Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / REMIX: Album 5 Track 22 – Head of International at Zoom, Abe Smith – Care-Driven Leadership w/Global Impact

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REMIX: Album 5 Track 22 – Head of International at Zoom, Abe Smith – Care-Driven Leadership w/Global Impact · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• DC: What's happening, Brand Nerds. I have to say now, um, there's a bit of a news flash. Yesterday was the third day in a row that earth broke its temperature for heat, the third consecutive day. And Brand Nerds, for those of you all who do not believe that something ha is happening with our climate. Bless you; but something's happening with our climate. LT: Yes. DC: But to make a Yeah, Larry, but to make a connection to that. We got a hot show. LT: That's right. DC: This is a hot show today, Brand Nerds. I'm gonna list off a couple of things to give you an example. Kleenex. Bandaid. Ping Pong popsicle. LT: I know where you're going. DC: Jet. Jet ski. Yeah. Larry, you see where I'm going? Yeah. Velcro. So Brand Nerds, you may think of these words as categories. Give me a Kleenex so I can have something to pat my nose or gimme a Bandaid so I can put something on the abrasion that I have on my hand or on my finger. But each of these Brand Nerds, these are not just categories, these are brands. And each of these brands define an entire category and have for decades. And Brand Nerds in the building today, LT is someone who knows a little something about that. LT: That's right. DC: LT, who do we have in the building with us today, please? LT: Oh, DC We have, uh, My good friend Abe Smith in the house today. Welcome, Abe. Abe Smith: Hey, good to see you both. Thank you for having me. I, I feel inspired by DC's introduction. I feel hot all of a sudden. I dunno if I should, should, LT: you should. Ok. Alright. Abe Smith: It's not the temperature, it's just all DC in this. LT: Okay. So Brand Nerds DC did a great setup here. So we gotta go straight to Abe's wonderful background and you'll see where DC was going. Uh, straight up, we have another great guest who's a friend of the show and someone who is a true testament about working hard and treating people well, which leads to great success as a C-level tech leader here in Silicon Valley. Let's get into Abe's fantastic background. Abe is a born at bred Boston guy who matriculated at the University of Massachusetts, where he earns a degree in political science with an international relations certification. So D, Abe's first job is actually teaching English in a small rural town in Japan. DC: Oh wow. LT: Yeah, this is all relevant by the way. Wow. So Abe, Abe then comes back to Boston where he works for Heroics Corporation and enterprise system software. Take no Brand Nerds, how these first jobs both become foundational to Abe's career. So Abe's next move is to Petrovsky International and St. Louis, dealing with new in-store food service products and restaurant pizza kiosk for QSR, where he works his way up to be Director of Sales and Marketing. Highlights include sales increases of 425%, 200%, 80% in successive years, and personally winning clients and 42 states and five countries. So, not bad. DC: Not not bad. A not bad. LT: Okay, we're starting, we're starting with some hot though Abe Smith: We're not hot yet. Some results. None. No heat on this. LT: There's heat, there's heat. So now Abe makes the move to Silicon Valley. First as Director of Marketing and Sales at Vision Planner, and then moves over to WebEx, which was really one of the first leaders in video conferencing. Again, take note about that Brand Nerds. Abe makes an immediate impact we're in his first month of selling. He wins the prestigious Top Gun Selling Award with 238% of quota. He eventually works his way up to his first international specific assignment where he becomes Senior Director of Sales for APAC, Japan, and Latin America, and achieves over 100% of the annual goal. And WebEx is then bought by Cisco. At Cisco, Abe quickly becomes an important player in the international scene where he, he becomes Senior Director of Emerging Markets where he was responsible for sales, growth and strategy in India, Asia Pacific, Japan, Africa, and the Middle East, Eastern Europe, and Latin America, where his teams consistently achieve great results. So, D, Abe then gets a call to be VP GM for Americas and Asia Pacific at Mindjet, an innovation management software company where he is hired to build a go-to market sales strategy and build out world-class sales organization, as Abe always does, he makes an immediate impact by growing sales by 50% in his first year, and he is then promoted to SVP where he is awarded a Stevie Award for National VP of Sales of the Year. So after Mindjet is acquired by Corell Software, Abe moves on to Badgeville, a global leader and gold standard for gamification as their VP of Biz Dev and Channel Alliances. Cool gig, but Abe gets a really big opportunity to join Oracle. Yes, Oracle as their Group VP of Sales Emerging markets, as Abe always does. He and his team kill it at Oracle, where they consistently drive outstanding results. So, all right, D in The Bay, if you're killing it at Oracle, there's a lot of pressure, but it's a nice gig. But check this out. Mm-hmm. It gets a fantastic opportunity to join Cision, the market leader, transforming the PR communications industry in the cloud as President of Europe, Middle East, India, Africa, based in London. DC: Mm-hmm. LT: Where he was responsible for over 2000 employees and approximately 30% of the 700 million plus business for this New York Stock Exchange Publicly Traded Company. While SJ was super cool, Abe and his family really wanted to be back here in The Bay and check this out. Note this date in January, 2019, Abe joined Zoom as their Head of International, where Abe and his team have driven crazy record record results since. So that's right. Brand Nerd Zoom. That's what DC was alluding to. Mm-hmm. So, yes, he has some very interesting stories from March of 2020 and beyond. So welcome to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Abe Smith. Abe Smith: Well, tha thank you. Thanks, uh, LT and thanks DC for having me. I have to say, I think if my mother had given me an introduction, it would probably be less, it would be less gratifying to hear than what you do. So thank you for LT: Rest in peace for your mom. Abe Smith: So I appreciate it. Thank you. It's, it's a pleasure to be here and, uh, it's, uh, it's great to talk brand with you both. DC: Thank you. Uh, Abe. Yeah. Larry is a savant at, uh, presenting people with their flowers. And oftentimes, as you well know, Abe, we don't get to hear things like this until we are in a box. So this is, this is nice to, you're hearing it now. You're, you're hearing it now. Alright, Abe Smith: so very generous. DC: Next section is called Get Comfy and, uh, LT, I got two. I got two here and Get Comfy. Normally we only do one Abe, but I was noticing something as... LT: It's not an "oh oh, Abe." But it's easy. Abe Smith: Not just one, but two. DC: Not, not just one, two. Okay. So on the one hand, We hear about these large juggernaut companies called Cisco and Oracle, and now Zoom, on the other hand, we have Vision Planner, Mindjet, and I don't know how how large, uh, Cission is. It's, uh, Cission is, um, I don't know if that's mid-cap, small cap, large cap. Abe Smith: It's about 700 million or so. Yeah, about 700 million. DC: Okay. Right. Okay. So different than an Oracle or Cisco or, or Zoom. How, how have you been able to, to play this small company, big company, small company thing? How, how has that been for you as you've gone through your, your career? Abe Smith: Yeah, it's a, yeah, it's a great question. You know, in many ways I'm attracted to, to high growth and really more in the entrepreneurial side. But to be honest with you, like even in Oracle, which is a good example, large company, uh, But almost an incubated eff effort to build the cloud business inside of Oracle. Got it. So in some ways you can look at it, DC, almost like, um, the, probably the biggest venture capitalists in the world was Larry Ellison at the time, and he was really committed to developing cloud infrastructure for the company and applications that supported that kind of work. So, uh, we were a bunch of renegade cloud guys and girls inside of the company. And so it felt very, uh, as much as you could, it felt pretty entrepreneurial inside of that organization. It was really around, you know, groundbreaking efforts across the world. And similarly, I I would say even in Cisco, uh, we were an acquired asset at WebEx. Yeah. And it was a lot about, you know, learning a bigger company and there's mechanics that, that give you a lot of strength and reach. And then certainly at the same time it was about teaching. And helping to educate what the cloud meant, uh, at a very early stage, it was 2007. So as you can imagine, like it was early days of the cloud and business applications, particularly in a company like Cisco, were pretty new. DC: Mm-hmm. Abe Smith: So there was a nice, uh, good balance of, uh, of both. And you, you know, I think at the end of the day, it's all about who you work with and the kinda work that you do. LT: So True. Abe Smith: So you can find the kinds of companies that have the same values and, uh, DC: ah, that's good. Abe Smith: I think, I think it works out well. That's been my experience so far. I mean, I don't know if you, you, I know you both have been involved with very big places yourself and some, you know, some small startups too, and Yeah. Have you found the same, same, same experience? DC: Uh, larry? Uh, I, I certainly have. How, how about you LT? Yeah. I'd LT: love, see, this is one of the reasons why I love Abe. Notice Abe went to the people. DC: Yes. LT: And I think it really matters, Abe, you know, with one specific situation, with the people that you actually work most with. Abe Smith: Yeah. LT: So you can be with big Company X and you happen to be with at, at that point in time with a great group of folks. Yeah. Where 10 years later or 10 years before you, people could have been in the same place, but it was not a great group. And so, yeah. You know, I think one of the things that you've done incredibly well is you've, you've had people lead the way, literally and figuratively. And, and so I would agree with what you said. It's about who you're working with. Abe Smith: Yeah. Yeah. And I've been fortunate. I mean, there's been some really great people that have come into my life and, you know, I haven't done, uh, I guess I've been lucky not, not, not to do things so, so bad that, uh, we've been able to, to do more together. So that's been the best part of it. Best part. LT: Right. DC: Yeah. So my connection into what, uh, what you're saying, a uh, values. So finding a place to work, cuz you're gonna spend more time doing that than you're gonna spend sleeping. Yeah. So may as well do it with folks that have a similar value, uh, similar values to, uh, to your own. But then, uh, LT, Abe said another thing when he was describing his, um, his time at, um, at, uh, at Oracle, he said there were, there were, we were a bunch of renegades. LT: Mm-hmm. DC: And we were finding a way to build the cloud inside of this big company. And so what what I think is important about that Brand Nerds, is Abe has some understanding of intrinsically what he's about. And so because he knew he was a renegade, he knows he has to be in high growth situations. So you first need to know what's inside of you before you can determine where you are to go. So that's my, uh, takeaway from there. Next question in Get Comfy, Abe. Abe Smith: Okay. DC: Um, I'm gonna tell a, a very brief story to set up this next question. So, as you know, Larry and I, as well as our business partner, Jeff, we've all spent time at the Coca-Cola company. Yes. So I was there when the iconic Roberto Goizueta was the CEO. Abe Smith: Yes. DC: And Don Keough was the Chief Operating Officer. So these are icons of the business world, uh, even, even today. Even today. Rest in power to, to them both. So in 1984, before I got to Coca-Cola, as many of the Brand Nerds know, Coke released New Coke. So they got rid of the regular Coke and they did New Coke. So this is a, the arguably the largest marketing debacle in the history of marketing. All time. All time. And, and so, uh, sometimes during these all hands meeting, they didn't call 'em that then, but you get everybody together in this auditorium at Coca-Cola, we would, we would have a conversation about that moment so that we could remember and not repeat our mistakes. And one of the questions that someone asked Don Keough Abe, on, he's on stage, and this is the early nineties, they said, uh, because of the fact that when you returned back to Coke Classic, the growth went off the charts. To your point, high growth company said, did you all do that in intentionally? Was that an intentional move? This is a reasonable question. So Larry knows where I'm going here. So Don Keough he looks, he kind of chuckles. He says, we're not that smart and we're not that dumb. Okay? This, this is, this, this is point. Okay. So, uh, I go to you in timing, uh, Abe. Two companies. I thought with the pandemic, I'm like, these are pandemic companies, Amazon and Zoom. Okay. So you can't make that up. You're not that smart. You're not that dumb. Alright, so what was it like for you? You're coming in in January of '19 and it's less than 18 months later, Abe, and you're looking at the pandemic. What was that like for you? Abe Smith: I mean, the pandemic was, uh, crazy, you know, so I, I'd say in the same way that you set up the discussion DC on, on Coca-Cola, there's probably a little bit of background. We knew we were building a great company. So let's you know, let's start there. I think when I joined, when I joined Zoom, uh, in 2019, the company was growing at a hundred percent year over year profitably. Wow. Wow, wow. And it was, uh, when we issued the S one, it was pretty clear that this is a different kind of company that had financial discipline actually was disrupting a very mature industry. So video conferencing was wildly available, whether it was with Microsoft Skype or Cisco WebEx or DC: Yep, yep. Abe Smith: LogMeIn products or whatever. I mean, there were a variety of choices, FaceTime, et cetera. So, uh, Eric Yuan, our CEO and founder, was pretty bold to say, Hey, I think something different is needed. And that the macroeconomic trends in the market were suggesting that well before the pandemic. DC: Mm-hmm. Abe Smith: So, you know, when we, when the company IPO'ed in 2019, it was a very successful IPO, it's PR actually one of the most successful in, in 2019. DC: Mm-hmm. Abe Smith: And we, you know, we had high expectations. So, you know, going into 2020, which was a pandemic year, The company was just over $600 million in revenue and we had guided the market at about $950 million. So roughly 55, 50 4% year over year growth, which is aggressive even in the cloud. Yeah. DC: Mm-hmm. Abe Smith: Uh, you know, suffices to say that year we ended up going from $600 million to $2.7 billion in one year, which was unprecedented. But, you know, the, LT: Can you repeat that again Abe? Abe Smith: Yeah. It was over $600 million to about $2.7 billion in a year. So, I mean, it was, it was actually the fastest growth for enterprise software company ever in the history of enterprise software. But inside the tornado, you know what was interesting and, and, and you all appreciate this cuz you, you've worked for such iconic companies, We actually felt when the pandemic started to, to show itself. And for me, actually, I saw tea leaf signs early, because you gotta remember, I managed the international business. Mm-hmm. So, you know, we were si starting to see some of the rumblings in Asia early. DC: Oh yeah. Abe Smith: And, you know, it's a bit of the wave that happens if you will. LT: Right. Abe Smith: And actually, you, you might recall one of the first markets that really got impacted was Italy too. So it it, LT: Yes. Abe Smith: Transposed over into Europe pretty quickly. And in the US it was a question of like, well, is this really gonna turn out to be something that's, you know, global? Or what is this? LT: Right. Abe Smith: Mm-hmm. Uh, but when it, when it hit and it hit hard and fast, the company really felt in a very mission driven position. So, you know, one of the things that was so amazing about the period and there, you know, it's been a rollercoaster ride, so you can talk about moments of just the highest, you know, the highest highs and the lowest lows. Mm-hmm. And a lot of like fatigue and stamina in different ways that we'd never experienced before. But most people on the team just said, Hey, look, you know, the world is calling and what's so great about a leader like Eric Yuan is, he was very purposeful in how we thought. And the thought was, you know, it's our obligation. You know, the world is calling, it's our obligation to see what we can do. And that meant, you know, things like educational continuity. I mean, there were hundreds of millions of, of kids that frankly, you know, couldn't go to a physical school. So overnight we had to, you know, we had to move, you know, millions and millions and millions of, of students from the, you know, the classroom to the kitchen table or, you know, same thing at a business level. You know, we would get a call on a, on a Friday, you know, we have 150,000 employees, we're gonna move them all to remote access. Go. DC: Mm-hmm. Abe Smith: You know, it, the stories were just endless. And I think. The guiding principle was, number one, a very mission driven approach from the company. Mm-hmm. Everybody rallied around the moment and there was a lot of, uh, how we operated was somewhat in a triage fashion. So like every day there were standups. When we faced a problem, we dealt with it as a group together immediately. And what was beautiful about the moment was it was just an absolute interconnection of people that's knew to do the right thing. And mm was what was highly relevant in the moment. Like, I'll give you an example, and again, this is where leadership plays into the, the discussion. I was meeting with my international leaders and it was about 11 o'clock at night in California, which is where I'm based. And you know, my team is spread out throughout the world, so it's never a good time for anybody. And we were getting on the call to really discuss about the business and how we're gonna continue to go forward. And I was talking with Eric, our CEO prior to, and I said, Hey Eric, do you mind coming into the meeting and just, you know, sending a couple of words so the team understands what you're thinking at the moment and you gotta understand what was interesting during the pandemic. Again, the highs and the lows were Zoom became first the savior and somewhat a little bit vilified because you know, Eric, Eric himself faced incredible xenophobia at times. There was tremendous pressure around, you know, uh, uh, China and other activities outside of the United States. Yeah, yeah. So and so forth. And Eric came into the meeting that night and he said something I'll never forget, and it's become really iconic in just how I think and, and frankly how the company thinks. He walked into the meeting and said, look, you know, I'm gonna ask you guys one question, cuz I asked myself this. I looked in the mirror and I asked myself, I asked my 20 years self, when I look back 20 years from now, did I do the right thing? Simple, did I do the right thing? Did I help schools when they needed it? And I didn't ask how we did it. So when 25 countries asked for the service for free, or we provided the service for free for their schools in 25 different countries, millions and millions students, you know, we, we rose to the call. You know, when, when the question was asked like, how do we deliver medicine and health? Eric never stopped and said, we can't figure it out. His answer was, we will figure it out. So you know that question around ask yourself, how do you act? How do you respond? And did, can you ask yourself one simple question, did you do the right thing? Which is, so again, back to our values point was just based on the right, right philosophy. So, you know, we went from, in a very quick period in January of 2020, 10 million daily meeting participants on the platform, which is a very, very highly trafficked platform. In fact, at the time, one of the highest, if not the highest, in web and video conferencing to. Four months later, over 300 million daily meeting participants concurrent on the platform to give you an idea. It's like social network levels, like Facebook and otherwise. So it's a, it was a tremendous, it was a tremendous validation on the strength of the technology, which was, and the theoretically speaking, we had said, hey, you know, we think we have unlimited capacity, but if we never tested it, right? So it was tested overnight, almost like in a petri dish. So an incredible feat of, of, of technical prowess, which included some of our partners like Amazon you mentioned, with AWS, which provided us public cloud elasticity, Oracle, OCI which became a very critical partner on the cloud, again, cloud elasticity. DC: Mm-hmm. Abe Smith: And then just all the employees from, uh, salespeople to customer success, to technical support to marketing folks, et cetera. And I think, you know, when you get back to the brand side, it really endeared people to the brand. I mean, uh, sure. What's interesting about Zoom before the pandemic, you know, I would walk into an airport lounge with a Zoom shirt on and you know, this was well before the pandemic. People would be like, wow, I love that product. You guys are great. Thank you. I mean, never had I had somebody thank me. Yeah. For, for, you know, the use of our software. Wow. I was like, this is something different. And then I think during the pandemic there was a lot of like gratitude from our customers where one, number one, they started to create a connection in the brand with the brand in a different way. It became how they connected. LT: Yes. Abe Smith: And you know, where we focus now on our brand messaging is around human connection. And, you know, our, our feeling is we can really connect humans in ways that they never thought possible. In some, in some ways, the silver lining of the pandemic was it taught us what was possible. It taught us that we could learn remotely. It taught us that we could connect with parents and friends on a Friday night virtually. It taught us that, you know, I could receive medical care from a practitioner without ever physically going into his or her office. So there are a lot of silver linings and I mean, that's a long answer. And it was a very intense period. And the rollercoaster ride continues, you know. But, um, for that moment, uh, we felt, uh, you know, we felt really good about the work that we were doing. And at the end of the day, we did the best we could to serve the world. LT: Abe, that that's why podcasts are what they are. We want that long answer. It was amazing. That took us, if I felt like you took us under the hood of what you guys were experiencing at that time. Abe Smith: Yeah. LT: And of course, you and I have had these conversations, but I'm really glad you shared it with the Brand Nerds because Yeah. Um, it's really a, a, a special point in time that, that I'm sure you knew at the time it was, and it feels like Eric and all of you all really understood the gravity of the situation. And man, did you step up and you deserve, you deserve your kudos. You know, to this day, again, as you talk about touching human beings, my 85 year old mother who is, has dementia, but two, her, her two best friends who she grew up with are fine, and they have, they call their happy hour zooms, three nights a week. They've been doing that since the pandemic, right? Like 85 year old ladies, you know, and, and Zoom, Zoom did that because it's, it's easy enough for the 85 year old ladies to do. Abe Smith: That's right. That's right. And you know, that was part of the thesis Larry of the company was, you know, it, one of the themes that we had seen was the consumerization of IT. You know, products needed to become more easy, easier to use. And I'm not talking about like your social media application, which you use every day, or you know, something on your iPhone or otherwise, or on your Android, Android device. We're talking about like business software, which is really what the company was built for. One, again, one of the things that we just didn't expect in the pandemic is it was never, the company was never designed to de to really serve consumer use. So we focused on selling the businesses and providing the product. DC: Yeah. Abe Smith: To higher education, you know, hospitals and financial institutions, et cetera. We didn't expect, like, you know, Girl Scout meetings and, you know, and, and your 85 year old mother to be on it, you know, we're glad that they could, you know, because it, it provided something that they needed and that's where, again, the company was very benevolent. Eric was very benevolent. We carry the cost of that too. So there was a heavy cost of delivering service, which were largely free accounts. You know, that's a big part of what grew during the pandemic. LT: Right. Right. But you know what, that goes to our view of marketing. When you have the, your brand lover that's our parlance was dedicated toward business users who, who, who just embraced it totally. And because you did such a great job with them, that was actually enabled you to spill out everywhere because you were focused on that. It's interesting that that was never your target, D, don't you think that, I mean that's it's classic brand lover and this is what happens. This, these are how great brands are built. Abe Smith: Yeah, yeah, that's right. You know, but, and, and, but what we're seeing, and uh, it would, you know, I'd love to get you and the Brand Nerds perspective on it. It's interesting because you're, as your identity evolves, and you probably saw this with Coke and other places you've been. What people knew you for, then how do they start to know you for what you're becoming and who you evolved to? And that's, maybe that's a brand challenge, I'd say. DC: Ah, yeah. Abe Smith: Yeah. DC: Yes. Abe Smith: I dunno if you've experienced that. Maybe not for this podcast, but we would always, we would love advice or feedback on, on how you think about that. And just, you know, how your audience does too. DC: Uh, Abe. Rarely does someone succinctly, clearly explain what could be a complicated thing, and you've, you've done that here. LT: Yep. DC: Abe and I wanna point something out to the brand nerds, the question. Your CEO, Eric, said, he, he is one question when I look at myself in the mirror and I ask myself this question, is what I'm doing now, like, did I do the right thing when I look back 20 years from now? Did I do the right thing? Abe Smith: Yeah. DC: So he's imploring his team to ask themselves that question and then behave accordingly. Abe Smith: That's right. DC: Right now, Brand Nerds. Eric did not say, did we do the right thing by the balance sheet? He did not say, did we do the right thing by the P&L? He did not say, did we do the right thing given that we are less than a year from IPO, and this whole thing could go pear shaped. He did not, he did not say that. He simply said, did I do the right thing? And he gave it a time horizon, not look back. You, he's having this meeting on Tuesday and on Wednesday he's saying, did you look back 24 hours and say that? He said, 20 years, right? 20 years, Brand Nerds. Phenomenal. Uh, th this is a, this is a. Brand Nerds. You're getting a leadership moment right here. LT: Yes. DC: This is the leadership moment right here? Yes. Wow, Abe. Okay, so now I, I ask you this and then we're gonna go to the next section. Abe Smith: Yeah. DC: Uh, is that, so you are talking to Eric before he's coming into the call. He say, Hey, you can just come in. And so he contemplates that he then comes on? Abe Smith: Yeah. DC: And he, he drops this drop one question thing. He, he just boom. Okay. What are you thinking when he drops that? Cuz you just talked to him and he comes in with that. What's going? Abe Smith: It's like, it's 11 o'clock at night. I can't even think straight, but, uh, it's one, it's, it's actually one of these moments and what's what's been really a privilege to work at, at Zoom amongst so many privileges is that, there's so much saged advice that is almost, it's almost like philosophical tenants. That one, that one left. Me and anybody, everybody on that call, which there was probably a dozen or or 18 people on the call, honestly, just silent. LT: Right. Abe Smith: It's those, it's one of those, those moments where you have to like digest that. LT: Right. Abe Smith: And, and really appreciate it and really appreciate the words, which are pretty powerful because you're right. It it, it wasn't asking like how you doing on your quarterly number or how you, you know. DC: No. Abe Smith: What's the revenue like? It's, are you, are you doing the right things to guide the business in a way that is correct, and that is, there's so many layers to that DC uh, but it was, you know, at the moment it was, it was, it was just a very humbling moment because it creates like a pensive feeling where you're like, DC: Absolutely. Abe Smith: Wow. And then it actually creates a, an area to say, you know what? We aren't doing the right thing and we gotta do more of it. Get back out. Right? Like, get back out and do more. Wow. We aren't, we're doing something that actually is beyond ourselves and we, you know, one day we'll tell our grandkids the stories if they're willing to listen. And, and, uh, I think it, it, you know, it's, it's a humbling experience for everybody on the call. DC: I'll say this before I, I flip it over to, uh, lt, um, brand nerds. If you have ever been in a company that's private and then was acquired, um, and then a company that went from private to public, then you understand what it's like to have a board of directors of a private company that might be slightly different than a board of directors of a public company. So once you get to a board of directors of a public company, Brand Nerds, by and large, that board will dictate what the company does. Now, of course, the CEO is typically the, um, chairperson of the board, certainly no less than a vice chair in most cases. So they have something to say about that, and of course, the founder in this case, uh, uh, Eric, Eric is both the founder and the CEO. They have something to say about the construction of the board. But to answer to the board Brand Nerds, this is, this is what happens. So for Eric to come in and say, the one question is, did I do the right thing? It also meant that the board LT: Yeah. DC: Had to back that the board had to back Yes, Eric, we're with you. So not only is Eric talking to 12, 18 folks on the, on the, uh, on the executive leadership team, he's also signaling to the board, and dare I say, even to global economies, he's signaling you can run a company this way. I am. I am godsmacked. I'm awestruck by this. Okay. Haven't said all of that. Abe Smith: Yeah. DC: Larry, Abe Smith: and, and, and you gotta understand the man too, DC too, I'll say is that, you know, he, the core of the business, the philosophy and the foundation of the business was to deliver happiness and DC: Oh wow. Abe Smith: The entire ethos of the company is built around care. So, wow. You know, if you sound, if you start with that as a baseline of foundation Yes. It's, it operates very foundationally, fundamentally different, differently than probably most companies. Some of the Brand Nerds and myself had been, been a part of. DC: Woo. LT: That's deep. DC: We, Larry, we could end the podcast now. I know we can end it now, but we're not gonna end it now. Abe Smith: A I think you guys should be interviewing Eric, not me, for god's sakes. He's the real, I'm just a disciple. Like I bring the, I bring, I bought it to the religion times 10 and, and I believe in the religion. LT: That's so Abe, to say this though, D. DC: It is. It is. All right, LT, uh, you ready to take it to our, our sponsor? Read our wonderful sponsor. LT: I am happy to take it. We're gonna do our Specificity read. DC: All right. Okay. Alright. Alright. Uh, brand nerds and hey, we're about to take the five questions. So here's how this goes down. Hey, I ask a question, Larry, ask a question. We go back and forth till we arrive at five. Baseball season. Full effect. I'm in the batter's box. What was the first experience you had? First branding experience where Abe, it just captivated you. It, it, it, it was like strings upon your heart. You were like, Ooh, I really love this brand. I, what did I do before engaging with this brand? What was that brand for you, Abe? Abe Smith: I'm gonna answer it. I'm gonna take liberty and answer it in a couple ways. First of all, I'll, I'll say the love of brand, the love of brand marketing, and just how. Uh, you know, my thinking around marketing, public relations, communication started, I'll pay homage to my mother because Mm. You know, just on a, on a personal level, you know, you look and, and you reflect on people that really taught you the art. Uh, she was by far one of the best branding specialists, communicators, public relations. DC: Oh, wow. Abe Smith: Except person. So a lot learned on her, you know, on, on the knee of, of my mom. But I would say there was a catalyst moment and I was thinking about this of a brand experience that really resonated me. It was a bit of a parable and a story. DC: Mm-hmm. Abe Smith: I'm gonna take Larry back a little bit to dc I don't know if you're, are you from the East coast originally, or where, where you from? Midwest, Detroit. Okay. All right. All right. And Larry, I know you are from the east coast of New York. Yeah. So I'll take you back. I'm gonna take you back to the East Coast about 30, 30, 35 years ago. And there was a catalyst moment, uh, and Larry had mentioned, I, I lived overseas in Japan and I come back to the Boston area and I was getting, you know, ingratiated back into the business world, uh, into the business world and just community at large. And I got invited to a Rotary club meeting. DC: Oh yeah. Abe Smith: In, in small town, you know, Boston suburb. Yeah. And the guest speaker at the time was this guy by the name of Ken Meyers, who had started a company called Smart Food, which LT: Sure. Abe Smith: If you ever had it, it's a cheese popcorn, which is really delicious. LT: Yep. Abe Smith: And this is kind of interesting in that there was a bit of a Boston Popcorn war going on with a company called Boston Popcorn And Smart Food had gone and done their thing, and Ken was a featured speaker. And his expertise in specialty wasn't about food necessarily, it was about brand and marketing. And what I was just hypnotized with was he told the story, he said, look, I built the company in such a counterculture way. First of all, you know, everybody said you would never put your product in a black bag for your popcorn. They were usually transparent where you could see the food. But this was a colored bag, if you recall. And it, DC: I do. Abe Smith: That was mistake number one. Yeah. Mistake number two, like, you know, back in our day, and maybe I'll date ourself, you're much younger than I am, both of you guys. But if you recall, like most cheese popcorn was kind of that orange, that awful orange level where DC: Oh, oh yeah. Abe Smith: If you ate it. Like absolutely. Everybody knew, right? Everybody knew. Yep. So they were counterculture, they were white cheddar cheese, and it was this beautifully designed popcorn. So the product quality was excellent, it was unique and counterculture in how they position. The, the product packaging and otherwise. But what was so interesting about his discussion was he said, look, how do we get people to know about this product and compete against major players in the salty snack division? DC: Mm-hmm. Abe Smith: At the time, we were the underdogs and no one knew who we were and we didn't have huge marketing budgets. So his discussion was around experiential marketing. And he said, look in the hi, you know, on the slopes of New Hampshire, we would have somebody put on a smart food black, you know, uh, bag, uh, outfit and ski down the slopes. So every skier would see this happening. At the end of the slopes to the bottom of the slopes, they would hand out samples. We would've a team handing out samples. Oh. So he would place the product in the hands and say, Hey, look, you just saw something that was so different that caught your attention, you couldn't miss it. And then I'm gonna prove to you when you get to the bottom of the mountain, I'm gonna hand you a snack packet. You're gonna try the product and say, this is the most delicious product I've ever had in my life. And I'm gonna go on buy it now. He believed in sort of guerrilla marketing at the time, which was very novel. And, and, and LT: It was very avant garde then. Abe Smith: It was quite avant garde then. Yeah. And I listened to this and I was like, you know what? That makes so much sense. Fast forward in discussion. The company got bought by FritoLay. Yeah. Know FritoLay then ultimately bought the product. And he, he said, Hey look, you know, they put the product traditionally on the shelves and they followed the same formula of how they, they marketed it. And Ken Meyer said, Hey look, let me, let me just continue to do marketing the way I do. DC: Mm-hmm. Abe Smith: And let's compare side by side and see what happened. And the results were, were far in the favor of Gorilla Marketing and this experiential marketing, which was so powerful. What he said is, create an experience that is unforgettable. And then tie it with, you know, a proof point where it says, I'm gonna show you and then endear people to that experience where they remember the, the absolute magistrate and creativity of the experience. And then the, you know, the joy of the taste itself. It was genius. And I, I sat and listened to that and said, you know what? That's absolutely gorgeous. And it, it changed the way I thought about marketing in general of traditional buying, you know, above the line media and so forth, and thinking about, wow, it, it is about connection. It's around how you motivate and get people to connect with the brand itself. And that at its simplest regional level was like my moment of brand epiphany. Uh, that's that kind of liner note in some fashion has, has really impacted my mother's teaching, and then this one lecture from Ken Meyer about smart food resonated with me to start to guide the way I thought about marketing and my career and building brands, uh, like Zoom and technology and, and food products. And otherwise LT: That's deep. DC: Yeah. Abe Smith: I was young. I, at the time I thought it was old. I was 21 years old. It was, or 22 years old. I'm like, this is moving for me. Right. So, but it's a formative right. And, and, and you, you all were part of that era too, where. Wow, that kind of like unique elements of marketing and you, you both are legends in, in your, in this category, so DC: Thank you. Abe Smith: You've done so, so many, you know, brilliant and imaginative things. You know how it works, right? So there's something special with that. LT: Well, I love the fact that you experienced that at that young of an age and that has stuck with you. Yeah. And cl clearly you, that story has imbued your work. Abe Smith: Yes. DC: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. I'm, uh, there's a through line I'm picking up already. At the center of the brand of Zoom is deliver happiness and care. Eric cares about people, Abe cares about people. So that came through in their actions. Ken Care. That's why he was doing the marketing he was doing, he, he putting it in a formulaic way that FritoLay typically does. It does not require care. It requires care to do it the way he did it. And by the way, after FritoLay acquired Smart Food, Ken had enough money where he could go chilling. He didn't have to do anything right. But he ca because he cared, he said, let me show you the difference between the two. Care like that, like that. LT, any more from you brother, before we go to the next question? LT: I think we go to the next question de don't you think? DC: Yep. Let's do it. LT: So a, uh, in your lengthy career, uh, who is hat or is having the most influence on your career? Abe Smith: I'll, um, I'm gonna answer that in a three part way if I could, because mm-hmm. You've hit on, on the, you know, the story of Abe's life here, which was a soliloquy that you put together on the front end, which again, I'm extremely grateful for your, your kind words and LT: You earned it buddy. Abe Smith: No, look, I'll touch on the, the same things, you know, number one, I'll go back to point number one from the previous question. Uh, my mother had a huge, LT: Can you please say your mom's name? May she rest in peace, but we have to give her flowers. Abe Smith: Yeah, thank you. Marsha Smith. Marsha Smith. So, uh, she, number one was very, very influential. Had a lot of great business philosophies in general. Sh she was a bit of a Renegade herself. She was an entrepreneur. So, you know, when you learn from somebody that is mm-hmm. So hyper creative and you're around that and frankly has very good business acumen and which is complimented by my father, who helped her on, on, on some of the business mechanics. It was just, you know, it was a household that you don't realize necessarily as a child. Like you learn a lot from your parents in general, but just like on a, on a pure business level, reflectively huge amount of, huge amount of influence from her. So that's number one. Just on a, on a personal level and just life and business, I would say. You know, when it relates to international business, and she helped catalyst this, she actually found a, a magazine cover back in the day. There was a comp, there was a magazine called International Business. And the cover story was of, uh, two guys, one guy holding, you know, a chopstick with a bagel. And it talked about how they had brought bagels to Japan. Huh. And I thought it was just the most interesting story. And as it turned out, I ended up, uh, writing a letter and connecting with a gentleman, this gentleman who was on the cover of the magazine, who ended up becoming a mentor and a colleague and fast forward, I ended up working for him. So when you mentioned the quick serve restaurants and the food service products that we developed, developed, and then sold around the world, he was a big influence. So Jerry Shapiro, LT: What's his name? Abe Smith: Uh, Jerry Shapiro, who unfortunately also has passed. Uh, was, you know, the SBA Exporter of the Year, he was, uh, awarded on a rose garden ceremony by President Bill Clinton and it DC: Oh, wow. Abe Smith: It was really, it was really pretty amazing. Like he, you know, he did some incredible stuff and, uh, just lot of life lessons again, and just, uh, very, very skillful as it pertains to selling and, and the sales side of business. And then when I moved to Silicon Valley, you know, part three on the, in, on the influences, tech is a very interesting world. And I, again, I've been very, very fortunate to come across some amazing leaders like Subrah Iyar , who is the CEO and Co-founder of WebEx, you mentioned earlier Larry. LT: Mm-hmm. Abe Smith: Absolutely brilliant. I mean, to see the trends, he saw the trends in technology before they ever happened, and he knew about, he knew the mechanics of cloud computing before people were calling it cloud computing. LT: Wow. DC: Oh wow. Abe Smith: And then I was, uh, I was tutored, if you will, and, and mentored by Dave Berman, who was one of our sales leaders at, he was a president of, of WebEx, and then ultimately a part of Cisco. When we were acquired by Cisco to actually work in the shadows and actually spend a little bit of time with John Chambers was incredible. I mean, he really was a consummate diplomat and statesman as it pertains to how he proselytized the brand around the world and how he is very, very clear on what the message was. You know, the network is, the platform is a network and the value of Cisco and what they brought to the world. And then people like, uh, Mark Hurd at Oracle we're pretty fortunate in the business that we ran. We had some time with Mark Hurd uh, quite a bit actually. And, you know, mark, who has also unfortunately since passed away as the Co-CEO O of Oracle, uh, was a, you know, a brilliant leader in his ability to understand the command in numbers and just how, actually the simplicity and mechanics of a business that complex and large. Uh, he really articulated it. And, and then I think in this discussion, We've talked a lot about Eric already. Uh, but he is, uh, he's one of a kind, I mean, he's a savant. LT: Sure. Sounds like it. Abe Smith: Yeah. LT: How do you pronounce his last name? Abe Smith: Yuan. Yeah. Yuan LT: Yuan. Okay. Abe Smith: Yeah. So, and eric is, um, you know, has been a real inspiration in a variety of ways and how he's built the company from nothing to, you know, four and a half billion dollars in about 12 years. And just, uh, you know, the intelligence he's brought to the business. His, his skills as it relates to engineering and design are second to none. So it's, uh, you know, it's been a privilege. Like, uh, lots of people along the way have been very influential. Some in tech, you know, some in international development and just some in life. DC: Mm. LT: Yeah. Great stuff. That's great. Dee, you wanna add something? You wanna go to the next question? DC: I'm gonna quickly say this and go to the next question. It isn't just the fact that, uh, Abe, you've listed multiple folks what that is an indication of to me. Is that you've been paying attention. LT: Yes. DC: That's, that's what that means to me. Uh, I'll go to the next question. Platitudes have been offered, volumetrically so, and deservedly so, but this next question, Abe, has nothing to do with those wonderful wins. Only your biggest F up Abe, your biggest stinky, massive visible f up might I even say Hot. Hot, right. And what, and what you learn from it, Abe, and what you learn from it. Abe Smith: Right. Well, the, uh, D, the, the list as long as dis distinguished, and it could be the salsa drip on my, on my shirt and my face when I'm eating a burrito with Larry Taman so it could be called out as that, as LT: We both do that. Abe Smith: And now that you told me the new Coke story, the real new Coke story, I. I don't know that I have one of that magnitude by any means. Like there's some brilliant f up behind that. So I'm, I'm a little bit, you know, uh, you know, uh, balanced on that, that, that story that you told. But, um, I, you know, I don't, I was, I guess when I think about F ups, there are a lot, like, you know, let's be clear. There's times where you kick yourself and say, I've made a lot of wrong decisions, and frankly, many of 'em are timing stayed too long, stayed too short, you know, I honestly wasn't patient was too patient. I think that has been a theme in my life. Sometimes you're a little bit too optimistic. And the F up was, hey, I probably should have been a little bit more real with myself. Mm-hmm. And then I'd say, you know, I've been, I've been reflecting on this a lot, and I think, you know, people, uh, maybe our age, I'm gonna say again, for both of you in your thirties, for myself, that's a little bit fifties, DC: Not quite. Abe Smith: Yeah. You think about, you think about some of the things that are what's important and, you know, there's, there's a philosophy to how you, you lead yourself as a person. Probably maybe some of the, the f up I made is not taking enough time for myself, you know? Mm. You know, the, the, the, the challenge is with care comes responsibility, sometimes sacrifice. And that sacrifice could be with work and, you know, that sacrifice often can be with health, it could be with family, it could be with plan. Yeah. It could be with joy. Yeah. And I don't really subscribe to a discussion around work-life balance because in many ways, uh, personally, like the world's blended, but they have been too, uh, discreet in one or the other. Work or life. Right. Yeah. I think what I've really been trying to work on lately more myself is like, these two worlds are always gonna coincide, but if they can somehow intersect ah, where, uh, others can participate, like, you know, my son is older now, my daughter's older now, uh, they've been able to participate in some of the things that I'm doing in business that, you know, it's so much more joyful to do it with them. And, you know, there's times where we've been able to really celebrate with the fruits of our labor and, and be able to, you know, capitalize on that. And that's like, you know, an F up where I would've deferred that happiness or joy. I would've had something else to do. Yeah. We're being much more thoughtful now to say, you know what? Life's short. You never know. So, We're trying, we're trying to be a little bit more in intelligent about, you know, taking the time. I am personally so, and that's hard because I think when you also get into this kind of cadence of building and growing and grinding and driving and et cetera, it's, it's, it's really a bit of an ad, an addiction and it, and it can become an unhealthy addiction. So the, you know, the time is when to know when you also have to put in an overdrive. And there are those times and you have to be real clear. And then there's other times to say, I don't, you know, today's not that day. Yeah. And again, you know, one of the things I've learned to add Zoom over the last couple years too, Eric's real about this too, is, you know, there's, there's moments where you're like, today's not the day I'm gonna stop right now. LT: Right. Abe Smith: And that's, that would be something I would never do. And, and you have all worked in athletic products and otherwise there's a lot of effort in, in the branding world to talk about working through the pain. Yeah. And sometimes like, today is not the day to work through the pain. LT: That's right. Abe Smith: And I think there's moments to really understand that. And it's super hard because it, it, it count, it clashes with who you are and like the athlete, you want to get back on the field and you're like, you know what, this could really be hurting me for the long term. Yeah. But I gotta get back out there and I'm running and I don't, I don't even know why anymore. So I think when that happens, it's like you really gotta somehow regroup yourself. And you know, the F up I've made in the past answer your question was, I haven't taken stock in that. I'm trying to now personally, that's at a very personal level. LT: As your friend. I'm so glad you're saying this because I've seen you be, Brand Nerds in DC mm-hmm. Abe is so hardworking and so conscientious and that could take, like you said, it becomes an addiction and I've seen you be that way. Right. And, um, and so for you to even take stock of that, Um, as your friend, I'm really happy to hear you say that. And I think that there's huge wisdom and learning for others to hear that, quite honestly earlier in their career, to set boundaries. To your point, Abe, it's, you know, life is about gray. It's not black and white and you, so you're gonna be working at odd hours and crazy, but there's times where you just gotta block that damn calendar off and go take your son to Monte Carlo like you did, right? DC: Mm-hmm. Abe Smith: That's right. DC: That's a strong, um, yeah. Yeah. When, uh, Abe and uh, LT and brand nerds, we understand when we go out to have a meal, um, it's going to cost us something. Um, so we get that. We buy a car, it's gonna cost us something. We get a house apartment, it's gonna cost us something. What I don't think we humans are as good at is understanding the cost of grinding. It does cost something. You may not recognize it in a moment. True to point Abe, but it does cost something. Yeah, totally. There's there's a cost. Abe Smith: Yeah. So true. DC: All right, LT, should we hit the next one? LT: Yeah, let's, so Abe, uh, love this question for you. You know, you've basically lived most of your, uh, your professional life and technology, so regarding technology and the compliments of marketing, and you've lived that too. Um, can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech or areas that you think they should be leery or simply avoid? Abe Smith: That's great question. You know, the, I think, you know, technology is so liberating in how it actually affords personalized connections if used correctly. So, you know, we're, we're at a point in tech, whether it's on a communication device like Zoom or it's on, you know, MarTech, which I was very involved in for many years. You know, you can get extremely personalized and the messaging can be extremely pronounced. So I think, I think used correctly, that's very powerful because it provides people with the right kind of messaging at the right time for something that they favor, which is valuable. Uh, I'd say, you know, where people have to be careful as a marketer around, you know, use of, of, um, a mark of, of technology is when it does feel a little bit invasive and, and you're overstepping the boundaries. So, you know, the, the amount of information that we're enjoying and now with the advent of AI and what AI is gonna do for the profession, any profession, marketing, sales, customer success. Yep. Financial services, health and wellness, et cetera. It's groundbreaking. And I think that's a leverageable tool. And I think tech in general is, and I've seen that, I've seen the growth of the cloud really provides so much more power. And I think what's gonna happen now in the AI world, uh, you know, we're on a fourth revolution. So if, you know, the internet was a primary revolution and the PC was a revolution and the mobile device was a revolution, you know, AI is extremely, uh, beneficial, but you know, incorrectly used, it can start to get LT: Sure. Abe Smith: A little bit dangerous, right? So the balance for marketers still to use these tools and I'd say communication tools, MarTech, et cetera, AI and so forth, in ways that provides value and edification for the recipient. They have to know their boundaries and it should still go back to the discussion that we had about a half hour ago, where you're really caring, like, so if you can use tech to show that you're caring and you're not actually using it in a way that's just, you know, personal or it's, uh, it's, it's for your own wellbeing or the company's wellbeing. And that becomes pretty obvious. So that's a difficult dilemma for a marketer because, you know, they're, they're chartered now, and especially with, with technology in general and the analytics associated with it, everything's very quantifiable. So I actually believe very highly in the art and science and marketing. And I do think, uh, that there is an art and science. So, you know, again, the art side, the artistic side is around, you know, making, helping people connect with a brand that beauty of an emotional responsiveness, et cetera. But I do think, you know, with the measurement side, uh, there is a big push on the CMO in general to be very, very clear on what they're delivering. Right? Yeah. So, and then showing a very distinct ROI which I do think is healthy. I think these are both healthy balances, but it does create a, a bit of a, a dichotomy and a somewhat of a dilemma for the marketer overall, I would say. LT: Love that answer. Abe Smith: Yeah. LT: D, you have anything to add or you wanna go to the next question? DC: Next question. Abe, what are you most proud of? Abe Smith: So that's easy for me, like, you know, again, and thanks for the, you know, the, the five and, you know, to end it on one where again, we bring it back to, I'll, I'll take advantage of the personal element. All the stuff in marketing that we do will be remembered and it'll be great. All the stuff that, you know, we achieve in sales and the numbers that we created, the millions of dollars that we've established for the economy and so forth is, is, is really important. I'm most proud of, like my family in general. So, you know, when I look at, you know, Larry, you know, you've got a son the same age, so I've got a son who's gonna about to turn 20 in August, and it's really, really wonderful and I'm so proud of like his skill, what he's learning, how he's making his own choices, how he articulates himself, his empathy, his care. You know, I look at my daughter, she just turned 18 and graduated high school. Her ability to have just such incredible determination and grit, perseverance. It's inspiring for me. I mean, she, you know, suffered some, some learning challenges. You'll be happy to know, Larry, I don't think I've caught up with you, but she's gonna be going to NYU which is LT: Oh, awesome. When you were looking, remember you were Abe Smith: Right. Right now it's. Realize, so she'll be going to the Big Apple, and that's Oh, that's great. Her absolute perseverance. I'm so proud of her. And, you know, I'm also proud, proud LT: Shout-out Este Josh and Este by the way, are a kids' names. Abe Smith: Yeah. Josh and Estee. So, and with my wife Shelly, you know, I'm, I'm really proud of the relationship that we've been able to build, that it's evolved. Like, you know, as we grow old together, there's new chapters that we're gonna have to navigate together. And I'm, I'm, I'm grateful and appreciative for her, you know, support and just, just willingness to also take a journey that's gonna be, continue to be crazy. She's living in crazy town, you know, with hanging out with Abe Smith and, and, uh, you know, a lot of gratitude for great parents and, and family members too. At the end of the day. I'm proud to have that on my side. DC: Nice. Nice. LT: That's it, man. Love it. Abe Smith: That's the story. LT: Should we go to the next section? DC: Let's do it. LT! LT: All right. Abe, DC What is popping? Abe Smith: Hey, DC: what's, what's popping Abe! Tell me. Abe Smith: Let's go. LT: That's right. This is our chance of shout out. Shout down, back to hot again. Abe Smith: Let's go back to hot. That's right. Back to hot. Comes back to hot dc Let's see. Right. Let's, DC: and Larry, and by the way, just, just to put a button on this, this is why Abe subliminally used Smart Food popcorn because how does, how does corn pop? It's the heat baby. Abe Smith: It's all heat, it's all intentional. This all comes around. This is, we're marketing here. LT: As, as, as, as Don Keough said, he is not that smart and he is not that dumb. Abe Smith: No, exactly. LT: All right, so I have a, I have a really interesting what's popping with Abe in the house. I just read this this morning and I thought this, this would be really cool. So, um, I'm gonna read you a couple things and I want to get both of your reactions to it. Okay. So on Wednesday, The Canadian government announced that it will cease all ad spending, which for them is about seven and a half million dollars per year on per year on Facebook and Instagram. The decision comes after meta and Google blocked Canadian news in opposition to a Canadian law, requiring technology platforms to compensate publishers for linking to their content. And so the Canada's, uh, minister, uh, uh, Heritage Minister Pablo Rodriguez, said, quote, we have decided to take the necessary step of suspending all government of Canada advertising to Facebook. We cannot continue paying ad dollars to Meta while they refuse to pay their fair share to Canadian news organizations. The Online News Act or Bill C-18 was passed into law last month. The government is currently in the process of finalizing the bill. Which would require, require tech platforms to share a portion of ad revenue before the law goes into effect at the end of the year. According to the bill, Google and Meta currently earn 80% of all digital advertising revenue in Canada. And, and as Rodriguez noted ad dollars that used to be spent on Canadian news outlets who report on local and regional news. Despite these tech giants decision to stop news access on their platforms, the Canadian government still remains confident that will continue to negotiate. Uh, Rodriguez added. We believe we have a path forward and we're willing to continue with the platforms. Um, however, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said, and again, this is all within the last 24 hours. This is not just a dispute over advertising, it's a dispute over democracy. This goes through the core of, of a free and informed society that is able to take responsible decisions through in a, in a democracy. Meta has not yet commented on the news, though it has previously mentioned that news in Canada holds little to no economic value for the company, believing that news organizations benefit from the publicity they receive on Facebook and Instagram. Basically, Zuckerberg and his crones are saying, you're a suburb of Buffalo. That's really what they're kind of saying, right? So, so, and also two major Canadian media firms, Quebecor and Cogeco Communications have also announced that they and their subsidiaries are suspending advertising on meta platforms. What say you all about this? DC: Abe? Abe Smith: I was gonna say DC you take first stab. Come on. DC: Alright. Okay. Um, popping all this is, um, Okay. Clarifying question, Larry. LT: Yeah. DC: Is the issue that Meta is sharing 0% of the revenue with the publishers, or is it that LT: zero DC: they, oh, okay. I was gonna ask, or if it's like some, they're looking for a larger share. LT: Yeah. But what they're basically saying, what, what I interpret is Canada's saying, Hey, you know, we, they're using, you know, all of our, our news or outlets and we're not getting paid for it. And by the way, they, that's how they're supported. So what they're really saying is, if they don't share the revenue, how are these, how are these news, news organizations and publishers going to survive? DC: Well, they're not Okay. Right. So they, they, they won't survive in my view. Alright, so I've got two issues here. One is, what this suggests is that since Meta Meta is much larger than any of the individual publishers in Canada or any other country for that matter. LT: Yep. DC: That even if the Canadian want one publication wants to sue meta, they're never going to get to a place where they can afford that legal battle. LT: Right. DC: So, so this is a size thing. So the first thing on my mind is, is there some way for the Canadian publishers and publishers, smaller call 'em micro publishers around the world to form what is ostensibly the, the, uh, a, a digital union, if you will, right? Is that, is that one way to combat this? But then the second, the second one is this far more human, and then I'll pass it to Abe. I don't know that whoever at Meta is making that decision like, yep, nope, you're not getting any money over here. You sub over Buffalo. If they are looking themselves in the mirror and saying, I got one question for myself, am I doing the right thing? But I'm going back 20 years from now. Right. Will I be, will, will my grandchildren be proud that I snuffed out? LT: Right. DC: The, the, you know, the, uh, the mounted police daily. Right. Well, well, I mean, and I think the answer is no. So that, that's, that's where I stand on it, Abe? Abe Smith: It's a tough one. I mean the, uh, you know, I would say, you know, the, hopefully the Canadian government and and Justin Trudeau and, and, and Mark Zuckerberg and all of Facebook can sit down at a table, have a couple pancakes and put some syrup on it and talk about it. Right? Which is mm-hmm. The first question, it's like, how much real communication other than press releases are they having, right? Yeah. Is there a mediation on that? You know, the platform's important. So Meta has a, a critical importance at a absolutely global level. I mean, the decision to, to make a statement and then revert ad dollars elsewhere, bold. It's correct. You know, I think they have to do what's right and say, you know, at the end of the day, uh, this is, this is a fundamental issue for us as a country. We want to, again, let's see how, how meta reacts and if they'll sit down correctly and, and discuss it and, and look back at themselves, you know, today and a week from now, and, and do the right thing. And then subsequently, if they don't, you know, then there's a stance to say, uh, can you know, should they make that move now? And the pro probably the answer is yes. And then can they, can there be an adjustment in the mediation over time that makes it fair and equitable for all? So let's see where, let's see where the issue goes. That's a hot one though. Yeah. LT: There, there should be, uh, a situation where everybody in the, uh, media community, cuz they're all part of the media community, needs to figure out how everybody can, can get their share. Um, that's my opinion and that's where I'll state it and, and everybody should figure out how to do the right thing. But I don't blame the Canadian government at all for, for making a stand. Because if you don't make a stand, it's, you know, this is gone. Right? DC: Yeah. I, I'll just say this, uh, quickly in, in this, in the realm of do the right thing, and at this, at this moment, uh, Brand Nerds are thinking like, is this a Spike Lee movie or is this a podcast? LT: Right? DC: Uh, but, but, but anyway, is that, uh, a principle that I would like to see big and small companies employ. Creators should be compensated for their creation, right? Even if they don't know how to be compensated, right? That it should just be figured out for the creator. So that's, that's, that's a thought I have. All right. Go ahead, Larry. LT: That's it. All right. So Abe, dude, this has been so much fun. I've been looking forward to this for so long. Abe Smith: Me too. LT: And this is better than I expected. Abe Smith: Thank you. Thank you both. This has been a lot of fun. And, uh, boy, uh, I, you know, I, it started hot. It ended hot. So I'll, LT: Well, we have a couple learnings. We wanna posit a before we get outta here. So, uh, DC I'm gonna start with my learnings. Uh, there's so many things, but I'm gonna call it down to five. And, uh, Jeff Shirley would be happy to give the odd number five. Um, it, the first one. It goes back to who Abe is, and Brand Nerds no matter who you are, what, what your personality type is. Extrovert, introvert, whatever. Find your peeps. It's about the people you work with. Find a place that you feel like you fit. That's number one, and that's professionally. Number two, as a leader, be like Zoom, CEO, Eric Yuan. And D is so funny you mentioned do the right thing. You know, it goes back to that and the mayor from do the right thing. Just do the right thing. Yeah. If you go to just that one foundational piece, we all know just do the right thing. That's number two. Number three, experiential marketing. Abe, uh, was talking about the Smart Food situation and he took it to another level. Create an experience that is unforgettable and experiential marketing can really be that where you really emotionally connect with, uh, with consumers or customers, uh, right in front of them experientially. Uh, number four, Abe, take time for yourself. Figure out what is gonna work for you, and Abe said, there's not balance, but there is, there's a balance. Maybe not in a specific day, but in your life. You gotta find that balance. And the last one, the last one that Abe talked about, um, I love this one, is use tech to show you are caring, that you're not invasive. And we all know the difference. And as a marketer, you gotta know when you're, when you're actually, uh, putting forth digital marketing, figure out the difference of whether you're actually putting forth something that's caring versus something that's invasive. Those are my five. DC: All right. Uh, those are dope. Larry, uh, Abe and Brand Nerds you don't know this. I've never listened to an episode of Brands, Beats, and Bytes all the way through. Never. Uh, I don't like listening to myself. This is going to be the first one that I listened to from front to back because of you, Abe. All right. Here, my takeaways. The universe has a rhythm and I think it gives us clues about life and and who we are. The first one is this. You started in Japan as a teacher. As a teacher. You are at Zoom, and when you all took off, you took off because you did the right thing by teachers. Abe Smith: Yes. LT: Right. DC: Second, in Japan, it was a small town. You reference it as a small town, at least Larry did. When you had your, uh, marketing moment in question number one, that blew your mind. It was a rotary meeting in a small rural town outside of, uh, Boston. Small town, Japan. Small town outside of Boston. Small classroom sizes often are the best teachers. And then, when we talk with you about the people that have influenced you, you, you mentioned many folks, Eric, among them, your mother, um, and you said this word, you said, you know, I'm, I'm a disciple. I'm a disciple. And so what I thought, I thought my take away for you was going to be you are like the penultimate teacher, but you're not. A teacher is a person who teaches, especially in school, you are actually a disciple of humanity. You are a disciple of humanity, says a follower or student of a teacher, leader, or philosopher. With that, I will end on this, another quote that I have discovered from Eric Yuang, and it is this, and by the way, that's the CEO of Zoom. Brand nerds, empathy, humanity, and support for each other is more important than revenue, than growth. Abe Smith: Yep. DC: You're a disciple of humanity. A that's what you are. Abe Smith: Thanks. Thank you, DC Those are powerful words, man. And uh, I really, really enjoyed the time with both of you, and thank you for including me on this, on this, uh, podcast. It's really been a privilege, uh, to be, I'm humble, to be, uh, amongst greatness. I'm just here, I'm just here to listen to your advice, so thank you. Thank you. I'm gonna listen to, this is the first podcast I'm gonna listen to end to end, so thank you. Just to hear the last part, the first part and the last part, which my mom would be proud. And then I will, I will learn and it'll, it'll, it'll take me to sleep every night so I can remember. Good philosophy. Thank you both. DC: Welcome, brother. Thanks. LT: That's awesome. We're so glad you joined us. Um, and Jade, I'm, I'm gonna make the segue, uh, thanks to the Brand Nerds. Thanks for listening to Brand Beats, invites recorded virtually on on Zoom, Abe, and a production of Kz S u Stanford 90.1 FM radio worldwide at kzsu.org. The executive producers at Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Haley Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro DC: The pod father. LT: That's him. And if you are listening to us via podcast, it would be great if you can please rate and review us. Additionally, if you do like the show, please subscribe and share. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.