Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller: You’re Not Crazy. You’re Being Gaslit.

Transcript

Killer Thriller: You’re Not Crazy. You’re Being Gaslit. · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, a Lisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Okay,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: So lately on this show, we've been diving into stories
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: that are wild, shocking, and honestly a little bit too real,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: from gaslup by my husband to I Am Elizabeth Smart
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: to Joe versus Carol. There is a pattern that keeps
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: showing up again and again. And it's not just crime.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: It's control, it's manipulation, it's narcissism and gaslighting. And these
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: are the kinds of people who can They can charm you,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: confuse you, and completely rewrite your reality, sometimes without you
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: even realizing that it's happening. So today we're pulling back
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: the curtain on all of that. We are joined by
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: doctor Jamie Zuckerman, a clinical psychologist and expert in narcissistic abuse,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: and we're going to break down what we're actually watching
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: in these stories and how it shows up in real life,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: because once you see it, you can't unsee it. Doctor Jamie,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Killer Thriller.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Oh it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: So I have been noticing a pattern across all of
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: these stories that we have been talking about recently, whether
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: it's the criminals themselves or these just larger than life characters,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: and there definitely seems to be a thread of narcissism
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: running through a lot of them. So what does it
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: actually mean to be a narcissist from a clinical perspective?
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's a great question. So, as we know
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: from social media, it's being thrown all over everywhere and people.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: On the one hand, it's great people are learning about it.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: On the other hand, it's not so great because no
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: one really knows what it is anymore so from a
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: clinical standpoint, a narcissist when we talk about it on
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: a continuum, So at the very extreme, we have what's
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: called narcissistic person disorder that is a pervasive personality style
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: that infiltrates all aspects of that person's life. It's characterized
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: by intense grandiosity, right, It's characterized by an extreme lack
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: of remorse, lack of empathy. Everything is about control and power,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: So all of their behaviors at the very end of
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: the day, are all about obtaining control and power over
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: other people. They're extremely manipulative, they are extremely controlling and
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: quite frankly, they are aware and this is something I'm
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: sure we'll get to you, but they are aware of
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: what they're doing. Short answers know they don't care as
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: long as their needs are met.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: So why do so many criminals seem to have these traits?
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So when we look at criminology, what we find
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: is that in that cluster of personality disorders, particularly narcissistic
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: personality disorder, we have something called antisocial personality disorder, which
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: kind of if you think of narcisses them on a continuum, right,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: and at the extreme end we have that intense, malignant
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: narcissistic personality style. Right up next to that, we tend
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: to have antisocial personality disorder, which is what we think
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: of criminology. Like people that kill and do these horrific things,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: and they really bump up next to each other. They
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: are different in certain respects, but they do overlap, which
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: is why you'll see at the extreme end of narcissism,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: it tends to go into that.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Realm right right. So that's it's more than the average person.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: You know, it makes somebody more like with someone with narcissism,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: it makes them more likely to cross moral or legal lines.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, because the rules don't apply to them.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: And so even if you take somebody, let's say that's
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: kind of in the middle of that continuum, somebody who
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: has extreme narcissistic tendencies, they are very difficult to have
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: relationships with, whether that's a friend, a colleague, a family member,
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: a spouse. They make relationships so difficult. They make you
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: think you're going crazy. They make you think you're losing
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: your mind, and it's so up and down you don't
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: know which end is up. That's really when we when
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: we see these dysfunctional relationships, what we're talking about, when
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: you get into that extreme realm like I'm talking about,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: you get into that that kind of antisocial realm of things.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Right, So, how much of it of the narcissism is
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: about control versus insecurity, like a deep insecurity.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: So I'll answer to it. So it's all about control.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: At the end of the day. Everything they're doing is
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: what we call coercive control, coercing you into controlling you
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: through whatever means necessary. They could love bomb you, they
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: could they could threaten you, they could pretend to be
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: your best friend, whatever means works for you to give
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: up your control over to them. So there's that, right,
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: But then in addition to that, it's it is about
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: low esteem and insecurities. But I want to make it clear,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: all of us at some point worse than others. We
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: all have low self esteem, right, we all have insecurity height,
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: so you know, none of us are free from that.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: So keeping that in mind is not automatic that somebody
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: is going to develop narcissism or personality because of insecure
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: do most narcissists have extreme insecurities? Absolutely, And a lot
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: of these are compensatory strategies to kind of make up
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: for that or to avoid it for themselves.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Right, right, So what's that? I think for a lot
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: of people, they're how what is this? Is there a
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: distinct difference between somebody who's just very self involved and
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: somebody who is truly narcissistic?
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, so on the surface, the behaviors can look
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: very similar. Right. So I can seem so self absorbed,
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: you can seem so self absorbed. But when brought to
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: my attention, let's say, it's just a long pattern I've
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: had my entire existence because for whatever reason in my upbringing,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: that's just how I came to be I modeled my parents' behavior, whatever,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: or I did it because I had to survive childhood.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Whatever.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: If someone brings to my if you bring to my attention,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: like Jamie, you know what, every time I try to
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: talk to you about something important to me, you always
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: make it about yourself. All you care about is yourself.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: And I say, oh my god, I'm so I didn't
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: realize I did that, right, and I have some sense
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: of remorse. Right. It may be hard for me to
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: change it because it's.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: All I know.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: But I don't want to hurt you. Right Where somebody
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: who's narcissistic, it's always about them because you're just an object.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: You don't matter, your feelings, your concerns, How I'm hurting you,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: It doesn't, it doesn't. It's either here nor therapy because
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: it gives you nothing.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Wow. So there is a piece of just simple accountability
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: or awareness.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, great work. Yes, they I always tell people narcissists
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: do not have accountability. They will project onto others. They
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: will gaslight the crap out of you to make you
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: feel like somehow this is your fault and you're not
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: sure how that is, but it is. And so then
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: you're apologizing when you don't even know what you're apologizing.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: For, right right, right. So in in gas lit by
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: my husband, the Morgan Mester story, which I know you're
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: familiar with, and I spoke with Jenna, and I know
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: you've spoken with Jenna as well. Who I couldn't be
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: a bigger fan of her as a human being and
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: as an actress. But what really stood out to me
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: was how slowly the manipulation build over time. So at
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: what point does something like that cross into emotional abuse?
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: And I don't want to be hard to pay.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love this question. I love this question because
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: it's a very it's a big misconception that a lot
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: of people have. So I will say this in regards
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: to the to the movie. I'm very picky with the
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: I watched a ton of dot doc btteries and movies
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: about all this stuff. This was one of the most
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: well done movies that got it right, and there's few
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: and this they nailed it. And so and for one
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: of the reasons, it is exactly what you said that
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: it's this subtle, like long coming into you know, coming
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: to be right. And the reason for that is because
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: it's exactly how it works. It's that's why when people
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: come to me, they're like, I can't believe I didn't
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: see this. I'm like, there was literally no way for
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: you to see this, and before you even know what's
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: going on, you're too sucked in. Right, So it is
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: deliberate that it starts like this. There is no right
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't say, though. There's rarely a time when I'm
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: working with people where they can say this was the moment.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: They'll tell me this was their breaking point to leave.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: But they never tell me this moment. It is so subtle,
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: it is so calculated.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: As you're talking, it's like I'm hearing it like almost
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: like the weaving of a fabric. Right, and then all
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're in a sweater. Wait, yeah, you
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: didn't want to be wearing a sweater.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: I actually may steal that from you because I love that.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: I use the worst analogy. My analogy is that you
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: have a leak in your kitchen and you just say like, oh, whatever,
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: i'll deal with it later, I'll do it, and then
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: before you know it, you're seeing up to your waist
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: and water in your kitchen. You don't know how your gut,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: but yours is much better.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: So I take your thanks.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's but you know, make no mistake, it's
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: on purpose that it's like this. It's very it's very calculated,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: and so by the time you realize what's happening, there's
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: so many things put in place to make it difficult
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: for you to escape, right, And I say escape on purpose,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: not life.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because that is what it is, right, It's
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: not this question that people who really don't understand this
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: at all are always saying, like, well, why why didn't
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: she just leave? Or why didn't you It's like that's
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: just a complete lack of understanding of the dynamics of
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: the entire er. Well said, yes, scenario. So in this
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: film and in 's life, she slowly starts questioning her
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: own reality. So what is actually happening psychologically when somebody
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: gets to that point?
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it starts out. You know, people think love
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: bombing is is is you know, roses and calling all
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: the time and confessing their undying love and you're my
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: soulmate in all this, which it is and it can be.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: But love bombing really is figuring out what that person's
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: needs once interests are and matching them exactly on that. Right,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: So I could love camping. I don't, but I could
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: love camping right, and I meets it right, and I
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: meet somebody and they're like, you know, you know what
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: I would love to do one day? I would love
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: to go camping with you. And you're like, what right.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: So it's it's really kind of sneakly figuring out what
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: these persons needs are, what's missed in their development with
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: their family filling in all the holes. So you feel
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: like you're this puzzle piece, and so when you're in
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: that you become blindsided. It's like a tidal wave. I've
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: never had this before. I've never felt like this before.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: You're my soulmate and it's amazing. And who doesn't want that?
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Right? You feel seen result that way. I want to
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: be understood. We want to be seen and what we
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: really care about.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: And so you don't see it then. And so what
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: happens in that timeframe that's usually short, You make a
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: lot of decisions that are very long term in terms
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: of their impact, like moving in together very fast, interesting,
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: joining bank accounts very fast, all of these things that
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: seemed normal and natural. Yeah, fast, but normal and natural.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: But the reason why the narcissist is doing it that
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: way is so that they can continuously make your world
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: smaller while gaining access to you from all areas finances,
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: your housing, your cell phone, your car. I cannot tell
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: you how many times I have had people say, oh,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: like they want me to they want me to work
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: for them, so I'm going to leave and build my
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: business with them, And you're like, ah, right, so yeah.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: So a lot of that are to become their manager
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: and they start doing all their deals for them, and
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: it just everything goes south very quickly. So that happens,
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: and then things slowly start to shift, but not enough
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: where you can say, oh my god, I gotta get out.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: It's things like are you sure you really want to
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: go to work today? I mean, like your kid's homesick,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: they really want you right like you you don't want
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: to leave them with your mom. Or it could be
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: you know, you know your friend Jamie. I know you've
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: been friends with her forever, but there's just something about her.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: I just I can't put my finger on it. She
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: never did anything to me, but I don't know if
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: I trust her. So before you know what, they start
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: to isolate you further further, or you know, with finances
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: this is a big one. It'll be something like no, no, no, sweet,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: I'll do the taxes. Don't worry about you know how
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: you are with math, like, don't don't even worry about it.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: And so you give up your independence without even realizing
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: you're giving.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: It out under the guises of something being like a
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: gift or something being done. You're being taken care of
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: in some way. I literally, just in the three seconds
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: we've been talking, i'vem like, oh, three people that I've
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: known in my life. One boyfriend, one manager of a friend,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: and one the now ex wife of a friend. Like,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: thank goodness they are divorced. Now, it's really diabolical.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: It's diabolical.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: So how how do you know when someone is gaslighting you?
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, so you won't at first, So I like to
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: make that very crazy. You won't at first. What you'll
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: feel is confusion. You'll feel shame, you'll feel doubt, you'll
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: feel insecure, and you'll feel fearful, like you're losing your mind.
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: So it'll be subtle things like and and you know
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: for people listening that are like, oh not, everyone's bad
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: as a narcissist. And you know it's bigger than that.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: It's more than that. So it's it's this person will
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: deliberately hide your cell phone, make you look for it,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: make you think you've lost it you're going crazy, or
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: or hide your keys, or hit your car and then
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: blame you. I mean, all these little things. So these
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: things start to happen, or delete something from your from
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: your calendar, and you think you have plans. You swore
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: you had plans, but then you look and you're like, wait,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: I have no plans. And little things like that, so
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: you start to doubt your Saturday, which then turns into
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: are you all right? Maybe you should see a psychologist.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: I'm really worried about you. You seem so stressed out,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: like maybe you should not go out as much, maybe
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: you should quit your job or let me take charge
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: of this. And so, before you know what, you start
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: to believe this because here you have this caring.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Person and they sound reasonable.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: Like reasonable yeah, And so you start to feel embarrassed.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: So you start to limpit your your your your social network.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: And so what ends up happening is that you ends
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: up in this tiny, small bubble and your reality has
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: become so warped that you have to depend on your
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: abuser to define reality for you, because without them, you
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: are lost. And so that's what gaslighting really is.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: So are you just sort of mentioned a few, but
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: are there any other kind of particular phrases or behaviors
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: that people should immediately should like set up a red flag?
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, things like you know you're crazy, or you always
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: do this, or you know, something like that's not me,
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: right that you show a picture to them about you
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: said you were out with your friends, but I saw
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: you out with this one and here's a picture that's
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: not me. They must have photoshoped it. You know how
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: much they hate me. I hate that kind of stuff, right,
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: But again, the bigger ones that are kind of like
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: the hallmarks of this is you're crazy, you're losing your mind,
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: you know you need help, or you know, you take
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: their phone and you start going through it and you
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: find something and then they throw it back on you
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: and make you feel and then before you know what,
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: you're apologizing for going through their phone because you're crazy
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: in your psycho that.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Kind of stuff, right, So what do you do if
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: you suspect that you are in a relationship with someone
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: who is a narcissist or somebody who is gaslighting it,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: what do you actually do?
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is where you have to be very
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: careful and very safe because we know from the research
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: that one it takes about seven times on average for
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: somebody to leave a relationship like this seven seven.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is not easy for numerous reasons. They're tied financially,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: they're tied with kids, and the family courts with custody
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: do not favor the healthy parent, which is a whole
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: other issue, and so they're really kind of locked in there.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: So you want to first make sure that you have
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: somebody on the outside that you can confide in, and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: when you've been isolated for so long, that can be
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: really difficult. So I always tell family and friends whatever
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: you do is man as you may get it. Then
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: for going back and going back, just know that they
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: need you at some point and just tell them I
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: love you, I'll be there for you. That's the nice
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: because at some point they're gonna need you. Find somebody
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: that you can confide in, somebody that you can trust.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Know that you will never feel ready to leave. You
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: will never never feel super strong and ready to leave.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: You're gonna have to do this and feel scared to death.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: You want to make sure that you have everything you
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: possibly can lined up for your escape, meaning somebody to
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: stay with, access to funds, a prepaid calling card, a
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: prepaid credit card, you know, have a to go back
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: in your car with your passport and your license, any
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: important documents, your medicines, all of that kind of stuff,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: just just to have it. Those are the practical things
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: that people really need to have in place first before
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: they even make any kind of psychological effort.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's so. I mean, it's a lot.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: It's like you really have to be ready and willing.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's understandable. Why it takes so long? I mean,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: and you know, I was going to ask why is
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: this so hard for people to leave these relationships? But
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I mean I think we just you just and.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Also when particularly for women but men too, but when
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: you leave, that's the highest rate for physical violence is
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: when you're leaving or if they hear that you're leaving.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: So you have to be really careful.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Right, So in I am Elizabeth Smart, it's a very
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: different situation where but there is still control and manipulation
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: by her kidnapper and abuser. So how much of this behavior,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: especially all the religious doctrine that he spews out. How
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: much of that would you say is narcissism?
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a significant chunk of it, because if you look
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: at the way in which he manipulates her and also
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: his wife, you know right that it's very very much
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: this intense coercive control, intense isolation from everybody in the
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: world basically, right, So it's just his doctrine, it's just
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: his words that they have to exist by. So it's
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: very much control based, it's very much power based. We
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: see this a lot in cult dynamics, you know, and
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: it begs the question, you know, he thinks he's a prophet.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: When you're at that extreme, Yes, when you are that grandiose, yeah,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: you people will believe that. They will believe that story. Now,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: how much of his own preachings does he believe? Who knows?
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: It may not necessarily matter. What matters is that he
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: has isolated them so much, scared them so much that
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: their ability to leave it's like they don't even it's
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: not even an option. It becomes something they don't even
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: think about or consider.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: Right, it's not actually a part of reality. So right,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: so do people in those situations like Elizabeth, they start
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: to adapt in ways that outsiders, people like you and
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: I we might not understand.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, right, yes, And that's why it's so confusing for
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: people who leave these relationships, whether it's an abusive intimate relationship,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: a family member, or cult, whatever the case may be.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: It is so difficult for other people to say, like,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: why wouldn't you just leave? But what they're forgetting is
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: that if there's actual neurological changes that occur in your brain, right,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: there's actual cognitive changes that occur in your brain that
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: make it impossible to see otherwise.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Right, So what like in Elizabeth Smart's case, she was
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: captive for nine months? So what happens psychologically when somebody
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: is controlled for that long?
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So one is your your fight or flight response, right,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: which is what we have to innately keep us alive
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: and survive. When you're in those types of environments, you
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: kind of go on to this freeze mode, right, And
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: it's a form of self protection. And so when you're
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: in that freeze mode, you don't act, and so we
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: see that a lot unfortunately in sexual assaults. Right, White
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: people don't fight back. It's their body literally does what
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: their body thinks is the best thing to do to
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: protect them in that moment. And so when you have
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: that response coupled with if you leave, I'll kill you. Your
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: family doesn't love you, nobody's looking for you, right, you're
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: so limited in your in your response options, and then neurologically,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: your brain starts to reset itself for survival. It's all
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: you can do. And so you're you're you're basically resetting
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: yourself for survival. So your options become really only what
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: your brain can allow you.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: To think of.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: And that's why people feel stuck and why so hard
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: for other people I get.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: To get it right right, It literally changes the reality
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: of your own reality. So what is the is there
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: or is there a moment or a point where the
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: those survival instincts really do take over and then it
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: changes how they respond, like what is that? Is that
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: a is that a particular moment or Yeah?
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: So when I work with people who are in these relationships,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: the I would say that the biggest thing, the biggest
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: light switched moment that I have with people is once
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: they are able to and this takes a long time,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: but once they're able to see the patterns. Because here's
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: the one thing the playbook of a narcissistic dynamic is
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: so obvious once you see it. It is so textbook,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: and so for one of the most destructive styles out there,
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: it really is the most predictable. And so once a
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: survivor sees those patterns, you absolutely one cannot unsee it.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: And so once they're able to not only predict the behavior,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: but know what it is and know why it's happening,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: then they start to be caught untouchable and they slowly
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: start to if this is them with the narcissists, right,
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: and they slowly start to separate, allowing them to see
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: it for what it is, and that's when you really
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: want to start to make your moves at that point,
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: right right, it's a very in therapy at least, it's
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: a very AHA moment for people because it gives them
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: so much empowerment in that moment to know that, oh
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: my god, wait, this has nothing to do with me.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: This is a pattern. Okay, so I know when I
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: do this, they're going to do this, so I know
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: how I need to respond to this, and before you
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: know it, that understanding of that blueprint is what actually
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: gives you the ability to eventually leave.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I mean that's what Elizabeth Smart actually did, where she
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: manipulates him and says, yes, I think God is telling
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: us to go back to Utah and put it sort
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: of into his hands. God's telling you to do this
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: because you're or the one that needs And then he says, oh,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: you're right, that is what we should do. I mean
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: it's really incredible.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: You make them think it was their idea. You make
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: them think that you need them, You make them think
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: that you know that they're in control of you. Once
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: you see that and you can twist it, then you
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: can start to separate yourself.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: So are there warning signs, even in less extreme situations
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: that control is escalating in a dangerous way.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I like to start from I call it
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: preventive medicine. I like to start from the very beginning.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: So if you're on a date with somebody, or you
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: meet somebody in business, or you meet a new friend,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: and you start to see the behaviors like love bombing. Right,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: So the non stop calling, make plans, they seem to
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: just get you so quickly. If you hear the word
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: you're my soulmate, you run for the hills. I put
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: that out as a blanket statement. You know, they don't
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: even know your middle name, but yet somehow you're their soulmate.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: If you start doing things like you're planning your wedding
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: and it's how cute, and we're gonna name our kids this,
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: this and this and this is gonna be our dog
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: and no, because that's not our You don't know anybody
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: well enough to be their soulmate, right, You don't know
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: anyone yet. You don't know how they operate, you don't
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: know how they argue, and so those are red flags
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: from the very beginning. And the way I tell people
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: to check is tell the person that you're stick one day.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: And I used to get so much crap for this,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: But tell the person you're sick and you need to
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: cancel plans, and see what their response is. Do they
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: ghost you? Do they get angry at you? Do they
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: show up at your house anyway with flowers and soup
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: and say, I you know, I'm here to make you
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: feel better?
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: How do they respond?
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Right?
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Do they hear what you're saying, which is I am
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: not well, I'm going to rest today, I don't I
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: don't want to be together?
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Right? Yes?
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: See how they talk to waiters and waitresses. See how
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: they talk to talk about their exes?
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: How do they talk about their family? Do they have friends?
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Like all these little things that when things are so good,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: you may not really pay attention to, right.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: So okay, So thinking about someone like Joe Exotic and
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Joe V. Carroll, So he is this person who's very
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: charismatic in a in a very unique sort of a way,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: but is also very controlling. And is that a common
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: combination with narcissism.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So within within narcissism and that cliga, in that
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: cluster of personality disorders, oftentimes we see this kind of
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: histrionic which is that very just you know, as you said,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: just kind of this ridiculous.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Performative and demonstrative.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we we see that a lot with certain types
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: of narcissists, not all, but but that's that's common. Yes, Now,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: does that automatically align with being controlling? No, it doesn't,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: it doesn't. But but again, it's not uncommon to see
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: those kind of those things overlap. But but but alone
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: by itself doesn't mean that they're narcissistic, and a narcissist
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: alone by themselves won't mean they're necessarily histrionic in that respect.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, so how do you know when manipulation is
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: happening versus just a difficult personality? Yes, sometimes my husband
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: might say I'm a difficult personality.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Mine never says.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: He'll be wrong, but he obviously.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: What do they mean? No? So, so, so here's here's
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: the here's the real difference in those is that Again,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: as I said before, we all grew up with patterns,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: either patterns that we modeled from our caregivers or patterns
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: that we did in opposition to our caregivers. But the
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: way we are in our world up till a certain
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: point really is based on our development. We do the
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: things we do because the patterns. We are experts at
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: our patterns. We can do our patterns the best out
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: of anybody else. And so we may be difficult, but
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: not narcissistic. If just our patterns annoy other people or
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: they just don't make for the easiest relationships, that doesn't
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: mean you're a narcissist. It just may mean you have
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: toxic in our personal patterns or you're using in our
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: personal patterns. It worked great for you growing up, and
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: that's how you got through it, and that's how you
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: survived fast forward into adulthood when that context is no
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: longer present. But yet we're still using the same inner
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: personal styles. We're gonna feel like we start to hit
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: a wall. That's not narcissism. That's not that, because it's
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: with this is if your husband sat you down and
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: said to you, listen, when you do this. In this,
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: you're hurting me. Right, You're gonna feel horrible. You're not
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: gonna want to do it. Will It be hard and
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: difficult to change, of course, But that's different. The purpose
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: of your behaving, the way you're behaving, has nothing to
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: do with gaining control, access, and manipulation to him. It's
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: just about this is how you ask for your needs
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: to be met or this is all you know, and
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: you can change that. With a narcissist, however, their actions,
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: the function, or the underlying reason behind everything they do
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: is always going to be about control, power and dominance
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: over another person. Always. It's just dressed up in various
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: ways brought to their attention. What are you talking about?
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: You know you're crazy. I didn't do that. That's not
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: what I said. All the gas lighting type things, right,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: you need help? You know you do this with everybody,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: this is why you have no friends, Like why would
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: I hide your phone on purpose? Like what is wrong
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: with you? That kind of stuff. So they have no
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: intention of changing. Ever, they have no remorse, they have
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: no empathy, and their goal is to control and manipulate you,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: not because this is all they know. But when brought
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: to their attention, they don't want to be like this anymore.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Right, So I was going to ask, can narcissists actually
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: love someone in a healthy way? But it sounds like
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: that's a no.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: They can't. And you know, I know there's people say
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: I get this all the time, like you're a psychologist,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: how could you say this? That's so horrible. Everybody can
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: change and you're stigmatizing that.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: I'm not.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: I'm just reporting the behaviors. And I can tell you
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: that in all my years of practicing I have I
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: have never seen a narcissist change, only never. The only
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: times I have ever seen a narcissist change is when
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: they're pretending they have changed because they need to get
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: something from family court, or because they need to get
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: out of some sort of trouble, or they're trying to
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: reconcile with their ex because they want to get back
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: in and control them. They they have cognitive empathy, which
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: means they know how they're supposed to feel and they
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: know what they're supposed to think. So they're able to
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: mimic it, but they don't feel it and they don't
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: think it.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: It's still to get the result that they want. Yes, yes,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, that is so intense.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: They know they know what they're doing. And that's the
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: hardest pill for people to swallow, because then we have
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: to accept, oh my god, they're willingly evil, right like,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: they're willingly hurting me, they're willingly abusing me what like.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: And so I know a lot of people have a
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: hard time with that. I understand why, but I and
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I think if you spoke to my colleagues they would
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: say the same thing, that the likelihood of somebody changing
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: is it's very slimple what you will find. You have
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: self aware narcissists all the time that are on Instagram
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: social media talking about what it's life like. Is a
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: narcissist and that's not because they've changed.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Wait is that real? Is that a thing?
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: There was a whole like New York Times. I think
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: it was not New York Times, The New Yorker or
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: one of them. There was this huge article with all
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: these famous social media influencers self aware narcissists. Now one
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: or two of them. I follow, not because I think
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: they've feeled, but because hearing their perception of why they
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: do what they do gives me insight as a psychologist.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Right right, they haven't.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Changed, no, and then they're getting attention for it, which
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: is just feeding the fire, feeling the fire exactly exactly.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: So for someone who's listening, who might be questioning their
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: own relationship, what is one thing they should pay attention
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: to right away?
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Ask themselves what immediately comes up for them in their
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: gut when they think about setting a boundary with this person.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: And if it's interesting, if it's one of fear, or
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: your body just goes into this like h feeling, or
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: you get you know, it's that overwhelming anxiety, that's something
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: to pay attention to.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: That's such a good that is such a good gauge.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know what would happen if you
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: went outside the general status quo that the narcissists set
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: for you. I'm going to go out with my friends tonight.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: What happens? Right? Do you come home? And the doors locked.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Do you come home your closer outside. Do they call
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: you non stop the whole entire night to ruin the
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: night just because they don't have control over you anymore?
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Do they feign sickness? Like what what happens?
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah? So what is one myth about narcissism or
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: gaslighting that you really want people to stop believing.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: That narcissists are attracted to weak people? They are nuts.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: They are attracted to very smart, successful, attractive, strong people.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: And the reason for that, Yeah, the reason for that
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: is because and this still to this day it gives
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: me chills on the back of my neck when I
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: explain this, But a narcissist's whole aim is to gain
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: power and control over somebody else. Their primary goal is
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: to suck this person dry of their entire sense of
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: self until they are nothing, which is why suicide rates
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: are oddly higher within these types of dynamics, because the
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: person is just just vaporized, so to speak. You can't
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: get all of that from somebody who starts out with
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: low self esteem. There's nowhere for them to fall, and
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: so they take everything that this person has that they want.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: They take everything their success, their intelligence, their energy, all
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: of it and just suck them dry until there's nothing left.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: If they start with somebody that has low self esteem,
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: well they don't get anything from that. Their goal is
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: to watch them fall by the time the relationship has
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: progressed or is at the end of the relationship. Now
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: we see somebody who has no self esteem, right, sense
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: of self, no identity. But that's because of the relationship.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: That wasn't the industry, right, that's not how they began.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: No, they are drawn towards people that are empathetic, yes, absolutely,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: but they are not drawn to weak people or people
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: with low self esteem. So I think that's a huge
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: myth that people.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Oh so, once someone has experienced this kind of relationship,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: then how do they rebuild that trust in themselves.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: It's really hard. It's a really long long process because
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: not only do they have to you know, I think
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: one of the saddest things I have ever heard from
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: a patient after she got out of the relationship was,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: you know, she said to me, She's like, I gotta
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: be honest. She goes, I have no idea who I am.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: I feel like a shell of my former self, which
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: we hear all the time. She goes I don't even
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: know what kind of ice cream I like.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it breaks you down so much that you
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: don't even know. You don't even know what music you like.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: You don't know what kind of movies you like, you
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: don't know what's your favorite color, you don't know how
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: you like to dress, and so you have to totally
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: rebuild yourself and it's a really long process, and you
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: doubt yourself and you don't trust people, and it really
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: is a level of trauma that is really really deep.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: And I don't think people understand that. And I think
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: the worst. I don't know if it's worse. I guess
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: it's the way you look at it. Those are intimate relationships.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Think about growing up with a narcissistic parent. You never
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: had a sense of identity. You were always told who
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: to be. So if you cut ties from a narcissic
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: family member, now you're really starting from scratch. You don't
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: have a pre existing you. So it depends on the
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: relationship type. But I will say this, it is not
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: all doom of bloom. It is very hard, but there
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: is a light at the end of the tunnel, and
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: once you get that empowerment and once you're able to
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: figure out who you are and who you want to
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: be and what you want to shift, and you realize
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: that's totally in your control. Then you really start to
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: feel strong. And I have never met people stronger in
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: my life than people who have survived narcissistic abuse. They are.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's so interesting because I've been so struck
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: by the people that, like Elizabeth Smart and I interviewed
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Sarah Edmonton who was in the next same called, and
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: you know, people that have overcome these things and turned
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: them into something powerful and meaning. It is like these women,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: especially those are the ones I've spoken to. They've all
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: been women Amanda Knox, you know, a different situation but
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: still gone through something so intensely tragic. And the power
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: that these people have that is really it's just a centered, grounded,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: extraordinary thing like that. I am just so impressed by.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: I could not agree more. I could not agree more.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: And I tell them when they get to that point
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: and you can look at this and feel so almost
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: I don't recognize that person, you know, And you'll get
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: to that point and you'll know that you've feeled but
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: I could not agree with you more. It's the strongest
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: people I have ever encountered in my life.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, I'm at doctor Jamie. This has been amazing you.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: I have thoroughly enjoyed this. You are a wealth of
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: knowledge and so articulate, and I feel like this is
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: a really will an incredible challenging topic. You're you talk
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: about it in a way that's very digestible. Pieces that
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: are there, they're they're applicable and you know, understandable. So
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate this and your time. So you can
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: get in touch with doctor Zuckerman. You could buy her books,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: learn about her coaching and therapy services on her website
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: doctor Jamie Zuckerman dot com, or visit her YouTube channel
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: at doctor Jamie Zuckerman. It's j A, I M E. Jamie.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time today. Is there
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: anything else you want to say?
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: No, just thank you for talking about this topic. It's
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: it's so important, especially you know, with everything being watered
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: down about it. So I'm really, you know, just thankful
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: for you for doing this. You'll help a lot of people.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: So thank you.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Great, my pleasure. It's been wonderful to meet you. Thank
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: you so much.