Latest / Business Roundtable / Mastering Crucial Conversations in Business: A Guide for Leaders

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Mastering Crucial Conversations in Business: A Guide for Leaders · Business Roundtable

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Hi, everybody, Welcome back to the Business Roundtable podcast. So glad to
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have you here. Well we have another great conversation. Uh. For those
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of you that are tuning in for the first time, my name is David
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Carr of Stewart Your Business, where I focus on organizational help, help helping
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team leaders business owners build a team that they're proud of working together accomplishing great
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things. I'm super excited to have back Bill Hatch. Bill welcome. Oh
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and Bill's frozen there, he goes, Bill, are you there? We
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got are you watching here? He is, Welcome back, Bill h So
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and then we have thank you Bill, Yeah, go ahead, Bill,
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Ye, yes, Yes I do. I do a couple of podcasts under
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the banner of Bald Spots Productions. I produce a show roundtable show called not
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Quite After Midnight that has a variety of guests as opposed to a strictly business
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podcast and uh. And then I also do a couple of Christian broadcasts.
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You're all over it, all over it Bill so uh. And then we've
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got a special guest that I've known for a long time, Adam Pulling.
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Welcome Adam, if you wou don't mind, just kind of introducing yourself to
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the team, to the audience because you're new and we're so glad to have
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you here. Thank you so much. David. Yeah, Hi, I
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am Adam Pulling and I have known David for goodness quite a few decades now,
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so it's such a pleasure to be on here. I've had a multitude
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of business opportunities because I've been involved with during my life and it's currently I
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have been doing a business development coaching for the past three to four years,
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so and I'm located here in Texas, Austin, Texas to be specific.
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We're glad to have you, Adam. I'm super excited to have your contributions
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here on our topic tonight, which is critical the business is really crucial conversations
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having constructive conflict in the workplace, and so I know all of you,
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both of you have had those, I've had them, and so our goal
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here in this podcast episode is to really help you that are listening make sure
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that when you have those conversations or conflicts or collisions if you will, that
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it can be the most productive that they can be and a beneficial to your
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organization and not not a liability. So we'll just start there. And you
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know, I'll just start with a question and maybe I'll come to you.
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I'll come to you first, Adam, on this about sure? Why why
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crucial conversations? Why is it? Why do we need to embrace that?
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Because there's there's a we can embrace it or avoid it. And you know,
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when we're thinking about this concept of crucial conversations and collisions and all of
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that, you know what, you know, why why is that important?
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Because some people are avoids and some people run right into it and and you
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know, why do what in your opinion, why do you think these are
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so important? Oh? My goodness, yes, really here it comes down
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to this. Main point is you can't run away from it. I would
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love to say that, yes you can, and there's a great escape mechanism
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and you'll get away with it, but you won't. And the biggest reason
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is is we don't actually go against this conflict that's facing you. It could
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be very small, it could be petty, it could be something that she's
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very minor. It'll get larger and larger and larger until it becomes something so
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big you can't outrun it anyways. And I have done that from experience where
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I've tried to outrun something in the past and he has come back and has
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blown up in my face. And so I'm speaking from experiencing. It is
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much much better for your psyche, for the people you're with, the people
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that count on you, including your family, your friends, your coworkers,
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and also the person that you need to have this crucial conversation with if you
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just confront the issue and you can find that it just becomes minimized, you
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know, and I'll talk about the Bible slide for a second. Is He's
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you know, God wants us to confront our fears, you know, and
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he gives us all the strength and the power to do so. You know,
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if there's fear in our life, so he wants us to conquer,
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if it's a conversation, if it's an opportunity to overcome something that is causing
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fear to us. You know, being out there and just accomplishing this opens
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up a wide range of opportunities and as you can then move forward in your
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life with you back up. You hide from these opportunities I'm going to call
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them that in conference opportunity of these, then you become weaker as the opportunity
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as a person as a leader, as a partner, and also as someone
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who is you know, speaking of God's power with them as a Christian as
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which I am. God's won't work through you to accomplish these goals. So
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let God work through you to accomplish these He wants you to be successful.
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So work towards them, accomplish them, and you can afford Oh man,
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great, great, some great thoughts there. One of the things you triggered
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me in my mind at Adam is when you bring in the God conversation,
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whether you believe in God or not. There's a story of Adam and Eve.
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Right, Adam and Eve they have they didn't have the crucial conversation.
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They went and hid. They said, I'm hiding, a hiding, I'm
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trying to run it. But like you said, Adam, to your point,
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they couldn't hide from it, like God knew where they were, and
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and so we can't hide from it. You can't hide from God, right.
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I mean you could even try to hide from co workers or other things.
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But ultimately it's good to come up some come somewhere along the line.
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So Bill for you, when you you hear this conversation about colliding and collision
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and and having these crucial conversations. What what what what does that mean for
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you? Let's see, all right, Bill, you're with us technical see
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and you thought Adam is in in the tornado alley right now? The flashing
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vine my window here, and we're gonna see if Bill doesn't. And Bill's
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in Missouri, so we're we've got the central United States cover tonight. I'm
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here on the west coast where it's really nice and calm, thankfully. But
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if Bill comes back, we'll see if we get them. Bill phil for
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to chime in. Once you hear us he's back. Can you see me
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now we could see you. You're good? Sorry about that? Yay,
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okay, yeah. You know something that that Adam was saying reminded me of
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a story. There's a bunch of animals living in the forest and a tiger
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comes along and asks if he can live in the forest with the animals and
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the and the animals so it's fine, you know, you can, you
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can live here, no problem, and and the sheep just kind of says
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okay. And as time goes by, the tiger starts growling at the sheep
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and and really making the sheep very uncomfortable, and I'll tell the sheep finally
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is so, so it says, forget it, I'm leaving the forest.
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Forest, and she goes to the other animals and says, listen, I
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kiss tiger anymore. I'm leaving. And the other animals say, wait,
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wait, you know, maybe we just need to promote some communication or or
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you know, or or you know, do something about about the tiger's attitude.
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And and the sheep say no, no, I'm done. It's too
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late, and uh, you know, like, yeah, well you can't.
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Yeah, yeah, but the problem, Yeah, if you if you
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try running from the running from the problem or burying it or burying your head
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in the sand, then it's just the problem is gonna get too big and
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you're gonna have to have that uncomfortable conversation sooner or later, and sooner the
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problem is smaller. So uh yes, so you know, just yeah,
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just suck it up and get it over with. Yeah, right, Well,
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I think about I like that idea, Bill, what you said,
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start smaller and understanding these crucial conversations. They don't start off usually, these
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big blow ups. It's it's right, it's starting off. I'll think of
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like a pinhole, leak and a pipe or something. You know, it's
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a little bit, it gets worse over time, has more destruction, and
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the longer you let it go right where the gap gap gets bigger and bigger.
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To your point, you're what you're saying, Adam, So I think
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it's important to be recognize, be on the lookout for what constitutes a crucial
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conversation. Why is it essential to be able to identify when it's necessary to
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have that conversation, what's contributing? What are the elements that are kind of
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building up there? And so then you know what do we need to look
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for. So I'll come back to you, Adam for a second if you
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and I give us an example or two of like where where have you like
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said? Okay? And I know you've even shared with me previously critical conversations
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that had to happen right and some of them that maybe went on the way
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waited too long and I should have had that critical conversation earlier. But what
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are the things that we try to do on this podcast and those that are
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listening, is we want to bring value and insights so you can apply this
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in your own life and where you're looking at so particularly for those people that
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are maybe up and coming leaders or managers and they're like, I don't know,
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is this a big issue or not a big issue? What should I
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could be considering? So what would that look like for you, Adam?
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One of the things like, hey, this is this is leading as an
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indicator. We might need to have a collision in a positive way, address
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this in a constructive way. Yeah, that's a great question, and it's
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a little different for everybody. I think what I may think is a very
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important topic to be discussed. Now it may not affect anybody else, but
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as a leader, you really need to be able to take a look at
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the environment you're creating, the culture you're creating, and really making sure that
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everybody is on the same page. A good leader doesn't just drive the business,
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but they drive the culture and the business right. And so when you're
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looking at like this culture I'm trying to present here is maybe I want someplace
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that people can come, they can feel relaxed, and their the ability to
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communicate each other, they feel that they're welcome, they want they enjoy being
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where they are. I always try to carry a place that when it was
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five o'clock, people don't run out the dogs. They hate it so much.
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It was like five five fifteen. Now it's five thirty, and I
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was like, not trying to push them. I'm like, hey, guys,
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go home to your family, you know. So things that may affect
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me may not be them. But the important things they start talking about is
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when it doesn't just affect me personally, because I look and go, hey,
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this might affect me, but it's also affecting the business. It is
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affecting the business culture. Is it affecting their ability to do their job effectively?
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Is it affecting my other team players' ability to do their job effectively?
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Is it changing their quality of work life? And I like to always bring
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that into balance because just because I am passionate and I want to get this
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job done by last week, you know, and I just gave them to
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it today. You know, I'm really excited. I want this going going
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going, But you do realistic. I try to bring us into mind and
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say, okay, what realistically should this conversation be about. Is just me?
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Is it affecting everybody? And so I bring down these key areas and
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I look over them all and I say, okay, taking into consideration here
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is with a realistic leader, with a realistic manager, and my position also
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have a similar kind of issue with what's going on here with with anybody likewise
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want to accomplish the same kind of goal I'm trying to accomplish. If so,
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yes, great, I move forward and then I start addressing these making
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a list. I always try to go prepared, right you want to,
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You really want to have a defined list of what you're looking at before you're
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going to them, with real life examples. Nothing worse than going in there
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and going every day I see, Yeah, it's just not right, you
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know, and it's at first you're talking in absolutes. They're going to shoot
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you down immediately going what do you mean every day as the other days?
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You know, you try to have real examples, you know, Hi,
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John Susan, whoever. The past couple of times I've seen you come in,
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you did such and such and such on this time, and I really
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like to be able to accomplish this, this and this is right that's getting
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in your way? Is there anything that you want to discuss with me?
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Is the reason why you can't achieve or the reason why you're seeing this different
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balance and what we're trying to accomplish here. Do you have a different take
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on that I'm not seeing? Share with me, open up to me.
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How can I help you accomplish it at the end of the day. And
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that's made a big difference for me and kind of just breaking down these few
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rules before jumping in deeper and really trying to attack anything too crazy, because
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sometimes it's just like, you know what, Actually, I've had to flew
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the past two three days and I still came to work. Anyways. I'm
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like, oh my goodness, you still came into work. Thank you so
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much. You're you're you're doing amazing stuff for us, but please go home
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and get better. Right right, I want to I want to throw it
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to Bill here for a minute, Bill, because on previous episodes we've talked
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about core values, right, and one of the things is that related to
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what you're talking about, Adam, is if somebody is not you know,
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one of the things I use I would love to get your thoughts here on
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this bill is if your company hopefully has core values something a mission or a
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vision, all of those things. But we talked about core values quite a
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bit on a past episode, and if somebody is not living up to those
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values of the company. What would you say, you know, in that
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in the reign of a crucial conversation, Bill, how would you address that
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or you know, pick up on that. Well, the first thing to
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remember is that no one sees themselves as the villain of the story, and
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so you have to speak to them in a way that understands that. You
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know, the bad guy is not the bad guy in his or her own
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story. And you know so so when you approach them about whatever issue it
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is someone else is having, you have to help them to understand the other
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position. And uh, you know so, uh so empathy is definitely an
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important core value to to be promoting. In the light of that, you
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know, cut it off, you know, cut it off before it becomes
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a problem. Mhm. And uh you know, by creating, by creating
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things in the in the environment, like empathy, seeing failure as an opportunity
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for for learning or improvement. We talked about that last week. If you
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missed the last episode, you missed a lot. But and uh, you
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know you need to yeh like and subscribe. That's right. So so that's
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the That's the big thing that I would say is that you need to we
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need to go into this already already prepared, Like, yeah, like what
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Adam was saying with with you know, write down what it is you want
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to discuss, have at least talking points over it as to the whys and
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wherefore and how somebody else could see the behavior as being unpleasant or worse.
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Yeah, And I liked how you started Adam earlier about you know, looking
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at this is this is this a me problem? Or is this something bigger?
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And I like the model it's been talked about, giving copy of talking
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about the circle influence or how how do we start with ourselves and radiate out?
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Right? So looking at that and then and then and looking at that,
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we're looking at problems directly, indirectly and things we don't have any control
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over. Right, So if we could start with ourselves, that may may
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just be a crucial conversation with ourselves. Right, It's a hard one sometimes
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too. We better like collide with ourselves and be real, you know,
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stop lying to ourselves, really realize what's going on. But then but but
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then radiating out from that, uh, you know, looking at Okay,
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what what does that framework look like for having the conversation? I never like
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to have a gotcha conversation in any kind of bess. And I was literally
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Lily just talking to a client today because we were talking about like performance reviews,
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things like that, right where sometimes those were crucial conversations. However,
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I was telling her, and I advise anybody that's listening here, if you're
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annual or you know performance for you, let's just say it's annual and you're
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having a crucial conversation, not that you can't have one there. My hope
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would be that wouldn't be that you would have had conversations leading up to that,
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right, like what you were saying, so that you're having so it's
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not a surprise, you're not. It's not a gadya. You're like,
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oh, I'm I'm aware and I know what's going on. And again,
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like you were saying, Adam, if we catch this or Bill catching this
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earlier on, he doesn't need to get blown up. But the reality is
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paying attention. And I'll give you an example for me of different people raise
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up issues. And I had a conversation at one point with a gentleman I
18:30
worked with, and he had said something to me in past. It seemed
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to me in passing. I didn't realize the gravity of his comment and what
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he was bringing up to me at the time, and it should have been
18:42
a crucial conversation. I didn't recognize it at the time the way he presented
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it. I just didn't pick it up that way. He is a very
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calm, very just very you know. There just wasn't a lot of emotion
18:55
or anything tied to it, so I missed it. And then we had
19:00
to learn a communications style to understand each other. So it's like knowing who
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you are and knowing your other team too, about your talked about culture Adam
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earlier of like, Okay, maybe it isn't affecting me, but it's affecting
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this other person, and I do need to have that crucial conversation. So
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again identifying that what we ended up doing. We kind of laughed about it,
19:18
but I would. I would when he would talk with me, and
19:21
we would because everything sounded the same to me when he talked. I just
19:25
couldn't differentiate if this was like really really important or is this low. So
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it's literally say hey, David, my hair is on fire, because that
19:30
was like our keyword. Now my hair is on fire. This is the
19:33
issue. So I learned to adapt to be able to identify and recognize these
19:40
issues. But I also recognized thankful he was willing to tell me that.
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But here's the thing I think, as leaders need to know, you have
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to be tuned in this because sometimes people aren't as tune in themselves and they
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really want to have a crucial conversation with you, but they they have their
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own limitations on themselves, and so sometimes they don't bring the conversation. I
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mean, say I have an open door policy, come see me so again,
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as leaders yourselves and don't come back to you, Adam, How again,
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have you recognized that or have you learned techniques or tools in which you
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can then clue in on that? Absolutely? Yeah, So I'm not sure
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if you guys are familiar with strengths finders at all. Oh yeah, great.
20:23
So in my top five, my number one is empathy. So some
20:29
days it's really painful and you can walk into a room and I'm able to
20:33
really kind of sense the feeling there. Sometimes you are like, hey,
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I can cut that tensu with a knife. Like I'm the guy going here's
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the knife. I already felt it, you know, I get it on
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there with you, and so I spent a lot of time actually just having
20:45
conversations with my team members. I got to know them on a deeper level,
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know their passions, their dreams, what they really want to accomplish inside
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of work, outside of work, having a better quality of life for them
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planned in my head, so I can have a vision with what they want
21:03
to do and what makes your life better. I can kind of sense at
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that point when things aren't going well. Like you, if anybody else you
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spend a lot of time with, you know when they're feeling good, when
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they're feeling bad. And I understand that it'll be difficult for a leader that
21:15
may have ten twenty fifty one hundred employees or more under them than know every
21:19
single person individually. But I believe they should least know them well enough that
21:23
they could just know their name. And you can kind of sense some people
21:26
aren't doing well. They're not making eye contact with you, they're looking down
21:30
when they're having conversation with you. They're feeling uncomfortable because they're fidgeting a lot,
21:33
they're changing their head, they're copying they You know, you can take
21:37
on these normal mannerisms that we can get out of individuals when you can say
21:41
this person feels very uncomfortable to me, and I try to just maybe share
21:45
something about myself with them, like, Hey, I have gone through this.
21:49
Do you experience something like that? Maybe like you know what, Hi,
21:52
We're getting ready to the holiday season. I know it's gonna be busy
21:56
in the retail sector and you may be like, wow, this hollay season
21:59
is common on film, tired of myself? How are you doing? And
22:02
just ask these open ended questions for them. Let them not just say yes
22:04
or no, because that's what they want to do. Properly. Bosses right
22:07
here, I want to seyes know and go away, you know, but
22:10
really kind of dig down and say, hey, how are you doing,
22:12
and what has work been like for you? What do you see this holiday
22:18
season? Get them involved in it, and you can kind of hear them.
22:21
They will start having deeper conversation with you as they trust you. So
22:23
building that trust mechanism, opening that environment where they feel that they can communicate
22:29
with you, we'll get to that next level where you can help them accomplish
22:33
more and have this better trust and understanding, and so you can help them
22:37
solve their their problems more and they'll be willing to come to you and have
22:41
that deeper level conversation where they feel like, Okay, I'm secure, I'm
22:45
safe here, I want to go forward. Can you help me? And
22:48
as a leader, your plan was like, yes, I want to help
22:49
you because your successful in my success and our success, and we want to
22:52
want to do those things. And so that' stuff's kind of noticed. That's
22:56
a great I mean everybody has that, So that's wonderful. You have that
22:59
gift adam of empathy. Bill. I want to ask you a question here
23:06
when because I know one of your one are your focus is ethics, right,
23:10
business ethics, So how do you approach somebody when they're, like you
23:14
said, maybe they don't see themselves as the villain, they don't see themselves
23:18
but ethically they're not in alignment with what the business is. Maybe they don't
23:23
know it, But how do you number one, identify it? You can,
23:27
I think you can identify that. But what do you do to approach
23:30
that person, especially when they don't think they're being a villain, Like,
23:33
Hey, I'm getting the job done, I'm working it right, I'm getting
23:37
thing covered, I'm being productive. You're like, well, maybe not in
23:40
the way that we would want to be doing that, right. Yeah,
23:48
Yeah, that's a that's a tough one because if you haven't already set up
23:52
the culture where such behaviors are discouraged, unwelcome. However however you wanna you
24:03
want to put it, however strongly you want to put it, then you're
24:07
you're really starting from behind. You're you've got an uphill battle ahead of you,
24:11
because like all this see doesn't know the people. People see them as
24:22
as a viking with a battle axe, and uh, you know, but
24:27
I have door policy. My door's always open, and you know, and
24:32
they and they just don't see it. You you need to go in there
24:37
with the prepared with this is what these other people are feeling. You have
24:44
to teach them how to be empathetic too to others. You know, so
24:49
and so is introverted. You. You know, it's like we we need
24:56
you to understand how how that feels when you come in to them, like
25:02
a like like a bull in a china shop, you know, covet edge
25:07
just running in and you know it's like, hey, I'm really so excited
25:10
about such and such. They really don't understand that, and things like uh,
25:15
well you you've had Maurice on the show, and uh, what's what's
25:21
most uh uh personality? Uh? Profiling product program? What's a colonality?
25:33
Yea, but yeah, to figure out these these kinds of powerality, there
25:38
we go. Powerality. Oh that's terrible. I'm sorry mom that I forgot
25:42
that powerality. You know. Using systems like powernality to help people understand the
25:49
emotional status, the the processes that are internal to two people, that are
25:57
native to people, you know, it can be so such important tools,
26:04
you know, and and I highly recommend getting getting one in place so that
26:11
you can help your people understand how to work with one another, especially especially
26:18
in the top down side of things, because the people at the bottom are
26:23
afraid of the people at the top because they don't want to be looking for
26:26
another job. Yeah. Well to your point, Bill, And one of
26:33
the reasons why we're all on here tonight too is those that that those that
26:36
do want to reach out to us and get more information please do. All
26:38
of us will respond happily to you. I found tip to this, what
26:44
you're saying I hear you saying, Bill, is that if you're going to
26:47
have a crucial conversation, sometimes it doesn't mean, like you said, either
26:51
be prepared going into it. I would also argue, just make the point
26:53
because this has been helpful for me where I've had difficult h R discussions human
26:59
resources where I actually either had a second person in the room talking with the
27:03
person. Don't always go it alone. Sometimes it's fine to be one on
27:07
one. I'm not saying that's not appropriate, but there may be a point
27:11
where you want to bring another person in to the conversation to help, you
27:15
know, again, address the issues and make sure that it's and that patient.
27:22
Yeah, go ahead, right, And who that person is could be
27:30
different depending on what the situation is, depending on what your nightmare scenario is.
27:37
I have a nightmare scenario back. This was back in the nineties when
27:42
when it's entirely possible we first met, but I was still going to school
27:48
at cal Poling and I was chair of the chair of the Road Slow Committee,
27:55
and uh, being new to leadership and not really understanding a lot of
28:00
the things that went on, I learned a really really hard lesson. One
28:07
of the one of the guys on my team recommended his sister for our committee
28:17
internal HR position. All she was going to do was make sure people were
28:22
put into the right positions, that that things ran smoothly, that we didn't
28:26
have any problems. And it turned out she was she had mental issues,
28:34
She had a record with the campus police. They had had to remove her
28:40
from from locations on campus before. I was surprised when I found out all
28:47
this. I'm like, and she's still allowed to be on campus after doing
28:49
these things we tried to she she was she was not the kind of person
28:56
who could work with anyone under any circums dances. And I let her in
29:03
a solely on her brother's recommendation, instead of interviewing, instead of checking on
29:10
records or or anything like that. It was inconceivable to me that someone might
29:17
have a police record. Who was who? Who would you know be going
29:19
to cal POLYA you know, go figure. I really didn't know anything.
29:23
And you know, we had our advisor go to her and try to get
29:30
her to step down from the position. And she started calling foul on on
29:38
on race and UH and gender and age and all these kinds of every ism
29:47
you could you could you could come up with. And so thankfully one of
29:56
the other ladies on the committee happened to be in her demographic very closely related
30:04
in her demographic and so we had her make the motion to kick her out
30:11
and we act, but we literally had to call pd to to get her
30:18
out of the of the facility. We had to escort this the poor lady
30:22
home who moved to have her be dismissed from the committee. We had to
30:27
escort her home. We had we had her in one person's car driving the
30:33
opposite direction, and the and somebody else drove her car home just in case
30:40
she was followed. Just it was just a nightmare of nightmare scenarios. And
30:47
you know, you really have to be careful about these things. You have
30:51
to go in. Sometimes you have to go in what was a charm really
30:56
said last we higher cut you know, so that you can manage easy and
31:06
uh, you know, sometimes you have to do that. You have to
31:08
imagine that the night mayor scenario is going to happen with this person. So
31:12
you have to root it out. You have to find it what what is
31:17
the problem going to be? And it's a terrible thing to have to think,
31:22
but they can happen, and uh and when they do, you need
31:26
to be prepared. Yeah, that's a good lead in then uh, you
31:33
know, the Sarian and again, you know you didn't have the crucial conversation
31:40
with this gentleman beforehand of like, hey, what would that look like?
31:42
Like you said, so on you and then that there's a consequences that you
31:47
had to deal without them all out there. So sometimes we don't. Sometimes
31:52
it doesn't. Maybe it's not like, yeah, we're seeing past beaver.
31:56
This is like a being proactive front end crucial conversation that needs to be had
32:00
too. It doesn't have to wait till things are bad. That would have
32:04
avoided it. So as we look at this, we kind of understand,
32:07
we've kind of you know, we've gone through identified why crucial conversations need to
32:12
be had. These these I call constructive conflicts or collisions, if you will.
32:16
And we started to talk a little bit about how to construct that,
32:21
how to set up that conversation, how to prepare. But I'll come back
32:24
to you, Adam again, as we're looking at tools or techniques, and
32:30
again it could be based on some specific scenario. I've mentioned performance reviews earlier,
32:36
But what are either We've talked a little of preparing or and or and
32:44
feel free to try me either one of these at them ways when you're actually
32:49
in ways of communicating. So you've mentioned a little bit about empathy, what
32:53
would you say for somebody, for example, that maybe doesn't have the empathy
32:58
card in their front pocket. You know, sure if you kind of go
33:02
the exact opposite of empathy and really is going to go data driven numbers.
33:07
I believe everybody should have like KPIs or a scorecard kind of created for them
33:12
before they start the position. They should really know what they're getting into,
33:15
what they need to accomplish, if anything, smart goals. Sure, I'm
33:19
sure you guys discussed smart goals as well. And so when you have these
33:23
time based measurable goals that they're sitting in front of and the understand what's being
33:28
expected of them along with hopefully processes and procedures SOPs and so they can understand
33:34
fully what they should be accomplishing, the time frame and the goals involved with
33:37
it, it becomes very very natural and very easy to have conversations with them.
33:43
And what I like to use is actually something called a communication log.
33:46
And I would use a communication log is very simple as the employee's name,
33:52
and then it goes to what's being discussed and then at the very end it
33:57
is was this a safety topic, was this a business topic? Or was
34:00
just a general conversation you had? And I use these quite often. It
34:06
couldn't. It could be against something less a concern that we want them to
34:08
improve on. And I also would use them proactively for successes. I would
34:13
make it both. I say, hey, you had you know, some
34:15
rough times this past week. I would love to see these things that we
34:17
could work on changing and improving. I give them opportunity to discuss into it.
34:22
They can run on that log with me. We can make a plan
34:24
together to see how we can accomplish these and we'd both sign it at the
34:27
end and the same way, we would have a conversation about, Hey,
34:31
you nailed it. You knocked it out of the park last week. I
34:35
think I gave you some things any deliverables on and you also delivered X,
34:38
Y and Z. You made things much better for the entire team because of
34:43
this, and knowing that this, I wouldn't want to put this down on
34:45
the log, So next time we have a deeper conversation, I'm going back
34:50
to this log again. It's not hey, you're always failing hear what's going
34:52
on? Why am I always having a conversation. I'm like, oh,
34:55
because I may have thirty employees fifty one hundred employees like, wait, you
34:59
know what, I may have had two conversations this person in the past six
35:01
months because they're dated, but I also had one of these was a really
35:05
good conversation. Now they really were successful also, and this is also a
35:08
wonderful tool when you're having those maybe bi annual or annual reviews. You go
35:15
back into that conversation, that communication log, and you kind of get down
35:17
this communication lot and say, okay, great, I see here that there's
35:21
some things we discussed. Let's review this did Was there improvements? Was there
35:24
not improvements? Was there a backslide? Did we succeed on here? And
35:29
again, just kind of how you guys were reviewing the same before. Bi
35:32
annual or annual review should never be a surprise. There's everything that's on that
35:37
should just be a recap of what they already known, what you already know.
35:40
No one should go in there with any kind of worries. And that
35:44
always made it very easy for me. In fact, my employees already know
35:46
exactly what we're going to talk about. Me getting there, it didn't become
35:49
a two hour conversation in the battle. It was like, hey, thanks,
35:52
we already know where we're at, we know what we accomplished. Let's
35:55
go and just focus on these goals we really want to achieve to move the
35:59
needle forward. It wasn't like, okay, now let's talk about you and
36:04
I don't want to do this is awkward because what's the number one thing that
36:07
every leader in the company is always saying, and it goes in every single
36:09
book, every written thing, is always like I hate reviews, I hate
36:13
telling people if they're bad or you know, everyone like saying yeah, you're
36:15
good, and no one likes saying hey, what you're accomplished on. But
36:19
these tools you can do is get your KPIs, get your SOPs, get
36:22
your processes in place, know what you want them to accomplish with their with
36:27
their scorecards, and you know, making sure it's small smart goals that they
36:30
can and make sure in these smart goals that they're working on is that they
36:34
can actually affect it. Don't put somebody's on the engineering team in charge of
36:37
accounting numbers. You know, say hey, I want higher profits. I
36:42
don't care if you're on the engineering team. That's what you're in charge.
36:44
If they can't control it, they can, why are you putting that on
36:46
there? It's not fair for them. Right, Make sure there's things that
36:49
they can control, and then you have these conversations, hey, you could
36:52
controls. We agreed on these goals, and we make these goals. Always
36:55
make try and make them with them, right, don't just throw them.
36:58
Be logical, make them with them, write them down together, and make
37:01
some timelines for some smartles, and when they achieve them or not, you
37:05
need to make some notes and you try and make some corrections and hopefully everythink
37:07
keeps going in the same direction, no surprises, and Arabe kind of understands
37:10
and becomes actually a very productive conversation. They're typically excited to be a part
37:15
of. Yeah. I like that what they can affect, because sometimes I
37:20
feel like there's some conversations that are being had and you've given people certain things
37:23
to work on which they either haven't But I found some challenging things with clients
37:30
is they have a signed and things they've given an assignment, but the person
37:34
hasn't fully bought in or or or acknowledged it. It's like it's like just
37:37
giving to them, but it's not like a clean handoff, and then the
37:42
person that did it gave it to them as frustrated and they're like, oh
37:44
man, I got to talk with them whatever, But did you did they
37:45
have body, did they understand? Were they all in? Were they committed
37:50
or was there or was it you know? And so you have to own
37:53
your side of it, and you know, I identify that. So that's
37:58
a really good point, Adam, being careful about what you're giving to them,
38:02
because if you're saying, well, like you said at the beginning of
38:05
the episode, the crucial conversation maybe myself, I I is it really me?
38:08
Or is how's affecting the greater you know company here? Right? How
38:15
about you? How about you? Bill? What are some things that you
38:17
have found helpful in either preparing for either preparing for a conversation or a way
38:27
of communicating that conversation. Well, I love like I like Adams communications logs.
38:37
That's that's really a good a good thing. I'm always reminded of private
38:44
support back in school. You know, Uh Bill's doing great, but he
38:49
could blah blah blah, you know, or you know, he could pay
38:52
attention more or you know, uh oh, Bill's uh Bill Bill did this.
38:59
That was really good because if you until the final grade comes out,
39:05
it's too late. Sorry, did you guys lose me for a second?
39:09
You're still there? I was like, if we lost there went dark?
39:15
Yeah, still there. Lightning is sitting pretty close here, steady, Adam
39:22
just worried about you. Thank you. I've seen lightning and that we're seeing
39:29
lightning out of his back window. Yeah, and then you're gonna have to
39:32
go and watch the YouTube or catch us on there if you're listening online,
39:36
So go ahead. Sorry, I apologize, Bill, Thank you. Oh
39:43
and Bell's now frozen? Are you back Bell? No problem? No.
39:46
What I was saying is, oh, yeah, I'm think I'm here is
39:54
what was that? There should be something to do as a as a progress
40:00
report throughout the throughout the period of the performance review, because if you are
40:07
waiting and till the perforation, it's already too late. You know, it's
40:15
it's whatever, it is becoming trend. There's nothing you can do about it
40:22
now and uh and then and then the other bonuses is having thing like a
40:28
communication log enables you to be able to work on improving communication. Because we've
40:35
talked about it before that the Communication is something that's so critical to to business,
40:43
but it's so difficult to improve because there are no direct measurements to communication.
40:50
You can't have more communications, you know. You can't just say,
40:52
oh, we're going to communicate more. You have to be able to say
40:55
we're going to do three more of these and four more of this and uh.
41:00
You know, so having having logs that showed what was communicated and when
41:06
and uh and some kind of rating scale as to how well it went,
41:09
how well it was received, you know, that can be marked on the
41:14
communication log as well to h to know what you're going to be dealing with
41:17
when that performance review comes up. Yeah, I have a couple of thoughts.
41:22
I wanted to run you went by you guys before we wrap up our
41:25
episodes, because these are some things I've done and and and again open.
41:29
I like that we have We don't always have to agree on this podcast.
41:31
That's one thing I like is having different minds and thoughts on how we do
41:35
these things. One thing I did from time to time. Depending again,
41:40
if this is catching the crucial, I would say catching the crucial conversation very
41:44
early on, or we're seeing something start to percolate. If you will pop
41:49
up and where I've seen it in an individual or individuals and it's like kind
41:57
of nipping in the bud where rather well, I can still talk them individually.
42:00
I have no problem with that, but sometimes I found it to be
42:02
more effective to do a group conversation, meaning kind of not singling out somebody,
42:08
but just saying I've noticed a trend, I've noticed things going on in
42:12
the company, and this is how we're addressing and if it gets worse,
42:16
of course I can have that conversation, but it kind of opens up the
42:19
conversation. It doesn't need to listen. I don't at that point need to
42:22
single out anybody because it's probably a couple of different people are or are doing
42:25
this or have adopted a certain way of being, and it's like, well,
42:30
that's not quite an alignment with what we want to be doing. And
42:32
so having that either group conversation or at least getting information out to the team,
42:40
like you were talking about earlier, Adam, kind of this is who
42:43
we are. This is again we've got maybe reset, like you said,
42:46
Bill, some expectations. So maybe we look we internally as lead us cleaning
42:52
too. It's like, you know what that policy or procedure, like you
42:54
said, Adam, isn't quite clear, So I probably need to republish or
42:59
reset that out so then I can recalibrate, get realignment, because I really
43:04
can't call anybody at this point because it is fuzzy, it's a little messy,
43:07
and so I want to I want to clean it up and look at
43:12
that policy procedure before I have that conversation, right thoughts Adam or or I'll
43:16
go to you Adam or Bill as we're kind of wrapping it up for sure.
43:21
No, I agree, you know, sometimes I always like to attack
43:24
the policy before the person. Sometimes we're just not clearing what we want.
43:29
We're so excited, we're driving ten different things and they're thinking that they understand
43:32
what we're saying, but we are saying something completely different than what they are
43:37
trying to achieve themselves. And so look at the policy of the procedure,
43:39
making sure we're all on the same page first, if they've already read over
43:44
it, we all agree on where we're going, what we're supposed to be
43:45
doing, how we're trying to achieve it, and they're just not able to
43:49
follow it. Then it goes down to does this policy perscedure need to be
43:52
adjusted. You know, is everyone having the same kind of problem that you
43:55
are having. If not, we find out, okay, is it cultural
44:00
difference? Is it a business difference? And then we say, if it's
44:02
a cultural difference and we're not looking to change the culture of the company,
44:07
well maybe we need to help them find a place in the company where or
44:08
a different division where it will work, or help them find a new home
44:13
for themselves outside of the business where they can be more successful, because it's
44:16
just as not it's also just not as fair to hold on to them when
44:19
they can be more successful somewhere where they can move forward in a culture that
44:22
makes sense to them, in the style of a business that they like to
44:25
perform it at mm hmm, yeah. Built any other thoughts there? Well,
44:35
one way to uh to do that to get well, to get the
44:39
buying is is important when you're when you're changing or introducing new new tactics,
44:47
techniques, protocols, what have you. And the best one of the best
44:53
ways to do that is to get the people, the employees, the organization
45:00
to create it. You know, go to the go to them. This
45:05
is an issue we're having. What do you all think and guide them toward
45:12
an appropriate solution. That that way they can say, you know, in
45:16
the future. You know, it's like when the problem comes up again,
45:21
Hey we came up with this, We need to make this work and uh,
45:27
and it gives it gives people a little pride ownership. Yeah, like
45:30
I mean, you let them run free and wild as far as as far
45:35
as coming up with the solution. You know, you are the leader.
45:38
You you need to guide them. But but yeah, there's definitely a place
45:46
for that, Bill, and I think inviting uh, feedback, whether it
45:52
be a group conversation, a poll survey, something like that, that which
45:55
they can provide input for for further consideration. So as we're as we're coming
46:02
to an end end of the podcast, here is this to go around.
46:06
I really appreciate you both being here. I want to come back to you
46:08
Bill for final thoughts and takeaways and Adam here in a moment just but just
46:13
you know, we've covered a lot. Just to go back, we've kind
46:15
of you know, identified here the need for crucial conversations, constructive conflict,
46:21
don't hide from it, you know, need to run into it, face
46:24
it. And we've come up with some ways of identifying them and tools and
46:29
tachingques in which way we can address them, prepare and have better conversations.
46:32
So, out of all these things we've covered tonight, Bill, what's kind
46:36
of your key takeaways and things that you know you want to leave here in
46:40
insights that you've taken and share with our listeners. Well, I think I
46:45
think a great idea was Adam's communication lags. I think that's something that can
46:52
be adapted to to most multi employee companies and could be very useful and developing,
47:00
developing all sorts of productive things. You know, your your your s
47:07
o p S, your TTPs, your your KPIs all of those great initial
47:13
things and uh yeah, and a great way to to build up to to
47:22
that all important performance review. Great, thanks Bell, Adam, We're so
47:29
glad to have you here. You've added a lot to the conversation. What
47:31
are what our final thoughts and takeaways you have And the biggest one to say
47:36
is it's okay to be afraid, but it's even better to conquer those fears,
47:43
you know, and if the fear is just having those important conversations,
47:46
you know, welcome those conversations. Welcome those fears, and then as you
47:51
conquer them, they will no longer control you, and you'll find these conversations
47:54
not just easier, but even more productive and sometimes fun to have these deeper
48:00
and siations with your employees because they will appreciate the fact that you were coming
48:02
to them earnestly, give them opportunity also to improve, which will help them
48:07
become better employees and hopefully better leaders as they're growing through your organization as well.
48:13
Yeah, well, that's that's so powerful. Yeah, and we don't
48:15
want any of me living living with fear, doubt, worry, anxiety.
48:17
That is not a productive state of being. Well, have it like it's
48:22
not. It's all part of our human condition, just a matter. Let's
48:23
let's face it and overcome that together. So I really appreciate those thoughts,
48:27
Adam. I hope all of those those that are listening and watching can take
48:30
some of that with you tonight and incorporate that in your next conversation. Look
48:36
for those and have those crucial conversations. And if you're struggling with this or
48:40
something like you're like, well I just not quite know how to do this,
48:44
or I want more support, reach out to Adam Bill myself. We're
48:47
happy to connect with you, drop a comment in here. We do appreciate
48:51
all of your feedback as you've listened in and share your insights. We always
48:55
appreciate that, like we said earlier, like subscribe all of those fun things,
49:00
follow us along. We're on YouTube and love to have you listen or
49:04
listen to us on any of your favorite pop podcast platforms. So again,
49:07
Adam and Bill, thank you so much for joining me back here on the
49:12
Business Roundtable podcast. The next time, have a great evening. Thanks for
49:17
having me again, you too,