Latest / The Kenny Report / The Kenny Report | 7 September

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The Kenny Report | 7 September · The Kenny Report

0:02
Speaker 1: This is The Kenny Report.
0:06
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me for another week here on The
0:08
Speaker 2: Kenny Report. Tonight, the Albanese government failing to do all
0:11
Speaker 2: it could and should to keep Australians safe, as even
0:15
Speaker 2: comments from the ASIO boss suggest they didn't do enough
0:19
Speaker 2: in the lead-up to Bondi. And in the week we
0:21
Speaker 2: commemorate 25 years since 9-11, John Howard on that fateful day,
0:27
Speaker 2: Islamist extremism and the battles ongoing. A former Israeli ambassador
0:32
Speaker 2: to the UK tells us his country has made the
0:35
Speaker 2: Middle East and the world a safer place and that
0:38
Speaker 2: defending Israel helps Western civilisation. In the UK, the illegal
0:43
Speaker 2: immigration crisis reaches a flashpoint. I'll cross to Sophie Ellsworth,
0:48
Speaker 2: plus the housing debate in Parliament with Dan Tehan and
0:51
Speaker 2: Gemma Tognini and Caroline Darussu on One Nation, super and mortgages.
0:56
Speaker 2: Let's get into it. I want to start tonight with
1:02
Speaker 2: what is the most important issue in the country. It's
1:05
Speaker 2: about how your own government has clearly not done enough
1:08
Speaker 2: to keep you safe. The Bondi massacre makes that much clear.
1:12
Speaker 2: And it's about whether the Albanese government is doing enough
1:15
Speaker 2: to keep you and your loved ones safe now and
1:18
Speaker 2: in the future. Anthony Albanese's abysmal failure of leadership in
1:22
Speaker 2: the wake of the barbaric Hamas attack against Israel on
1:26
Speaker 2: October 7, 2023, and in the lead-up to the Bondi
1:30
Speaker 2: Beach massacre last year, are now being followed up true
1:34
Speaker 2: to form by a complete absence of leadership in response
1:39
Speaker 2: to the Bondi horror. The Royal Commission he was dragged
1:42
Speaker 2: kicking and screaming into has been exposed as superficial and incomplete.
1:50
Speaker 2: As I've said before, it's full of royal omissions. Not
1:54
Speaker 2: only has it failed to examine all the warnings leading
1:56
Speaker 2: up to Bondi... public and private, and has also failed
2:00
Speaker 2: to interrogate the main exponents of the hatred. But it's
2:05
Speaker 2: also failed to call the Prime Minister and relevant ministers
2:09
Speaker 2: and ask them what they knew and what they did
2:13
Speaker 2: in response to the public and private warnings, which is
2:16
Speaker 2: why former Prime Minister John Howard had this to say
2:20
Speaker 2: on this program last week.
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Speaker 3: I'd say to the Prime Minister, you're the man who called.
2:27
Speaker 3: this Royal Commission. I know you didn't want to, but
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Speaker 3: why don't you be man enough and just extend the
2:33
Speaker 3: terms of reference and give her the flexibility that I
2:38
Speaker 3: think the public would agree with and would appreciate. So
2:43
Speaker 3: I'm calling on the Prime Minister to act rather than her.
2:46
Speaker 2: Well, not only do we know the Prime Minister will
2:49
Speaker 2: not be man enough to do this, we now know
2:52
Speaker 2: a little bit more about why. Because he would be
2:55
Speaker 2: asked about warnings from people like his own domestic security
3:00
Speaker 2: intelligence boss, the ASIO Director-General, Mike Burgess. As our own
3:05
Speaker 2: Shari Markson revealed in a News 24 story from her
3:08
Speaker 2: forthcoming book, Spy Chief Mike Burgess has revealed his profound
3:13
Speaker 2: frustration and regret that his repeated warnings about anti-Semitism posing
3:18
Speaker 2: the country's deadliest threat were underestimated by those in leadership
3:24
Speaker 2: positions prior to last year's Bondi terror attack. By those
3:30
Speaker 2: in leadership positions. Now, Burgess is too professional to name names,
3:36
Speaker 2: but who could have been more responsible for all this
3:40
Speaker 2: than the Prime Minister and his Home Affairs Minister, Tony Burke.
3:44
Speaker 2: Direct quotes from the ASIO boss bear all this out.
3:47
Speaker 2: He said, But in the end, I would suggest security
4:05
Speaker 2: is a shared responsibility in society. And others actually had
4:10
Speaker 2: to take up that call. Either challenge me for more
4:13
Speaker 2: details or take action. Who are these others? Well, there
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Speaker 2: could be many. State premiers and ministers, police commissioners, other
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Speaker 2: public figures. But definitely others. front and centre, the others
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Speaker 2: who should have done more must include the Minister and
4:33
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister, which makes these comments from John Howard,
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Speaker 2: who fronted a difficult inquiry he called when he was
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Speaker 2: Prime Minister, it makes them all the more powerful and pertinent.
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Speaker 3: I can be critical of the fact that whereas it
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Speaker 3: was good enough for me and Alexander Downer and Mark
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Speaker 3: Bale to appear before a Royal Commission, in effect a
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Speaker 3: Royal Commission, that we'd called into the activities of a
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Speaker 3: government agency, it ought to be good enough for at
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Speaker 3: least the Prime Minister and the person responsible for security
5:02
Speaker 3: agencies to turn up and say whether they received any advice. Now,
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Speaker 3: they've got to think. Did they? Were they warned? We
5:13
Speaker 3: don't know.
5:13
Speaker 2: Well, we do know they were warned publicly, but Howard
5:18
Speaker 2: is right. We don't know about the private and classified warnings.
5:22
Speaker 2: But Burgess, the ASIO boss, does. All Australians deserve to
5:27
Speaker 2: know the truth. We deserve to hear from our elected
5:30
Speaker 2: officials in this inquiry. 14 people were slaughtered, including a
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Speaker 2: 10-year-old girl. What more could the government have done to
5:40
Speaker 2: prevent this? When it comes to anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and Islamist extremism,
5:46
Speaker 2: if there's one thing I've done over the past few years,
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Speaker 2: it's warn about the rise in these forms of hatred.
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Speaker 2: especially on the back of the Hamas atrocities in Israel
5:56
Speaker 2: on October 7, 2023. I've been especially critical of the
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Speaker 2: activist left, weak leftist governments and international bodies such as
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Speaker 2: the United Nations because they've amplified Hamas propaganda about the
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Speaker 2: war in Gaza, their lies about genocide, targeting of civilians,
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Speaker 2: nonsense about starvation and all the rest of it. Because
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Speaker 2: this has fuelled endless aggressive and threatening protests, normalising anti-Jew hatred.
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Speaker 2: And all this has created the climate for even more
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Speaker 2: Islamist extremism. As I must have said hundreds of times,
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Speaker 2: our own government is culpable because of its indolence. in
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Speaker 2: response to the threats and the warnings, and because its
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Speaker 2: foreign policy positions and decisions have demonised Israel, repeating false
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Speaker 2: assertions and recognising the non-existent state of Palestine, thereby rewarding
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Speaker 2: the Islamist terrorism of Hamas to such a degree that
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Speaker 2: Hamas thanked them. Consider that. Your government has been praised
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Speaker 2: by one of the most bloodthirsty jihadist outfits in the world.
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Speaker 2: This brings us to another important point from Mike Burgess.
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Speaker 2: As you know, I've shouted from the rafters about the
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Speaker 2: lack of action after this obscenity the day after October
7:21
Speaker 2: the 7th. It's a day of courage!
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Speaker 3: It's a day of happiness!
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Speaker 1: It's a day of pride!
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Speaker 3: It's a day of victory!
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Speaker 1: This is the day we've been waiting for!
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Speaker 2: And I've done the same about the inaction following these
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Speaker 2: horrific scenes the following night at our most famous landmark
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Speaker 2: that shamed us right around the world. And I've argued
8:04
Speaker 2: that police should have targeted people waving Islamist terrorist emblems
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Speaker 2: and flags or chanting hateful slogans or glorifying Islamist terrorist
8:14
Speaker 2: leaders in protest after protest, many of which have been
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Speaker 2: joined by Labor Party members and which have even been
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Speaker 2: described as peaceful by our Prime Minister. Well, the ASIO
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Speaker 2: boss has put this rising tide of hatred into context
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Speaker 2: for us. Again, quoted from the book Bondi Terror by
8:33
Speaker 2: Shari Markson and Alex Rivchen, Burgess refers to this climate.
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Speaker 2: I was concerned about this and concerned about behaviours being normalised,
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Speaker 2: he said. Those behaviours being normalised raised the temperature, which
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Speaker 2: increased the permission for politically motivated violence, and sadly we
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Speaker 2: saw that. From threatening, intimidating behaviour through to direct targeting
8:58
Speaker 2: of people, businesses and places of worship, through to killings
9:03
Speaker 2: of Jewish Australians. Yes, tragically, we have all seen this.
9:09
Speaker 2: And all the indications and warnings from security agencies tells
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Speaker 2: us that we will see more. It's a threat to
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Speaker 2: all Australians. It's a task for all Australians. But we
9:23
Speaker 2: have a Prime Minister who is too weak to even
9:26
Speaker 2: front up and have his role and response examined. This
9:31
Speaker 2: shows a dangerous lack of responsibility and accountability. This is shameful.
9:44
Speaker 2: I want to show you a classic example of social
9:47
Speaker 2: media outrage, virtue signalling, and how this leads to people
9:51
Speaker 2: jumping to conclusions and seeking to condemn or cancel others
9:55
Speaker 2: before knowing the actual facts. It relates to footy, and
9:58
Speaker 2: wasn't it a great week? of footy, both for the
10:02
Speaker 2: Sydney Swans, of course, and my beloved Adelaide Crows? But
10:06
Speaker 2: have a look at how the fun of footy was
10:08
Speaker 2: turned into ugly identity politics on Saturday night. A Carlton
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Speaker 2: cheer squad post accused this Adelaide cheer squad member of
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Speaker 2: wearing blackface and said... What the F? Social media being
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Speaker 2: what it is, this created a storm instantly and internationally
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Speaker 2: before anybody actually bothered to check. What the tight shots
10:32
Speaker 2: failed to convey was that this 59-year-old woman, clearly a
10:36
Speaker 2: die-hard fan, was dressed as a crow. In fact, as
10:41
Speaker 2: Claude Crow, the club's mascot. And good on her. It
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Speaker 2: all adds to the fun of the occasions. So what,
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Speaker 2: no-one can dress up in fancy dress now if the
10:51
Speaker 2: animal or object is black? What a joke. And to
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Speaker 2: anyone who joined the pylon, the social media pylon, grow
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Speaker 2: up and use your brains. The average crow shows more
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Speaker 2: smarts than that. But this is a salient lesson. Half
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Speaker 2: the world now jumps to conclusions about issues as diverse
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Speaker 2: as the war in Gaza, serious allegations against individuals or
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Speaker 2: a bird costume dress-up at a footy match. based only
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Speaker 2: on snippets of information often taken out of context and
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Speaker 2: never the full story. It's only a crow costume at
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Speaker 2: the footy, but it tells us plenty about how lies
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Speaker 2: and hatred spread like wildfire in our digital world. Let's
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Speaker 2: go to Canberra now, where Parliament is back sitting today.
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Speaker 2: Shadow Energy Minister Dan Tehan joins us. Dan, thanks for
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Speaker 2: joining us. First up, I want to get your thoughts
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Speaker 2: on those stories Comments from the ASIO Director-General, Mike Burgess,
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Speaker 2: revealed in Shari Markson and Alex Rivchen's book. He said
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Speaker 2: he warned. He said others needed to do more based
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Speaker 2: on his warnings.
12:01
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely chilling, Chris. And I think you're absolutely right
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Speaker 4: in your introduction. It's now time for the Prime Minister
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Speaker 4: to step up. We need to hear from the Prime
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Speaker 4: Minister and I hope that he will come forward and say, yes,
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Speaker 4: I'm happy to appear at the Royal Commission.
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Speaker 5: I'm happy to.
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Speaker 4: Give my version of what my government was doing and
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Speaker 4: wasn't doing and also what my government did or didn't
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Speaker 4: do about those warnings. And, you know, it's no good
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Speaker 4: if he has, and who knows, done something secret in.
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Speaker 5: Camera at the Royal Commission. That's not good enough.
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Speaker 4: We need to hear from the Prime Minister publicly at
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Speaker 4: the Royal Commission as to what his government did or
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Speaker 4: didn't do. This was the worst terrorist attack ever on
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Speaker 4: Australian soil. And the fact that the government has hidden...
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Speaker 4: from this Royal Commission up until this stage is an
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Speaker 4: absolute disgrace.
13:07
Speaker 2: Let's go on to some of the political issues that
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Speaker 2: dominated in Canberra today. One is the One Nation plan
13:13
Speaker 2: to allow people to get more access to their super
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Speaker 2: in a cost-of-living crisis. Now, you opened, that is, the
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Speaker 2: Coalition opened the door to this sort of policy at
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Speaker 2: the last election when Peter Dutton said people could access
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Speaker 2: their super to help get a home deposit.
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Speaker 6: Here he is.
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Speaker 4: We will allow Australians to access up to.
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Speaker 6: $ 50, 000 of their super towards a deposit for their first home.
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Speaker 7: That allows home ownership earlier.
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Speaker 2: It is our money. We should be entitled to choose
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Speaker 2: how to use it. Is Pauline Hanson right with her
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Speaker 2: plan to allow access week by week to cover the
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Speaker 2: cost of living crisis?
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Speaker 4: Well, look, we took our policy to the last election and.
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Speaker 5: We thought it was a very good policy.
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Speaker 4: And, look, I'm not saying we might make adjustments for
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Speaker 4: the next election, but why.
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Speaker 5: We thought it was a very good policy.
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Speaker 4: If you invested in an asset like your home, that
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Speaker 4: could grow along the same lines that a super balance would.
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Speaker 4: And we didn't think it would be inflationary. Now, I
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Speaker 4: haven't seen the detail around.
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Speaker 5: The One Nation policy.
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Speaker 4: What the potential impact it might have on inflation, what
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Speaker 4: it would potentially mean for a nest egg in your
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Speaker 4: super balance versus what you might use.
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Speaker 5: The money for.
14:36
Speaker 4: But the idea that you should have some control over
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Speaker 4: your super money is one that we took to the
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Speaker 4: last election. I've got to say one that personally I
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Speaker 4: believe in, and I think especially if you tie it
14:50
Speaker 4: to investing in an asset which can grow like your
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Speaker 4: house and it enables you to get into your first home.
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Speaker 4: I think it's an excellent idea and, you know, my
15:00
Speaker 4: hope is that we'll be able to do something along.
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Speaker 5: Those lines leading into the next election as well.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought it was a good and sensible policy
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Speaker 2: at the time. I thought your problem was you only
15:11
Speaker 2: rolled it out in the last week of the campaign.
15:12
Speaker 2: It should have been promoted right throughout the campaign. We'll
15:15
Speaker 2: see what happens there. But the housing debate dominated in
15:18
Speaker 2: Parliament again today. You were criticising Labor over the housing
15:23
Speaker 2: shortages we've got and obviously the number of people going into...
15:27
Speaker 2: into mortgage stress. But Clare O'Neill, the Housing Minister, she
15:31
Speaker 2: seems to talk about it as if everything's going hunky-dory
15:34
Speaker 2: out there in the world.
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Speaker 6: Here she is.
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Speaker 8: House prices are softening across the country, Speaker. This is
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Speaker 8: the fourth time that we have seen this occur.
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Speaker 2: In a decade in our country.
15:45
Speaker 8: Now, I'm asked about the role that the tax changes
15:48
Speaker 8: have played in this, and, Speaker, the government could not
15:50
Speaker 8: have been more transparent about this in the federal budget.
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Speaker 2: We've got drastic drops in major cities. The banks are
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Speaker 2: calling this a major correction, and she says it's happened
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Speaker 2: four times in the last decade. Is that true?
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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, it's hard not to... I mean, it's
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Speaker 4: a serious issue. People are saying wealth, which they've invested
16:12
Speaker 4: into their own home, disappear before their eyes, and she's
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Speaker 4: saying there's nothing to see here and the government's been
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Speaker 4: perfectly transparent. The question we asked before that.
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Speaker 5: Was, release the modelling.
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Speaker 4: which showed that there would only be a minor fall
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Speaker 4: in housing prices of 2% and that there wasn't anything
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Speaker 4: to see here.
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Speaker 6: Well, actually, they didn't say a minor fall.
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Speaker 2: They said 2% less growth. 2% less growth, exactly.
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Speaker 4: And the Prime Minister was asked, well, you know, release
16:43
Speaker 4: the modelling. You've got to remember, the Prime Minister said
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Speaker 4: he was going to let the Australian sun shine in
16:50
Speaker 4: to the Parliament because he accused the Morrison.
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Speaker 5: Government of not being transparent.
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Speaker 4: So here he was being asked, OK, release the modelling,
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Speaker 4: would not answer the question.
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Speaker 9: No.
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Speaker 4: Claire O'Neill wouldn't back the modelling. I mean, the whole
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Speaker 4: thing is a complete and utter mess. They have played
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Speaker 4: with the housing market, where so many Australians have so
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Speaker 4: much of their hard-earned income invested, and now it's a
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Speaker 4: complete and utter train wreck.
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Speaker 5: And Claire O'Neill has no idea.
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Speaker 4: The Prime Minister won't be transparent about about what's about
17:24
Speaker 4: to unfold.
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Speaker 5: And what I'm hearing is that we're.
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Speaker 4: About to see serious layoffs in the real estate sector now.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's already..... because there isn't... 200 jobs in construction
17:35
Speaker 2: went today. We'll get back onto that later. Let's hope
17:37
Speaker 2: the modelling wasn't done with Ooshies instead of real houses.
17:41
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Dan Tehan, there. Dan Teehan, the
17:45
Speaker 2: Shadow Energy Minister. I'm going to get to my next guest,
17:47
Speaker 2: who is a Middle East expert with uncommon clarity and expertise.
17:51
Speaker 2: Born in Melbourne and educated at Melbourne University, Mark Regev
17:54
Speaker 2: has built a career in Israeli diplomacy as the international
17:58
Speaker 2: affairs spokesman and advisor to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in
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Speaker 2: the past. and serving for four years as Israel's ambassador
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Speaker 2: in London. He's in Australia at the moment and I
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Speaker 2: asked him to explain the difficulties of advocating for Israel
18:13
Speaker 2: in the current climate. How do you unconvince people who
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Speaker 2: have been fed constant lies about Israel engaging in genocide,
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Speaker 2: targeting civilians, murdering children and even starving people in Gaza?
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Speaker 6: Well, the truth is it can be very difficult. It
18:30
Speaker 6: can be very difficult indeed. And you've got to understand
18:33
Speaker 6: two factors.
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Speaker 7: That make it an uphill struggle to make the case
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Speaker 7: for my country, which is ultimately, as you know, the
18:39
Speaker 7: only democracy in the Middle East. Problem number one is
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Speaker 7: all the footage coming out of Gaza is Hamas talking points.
18:48
Speaker 7: There's no free, independent civil society under the Hamas dictatorship.
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Speaker 7: Journalists who want to stay alive and stay healthy and
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Speaker 7: keep their jobs need help. to take pictures of things
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Speaker 7: that Hamas wants you to take pictures of.
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Speaker 6: And if they don't take pictures of.
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Speaker 7: That, if they take pictures of other things, they won't
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Speaker 7: be able to do their job the next day. And
19:05
Speaker 7: so all the information coming out of Gaza is Hamas
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Speaker 7: talking points. And I don't think that's explained sufficiently to
19:12
Speaker 7: the viewing public. And so, you know, we've all seen
19:14
Speaker 7: pictures of innocent children killed by Israeli airstrikes, but we
19:18
Speaker 7: don't know if that's true. It could be they could
19:19
Speaker 7: have been killed in a different way. We don't know
19:21
Speaker 7: when they were killed. We don't know what happened. We
19:23
Speaker 7: don't know if it was Hamas ordinance.
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Speaker 6: It's always.
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Speaker 7: In the visual and news images coming out of Gaza,
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Speaker 7: it's all Hamas talking points. That's the first problem. And
19:32
Speaker 7: that's what people are seeing. Number two, Israel has a
19:35
Speaker 7: little problem, I say that very sarcastically, with United Nations
19:40
Speaker 7: organisations on the ground in Gaza, which similarly echo Hamas's
19:44
Speaker 7: talking points. And when you're up against the United Nations,
19:47
Speaker 7: which has this cachet of moral authority, of the moral
19:51
Speaker 7: conscience of humanity, you can't win no matter what you say.
19:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I would suggest that's echoed unquestioningly by the media,
19:58
Speaker 2: such as the public broadcasters in Australia and the UK,
20:01
Speaker 2: Sky News UK. Most of the Western liberal media, they
20:05
Speaker 2: know the doubts about a lot of the information coming
20:09
Speaker 2: out of Gaza, but they still repeat Hamas propaganda, which
20:13
Speaker 2: leads me to the question then of whether Israel can
20:16
Speaker 2: ever regain its reputation and have support for workable solutions...
20:21
Speaker 2: when there is so much propaganda that's fuelled by, yeah,
20:23
Speaker 2: political activists, but also pop stars and popular figures, but
20:29
Speaker 2: also leading politicians, even the leadership of our own country
20:32
Speaker 2: here in Australia, which is added to the demonisation of Israel?
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Speaker 7: So, I'll give you a path forward. It's not a
20:39
Speaker 7: perfect solution, but I think it's a good way to
20:41
Speaker 7: go forward. We are busy in Israel concentrating on making
20:46
Speaker 7: peace with more and more of our neighbours. You know,
20:48
Speaker 7: I visited Israel the first time as a young guy
20:50
Speaker 7: from Melbourne, a teenager, and we didn't have a single
20:54
Speaker 7: peace treaty with any Arab country.
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Speaker 6: None.
20:57
Speaker 7: Then, since then, in my lifetime, we've made peace with Egypt,
21:02
Speaker 7: with Jordan, with the United Arab Emirates, with Morocco, with Bahrain,
21:08
Speaker 7: and we can make peace with more. And as we
21:10
Speaker 7: make peace with more and more Arab countries, and people
21:12
Speaker 7: have talked about Saudi Arabia, people have talked about a
21:15
Speaker 7: breakthrough with Indonesia, there could well be a breakthrough with Lebanon.
21:18
Speaker 7: I would ask you, Chris, can Australians be more anti-Israel
21:23
Speaker 7: than the Arabs themselves? In the Arab world, which is
21:25
Speaker 7: increasingly open to Israel, increasingly willing to accept Israel as
21:30
Speaker 7: a legitimate part of the region, they want to cooperate
21:32
Speaker 7: with Israel, they want to be friends with Israel, they
21:35
Speaker 7: want to enjoy a good relationship with Israel. Can people
21:38
Speaker 7: in this country, in Australia, be more critical of Israel
21:42
Speaker 7: than the Arabs?
21:43
Speaker 2: That's such a good way of expressing it. Now, of course,
21:45
Speaker 2: Donald Trump's played a role in this through the Abraham Accords.
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Speaker 2: In fact, we believe that one of the key factors
21:51
Speaker 2: in the timing of the October 7 atrocities was that
21:55
Speaker 2: there was a looming deal between Saudi Arabia and Israel
21:59
Speaker 2: to bring the Saudis into the Abraham Accords. Is that
22:03
Speaker 2: a possibility still?
22:05
Speaker 7: Yes, and I'd like to take your point. It's a
22:08
Speaker 7: good point there, because we know from intelligence... that one
22:12
Speaker 7: of the motivating factors, one of the motivating factors, that
22:15
Speaker 7: Hamas decided to cross the border, attack our people, massacre
22:18
Speaker 7: our civilians, right? They did that because they wanted to
22:21
Speaker 7: stifle the chance of a breakthrough between Israel and Saudi Arabia.
22:25
Speaker 6: And the reason for them being.
22:27
Speaker 7: So upset about it is Saudi Arabia has this special
22:29
Speaker 7: status both in the Arab world and in the larger
22:32
Speaker 7: Islamic world because there are the Muslim holy sites on
22:36
Speaker 7: Saudi soil and they're the custodians of those sites of
22:39
Speaker 7: Mecca and Medina. And so for Hamas's point of view,
22:42
Speaker 7: a breakthrough with Israel, between Israel and Saudi Arabia, that
22:46
Speaker 7: would be their worst nightmare. But I can assure Hamas
22:50
Speaker 7: and anyone watching this program, there will be a breakthrough
22:53
Speaker 7: between Israel and Saudi Arabia because it's in Israel's interest
22:56
Speaker 7: to do so, it's in Saudi Arabia's interest to do so,
22:59
Speaker 7: and it's in the American interest.
23:00
Speaker 6: To help us get that deal.
23:02
Speaker 2: Is it imminent?
23:04
Speaker 7: I can't say imminent because I don't know. In Saudi Arabia,
23:07
Speaker 7: they've got a monarchy... The Crown Prince calls the shots.
23:10
Speaker 7: You don't see large public debates on a lot of issues.
23:13
Speaker 7: I know in September 23, just before the massacre, he
23:17
Speaker 7: was publicly talking about a.
23:19
Speaker 6: Breakthrough with Israel.
23:21
Speaker 7: I think now that the fighting is dying down in Gaza,
23:24
Speaker 7: that the dust is settling, we're getting back on track.
23:27
Speaker 7: If it takes a year or two years or just
23:29
Speaker 7: a few months, I don't know. I know that Trump
23:31
Speaker 7: has said he wants to do it. And Trump is
23:33
Speaker 7: only going to be president of the United States for
23:35
Speaker 7: another two and a half years.
23:37
Speaker 2: Can the Australia-Israel relationship be repaired under this government?
23:43
Speaker 6: So I think a lot of Israelis are disappointed.
23:47
Speaker 7: We remember a time when Australia was one of our
23:50
Speaker 7: closest partners on the planet. You know, going back to
23:53
Speaker 7: the Second World War, Israelis remember the diggers who fought
23:59
Speaker 7: against the Nazis in the Middle East. I don't know,
24:01
Speaker 7: are you old enough to remember Moshe Dayan, the famous
24:04
Speaker 7: Israeli general.
24:04
Speaker 6: With the eye patch?
24:05
Speaker 3: Yes.
24:06
Speaker 7: He lost his eye fighting with Australians against the pro-Nazi
24:10
Speaker 7: Vichy French in Lebanon. We have a history that goes back,
24:14
Speaker 7: and when Israel is a newly independent state, Australia, the
24:17
Speaker 7: United Nations, is one of Israel's best friends, helping us
24:20
Speaker 7: get membership into the United Nations in those early years
24:24
Speaker 7: when everyone was optimistic about that international organisation.
24:28
Speaker 6: And I think that That.
24:29
Speaker 7: Hurts a lot of Israelis that someone who was once
24:32
Speaker 7: such a close friend has moved away.
24:35
Speaker 2: One of the great counterfactuals at the moment for people
24:38
Speaker 2: who don't understand exactly what's been going on in the
24:41
Speaker 2: Middle East is in this time of war, warfare and
24:45
Speaker 2: bloodshed on many fronts, of so much propaganda against Israel,
24:50
Speaker 2: so much diplomatic effort against Israel, that because you've had
24:55
Speaker 2: the wars against Hamas, the Houthis, Hezbollah and Iran and
25:00
Speaker 2: debilitated to some degree or to a high degree all
25:03
Speaker 2: of those enemies, Israel is probably more secure militarily now
25:08
Speaker 2: than it ever has been. Is that the case?
25:11
Speaker 6: Yes, but I take your question and I'd make it larger.
25:14
Speaker 6: It's not only.
25:15
Speaker 7: Israel's more secure, the West is more secure. Western democracies
25:19
Speaker 7: are more secure. The chancellor of Germany, when we attacked
25:24
Speaker 7: Iran last year to take out its nuclear program, he
25:27
Speaker 7: said that Israel is doing the dirty work for the
25:29
Speaker 7: entire West.
25:31
Speaker 6: And that's the truth.
25:32
Speaker 7: Iran with a nuclear weapon doesn't just threaten Israel. It
25:35
Speaker 7: doesn't just threaten Iran's Arab neighbors. Iran with a nuclear
25:38
Speaker 7: weapon threatens the world.
25:41
Speaker 6: Look at North Korea.
25:42
Speaker 7: With a nuclear weapon and all the instability that it
25:44
Speaker 7: can cause in the Pacific and in Eastern Asia. Iran
25:48
Speaker 7: with a nuclear weapon is 50 times the threat that
25:52
Speaker 7: North Korea is. North Korea is, you know, no one
25:55
Speaker 7: believes in the ideology of the regime. It's a regional bully.
25:59
Speaker 7: The Iranians are on a mission. Their mission is exporting
26:02
Speaker 7: what they call the Islamic revolution. Kissinger famously said the
26:06
Speaker 7: problem with Iran is it's not a country, it's a cause.
26:09
Speaker 7: The mullahs who brutally massacred their own people just earlier
26:13
Speaker 7: this year The estimates are between 30,000 and 40,000 Iranian
26:18
Speaker 7: civilians were gunned down by this terrible regime that has
26:22
Speaker 7: no respect for the life of its own people.
26:25
Speaker 6: Do we really want them to have a nuclear weapon?
26:27
Speaker 2: This is such a key point, Mark. It's why I'm
26:30
Speaker 2: so pleased to have you on. Such a key point.
26:32
Speaker 2: As you know, I understand that Israel is fighting a
26:34
Speaker 2: war that is crucial for all of Western civilisation, and
26:38
Speaker 2: that's how you've outlined it. The key is to get
26:40
Speaker 2: the rest of the West to understand that.
26:44
Speaker 7: Well, it's sometimes difficult, as you said in your first
26:46
Speaker 7: question to me. There's a concept which I'm sure you've
26:49
Speaker 7: read in Marxism. It's called false consciousness. People can have
26:53
Speaker 7: false consciousness. They don't understand where their true interests are.
26:56
Speaker 7: And I would argue the real interests of all Western
27:00
Speaker 7: democracies are to stand behind Israel. Look, we're defending ourselves.
27:03
Speaker 7: We're looking after our own interests. But in so doing,
27:06
Speaker 7: I firmly believe that we're standing up for the whole
27:08
Speaker 7: Western world against these terrible extremist dictatorships.
27:12
Speaker 6: Like the Iranian government.
27:13
Speaker 7: Iran with nuclear weapons is not just a problem for Israel,
27:17
Speaker 7: it's a problem for the world.
27:18
Speaker 6: It's a problem for Australia too.
27:21
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining us, Mark. I appreciate it.
27:24
Speaker 6: Pleasure.
27:26
Speaker 2: Mark Gregev there, speaking to us from Canberra. Don't you
27:30
Speaker 2: wish the whole country could listen to him for 10
27:33
Speaker 2: or 15 minutes so they can get some clarity about
27:35
Speaker 2: what's really going on?
27:37
Speaker 3: We're going to get to a break.
27:38
Speaker 2: On the other side, in the week that we're commemorating
27:40
Speaker 2: 25 years since 9-11, John Howard joins me to talk
27:44
Speaker 2: about that fateful day, Islamist extremism and the ongoing battles.
27:54
Speaker 2: This week we mark the 25th anniversary of the 9-11
27:58
Speaker 2: Islamist terrorist attack against the United States. The attack killed
28:02
Speaker 2: almost 3,000 people on September 11, 2001, and it shocked
28:07
Speaker 2: the world, then changed it forever. Ten Australians were killed
28:12
Speaker 2: that day. Those of us who were adults at the
28:15
Speaker 2: time will never forget the horror and uncertainty it delivered.
28:19
Speaker 2: Our Prime Minister, John Howard, was in Washington at the
28:22
Speaker 2: time preparing to meet US President George W Bush and
28:26
Speaker 2: address Congress in coming days when one of those hijacked
28:30
Speaker 2: jets ploughed into the Pentagon. I caught up with Mr
28:34
Speaker 2: Howard last week to discuss this anniversary and began by
28:37
Speaker 2: asking him to reflect on his fears as it unfolded.
28:42
Speaker 3: Well, I was shocked. I didn't know what it meant.
28:46
Speaker 3: There were all sorts of theories. One of them was...
28:49
Speaker 3: had currency immediately was that this is the beginning of
28:52
Speaker 3: a chain reaction. Start on America and the next would
28:56
Speaker 3: be London, Paris, Tokyo, Sydney. You didn't know. And that
29:02
Speaker 3: was there for a long time. And, of course, you
29:04
Speaker 3: have to understand that the Americans were absolutely shell-shocked by this.
29:11
Speaker 3: And you can understand why. I mean, they're a very
29:13
Speaker 3: powerful country. And despite that power and that overwhelming predominance,
29:19
Speaker 3: America is a very vulnerable country psychologically. It feels that
29:24
Speaker 3: it's unwanted. It's a bit of an outcast. And that
29:28
Speaker 3: is why the immediate assurances of support and brotherhood or comradeship,
29:34
Speaker 3: if I can use some leftist typing, that I offered
29:37
Speaker 3: because I was there on the ground, were so valuable.
29:41
Speaker 3: But I can't capture the right words to say how
29:45
Speaker 3: bewildered people were with what had happened. It's something they
29:48
Speaker 3: hadn't prepared for. And I was impressed, though, with the calm,
29:54
Speaker 3: methodical way they did go about responding. And They were
29:58
Speaker 3: very helpful to me. My wife and our eldest son, Tim,
30:03
Speaker 3: who'd come over to see me address a joint sitting
30:06
Speaker 3: of the Congress, which of course didn't materialise for another year,
30:11
Speaker 3: they were on the way to the Pentagon.
30:14
Speaker 2: Wow.
30:15
Speaker 3: And when we first heard about it and they were
30:18
Speaker 3: retrieved and they joined me in the bunker under the
30:20
Speaker 3: Australian Embassy and it was there that I had my
30:23
Speaker 3: first news conference and I read a letter I'd sent
30:27
Speaker 3: to the President, who I'd met in person for the
30:31
Speaker 3: first time the day before.
30:33
Speaker 6: Extraordinary.
30:34
Speaker 2: I want to come back to that fellowship between our
30:37
Speaker 2: two nations in a moment. But first off, in those
30:40
Speaker 2: early hours and early days, obviously you feared for yourself
30:43
Speaker 2: and your family, as you've intimated, but you must have
30:46
Speaker 2: feared for the US and even Australia at that moment.
30:50
Speaker 9: Oh, I did.
30:50
Speaker 3: I worried like any other... sensible person would, whether you're
30:55
Speaker 3: in government or not. You worry something so monstrously unprovoked,
31:03
Speaker 3: gratuitous and outrageous, carried with clinical precision. I mean, a
31:08
Speaker 3: couple of hardheads on terrorism said to me, gee, you know,
31:12
Speaker 3: they're bastards, but they've done it well. And that's what
31:17
Speaker 3: really horrified me.
31:19
Speaker 2: It was extraordinary. Now, You invoked the ANZUS Treaty. I
31:23
Speaker 2: suppose everybody in Australia thought if that was ever invoked,
31:26
Speaker 2: it would be for America to come to our aid.
31:29
Speaker 2: Tell us how and why you invoked the treaty.
31:31
Speaker 3: Well, the person who first suggested it was Alexander Downer.
31:35
Speaker 3: The Americans were kind enough to make available Air Force
31:39
Speaker 3: Two to carry me and my party from Washington to
31:43
Speaker 3: Hawaii because I had to get back to Australia. And
31:46
Speaker 3: on the plane, I had a lengthy telephone conversation with Downer.
31:50
Speaker 3: He was in. in Canberra or Adelaide, and he suggested
31:55
Speaker 3: in the course of that conversation that we should invoke answers. Now,
31:59
Speaker 3: that's part of the treaty, but as you rightly suggest,
32:04
Speaker 3: most people thought it would be America coming to the
32:08
Speaker 3: aid of Australia or New Zealand, not the other way
32:11
Speaker 3: around now. Of course America didn't, in logistic terms, need
32:18
Speaker 3: our help, but gee, It was psychologically very valuable. And
32:23
Speaker 3: it was a clear demonstration that we're in this with you.
32:27
Speaker 3: And that mattered to the Americans. It mattered a great deal.
32:31
Speaker 2: Let me go on a sidebar then, because 25 years later,
32:34
Speaker 2: we have the AUKUS agreement, an expansion of ANZUS, really.
32:39
Speaker 2: Very important for Australia to have access to UK and
32:42
Speaker 2: US missile and nuclear submarine technology. Presumably you support that
32:47
Speaker 2: deepening of the treaty. But do you think we'll ever
32:51
Speaker 2: build nuclear submarines in Australia?
32:53
Speaker 3: I'm optimistic we will. I mean, I'm not a technician.
32:56
Speaker 3: I think we will. I think the government will is there.
33:01
Speaker 3: And what's good about it is that so far it's
33:04
Speaker 3: bipartisan in this country. And I'm not a cheerleader for
33:10
Speaker 3: the current Prime Minister of Australia, but I'll give you
33:13
Speaker 3: marks on this. He's... remained strong in support of AUKUS,
33:19
Speaker 3: as has the Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister. And
33:22
Speaker 3: what we've got to understand in the context of 9-11
33:26
Speaker 3: is that one of the reasons we have AUKUS is
33:31
Speaker 3: that we've been a strong, not uncritical, but faithful ally
33:37
Speaker 3: of the United States through all those years. We were
33:40
Speaker 3: one of the few countries, of course, that firmly planted
33:43
Speaker 3: a flag in the ground and provided ground troops, a
33:47
Speaker 3: whole combat battalion in Vietnam and, of course, we joined
33:52
Speaker 3: America in Afghanistan and Iraq.
33:55
Speaker 2: Well, if you talk about the consequences of 9-11 and
33:59
Speaker 2: where it led us, 25 years ago you'd be very
34:03
Speaker 2: well aware of the debate that was happening then. You
34:05
Speaker 2: had Francis Fukuyama's book, the end of history, saying that
34:09
Speaker 2: the Western liberal democratic model had won and that's the
34:13
Speaker 2: end of history. But you had Samuel Huntington saying that
34:16
Speaker 2: the new battles would be along ethno and religious grounds,
34:19
Speaker 2: the clash of civilisations. As it's turned out, and when
34:22
Speaker 2: we look at what's happening in the Middle East and
34:24
Speaker 2: around the world now, Huntington was right, wasn't he? The
34:27
Speaker 2: clash of civilisations is what troubles us.
34:31
Speaker 3: Oh, he said he is. He was. They were both
34:35
Speaker 3: right up to a point. And nobody is ever completely
34:38
Speaker 3: right with these things, but we are grappling with the
34:43
Speaker 3: threat of Islamic extremism. And there's no point in mincing
34:47
Speaker 3: words about this. Extremism expressed through religious or philosophical beliefs
34:56
Speaker 3: is always a terrible threat. And there are people who
35:00
Speaker 3: are fanatics and Australians legitimately worry about them. Now, that
35:05
Speaker 3: doesn't mean everybody who prays to Allah and everybody who's
35:09
Speaker 3: Muslim is a threat. No, definitely not. I mean, there
35:13
Speaker 3: are many thousands of Australian citizens of the Islamic faith
35:18
Speaker 3: who are good citizens, as the rest of us are,
35:21
Speaker 3: but there are some who aren't. And what we have
35:23
Speaker 3: to worry about is that part of the doctrine of
35:26
Speaker 3: these people is a hatred of the West.
35:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, after 9-11, of course, we had the Bali bombings
35:32
Speaker 2: that killed so many Australians. We had the Australian embassy
35:35
Speaker 2: bombed in Jakarta. We had Australians killed in terrorist attacks
35:39
Speaker 2: in the Middle East, in Europe, in London. And, of course,
35:42
Speaker 2: we had terror attacks at home. But building, of course,
35:45
Speaker 2: to the worst ever in Australia last December, this combating
35:51
Speaker 2: of Islamist extremism was a constant... theme, I suppose, of
35:55
Speaker 2: your prime ministership. Does it distress you that we're still
35:59
Speaker 2: fighting that battle now?
36:01
Speaker 3: Well, it distresses me, but it doesn't surprise me, because
36:05
Speaker 3: once you had time to reflect on the audacity and
36:09
Speaker 3: the planning and learnt about the systematic way in which
36:14
Speaker 3: the terrorists had gone about planning 9-11, you had to
36:17
Speaker 3: accept that it was an ongoing threat.
36:22
Speaker 4: And.
36:24
Speaker 3: Of course, it is the reason why we're having this discussion,
36:30
Speaker 3: why 25 years celebration is the wrong word. Commemoration of
36:38
Speaker 3: that terrible attack in Washington and New York is so important.
36:43
Speaker 2: I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you.
36:46
Speaker 6: And the people.
36:51
Speaker 3: And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear
36:55
Speaker 3: all of us soon. CHEERING USA!
37:05
Speaker 8: USA!
37:06
Speaker 2: USA! USA! You became very close to George Bush in
37:11
Speaker 2: more than a political sense as an ally, but as
37:13
Speaker 2: a friend. Are you still in touch with him? Oh, yes.
37:15
Speaker 3: We will probably talk again in the next few weeks about.
37:21
Speaker 3: We became good friends. I liked him a lot. And
37:24
Speaker 3: I thought he was a good president. And I thought
37:28
Speaker 3: the fact that he didn't carry on. If you had
37:32
Speaker 3: a meeting with George Bush, a formal meeting, there was
37:35
Speaker 3: no nonsense. He didn't have masses of paper around him.
37:38
Speaker 3: He didn't have a set of talking points. He knew
37:42
Speaker 3: what he wanted to say. And he said it very
37:44
Speaker 3: directly and very plainly. And Jeanette and I got to
37:49
Speaker 3: know both of them, he and his wife Lauren.
37:51
Speaker 2: Mr Howard, thanks so much for sharing your recollections. It's
37:54
Speaker 2: a momentous anniversary and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts
37:58
Speaker 2: with us.
37:58
Speaker 3: Well, it is momentous and it was a very sad occasion.
38:05
Speaker 3: There were 3,000 people, some, what, 20-odd Australians?
38:09
Speaker 2: Ten Australians, I believe.
38:10
Speaker 3: It died there and it arrived to a shocked world
38:15
Speaker 3: which remains shaken and still in many ways is experiencing
38:20
Speaker 3: the aftershocks.
38:22
Speaker 2: Quite literally out of the clear blue sky.
38:24
Speaker 5: It was.
38:26
Speaker 3: Quite literally out of the clear blue sky. I mean,
38:29
Speaker 3: it's an old saying, but, gee, it's relevant to this.
38:34
Speaker 2: Thanks, Mr Hart.
38:35
Speaker 3: Pleasure.
38:38
Speaker 2: It's always a great pleasure to interview John Howard and
38:42
Speaker 2: you'll be hearing a lot more about 9-11. as we
38:45
Speaker 2: move towards that anniversary this Friday. We'll go to a
38:49
Speaker 2: break again. And in the UK, the illegal immigration crisis
38:53
Speaker 2: has reached another flashpoint. We'll cross live to Sophie Ellsworth.
39:02
Speaker 2: We're seeing tension again in the UK over illegal migration
39:06
Speaker 2: after another 140 asylum seekers turned up in what they
39:10
Speaker 2: call a mega dinghy that arrived in Portsmouth. Protesters descended
39:15
Speaker 2: on the area, clashing with police. Get back! Get back!
39:20
Speaker 5: Get back!
39:21
Speaker 3: Get back! Get back! Get back! Get back! Get back!
39:32
Speaker 2: Let's go to News Corp Europe correspondent and News 24
39:35
Speaker 2: contributor Sophie Ellsworth.
39:36
Speaker 3: Sophie.
39:37
Speaker 2: Good to talk to you. This stuff is just... We've
39:40
Speaker 2: seen this movie before. It's just terrible for the UK.
39:45
Speaker 2: They need to turn boats back, as Australia has done
39:48
Speaker 2: in the past. Obviously, this Rwanda initiative never went anywhere.
39:52
Speaker 2: Why can't they just push them back to France or
39:55
Speaker 2: Spain or wherever they're setting out from?
39:59
Speaker 10: Well, Chris, this is the question I keep asking politicians
40:02
Speaker 10: here in the UK when I speak to them. And
40:06
Speaker 10: obviously not in the government they're saying this, but in
40:08
Speaker 10: the opposing parties they're saying because there is not the
40:11
Speaker 10: political will to do so. Now, these scenes that we
40:16
Speaker 10: saw across the weekend and last night are quite extraordinary.
40:20
Speaker 10: The protests last night are in Portsmouth, Chris, which is
40:23
Speaker 10: the home to the Royal Navy here in the UK.
40:27
Speaker 10: And interestingly, now we're seeing mega dinghies come into the UK.
40:31
Speaker 10: They used to have dinghies with 30 or 40 asylum seekers.
40:35
Speaker 10: Now they're coming with sometimes up to 150 or more.
40:39
Speaker 10: So we saw these clashes last night. This has hit
40:42
Speaker 10: fever pitch in the UK. And there's a front page
40:46
Speaker 10: story today, Chris, on the Times of London. saying just 1%
40:51
Speaker 10: of asylum seekers coming in have legitimate claims. This is very,
40:56
Speaker 10: very concerning for Britain and something that Prime Minister Andy
41:00
Speaker 10: Burnham needs to get on top of.
41:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, now an election's a long way off, but Nigel
41:05
Speaker 2: Farage and Reform are campaigning strongly on this. Have a look.
41:10
Speaker 1: You don't pay the trafficker 4,000 euros if you know
41:16
Speaker 1: you're going to finish back on the same strip of
41:17
Speaker 1: sand you started on. I mean, Tony Abbott did this
41:20
Speaker 1: in Australia. He broke the model. The gangs were coming
41:24
Speaker 1: from Indonesia.
41:25
Speaker 2: He broke the model.
41:26
Speaker 5: Within two weeks, the boat stopped.
41:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a pretty clear message and we know how
41:31
Speaker 2: that's going to resonate and Australia does provide a good example.
41:35
Speaker 2: There are differences, of course, but it is a good
41:36
Speaker 2: example policy-wise. Also from reform, though, Sophie, they've been focused
41:41
Speaker 2: on crime, particularly in the wonderful city you're standing in,
41:45
Speaker 2: in London. Tell us about that.
41:49
Speaker 10: Well, Chris, on the weekend, I was at the Reform
41:51
Speaker 10: UK's conference, annual conference in Birmingham, and I spoke to
41:55
Speaker 10: Reform's candidate for the London mayor role, Layla Cunningham. Now,
42:01
Speaker 10: she's a former criminal prosecutor, and she was saying to
42:05
Speaker 10: me she's absolutely appalled with the state of London. She
42:09
Speaker 10: said crime here is out of control, and she is
42:12
Speaker 10: seeking to knock Sir Sadiq Khan himself. out of his
42:16
Speaker 10: role as mayor in the elections that will be held
42:18
Speaker 10: here in 2028 because she said London isn't the city
42:22
Speaker 10: that it is, Chris. There is crime everywhere and she
42:25
Speaker 10: said you cannot even go to safe areas. Now, she
42:29
Speaker 10: gave one example of in Mayfair, one of the most
42:32
Speaker 10: elaborate and exclusive areas in the city where there was
42:35
Speaker 10: a stabbing last week. So this is happening all across
42:38
Speaker 10: the city and she has vowed if she wins the
42:41
Speaker 10: top job, she will try and put a stop to this.
42:44
Speaker 2: Let's have a quick look at some of that interview.
42:48
Speaker 11: We have what I would only call as a crime epidemic.
42:51
Speaker 11: You know, we have a rape reported every hour. Only 6%
42:54
Speaker 11: of those end up in a charge. We have some
42:56
Speaker 11: of the highest shoplifting. You know, shoplifting is almost a
42:59
Speaker 11: form of shopping. Someone just got stabbed in Mayfair two
43:03
Speaker 11: days ago. You know, Mayfair is one of the most
43:05
Speaker 11: expensive areas.
43:06
Speaker 6: It's a tourist.
43:07
Speaker 11: There was never a stabbing fare before. So my issue
43:10
Speaker 11: with London is that nowhere safe.
43:11
Speaker 3: Of course.
43:12
Speaker 11: When you have a crime epidemic in London, for me,
43:15
Speaker 11: that is broken.
43:17
Speaker 2: Lila Cunningham there, the Reform London mayoral candidate, speaking with
43:21
Speaker 2: Sophie Ellsworth. Sophie, she's going to be a popular candidate
43:24
Speaker 2: with that focus, but people are going to wait till 2028.
43:28
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining us again. Sophie Ellsworth again,
43:32
Speaker 2: live from London. We've got to get to a break. Afterwards,
43:34
Speaker 2: we'll catch up with Gemma Tognini and Caroline DiRusso. We'll
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Speaker 2: talk One Nation, superannuation and your mortgage. Let's get on
43:44
Speaker 2: with it with Gemma Tognini from GT Communications.
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Speaker 3: Hello, my friend.
43:47
Speaker 2: And over in the west, the WA Liberal Party president,
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Speaker 2: Caroline de Russo. Let's start with you, Gemma, because I
43:53
Speaker 2: think I know what Caroline's going to say on this one.
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Speaker 2: Burning the flag. Should this be a criminal offence, as
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Speaker 2: Angus Taylor is suggesting?
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Speaker 9: I actually think it should. I actually think it should.
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Speaker 9: I think there's this slippery slide in this country towards,
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Speaker 9: I'm OK, you're OK, it's all an expression of things.
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Speaker 9: If you don't like this country, don't live here. And
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Speaker 9: I say that as a migrant, as someone whose entire
44:16
Speaker 9: family on boat, I mean, we've all come from somewhere else, obviously,
44:18
Speaker 9: but I'm talking about one generation prior with my dad.
44:21
Speaker 9: Everyone came on a boat after the war with nothing.
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Speaker 9: On my mum's family, it was a little bit less recent,
44:27
Speaker 9: but still. We came to this country because it's a
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Speaker 9: great country, it's a wonderful country, and burning the flag
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Speaker 9: is such a violent act that represents hatred for this country.
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Speaker 2: What if we burn other flags?
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Speaker 9: I don't think burning any flags is a great idea,
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Speaker 9: but it's our flag, it's our nation, it's the country
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Speaker 9: that provides us with a safe existence. Your other... You know,
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Speaker 9: your editorial at the top of the show, notwithstanding. I
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Speaker 9: think it's a terrible thing to do. What the penalty
44:53
Speaker 9: should be... That's a different matter. But I do think
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Speaker 9: it should be criminal. That's my personal view.
44:58
Speaker 2: Well, before I go to you, Cara, here's what Angus
45:00
Speaker 2: Taylor's had to say.
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Speaker 12: People are welcome to make political statements on Australia and
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Speaker 12: they can criticise Australia.
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Speaker 6: All they like, but burning the flag goes a step further.
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Speaker 12: To see it being burnt is unacceptable to most Australians,
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Speaker 12: it's certainly unacceptable to me, and I think it's appropriate
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Speaker 12: that a penalty of up to a year imprisonment is established.
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Speaker 2: Caroline, why is he right and why is now the
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Speaker 2: time to do this?
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Speaker 13: Did I say he was right? Look, I'm actually really vexed.
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Speaker 13: I really struggle with this one, Chris, to be honest,
45:38
Speaker 13: and I don't have a firm position either way, and
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Speaker 13: I know that's really unusual for me to not have
45:43
Speaker 13: a firm position. I haven't been kidnapped, ladies and gentlemen.
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Speaker 3: Everyone can relax.
45:48
Speaker 13: But I do genuinely struggle with this because, as you know,
45:51
Speaker 13: I always tend to lean more towards free speech, more
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Speaker 13: speech than less speech. It does upset me when people
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Speaker 13: are so disrespectful as to burn the flag. And I think,
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Speaker 13: you know, and Gem says it all the time, when
46:06
Speaker 13: people show you who they are, believe them. I am
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Speaker 13: a little concerned on this one either way. Look, honestly, Chris,
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Speaker 13: I don't have a firm view because I do struggle
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Speaker 13: with that freedom of speech. Little golden thread that runs
46:20
Speaker 13: through my body.
46:21
Speaker 2: Quick one.
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Speaker 9: It's just such a violent act and I think Australians
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Speaker 9: as a culture... We don't set fire to stuff when
46:26
Speaker 9: we don't like it. When we want to express ourselves,
46:28
Speaker 9: we don't set fire to stuff. That's my problem with it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's violent and it's insulting, deeply insulting to just
46:34
Speaker 2: about everyone in the country. Let's go to One Nation,
46:36
Speaker 2: who are soaring in the polls at the moment. I
46:39
Speaker 2: interviewed Warren Pickering on this station last week. I think
46:42
Speaker 2: it was their Victorian... obviously a candidate just at the moment,
46:46
Speaker 2: but he's been now at the centre of vile allegations
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Speaker 2: from a former partner accusing him of drug use, among
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Speaker 2: other things. Pickering denies all this. But, Caroline, let's have
46:57
Speaker 2: a listen firstly to what Pauline Hanson has said in
46:59
Speaker 2: response to this.
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Speaker 8: This is a personal matter.
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Speaker 5: We've responded to it and I've got nothing more to
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Speaker 5: say to it.
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Speaker 13: If it was a different political party, wouldn't you identify
47:09
Speaker 13: those kind of personal challenges as something that could affect their.
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Speaker 3: These are allegations.
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Speaker 8: I will not be saying any more about it.
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Speaker 2: Now, Caroline, these are only allegations that Pickering denies and
47:23
Speaker 2: they relate to personal issues, but if there's allegations of
47:27
Speaker 2: serious drug use, then that's not a personal matter for
47:31
Speaker 2: a political candidate.
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Speaker 13: Yeah, Chris, and these are just, they are allegations, but
47:38
Speaker 13: they're really quite serious. I mean, we don't know the
47:40
Speaker 13: full substance on them, so I don't really want to
47:42
Speaker 13: comment in any particular way. But, you know, it could
47:47
Speaker 13: raise potential questions as to, you know, judgment and those
47:50
Speaker 13: sorts of things. And political parties have to deal with
47:53
Speaker 13: this sort of and not dissimilar stuff all of the time.
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Speaker 13: That's why we have candidate vetting processes and And not everything, obviously,
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Speaker 13: is fatal for a candidate. We know that people have
48:03
Speaker 13: gone through all different things in life and have recovered
48:07
Speaker 13: from and all of that sort of thing. So I
48:08
Speaker 13: don't think people necessarily need to carry everything that they've
48:11
Speaker 13: ever done with them forever.
48:13
Speaker 2: They've got to address them.
48:14
Speaker 6: But.
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Speaker 2: Yes, but.
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Speaker 13: They have to address them, because if you want to
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Speaker 13: play with the big kids, you are going to cop
48:20
Speaker 13: the scrutiny that the other big kids would ordinarily cop.
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Speaker 9: Indeed.
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Speaker 2: And you've got to address them honestly, Gemma. That's the
48:26
Speaker 2: issue here as well. If Warren Pickering... has denied this outright,
48:30
Speaker 2: then he needs to be careful that no-one can prove otherwise,
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Speaker 2: and we're not suggesting one way or the other.
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Speaker 6: Right.
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Speaker 9: And I think, broadly, if you look at what the
48:38
Speaker 9: voters of Australia are telling the major parties, is that
48:41
Speaker 9: the major parties have broken relationship and trust with the
48:44
Speaker 9: voters of Australia. That much is clear. And I take
48:47
Speaker 9: a step back and go, whether it's with voters or
48:49
Speaker 9: whether it's with a friend or a business associate or whatever,
48:51
Speaker 9: you cannot have relationship without trust, and you can't have
48:54
Speaker 9: trust without disclosure. So it doesn't matter who you are,
48:57
Speaker 9: your background, your circumstances, disclosure, owning those things, whatever they
49:02
Speaker 9: might be, is a critical part of building trust. And
49:05
Speaker 9: One Nation as a broad party is finding itself in
49:08
Speaker 9: the spotlight for all of the right, well, for them,
49:10
Speaker 9: the right reasons, I suppose. The only other observation I
49:13
Speaker 9: would make about this particular story and a reflection this
49:16
Speaker 9: morning talking to someone is the same lens, is that
49:20
Speaker 9: same lens truly applied to every person sitting in federal
49:23
Speaker 9: parliament right now? Because you and I both know that
49:25
Speaker 9: that would be an interesting exercise.
49:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, it tends to get there eventually, though. Yeah, absolutely.
49:30
Speaker 6: I'm not excusing, but.
49:32
Speaker 2: It should be. As you say, it should be with everyone.
49:34
Speaker 2: We're nearly out of time, but I'll just mention this.
49:37
Speaker 2: I think we'll have the vision here. of veterans laying
49:40
Speaker 2: down their medals out the front of Parliament House today
49:43
Speaker 2: in Canberra. And I think we would all agree this
49:46
Speaker 2: is over that $ 5, 000 threshold for medical services. This is
49:52
Speaker 2: a battle that's not going away for the government. I
49:53
Speaker 2: think we'd all agree that this is... A fight with
49:56
Speaker 2: veterans is not what they want, Caroline.
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Speaker 13: It's one they're not going to win because the Australian
50:03
Speaker 13: community is always going to side with the veterans and
50:06
Speaker 13: they're going to think that they're just penny-pinching over something
50:08
Speaker 13: like a $ 5, 000 limit.
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Speaker 6: Gemma?
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Speaker 9: Mr Albanese should fire the Veterans Affairs Minister, but he
50:15
Speaker 9: won't because he has no ticker.
50:17
Speaker 2: No ticker. Thanks, Gemma. Thanks, Caroline. Right out of time,
50:20
Speaker 2: here's Peter Credlin.