Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / Gryphon Gear Creator & Owner Gary Benninger | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 32
Transcript
- speaker-0: Alright everyone, welcome back to Beyond the Trailhead. This week we have a great guest with us. We got ⁓ Gary Beninger from Griffin Gear. Gary, nice to s finally see you again. How are you? speaker-1: Thank you. Nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me. speaker-0: No, thank you. I I appreciate it. I I we we randomly met through a f a mutual friend, so to speak, ⁓ and just wanted to get to know a little bit more about you and your company. We've had other quilt ⁓ and sleeping bag brands on here, but I love hearing one, the s the story of the founder, you know, how you became the company that you are, that came up with the idea behind it. I know just from chatting with you a lot, you've got so much life experience that I just love hearing stories. You got some cool pictures behind you, even right there, that I know are just amazing. So I guess without further ado, Gary, if you don't mind just telling us a little bit about Griffin Gear, how you got started, and we'll I don't know, I'll get of course ask you more questions from there, but just tell us a little more about yourself and and your history. speaker-1: Yeah, you can see there. Sure, sure. Well, you know, I just kinda liked ⁓ outdoors and particularly the wintertime. I have a kind of a thing for for cold weather. I don't know. You know, a lot of your people that might be watching this might be ⁓ you know three season friends, but somehow you know I added it up once. I th I I've got over a hundred nights sleeping on the snow. Okay. So ⁓ you know, so anyway, I start reading about this though. I I mean, I was in high school. I read about Admiral Byrd's ⁓ ⁓ expeditions to the South Pole and and how they kept warm. You know, so I so I made myself a a ⁓ shell garment at that point. And yeah and and and and I I had a paper out and and my father and I went together and bought my first Doubt sleeping bag. Okay. So so anyway, that kind of got me started. But then I went off to college and kind of forgot about all that stuff for a while. And ⁓ and and then though after I got out of school I ⁓ Met with a friend and he wanted to show me some things. And he took me in the back room of his apartment. And here he had a tent, he had a pack. I said, Man, I'm ready to go. Let's go. And so so I I went out and got a few things. And and but at the end of the day, when I looked around at down gear and so on, I I felt I could I could make I could make things just as good as I could buy. Yeah. So so I made a pair. I mean, the first thing I made was a down jacket, then I made down pants, and then I made a down sleeping bag, and I made a cold weather sleeping bag. That I've since used ⁓ down to ⁓ minus 25 in the White Mountains. ⁓ so so so that's how I kind of got started making this stuff. But ⁓ but I got into a the Cleveland Mountaineers. I was living in Cleveland. I was working at NASA at the time at the National Airs and Space Administration as a research scientist. And so I joined the club and so so. You know, a lot of it was climbing, but a lot of it was other outdoor activities like whitewater rafting and and ⁓ winter mountaineering and that kind of thing. And we we would go to the Adirondacks every winter, every every Christmas ⁓ New Year's break. So ⁓ so then all these guys saw my gear and they started to say, Hey, how about making me this? How about making me this? One guy one guy got six sleeping bags for me. Six sleeping bags. Okay. He had he had two for mild weather, two for medium weather, and two. too cold weather. Yeah. ⁓ you know, and the cold weather bags, ⁓ he was with me as well as another guy we're in the White Mountains at minus twenty five, you know, and everybody sleeping in my sleeping bags, right? And nobody got cold. I mean it, you know, we make sure, yeah, you know, that's part of that's part of Griffin gear. And that is that is we overstuff our our our our ⁓ bags of quilts to make sure people stay warm. In other words, if you buy a something for it has a twenty degree rating, it's gonna be warm at twenty degrees. It's not a survival n number. So so that's kind of how I got started way back when I formed a little company back there and so on. But ⁓ you know, life gets in your way sometimes and ⁓ you know you have children and and and so on. So so I went along then for a number of years and did did minimal backpacking and so on, but but then ⁓ come around the turn of the century here and I speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I started thinking about this again. And of course I had a lot of trips in between, but ⁓ about 2011 I said, I'm not finished with this outdoor stuff. Yeah. Okay. So so I created Griffin Gear. And ⁓ so it's it's like it's a it's a project that ⁓ it number one, it's not done, but number two, it's never ending. Yeah. Okay. So I look at it like that. There there are challenges every day, and ⁓ you have a technical background. I try to apply science where applicable. And, you know, maybe we'll talk about some of that a little bit as we go. Yeah. Like a vapor radiation barrier ⁓ that we use in a sleeping bag. That that's all ⁓ technology based ⁓ kind kind of stuff. So that's ⁓ you know that kind of gives you an idea, you know, I've had a couple go arounds with this thing. ⁓ you know, back back back when and ⁓ then but ⁓ you know a lot of things have changed and we can talk about that as we go. principally principally the weight of everything. Okay. Okay. So you go ahead. I'll toss it back to you. No. speaker-0: Yeah. No, so so for people who are listening right now too, like I I know I had said quilts and sleeping bags, but what ⁓ what would you think stands out for you with Griffin Gear that's like your kind of like, Hey, we do this in a different way than most people do? speaker-1: Well, ⁓ several things. ⁓ you know, one of the things we've incorporated on our sleeping bags is we have this frost bib, okay, which is ⁓ right up near your chin. It's ⁓ one of the the the top baffer basically we use sil nylon. Now one of the things, I mean, if if you're out in the winter time, you know, in cold weather, you get condensation from your breath on your sleeping bag and you get it wet. And and if it's cold enough, you'll freeze and you'll have ice on the sleeping bag. And and and basically this ⁓ addresses that. Yeah. Okay. You can just wipe it off. Okay. Now if you didn't have the experience of sleeping out in the wintertime, you wouldn't know about that, right? Yeah. So so so we've applied that. And ⁓ you know, the other thing is ⁓ you know, you can look at ⁓ the we we do an overfill, maybe percent overfill, you know, and people say, Well, what's what's ⁓ what's overfill? Well, you know, we use nine hundred ⁓ fuel power ⁓ goose down. And and so the question comes out is what's fuel power? Well well nine hundred fuel power means one ounce of down will will fill nine hundred cubic inches. It will deaden that much airspace. Okay, and you have to deaden it so that you don't have air moving around and convection currents and it and and and and and transporting ⁓ heat. So ⁓ So this overfill then, ⁓ what we we do with that with with the eighty percent overfill means that for example, if one ounce fills nine hundred ⁓ cubic inches, if you put two ounces in the nine hundred cubic inches, that's a hundred percent overfill. Okay. So that gives you an idea. So we're we're at eighty percent. Okay. Okay. Now what does eighty percent do? It does a couple of things for you. Number one, it it resists shifting, okay, because down speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: You know, down's pretty light and and it you know, when it all fluffs up, you know, if you tilt it around a lot, sometimes it'll shift around. So the more you put in there, the less shifting you get. And the other thing is the density goes up, and there is there is some impact on the ⁓ heat transfer as a function of density, but you know, we'll get into that another time. Yeah. But ⁓ but nevertheless, those are those are things ⁓ that make us different. Okay. And ⁓ the other thing is ⁓ our side block baffle and our sleeping bags. ⁓ you know, a lot of people just sew a tube. Yeah. Tube all up behind a zipper. But ours is actually a continuation of the sleeping bag. It's as though you made the sleeping bag five or six inches wider and put the zipper up on the side of it. Yeah. Okay. So so it basically you get something that looks like this. Yeah. Okay. And and where my fingers are the twos. Yeah. Okay. And the zipper is right here where they it overlaps. So so that's very unique. And there's a lot of work goes into that. It's a lot more than sewing a tube on. Okay. So ⁓ you know, and and ⁓ you know, we do calculations, you know, but of course anybody that makes sleeping bags has to do the same thing, you know, where you have have the you know how much you're gonna put in each ⁓ each ⁓ you know, I I saw something interesting, you know, I just kind of throw it out here. You know, back back a long time ago there there was, you know, a pretty well known company. And and the sleeping bag, the tubes varied in width. You know, pretty much today you see they're all the same, right? Yeah. So if they're all the same, but the length changes, then you have to vary the amount of down that you put in each tube, right? Okay. But here, what I what I think, I never measured it, but but it made the width of the tubes different. You know, as you got more narrow, the tubes got wider. And it basically made it so he puts the same amount of down in each tube. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Which from a manufacturing standpoint, that's semi brilli, you know, it's yeah, a little bit brilliant. Okay. You know. But again, what happened was what what that also brought around was it the wider the tube, you you actually get a higher loft out of that tube. Okay. So the the the the tubes then as you got closer to foot, it got they actually got thicker. You got more loft out. Which It's something to think about because you know smaller parts of your body lose more heat than the center part. And yeah, and maybe your legs, that would be a good thing to do. Okay. I did some calculations on that once upon a time, but ⁓ you know, that's something to revisit too. That's another thing to look at, see? speaker-0: You know, well when we started talking, I think the the best part about talking with you is you have like ⁓ some people just make quilts or just make ⁓ make things because they love they love it and but they don't necessarily know the technical side behind it. But for me, when I talk to you, I love the technical side of things sometimes too. And so when I hear it, I feel like you've put a lot more thought than some people have into it. And I I see that in the bag and I see that ⁓ in the quilt and stuff like that and and just taking the the care behind it. So do you think ⁓ I guess cause there was a ⁓ my my wife put a reel online, right? And it was a ⁓ it was a funny kid's math thing. And I thought it was so funny that you had emailed me and asked if my wife was doing ⁓ something with speaker-1: Quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics. It was a shredinger wave ⁓ equation. speaker-0: Yeah, and she had just found an equation online and put it put it on the thing. And million I think that reel had gotten like five or six million views, but no one had said anything about the equation on the thing except for you. And I thought it was great that you had you had seen that. So I think that's a great thing that you have a different perspective on it. It's one you have the experience in the outdoors that not as many people not trying to age you or anything, of course, but like you know speaker-1: Pretty obvious, right? ⁓ speaker-0: But you have that one, you have the knowledge and the experience, but you also have the technical side of it that I don't think a lot of people always do, which can can sometimes hinder it, right? Can and can sometimes make it really, really good. Because on the other hand, you might try to overthink it sometimes versus just going ahead and doing it, right? I'm sure you kind of run into that. I I sometimes overthink a lot of things that I do and I'm like, okay, I just need to go ahead and and do it. So it's great that you have come into the to the space and gone, okay, I want to make this and you're One, you're doing the overstuffing and you've got these different ideas. I know I had seen ⁓ a really cold weather bag that you do as well. It's got like a reflective type of ⁓ coating on it as well. I I'm I'm butchering it, of course, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it reflects the heat more and everything else, like you've explained it to me. So ⁓ how how did you how do you go about ⁓ refining your product or how do you go about creating new ideas like that? Like I I know you've said A bunch of different ideas that you have and how do you go about picking that one idea and going, Okay, I'm gonna now just do this quilt versus the other ideas that maybe you have. speaker-1: Yeah, well, it it all comes down to focus, you know, and and and going back to basics, okay. It's always going back to basics, okay? And ⁓ if you ever heard of any of the Feynman lectures, Richard P. Feynman, a Nobel laureate in physics, okay. He always went back to basics, okay. So you always go back to basics. So you know, and if you're in a sleeping bag of a quilt, you're dealing with heat transfer. Yeah. Okay. And you you mentioned our ⁓ BBR, Taurus VBR. BBR stands for vapor radiation barrier. And that's what that aluminized dionema lining is in that sleeping bag. Okay, because sleeping bags normally address ⁓ heat loss by there there are four methods of heat transfer conduction, convection, radiation, and evaporation. So ⁓ those are the basics, right? So you go back to basics and you say, okay, can I apply these basics to sleeping bags, right? So normally a regular sleeping bag addresses ⁓ conduction and maybe some convection, but convection is normally on the outside as opposed to in the insulation. So, but they don't address ⁓ radiation or evaporation. So you say, well, what can we do about that? Okay, so radiation, you know, we get warmth from the sun by radiation. I mean, there's no conduction. Okay. So so so How does all that work? Well, there's a technical term. There's a Stefan Boltzmann law, okay, which has to do with radiation. And you know, that can be applied. But with that aside, you know, it comes down to shiny surfaces. Shiny surfaces ⁓ are are radiate heat back to you, where dark surfaces absorb heat. Okay, so so that's an emissivity type of ⁓ number. And so So, so that's one of the key things in this Stefan Bosmalan. So, anyway, ⁓ so if you illuminize a surface, it'll tend to be more reflective. And you see these space blankets around, okay? That's their concept. They don't address conduction, ⁓ they address the the radiation. Now, the other thing is evaporation. Now, you know, evaporation is kind of interesting because you know, when you sweat, you know, you evaporate moisture and it takes heat from your body, right? Yeah. So, so when that heat evaporates, it takes 240 calories per gram of moisture that's evaporated from your body. Now, those aren't those aren't dietary calories. Those are a dietary calorie is a thousand of these, you know, true calories. Okay. Okay. So so basically that would be a half, uh.54 of dietary calories, okay? But you know, for the am amount of water that you might lose from your body in the wintertime, and you see, you say, why do you you're in a sleeping bag, you're not sweating. Sh yes, you're losing moisture by what they call in s insensible perspiration. And the reason you're the reason you're losing the moisture is because the the ⁓ relative humidity in your sleeping bag is very, very low. In other words, you take the air at zero degrees, say, And you bring that air, which might be fifth, say 50% relative humidity, and you bring it in your sleeping bag and you warm it up to your body temperature. All of a sudden, you know, that air now is at say four percent approximately. It's approximately four percent relative humidity, and that's drier than a desert. Okay. So what happens is your body loses moisture and doesn't even know it. Okay. Because you're in a very, very low ⁓ humidity ⁓ type of environment. All right. Now When that when that moisture evaporates, it takes heat from you. So how can you stop that from happening? What you do is you put a vapor barrier in. Okay. Now we use the the dynema because it's aluminized, but you could use a coated fabric as well. Or you could sleep in a garbage bag. Okay. It'll work. Okay. It's it stops an aluminum garbage bag would do the same thing. Okay. Okay. And and and so it stops the ⁓ ⁓ evaporation from your body. But now the the there is a a potential problem with it, and that is if you get into warm weather, it's very clammy. Okay. And so so we only recommend this for below freezing, below z 32 degrees Fahrenheit or zero degrees Celsius type of application. Now the other thing it keeps from happening is if you're an extended in in in the cold weather for an extended period of time, this moisture from your body You know, that's going out through the lining, it's in a form of a water vapor. But when it reaches the dew point, it will condense to into liquid, into moisture. And that moisture will accumulate in the insulation, whether it's down or polyester or whatever, it'll accumulate in your bag. Okay. So this tends to kill off the loft. And so over an extended period of time, that accumulates. And if it if it doesn't kill off the loft, ⁓ you're in a polyester or something. It just gets heavier and heavier and heavier and heavier. Okay. So ⁓ and it it kills off the insulating capability. Yeah. So so the ⁓ vapor barrier bag is good for extended periods of time at low temperatures to keep that from occurring. Okay. So that's not generally discussed anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: That's good info. Like, yeah. I think people don't even realize it. Like, you know, even if you're creating a product, you know, if someone's out there and they're doing their make your own gear style thing and they're like, ⁓ I love this thing. They you there's certain things you have to look at, you know, not just creating something and putting enough down in it. Right. It's you have to look at all these different aspects. And I think that's why I like listening to you speak is you're giving me so much more information. that I never would have even thought of. Yeah. You know, not not every consumer needs to have that info, but I think from the product perspective, if at the companies who are listening, you have to do that research. You have to do a lot more research sometimes so that way you don't make those bigger mistakes. speaker-1: Right, exactly. A lot of outdoor people tend to be a little bit on the techy side. I mean, I'd run into that and they they kinda like that. Okay. And the other thing is this vapor radiation barrier Taurus bag was also tested ⁓ in Alaska and was written up in Backpacker magazine a few years ago. The tester ended up buying the bag. And he also teaches ⁓ he teaches ⁓ winter outdoorsy things ⁓ in Alaska. And and he liked the whole concept and the whole thing, so I gave him a deal. Okay. So speaker-0: That's great. ⁓ yeah. That's cool. So like if ⁓ you know if someone's listening right now, is there anything since you've been creating your quilts and sleeping bags and the way that is there any kind of moment when you were creating it where you were like, ⁓ man, you've had an ⁓ crap moment where something has just been really, really hard or really, really crazy? speaker-1: Well, yeah, the a couple things, maybe. ⁓ one th one thing is is when I first got into this again, I wanted to create a website. Yeah. So so a friend of mine knew somebody that had a company that did that. So I went to these guys and they they they created our first website, very nice website. Okay, but it cost a lot of money. Yeah. Okay. And ⁓ later on though, we ⁓ look got into this a little bit more and And I had an associate that was helping me on a couple of things and we just actually and and and this is not a plug for Shopify, but we were on Shopify and ⁓ he created a a a like website and just created a like in a few days. Okay. And and ⁓ it was ⁓ gee whiz, ⁓ I wish I'd known that before. Okay. And but now ⁓ some of these designs get a little bit tricky. Okay. That's the other kind of not so easy thing. Yeah. ⁓ you know, when you get into our Gemini sleeping bag with the hood and everything, there's multi you know, a lot of things have to come together right. ⁓ you know, in the sewing card and the and the patterns and making these patterns and everything. You know, patterns are kind of fun to make. It takes a bit of time, but you know, you you have to be a little careful. ⁓ and then doing all the calculations and everything. But but I I would say the the the expense of the website the first time around was ⁓ the The biggest o ⁓ crap kind of thing. speaker-0: Okay. Do you think that do you think that from your side of it, right? Being a technical person and saying like a lot of people in the outdoor space, you know, tend to be 'cause I I I meet all all kinds of people and they come up with a great product, but n might not necessarily know the marketing side of it, right? And so do you think from your speaker-1: My weakness, okay. Yeah. That's my weakness. Okay. I'm the tech side and and and and the marketing side has big the big been the biggest challenge, okay. Yeah. For us. You know, reaching enough people and reaching people and people ⁓ you know, one of the things that has been ⁓ interesting though is ⁓ Reddit Ultralight. Now Reddit Ultralight ⁓ you know, one of the administrators of ⁓ of that ⁓ website. ⁓ is ⁓ you know I'm located in the greater Detroit area here in Michigan. So so one of the administrators is here in this area. So he actually came to my house and you know we showed I showed him everything and you know expedition parkers and everything, right? Yeah anyway. So he did a little write up and I did a write up and it kind of got things ⁓ kicked off. ⁓ and and and I really ⁓ appreciate that assistance ⁓ You know, I I it's you know, you assistance may be that ⁓ not quite the right word. But nevertheless, ⁓ that help in getting getting things kicked off and getting it going. And and the other thing is when people you know, I've ⁓ we've gotten a lot of positive comments on our gear. Everybody seems to be be happy. ⁓ I got very little ⁓ negative feedback on anything. But nevertheless, ⁓ when they put it in in Reddit, ⁓ that that helps a lot. Okay. That helps a lot. And of course of course we're doing a a bit of Instagram and social networking that way. And we get quite a few hits ⁓ on it depends on you know how broad we we put it out. But nevertheless, yeah ⁓ we'll we're gett we're getting ⁓ that as well. But ⁓ the Reddit people and people I g get quite a few emails too. You know, that's something that maybe we could mention here and that is That is a lot of people want something custom. They want something not quite like is on the website. So yeah, we're pretty flexible on that. Being a small company, we can do that. Okay. But that that means also that we make everything to order. And that is, you you have to wait four to six weeks till you get it because because when I added up how many options, you know, even on the quilts, I mean it was it it was over 200. Okay. And that is. that you have this width, you know, you got four different widths, you've got three different lengths, you've got three different colors, and you multiply each one of those out and that gives you how many potential options or you know choices that you have and you just couldn't stock all that. You know, it would cost you millions just to to stock that. So so we make everything custom. And and ⁓ but that means though that you might be able to make tweak something for somebody. Yeah. Okay. And we try to do that. and you know, if it's ⁓ you know just minor modifications that we usually don't charge anything extra for it. And even we've I've even redone some patterns to make some things and we haven't charged for the work that went into making a pattern. So so you know, like dual dual sleeping bags, we've made several of those or quilts, dual quilts, you know, extra wide, eighty eight inches wide, you know, for ⁓ ⁓ and we made ⁓ you know, ⁓ made several of those. So and then we usually make our ⁓ Taurus bags with a zipper on the left, but somebody wanted to be able to make them. Okay. And you have to have sep separating zippers and one has to be on one side, one has to be on the other. Yeah. So I I you know, we made made some of those ⁓ last month. So ⁓ you know, there's there's flexibility and and so so I'm getting emails from time to time. You know, I always have a couple emails going where somebody wants to modify this or change this or do this or can you do this for me or whatever. So a little bit gotta be a little bit careful about it, you know, but nevertheless it's ⁓ it's something that we can try to accommodate people. Let's put it. speaker-0: No, I think it's great that like ⁓ you know, you know, quote unquote cottage brands, you have the ability to do that kind of thing 'cause you're never gonna f get a mountain hardware sleeping bag with custom stuff. It's it is what it is. And I think speaker-1: It was sewn in China and they made several hundred of them and they shipped them by boat and and and you know. speaker-0: Yeah, speaker-1: That's a whole other that's a whole nother thing to discuss, right? speaker-0: No, yeah. When I meet people on the AT or when I was ⁓ near the PCT ⁓ last year, ⁓ I I would meet people and everybody loves to just customize their own, whether it's their look or what they're wearing or their gear, especially when you're gonna be out for that amount of time. Now, if you're out for one night a year and you're just a very casual person, it it doesn't matter. But when you're when you're out there for, you know, a month. Two, three months, or even two or three weeks, a a couple of trips a year, you want something that's going to be perfect for you. And I think that's the great part about you being able to customize it. So is there anything you could say to that customizing portion of it that is maybe it's great, but I know you said you gotta kind of be a little bit ⁓ careful on it too. That you you don't do so much custom that now you're just working so much. Like so. What are the limits or what are the things you find that are hard with doing the custom side of it? speaker-1: Well, there are some things that are easy to do, okay? Like widths are easy to do. I make put a larger foot in and just see some people have bigger feet and they want a larger footbox, okay? Yeah. ⁓ you know, that foot box I since I mentioned that, that's kind a That's sort of a it it it's a it's a subject. Some people make quilts so that they can open the foot box and get a lot of a lot of air, okay, or whatever. So usually you have some kind of zipper down that bottom piece of the quilt where it's sewn together and it goes around the foot end, and then you have a drawstring on the foot end, right? Now, you know, ⁓ so but I've always taken a little different approach to this. I said, you know, our quilts and Sleeping bags are for keeping you warm. Yeah. Okay. And if you try to bastardize this thing and try to make it so it's has all this flexibility and everything, you actually take away from everything. Okay. Yeah. You're not good at this and you're not good at that. All right. So we decided to be good at keeping you warm. Okay. speaker-0: Yeah. Right. You're specializing in keeping people warm instead of you can't like there's only so many things that one person can do, especially, right? Versus like for me, I have a I have a close toed ⁓ sleeping quilt, but I can simply just if I do need to, I just pull my feet out. But I also have an open quilt, but I'm like, then I have the Frustration of it does have some air leaks in it and stuff like that. So I I get both sides of it. I think that's great that you just were like, hey, we're gonna go and this is our thing. We're keeping you warm. speaker-1: Last time I was in the Adirondacks, I mean it's been maybe 10 years ago. You know, one of the guys had a sleeping bag that ⁓ you could open the foot and had a draw cord in and everything. He froze in its thing. The other thing it wasn't differentially cut either. And he was tight inside and the and the insulation was down. That's another point. And the insulation was down to to to about zero. So so the guy froze, but but he he wouldn't admit it. Okay. Okay. Now ⁓ Speaking of differentially cut, differentially cut means that the outside's cut bigger than the inside. In other words, the width. So it's like two circles inside of of one another, a small one on the inside and a bigger one on the outside. Okay. So if you put your elbows out like this, you don't end up that going down to zero thickness. Okay. All right. So you maintain thickness. Now that what that also does is allow the down to loft out. Yeah. If they're both cut the same, the outer can't get bigger, so the down has to loft in. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: So it takes away from the inner space. Now, some people call that space filler. Okay. Okay. But and and and it but what happens is if you buy a quilt, say that's 54 inches in width, if you get one where it's differentially cut, the 54 inches is a true 54 inches that you can use around you because the down goes out. Yeah. Now if you get the other one that's 54 inches. It's 54 inches on the outside, and the down has to come in. So your actual usable space is reduced. Okay. So you're not getting 54 inches wide. Okay. So I have a lot of questions about that sometimes. People say, Yeah, how how how wide is it really? And I say it's really 54 inches wide because it's differentially cut. Okay. And and and a number of quilts out there are not differentially cut. You know, you guys that try to say, okay. Yo they're strong on marketing but weak on product. Okay. Yeah, there's some of those out there too. Yeah. Okay. No, I think Okay. So we we were try we're s probably strong on product or weak on marketing, I guess. To be quite honestly. Yeah. Yeah. No. speaker-0: Think that what you're saying is very true. Is there's a lot of times, and I always ref reference back to my wedding photography ⁓ days too, and is that there I know a lot of photographers who are really, really good, but they just can't get work. And there's photographers that are they suck, but they're they got work out the wazoo because people are just hiring them because they're just really good at marketing and talking to Thomas. They just can't walk the walk, you know. And I think for anybody who's listening and you have a company that you're trying to grow and we just ⁓ had a guest on. I'm not sure if the episode is before this or after this, but ⁓ you need to find those things that that you're strong in and sometimes take that initiative to sub out the stuff that you're not very strong in. speaker-1: Get help. You gotta get help. Okay. You know, it's like Yeah, but it's like running a company. Okay. You know, I've been C CEO of a couple companies. Okay. Basically you can't do ⁓ you don't do everything, you know. You have you have a good team and ⁓ you know, and you delegate and everybody and and you get the job done. So it's a little bit like this is similar, okay. You know, we do certain things here, we do certain things well, but we don't do everything and we can't do everything, so we need some help. speaker-0: Hard when you're small though, right? speaker-1: Okay. Yeah. That's kind of one of the reasons we're talking today too, right? Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. And you're and like just going back to that whole thing about like there's only so much you can do. Like we talked earlier and like it's for people who are listening to like you're I mean it's just you right it's you and your wife making all these. It's not anybody else, it's just the two of you guys having fun, throwing down at each other and stuff and having a blast in the basement. speaker-1: She works a day she works a day shift. I work the night shift and weekends. speaker-0: That's great. ⁓ I guess my next question then leading into this whole thing is how is your relationship in the outdoors ⁓ you know, changed since you've grown your business? Like I know a lot of people can get disconnected from the outdoors, but you still find like yourself being a part of the outdoor space? speaker-1: Well, ⁓ I don't get out as much as I used to. Yeah. You know, there there's reasons I mean my knees a little sore and you know, some of these other things. But nonetheless, ⁓ even you know, two years ⁓ I I've participated in some outdoor clubs, okay. And ⁓ I even taught a class on how to make your own quilt. Okay. You know. ⁓ so you know, and I I I taught ⁓ parts of the winter winter classes. Okay. Okay. Having having a lot of winter experience and everything. So that keeps you in touch. Yeah. You know, even though a lot of the people you see, I I I told you about getting into the mountaineering club way back when those guys were die hard guys. Okay. That was yeah. You know, we're where the local outdoor club is kind of, you know, it's different. Okay. It's different. Okay. So so, but nevertheless. Nevertheless, people l like the outdoors in both cases. Okay. It's just it's just ⁓ the how much of it they want to drink, right? Yeah. So speaking. Okay. So anyway, but but you keep a touch that way, okay? Yeah. You know, and ⁓ you know, s people make the same mistakes all the time, okay? So you know, that doesn't change and and ⁓ like I was telling you a little while ago about the things that have changed over the years, though, are probably the materials. see, back back ⁓ when I did ⁓ sleeping bags the first time around, you know, ripstop. Well, there was taffeta and just like today, taffeta and ripstop. Okay. So those are you two. And quite honestly, ripstop is t is more a name than it is. Yeah, and how it works, okay? Because It and Taffeta, they're not not that much difference. But anyway, ⁓ today we use ⁓ when I started out, I I got some 20 denier fabric, and I ended up getting more 10 denier fabric just to even go lighter. But the fabric back in the old days was was 70 denier fabric, and it was 1.9 ounces per square yard. We're now the fabric today is below one ounce a square yard. Okay. So ⁓ so ⁓ and the term denure, I don't know whether you know what that term, denure, let's see, I believe is it's the weight in grams of nine, I think it's ⁓ let's see, nine kilometers. Nine kilometers of that fiber. Okay, now nine kilometers is what about six miles? Okay, five miles take a fabric five miles long and weigh it. Okay, if it comes out to ten grams. Okay. And it takes it takes twenty eight point three five grams in an ounce. Okay. So anyway, so you can see those fibers are really, really, really lightweight. Okay. Yeah. You know, they're thinner than the hair on your head, probably. Yeah. Okay. I haven't haven't done a measurement. But nevertheless. So that's that's what people are using in the quilts today. And tenure tenure ⁓ fabric fabrics made with ten genure fibers. Okay. And of course the other thing is. Back in the old days, the best down you could get was five fifty fuel power. Five five zero. Wow. Today, you know, you could you I mean a standard is eight fifty to nine fifty. Okay. So we have w we do nine hundred. Okay. So so it takes less down to give you the same lot. Yeah. Okay. So ⁓ so anyway, those are probably the biggest changes that I've seen. ⁓ You know, from back when to now. Okay. Yeah. And then So and people, you know, you can go ultra light's a real thing now. You know. You know, back then packs were a lot heavier. ⁓ yeah. Okay. Now you know, the heaviest pack I ever carried, I think, was in the White Mountains. You know, we were doing I mean, we were doing we were going to do the a lot of the presidential traverse. We got part of it done, but the weather got pretty bad on us. Okay, but the pack was sixty five pounds. Now, can't you imagine going up three or four thousand feet in one day in the snow with with sixty-five pounds on your back? Well, you know. I wouldn't want to do that again. ⁓ I'm a little old in the first place ⁓ to do that. But secondly, even if I were younger, I wouldn't want to do that again. So yeah. Everything's everything's a lot lighter today. Yeah. And people get down to these base weights, you know, where you don't have water, you don't have food. You go down in a ten pound range, okay. So then you know that's with your shelter, your bag, and you know. ⁓ you were asking ⁓ or ⁓ or we were talking about, you know, what's one piece of equipment you would like and one piece that you don't think's any very good. ⁓ you know, and I think about that, and the there are three peak three key pieces of equipment. Number one is ⁓ your your sleep system, your your bag and and and and and your pad. And the other is a tent, and the third one is a pack. Yeah. Okay. So those Those were probably the heaviest thing items too. So those are places to take the weight out. So that's what we've done. You know, and of course we make the quilts and we feel or the sleeping bags and we feel that we feel that's probably the most important because you know you can sleep in a shelter. You you don't need a tent necess necessarily. So but you gotta have that you gotta have that sleep thing 'cause you gotta get some kind of decent rest too. Yeah. You know. And the other thing is that ⁓ I I'm ⁓ yeah, you know, one of the things about Outdoor gear and things like that. It's kind of a lot of it's gone main main street. Okay. Okay. It's not backcountry. It's not mountaineering. It's just Main Street. Okay. And the thing, the thing that that probably best exemplifies that are these down jackets with the little skinny tubes. Okay. Okay. And you see them all over the place, right? Yeah. Now, now. You know how thick they are. I mean, they're maybe that thick, right? Yeah. Okay. So thickness is warmth at the end of the day. All right. So those things, I put ⁓ in the sweater category. Yeah. Okay. They're a down sweater. They're not a down jacket. And they look you know, they have a little cool look about them and everything. And you can you can you can wear them around the city, around the streets and everything. But if you're going to backcountry, You know, leave it at home. Okay. Or put it down at the bottom of your sleeping bag to help keep your feet warm or something. Okay. But nevertheless, it's ⁓ in my opinion, they're a joke. Okay. They're a joke. Okay. And you know, I mean, if you're a serious outdoorsman, they're a joke. Yeah. All right. You know, and you might I mean, now in the summertime that would work nice as a sweater to take along because the eanies can get kind of cool. Okay. Something like that. So, I mean, there's a use. Okay. Yeah. But it's not a back country. speaker-0: 'Cause I've seen a picture that you showed me of something that you sewed and I'll f if I can remember to put it on the screen, I will. Of like the that big ⁓ down jacket and pants and everything else that you had built for when you're out in the freezing cold. And 'cause for me, I'm a I'm a I'm a three season guy, but I have those four season moments that I'm out there and I'm just glad I have enough. I'll just pack extra, extra layers, but try to keep it where I'm still loose enough where I'm keeping the air. Flow as opposed to I th I know a lot of people will throw a lot of layers on and then it gets so tight there's no air being trapped now. And then you know. So ⁓ I t I totally get that. I have a a jacket that I bought from my wife years ago. She doesn't wear it at all. It's literally a ⁓ down jacket, but it's it's literally nothing. It's just like cloth and a little bit of feathers inside. And I'm like, why do we spend three hundred bucks on this thing? And it was literally just for what it looked like. Yeah. And I at that time I was buying it for looks, but I was also buying it for function for her ⁓ to wear. So she usually just wears it as like a prop whenever we'll have to take some pictures sometimes from five or five or six years ago or something like that. But ⁓ but yeah, so so speaker-1: Right. But let me add yeah. Let me add one other thing, and that is when you're out in the backcountry, you you don't wear the down jacket. Okay. Because it's way too much, way too much insulation. Okay. Yeah. Because you're working your, you know, off. Okay. I mean, you're working hard. And and most of the time you gotta worry deal with perspiration, with yeah, you know, not getting too damp. And I mean, in many cases, I've had my sh shirt un unbuttoned down to the waist. You know, and back in the old days I had some of this fishnet underwear. I don't know if you ever saw that, but yo, yeah ⁓ just to ⁓ because you were producing so much heat. So y where when it when you got to where you were going and you took your pack off and you took off maybe your ⁓ shawl garment, then you put the down jacket on. Okay. And then you're standing around. Okay. Then you're standing around, then you gotta keep warm. So so that's when you use the down jacket. So that's yeah phl philosophy, you know. And the experience. That's just experience, right? speaker-0: No, exactly. Yeah, when I take friends out, the funniest thing is they're not funny. I mean, I just it goes comes with experience, right? But when I take friends out for the first time and they've never been camping and then they start they've they're cold, we get out of the car and they've got all these layers on them like and I'm just in a t shirt and they're they're like, Man, aren't you cold? I'm like, Yeah, it's like that whole be bold, start cold, you know. I I'm like, but once we start moving and then and then we've got to stop three or four times on the trails. They take one layer off after another after another. speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah. speaker-0: And you're right. And then we get to camp and they're finally like and then I'm like, Okay, this is why you brought that stuff is because now we're just sitting here talking, drinking some coffee or, you know, just enjoying the view. And now I'm like, I'm so glad I brought the stuff the stuff that I brought. So speaker-1: Well, and and and a lot of times if they're not equipped, you know, what you do what they do is get in a sleeping bag. Yeah. Okay. ⁓ yeah. You know, you get w where get where you're going and you don't have enough to keep you warm, you get in the sleeping bag. So you know and then and then maybe you cook in the tent, maybe you don't, okay. I mean yeah. You know, that's kind of frowned upon. Okay. But nevertheless, I've I I I've done a lot of times, okay? Yeah. All right. So maybe you even got down the T shirt in the tent. Okay. Okay. ⁓ Anyway, you don't want to asphyxiate yourself, but nevertheless. Or burn the tent down. Or burn the tent down. speaker-0: No, exactly. Going into what w since we're talking about like people enjoying the gear and stuff like that that they have where they don't enjoy it or enjoy it, ⁓ do you have any moments like a customer story that hit really hard, like a great customer review that just really sometimes you you know, as as a small brand, ⁓ it's our emotional ⁓ it's it's it's like your baby, right? And so when someone says something good about your kid, you get super excited. about it. So if you have a something, a customer review or something that was like, Man, whether you save their life or something like that, that kind of thing. speaker-1: Well, I don't think I've gone that far. I I I have, you know, I asked customers, you know, if they like it to maybe go on Reddit and put something on there. So they're yeah. You know, and then I get somebody writing me something and they say, Hey, we saw this on Reddit, okay? Yeah. And you know, and da da da da da da to go into that. but you know, and people ⁓ you know, like like ⁓ the vapor radiation. Barrier. I've had a couple write ups. You know, one one gentleman, well, actually ⁓ the you know, one of them I I shipped to ⁓ Switzerland. And he he did a write-up on Reddit, but also on a German outdoor forum, he did a write up about it. And there's the ⁓ gentleman that was a tester in Alaska for ⁓ backpacker, he did a write up on Reddit as well. So those are all those are all very, very good and very very positive things. Now we've shipped g gear. I mentioned Switzerland there, but we've yeah. We we've sent gear to Switzerland, to Austria, to Scotland, to ⁓ to England or the other part of the UK, ⁓ to Australia, and even Malaysia. That was probably I mean, you don't think of Malaysia being someplace ⁓ But but but he was doing it quite a few trips. Okay, so so you know, we've ship gear around the world, okay. So ⁓ speaker-0: I think that's neat to hear when you get to send your stuff to other parts of the world, you know, and you you the world is so much smaller than we think it is. ⁓ yeah. I I just got back from Italy. This is a complete side story, but I got just got back from Italy from our 20th wedding anniversary. And I'm at a train station, we're waiting for a train, and we see an American couple and we start talking to them and I'm like, Hey, are you from Atlanta? ⁓ like just out of the blue and We're like, ⁓ where are you from? And they're like, ⁓ they're from this town. And then I'm like, wait a second, I'm from that same town. We both we live a mile from each other here in Atlanta in a small subdivision area. And I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, we've probably run into each other all the time. And so it's so cool when you get to to send your stuff, your product off around the world, and you connect with all these different people, especially because you're making your heart and soul. is in it and and stuff like that. I don't think people appreciate it as much. ⁓ but then it also comes with those downsides too, because you're putting so much effort into it. ⁓ it can be daunting sometimes. speaker-1: Yeah. Shipping overseas, ⁓ the the the sh the shipping costs, you know, ⁓ make it a little more complicated. Okay. It's not as easy as is ⁓ as shipping here in the States. But nevertheless, yeah we can deal with that. Okay, we can deal with that. Yeah. speaker-0: Okay, so kind of just winding down ⁓ into the last like couple of questions, like what does success look like for you now? ⁓ or has it changed from the beginning? Like do you see a growth or where do you see yourself in the next, you know, few years? speaker-1: Yeah, sure, sure. Well, I've ⁓ you know, based on our you know where we originally thought what we wanted to do, yeah. I I I I think we've been successful so far. Yeah, but you know, I've got a lot more ideas and plans and things that I think ⁓ things that we can do. Okay, and and so Suc success is kind of like ⁓ you know, the carrot in front of the donkey, you keep chasing this thing. Okay. You know, but yet yet what you you wanna have is a feeling of accomplishment and a feeling that that you're you're you're you're you're making something that has value and other people see that it has value. It's not just we're not just making these to make ⁓ okay? Yeah. Yeah, you know, got a little hard and soul winning in this thing. I mean, I wouldn't come back and do this again if it was just a money thing. It's sure not a money thing. That's that's yeah. Okay. So, you know, it's ⁓ it's ⁓ you know, it's a hard and soul thing, it really is. Okay. So anyway, so but I'm comfortable, but yeah, I'm anxious from a standpoint that I want to get some more of these things done. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so anyway, maybe. Maybe maybe I get a partner that has a lot of money here and then we'll go you know, who knows? Somebody maybe listen to this and want wants to say, Okay, let's take this thing big time. I don't know. ⁓ yeah. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? Well the world's a funny place. speaker-0: Well what you just said was really good. It's like you're speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: your heart and soul is into it. And then you you had said something just sparked something ⁓ in me as a s more of a statement that ⁓ like when I talk to people that create food, you're putting nutrition into somebody, right? And when you're creating something like a sleeping bag or quilt, part of it is you're helping someone survive, you know, in a lot of right. And you have this great accomplishment of, hey, this person didn't die because I made a good product. speaker-1: That's a good way to look at it. Yeah. I haven't quite taken it to that extreme. Okay. ⁓ speaker-0: That's your slogan. By us, we won't kill you. So speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ that's good though. That's good. speaker-0: Okay. So I guess w my last question before I go into our little lightning round where I ask you a few little random questions that I didn't send you that are more just like one word or two word answers, ⁓ is what advice would you give to someone who's on the trailhead at the beginning of their business, who's starting something out? What's one piece of advice you could give to them? speaker-1: Yeah, well number one is don't quit your day job. Okay. Yeah. And number two is get your wife involved because that helps in multiple ways. Okay. Okay. So and don't dis get discouraged either. Yeah. Okay. You know, it's easy to get discouraged. Y you know, you don't do you gotta be a positive person to do this kind of thing. Okay. And if you're not positive, if something's wrong all the time or you're a negative person, just don't even go there. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's good. ⁓ staying positive is probably the hardest part 'cause it's an emotional roller coaster if you wake up and you're like, ⁓ why am I doing this? And then you get ⁓ story and you're just speaker-1: something wrong and you gotta gotta fix it. You gotta make something over. Okay. Yeah. You know, things like that. You say, ⁓ I just spent how many hours here and I gotta you know, whatever. So Yeah. speaker-0: Have you ever had ⁓ this just random, but like have you ever had a where you're making a quilt or and you're, you know, dead tired and next thing you know, you're like, ⁓ I just made it inside out or upside down or raffles in wrong. speaker-1: Yeah, like that can happen, but usually usually it's like anything, it's always fixable. Yeah. Okay. Normally it's fixable. Sometimes I mean it'll take time. It's time. worst case is if you've got something so so much into it and it's so far along, there's some things that are very difficult to fix. Okay. And then you may have to do it over again. Okay. But nevertheless, ⁓ you know, you're if you're reasonably careful, you don't run into that. Okay. You may forget something. Okay. But that's that's easy to go back and do something that you forgot or something. But yeah. But normally normally we don't have too many ⁓ my gosh kind of issues. Okay. So ⁓ we're we're careful. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ cool. Yeah. No well and and and and that's because ⁓ you know they're you know we're invested, okay? Yeah. If were a guy off the street doing this stuff, you wouldn't be quite as invested and maybe you wouldn't take quite as much care and maybe you'd have more problems. Okay? Yeah. So Yeah. You're on auto. speaker-0: I know that sometimes I've I've gone through I've been dead tired and and editing trying to do something and then I get halfway through an edit and I I completely am editing in the wrong resolution or something and I'm like ⁓ so I've gotta redo it. I can I can go back and tweak it, but it might be a bit of a process, you know. So speaker-1: Right, right. But you're better off to get a nice sleep and then go back rather than try to do it right right then because you need to be a little more fresh because once you start down the the spiral spiral it's not good. Okay. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. That's great. Well, awesome. I mean, seriously, thank you ⁓ so much. I mean, Gary, I learned a ton. ⁓ I think people have learned a lot about Griffin Gear and just your story. ⁓ I know if they follow you on on your socials and stuff like that, I know you're gonna be coming out with some story stuff. ⁓ there's a good video on your website too that just tells the story of your brand and stuff like that. So if people are looking for Griffin Gear, where can they find you online and on social media? speaker-1: ⁓ well on ⁓ online ⁓ you know our website is just griffingear.com. Okay. Okay. Now Griffin, you know, it's it's ⁓ it's an old world kind of spelling. It's G R Y P H O N. Okay. It's so the G R Y, the Y has an I sound and the P H has an F sound. Okay. So you know. So ⁓ Griffin Gear dot com. And ⁓ you know, we we have Griffin Gear on Instagram and ⁓ And and we have some things on Facebook too as well. So so ⁓ and and and if you can write me Gary at GriffinGear dot com or info at GriffinGear dot com. Okay. you can ⁓ you can reach me directly. Okay. So and and perfect. I I see ⁓ both. Okay. I mean I mean info doesn't go to some somebody that I don't know. Okay. And then has to be relayed to me. It goes to me. Okay. So I see it all. speaker-0: All right. Awesome. Okay. So I'm a we're going to our rapid fire round this is to get to know you a little bit real quick, a few random questions. ⁓ so they're basically like one two word answers, maybe a small sentence or two, but nothing too in depth. But first question I love asking people is what's your favorite national park? speaker-1: ⁓ gee. Hmm. Well, you know, I've d I've had some friends that went to Glacier and I was really impressed with the the the pictures that they brought back. So so I would I I you know, I don't don't know whether I ever get to go there or not. But I but I I would like to go there, but I also did rim to rim in the Grand Canyon. So so ⁓ that ⁓ that's really impressive. Yeah as well. I mean yeah the the the picture of the Grand Canyon does not do it justice. Okay. Yeah you really have to see it. Okay. So anyway, okay. speaker-0: put rim to rim Grand Canyon. ⁓ all right. Next thing is coffee or electrolyte drinks when you're on the trail. Which one do you like better? speaker-1: ⁓ Or water. And and and sometimes I have coffee in the evening. Electrolytes. I I have taken a few of those electrolyte pills along. Okay. You know, but you know, hey, electrolytes something new. Okay. I mean, I hike for years without worrying about electrolytes, right? Yeah. Okay. And somebody decided, ⁓ we should sell electrolytes. speaker-0: Water guy. Yes. That's good marketing. speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. speaker-0: ⁓ all right, next thing is solo hike or a crew mission. Which do you prefer? speaker-1: Solo or what? speaker-0: Solo or with a group. speaker-1: ⁓ small groups, small groups. I mean, you know, four people, three, four people. Yeah. big groups are kind of awkward. ⁓ I've been on a few big groups and I've taken people, larger groups, to places like West Virginia and some of the wilderness areas and things like that. ⁓ those are okay. Yeah. But ⁓ it's a little bit more ⁓ it's a little you know, the three, four people are are are are nice. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: Agree. Once you start going really big, then you you get bogged down with there's something and somebody falls. speaker-1: Somebody falls in the stream and you gotta we we've had that in the w it it's snow underground and they fall in the stream, okay? Gosh. ⁓ yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ my god All right. Next next question is, this is a this is always an interesting one, is what's your favorite trail snack and what's your worst trail snack you've ever tried? speaker-1: ⁓ gee, that's ⁓ that's boy you're telling these ⁓ snail trail snacks y you know anything that ⁓ obviously you're looking for energy. So candy bars are candy bars are just you know, okay. And and some of this trail mix where they put the peanuts and ⁓ and the ⁓ and Ms and all that into Yeah. Those are okay. But yeah, quite honestly I like Snickers bar Snicker bars, okay. speaker-0: I thought you were gonna say when you say candy bar, I was like, okay, Snickers bars is like one of those go-tos because it's literally like a a solidified trail, trail mix. speaker-1: ⁓ it is. Yeah. ⁓ and and you know there are ⁓ some of these bars too. There's ⁓ what what's the name of them? ⁓ name name the bars. Kind, kind. speaker-0: ⁓ Kine bars, yeah. ⁓ my gosh, yeah, those are my wife's favorite. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, those are good. I like those too. Okay, the ones with almonds in them and some other things. Those those are good. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know any I don't take bad stuff, so I don't know any bad stuff. speaker-0: I don't All right, if you could if you could work with any other brand on a new piece of gear, what would it be? Or what brand would it be? If you could collab with another brand. speaker-1: ⁓ well. You want me to actually name names? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, go for it. speaker-1: ⁓ okay, okay. Well, you know, I I got a got a patent on the tents from I I talked to you about this on a on the side. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That incorporates some of the things ⁓ that we were talking about on the vapor radiation barrier. Yeah. and and I ⁓ I sent a letter to Henry's Henry Shires at ⁓ Tarp Tent, you know? Yeah. Because I I was interested if because You know, I got enough on my plate here making this this down gear and yeah and make making tents. You know, you can't shotgun this stuff because you lose your s you you lose your focus, okay? Yeah. So I thought, you know, he might be a guy to work with on something like this. Yeah. But then he he decided that ⁓ that wasn't for him. So yeah. ⁓ that's my story. Okay. Now now I I I think of I've got another company in mind I might approach on this. ⁓ at the end of the day, we could do it. Yeah. ⁓ at some point, but I don't think we have the the resources at this point to do that. Okay. But ⁓ I've got a lot of good ideas on it. And like I said, ⁓ have a patent on it and it's something that ⁓ we should take advantage of. Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ whoever's listening, if you're listening or watching this and you have a company, reach out to Gary, he ⁓ he gave you his email, so go for it. You never know what will have he's got a pendant on too. I and it's speaker-1: License somebody license somebody, they can make it for them and make it for us. Okay. speaker-0: That's awesome. All right. I got two more questions for you. ⁓ one is what's your biggest your biggest, your your biggest splurge you've ever made for your business so far? speaker-1: Biggest one. speaker-0: splurge, biggest kind of ⁓ ticket item you've ever bought for your your business. speaker-1: ⁓ that that ⁓ website, the first website That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That was ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. It is a pa it is a pain, isn't it? Because I know just from website development, a friend who does it, you know, years ago it would cost so much money and now you can literally Yeah. Okay. And now you can find somebody to help you with it or even do it your own if you really want. Yeah, yeah. It's still hard, but for fifty bucks a month you can have a a insane. So speaker-1: Thousands. I'm talking thousands. Yeah. Now when you order things like down and f fabric and things like that, yeah you you you know, that's a chunk of change too. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, you you have to be but of course, you know, well, you have to be prepared to do it. Okay. Yeah. But the website was the b biggest one for the you know, at that time. So Yeah. All right. speaker-0: Lynn, last question. This is always a a fun one is what's one outdoor skill you still kind of suck at? speaker-1: ⁓ Hm. That's ⁓ interesting. Interesting. I don't know. I don't know. I'm pretty good at most of them. You know. speaker-0: You've got a lot of experience, I know, just from the stories you told me and stuff like that. So speaker-1: I had a little a little ⁓ while to hone my ⁓ my skills, okay. Yeah. ⁓ you know you you know the one that everybody struggles with though to some degree is is is rainy weather. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, living in rainy weather when it rains for several days in a row. You know, it's it's it it takes certain skill to deal with it and a certain attitude to also, you know, and the thing of it is the solutions are not good. There's no really good solution. And you know, I was talking about the the thin This the skinny tubes. Yeah. Okay. The other thing is Gore-Tex. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Now, you know, waterproof, breathable, that term. Maybe Gore-Tex. ⁓ let me just be general about it. Say waterproof, breathable. Yeah. It's usually not. Okay. It's probably it's usually waterproof and not breathable. Yeah. Or or it or it leaks or whatever. But speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Probably the best solution is completely waterproof. Okay. And have something completely waterproof, even though you might sweat on the inside, you might get damp on the inside. At least you don't have the rain coming through. Okay. Because that's pretty much the way waterproof breathable works anyway. Yeah. Okay. But then it's not good when you really want breathable. See, waterproof breathable is not very good either way. Okay. All right. So you're better off having having something that's completely waterproof and something that's completely breathable and being able to to switch back and forth and and usually the ⁓ you know it's like ⁓ yeah well but anyway, th the the that's probably the big one of the biggest challenges for an outdoors person, okay? I mean, yeah, you got the gear, you got your stove, you got whatever, you got a tent, you got all that and you can you can set that up and ⁓ all you know, and at ⁓ Things like that, but I would say I would say that probably causes people you know. I mean, in my in my mind caused me more grief than anything else, okay? Yeah. speaker-0: So yeah, you really wanna wanna be out there. speaker-1: And my solution was just ⁓ you know, treat treat it as if you get waterproof, breathable, it's gonna be waterproof. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And if you want something that is breathable, you you it's something else. All right. Yeah. Because waterproof breathable is not really breathable. speaker-0: That's correct. All right. Awesome. Well, Gary, thank you so much for all the insight. I I really appreciate it. And ⁓ everybody who is listening, ⁓ thank you so much for listening. And we can't wait to have our next guest on. But Gary, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it and look forward to ⁓ seeing you on the trail. Thanks so much. speaker-1: Poison was mine. ⁓ Bashu was mine. I enjoyed the chat, okay? We'll do it again. speaker-0: Awesome. Thank you, Yuri. speaker-1: Bye, take care. Bye now.