Speaker 1: caring at all if people are going to like research
9:22
Speaker 1: and see if in fact he went to Harvard. And
9:25
Speaker 1: that's kind of how Israel Keys is. He's not He
9:27
Speaker 1: doesn't think that his daughter is going to like read
9:29
Speaker 1: all the reports and know everything that he did to
9:31
Speaker 1: this victim. He just thinks that, oh, you know, dad's
9:34
Speaker 1: a good guy. You know this woman died, but you
9:36
Speaker 1: know he took care of the body. And that's how
9:39
Speaker 1: Israel Keys thinks. It's very superficial. There's no big picture thinking.
9:43
Speaker 1: It's not thought out in any systematic way. Well, I'm
9:46
Speaker 1: sure right now that Harvard University is so proud that
9:49
Speaker 1: somehow you've dragged them into the mind of a serial killer.
9:55
Speaker 1: But Bobby, you come with me, FBI special agent. As
9:59
Speaker 1: much as he wanted to keep it a secret that
10:03
Speaker 1: he had actually dismembered this young girl, it was very clear.
10:07
Speaker 1: But I'll sort to that. I'll go to you on
10:09
Speaker 1: that Casey Grow from Alaska Public Media. I mean, how
10:12
Speaker 1: could you stand on the edge of that lake and
10:15
Speaker 1: not know? But it was clear. I guess that. You know,
10:18
Speaker 1: it was not just one body that came out. It
10:22
Speaker 1: was you know, smaller pieces than just one whole body. Um.
10:28
Speaker 1: And you know I think that was reported that day
10:31
Speaker 1: or the next day, you know, like that. Um, you
10:35
Speaker 1: know that that was one of the things that they
10:36
Speaker 1: noticed when watching the the FBI dive team go into
10:41
Speaker 1: this ice and started pulling things out. Um. But there
10:45
Speaker 1: was you know, there was some covering the they you know,
10:50
Speaker 1: the FBI was trying to be as discreet as they
10:52
Speaker 1: could about it. But yeah, I think it was kind
10:55
Speaker 1: of clear. You know, Bobby chicon with me there on
11:04
Speaker 1: the scene on that ice recovering the body of Samantha Koenig,
11:09
Speaker 1: the Alaskan barista, Bobby Chicona, I want to know what
11:13
Speaker 1: you were thinking, what was going through your mind as
11:15
Speaker 1: you're standing out there on the ice. I mean, it's
11:18
Speaker 1: got to be bitter sweet because you've wanted to find Samantha,
11:24
Speaker 1: but not like this. What were you thinking out there? Well,
11:27
Speaker 1: you know, my team is trained to do this, and
11:30
Speaker 1: we do this all too often, unfortunately. So this is
11:34
Speaker 1: certainly not the first body recovery and certainly not the
11:36
Speaker 1: first child we've recovered. So it really breaks down at
11:41
Speaker 1: the two phases for us. Once we're looking for what
11:46
Speaker 1: we're looking for, the person we're looking for, it's really
11:48
Speaker 1: a target of a search for us. So we divorce
11:51
Speaker 1: ourselves from the emotions that this is a human being,
11:55
Speaker 1: because we need to maintain that emotional distance to maintain
11:59
Speaker 1: our focus on the search, because I'm about to put
12:03
Speaker 1: some of my people, my divers, into an environment that's
12:06
Speaker 1: hostile to human life. That means they could die down there,
12:10
Speaker 1: and so I need them focused on what they're doing
12:12
Speaker 1: to stay alive, to retrieve the things that we're looking for.
12:17
Speaker 1: And in this case, that was five items, five objects,
12:20
Speaker 1: five distinct parts. And so once we locate the victim,
12:25
Speaker 1: wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Bobby,
12:27
Speaker 1: what do you mean by five distinct parts? Now there's
12:31
Speaker 1: no separating emotion or reality here. I want to know
12:38
Speaker 1: what you mean when you say five distinct parts. Well,
12:41
Speaker 1: we were told by the interrogators that the victim would
12:45
Speaker 1: was dismembered in five distinct parts and deposit ins the lakes,
12:49
Speaker 1: and five distinct parts. We were told that she was
12:53
Speaker 1: the parts were weighted down with some kind of wire
12:55
Speaker 1: and some kind of weight. And so when we saw
12:58
Speaker 1: on ours, we did see five very distinct parts on
13:01
Speaker 1: a very otherwise clean and sandy bottom of that lake.
13:05
Speaker 1: And so when we turned the sown around, we saw
13:08
Speaker 1: those five pieces. And so then we sent our robot
13:12
Speaker 1: down with the video, and then when the divers went
13:15
Speaker 1: down they did the recovery and those of those five pieces.
13:18
Speaker 1: Now the difference we did here because we wanted to
13:20
Speaker 1: try to keep the dismemberment detail as secret as possible.
13:24
Speaker 1: Instead of putting using five different bags, we put one
13:28
Speaker 1: body bag and we put all five pieces in one bag,
13:32
Speaker 1: so that when we brought Samantha back to the surface,
13:35
Speaker 1: we lifted only one bag out of the water. We
13:38
Speaker 1: immediately brought that bag into a covered pop up shelter,
13:42
Speaker 1: and the medical examiners, investigators and myself opened the bag
13:46
Speaker 1: for the first time once it was in that covered shelter.
13:50
Speaker 1: So you're out there on the ice and as you know,
13:53
Speaker 1: I'm a amateur diver. You may be the greatest diver
13:57
Speaker 1: in the world, but any thank you go wrong, especially
14:01
Speaker 1: in those conditions, bobb each cone. So you're standing there
14:05
Speaker 1: sending your people down and cold water dive suits. What happens.
14:09
Speaker 1: I want to hear the mechanics of how you retrieve
14:13
Speaker 1: five bags containing the remains of Semantha cone Egg off
14:18
Speaker 1: the bottom of a freezing cold lake. How do you
14:21
Speaker 1: do it? Our divers are on a surface supplied air
14:23
Speaker 1: system with communications and full dive helmets, so they're protected
14:27
Speaker 1: from what we call an overhead environment, which means that
14:29
Speaker 1: you can't go directly to the surface. There's something blocking you,
14:32
Speaker 1: in this case ice. So they are tethered to the
14:36
Speaker 1: surface with that big umbilical that supplies them with the
14:40
Speaker 1: air to breathe and which provides us with the communication
14:44
Speaker 1: and video from their helmets. So they go down in
14:48
Speaker 1: a diver pair. I put both of the divers in
14:50
Speaker 1: the water. At the surface, we check all their systems.
14:52
Speaker 1: These are all this is all equipment that's rated to
14:54
Speaker 1: work underwater. So the first few minutes are testing your
14:57
Speaker 1: equipment at the surface. So they now descend a foot
15:00
Speaker 1: or two. They stay there to make sure that none
15:02
Speaker 1: of the equipment will freeze up, that they'll be able
15:05
Speaker 1: to basically survive while they do this work. And so
15:08
Speaker 1: once we're confident that everything's working properly, that nothing is
15:12
Speaker 1: going to freeze up on us, then I communicate with
15:16
Speaker 1: them and they descend to the bottom. The one saving
15:21
Speaker 1: grace about frozen water or what are that cold is
15:24
Speaker 1: it's very clear because a lot of the sediment has
15:27
Speaker 1: settled to the bottom. Most of the even the microscopic
15:30
Speaker 1: life is dormant in that kind of temperature, so it's
15:34
Speaker 1: very clear. So from the surface or from a few
15:36
Speaker 1: feet below the surface, as they look down, we can
15:39
Speaker 1: see on our video camera, and they obviously certainly can
15:42
Speaker 1: see the five distinct parts that lay below them about
15:46
Speaker 1: forty five ft. So we then slowly have them descend,
15:51
Speaker 1: and they descend because they're heavy. We have a tender
15:56
Speaker 1: holding each of their um biblical cords allowing them to
15:59
Speaker 1: descend to the bottom. So they slowly go to the bottom,
16:02
Speaker 1: and we know that because it's um, it's all frozen
16:06
Speaker 1: and the bottom is going to be very silty, so
16:07
Speaker 1: as soon as they impact the bottom, there will be
16:09
Speaker 1: clouds of silt that that puff up. So we try
16:11
Speaker 1: to get them as close to at least the first
16:14
Speaker 1: of the five as possible, and they do, and they descend.
16:17
Speaker 1: One of them has a tool bag attached to him
16:20
Speaker 1: with different different tools that they might need. The other
16:23
Speaker 1: has a large underwater body bag specifically designed to work underwater.
16:28
Speaker 1: And so they go about the business of retrieving the
16:33
Speaker 1: items and the pieces that we're looking for, and they
16:36
Speaker 1: I communicate with them, and I'm watching on their helmet
16:39
Speaker 1: video camera the entire time. They get to the first
16:42
Speaker 1: piece and they open the bag and they start the recovery.
16:46
Speaker 1: And they placed the first piece in the bag up
16:49
Speaker 1: until the point where we're in contact with the victim.
16:53
Speaker 1: There's a distance to Um. Did you just say they
16:57
Speaker 1: opened the bag under the water. Yes, it's folded up
17:00
Speaker 1: because dragging a bag, an open bag through the water
17:04
Speaker 1: is almost impossible. It's just got too much drag in
17:06
Speaker 1: the water and it's too an efficient. So the bag
17:08
Speaker 1: is folded up very tightly. Um. Once you get on scene,
17:11
Speaker 1: you unclip it from your belt and you unroll it
17:14
Speaker 1: and then you can start using it unzipp and things
17:16
Speaker 1: like that. UM. So up until that point, we've maintained
17:22
Speaker 1: that emotional distance that's needed to focus on staying alive
17:25
Speaker 1: in that environment and UM. But once once we're in
17:29
Speaker 1: contact with the victim, UM, the recovery takes a distinct
17:34
Speaker 1: at least for our emotional shift. And now it becomes
17:38
Speaker 1: UM much more solemn for us and much more I
17:41
Speaker 1: got a question for you, Bobby. When you as you're
17:43
Speaker 1: pulling up, they come up with the black plastic bags.
17:49
Speaker 1: You know what's in them? When you get them in
17:51
Speaker 1: your hands, what do you do with them? UM? At
17:55
Speaker 1: the surface, they come up with the with the bag,
17:57
Speaker 1: and we have you know, three or four people around
18:00
Speaker 1: the hole reaching down in and grabbing ahold of it.
18:03
Speaker 1: And slowly and now because in effect where Paul barrows
18:06
Speaker 1: at this point, UM, and we we slowly moved the
18:10
Speaker 1: bag onto a sled that's at the edge of the
18:13
Speaker 1: of the hole in the ice, and we moved that
18:15
Speaker 1: sled into a covered UM into a covered pop up
18:19
Speaker 1: shelter because we knew there were high powered cameras focused
18:22
Speaker 1: on us from the shoreline of the of the lake. UM.
18:25
Speaker 1: You mean from the media, Bobby, when did you actually
18:30
Speaker 1: look in a bag and how did you determine it
18:34
Speaker 1: was Samantha. Well, as soon as we got the UM,
18:37
Speaker 1: the sled into the pop up shelter, the medical examine
18:41
Speaker 1: investigator and I started on zipping the bag and UM,
18:44
Speaker 1: and that's when we saw the body parts in there,
18:48
Speaker 1: and then uh, Samantha. We we looked at Samantha's head,
18:52
Speaker 1: we turned the head over and then of course we
18:54
Speaker 1: could do a visual um identification of her faith. Listen,
18:58
Speaker 1: you know the things. And I didn't do them because
19:04
Speaker 1: I don't feel bad about him, and I didn't do
19:06
Speaker 1: them because I felt I had no other choice. I
19:11
Speaker 1: did them for myself. So it's just as good. It's
19:16
Speaker 1: better actually for me to keep o them to myself
19:19
Speaker 1: because they're from their mind. And so unless I'm going
19:23
Speaker 1: to get something in return aside from just an ego
19:27
Speaker 1: boost by talking about them, then I'm not going to
19:29
Speaker 1: talk about them. I don't have any interest in it.
19:32
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just don't. I didn't. The main
19:38
Speaker 1: thing is I just lost my nerve right at the
19:40
Speaker 1: end because because I mean, that wasn't I mean, that
19:56
Speaker 1: never stopped me after that you know with people would
19:58
Speaker 1: always talk to me. You are hearing the voice of
20:02
Speaker 1: Israel Keys, the man we now know murdered the Alaska barista,
20:08
Speaker 1: Samantha Konig. But that is the tip of the iceberg.
20:18
Speaker 1: To John Linley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, how
20:23
Speaker 1: many people do authorities believe Keys murdered? Well, as they
20:28
Speaker 1: were interviewing him those hours and hours of interrogation, Keys
20:34
Speaker 1: finally indicated that in addition to Samantha Konig, there were others,
20:39
Speaker 1: in fact, several others. And this is when he started
20:42
Speaker 1: sort of bribing the investigators. Well, if you'll give me
20:46
Speaker 1: a cigar, or if you'll give me a candy bar,
20:48
Speaker 1: I'll tell you this story or that story. He was
20:51
Speaker 1: very vague about a number of stories, but one that
20:56
Speaker 1: he really honed in on and gave them a good
20:58
Speaker 1: bit of information was a couple in Vermont that had
21:02
Speaker 1: been missing for months. To doctor Bethany Marshall, California psycho analyst,
21:08
Speaker 1: you know, serial killers don't just happen. You can tell
21:13
Speaker 1: very early on that there's something very very disturbing about
21:18
Speaker 1: a serial killer, even back to childhood. Sometimes. Well that's
21:21
Speaker 1: one of the criteria for evaluating whether or not someone's
21:25
Speaker 1: a serial killer or a sociopath or a psychopath. Is
21:28
Speaker 1: cruelty to animals or to children or people during childhood.
21:34
Speaker 1: And I read a little bit about Israel Key's history,
21:37
Speaker 1: and apparently he had a love for guns, and he
21:41
Speaker 1: sat in one of the interviews that he loved to
21:44
Speaker 1: hunt in the woods. Again, this is as a child,
21:47
Speaker 1: and he wanted to kill anything that quote had a
21:50
Speaker 1: heartbeat end quote. Such a very unusual way for an
21:54
Speaker 1: adult to describe their childhood. And what that tells me
21:57
Speaker 1: is that even at that young aide, the factors that
22:02
Speaker 1: create sociopathy, we're already in him. Whether it was genetic
22:06
Speaker 1: or psychological, biological, environmental, he had those factors. And I
22:12
Speaker 1: would say the distinguishing factor of the serial killer is cruelty.
22:18
Speaker 1: You know, we have a lot of sociopaths that become
22:21
Speaker 1: let's say, the president of Enron, or they rise to
22:24
Speaker 1: the top of corporations, and they put all their cruelty
22:28
Speaker 1: into having power over other people in the realm of finances,
22:33
Speaker 1: in the realm of industry. But you have what we
22:36
Speaker 1: call a disorganized sociopath, a low level sociopath like serial
22:41
Speaker 1: Keys and his power and cruelty goes into the destruction
22:45
Speaker 1: of life a little bit like a lion on the
22:48
Speaker 1: savannah may just be waiting for deer and antelope a
22:53
Speaker 1: springbalk to come by, tears its throat out and just says, yummy,
22:58
Speaker 1: I have lunch. It doesn't mean much more than that,
23:01
Speaker 1: except in the case of the serial killer, there's the
23:04
Speaker 1: enjoyment in carrying the throat out right. Cheryl McCollum, Director
23:09
Speaker 1: Coal Case Research Institute. What do all serial killers have
23:13
Speaker 1: in common? Fancy mosley, They set fires, they kill an animal,
23:20
Speaker 1: and we often see that they went the bed up
23:23
Speaker 1: until you know of late age, like into their you know,
23:26
Speaker 1: eleven twelve year old ages. So that's usually the triangle
23:30
Speaker 1: people look for. Things he has already said. They're not uncommon.
23:35
Speaker 1: We saw it with Jeffrey Dahmer where he killed you know,
23:38
Speaker 1: the dead squirrel and kept it for lunch and washed it,
23:41
Speaker 1: you know, disintegrate basically in a shoe box. They do
23:45
Speaker 1: these things. So there are flags. There are, you know,
23:49
Speaker 1: things that people know to be true, and what he's
23:52
Speaker 1: saying goes right. In Serial Killer one on one, well
23:55
Speaker 1: Key's manifested tendencies of a serial killer Early and Life Listen.
24:01
Speaker 1: He's describes his child at home as free from abuse
24:04
Speaker 1: and neglect, but he also remembers having violent urges. He
24:09
Speaker 1: talked about having these urges and these dark urges at
24:12
Speaker 1: a very young age. I ever thought everybody else was
24:15
Speaker 1: faking it and everybody was life and they just didn't
24:18
Speaker 1: act like it, or I figured that I was demon
24:24
Speaker 1: child or whatever. I don't think it's an emotional attachment
24:29
Speaker 1: that he's talking about when he says, you know, I
24:32
Speaker 1: was battling these demons. It's a conflict between his parents
24:36
Speaker 1: and all of society telling him this is how we behave.
24:40
Speaker 1: But as you mature it, you can shed that confusion.
24:43
Speaker 1: I mean, all that went away, feel bad about the daymore.
24:47
Speaker 1: That was Keys's journey, and that's the maturation of a psychopath.
24:52
Speaker 1: I've known since I was fourteen that there was things
24:55
Speaker 1: that that I thought were normal and that we're okay.
25:00
Speaker 1: Nobody else was normal. There's some friends staying with us
25:07
Speaker 1: when there was Catavars that was always getting into the trash,
25:13
Speaker 1: and they all went up into the woods and I
25:15
Speaker 1: took a piece of port and tied it to this tree,
25:20
Speaker 1: and I shot it in the stomach. It ran around
25:25
Speaker 1: and around the tree and then crashed into the tree.
25:28
Speaker 1: I mean I actually kind of laughed a little, but
25:32
Speaker 1: then I looked over and the kid who was about
25:34
Speaker 1: my age was throwing up like he was really, I
25:38
Speaker 1: don't know, traumatized. I guess you would say that was
25:43
Speaker 1: pretty much the last time anybody went in the woods
25:46
Speaker 1: with me. I learned that lesson. What he recognized from
25:54
Speaker 1: that is not that he had to change what he
25:55
Speaker 1: was doing, just that he had to hide it from
25:57
Speaker 1: other people. That's when I just started doing stuff by
26:02
Speaker 1: myself pretty much exclusively. You're hearing the serial killer Israel
26:09
Speaker 1: Keys in his own words, and you know, Cheryl McCollum,
26:13
Speaker 1: you and I have been there so many times, chekoone.
26:16
Speaker 1: You have been to where you're in the room listening
26:19
Speaker 1: to a confession, and I've watched other agents and other
26:25
Speaker 1: law enforcement kind of laugh along with the purp as
26:28
Speaker 1: he says something he thinks is funny. I could never
26:31
Speaker 1: do it. I just sit there and stare at them
26:33
Speaker 1: with dead eyes, and I hear Israel Keys just actually
26:37
Speaker 1: start laughing, snickering at his own words. Did I get
26:41
Speaker 1: that right, Cheryl? He did? He say he shot a
26:44
Speaker 1: cat and hung it and watched it twirl around till
26:47
Speaker 1: it died. Absolutely, these agents in that room did a
26:53
Speaker 1: remarkable job from beginning to end. And this was almost
26:58
Speaker 1: like this sympathy and they just were orchestrating it and
27:02
Speaker 1: they were in charge, but they let him believe that
27:05
Speaker 1: he was running the show. It was perfection as far
27:10
Speaker 1: as interview when interrogation goes, and they were able to
27:13
Speaker 1: extract so much information from him, Nancy that we can
27:17
Speaker 1: learn from so the next time we have to combat
27:20
Speaker 1: someone like this, we have more in our arsenal to do.
27:24
Speaker 1: So it was sheer, brilliant. Well, I have to agree
27:28
Speaker 1: with you on that. And this is why nobody can
27:33
Speaker 1: connect Israel Keys a serial killer to Samantha Koni. He
27:38
Speaker 1: had absolutely no connection. Bobby Chicon, FBI special Agent. When
27:43
Speaker 1: you have a homicide, you start there at that point
27:46
Speaker 1: with that body, okay, processing the crime scene, everything around it, primary, secondary,
27:53
Speaker 1: tertiary crime scenes. Then you start moving out. Then you
27:57
Speaker 1: go to the husband, the boyfriend, the coffee show up
28:01
Speaker 1: free that comes by every morning to get coffee, the
28:04
Speaker 1: friends she used to work with, the boys you had
28:06
Speaker 1: too high school, the hat, a crush, the neighbor with
28:08
Speaker 1: the tro and then on and out and out and
28:12
Speaker 1: out and out, and nothing connected her in any way.
28:17
Speaker 1: Two israel keys, which made it literally like looking for
28:22
Speaker 1: a needle in a haystack. For the cops, there's no connection.
28:26
Speaker 1: But this guy has committed murders all over the country.
28:31
Speaker 1: How has he done it? Bobby ain't gotten away with it. Well,
28:34
Speaker 1: the two things that you know he was, he was
28:36
Speaker 1: dead on in his thinking that when he told us
28:39
Speaker 1: the two things he knew he should be random too.
28:41
Speaker 1: And when I invested eat a homicide is one of
28:43
Speaker 1: the things I learned, and what we call homicide school
28:45
Speaker 1: was you draw two circles. You drew one circle around
28:48
Speaker 1: the victim, and you put one circle around the geographic
28:52
Speaker 1: location where the body was founded. With a homicide took place,
28:55
Speaker 1: and your ninety five percent of the time, your suspect
28:59
Speaker 1: is going to come out of one of those circles.
29:01
Speaker 1: So you look at who's associated with this particular victim,
29:04
Speaker 1: and like you said, ex boyfriends, people at tros, all
29:07
Speaker 1: of those people are in that circle. In the other circle,
29:10
Speaker 1: or all the people surrounding maybe that coffee shop regulars
29:13
Speaker 1: to the coffee shop, people that have been hanging around
29:16
Speaker 1: the coffee shop people. You know, the crazy guy that's
29:18
Speaker 1: always been there on a certain morning. So that's the
29:21
Speaker 1: second circle of people. Now he's new. He kept random
29:26
Speaker 1: to his victim and random to the location that that
29:29
Speaker 1: would keep him out of the suspect pool. On almost
29:32
Speaker 1: all his homicides. He was very methodical about that, and
29:36
Speaker 1: those are the two things that aids investigators take a
29:39
Speaker 1: listen to. First assistant US Attorney in Alaska, Kevin felled us, well,
29:44
Speaker 1: we finally believe that, you know, he killed at least
29:46
Speaker 1: eleven people, and frankly, I think it could be more.
29:50
Speaker 1: You know, at one point when he was in jail,
29:53
Speaker 1: we found that he had drawn in his own blood
29:56
Speaker 1: eleven skulls on a piece of paper. We also asked
29:59
Speaker 1: him about the number of people. So there's more victims
30:02
Speaker 1: out there, and it is really going to be through
30:05
Speaker 1: something somebody may have seen somewhere that at the time
30:08
Speaker 1: they didn't think was important. But if they can look
30:10
Speaker 1: at that timeline and they may have any information, please
30:14
Speaker 1: report it because that's gonna be what leads us to
30:17
Speaker 1: the next step and hopefully give closure to more families.
30:20
Speaker 1: That's from my friends at hln okay. I was trying
30:25
Speaker 1: to soak that in, you know, Cheryl. Most guys are like, um,
30:32
Speaker 1: let's see what are they doing. They're watching football or
30:35
Speaker 1: they're not. Just stereotype, don't get mad, Bobby Shicom, John Limley,
30:40
Speaker 1: Casey Grub. They're watching football, they're watching the Masters. They're
30:44
Speaker 1: obsessed with their car or their job. They're not drawing
30:49
Speaker 1: skulls and their own blood. Cheryl, help me. This is
30:57
Speaker 1: the devil on earth. I mean, that's what he is.
31:01
Speaker 1: I mean I can't imagine the things that this man
31:04
Speaker 1: has done, the ease in which he talks about him,
31:08
Speaker 1: the time that he took to prepare, the time that
31:11
Speaker 1: he took to carry all this stuff out, and here's
31:14
Speaker 1: the real kick nasing, the time that he took to
31:19
Speaker 1: make sure everything was in place before he did it.
31:23
Speaker 1: Most men are pretty you know, it's kind of seat
31:26
Speaker 1: of their pants, like, hey, that's a good enough victim.
31:30
Speaker 1: It's pretty random. I'll just grab it right now. And
31:33
Speaker 1: they get caught because there's no plannings. This man took
31:37
Speaker 1: so much time to plan and then took time in
31:41
Speaker 1: between that not only was there no connection with his victims,
31:45
Speaker 1: there was no connection with him in the cities and
31:48
Speaker 1: states he was in. This guy traveled all across the country.
31:51
Speaker 1: Now you see him, Now you don't Who is Israel? Kis?
31:57
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off goodbye from