Latest / FitMitTuro Fitness Podcast / Overcoming the Dad Bod: Dane Palarino´s Proven Approach to Sustainable Body Composition Change

Transcript

Overcoming the Dad Bod: Dane Palarino´s Proven Approach to Sustainable Body Composition Change · FitMitTuro Fitness Podcast

• 1:06
  Reporting in Progress. You Hey, brother, how Are you?
• 2:48
  Hey, Dana, how are you? I had to restart my computer. Give me a second. There we go. No worries.
• 2:57
  There we go. Hey, man, happy Friday. Hey.
• 2:59
  Man, happy to see you. Just before we get started, can I start recording? Because I feel that if I start, if we talk that novel set before we miss, always the good part. So if I start recording right away, and then we start to talk, is that cool for you? Perfect for time wise, I try to keep it around 45 minutes. Maybe, if we end up talking not longer than our is that time for you?
• 3:28
  Yeah, I've got plenty of time, man, I got it blocked off, so I'm here for you, perfect.
• 3:35
  Dave, ballerina, we are live.
• 3:35
  First of all, thank you for so much for coming to my podcast.
• 3:38
  And I, I like to start this podcast recording right away, so we haven't been talking, because I feel like that we are always missing kind of the best part when we are back talking, how are things and that kind of stuff before, if I wait before, we have already talked about these things, and then it is kind of awkward when we start talking about those things. So then welcome to my so short introduction, who you are, what you are doing, where you are living, before we start to talk about fitness. Yeah, you got it, brother, thanks for having me. So my name is Dane.
• 4:19
  You know, brief intro, I'm in Charleston, South Carolina. I'm a father of two boys. I'm a husband, beautiful wife, and been married now 10 years. And outside of that, I've run multiple companies as an entrepreneur. My career started off as an entrepreneur building headhunting firms for technology companies. And so I spent seven years building my first firm, DAP Consulting Group, which essentially built executive level leadership teams for technology companies in the software space, uh, so companies that were anywhere kind of 2 million, Arr, all the way up to kind of 100 million. Arr, we built out those mission critical executive hires. So Chief Product officers, chief revenue officers, VPS, um, essentially, I ended up spinning that off and building a more niched firm in in building just a product management headhunting firm. It was the first of its kind, and that was in 2018 and very quickly, within three years, we built it into a seven figure agency, and it was just me and my wife, and we had some people helping us on the back end. But in the course of that, while I was building that second brand, which is called palarino partners, I also had a child. I had a second child coming. My wife and I had been married a couple years, and I had been training kind of one hour a day at that time, my training was just based off of kind of an hour a day at Orange theory group fitness, because I didn't have a whole lot of time, so I would just kind of work to the end of the day fast most of the day, and then go over to orange theory. And essentially, with the awakening call for me was, after doing about six months of this class, they ended up doing a transformation contest, and I thought it was in pretty good shape. And I took they took some before pictures, and that's when I had a rude awakening. I had realized, wow, this was not the body I thought I was in. I had built what I like to say, a world class Dad Bod, and I was extremely ashamed of it, and so I had recognized, I didn't see this coming, but I had I prioritized my business over my health, and then I had recognized patterns in my life over the prior year that even though I was making the most amount of money that I had ever made, my business was the most successful that I ever been. I'd spent over 10 years trying to build a business like that. I was waking up with no excitement, no no zest for life, and I recognized that it was because of the body that I was in. I was super insecure and no amount of money was going to fix that. And I didn't realize that until I saw that picture. It made me really realize like, this is why I'm acting the way that I'm acting. You know, in my marriage as a father, as an employee, I was short, I was aggressive, I was Curt at times, and I just didn't have a very pleasant attitude to be around.
• 7:07
  And Turo came down to me, recognizing that it was because the body that I was in and I didn't like the way it felt.
• 7:15
  Yeah, wow, that's, that's a, that's a pretty uh, awesome realization.
• 7:23
  Like, I think I'm, I'm, you are now. How old are you? You are 45 now, right now, I just turned 46 Yeah. Oh, 4646 right? That's it.
• 7:31
  So I'm 42 and I'm, I'm at the moment, like, obviously I'm a fitness professional. But I have also a feeling, like, at this age, it's like, obviously business is important, it's going well. But I realized also for myself, like patterns that do i where i do i need it more like, it's, it's my health is, it's at the moment, at least it is a higher priority than, than doing the most, most amount of money. Like, I think it's when I started. And when you are a little bit younger, you are kind of trying to get the most money making financially as well as possible. But if that comes, like you said, that, you know, you pay price with your health.
• 8:16
  Is it really worth of it? And those are really questions, like, you gotta, you gotta face, ask yourself, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:24
  Yeah. And it was for me. For me was my dad got seriously sick at the age of 60, and he passed away at age of 70. That's now over like it's around 20 months ago, but it's still, it's still, when I think about it like that.
• 8:47
  If I'm thinking like that, okay, I I have 18 years left, and if I think that, or something like that, and 18 years ago, like now, if you, if I think, what was it 18 years ago? Like, it feels like that. It was just like a yesterday. Not like, yes, it's still, it's still a while ago, but, but it time is passing so quickly and and I'm just thinking like, if it's, is it really worth of it to make, trying to make, chasing the most amount of money, or if you have basically all your needs, what you need, you have a you have a job, what you enjoy doing, you have a place where to live. You get you can pay your bills. You can you have everything, what you need. But, and then to make that extra 1020, 30, 40,000, or whatever amount that is per year, is it really worth of it?
• 9:37
  If, if the price is sacrificing your health or or taking away from years with the quality life, that's something that, yeah, I totally agree. You know, I had always, I had always wanted to be the provider and the protector, and building a business, it takes a lot of energy. It takes a lot of time.
• 9:56
  It takes a lot of resources, as you know, right? It's like, you gotta create the velocity to get the plane down the down the runway, and then you gotta get it in the air, and then while it's in the air, most of the time you're building and figuring out how to fly it while it's in there, that takes a lot of your energy and mental capacity. You know, you have decision fatigue by the end of the day. So then you step into these roles, where now you're a husband, now you're a father, now you're a business owner, now you've got employees. Now also you're supposed to take care of your health and know how to actually make sure that your body composition stays in a frame that you're comfortable with, in that you know you you feel like you're, you're, you're crushing life. And essentially, like most of us guys after 35 like that last health and fitness, it's like a bottom of the totem pole. And then when we do have time to process it like we don't, it's a full time job to really understand, okay, like, with all the information out there, like, what's the right type of type of training for me, what's the right type of nutrition? Is it keto? Is it paleo? Is it carnivore? Is it carbs? Is it no carbs, right?
• 10:56
  Like, so you just get so overwhelmed with information. So it's like, I have very little time. Number one, then number two, when I do have the time, it's like, I don't know what information to actually put in practice, because it's so confusing, right? And so if you don't know what to do, you tend to kind of keep starting and stopping, which is my case, I kept changing. I was doing calisthenics, and then I was doing weights, and then I was doing group theory, group fitness classes, and then I was doing Pilates or yogas, like all these different things. And then after three or four weeks, they would fade, because I didn't believe I was getting the result that I was I was putting the time into. And so a lot of that has to do with, like, picking the right path, so that you understand, okay, I know that this is actually going to change. All I have to do is show up for it. And then once you see some results, you tend to believe more, and when you believe more, bam, you put the energy behind it, right? But getting to that point is pretty difficult when you're super busy guy. And that was the problem that I was trying to solve for it was like, Alright, I'm I've got a three year old to have a one year old. This does not scale very well, right? I like not a very pleasant person to be around. I'm definitely not a role model of them. I may be now, but as they get older, they're they're five and eight, they're 12 and nine, like they're going to look at me and be like, this, dude doesn't have standards, right? He looks like below average in his physique.
• 12:18
  So obviously, it the money doesn't make a difference, right? Because your physical representation of your discipline. So for me, my problem was like, what's the right style of nutrition that I can actually execute on and go deep into right so it's not another fade, what's the right type of diet and meal plan and training style that can fit into my busy schedule and one that I felt like I was going to progress in. And so for me, that was where the question started popping in, and I just really started investing a lot of my time and energy at night, because the other business was successful. I would have a couple hours at night when my wife would go put the kids to bed, and most of the time she'd fall asleep with them. So I would jump into YouTube videos figuring out, like, how do I change my body composition, and how do I do it so it becomes like sustainable. And that was really journey started for me.
• 13:11
  And that was at 42 and I was about little over 30% body fat.
• 13:16
  And between you and I, I had depression, I had low energy. I felt like I was 50, because all my joints were achy. I had an autoimmune issue going on with my skin because I was drinking IPA beers, and they were causing some sort of inflammatory response in my immune system, so that was impacting my skin. And it was just like, all of a sudden, I had always been somewhat of this confident guy, and now I'm like, Dude, I don't even look myself in the mirror anymore. You know, I've told myself so many things and follow through on so little when it comes to eating the right way or training consistently. It was like I didn't know what to believe. So I wanted to become a man of standards, and so I had to figure out where I needed to set that bar. And once I identified like the right style of training, and then I complimented it with the right style of eating, it became more of a habit forming practice for me.
• 14:07
  And what was, what was like?
• 14:07
  When, when was you said that it was like for time wise and time management, how, with all this business, what you had, what kind of decisions you have to make, and what kind of time management tools do you recommend using?
• 14:25
  Yeah, that's really good question. That was one of the questions that I had to kind of dig deep. And it was like one, I was waking up with my family or after my family, because I was staying up later, so I was staying up later, and when I was staying up later, I didn't have a governor on what I was putting in my body. I was just snacking and doing whatever I wanted to do. And a lot of times that was snacking on the wrong things, either like peanuts that were, you know, seed oil, so cause inflammation, which isn't great for you, or sugar and cake or ice cream. So I was waking up in the sugar coma. So I recognized like that habit has to go. I need to set a better nighttime routine so that I can get up early. And early meant getting up before my family. So that was kind of like Habit number one that I needed to install, which was getting up before them so that I had the time to work on Dane, right? Because I knew that this was going to be a journey of self development. It was going to be more about my control of my mind than it was control of my body, because I knew with a body I was in man, it was going to take months, if not years, to really transform.
• 15:22
  But I made the connection that that's going to be motivation.
• 15:25
  It's fleeting, but I can change my mindset now. I can change the way I look at things now, and the way I look at things will start to change. So for me, I started to shift my mindset around what were good habits that I can install that were daily non negotiables for me, that regardless of the way that my body was responding, that I was going to feel good about what I did. And so for me, that was kind of five daily non negotiables that I installed in my life. And number one was making sure I got up early, so I wanted to get up before my family. So it started at like six, and then 530 and then five, and then eventually it ended up being 334 o'clock. No alarm clock needed. So I'd have two and a half three hours by myself, right? And that was the time that I got to really work on myself, because I was not in a good mental place. I had a lot of negative self talk because of the body I was in. So the second thing I did was I would read 10 minutes a day, something super positive, something that would help me get the right thoughts in my brain and control the way that I was looking at things. So that was number two. And then number three, I recognized my vibration was usually low when I woke up, I was always in a lower state. No matter if I ended at a high vibration at the end of the day, I would always wake up in a low vibration state. So I knew training, going to the gym and sweating or doing body exercises, investing 15 to 60 minutes a day was going to give make me a better person. So I made Habit number three, sweat first thing in the morning, right? So that was the third thing I did, was got myself moving and released some endorphins, got some serotonin levels higher, and that helped me. And then number four was I needed to make sure that it was a lifestyle and not a short term thing for me, right? Because motivation is fleeting. So I would notice, if I was just still doing this fasting or this keto, my attitude, my energy would fluctuate. So I eventually adopted a macro based meal plan strategy, which allowed me to consume meals every four or five hours. So that always gave me these little micro goals of, okay, I'm going to eat now for fuel, and then I'm going to go be where my feet are, and I'm going to work in a four hour work block, and then I'm going to come up, I'm going to have another meal, get the energy I needed, and go back into another four hour work block, and then I'm going to have another meal, and it's going to be time to now spend some time with my family.
• 17:43
  So I'm going to be where my feet are and be present with my children with my wife because I hadn't been very present with them the last couple of years.
• 17:49
  And then the fifth one for me was sustaining from alcohol and vices like pornography or weed.
• 17:57
  And so those five daily habits became the master plan, and every day, I just worked on mastering that plan. No this, it sounds like if I it came. I got so many thoughts.
• 18:08
  Like, when I was thinking like that, what I'm, what I'm actually like, obviously, what I changed like for me was also like, it was like three, four years ago, when I I wasn't I was kind of similar situation than you. I was working out. I was a trainer. I did group workouts, uh, every like, occasional stuff, what I enjoy doing, but I really never did like some kind of strength training. And then I made a decision that now I need to get started with strength training. And it was not even my goal is not to become bodybuilder or anything, but just to feel better in my own skin. And that was exactly what what happened. And it was not like a two, three times a week strength training. That was my non negotiable. And other thing like you mentioned about sweating, I would for me, it was never about sweating, but also during some kind of exercise, 15 to 60 minutes per day. Nothing crazy, but it could be simply 15 minute walk with my wife after lunch or or some kind of movement every single day, and and for me, I think walking is, and especially with my wife, that is, like, kind of my favorite hobby. That is, that is for for it's especially for mental, mental health. It has been enough for our relationship like that is the time when we go for a walk. We don't have phones with us. It's time when we are really having, like, deep conversations and just, or just some normal, normal stuff. But that is kind of time, but there's no distractions. It's time for us being together and and also the nutrition wise, like, what I what I love to use, like, I don't, I don't. I hate doing some meat plants or or following some strict diet. I'm more kind of a guy. Like, I have a cause like, macro based cause.
• 19:56
  Like, I basically, I focus only on on my protein and that alone, like, I'm I have been able to maintain my weight. I'm not as lean as you probably now my fat protein, this is, I think it's somewhere, like 12 to 15, somewhere that trains, and it have been there like past that 20 years. It was, it was a bit higher. But that is like my main thing is the time I'm trying to get enough protein, I make sure to hit my protein goal every single day, and other non negotiable, what I have for myself is to have two three pieces of fruit every single day, so to get basically my fiber. And with those two things, it's already a lot harder to get kind of consumed too many calories, and obviously trying to eat as much as possible homemade meals and everything what you can. And those are, like, for me, I was like that, okay, oh, exactly principles. Principles are exactly the same. It's just a little bit different kind of approach. What have worked for me that's amazing, yeah. I mean, so like, if you do that a lot of guys, if you just focus on hitting that protein goal and getting a pound of protein, or an ounce of protein per pound of body weight. Like, you're going to find that you're going to be a lot more satiated, and you're going to have a lot less cravings, you know, and then you fill in the rest with some other healthy calories. Like, there's a lot of different ways to skin it, you know. I eventually, you know, I had this transformation that initially happened within the first 90 days I got my body weight went from like 30% down to 15% right? And so I was like, I didn't look the way I look now, but I felt the way I look.
• 21:34
  I felt the way that I felt now, which was like I was more confident. My shoulders are back. I was leading my wife again. I was desiring my wife again. You know, I was I was looking for those intimate moments that I was avoiding for so long because I didn't feel good in my skin and and there was, there was this moment of, like, I stayed at 15% for a while, but then I would recognize, like, in the gym, all the other guys look the same, you know, and I'd been going there three years, and none of them had changed, and I looked like them. Now. I wasn't overweight or out of shape, I just kind of looked average. And I realized, like, I know myself, it was like, I'm probably going to get bored of this, and then I'm going to start slowly chipping away and getting back up to that 30% so I made a commitment to kind of dive deeper into sculpting and body composition and building more muscle. And I knew I had a smaller window, because I was 4243 now. So it was like, alright, so every day I've got a goal, you know, and I've got micro urgency, but macro patience. I know that it's a long game. It's going to take time, but I've got something I can go deep in. And so I really invested my energy into, you know, understanding how to change that body composition, to get into a body that slowly every day I felt like I was progressing veteran. And, you know, I eventually got down to 6% body fat and landed on Mr.
• 22:54
  Olympias bodybuilding team. And really, kind of got, gotten to a really good place there. So there were some goals that were achieved. Obviously, I stay now around, like 10% body fat. Like, that's where I feel like I'm getting enough calories to sleep well, to train Well, staying lean enough. But it's very empowering when you know how to control your body, and it's very frustrating when you don't know how to control your body and how your body responds to the food.
• 23:17
  So I've learned a lot in this process, and that's allowed me to help hundreds of other men similar to me, like guys that are over 35 that are super busy, and helping them really simplify the complex problem of training, nutrition and, most importantly, mindset. And while I do that, while holding them accountable and giving them, you know, weekly goals on hey, here's some targets, and we're going to make sure that we're doing this thing together. So those are some pieces that I didn't have. I did it alone. So it took me, like, three and a half years. I condense now down to guys for like, 12 weeks.
• 23:50
  No, that's That's amazing. That is the way how you learn, learn about things, when you go through yourself and you know that, oh, I put now, if I would go back, probably you wouldn't say, I don't know if you would say something, because they are usually, I think, I love to think that they are all like, even setbacks, they are part of the process and progress, and you need to have without them, you wouldn't have any any success. So they are part of it.
• 24:14
  But now, like, obviously, if you, if you are teaching it for someone else that don't do this or don't do these mistakes, what I did, so you get there's a shortcut, what you can take, save so much time, so much especially mental energy, and that to avoid same mistake. So what was it for you? I'm curious. Like I have never been single digit type percentage myself, because I know what it would take. And somehow at this point in my life, it was kind of my goal to gather visible apps, and we had a kind of pet always with my body that in because I'm originally from Finland, and we have a it's the biggest party of the year. It's a midsummer party. It's end of end of June, and we wanted to get, always physical apps or six pack abs in by mid summer. And never happened. Never happened. And obviously, when I was in my 20s, those The reason was I was a professional athlete, but going working very hard from Monday to Friday like two times per day.
• 25:25
  And then weekend was a long weekend, weekend, one night between Friday and Sunday. So you don't have to wonder why it never happened with all alcohol and everything what was at the time included, and now I know what it what it would take, but somehow, at this point of my life, it's really not heard of it. I'm happy where I am at at now, with my energy levels, everything, and I like to include little bit kind of freedom in my life, and to have, like, sometimes having a beer, sometimes having a cake and sugar stuff, what I enjoy doing, but, but not and that it's not taking over everything of my life that I only live for fitness or or having those kind of physical, visible apps, and having my as low, like getting on stage or something. So how was your experience when you got in so low fat percentage? Was it worth it?
• 26:26
  It was worth it, because of what I learned for sure, like I had, like, you know, like there was from going from 20% down to 15% there are compromises you have to make. You have to start slowly, because you generally eating pretty healthy if you're 20% 18% 15% but then you slowly have to start realizing there are some things they gotta pull out, like the granola Alright, I gotta pull out their granola bars now. So that's a compromise. I really enjoy that afternoon granola bar with the protein shake, but I know that there's probably some inflammation happening from that, so let me pull that out.
• 26:57
  And then at night, it was like, yogurt. Oh, let me pull that out, because dairy, right? So you start to realize little things, little compromise you have to make with yourself in the food selection, right flavor for fuel. And so each body fat percentage from 15% to 14% of 13, the compromises start happening, and you have to get comfortable with those compromises on exchanging more foods to put in more optimal foods. And then when you get down to kind of 10% it really becomes a mental game. It's a mental game of, can I eat consistently every day, almost the same thing every day, to give my body the ability to stop storing food and really turn my body into a furnace. So that became like when I got down at kind of 12% I hired a coach, and I remember he gave me a meal plan we were going to do the bodybuilding competition. And at this point, I had variety in my meals. You know, they weren't the same thing every day. I was just working a macro based meal plan, and I just worked ate whatever I wanted within those macros, but I was stuck at like, 12% and I couldn't figure out why, and so I hired this coach, and he gave me the meal plan, and I remember looking at it, and it was one page. And so I'm looking through the email, and I'm like, where's the rest of the week, you know? And I'm like, so I I email and I'm like, Hey, I only got one day, where's the other days? And he's like, that is the plan. And I'm like, I'm supposed to eat this every day. And he's like, yep. I was like, You're shitting me. It's like, I'm supposed to eat these five meals every day. And he's like, yep. And I was like, he's like, how do you think your body is going to have the most optimal chance to really start getting into those stubborn fat areas? And I said, he said, This is what the pros do. And I said, Okay, so now I'm going to take my game from amateur to pro. And so I started eating the same thing, and you spice it up with flavor and with spices. And at first it's like monotonous, but then it becomes, it becomes like religion. You count on it, the the consistency and the dependability and the predictability that you start to have, you start to fall in love with like, like people don't like being in the military, Army, or some people do, but all of them love the routine, you know, wear this outfit, be here, then show up here, you know, do this. So it was like, I started to fall in love with that. So I was like, I really embraced kind of eating the same things every day and looking forward to it.
• 29:18
  And it really shifted the mind from, I'm no longer eating for flavor, I'm totally eating for fuel, and at the same time, I'm feeding my gut things that are optimal. So they're really my body's always burning fat, like I would sweat during meals. And I really got into into that. It was like, Dude, I'm 45 years old, and most guys can't get rid of like, a pound. I'm, like, sweating and burning fat and seeing my body change every day.
• 29:41
  And that became addicting. You know, I put more I put more pleasure to that than I did pain, but down at 6% there those when you're down that low, you're not sleeping as well.
• 29:52
  You're more prone to get injured because you you're not being able to train as hard. So it's not really optimal. I was there for like, maybe a month or two, and then I was like, this isn't where I like to be. And I kind of got up, I slowly did a reverse diet and came out of that, and then picked like, here's where I really feel comfortable, like I feel like I feel good in my clothes, I feel great in my skin. I've got enough energy. I sleep really good, and that's generally around 10% but the short answer is, I learned a lot, and I understood exactly what foods were optimal for me and which foods were not. No.
• 30:26
  I mean, that's and that it's exactly like those kind of experiences, what I what I have heard like I've never went through myself, so I can't really say what it what it tastes but, and that's honestly, I have, I'm very good with myself. I I'm, I'm, I don't. I'm not at the moment, who knows what happens in future, but at the moment, I'm not willing to, or I don't have that kind of discipline or willingness to sacrifice so much away from my life. And yes, that is not that important for me. I'm I'm feeling very good, like, gosh, as you mentioned, like for me at the moment, is more important to perform well in my workouts, having kind of good energy levels, sleeping well, those are more important than than aiming to get that, like one Photoshop or on the states, or whatever the goal is, to get, like a leanest, but I totally get it like it's it's kind of, usually it's like a one time One kind of one time kind of thing in a life, or or you, you don't do it, you don't stay there. You don't try to stay there, like all the time. Yeah, that's totally true, yeah. But there what happens is you really start to, like your you be when you pull sugar out, like I did, because all sugar comes out, all alcohol comes out. There isn't that one day a week where you're you're having a cheat meal or a cheat day, you're just literally kind of executing every day consistency, like I found after like 14 weeks, like, this whole level of like consciousness came to me this, like I was seeing things clear. My eyes were brighter. Like it was like, wow.
• 32:02
  Like, you don't realize even just putting in some of these things, the once a week, like, it's how it impacts, you know, your chemistry. And so those were some of the really cool things that I experienced. And then I eventually, like, wanted to live a normal life. And so I now have at least one or two cheat meals a week, and that includes, like, things that I enjoy, like a hamburger or tacos or or steak, you know, in made different ways, like in a slow cooker or pasta. But I do it, I make it my own, and I keep it on the leaner, cleaner side, so I'm not including, you know, uncontrollable fats or seed oils or anything fried. And so that gives me the calorie bumps that I need. I we we enjoy cake. We just cook it like with applesauce instead of seed oils.
• 32:46
  And so we still enjoy low fat ice cream. So I still enjoy life the way that I want. But it's like, you know, it's, it's a controlled environment. And so for me, dude, that's like, I just operate better, right? When I feed my stomach better. I show up better, and I know how I respond to my wife and kids when I don't feel good about myself.
• 33:08
  And so that's, that's my major drivers, like it's my way of just kind of staying within the guardrails. But I teach guys, like, everyone has their own goals, you know, once you know how to control it, once you know how your body responds to things, then you set the guardrails for your own life and what works for you and, and that's the important thing. I think that the takeaway is, yeah, no, absolutely.
• 33:32
  And this is, like a It's the pretty amazing realization, like, what you said earlier, is that how your body, like, how it felt, and like, you know you, it's you sacrifice quality of your workouts from your sleep.
• 33:45
  So being that low fat percentage or or being longer time in a deficit, that's a huge stress for your body, and even, and of course, it's mental, mental thing also, but also physically, it's a huge stress factor for your body. And it's that's why it's not meant to be or you should be there for rest of your life.
• 34:11
  Totally true. Yeah, because you're doing twice like to get down that low, dude, you got to do cardio post workout. You got to do another cardio session later in the day. You're having less calories than ever. You're not sleeping as much. You're getting up peeing a lot. The only difference, the only benefit, is like getting up and you're just keep seeing yourself more and more and more shredding. You're seeing more and more veins and more and more abs. You're just like, alright, like, this is cool, you know.
• 34:32
  But eventually you're kind of like, alright, I like, you know, I don't need to look like this all the time. For me, I was doing a bodybuilding show, so there was a reason that I was driving myself that way. But I had a guy this morning who I hadn't seen in the gym in a while, and he's like, Hey, man, you doing a show? And I was like, No, or I've been launching Dad Bod sculptors for since last year, and when I did this bodybuilding show, it was three months into launching the dad bod sculptors company, and it was like the business was getting busier and my energy was getting lower. So it was this really big mental game of like, I'm I was burning the candle at both ends, and now, being here, I've just continued to build muscle again over the last year.
• 35:14
  And this guy's like, you're going to do a show? And I'm like, No, man, I just don't have the mental capacity. Because the businesses, I've got almost 100 clients, the business is super busy, you know, running in the family, and the kids are in school. It's like so I know my mental and my mental happiness is more important than putting myself on a stage. I didn't want to be a bodybuilder. I just wanted to live a life like a bodybuilder, because I respected the amount of work and discipline that went into the whole big picture right to build muscle after the age of 40 like it's a lifestyle. Everything's got to be dialed in your nutrition, your water, your recovery, your training. There's so many areas where you just got to kind of have it on point. And I just do really well with goals like that. And so that's So, that's my goal. It's always, as I like to say, be within striking distance of a stage, but not actually have to get on it just yet.
• 36:04
  So no, it's, it is true like you need so much so what kind of techniques or tips you have someone trying to develop that mental toughness and stay motivated through all these kind of challenges? Because if something is sure that something, if you are living a life, there is always happening something, and things usually don't go as planned.
• 36:28
  Totally true, yeah, one of the one of the biggest things that I live my life by is control the controllable, right? So when I go back to my days, I can't control the way work. Turns out, sometimes I can't control things that pop up in my life. There's so many things that are unpredictable, so the only thing I can control is my mindset and how I respond to things. So that's why the mindset piece of it is so important. Controlling the controllable how you respond to things is super important. So the stronger that you make your mind, the stronger person you'll be, whether it's in the in the training aspect, or the nutrition aspect, or the father aspect, or the husband aspect, like that piece of it is really critical, because you want to be able to control how you respond how you respond. So for me, those five daily non negotiables that I was talking about earlier, those set me in of just a position of strength every single day, because things come at me all the time, but because I've gotten up early and I know that I'm I've done that for myself, and I've two read the right thing. So I got my mind with momentum towards attack versus defense and react right?
• 37:32
  Three, I trained. So I did the hard thing in the morning, and I got myself to say, like, Hey, you did the hardest thing of the day already, right? If you went and squatted 235, 200 times this morning, and it was leg day, you could handle five or six tasks today on the computer, right, you can handle an extra phone call to the client to have a difficult conversation. So training really translated into more success in in my other business, it that 5x and then I even gave me the idea, like, when you get so aligned in your life, like, I believe, ideas are given to us, they're not conceived, right? But you have to be in a place where you're ready to receive that. So when you finally tell the world, I'm ready, right? I'm open, I'm prepared, I've done the work, those are when the greatest ideas are downloaded. So for me, like the idea of even starting Dad Bod sculptors was never an idea when I started this journey. It was a journey of, like, personal development, just to fix Dane. But eventually I realized, like, dude, that test, one of the biggest tests in my life, one of the most troubling and challenging moments in my life, turned into be the greatest testament for in my life, I've helped hundreds of other men because of that challenge, right? And it was because I got myself in a position to be able to receive that mission and purpose of going out and delivering my this experience that I had with other men, and that becomes relatable and it becomes valuable to them.
• 38:52
  So I would encourage everybody that you just have to win the day. You know you have to win the morning. Like, get up if you miss the morning workout, you got another chance tomorrow, right? If you miss the workout, you got another chance tomorrow.
• 39:05
  You miss the meal, you have another chance in four hours. If you have a drink, you have a chance again tomorrow to not do it. And every day you reset right? And every day becomes a mission to where it's like, Hey, I got five things to focus on today. Get up early, put some positive information. Make sure I take care of my body. Make sure I feed my body, and make sure I don't poison my body, like you do those things for yourself, one day, two days, three days, five days, you become such a more productive and confident individual that when shit gets thrown on your plate that you weren't expecting, it's like, Alright, I got this right. Like, because I know how to show up for myself.
• 39:44
  I know how to handle business right. So I'm going to look at this problem just like every other problem, and literally that that has allowed me to build two seven figure businesses in parallel, Dad Bod sculptors and my other company, while also being more present for my wife, being the hero to my kids, being accessible to all these men from four in the morning to nine at night. It's like I didn't, I didn't believe I had time to even find an hour a day to train. And now I like when I got those habits right, you won't believe how much more productive you become and how much more resilient you become.
• 40:17
  And for me, it's about serving the world, right? Everybody doing their important to serve the world and be selflessly.
• 40:23
  When you when you put those habits in place, you're in a much better position to serve the world, because people are curious about, how the hell are you doing all that? Like, like, clients always like, Do you sleep? Do you ever get sick?
• 40:35
  Like, what the fuck you know?
• 40:35
  They get all annoyed. And it's like, yeah, of course I, you know, I do these things, but they're not as important to me as they as they weren't were, because when the mission is bigger than the man, the energy tends to be found, yeah, and it's, it's also like, if you are able to do like often, what keeps thought that all those things, what you are doing like, of course, it takes some discipline. And I know, I know all of us have a days that you don't feel like motivated, or you don't, you don't feel like doing those things. But if you said like for me, or what I, what I, what was your game changer? For me was earlier I didn't plan my workouts. It was kind of I translate my motivation and and more often than not, my mind is it was they found always some excuse to like, there was like, 1000 excuses to not to work out, and especially like because I'm, I'm a person who, naturally, I don't enjoy lifting weights or something. If I'm, I'm like a mess time, ex ice hockey professional, and if somebody's asking me to play ice hockey, playing tennis, some kind of ball sport, or going for a walk those I'm right away. Though I'm going right away if I have a chance. But if somebody is asking that or telling me that you should go to gym there, I'm like that. There's no way.
• 41:54
  There's no way. I need to put it into my calendar. I need to set it like, acted like it's a non negotiable for myself and and I never, like, even then, like, you know you know yourself better than anyone else, and like, I know myself too that I really need to. I'm trying to still talk myself out of doing it like that, finding some things that busyness with the work or whatever, whatever, but it's the thing. What changed for me would have been a game changer, was that I never promised myself to finish my workout. I only promised to get the get started. I tell that I need to just get in there. I need to do one exercise. I need to do one set, and then if I feel like that, I don't do I don't need to do anything more.
• 42:43
  And that has been like, obviously, every day I'm not finishing my workout. There are days that I work out 15 minutes, 30 minutes, when I should broke out, maybe 60 minutes. But more often than not, when I know that when I get myself started, I will also finish it. And that is, that is then, if you look back, that's how you stay consistent. Because it's it's not about perfection, it's more more good. Progress matters more. Because that was like, especially with the athlete background, and I still see it working with some athletes, that it's that kind of mindset that if you don't get in one hour workout, one and a half hour workout, it doesn't it's not worth of it working out for 15 minutes or 20 minutes, and now after 40 I'm like, That, holy shit, I would be happy to have a one and a half hour workout, but it's, it's never going to happen. So yeah, I gotta stick with those not longer than 60 minute sessions, and doing them more consistently or and even, even if I don't have time for that, then it's, doing 20 minutes, and that's call it that for a day and repeat it next day or next week or but to having at least those two Strength Systems per week, that is kind of bare minimum for myself. What I said those standards for myself to to kind of bare minimum what I need to maintain and build muscle.
• 44:05
  That's right? Yeah, I think what you said is, like, there are days where you don't feel like doing it. There's a lot of days, right? And so for me, I always go back to the saying that my coach had taught me, that the work instills the worth, right?
• 44:17
  And so I'm like, I want to feel like I'm worth it, and I want to be able to treat myself like I'm worth it. So I always go back to the work. And for me, the work is the habits, right? So I always get up naturally early.
• 44:26
  Then two, I always read, and then three, the workout. But sometimes the workout, it's like, if I'll get caught up in the morning with some work, and now I'm like, Oh, I don't I only have like, 40 minutes, and I gotta drive to the gym 10 minutes and I got 30 minutes.
• 44:42
  It's like, ah, should I just skip it? And it's like, no, go there. So I'm always, I always say there's two things that make a great workout, whether you have 15 minutes or 60 minutes, intentionality and intensity.
• 44:51
  Right? Be intentional about what you're going to do when you get there, and put everything you got into it, like with intensity. And if you do that for 15 minutes, or you do it for 30 or 45 or 60, you're going to have that release that you need.
• 45:04
  You're going to be able to put that into the energy. And my kids started school recently, and we we I always try to be back to bring them to school, and my wife do that together, and I realized, like, Oh, I'm only going to have like, 30 minutes in the first week. I was realizing, like, I wasn't going to have my 60 minutes that I needed for myself. So I just go in there and I start super setting and just kind of being super intentional about, okay, I'm going to be in here and I'm going to push and I'm going to pull, and I'm going to push and I'm going to pull, and I'm going to give myself 60 seconds down, I'm going to be super intense.
• 45:39
  And even though it was only 30 minutes, I've walked out, like, bam, like a whole new man, so that, like, alright, I did it. I didn't have the hour that I wanted, or the 90 minutes, and I didn't get the cardio in. So I had grace with myself, but at least I took care of business when I was in there. So if you're going to show up, like the biggest encouragement that I would give people, Be Where Your Feet Are, right. Like, if you're in the gym, be in the gym. Put your phone down. Stop thinking about work. Stop thinking about what you gotta do or you didn't do. I got 15 minutes. Let me get after it right? Let me do some burpees for 15 minutes. Let me do some burpees and pull ups. Do something, because if you just do that for yourself, you'll be in a much better position to serve all the other things that are coming at you in that day.
• 46:19
  So that, that is a big belief of mine, that the work instills the worth, and it's just about being intentional with intensity, yeah, and being like, you mentioned, being present, what you are currently doing, like, that is, that is, for me, that's huge, like, and I, I still struggle with that myself. Like, sometimes when you go to workout, you think some other things, like a work or or whatever is going on. And then, you know, it's like, checking your email, checking Yeah, then it's like that, stop it.
• 46:48
  Stop it. Yeah. Now it's time to work out and not, not think about other things. Those things come after. And then when you have finished that workout, then it's, it's, you have lack more energy to actually accomplish all those things. And it's, and that is, that is the, I think for me, it's, it's the biggest game changer was like telling myself in the beginning that I don't have time, but then when I think that if I have a four hours time to do my work, but if I include 30 minute workout within that time, I'm getting more done within those four hours, when I have done that workout before, and it's for me like I for me also I need to do I know myself. I must work out first thing in the morning.
• 47:37
  Otherwise, yes, I will not change. That's right, I I've done it in the afternoon, like in the summer.
• 47:42
  It was a little unpredictable, because the kids were home, we were up later because of daylight savings time. I was going to bed a little bit later, and so I was training in the middle of the day, and it was like, by then, I had employees looking for my attention. I had clients messaging me, and I felt like I needed to be needy. So the workout was never about me.
• 48:01
  And I realized, like, after a couple of weeks, I was like, 50% of my workouts sucked, you know?
• 48:05
  And I was like, why? And then I look, it was like, because I'm messaging this person, because I only have a small one hour window to work with my designer on this project, so I'm having to do it while I'm training in between sets. And I'm like, Yes, I was there, but I wasn't really there, you know. And then then that leaves me being in a poor mood the rest of the day, and literally, my batteries just drained from decision fatigue because I didn't take care of myself. So I like, the kids went back to school, and I like, I can't I can't wait, because then I get the reset. And it's like, back to the mornings. So I'm up now 330 so I could be at the gym by 530 and back home by 730 and so it's like, I don't care if I have to get up for a little bit of 30 minutes earlier and kind of get the meal in, and get the reading in and get the training in, because I'm ready for this, you know, it's, it's almost 10 o'clock here. I've had a client call overseas. I've had a workout in. I've had a meal, two meals already. I've read my book, I've met with my kids, I I sent them off to school, and we're doing this podcast, and it's not even 10 o'clock, right?
• 49:06
  It's like, so when people say they don't have time, it's like, no, you make time for the things that are important to you. Mm, hmm, that's, that's so true. Yeah, that's so true.
• 49:15
  So what is, what is the is this like, something like, for someone who is busy, professional and and what kind of strategies you was you use, or you like, to maintain your health and fitness in the long term, the long term, the so the, I think the question is, how do I suggest to a client to, like, maintain their fitness? So it's a lifestyle term fix, yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of guys that come to us, they've tried a lot of other things, like they were me three years ago, where you tried a bunch of different cookie cutter programs, you tried a bunch of different diets. Right now, most of them only eat two meals a day, because they try to fast most of the day, and then they can all they're super busy, so they only meet two meals, and they're like, I don't understand why I'm not losing weight. So the first thing I make them realize is, as we get older, our metabolism slows down, right?
• 50:09
  Well, worked for us when we were 1819, or 20s. Doesn't work for us in our 30s, 40s and 50s. So we have to take our body from a storage unit, right?
• 50:20
  Essentially, where it's storing calories and food, much like a bear does in hibernation season, because it doesn't know when the next meal is coming, so it's holding on to these foods longer, and we need to turn it into a furnace. So the first thing we do is identify like, hey, let's talk. Talk about your schedule. What time you getting up? What's your busy day look like? When do you go to bed? And we really evaluate how much energy they need throughout the day and how many meals we can get into that into that day for them to make it seamless and simple with whole foods, because these guys don't have time to be spending two hours a day in the kitchen or three hours a week, you know, doing meal prep. So it's got to be super simple, like it was for me. So the first thing we do is understand their schedule, and then we schedule in. Okay, you're going to wake up at this time, you're going to have meal number one at this time, you're going to meal number two at this time, you're going to train at this time. And we literally just calendar it for them. We tell them exactly what to train, when to train, and how to train it. We calendar in what you're going to eat, when to eat, and exactly how much to eat. So the decision fatigue goes away. They've got the blueprint. We tell them exactly now that they're eating the right things and they're training the right way, we can optimize you with some supplementation. So we're going to tell you exactly what supplements you need to be taking. We're need to be taking, ones that are actually going to get absorbed and help with this process. And so we bake that in.
• 51:32
  You're going to do this first thing in the morning, and you're going to take these supplements, and that's going to help speed up your metabolism, that's going to help better with digestion, that's going to help better with recovery. And then the last piece is making sure, like, hey, that we're building muscle, because after 35 as you know, we start to decrease in our muscle mass. And most men want to feel manly. They want to feel like a man, and muscle makes us feel like a man. And so we always want to make sure we're not just getting the skinny fat dude.
• 51:58
  We're not just pulling all off all the fat, and then you end up in this frame that you're not comfortable with. We're going to focus on building a foundation of muscle while also stripping the fat away. And the way that we do that is low intensity cardio, cardio that's very strategic in time, throughout the day and throughout the week.
• 52:15
  And we're going to couple all that so that you can be in and out of the gym within 60 minutes. And so it's all calendared for them. They know, you know, all of that is laid out for them. They know what to train, what to eat, how much cardio to do, what supplementations to take, and if they ever get stuck, they have me in their corner, because I live this life, so I do it with them, right? And so they message me every day if they have any questions or ever get stuck. And then I also hold them accountable. So every Friday, like today, I have almost 100 check ins, right? Every Friday, every guy gets up and they check in with me. They take their progress pictures, they do their weight, they answer a bunch of questions about their sleep, their digestion, their recovery, their energy, their challenges, their compliance. And that gives me the weekend where I'm able to calibrate and give them all feedback to say, okay, hey, this week, it was a compliance issue.
• 53:03
  We're going to work on this this week right to make sure that we can get a little bit more compliant, to get better results. Or, John, you are 100% compliant, but you're nine weeks in. We're going to change up the protocol here on nutrition, we're going to tweak it on training. We're going to re readjust so the body responds better. And we do all of that in our coaching app so it becomes very seamless for them. They have one place where they can go and have all this access, and then they've got one person that's in their corner holding them accountable every week. And one of the best things one of my clients said to me was he goes, Do you know how, how many cookies I don't eat during the week because I gotta, I know that I got this check in on Friday. And he's like, just that alone, you know? Because you know somebody's going to be interested in your journey. And for me, that is some what I've built is what I needed in my journey. I basically said I'm going to go build the best version of myself, and I'm going to deliver that to people, because this is the person that I needed on my journey. So that's what my whole program is about, giving these guys the best version of me, so that they understand that I'm always raising the bar in my life, and I'm always going to be helping them raise it in their life. And then lastly, we everybody wears a whoop. Everybody gets a whoop, which is amazing because it allows us to track their data.
• 54:17
  So I know how hard they're pushing in the gym, how well their body's recovering, how their body's adapting, and the quality of sleep that they're getting. So we're really able to tailor this thing so that every single week, our clients see progress. There isn't a week that goes by that they don't see the scale going down, the energy going up, the attitude getting better, and if they get stuck, we're figuring out, all right, let's, let's dissect this. Let's look at this. And so that gives them two things. It gives them results that they want, but it also gives them the belief that, hey, what I'm doing is working, and when we tend to see that what we're doing is working, we tend to believe. When we tend to believe, we put a lot more energy behind it. We find time for things that we believe in.
• 54:58
  And so that's the trick, man, that's the those are the keys of the kingdom. That whole thing is like it. The whole point is that is something. It's this isn't a 1515, pound summer shredding program where they're gonna they don't understand what to do.
• 55:12
  They know exactly what to do, how to do it, but most importantly, why they're doing it. So it becomes a lifestyle for them.
• 55:19
  Amazing. Now, this sounds I, I absolutely loved, loved all those methods, and especially with that controlling like, having able to see, like, if you are tracking your sleep and recovery everything, so you know, like, obviously those things like trackers, they are not unprocessed accurate, but they give you pretty good estimate to know what is actually happening and learning from trends like, what you are, what you are doing, like, how is like alcohol is affecting to your sleep? How is how is hard workouts, how they affect to your sleep? Are you recovered?
• 55:54
  Is today time to push yourself, or is it time to do kind of like a mobility or easier workout for your body? So those are kind of all things, what I, what I what I love, using too, and especially taking for myself, and obviously for my my clients too, like understanding that every day is not the time to push yourself, or every week there are some other higher priorities, like for your sleep or something else.
• 56:22
  So you avoid, you avoid injury, which is the most important thing at our age, right?
• 56:26
  Because, yeah, my biggest thing when I got into it was, like, I wanted to do something that was controlled environment where I can control not getting injured, or at least minimize the risk of injury. Because if you get injured, that sometimes takes a wind out of your sail. Oh, you don't have any a lot of more runs at this thing, yeah. And this is the, that's why, like, I, I I used to, I was I didn't, first of all, I didn't know, when I was younger, what is mobility, workouts or that kind of things, and I was thinking like that, it's not worth of my time. It didn't feel like I was working out because I was chasing feeling like that. I need to feel exhausted or tired after workout. And now, if I think like, the biggest game changer is to include, like, not hour longs, but then part of your warm up, school down, some kind of mobility work and that it makes you like I struggled with the back pain, and it's it's just the key to stay healthy and do not get yourself injured. Because what is more frustrating that you work so hard. Kind of you are over training, pushing yourself hard.
• 57:28
  But then you are, like, once in a month, something, you know, you have your shoulders or knees or whatever, back pain, something is hurting, and then if you can't work out, what is the point you are having some pain. And that's like, older you get, it's it's more you have to pay attention all these kind of things. Yes, totally true, man. So important.
• 57:50
  Yeah, you gotta enjoy it. But also, like, not always have a nagging thing that's bothering you, so you're always kind of operating at 50% it's like, you want to be sore and you want to, you know, feel the workouts, but you also want to be doing it to where you're not, you know, increasing the risk of injury.
• 58:07
  Awesome. So they where people can find you, yeah, and how to work with you, yeah. So the best place is probably just go to my website, which will take you to all my socials. It'll take you to my Instagram, it'll take you to my YouTube page. It'll take you to my LinkedIn, it'll give you my calendar link to book a call or strategy chat with me. So the My website is Dad Bod sculptors.com so just www dot Dad Bod sculptors.com and on there, you'll see a little bit information about me, some of our clients that we've helped.
• 58:37
  And then it'll also take you to all my content depending on your platform, like I've noticed, some people have Instagram, some people have LinkedIn, some people only do YouTube so you can access all those channels right from my website.
• 58:50
  Perfect. I will add the website to show notes so you can get access right from there. Is there anything else you want to share?
• 58:59
  No. Man, I just want to say thank you so much for this opportunity. Man, I know that you've got you live this life as well, and you're super passionate about it. So it so it was great chatting with you, and I'm honored to be on the show.
• 59:09
  So thank you for having me, and allow me share my story.
• 59:11
  That was my pleasure. And thank you. Yeah, cheers, perfect.
• 59:19
  Just stopped recording, so I think was a lot of fun. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.
• 59:25
  Yeah, where are you located?
• 59:27
  I live in Italy. I live in Italy. Yeah. I'm from Finland, living here 19 years now. Oh, wow. And what did you What sport did you play? I was ice hockey player.
• 59:41
  What was it? Ice hockey? Oh, ice hockey. Yeah. Ice Nice. In Italy, yeah. Obviously, grew up, grew up in Finland.
• 59:48
  There is a national sport back there. Then came as a professional to play Italy. Met here my wife, and here I am.
• 59:59
  That's awesome. Well, I'm Italian, so palarino, yeah, yeah, no, I thought that you have some you have family from here, or my great, great family like my mom.
• 1:00:08
  But, yeah, we've never been there, yet, my kids are dying to go, like my wife and I are trying to do next thing, next summer, we're going to do Greece and Turkey. Oh, nice, yeah, and then Italy will be after that.
• 1:00:24
  No, it's, it's so beautiful.
• 1:00:24
  It's so beautiful here, like, we have been traveling in many places, and it's still like, Italy is still like, you know, we every time when we go to somewhere, like, obviously, we live in Dolomites, it's, it's a beautiful mountain area here, but when we go live in Italy, it goes to Bolzano, like South Tyrol in the Dolomites.
• 1:00:52
  I'm going to see I have actually saved Avelino. Avelino is where my family Avelino, A, V, E, L, I, yeah. Where is that? I can now put the dots where it is. It is, let me see it's a region, or I can find it from here.
• 1:01:19
  Correction, I don't know it's I'm sure the map is, like, all weird. I just No, no, I got it. I got it, yeah, you see it, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, got it, got it. It's close to neighbors. Now it's beautiful there. And if you go from like there, like maples, Sorrento, Salerno, those places close to that they are so beautiful, so beautiful that coast, yeah, that that cost. You gotta go to Sorrento Capri in that area, like Naples is a beautiful and if you have, like that was, like, all that Amalfi Coast, and if you go from there, like we did a road trip when was the covid time on that side, that Amalfi Coast, and then went with the car over to other side, like, there is, like a polygnano amare, and that body, like, bigger, bigger city, like other side of the of the Italy, it's not too far to drive. So if you have a car, you can make around there. And it's, it's Apulia. Is that region. That's those two regions. They are so beautiful.
• 1:02:34
  You definitely gotta go there like it's nothing away. I have been many islands in Greece and Turkey, beautiful places, but nothing to compare with. Now, they'll definitely pick your brain. Then when we start exploring that, yeah, and so where your show is it? Where do you generally, generally post on Spotify, Apple Music. It's every everywhere, all platforms.
• 1:02:56
  It's Amazon, it's apple, it's Spotify, all like, I think, 50 different platforms, awesome. And then I'll send you a follow up email, and then when it releases, can you send me a copy of the raw video file, and I'll make some content for us?
• 1:03:13
  Yeah, for sure, for sure, I will. I will be. I'm planning to publish this next week, Thursday, so in a six days, and then I will send you copy from our video file, upload everything now and and would be awesome. And if you anything else we hear from email, yeah, and I'll, I'll go on there, make sure I give you a review, for sure. Because, oh, that that would be, I forgot, but that's what I have been doing.
• 1:03:42
  That's, that's the best thing.
• 1:03:42
  Like, if you go, it's called fit me to a fitness podcast. So that's the only thing, what you can impact. I don't know how many poor people, if listeners, are actually doing it, but if I ask all guests who are in show and leaving that review, written review in Apple and Spotify, that's those are helping so much. So thank you.
• 1:04:01
  I absolutely do that. I'll do that for you today or tomorrow the latest.
• 1:04:04
  Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you, brother. Have a great weekend and talk to you soon. You, too. Cheers, pipe it.