Latest / The Mental Health Evolution / Ep 35: Ethical Marketing Strategies for Mental Health Practices with Adrienne Wilkerson

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Ep 35: Ethical Marketing Strategies for Mental Health Practices with Adrienne Wilkerson · The Mental Health Evolution

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) This podcast is part of the Frederick Podcast
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Network.
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Learn more at listenfrederick.com.
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Welcome to Mental Health Evolution, a podcast about
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what's changing in mental health and why it
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matters.
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I'm your host, Rachel Harrison, inviting you into
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honest conversations with people from all perspectives in
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the field, clinicians, tech founders, investors, insurance companies,
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and all the folks in between.
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Let's explore what's working, what's not, and what's
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next.
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Welcome back, everyone, to the Mental Health Evolution
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podcast.
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I am here with my guest today, Adrienne
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Wilkerson, and we are talking about how the
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landscape is quickly evolving in the mental health
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industry.
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Today, Adrienne is going to give us her
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expert perspective on marketing in particular.
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She is the founder and CEO of Beacon
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Media and Marketing, and she focuses specifically on
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helping mental and behavioral health organizations grow their
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visibility, communicate effectively, and connect with the people
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who need care.
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Her work centers on translating marketing strategies into
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practical, ethical approaches that small and independent practices
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can actually use, especially in a competitive environment
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where larger corporate and tech-enabled organizations are
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increasingly present.
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She is also the author of Digital Marketing
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for Mental Health, where she shares actionable strategies
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tailored specifically to behavioral health organizations, and we
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will definitely link that in the show notes
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for you if you wanna find out more
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about her book.
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So as always, I wanna go ahead and
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start this podcast with some articles relevant to
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our conversation for today.
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The first one is called Inside the Consolidation
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Renaissance Across Digital Behavioral Health, and this article
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talks about how corporate and private equity-backed
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organizations are increasingly acquiring smaller behavioral health providers.
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It highlights how consolidation is reshaping the competitive
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landscape and creating challenges for independent practices trying
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to maintain visibility and sustainability.
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So when Adrienne and I have a chance
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to dig in a little bit more, we'll
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definitely look at that, but just understanding that
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a lot of these consolidations are happening.
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I just read about three more this week.
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So every week, the landscape is changing.
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Article number two is called How AI is
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Changing Online Marketing for Small Businesses, and this
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article by Forbes talks about how AI tools
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are being used to streamline marketing tasks like
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content creation, audience targeting, and campaign optimization.
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It also talks about how small businesses can
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leverage AI to compete more effectively with larger
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organizations that have bigger marketing budgets.
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So I'm excited to dive into that one
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a little bit more too.
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And last but not least is Ethical Principles
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of Psychologists and Code of Conduct.
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And I love, love that Adrienne likes to
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focus on ethics too, because as we all
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know, just as a reminder for those of
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us that do have a license in mental
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health, there are certain things we're required to
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do to market ourselves in ethical ways.
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So we wanna make sure that that is
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a part of this conversation as well.
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So without further ado, Adrienne, welcome for being
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here.
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Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.
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Yes, so let's dig in.
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I wanna talk about a little bit about
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you.
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I would love to know, how did you
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kind of get into this niche of marketing?
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That's a fantastic question and a great story
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that we probably don't have a ton of
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time for, but the cliff note version is,
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my father is a therapist and an entrepreneur.
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He just retired after 30 years of running
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his own.
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He actually did a medical and counseling practice.
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And so the idea was care for the
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whole person and being able to pair the
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medical and the mental health together.
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So it was one of my first jobs
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was working on the medical side actually, but
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kind of back and forth.
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So I got kind of a real in
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-depth look of what the backend of running
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a practice looks like, the billing side of
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it, just the logistics and everything behind the
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curtain.
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So I also watched him grow this practice
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and really struggle with the balance of, I
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just wanna help people and how can I
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help more people?
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But then also really struggling to promote himself
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and his clinicians and that kind of like,
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I don't wanna talk about myself.
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I don't wanna brag.
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I don't wanna put myself out there and
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just really watched him struggle with that.
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And we had a lot, many, many conversations,
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and I think he was really hoping I
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would follow in his footsteps.
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But I'm like, my path runs parallel to
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yours.
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So really taking that experience and my giftings
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in communication and solving complex problems and really
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trying to address something that I really watched
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him struggle with for a long time.
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And then my husband was actually a behavioral
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health counselor for many years as well.
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So I got the addiction recovery side of
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it, as well as growing up with a
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therapist as a father and getting to work
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in the clinic.
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So all of that kind of put it
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together.
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And in 2019, when we realized we really
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needed to niche down, we started in Alaska
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and worked with a lot of small businesses
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up there.
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I was born and raised there.
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So it was kind of a natural transition
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place to start.
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So that also feeds into some of the
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reason why we're in this, just the mental
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toughness and really wanting to be able to
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help other people on their journey too.
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Cause in Alaska, we're pretty isolated.
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You kind of have to depend on each
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other a lot of times.
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And so being able to help each other
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through things, but, you know, really we expanded
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out of Alaska in 2019 or 2017, sorry.
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And by 2019, we realized we really needed
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to pick a niche.
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And it's funny cause we tell our clients
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this all the time.
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You know, you gotta niche down.
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Everybody is nobody.
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You gotta niche down.
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And we realized we weren't really living by
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our own, you know, weren't walking out what
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we were preaching.
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So we niched down.
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We were already kind of specialized in the
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healthcare industry, but we realized that really wasn't
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enough when we were marketing on a national
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scale.
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So we decided to niche down in mental
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and behavioral health and in part because of
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my background.
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And that was really a lot of where
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my heart was, but also being able to
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speak the language.
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So a lot of the business owners we
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work with and they don't have to explain
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all the acronyms.
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They don't have to explain the frustrations of
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insurance billing and the delays and just all
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of the intricacy that's unique to the mental
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and behavioral health world.
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So it was kind of a natural transition,
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I guess, if you were.
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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
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So let's dig into that a little bit
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more.
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What would you describe as some of the
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differences in marketing for behavioral health versus other
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industries?
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Well, I think some of the articles that
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you brought up kind of touch on it
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too.
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There's a unique ethical component to marketing for
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mental health.
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Unlike some industries, this is not like you're
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buying a new pair of tennis shoes.
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This is, you're in crisis.
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Either you or the loved one that's reaching
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out, trying to find that answer at two
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o'clock in the morning because they can't
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sleep because they don't know where their teenager
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is.
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They don't know if they're strung out somewhere.
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Or they're just at the end of the
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rope communicating with their spouse or with their...
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We're dealing with people in a very serious
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place.
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And so it's a very vulnerable population.
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And so marketing has to be approached in
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a very specific way.
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It has to be marketing with empathy.
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This is, again, this is not transactional.
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This is somebody's mental health.
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This is somebody's addiction recovery side.
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I mean, this is life or death for
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some people.
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So it carries a whole different weight than
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say e-commerce does, for example.
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So understanding the impact and the responsibility that
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we as marketers carry in this, like I
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said, it's not selling tennis shoes.
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So there is a different perspective, a different
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point of view, a different tone, a different
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sensitivity.
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I really say all the time that marketing
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is about connection and it should always be
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about connection.
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Whatever tool you're using, paid ads, AI, content,
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it has to be about connection first.
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And when you make the right connections, the
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right clients will follow.
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But if you're not choosing to make that
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connection first, you're gonna get a broad sweep.
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It's not gonna really help your ROI because
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you're gonna get a lot of clients that
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may or may not be a good fit
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for you.
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And you'll get a lot of tire kickers.
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And again, in the mental health space, you
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just probably won't get as many leads because
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you're not connecting with a person who is
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in need.
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And guess what?
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They're gonna bounce to the next listing that
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AI gave them.
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Definitely.
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They're gonna bounce because they're looking for that
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connection.
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And if you're not genuinely meeting them where
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they're at and connecting with them there, whether
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that is the actual patient themselves or the
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loved one or whomever it is, or even
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the referring doctor who's looking desperately for something
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else to help this patient, you're gonna miss
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really valuable leads of people who could really,
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really help.
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So there's that whole component, which we could
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probably pontificate on for a long time, but
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there's also the HIPAA, the PHI side that
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has gotten much more stringent, which is not
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a bad thing at all, but it does
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make it more challenging for marketers.
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We have to be cognizant of it.
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We have to be respectful of it.
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And like I said, I think it's a
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good thing, but it is a thing that
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marketers who aren't used to it get very
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frustrated by it.
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Don't even know it exists half the time.
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I mean, I was talking to one marketer
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who works in e-commerce.
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And when I told him we can't track
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IP addresses, his jaw hit the floor.
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He's like, well, how do you retarget?
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How do you even do your job?
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And I'm like, very creatively, because a lot
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of tools that are available to other marketers,
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you can't use in our industry, at least
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not the same way.
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You can't ask for reviews like you can
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in most other industries.
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I mean, everybody asks for reviews.
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They are a cornerstone of marketing.
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And yet in the mental behavioral health field,
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you have to tread very carefully and very
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respectfully.
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And so it's a real balancing act in
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some areas.
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And if you don't understand what you're getting
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into when you get into marketing and the
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mental health, you can do some real damage,
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not just to the public at large, but
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legally to your company.
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If you're not respecting the HIPAA, the PHI,
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if you don't even understand the intricacies which
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are getting more and more significant.
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We've had clients that are trying to do
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paid ads and they do med management.
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And if they don't have legit scripts, Google's
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gonna pull your website and blacklist it.
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And it's almost impossible to get off the
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blacklist once you're on.
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So we've had to rebuild whole websites, whole
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brands, whole presences for clients, because they didn't
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even know when they were working with a
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marketing agency that did not know that you
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had to have legit scripts if you're gonna
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do paid ads.
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So there's some very interesting nuances that I
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enjoy and I appreciate for what they are,
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but it is definitely unique.
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Yeah.
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And you mentioned AI.
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I'm really curious how you think AI is
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intersecting with marketing in this space particularly.
12:01
It's messy.
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Yeah.
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I know.
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That was a huge question too, but yeah.
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It is.
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It's a really important question though.
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And I've spoken at the Mental Health Marketing
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Conference in Nashville many years, many different years
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on this, because it is really important that
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we in the mental health industry understand the
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pluses and the minuses of what AI can
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do, not just in the marketing space, but
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just kind of across the board.
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But in the mental health space specifically, I
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think one of the big dangers, especially for
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smaller clinics, is AI almost feels like this
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golden bullet at the beginning.
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Oh, I can use this to do all
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this ad copy and write all my social
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media posts and do all my blogs.
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This is amazing.
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And it is, except you have to be
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very, very careful.
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And there's lots of layers to that.
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AI is great at pattern recognition.
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It has no empathy.
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It does not know what empathy is.
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It might mimic it if the pattern's there,
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but it's not true empathy.
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It's not true connection.
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And so I think it's a trap for
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a lot of smaller agencies and smaller clinics
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where we wanna use it to be able
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to keep up with the big boys.
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You mentioned that of getting gobbled up, a
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lot of companies getting gobbled up.
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We're seeing it on the marketing side, by
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the way, too.
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The marketing industry is saying the same trend,
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very, very rapid growth with some agencies gobbling
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up a lot of the smaller ones.
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And some of the same problems in our
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industry is with the mental health industry around
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that too.
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But back to AI.
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So with AI, you have to humanize it.
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And this is the piece that a lot
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of companies miss.
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AI is, again, great at pattern recognition.
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So it's really great at taking a lot
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of data, recognizing patterns that we probably would
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never see because we can't assimilate that much
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data, much less analyze it.
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But it can only analyze it from its
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context of patterns.
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It doesn't analyze it from an empathetic human
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standpoint.
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Now, some engineers would probably argue with me
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that the AI way is better, but those
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of us in mental health understand that that
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empathy is what sets us apart, if you
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will.
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And so what I advise a lot of
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people is, yes, leverage AI is a powerful
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tool, but don't advocate your humanness, your thought
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authority to that AI.
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And I think that that's usually my bottom
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line on AI.
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It's a great copilot.
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It's great for doing research.
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It's great for writing blog outlines and blog
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drafts, but read that draft out loud to
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yourself.
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Would you really speak like that to another
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human being?
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More often than not, probably no.
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There might be some parts that just sound
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fine, and then you're gonna run across a
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sentence, you're like, okay, that sounds like it
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came right out of the matrix.
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That was not me, kind of a thing.
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So oftentimes when we read out loud, we
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can catch stuff that when we read it
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just silently, our brains tend to plug in
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automatically some of those empathetic pieces.
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But we tend to catch them better when
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we read out loud.
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Don't know exactly why that is.
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I'm sure there's a scientific, something or other
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around it somewhere, but it's one of the
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things that I experience quite often in that
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arena, that there's just something about reading it
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out loud.
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So yes, AI can level the playing field,
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but only if you use it in a
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way that's empathetic.
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If you're not, what ends up happening is
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you damage yourself more than you help.
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Because now that image that starts going out
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online in your blogs, in your social media
15:54
copy, it presents something probably I'm going to
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assume you don't wanna present.
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It's a cold front.
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It's not caring.
16:04
It's kind of shallow is the word I
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hear a lot of people use.
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They're like, it's just kind of two dimensional.
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It doesn't have any depth.
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And people can't always pick out why.
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Now people pick on em dashes all the
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time, which drive me nuts.
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Cause I've been using em dashes since long
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before AI was using them, but now I
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can't use them anymore.
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Cause everyone's like, that's AI.
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Cause AI loves them.
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They're good tools, but they're overused.
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So, but there's, you know, there's just certain
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things people be like, it just doesn't feel
16:36
right.
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And usually what they're picking up on it,
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it just doesn't have that human connection part.
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There's not empathy there.
16:44
It's a mimic of what a human would
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do.
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And that's, I think that's still the differentiator.
16:53
That differentiator might disappear in the future, the
16:56
way things are going, God, I hope not,
16:58
but it is becoming harder and harder.
17:01
I think to differentiate video is getting better
17:05
and better deep fakes are getting better and
17:07
better.
17:07
And that just creates more and more distrust
17:10
in the public about what the content that's
17:14
being put out.
17:15
So again, that human to human connection becomes
17:19
even more important as that distrust grows because
17:25
of what AI is bringing to the marketplace.
17:30
You mentioned some parallels to what's happening in
17:35
the marketing industry, as well as the mental
17:37
health industry.
17:38
And because you probably work with a lot
17:40
of mental health providers, groups, even larger organizations,
17:46
I'm curious, what are you seeing as patterns,
17:50
both for like what people are looking for
17:54
in a therapy provider, and also what do
17:58
you see shifting in the industry?
18:00
In the mental health industry specifically?
18:03
Yeah.
18:04
One interesting trend that we're seeing, which I
18:08
find scary, is the amount of men that
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are turning to AI for therapy.
18:16
And it's not growing like in leaps and
18:20
bounds, but it is steadily growing.
18:23
The amount of men that are reporting that
18:26
they've found relief, they've found help from AI.
18:30
They would prefer AI to a therapist.
18:34
And I think men have always historically struggled
18:38
with going to see therapy, which is interesting
18:41
considering my father is a therapist, but even
18:43
he would talk about this.
18:44
Like you have to approach treating a guy
18:47
often differently than a woman because there's a
18:49
different thought process.
18:50
There's a different way that they process emotions
18:55
or they view things.
18:57
And everybody's individual and different too.
19:00
But that stigma of men don't go see
19:03
therapy kind of a thing has, I think,
19:06
opened up this back door to men using
19:09
AI.
19:09
They don't feel judged.
19:10
Nobody knows that they're getting help.
19:14
My husband thoroughly enjoys trying to trip AI
19:17
up because his background as a counselor, he's
19:19
just like, okay, I'm gonna test this out
19:21
and see how good it actually is.
19:23
And he's like, on the surface, it's okay.
19:26
On the surface, it appears to give good
19:28
answers.
19:29
But he's like, when you dig any deeper
19:31
than that, again, it's just, there's not a
19:34
human component.
19:35
It is pattern recognition.
19:38
And so it's easy to mislead it, to
19:41
be honest.
19:42
And we've seen lots of lawsuits and they're
19:44
growing, unfortunately, of AI convincing people to kill
19:48
themselves or to do bodily harm or some
19:51
really scary stuff.
19:54
So I think that's a very worrisome trend
19:57
that we're seeing.
19:58
I think there's a lot of men that
20:01
are really hurting that are turning to this
20:04
when traditional therapy would probably be better more
20:07
often than not.
20:08
So that's an interesting trend that we're combating
20:12
a lot with our clients of how do
20:15
you do that with a positive angle?
20:16
You don't wanna judge, don't go AI.
20:19
But bringing up the positive sides of talking
20:23
to a therapist, helping break down the barriers
20:26
that there shouldn't be a stigma for a
20:30
guy to see therapy.
20:31
Now, this is not so true of the
20:32
younger generations, but the older millennials, the Xennials,
20:38
all the different names, the Gen Xers, all
20:40
of the, that generation, they definitely struggle.
20:43
And they're actually adopting AI faster than a
20:47
lot of the Gen Z generations are, which
20:50
is also interesting.
20:51
My son's 18, hates AI, doesn't wanna use
20:55
it.
20:55
He's like, it's fake, it's all fake.
20:58
So there's like this baked in mistrust of
21:01
AI that doesn't exist in some of the
21:05
older generations.
21:07
So that's a really, they have different mistrust,
21:10
I should say, maybe more specifically.
21:12
So that's an interesting trend.
21:14
We're seeing just the flood of content that
21:19
AI is dumping into the internet, creating a
21:23
massive fatigue with people.
21:25
So one of the interesting ways that's manifesting
21:28
in mental health marketing specifically is the people
21:33
aren't liking things as much.
21:35
They're not commenting as much.
21:38
They're just scrolling.
21:40
And they might save that video.
21:43
We're seeing a bigger increase of people saying,
21:45
oh yeah, I saved one of your videos,
21:47
or I saved an article that popped up
21:48
in my newsfeed, you know, and I came
21:50
back to it a month later, or I
21:51
sent it to a friend of mine.
21:53
So we're seeing an increase of that, but
21:56
it's really hard to track because the only
21:57
way you get that information is if they
22:00
share it to you by the time they
22:02
become a patient, which can be six to
22:05
nine months after they saw your original piece
22:08
of content.
22:08
Right, yeah.
22:10
So that attribution arc that used to be
22:14
really short with paid ads specifically, you know,
22:17
you put this ad out, it goes to
22:18
this page, they sign up, they book an
22:21
appointment.
22:21
It's a very clear attribution chain.
22:23
I spent this much for this ad, I
22:26
got this many clients, new clients in, and
22:28
we converted this many of them.
22:30
Made marketing really easy from that standpoint.
22:33
Those days are gone.
22:35
And it's killing us marketers, and it's not
22:38
easy for business owners either because how do
22:40
you quantify your ROI when you can't track
22:44
attribution very well?
22:45
Now, this was the problem we all dealt
22:47
with in the early days of digital marketing.
22:49
And frankly, this is what we dealt with
22:51
forever in advertising too.
22:53
It's really hard, you can't track how many
22:55
people listen to your radio program or saw
22:58
your TV commercial.
22:59
You just kind of had to generally watch
23:01
is this rising tide lifting all ships.
23:04
We're back to that world, which is really
23:07
interesting because for six years-ish, we had
23:10
really clear tracking.
23:11
And so this is a really hard trend
23:14
for marketers and for business owners alike.
23:17
And it's a conversation we're having a lot,
23:20
and it's brutal because I don't have a
23:23
good answer.
23:24
And anybody out there in the industry who
23:25
says they do, I would seriously question their
23:29
expertise because the tracking just isn't there the
23:34
way it has been.
23:36
It's evolving, it's becoming different, but we're still
23:39
all guessing as to what AI is going
23:41
to pull when and where.
23:43
We have some good ideas, but it is
23:47
not as clean as what paid ads was.
23:51
Paid ads, even especially Google ads.
23:53
I mean, Google pushes those down below their
23:55
Gemini recommendations now.
23:57
I know.
23:58
Yeah, I mean, if you're looking on a
24:00
smaller screen, they're not even on the screen
24:02
anymore.
24:03
I know, like on the phone, all you
24:05
see is the Gemini, right?
24:06
Yeah.
24:07
Yes, exactly.
24:08
So if you're not showing up there, nobody's
24:11
even seeing your paid ads, the way we
24:14
used to.
24:14
So are they dead?
24:16
No.
24:17
Are they evolving?
24:18
Absolutely.
24:19
And for right now, it's a very messy
24:22
attribution chain, which again is uncomfortable for marketers
24:26
and business owners alike, especially small business owners
24:30
and small practice owners where every dollar is
24:33
so valuable.
24:35
We talk in marketing that, and they say
24:39
this in business consulting a lot too, but
24:41
you should expect to spend about five to
24:43
7% of your overall revenue on marketing.
24:46
That's kind of your benchmark.
24:48
If you're wanting to grow really aggressively, more
24:50
than that.
24:51
But that's a big chunk for small businesses.
24:55
And that's a hard check to write.
24:58
And if you're not seeing direct ROI on
25:01
that, or you're having a marketing agency telling
25:03
you it's gonna be six months of paying
25:05
this before you may ever see a return
25:07
on that investment, that's not what you wanna
25:10
hear.
25:11
It's not what I wanna tell clients either,
25:14
but unfortunately it is the reality of where
25:16
we're at right now.
25:17
And I do think things will continue to
25:20
evolve and get to where we can track
25:22
attribution better, but there's almost no consistent tracking
25:26
out there for ROI through AI.
25:28
We'll have a lot of the reputable marketing
25:31
places are scrambling to get caught, or reporting
25:33
places are scrambling to get caught up, but
25:36
they almost all contradict each other.
25:39
HubSpot reports one thing, SEMrush reports something else.
25:43
There's all these other AIs popping up going,
25:45
we can do it better.
25:46
And some of them have some parts better
25:48
than others, or they track Gemini really well,
25:51
but not perplexity.
25:52
So it's the Wild West of marketing all
25:55
over again.
25:56
And it's brutal.
25:58
I mean, like I said, we started in
25:59
2012.
26:00
We were the first digital marketing agency in
26:03
Alaska, and it was a Wild West then.
26:06
We never knew quite what was going to
26:08
happen or when Facebook was gonna change something
26:10
and make it all miserable.
26:13
So we're kind of back in that world
26:16
again.
26:17
And it's not a comfortable place to be
26:19
for anybody, to be honest.
26:21
Yeah, and it's interesting that you mentioned, like
26:24
the smaller business owners.
26:25
I think the other trend I'm seeing, because
26:28
I interact with a lot of people in
26:30
this space is people utilizing marketing for the
26:34
first time.
26:35
Because a lot of providers, a lot of
26:38
businesses in the mental health space, my business
26:41
also never needed to do marketing.
26:45
Right, yeah.
26:47
But no, that's really true.
26:48
Like you said, you gotta compete with the
26:50
big boys.
26:50
And all of these different things coming in
26:53
that's starting to shift.
26:55
So looking at, oh, we might have to
26:58
market now.
26:58
Like we didn't even have to think about
27:00
that before.
27:01
Right, well, and we saw a really interesting
27:03
trend.
27:05
So we decided to niche down on mental
27:07
health right before COVID.
27:09
And the need for mental health services obviously
27:12
skyrocketed during COVID.
27:14
And so a lot of people started, they
27:16
left a group practice, started their own practice
27:19
during that time.
27:20
And like you said, there really was very
27:22
little marketing needed.
27:24
And by about 2022, 2023, we were watching
27:30
trends start to kind of go back to
27:32
pre-COVID norms.
27:34
So the cost per lead, cost per click,
27:36
all of that started kind of drifting back
27:38
to that kind of telehealth spiked and then
27:41
kind of came back down.
27:43
It's reached a new kind of level ground
27:46
that's higher than it was before, but definitely
27:48
not as high as it was during COVID.
27:50
So that's also pushed a lot of people
27:53
toward needing marketing.
27:54
Like you said, all you had to do
27:56
was hang out a shingle, unfortunately or fortunately
27:59
during COVID because people were so aware of
28:02
the need for mental health services.
28:05
And that really has decreased some, but not
28:08
in comparison to the cost per lead, cost
28:12
per click, that kind of thing.
28:14
So clinics that were around before COVID, they're
28:16
like, oh yeah, we get this, this feels
28:18
familiar.
28:18
But the clinics that started during that time,
28:20
it's sticker shock, you know, kind of a
28:22
thing.
28:22
So that's kind of tapered down, but kind
28:25
of just to your point, yeah.
28:28
Marketing is a need now that didn't exist
28:31
in as urgent of a way before.
28:34
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
28:36
Well, we are getting to the end of
28:38
our time together, but I would just like
28:41
to kind of ask you a final question
28:43
is just if you could leave something for
28:47
anyone in this space from a marketing perspective,
28:50
like what is a message you would like
28:53
either independent clinicians, small practice owners, or even
28:56
larger entities in the space?
28:58
What is the thing that people really need
29:01
to know?
29:02
What's your kind of last word or inspiration
29:05
for our listeners today?
29:07
I think I'll go back to what I
29:08
harp on that at the end of the
29:10
day, marketing has to be about connection first.
29:13
The conversions will follow, but if you focused
29:16
on conversions first, you're never gonna get a
29:19
good second chance to make that connection.
29:23
And you're going to invest a lot more
29:25
money because you're going to have to dig
29:28
through a lot that you might not be
29:30
able to help a lot of clients that
29:32
aren't your ideal client.
29:34
And, but when you make that connection first,
29:36
the leads convert at a higher rate.
29:39
They are stickier clients because you made a
29:42
connection with them and it's a real connection.
29:44
So that's something that frequently gets lost in
29:48
marketing.
29:48
We talk conversions, we talk data, we talk
29:51
numbers, all of that's important, but marketing has
29:54
to start and end with connection.
29:57
Otherwise you won't get the right.