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Byron Katie: The Four Questions That End Suffering and Transform Your Life · The James Granstrom Podcast - Super Soul Model series

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Before we begin, this week's guest is Byron Katie, the best-selling author and creator of the work.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Her transformative approach has helped countless people shift their mindset and find peace.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're facing challenges or uncertainty, this conversation will give you powerful tools for clarity and transformation.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the James Grantstrom Podcast Super Soul Model Series.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: This week we are joined by one of my favorite guests.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I really appreciate all the things she's done.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest is a woman who's transformed millions of lives all around the world.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: In 1986, after a decade-long struggle with depression and deep self-loathing, Byron Katie experienced a profound awakening.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: She realized that something both simple and revolutionary, when we believe our stressful thoughts, we suffer.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: And when we question them, suffering begins to dissolve.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: From that realization came a method of self-inquiry known as the work.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it centers around four powerful questions, and the process is called the turnaround.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, for more than 30 years, Katie has shared and inspired this approach globally through workshops, through books, and live events.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Her best-selling works include Loving What Is, I Need Your Love, Is That True?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: A Thousand Names for Joy and A Mind at Home With Itself.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: She continues to share the work through her live online program at Home with BK, where people around the world gather to question her thoughts and find peace.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Byron Katie, welcome to the show.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you, James.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Katie, your work is, and I love the the play on the words there, the work, because it just came from four questions.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: But what was the first question that you asked yourself to get yourself out of that heavy period of your time that turned everything around?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what was the first question you asked yourself?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I just realized that this may sound a bit odd, but the things I some of the things I was believing, you know, just really believing, just were not true.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I saw the cause of my suffering and I saw how to end it.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And what is that?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I didn't try to stop my mind, I didn't try to slow it down.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: I I just was so curious, I began to question it.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so this work, this body of work, is um all about, you know, supporting people who are open to it to question what they're thinking and believing anytime they're experiencing fear, pain, sadness, just you know, a way, a way to question our suffering and to see what is valid and what is not, actually.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: I I really feel that as human beings, just in my own investigation, and I sort of always ask the audience to sort of look into their own experience because their experience is giving them feedback about what's working and what's not.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, as human beings, I believe that we have to feel every spectrum of emotion there is, like the rainbow of colour.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: We also need to feel those feelings inside of ourselves, but we just don't want to dwell in those lower ones or those difficult ones like the sadness or the depression or even the grief for such a long period of time.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say about that with the work and those four questions that you have?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say about those difficult emotions that we seem to latch on to?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Why do we latch onto those heavy emotions?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes why do they stay for a long period of time?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: We're believing our thought.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: For example, um, if I say a word, no matter how, no matter what I say or do to convince you not to see an image of what I say, it's you know, you may be just powerless over that.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'll say a word and don't give it a picture, okay?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, banana.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: You see, you there it is, there's an image.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's the way the ego holds its strength, it names things, and so there is a name and there is a picture, and you can't have one without the other, really.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's it's like um a happening, like a magic trick.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's the ego's food.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's how I can sit here and say, I I am talking to you, James.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and yeah.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: If we cast our mind back to your first experience when you began to question that really difficult period of the deep depression and the self-loathing, I can't see that in you at all because you're a completely different person.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: If there's a young person listening and they're going through a hard time, maybe they're feeling not good enough, maybe they're feeling they're gonna fail at something.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: How would you be able to reframe that for somebody who's young and is really into that?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, life is really showing me that this is how I'm feeling and it's not getting any better.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, it's um the work is a way to identify the thoughts that are causing our trouble, causing our misery, you know, everything from mild irritation to suicidal tendencies.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a way to identify those thoughts when we're feeling all those emotions.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: What are we thinking and believing?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because you cannot have the emotional without the ego's trip happening inside of us.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's um a way to identify the thoughts that we're thinking and believing in that situation and move them from our head to paper.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I have um I have like a worksheet that will support people to move those thoughts from their head to paper, and there are six questions on that, and it's um really it's checkmate to the ego, it only thinks like six things, and so it can express itself on paper, which I find respectful.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: The ego, you know, it's a powerful, even though it's nothing really a state of mind, it really is something, you know, with no ego, no world.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a way to identify those thoughts that would alienate us from loving the world, loving our life, loving loving the life we're living, a way to identify those thoughts that would keep us from understanding like that.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Way to identify them and move them from our head to paper.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And those um that worksheet, it's all inclusive.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's one through six.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: That that's it.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: I want, I need, I don't ever want to, basically.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if we go down to what the four questions really are, and before before we actually sort of tap into this beautiful, simple, but yet incredibly powerful thing that came to you where you began to question.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: I really like this because you were talking about the paper.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: I read in an interview, and I really like it because you said all war belongs on paper.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and because when you have the ability, this is what I'm taking, and correct me if I'm wrong here, Katie.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: But when you write it out, you can't fight with it anymore.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: There it is, you know, yeah, this head that is causing this difficulty, these fears, and and you know, they belong on paper.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So this worksheet allows us to move from our head to paper and then question those thoughts that are causing our suffering.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And once we question them, we in this process I call the work, you know, I it's it's um we can question what we're thinking and believing that are the cause of our suffering, and it shows us how to end it.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's we're it wakes us up to reality.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: And reality is a gift, it's it's the world, not as we believe it to be, as like this hell, but actually a gift.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that, and it is a gift, and I feel very blessed because I've come across this beautiful present moment just through over two decades of daily meditation.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that was for me, like the audience will know this, but for me, I was uh, you know, I had addictions and I managed to just follow a path of just like the one thing I can do is learn how to sit in silence, and that is the most rebellious thing I can do is to sit in silence.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, wow, I'm a real rebel here, but sitting still, wow, I'm not used to doing that.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: But when I began to sit still, my mind eventually had to give way.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if that's the ego because there's always, you know, you're always juggling, but eventually that mind had to become quiet.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm wondering, in your experience, did your mind become quiet, or did you just begin to question and then it became quiet?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm fascinated by your experience.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Quiet, very quiet.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I was able to observe what did appear to appear.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredible.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And was it just just because you were so curious, you wanted to know what is causing this within you, or because that first spark we all have, but what you had, Katie, was this these four questions that came that we're going to share with everybody.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I had uh I had uh I saw that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when I questioned my thoughts, I didn't suffer.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I've come to see this is true for every human being.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so it's respectful to identify the thoughts, move them from our head to paper, those thoughts that are causing our suffering.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that powerful goes against our nature.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like a signal, stress is like a a signal that there's you know, to look at what are we thinking and believing, because that is the cause of identity, even.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the I.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: The I, the yeah, the I.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I am, I am, I think.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think, therefore, I am.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, therefore, therefore I am, I think.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: If we go to the questions, these four simple questions that came to you, and you began to use them on yourself, and then you suddenly to began to feel like this natural state of joy, and then other people started watching you be a very different version of yourself.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: I would probably call it the natural version of yourself.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: What was the what was the with Steven?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh Steven.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: I love Stephen's books.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I just wanted to know like the first question that you asked out of the four, so we can share it with the audience, because some will know and some won't know.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: The first question you asked when you were feeling in that suffering state was, and let's go through the four questions that you asked called the turnaround.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the the first one, is it true?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like something terrible is going to happen.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Is it true?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's just one, just one thought, something terrible.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't care about me, or there's something wrong with me.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Any any anything the ego would offer up, we can test it.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And other otherwise, you know, there's hell in this world, but we can identify the thoughts that are causing our suffering and on and wake up to reality.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it would be like something terrible is going to happen.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the first question is, is it true?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you might be going, well, I don't know.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe not.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Can I really know that it's true?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: That something terrible is going to happen.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so linger as you were doing in the first question, you know, it's an exercise in stillness.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's it uh brings about self-realization, it's a way to end the fear in our life.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: First question, is it true?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the second one, can I really know that it's true?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Can I really know that it's true?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Something terrible is going to happen.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then notice how you react when you believe the thought.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: For example, something terrible is going to happen.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: So notice how you react when you believe the thought, something terrible is going to happen.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: We see images of things that really are full, you know, occasionally full of like the worst that can happen.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it the ego offers up all kinds of images.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not good enough, I'm gonna be rejected, um, there's something wrong with me, you know, all of this.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's going to be war in the land, all you know, all of our fears.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: How do I react when I believe the thought something terrible is going to happen?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I I have responded to um to things that happen when we get quiet and we sit in it.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how do I react when I believe the thought something terrible is going to happen?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: I see all kinds of hell.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, those are images in our head.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's natural, it's cause and effect, internal cause and effect.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Then the last question, the fourth question, is in this situation right here, right now, who would I be without the thought something terrible is going to happen?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that allows me to get present and sit in the um experience, the chair that's holding me.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm looking out the window and I see trees and sky and I see furniture and I see, I see more value offered up from the world to me than I can even comprehend.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like the floor that's holding me, the chair that's holding me, the ceiling is not crashing down on me.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: I see in reality, all is well.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: All is well.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And who would I be without the thought?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: All is all is well right here, right now, not forever, but right now, and this is this is this is good.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is good.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is good.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then this state of gratitude, something terrible is going to happen.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Then I invite people to turn their original statement around, like something terrible is going to happen.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Something wonderful is going to happen.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Something really good is going to happen.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: There are several turnarounds.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Something wondrous wonderful is going to happen tomorrow, today.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, wherever our mind goes, something wonderful is going to happen.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And something wonderful in that situation has happened.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've gone from something terrible is going to happen to waking up to the gift of life right here, right now.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And even if a bomb is coming at me, I can see it in the air.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: It hasn't hit me yet.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I am present and I'm going to take in the gift of life right here, right now.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: I it looks like that bomb's gonna hit me.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: I can see it in the air.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: But this is good.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: This this is this life is precious.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: The bomb hits me, who's here to know it?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I I really love this really simple principle because it's transformed millions of people's lives.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yet, all of us in this experience we know as a human experience.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I believe we're spiritual beings having a human experience.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I believe in the spiritual term, this is my this is my interpretation, that all is well, but in the human experience, not always.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: And yet we have to go through the ups and downs of all and experience the colour and the spectrum of emotion to recognize or to come back to the truth that all is well.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder why that is.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: In in this world of duality, you know, that's this is an earth experience.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's something terrible is going to happen.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: The opposite, something wonderful is going to happen.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is the world of duality.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, but we can question, you know, something terrible is going to happen, or um he doesn't care about me, there's something wrong with me.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's alone, I'm it's it's a terrible world.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we can question all those, all those thoughts.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna flunk this test, you know, for for young people, you know.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna get that job, or I'm gonna get the sack, or that person that I love is gonna die.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you know, when we're stressed out, we're not at our best.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: You can bang things into place, I believe, but I don't think you'll ever get the satisfaction that you really want when you're stressed.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: I know I haven't.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, stress is uh stress is a you know, that physical stress is the result of um an unquestioned mind.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's what we're thinking and believing.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: This uh life is a trance.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: The work breaks that trance.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And when that trance is broken, there is no opposite, it's the end of duality.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: It is it is the gift of life without opposite.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been through some uh lot of situations to test that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Which situation do you feel that you've experienced or helped somebody through that you thought, wow, this this really worked on anything?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you experience because you've seen a lot and you've worked with millions of people.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: But what situation do you feel like, wow, that really brought about peace there?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or that brought that really was the turnaround there?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I can look to myself for that, you know, you know, on for on for whatever reason, my body began to shut down and they got me into hospital.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and as at um at some point there were five different specialists there in my hospital room trying to stop whatever was happening in this body that just kept getting worse and worse and worse and worse, and they couldn't find the source.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um they had one one last um one last try, and and it was to it was um some kind of process, the way they described it.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: They were gonna wash rinse my lungs, wash my lungs, and it was um uh some equipment equipment that took up just one um average size room and uh a smaller room.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I signed a thing because it could cost me my life going into this process.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: It was last resort.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um and you know, one of my sons was there, and and I I said, you know, can he come in with me?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'd really like him to be there with me.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And he came in and we talked about his life, my life, you know, what we love about the world, what we're gonna have for lunch, you know, just just it was and I didn't die.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I watched, I watched physicians just my experience doing everything they could to save a life that I had no, I was fascinated with will it live, will it die, you know, just don't know, don't know.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Good if I do, good if I don't, you know.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, the absence of fear and just being just being the process of pure curiosity.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, I fascinate, just fascinating, James.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that people can live their everyday life like that.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: The gift of life, the magic of life, the gift, it's extraordinary opportunity.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: But when we're worried, we lose that gift and we cannot see.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: What we're seeing, because the mind is is that ego is taking our life over and with fear and envy and ah.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: So the question, the question, I I thank you for sharing, because you know the the the truth is your own experience is the one that's the most precious that you can actually feel like I I get to witness watching my own transformation through my own challenges back to feeling that beautiful state of all is wellness, I like to call it.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: But to be at peace when you feel like they might turn off the machine, to be at peace knowing that I might get to live, I might not be able to do it.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's not even peace, it's curiosity.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like curiosity, it trumps peace.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's like the fascination with the gift of life and what is knowing there's no downside to life other than what the ego offers up.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I and so I can see what you're saying, James.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I love what you've just said there because you were saying you need to have that beautiful curiosity, but I also see the mind of a child is totally curious.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we almost have to return to that curious state that we had in the childlike.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's um it's um it's a don't know mind and and understanding that all is well without opposite, and and um and what's left is the curiosity of um oh this gift of life.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a don't miss.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you know the ego would have us stuck in here, there, everywhere, rather than present.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the ego is not something that we can kill.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's it's not something, you know, it's it can't be murdered.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's um it's uh but it can be understood.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And love is the power, that understanding, and the ego is like a I see it as like a terrified child.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: So how does the ego begin to develop?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Does it begin to develop in your like you know the first 10 years of your life?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: How how in your experience and in your work have you discovered because it's it I sometimes feel as though that it gets a bad rap.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, ultimately it's there for a purpose and it's serving a purpose.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're not gonna judge it, if we're not gonna judge it, but you can witness it, then it's kind of like you're befriending your mind.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And when I look at the titles of your books, and I love your titles of your books, I think they're fascinating.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Loving what is, I love that you know, joy with a thousand faces, I think that's fantastic, and then and then I need your love.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is that true?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is that that's beautiful because you know the truth is you are love, yeah, and when you know that, of course, the world will mirror that.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't feel like that, you're trying to get it from somewhere else.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's the ego at work, yes.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, but as children, we do need that love to recognize you know, that support and love.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: But what if you were a child and you didn't have that love growing up?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: How does this work then begin to soothe the nervous system and the heart of those people that grew up in difficult childhoods?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's never too late.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: You just go back to your first memories and you know, where it was so tough and not necessarily a first.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: You just go back to where the earliest pain and rejection and fear that you can identify in your mind.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a an exercise in stillness.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: You just sit and you just go back, and and and you may find what you think is the first memory, but you're not quite sure.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that one will do.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's the earliest memory that you can recall, and then you look at what you were thinking and believing in that situation, and then you just write it down, you know, what do you fear?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so you write down your fear, like she doesn't love me.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's my my mother doesn't love me, or um my um father is cruel.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um just go back to your earliest memory and move it to number one on the word on the judge your neighbor worksheet.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: So there is your first thought, and in that situation, what did you want?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then you fill in number two with what you wanted.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you see how that worksheet I put together, it's it's I call it checkmate to the ego.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: There are only six things that the ego does, and it's a repetitious cycle.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's um I'm angry or hurt, whatever the emotion is because.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next one, in that situation where you were where you were troubled, for example, what did you want?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: What did you want?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like my father doesn't love me, you know, that would be number one on the worksheet.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: The next one is in that situation with your father, where you were believing he didn't love you, what did you want?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: What did you want your father to think, say, feel, or do?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you fill in number two.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: So those six questions keep us anchored in one time and place where the ego was in full blown riot.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're unloved, there's something wrong with you, no one loves you, you know, those you're not good enough, you know, whatever it may be.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And only six things, that's the ego's thing, six things, and and those are on the worksheet one through six.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we identify those.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: There we've got the cause of our suffering, then we question them with four questions, and uh and we wake up to what we missed then, we're awake to now.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we can we can see that really what we were thinking and believing in that situation, we were so fearful or hurt or damaged, you know, what we were thinking and believing that situation was the cause of our suffering, not what was actually happening.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Even physical pain is either remembered or anticipated.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone with an open mind considered these four questions.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like the word anxiety, a lot of people use the word anxiety these days.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen it a lot more sort of thrown around.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: How can you stop it returning?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because it might be there, okay, you manage to reset a memory or maybe look at it from a different perspective with your four questions and then the turnaround.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: But how can you stop it returning again and again and again?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes people get caught up in I call it the loop of lunacy, because you just it just happens again until you interrupt that pattern.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, James, my experience is that when it reoccurs, if I've worked it, there's no pain in it.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, we can even smile, go, oh, ego, that's a good one.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but it's just you know, we're awake to um to the ego, we're awake to uh the cause of suffering and how to end it.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's um it's preventive medicine, literally.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And how has your health been since you've been able to do the work regularly?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm 82.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, looking great for 82.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm 82, and uh my walk this morning uh was as strong as when I was maybe stronger than than in my youth, and I was an athlete.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, you're an athlete as well.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's strong, and it's um it's a pleasure and a privilege, and and I don't have I don't I don't have any aches or pain.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's fantastic.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um but when you notice how we react when we're thinking the thought, for example, no one cares about me, just notice the depression and the ego just feeds that thought, you know, and and so I need I need different clothes, I need to lose or gain weight, I need um, I need, I want, I need, I want.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's um it, you know, the ego would lead us to believe that we're not okay the way we are.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and and uh, you know, like self-loathing, it's you know, the the self-criticism, and I can't find one on me.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's the way of it.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Any any place I may lack, someone else has it covered.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Why am I needed to fill that space?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's all it's it's it's checkmate to the it's this this is a flawless world.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if someone's going, well, you know, I was in the who I'll tell this this story.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: A man said he was going to kill me, he was going to shoot me, he had the gun, and he put it, you know, he just and uh I looked into his eyes and and um and uh it just happened he didn't pull the trigger.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's nothing that he saw when I looked into his eyes, it's not any woo-woo stuff like that.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's uh I didn't want to miss what could be the last few moments of my life.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: That would be crazy.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um let's see, there was an another piece of it.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I looked into his eyes and I saw fear and I felt empathy.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and also I saw it was night, and also I could see the the moon and the clouds and the sky, you know, be crazy to miss the last what could be the last few moments of my life.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um who wants to miss that?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: That would be crazy.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then I could see him, and I my thought was James, I hope he said he was gonna kill me, and my thought was I hope he doesn't do that to himself.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I'm dead, if he shoots me, you know, no harm, no foul, there's no one there to to blame anyone.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: But he doesn't do it to him.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting that in in my experience of silence and being present for a long time, don't get me wrong, I dance in and out of this of presentation.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: But what I've noticed I see that as unfinished business.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's uh I'm okay with it.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm okay with it, yeah.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've made people earth school, yeah.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, those things show up so we can um uh hack them and see the cause of our fear.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I just like to just w witness it, witness and observe it, you know, just be a participant in the oh okay, that's happening right now.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: But you said something that I really like just about the guy with the gun.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I like the experience, but I really believe that when you do something to somebody, it really ultimately always comes back to you.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you have demonstrated with your work, you know, you can find a little bit of heaven through this work.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: By finding that peace, by questioning and being curious like a child, and it really does work these questions, because I've tried it.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it takes a very open mind, and you're gifted with that.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's it really is a gift, but also whilst it can create heaven, before we get there, we are experiencing our own version of hell, and I don't believe hell is a place, I just believe it's the thoughts and the feelings that you're feeling that that feel so far away from who you are.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I believe and know that you know your method and your turnaround method of the four questions really does help you find heaven again.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're gonna be able to do that.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: When you when you really get curious, you know, you call it checkmate, but I call it heaven, you know.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, that's heaven.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to which one do you want to go?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Which one do you want to lean towards today?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, like a like we can find moments of peace and then chaos again.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, I want to lean towards heaven again.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll be prepared to to get curious and go, oh well.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, self-inquiry wakes us up to reality, and reality is always kinder than what we're believing about it.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it always kinder, yet we somehow have a may think of it differently.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's it's um it's it's just an unchallenged mind.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's an unquestioned mind, it's it's uh it's blind and it's deaf.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's um it's the ego, it's the it's a takeover, the ego's takeover.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a question.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Have you noticed that you laugh a lot more now?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find things way more funny?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and often with less heaviness, you know.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and often inappropriately.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which I the word the best I like, you know, where you shouldn't be laughing then, but you laugh anyway.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I forget that other people don't see it.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, when when we're fearful, we're we're blind to to options that are available.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because we can't see them, we can't see the opportunity because it's kind of filtered out, isn't it?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's yeah, it's overridden by fear, fearful thoughts.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the so what's a a day in the life with like you and your husband, for instance, who is also a very accomplished author, um, with some incredible work.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: The pair of you have got an incredible body of work.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, do you find yourself laughing and giggling a lot, the pair of you?
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'd say, yeah, for me a lot.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he's more he he's a he's a bit uh stoic, and his IQ is off the charts, and mine is the extreme opposite.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a lovely balance, right?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's so good.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's so so good.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: I I teach him to laugh without meaning to, and he teaches me to um be very curious about all that all that knowledge in his head.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: I love it so much, James.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: He's just so bright.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like living with this genius, but I wouldn't trade his for mind, not for any, for mine, my mind for anything.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's one thing that you said that I really love about when you do the work, you see the all is wellness.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that's my words, but you kept on saying it's all is well, you're like, it's so beautiful, it's it's gorgeous, reality is really lovely.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I also see that with each one of us, you know, you take away all those filters with each one of us as human beings.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, some of us have got traits that, you know, some are positive, some are negative, but you take them all away, they're still like, wow, you're an amazing person.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I just really love that with your work and that questioning and curiosity, you get to a point where I am who I am, and that is perfect, just as is.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: You can see it, if you can see it in yourself, you can see it in every human being.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: Self, it takes self-realization, you know, we're all doing the best we can.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we have in common when you consider what we're thinking and believing.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: No one would ever harm another human being.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I really believe there's a responsibility, and I think that your your work is not so much of a you know discipline such as you must do it, it's just a way to find grace, it's a way to find calm, it's a it's a it's a door that opens the possibility back to the way of hacking hell.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or the the path of peace.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Katie, it's been absolutely amazing speaking with you and sharing your wisdom.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: If there's some people listening right now who are kind of like unsure about the thinking process, or they're finding it they're just stuck in the pain yet, aren't ready yet to question.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Why do people get stuck in that pain loop before they're willing to actually question their thoughts?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're they're they're believing their thoughts to take them to that place in the first in the first place.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're leaving, they're believing what they think about him, her, them, the world, and on and that is alienating.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: So people don't alienate us.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: We when we look at what we're thinking and believing, how are we alienating people and in in our own world?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's um yeah.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's one last thing you wanted to share with the audience, what would it be, Katie?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: That that um that all all pain is either remembered or anticipated.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And to notice that, and there is a way out of suffering, so we don't have to take shortcuts.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: We can really understand the cause of all suffering and how to end it.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: That that in that we all hold uh, you know, there are people like Stephen with high IQs, and then there are the rest of us.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and on, but it it it it it none of it matters.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: And some are fat, some are thin, some are too tall, some are too short, some are right, some are wrong, you know, the human race.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do I love the human race?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: And for those of us that don't yet, we can identify what we're thinking and believing about others, him, her, them, the world, and identify those thoughts, move them to paper, and question them with a with a very open mind.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: And those questions are always always free on thework.com.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I have all the links that everybody can download and go and follow Katie's work.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's truly transformative.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're looking to hack hell or find your pathway to peace, it's definitely a place that I would go.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I have been, and it's been uh incredibly transformative for me.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I just wanted to uh say a big thank you to you uh for being on the show this week.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: This week's super soul model is Byron Katie.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, James, and thank you for what you're gifting to this world.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate you.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if this resonated, share it with someone who's ready for more.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: Keep creating space, and I'll see you on the next episode.