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Expandable Space Stations, Martian Caves & Rogue Planet Revelations | Space Nuts: Astronomy... · Space News Today

• 0:00
  Hi there and happy new year. Welcome to
• 0:03
  a new edition of Space Nuts. My name is
• 0:06
  Andrew Dunley, your host. Great to have
• 0:08
  your company. Hope you had a great
• 0:09
  Christmas and New Year and looking
• 0:10
  forward to getting your brain crammed
• 0:13
  full of stuff from astronomy and space
• 0:16
  science over the next 12 months or so.
• 0:19
  Uh coming up in this episode, uh some
• 0:22
  really interesting stories. A proposal
• 0:24
  to develop an expandable space station.
• 0:27
  And this is one that you launch and then
• 0:29
  you put it out into space and then it
• 0:31
  just sort of blows up. Not, you know,
• 0:34
  not catastrophically, but uh it it
• 0:36
  expands and it'll be bigger than the
• 0:38
  International Space Station, apparently.
• 0:41
  Strange new caves on Mars will cast an
• 0:46
  eye on that. Oh yeah, that's a Think
• 0:48
  about it. That's a good joke. And
• 0:51
  observations of a rogue planet. We'll
• 0:53
  talk about all of that on this New
• 0:55
  Year's edition of Space Nuts.
• 0:57
  >> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9g
• 1:02
  Ignition sequence start.
• 1:04
  >> Space nuts.
• 1:05
  >> 5 4 3 2
• 1:07
  >> 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1
• 1:10
  >> Space Nuts.
• 1:11
  >> Astronauts report. It feels good.
• 1:14
  >> And he's back for more in 2026. His name
• 1:16
  is Professor Fred Watson, an astronomer
• 1:18
  at large. Hello, Fred.
• 1:20
  >> Happy New Year, Andrew. Happy New Year
• 1:22
  to you, too. And Mani.
• 1:24
  >> Yep. Um Man's out at the moment, but I I
• 1:26
  shall pass on your greetings. Um I can't
• 1:29
  believe that we're now more than a
• 1:31
  quarter of the way through the century.
• 1:33
  >> I know.
• 1:34
  >> Where did it go?
• 1:36
  >> It's just It's just flown. And it
• 1:40
  >> And I can't keep up.
• 1:43
  >> Well, you're obviously managing cuz
• 1:44
  you're still here.
• 1:45
  >> I'm still here. Yes.
• 1:46
  >> Yes.
• 1:48
  >> And um I must be too cuz I'm still here
• 1:50
  as well.
• 1:50
  >> Yes. Yes, we are. And uh onward and
• 1:54
  upward. Did you have a nice Christmas,
• 1:55
  New Year, all that? Getting nice
• 1:57
  presies.
• 1:58
  >> Uh it was great. Yes. Uh the it was a
• 2:02
  quiet uh festive season because as you'd
• 2:05
  know, we've been everywhere the two
• 2:07
  months before.
• 2:09
  >> Uh and so we finally found our our feet
• 2:11
  again and uh sort of more or less
• 2:13
  settled back into into home life. Uh
• 2:16
  yeah. Um I might mention the prei that I
• 2:19
  that I've been really enjoying and that
• 2:22
  is uh it's a it's almost like a dongle.
• 2:26
  Uh that plugs into my old iPod. My How
• 2:31
  old is it? It's 18 years old now. My
• 2:34
  iPod still in perfect working order.
• 2:36
  This is a good advert for Apple.
• 2:38
  >> Uh but of course it doesn't have
• 2:40
  Bluetooth and all it has is a little
• 2:42
  audio socket.
• 2:44
  >> Yeah. But the dongle, you plug in uh
• 2:47
  this small box into the audio socket,
• 2:49
  switch it on, and it's live on
• 2:52
  Bluetooth.
• 2:53
  >> And the sound quality is unbelievable
• 2:56
  compared with a straightforward wire to
• 2:58
  your headphones.
• 2:59
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that good? It's good
• 3:00
  that they can come up with technology to
• 3:04
  >> Yeah. make old old technology, old
• 3:06
  technology, an iPod work in the in the
• 3:10
  modern era. It it's it's really meant
• 3:12
  for people getting on airplanes. Yeah.
• 3:14
  So, you can you can plug it into the
• 3:16
  audio socket on your in your seat back
• 3:19
  and um listen on your Bluetooth
• 3:21
  headphones. But for me, it's it's just a
• 3:24
  joy because the old iPod has got far
• 3:26
  more music on it than any other device
• 3:29
  that I've got.
• 3:30
  >> Yeah. Yeah. I I put all my music on my
• 3:33
  um on my phone.
• 3:34
  >> Yeah. Except it falls off your phone.
• 3:37
  >> Um
• 3:38
  >> um mine certainly does. We could talk
• 3:40
  about that later.
• 3:41
  >> I haven't had that problem, but yes, we
• 3:43
  might look into that.
• 3:45
  >> Interesting.
• 3:45
  >> Falls off.
• 3:46
  >> Um, it's it's hard to know what my
• 3:48
  favorite gift is, but I think it's um
• 3:52
  or might be my rock box. You know how I
• 3:55
  steal rocks from different parts of the
• 3:56
  world.
• 3:57
  >> Yes, you do. Often illegally.
• 4:00
  >> Judy's got a display case for me.
• 4:02
  >> Oh, fabulous.
• 4:03
  >> Yeah. And she she bought me a labeler so
• 4:05
  I could put all the names down. So, it's
• 4:08
  sitting just over there. I'll next time
• 4:10
  I come and show it. Yeah.
• 4:12
  >> Yeah. I'll have a look.
• 4:13
  >> Some good gear in there.
• 4:15
  >> Yeah.
• 4:16
  >> Everything from a rock from Mount Etna
• 4:17
  to shrapnel from the Western Front.
• 4:20
  >> Yeah.
• 4:20
  >> Yes. I'll pick up anything.
• 4:22
  >> Yeah. I know. I think you've got the old
• 4:24
  meteorite in there as well.
• 4:25
  >> I might have, you know,
• 4:27
  >> from uh Yes. Antner.
• 4:31
  >> Yeah. Um
• 4:32
  >> uh Yeah, there's a there's a few. Yeah.
• 4:34
  I can't remember them all now. Um Oh,
• 4:37
  Titi. Mount Titi. Oh yeah, in um
• 4:40
  Tennere.
• 4:40
  >> Yeah, Tenneref. Yeah.
• 4:42
  >> Um shall we get stuck into business
• 4:45
  because you know we could talk about our
• 4:47
  Christmas presents all day.
• 4:48
  >> Oh god, aren't we pathetic?
• 4:50
  >> I do apologize to the audience. This is
• 4:52
  what comes of being just adequate
• 4:54
  really, isn't it?
• 4:55
  >> We're just being old and dodgy. That's
• 4:57
  what that's what it is.
• 4:59
  >> Uh let's talk about this proposal to
• 5:02
  develop an expandable space station.
• 5:04
  This this looks like something out of a
• 5:06
  science fiction movie when you look at
• 5:08
  the images. Um, obviously they're
• 5:11
  artistic impressions because they
• 5:13
  haven't actually launched this thing
• 5:14
  yet. But the idea behind it, and they're
• 5:16
  talking about putting it up sometime
• 5:17
  next year as a as a as a test case, but
• 5:21
  you you take it on a um on a rocket, let
• 5:24
  it out, and then it it just expands out
• 5:28
  into the space you want. You can do
• 5:29
  whatever you like with it.
• 5:31
  It's uh it's I think you know we're
• 5:34
  seeing the future here Andrew. Um and at
• 5:37
  the same time we're looking into the
• 5:38
  past because in the early 2000s uh
• 5:41
  company called Bigalow Aerospace uh
• 5:44
  thank you for reminding me of that name
• 5:46
  10 minutes ago because I couldn't
• 5:48
  remember it. Uh Bigalow Aerospace which
• 5:51
  actually is the same company that owned
• 5:54
  a chain of hotels and motel I think in
• 5:56
  the USA. But they pioneered the idea of
• 5:59
  uh of inflatable spacecraft. Um and I've
• 6:02
  forgotten what the name of the
• 6:03
  spacecraft were. They had two which were
• 6:05
  both launched. Uh and one uh one of them
• 6:09
  had it was full of photographs of people
• 6:12
  who'd sent their photographs to be um
• 6:15
  put inside this inflatable
• 6:18
  module. And so they were floating around
• 6:20
  in weightlessness. They had a camera
• 6:22
  looking at everybody's picture going
• 6:23
  past. Yours might have been one of them
• 6:25
  actually.
• 6:26
  >> Yeah. I I can't remember if I was that
• 6:28
  one or something else.
• 6:30
  >> Um
• 6:30
  >> it was something like Merlin or Hermes
• 6:32
  or something like I can't remember what
• 6:34
  it was.
• 6:34
  >> Right.
• 6:34
  >> Anyway, but there were two of them and
• 6:36
  they demonstrated pretty successfully
• 6:39
  that uh an inflatable spacecraft is a
• 6:42
  viable proposition. And you know, you
• 6:44
  might think, oh my god, what happens
• 6:45
  when you get a micrometeorite? Uh but it
• 6:48
  turns out that you can put you know
• 6:51
  various fabrics the sort of stuff that
• 6:53
  you put in bulletproof vests uh you can
• 6:57
  you can actually layer the fabrics that
• 6:58
  you use in the inflatable module so that
• 7:01
  it will be moderately resistant to
• 7:04
  micrometeorites.
• 7:05
  Uh and uh and that I think might have
• 7:08
  been what sparked this new idea. I'm not
• 7:12
  sure whether the new proposal owes
• 7:14
  anything to Bigalow Aerospace. It might
• 7:16
  be the same company with a different
• 7:17
  name. It's a company. Sorry, go ahead.
• 7:20
  >> No, it could be. I was just Yeah.
• 7:22
  Company called Max Space. Uh, and
• 7:26
  basically they've unveiled something uh
• 7:28
  a proposal which is called the
• 7:30
  Thunderbird Station. Love the name. Uh,
• 7:33
  which has been announced within the last
• 7:35
  week or so. And it's it's a large
• 7:37
  inflatable habitat uh that's got much
• 7:40
  more internal volume than your typical
• 7:43
  thing that you launch that is rigid. In
• 7:46
  fact, I think it's uh it's
• 7:49
  I can't remember the exact dimensions,
• 7:52
  but it's it's uh something like three
• 7:54
  times the volume of a standard uh ISS
• 7:58
  module, one of the uh the modules that
• 8:01
  goes to build up the International Space
• 8:04
  Station. So, uh, the the the main factor
• 8:06
  is it's it it's launched in a compact
• 8:09
  form, but it expands to 20 times its
• 8:12
  launch volume once it's in orbit. And
• 8:14
  you don't need to assemble it. You press
• 8:16
  a button and there's a hiss, I guess,
• 8:18
  and there it goes. You've got your
• 8:20
  inflatable module. And so, uh, there is
• 8:23
  a flight being planned uh, on a SpaceX
• 8:26
  ride share mission, as you said, next
• 8:28
  year uh, in which we might see a test
• 8:31
  version of one of these. uh their their
• 8:34
  so-called mission evolution flight to
• 8:36
  validate the on-orbit deployment uh of
• 8:39
  the module and and actually test its uh
• 8:42
  you know how resilient it is to uh
• 8:44
  micrometeoroid impact. So interesting
• 8:48
  stuff. Yeah, it is. Uh, and this is
• 8:50
  probably just the beginning of of
• 8:53
  a potential new way of of dealing with
• 8:57
  space tourism because at the moment you
• 9:00
  can go up and do a little bit of um
• 9:02
  floating around and then come back down
• 9:03
  again. You don't get a heck of a long
• 9:05
  time up there and it cost you a fortune.
• 9:08
  >> Yeah. Yeah. U but but this could take it
• 9:10
  to a whole new level. And I think that
• 9:13
  was the motivation behind Bigalow's uh
• 9:16
  ventures earlier in the dec earlier in
• 9:18
  the century. So uh yeah uh but it
• 9:22
  clearly you know it clearly has merit um
• 9:25
  if you can make it with the right degree
• 9:27
  of protection you are finding a cheap
• 9:31
  way of getting large volumes into space.
• 9:34
  Of course, the downside of that for
• 9:36
  astronomers is that these things being
• 9:38
  big are going to be much more reflective
• 9:41
  than your average spacecraft.
• 9:43
  >> Yeah, I've got a scenario in my head.
• 9:46
  Oh, look. I I think I found planet not
• 9:48
  Oh, what's that? No,
• 9:49
  >> it's Thunderbird
• 9:51
  >> got in the way.
• 9:52
  >> Yeah, that's exactly it. That you've got
• 9:55
  um you know, you've got uh satellite
• 9:58
  trails basically interrupting your
• 10:00
  observations. Yeah, we we're already
• 10:02
  seeing it with uh with Starlink in a big
• 10:04
  way with something like I think it's
• 10:06
  8,000 now that are operational. Uh and
• 10:09
  um that's going to go up to 12,000
• 10:12
  probably by the end of the decade uh and
• 10:15
  maybe more in the next decade. Um what I
• 10:18
  guess the the the Max Space project has
• 10:21
  in its favor is that these won't be
• 10:23
  launched 20 at a time like
• 10:26
  >> uh like the Starink satellites are
• 10:28
  because you won't need that many of
• 10:29
  them. So they'll be probably more like
• 10:31
  in terms of space rarity more more akin
• 10:34
  to the international space station
• 10:36
  although I'm sure the plan is to have
• 10:37
  many of them uh but perhaps not hundreds
• 10:40
  or thousands uh enough to satisfy the
• 10:43
  needs of people wanting to put
• 10:44
  experiments into microgravity.
• 10:47
  >> Yeah. And as I understand it, that
• 10:49
  original idea from Bigalow Aerospace uh
• 10:53
  was looking at commercial
• 10:56
  space stations and uh smaller stations
• 10:59
  for for other purposes. Um and I think I
• 11:03
  found some of the names. They had one
• 11:04
  named Nautilus.
• 11:06
  >> Okay.
• 11:06
  >> Um there was space complex alpha.
• 11:09
  >> Space Complex Bravo and another one
• 11:12
  called Skywalker.
• 11:14
  >> Apparently
• 11:15
  >> none of which ring any bells. No,
• 11:18
  didn't remind me of anything either. But
• 11:20
  um
• 11:21
  >> yeah,
• 11:21
  >> this is probably, you know, a a step
• 11:24
  towards
• 11:25
  um better ways of putting hardware into
• 11:28
  space.
• 11:29
  >> But I don't doubt that the day will
• 11:31
  come, Fred, where you'll be able to
• 11:34
  launch a purpose-built space station
• 11:37
  which will rotate and give you gravity
• 11:39
  and you'll be able to spend a couple of
• 11:40
  weeks up there just, you know, giving
• 11:42
  the rest of the planet the bird or
• 11:44
  whatever it is you do when you go up. I
• 11:46
  don't know what you do when you get out
• 11:47
  there. You know, you float
• 11:50
  >> and
• 11:50
  >> I'm sure you do. Yes. At the moment. Um,
• 11:52
  so I think I saw I've seen so many
• 11:55
  headlines over the holiday break, but I
• 11:57
  think I saw one. Was it a Chinese or
• 12:00
  maybe a Russian uh mission being planned
• 12:02
  which would have an artificial gravity
• 12:05
  system. So something that will rotate
• 12:07
  about an axis to give you artificial
• 12:09
  gravity, which we know will work. And as
• 12:12
  I've mentioned before, um, uh, Tom
• 12:15
  Spilker, who is married to Linda Spiler,
• 12:17
  the, uh, the great Cassini mission
• 12:20
  scientist and, uh, and Saturn, uh,
• 12:24
  scientist. She's, I think she's still
• 12:26
  working on uh, on some of the missions
• 12:28
  designed to go and look at Titan or
• 12:30
  Enceladus, uh, those moons of Saturn. uh
• 12:33
  her husband is uh somebody who
• 12:35
  specializes in designing artificial
• 12:37
  gravity systems for orbit and I think
• 12:39
  he's worked with NASA and so we might
• 12:41
  see something popping up out of their
• 12:44
  media pages sometime down the track as
• 12:45
  well.
• 12:46
  >> That would be interesting. Yeah. Uh it's
• 12:48
  only a matter of time before we we get
• 12:50
  there. And
• 12:52
  >> yeah, this this sounds amazing. And it
• 12:54
  it reminds me of um those pop-up
• 12:56
  caravans, you know, we
• 12:59
  they were invented a long time ago, but
• 13:01
  you you go and park your caravan, push a
• 13:02
  button, and the whole thing opens up
• 13:04
  >> and there you are. You suddenly got more
• 13:07
  space. And that that's more or less what
• 13:08
  this is about. And you can
• 13:11
  >> configure it to whatever needs arise. So
• 13:15
  it doesn't it's it's it's a one
• 13:17
  sizefits-all, but what you do on the
• 13:18
  inside's up to you by the sound of it.
• 13:21
  >> Yeah, that's right. Yes. So you and
• 13:23
  that's kind of what you want. It's just
• 13:24
  like a you know an office block where
• 13:26
  you um you rent out the space and your
• 13:29
  clients take whatever they need to
• 13:31
  >> do their work laboratories or
• 13:35
  >> engineering centers or offices whatever.
• 13:38
  >> Yeah. So um we will look forward to that
• 13:40
  uh test flight in early 2027 from Max
• 13:45
  Space. If you want to read all about it,
• 13:47
  you can do so on
• 13:48
  spaceconnectline.com.au.
• 13:51
  AU. Uh, this is Space Nuts with Andrew
• 13:54
  Dunley and Professor Fred Watson.
• 13:57
  Let's take a break from the show to tell
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• 15:41
  >> Okay, we checked all four systems and
• 15:43
  being with the girls
• 15:44
  >> space nets.
• 15:45
  >> Now, Fred, more and more news keeps
• 15:48
  coming out of Mars and this is quite an
• 15:52
  incredible discovery. They have found
• 15:54
  caves unlike any found on the planet
• 15:58
  before. And we've got the same kinds of
• 16:00
  caves on Earth. Uh that's correct. Uh I
• 16:05
  I thought you'd like this story cuz
• 16:07
  you're a Mars
• 16:08
  >> aicionado
• 16:09
  a Mars tragic. So the the scientific
• 16:13
  paper which is published uh this week I
• 16:16
  think in the astrophysical journal
• 16:19
  letters which is uh one of the major uh
• 16:22
  astronomy journals and space science
• 16:24
  journals in the world. Uh and the the
• 16:26
  paper which is by I think entirely
• 16:29
  Chinese authors. Um not sure maybe maybe
• 16:32
  there are other nationalities in there
• 16:34
  but principally Chinese authors. It's
• 16:37
  called water-driven accessible potential
• 16:40
  castic caves in Hebbrris valleys Mars
• 16:44
  and the subtitle is implications for
• 16:46
  subsurface habitability.
• 16:49
  Uh in other words, could living
• 16:51
  organisms be found in these in these
• 16:53
  caves or evidence of there having been
• 16:56
  living organisms? So what what these
• 16:58
  scientists have done is and you know
• 17:01
  this again is a beautiful illustration
• 17:05
  of the fact that we've got so much
• 17:06
  archival data now not just on the
• 17:09
  universe at large but on the planets as
• 17:11
  well. Uh what they've done is they've
• 17:13
  basically surveyed uh um spaceorn
• 17:18
  photographs of Mars um by
• 17:23
  using data from various spacecraft. I'm
• 17:25
  sure they've used uh uh you know the the
• 17:28
  high-rise camera uh on on um the um one
• 17:32
  of the the Mars um orbiters. Mars Global
• 17:35
  Surveyor is an older orbiter that they
• 17:37
  used uh data from. So uh these uh
• 17:42
  spacecraft have got a huge wealth of of
• 17:45
  information about the planet surface
• 17:47
  which has not all been trolled through.
• 17:49
  Yeah. You know, we're still seeing
• 17:50
  images that uh that have probably not
• 17:53
  really been examined before. Uh and what
• 17:56
  they've done uh with these data is
• 17:58
  looked at uh a region called Hebris
• 18:02
  Valley, Hebris Valley, I guess you'd
• 18:04
  translate it as, uh which is in Mars's
• 18:07
  northwest. Uh so it's it's very much in
• 18:11
  the region of Mars that is less
• 18:14
  mountainous. Uh the the southern
• 18:16
  hemisphere of Mars, as we've talked
• 18:18
  about many times before, is mountainous.
• 18:20
  It's many covered in craters. the the
• 18:23
  northern hemisphere is much flatter,
• 18:25
  much many fewer craters and at a lower
• 18:27
  level. I think it's about 3 kilometers
• 18:29
  on average lower than the lower than the
• 18:31
  um southern hemisphere. That's something
• 18:33
  called the Martian dichotomy, by the
• 18:35
  way. Uh so uh what they've done is
• 18:37
  they've looked at uh what look like pits
• 18:42
  uh in in the um in the uh in the
• 18:45
  landscape. Uh, and that's not that
• 18:50
  unusual to find things like that because
• 18:52
  we know of many features that uh sort of
• 18:56
  speak of as being I mean the the they
• 19:00
  don't speak but they um you know what
• 19:02
  you see tells you that they are probably
• 19:05
  lava tubes. They're probably uh you know
• 19:08
  places which we have here on Earth as
• 19:10
  well. I think you and I have both walked
• 19:12
  through lava tubes in Hawaii. Yeah. um
• 19:15
  which are like long caves where the lava
• 19:17
  was flowing and gradually dried out and
• 19:20
  uh you're left with a you're left with a
• 19:21
  long cave. So these are quite different.
• 19:24
  The newly discovered ones uh are they're
• 19:27
  what are called skylights. So that tells
• 19:29
  you that they are openings in the roof
• 19:32
  of caverns. But the structure of them
• 19:36
  and the sort of features around them and
• 19:38
  the landscape that they're in uh
• 19:41
  suggests that these are not lava tubes
• 19:45
  because that's sedimentary rock that
• 19:47
  they're in. It's not it's not volcanic
• 19:49
  rock. Um so there's uh some of the data
• 19:53
  that they've looked at shows in the
• 19:55
  surrounding rock uh around these caves
• 19:58
  carbonates and sulfates. Uh and so
• 20:01
  that's uh basically a a water, you know,
• 20:05
  a water-driven rock or a water formed
• 20:07
  rock. Uh and um they're they're
• 20:11
  suggesting that what you're seeing is
• 20:14
  caves that are formed by water
• 20:16
  underneath the surface flowing and
• 20:18
  dissolving the bedrock. And that's what
• 20:21
  we on Earth call topography. uh hence
• 20:24
  casting your mind forward or backwards
• 20:27
  or whatever you said at the beginning
• 20:29
  Andrew. Um so it's a you know that that
• 20:32
  gives you a landscape that's punctuated
• 20:35
  often by giant sink holes
• 20:39
  >> uh which is a bit um bit topical at the
• 20:41
  moment because there's they've just got
• 20:42
  one in Melbourne that's probably to do
• 20:44
  with tunnels being dug. Uh it's a big
• 20:47
  sinkhole in a sports oval that has not
• 20:49
  become popular. It's 8 m across. Uh I
• 20:53
  don't think that's anything to do with
• 20:54
  water-soluble rock but uh probably more
• 20:56
  like might be tunneling. Don't know.
• 20:59
  Anyway, uh cast scenery generally on
• 21:01
  Earth uh is is this lime within
• 21:04
  limestone regions and there are places
• 21:06
  like that in the United Kingdom not very
• 21:08
  far from where I grew up
• 21:09
  >> and Mexico. They have
• 21:10
  >> Mexico indeed. Uh Slovenia has the most
• 21:14
  wonderful system of cast uh caves uh
• 21:18
  which I had the pleasure to go and
• 21:20
  explore with a colleague from University
• 21:22
  of Ljubljana a few years ago.
• 21:24
  Sensational stuff. If we find the same
• 21:27
  thing on Mars um that is going to be
• 21:29
  remarkable. But the point that the
• 21:31
  authors of this paper are making uh is
• 21:34
  that um that might provide a suitable
• 21:37
  habitat, suitable environment for
• 21:40
  microorganisms because you're protected
• 21:42
  from the radiation of the um uh from the
• 21:46
  sun, the particle and ultraviolet
• 21:49
  radiation. Uh and you know it could be
• 21:52
  that living organisms have found their
• 21:55
  uh a place where they could evolve and
• 21:57
  develop. So there might be evidence of
• 21:59
  microbial life there, which suggests
• 22:01
  that this part of Mars' surface might be
• 22:04
  a good place to send a rover. And I
• 22:06
  think that's the bottom line of their
• 22:08
  article.
• 22:08
  >> Yeah. U I've thought of a name for it.
• 22:11
  If they want to send a rover down, they
• 22:12
  could call it Spelunka.
• 22:16
  >> Call it what? Spelunk, isn't it? Isn't
• 22:20
  it called spelunking when you go down
• 22:21
  caves? And my Oh, well because of
• 22:24
  speliology.
• 22:25
  >> Yeah. Yeah,
• 22:26
  >> it's spelunking. They could call it
• 22:27
  spelanka.
• 22:28
  >> Oh, I like that. Yes.
• 22:30
  >> Ah, yes. Sorry, that went over my head.
• 22:33
  >> That's okay.
• 22:35
  >> Actually, I learned that word when we
• 22:36
  visited Hawaii and they told us how
• 22:38
  people, you know, go
• 22:40
  >> traveling down lava tubes. Not the
• 22:43
  tourist ones with the electric lights in
• 22:45
  them, but actual,
• 22:47
  >> you know, uncharted ones or ones that
• 22:49
  they know about that and and then they
• 22:51
  just like it's like mountain climbing,
• 22:52
  but the opposite.
• 22:53
  >> Yes.
• 22:54
  >> Yeah. that you can get into all kinds of
• 22:56
  trouble.
• 22:56
  >> Oh, yes, you can.
• 22:57
  >> Especially with underground uh river
• 23:00
  systems and things of that sort.
• 23:01
  >> Yeah.
• 23:02
  >> It doesn't float my boat, I have to say.
• 23:04
  Uh the idea of climbing into a cave with
• 23:06
  a
• 23:07
  >> with a not a snorkel, but a you know,
• 23:11
  basically breathing apparatus. No, it's
• 23:13
  been a couple of famous cases over the
• 23:16
  years of people who didn't come back
• 23:18
  because it they got themselves into
• 23:20
  difficult situations and uh and it is
• 23:23
  really dangerous thing to do. But um
• 23:25
  what what's another interesting thing
• 23:27
  about these caves is they're they're
• 23:30
  enormous.
• 23:31
  >> Yes, that's right. Uh they're not
• 23:34
  they're not small. Um and uh you know
• 23:36
  they they've it it's I guess again it to
• 23:41
  use a metaphor it speaks loudly of the
• 23:43
  of the volumes of water that must have
• 23:46
  have basically flowed down them uh in
• 23:50
  the in the millennia ago when they were
• 23:53
  being formed because I guess we're you
• 23:55
  know we're we're seeing evidence of of
• 23:59
  water-driven erosion and we know that
• 24:01
  perhaps three and a half to four billion
• 24:03
  years ago So Mars was wet but isn't now.
• 24:07
  So we're looking at very ancient water
• 24:08
  flows. But yes, it it says that there
• 24:11
  must have been a lot of water there. It
• 24:12
  is it's a remarkable piece of work. Um I
• 24:15
  haven't looked at the uh the original
• 24:18
  paper in great detail, but will do
• 24:21
  because uh it's such an interesting
• 24:23
  topic and they've done a lot of very
• 24:25
  careful work on this.
• 24:26
  >> Yeah. Um some of some of these uh cave
• 24:29
  openings are over 700 m wide. Yeah.
• 24:32
  >> Which is extraordinary. 350 m seems to
• 24:34
  be a common number, but some of them are
• 24:37
  um almost double that or over double
• 24:39
  that.
• 24:40
  >> It Yeah. So, it sort of makes you wonder
• 24:42
  why we haven't really seen these things
• 24:44
  before. I I suspect what uh has allowed
• 24:48
  um these uh authors to make the
• 24:50
  deductions that they have is because
• 24:52
  they've used many spacecraft um
• 24:55
  high-rise as I mentioned the high
• 24:57
  resolution camera on Mars Reconnaissance
• 24:59
  Orbiter and the Mars global surveyor.
• 25:02
  These these spacecraft have basically
• 25:04
  given given you different angles on the
• 25:07
  same features on the surface and um seen
• 25:11
  the surface under different lighting
• 25:13
  conditions. So when you when you take
• 25:15
  all that information uh together, that's
• 25:18
  when you can start looking effectively
• 25:20
  at three-dimensional views of what these
• 25:22
  what these dark spludges on the surface
• 25:24
  mean. They're dark because you're
• 25:26
  looking down into a into a cave. And
• 25:28
  yes, you're absolutely right with uh
• 25:30
  things that are, you know, hundreds of
• 25:32
  meters across. They're not small.
• 25:34
  >> Here's a question. How would they go as
• 25:39
  potential future human habitat?
• 25:42
  >> Uh I think that would be very much on
• 25:44
  the agenda, too. um just because you uh
• 25:50
  you really want to find if you can uh a
• 25:55
  region of Mars's surface that protects
• 25:57
  you from the environment which is very
• 26:01
  very inhospitable not just because the
• 26:03
  atmosphere is only 6% of the earth's
• 26:06
  atmospheric pressure but simply simply
• 26:09
  because of the radiation uh the fact
• 26:11
  that there's no magnetic field on Mars
• 26:13
  to protect you from that uh and that
• 26:15
  sort of that sort of thing, the the UV
• 26:17
  radiation from the sun. So, people have
• 26:19
  certainly suggested the lava tubes as
• 26:21
  future human habitats, but these might
• 26:23
  be even more appropriate um being, as we
• 26:27
  say, they're very large and uh and
• 26:30
  probably um you know, environments that
• 26:33
  would lend themselves to to perhaps
• 26:35
  building a structure inside
• 26:37
  >> uh that would allow you to work in
• 26:40
  normal atmospheric pressure. I suppose
• 26:42
  the question becomes one of whether or
• 26:45
  not that's a part of Mars where we, you
• 26:49
  know, there's an advantage being there.
• 26:51
  I mean, you it might be a great cave to
• 26:54
  put a dwelling in, but you
• 26:56
  >> if it's nowhere near anywhere you need
• 26:58
  to be,
• 26:59
  >> but but if it's also a place where there
• 27:02
  may have been microbial life there, uh
• 27:05
  it is going to be a place of interest.
• 27:07
  And of course, you'd want to make sure
• 27:08
  that you're not building your
• 27:10
  >> your in underground dwelling on some
• 27:13
  poor animals habitat even if the animal
• 27:17
  itself is long gone. And again that
• 27:19
  comes back to some of the eth ethical
• 27:21
  considerations in regard to the
• 27:23
  exploration of Mars.
• 27:25
  >> Yes. Yes. Well, we maybe we should talk
• 27:27
  to Elon Musk about um habitats on Mars
• 27:30
  and
• 27:32
  human ethics.
• 27:34
  >> I'm not I'm not going to buy into that
• 27:35
  one.
• 27:37
  >> I'm going to get you one day.
• 27:39
  >> Yeah.
• 27:39
  >> Oh, yes. It's a great story. If you want
• 27:41
  to read about it, you can do that at the
• 27:43
  daily galaxy.com website or you can read
• 27:46
  the paper in the astrophysical journal
• 27:48
  letters. This is Spacenuts. Andrew
• 27:50
  Dunley here with Professor Fred Watson.
• 27:54
  Let's take a break from the show to tell
• 27:55
  you about our sponsor NordVPN.
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  nuts at the checkout.
• 29:18
  >> G and I feel
• 29:20
  >> space nuts.
• 29:21
  >> Our final story, Fred, takes us to
• 29:23
  another planet, um, which is a little
• 29:27
  unusual. We've spoken about rogue
• 29:29
  planets before, but now we've got, uh, I
• 29:33
  believe observations of a rogue planet.
• 29:35
  Now, these things are hard to spot
• 29:36
  because they don't orbit a star. They're
• 29:38
  just floating out there like a space
• 29:39
  station
• 29:41
  um and turning up who knows where, but
• 29:44
  um apparently they've they've observed
• 29:46
  one. Uh yes, in a in a new way. uh and
• 29:50
  that's cuz I think that these things are
• 29:53
  relatively common place in terms of
• 29:55
  being found um on particularly on
• 29:59
  surveys looking at what's called
• 30:02
  gravitational microlensing
• 30:05
  uh because that's really the only way to
• 30:06
  find them because exactly as you've said
• 30:09
  they are not illuminated by a parent
• 30:11
  star. I always think rogue planet is a
• 30:14
  slightly um you know it's it's an
• 30:17
  uncomplentary name. I think orphan
• 30:19
  planet's a nicer one because we think
• 30:21
  some of these are orphans in the sense
• 30:22
  that they've been booted out of their um
• 30:25
  parent solar system by gravitational
• 30:27
  interactions. But as you say, they are
• 30:30
  dark. They're not illuminated by their
• 30:32
  parent star. They do um have very low
• 30:35
  levels of infrared radiation because
• 30:37
  there are as with as with the earth and
• 30:40
  and the planets of the solar system,
• 30:42
  there are sort of low-level nuclear
• 30:44
  processes going on inside. That means
• 30:46
  the planet is radiating its own heat to
• 30:48
  some extent. Uh I think if I remember
• 30:51
  rightly Jupiter radiates 1.8 times as
• 30:53
  much uh energy as it receives from the
• 30:56
  sun. I think that's the figure uh
• 30:58
  because of the nuclear processes in its
• 30:59
  interior. So that would be true of a
• 31:01
  rogue planet as well. So if you got
• 31:03
  really sensitive infrared equipment uh
• 31:05
  in fact things like the James Web Space
• 31:08
  Telescope would do the trick uh then you
• 31:11
  can find it. But the uh the sort of
• 31:13
  standard method of finding these things
• 31:16
  is by as I said gravitational microl
• 31:18
  lensing. What does that mean? It means
• 31:21
  that you take repeated images of a patch
• 31:25
  of sky that has stars in it and most of
• 31:28
  the sky has stars in it when you look
• 31:30
  through big telescopes. So you take
• 31:32
  repeated images of the same patch of sky
• 31:35
  and look for changes in the brightness
• 31:38
  of the stars. Now, sometimes those
• 31:40
  changes are because the stars themselves
• 31:42
  are variable. Uh they're vary in their
• 31:45
  light output. Sometimes there are
• 31:46
  changes because it's not a star. It's
• 31:48
  actually an asteroid. So, it means it's
• 31:50
  moving in your field of view. But one of
• 31:52
  the potential changes and you can spot
• 31:55
  it because the what we call the light
• 31:57
  curve, the way the light behaves with
• 31:59
  time has a very characteristic shape.
• 32:02
  That is when you get uh something dark
• 32:06
  uh or less bright than the star behind
• 32:09
  it. It passes in front of a star and
• 32:13
  because of Einstein's general theory of
• 32:15
  relativity, we know the gravity of that
• 32:17
  dark object will warp the space around
• 32:20
  it and behave like a lens. And the
• 32:22
  effect of this lens passing in front of
• 32:24
  the star is to give you this light curve
• 32:26
  which has got a really strong peak uh
• 32:29
  and and side lobes. It's the shape is
• 32:31
  very characteristic. So various
• 32:34
  planetary systems have been discovered
• 32:36
  that way. You see a star going past and
• 32:37
  that has a different shape and then a
• 32:39
  planet goes past and that's got this
• 32:41
  little pointy light curve shape. Uh and
• 32:44
  you know you've found a a planet around
• 32:46
  a star. Um but if you just get the
• 32:48
  pointy light curve the small one then
• 32:51
  that's a planet on its own basically. Uh
• 32:54
  which is when we call it a rogue planet.
• 32:57
  So this uh observation is of uh an a
• 33:01
  rogue planet and it's been made in
• 33:03
  exactly that way uh by gravitational
• 33:06
  microl lensing but uh it's been observed
• 33:10
  from both earth and space. That's the
• 33:13
  thing. These are simultaneous earth and
• 33:17
  space um measurements and uh that allows
• 33:22
  you to uh check the timing very
• 33:26
  accurately of the gravitational
• 33:29
  microlensing. Uh the space telescope was
• 33:31
  the GIA space telescope which has been
• 33:33
  surveying stars for the last 15 years or
• 33:36
  so I think. Um, and because you've got
• 33:38
  two observations from places that are
• 33:42
  separated uh in space, that allows you
• 33:46
  to say a little bit more about the
• 33:48
  object. Because the trick with these
• 33:50
  things is you only see this thing once.
• 33:52
  You see a gravitational microlensing
• 33:54
  peak and then it's gone. Uh, and all
• 33:57
  your information is in the shape of that
• 33:59
  light curve. But if you got two light
• 34:01
  curves from two different vantage
• 34:02
  points, you can get a little bit more.
• 34:04
  And so uh what uh the scientists who did
• 34:07
  this work have said is that that enabled
• 34:10
  them for the first time to work out the
• 34:13
  mass of the microl lensing planet which
• 34:15
  is about 22 times the mass of Jupiter
• 34:18
  and to say where it is. Uh and it's
• 34:21
  something like 10,000 light years uh
• 34:24
  from the center of our galaxy. I I
• 34:27
  calculated 9,780 but no that's okay.
• 34:30
  Just round it up.
• 34:33
  >> 10,000. Yeah, it's near enough.
• 34:36
  >> 9,780. Well done.
• 34:38
  >> Yes. Well, 3 3,000 par six is from the
• 34:41
  center of the Milky Way galaxy. And
• 34:43
  people are saying, well, how close does
• 34:45
  that put it to us? Well, we're what?
• 34:46
  We're about 8,000.
• 34:48
  >> Uh uh where yes, something like 25,000
• 34:52
  light years. Yeah. Away. So, yes, you're
• 34:55
  right. Two and a half times further
• 34:56
  away.
• 34:58
  >> Um so, yeah, um an interesting set of
• 35:00
  observations, a nice piece of research.
• 35:03
  uh because um and and I guess a lot of
• 35:05
  it is serendipitous. They they're
• 35:07
  fortunate that Guyia happened to be
• 35:08
  looking at the same bit of sky at the
• 35:11
  same time. I'm not sure whether this was
• 35:12
  intentional, whether this work was can
• 35:15
  you give us time on the GIA spacecraft
• 35:17
  to look at a particular patch of sky
• 35:19
  because we're going to look at it at the
• 35:20
  same time uh with a groundbased
• 35:22
  telescope or whether it was a
• 35:24
  serendipitous observation. I need to
• 35:26
  follow up on that tool.
• 35:28
  >> Yes. Yes. Uh but uh it's very
• 35:30
  interesting um discovery, the fact that
• 35:33
  it came from two sources.
• 35:35
  >> Yeah.
• 35:35
  >> And so uh yeah, and uh there'll be more
• 35:38
  of these to be found. And with all the
• 35:40
  new telescopes that are getting ready to
• 35:41
  be
• 35:43
  >> um commissioned, we'll say
• 35:45
  >> um there's probably so much more ready
• 35:48
  to be discovered that's just lurking out
• 35:50
  there waiting for the right equipment to
• 35:52
  point at it.
• 35:52
  >> Yep, that's quite right. stuff that we
• 35:54
  didn't even know existed until not that
• 35:57
  long ago.
• 35:58
  >> Yeah. And I I suppose that's a that's a
• 36:00
  question for you, Fred, we might as well
• 36:02
  ask. Um, you know, in recent years, have
• 36:06
  we seen a real escalation in the number
• 36:08
  of new discoveries because of of
• 36:10
  technology that's improved?
• 36:12
  >> Absolutely. You've only to think of the
• 36:14
  the web telescope itself. uh you know
• 36:17
  we've got almost one story every day
• 36:19
  coming out from that
• 36:21
  >> uh of of real significance. Um so yes
• 36:27
  the obviously the technology absolutely
• 36:31
  uh progressively has revolutionized
• 36:34
  astronomy. It's it's been the same for
• 36:37
  centuries really. Uh, and the one I'm
• 36:41
  thinking of that perhaps did more than
• 36:42
  any other in terms of the the the giant
• 36:45
  leap that it made was photography when
• 36:47
  photography could be applied to
• 36:48
  astronomy towards the end of the 19th
• 36:51
  century. And you were suddenly in a
• 36:52
  regime where you could you could
• 36:54
  actually make
• 36:55
  >> qualitative measurements uh of things
• 36:58
  that people had only really been able to
• 37:00
  look at by eye and you could also see
• 37:02
  things that were much much fainter
• 37:04
  >> than the eye would reveal. So that was
• 37:07
  one of the biggest leaps. Then uh 100
• 37:09
  years later effectively we did the same
• 37:11
  thing but electronically with the charge
• 37:13
  couple devices and things like that that
• 37:15
  are maybe 20 times more sensitive than a
• 37:18
  photographic plate. So you suddenly got
• 37:20
  another leap and then bigger and bigger
• 37:22
  telescopes. Yeah, it's a theme that has
• 37:25
  been close to my heart because my career
• 37:27
  is now so long that I've seen a lot of
• 37:30
  these things firsthand. You know, I was
• 37:35
  using photographic plates when I
• 37:36
  started. That was the state-of-the-art,
• 37:38
  the technology. I remember when I was at
• 37:40
  school reading about some um um I was
• 37:45
  going to say eccentric, maybe that's the
• 37:47
  word, French astronomer who was trying
• 37:49
  to make electronic images of the sky.
• 37:52
  And I thought that's fantastic. That is
• 37:54
  superb. I want to do that kind of thing.
• 37:55
  But it was still very experimental. Now
• 37:58
  >> just just, you know, press a button and
• 38:00
  there it is.
• 38:00
  >> Yeah.
• 38:01
  >> Although you're still using photographic
• 38:02
  plates, you really need to move on,
• 38:04
  Fred. Um, uh, there are some people who
• 38:08
  do.
• 38:09
  >> I know. I know there are.
• 38:10
  >> It's not me.
• 38:11
  >> Yeah. Actually, retro is in at the
• 38:13
  moment. People, um, my my
• 38:14
  daughter-in-law got a record player for
• 38:17
  Christmas. So,
• 38:18
  >> yeah. Well, my uh my turntable's right
• 38:21
  there.
• 38:21
  >> Yeah, I've got one, too. Although, it's
• 38:23
  in a box in a cupboard in a
• 38:25
  >> I don't know where it is. It's somewhere
• 38:26
  around here. But, uh, I can plug it into
• 38:29
  a computer, so I can digitize anything.
• 38:31
  >> Very good.
• 38:32
  >> Yeah.
• 38:33
  >> Yeah. It's amazing. Um, so if you would
• 38:35
  like to read up on the rogue planet uh
• 38:38
  story and how they discovered it, you
• 38:39
  can do that at spaceaily.com.
• 38:43
  >> Fred, that brings us to the end of our
• 38:45
  first program back for the year.
• 38:48
  >> Well, that's gone quickly, hasn't it?
• 38:49
  >> Sure has. Yeah, it's flashing through
• 38:52
  them.
• 38:53
  >> Yeah. No, that's great. Um, and welcome
• 38:55
  to 2026. Who knows what we're going to
• 38:57
  see in 2026. Lots of astronomy events.
• 39:00
  We might talk about that in the next
• 39:01
  episodes. what what's coming up for
• 39:03
  2026.
• 39:05
  >> You can find plenty of websites where
• 39:07
  it'll tell you. Uh but um I think we're
• 39:10
  in for an exciting year with the you
• 39:13
  know the VC Ruben telescope coming
• 39:15
  online and various other pieces of kit
• 39:18
  which we're going to find results from.
• 39:20
  It's going to be very exciting.
• 39:21
  >> Absolutely. All right. Thanks Fred.
• 39:23
  We'll catch you next time.
• 39:24
  >> I hope so. Uh Professor Fred Watson,
• 39:28
  astronomer at large joining us on Space
• 39:30
  Nuts. And thanks to Hugh in the studio
• 39:31
  who couldn't be with us today because uh
• 39:34
  well he indulged in way too much
• 39:36
  Christmas cake and and nuts and well you
• 39:39
  know the stuff. Anyway, um apparently
• 39:41
  he's seeing someone named Jenny Craig
• 39:43
  about it. Uh and
• 39:46
  and from me, Andrew Dunley, thanks for
• 39:48
  your company. We'll see you again soon
• 39:51
  on the very next episode of Space Nuts.
• 39:53
  Bye-bye.
• 39:54
  >> Space Nuts. You've been listening to the
• 39:56
  Space Nuts podcast
• 39:59
  >> available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
• 40:02
  iHeart Radio, or your favorite podcast
• 40:05
  player. You can also stream on demand at
• 40:07
  bytes.com. This has been another quality
• 40:10
  podcast production from byes.com.